Mini 574: Portal Mafia: HUGE SUCCESS

[Patrick]

/confirm

[Patrick]

Mod:

You've spelled my rolename wrong in the first post.

[Patrick]

Vote: Sir Tornado

without any witty comment whatsoever.

[Patrick]

Because placing a forth vote on someone (and keeping it) after 10 posts of actual game is already scummy in of itself (considering that 7 votes ends the day).

A fourth vote with 7 to lynch doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I couldn't see lynch-3 leading to an accidental lynch in this game. What do you mean by, "10 posts of actual game"? Nothing had actually happened, it was all random votes as far as I could tell.

Not finding that somewhat suspicious is scummier still.

Why?

[Patrick]

FoS: Flameaxe and M&M.

What's the thinking behind this pair of FoSes?

[Patrick]

A "oops, he got lynched" situation this early in the game is terrible for the town.

Yes it would be. Point is, I don't see this realistically happening. I don't think I could point to a single mini game where an early lynch-3 has let to an accidental speedlynch.

Because if you're not thinking pro-town, you won't act pro-town. And in such case, you may as well be mafia.

It could mean that person just has a different opinion to you on the early lynch-3 vote. I suppose it just seems odd to me to vote a person who doesn't buy it as a scumtell, rather than the person who dropped the (in your opinion) scumtell in the first place.

[Patrick]

Hey guys, I'm here and will catch up with what's going on tomorrow after some sleep, as it's 4 am now. On skimming the last post though, one thing I'm puzzled about is why Miztef sees a connection between Tornado and populartajo.

although very petty, I felt no need to mention any of tornado's content thus far, and for someone to do so makes me believe there is a connection between the 2.

Why? Tornado hasn't posted any content so far, so it seems normal to poke him, since we're on a tight schedule.

[Patrick]

Mod

: Please prod jack_dillon if you haven't already under the 72 hour rule.

I think M-M is starting to overdo the 4th vote is scummy thing. I can see him using it as a way to kick things off even if I don't agree with it, but he hasn't talked about anything else. And again, unless there's any practical chance whatsoever of it leading to a speedlynch, I don't see how a 4th vote on a wagon made of random votes can be a danger.

This YWN wagon has a few worthwhile points, probably the best one made by Incognito in post 90: YWN immediately jumping in like that didn't look very scumhunty.

Secondly, because your possible reactions to me waiting for you posting are more predictable than me not waiting for you posting. (Either you'd acknowledge Akonas' vote and be suspicious of him, or you wouldn't acknowledge it and keep voting on me. Frankly, it weilds much more interesting results this way. This is still a game, right?)

I don't understand what interesting reactions you gained by doing it this way instead of waiting for him. By waiting you could have tested his consistency and gotten a sense of what he finds scummy or not. I acknowledge the time points, but it's not as though Incognito posts infrequently.

With that said, I don't like Gorrad's vote for YWN. "What's with all the screaming?" is hardly accurate and just seems like a way of making him sound worse, and what's all this stuff about alts? YWN seems to be an inexperienced player, I doubt he has an alt, unless he's an experienced player faking it, but I can't think of any reason why someone would do that. The fact that he joined in 2006 doesn't make him an alt.

YWN made two statements that were both centers of arguments (First pro-him, second anti-me) and contradictory. He then admits to falsehood. Given their contexts, I don't think either were jokes, but, as he stated, found out lies. Who lies? Scum lie. I can feel the lynch unfold in front of me.

I thought his second statement looked completely non serious. YWN, clarify?

Incognito, how do I read Flameaxe? Why is your current avatar so bad?

I'll keep my originally random vote where it is for now, since Tornado has yet to do anything worthwhile. I'd also like to hear more from Akonas.

[Patrick]

Yeah. We're nearly half way through our allotted time for today, not having posted content at this point is completely unacceptable.

Mod:

Is jack_dillon being replaced according to the prodding/responding rule?

Gorrad, why have you been avoiding the thread since I asked you about your Nightmare vote? From a quick look at your post history, you've been active around the forums.

[Patrick]

I didn't see any questions there, and still don't. Can you clarify? I AM still alive.

The part where I said, "What's all this stuff about alts?" is undeniably a question. You have some reasoning for voting Nightmare based on alts which seems flawed to me and I've explained why, the obvious thing for you to do would be to explain why it's not flawed (or concede that it is).

[Patrick]

I missed that. Post 99 should explain my point. He based one or more argument on lies.

Yes, I saw post 99. I don't understand how he's lied. His second statement where he says, "You've found me, congrats..." seemed like he was pretty obviously joking. Are you claiming that was serious and that he is in fact an alt?

I have no real problem with Incognito's pressure vote on Tornado. I don't see why people are so eager to defend Tornado so quickly.

[Patrick]

Akonas, I think you're misreading Miztef in the first quote. The person he was referring to with negligible content was scotmany12, not Incognito. As for your second quote, does it bother you that I pretty much asked Nightmare the same?

[Patrick]

I'm on dubious internet access at the moment, as a heads up. Hopefully to be solved quickly.

Here's my understanding of the alt business. I get the impression that in Post 75, and then in Post 99, Gorrad is saying that Nightmare lied, by contradicting himself over whether or not he's an alt, and that Gorrad is using that as a reason to be suspicious of Nightmare. I don't like this, because it seems pretty clear to me that in the second quote of post 75, Nightmare is joking around, and his response has confirmed that. I also don't like the way Gorrad is lurking to avoid answering my questions about it, in the context of this game which is speed mafia.

Unvote, Vote: Gorrad

@Akonas, you seem to have based part of a FoS of Miztef for caring about whether or not Nightmare is an alt. Did you read any of the discussion between me and Gorrad, which shows why it's important? Why are you only targetting Miztef with this when both Gorrad and I have made a bigger deal about it than him? I'll reiterate that I don't think Nightmare is an alt.

People need to fucking post, btw.

QFT

[Patrick]

Ok, Miztef, you're saying that the following quote wasn't pretty clearly a joke?

Your Worst Nightmare wrote:

Also, joined in 2006 and 7 game posts? I'm calling alt here.

Well, you found me. Congratulations. Was it worth it? Because despite your violent behavior, the only thing you've managed to break so far is my heart. Maybe you could settle for that, and we'll just call it a day.

The addition of, "the only thing you've managed to break so far is my heart" is what made me think so. At the very least, I think he needed to clarify rather than just assuming it was serious and calling LAL.

Even with the joking, YWN's posts have been convoluted at best, I don't understand what he's saying about a lot of issues.

You've repeated this kind of thing several times now. I haven't found his posts

that

hard to follow or convoluted. Could you point me to parts of his posts that you think are convoluted and explain why those would be more likely to come from scum than town? Thanks.

As for the lurking. There is really no doubt in my mind that Brawl is an acceptable reason for not posting, especially with the addition of his announced absence in the V/LA thread.

I don't know what Brawl is or anything, but I'm assuming from the posts here that it's a video game. If so, then no, I don't think it's a good enough excuse to duck out of answering, with the deadline looming. Further, the lurking I'm pointing to has been over the past few days, at a time when he was clearly posting in other threads, so I don't see how Brawl can be an excuse for that. I felt like he started avoiding the thread as soon as I questioned him about his case on YWN, and when he did give an answer it was fairly unhelpful (just referring me back to post 99, which I'd read already).

Could he be scum pushing a bandwagon? possibly, but my point of view tells me it's just a townie trying to build a case. (with the massive distraction of Brawl looming)

Out of all the players in this game, I'd say yes, Gorrad is top 3 suspicious, which is not enough for a vote from me.

These are not contradictory in the strictest sense, but they give me two different impressions about your feelings on Gorrad.

Who are your top 3 suspicions at the moment, and what is causing you to waver on YWN?

[Patrick]

@Patrick: I have to agree with Miztef on YWN's convulted posts part. I too find myself unable to understand what YWN says at times.

Of the two quotes Miztef gave on this, I thought the first one was YWN making fun of Gorrad, the second was just a welcome of The Jester. I suppose maybe some people find it harder to understand so I won't argue this point any further, but it didn't seem scummy to me.

Akonas:

@Akonas, you seem to have based part of a FoS of Miztef for caring about whether or not Nightmare is an alt. Did you read any of the discussion between me and Gorrad, which shows why it's important? Why are you only targetting Miztef with this when both Gorrad and I have made a bigger deal about it than him? I'll reiterate that I don't think Nightmare is an alt.

Question still stands.

Flameaxe, populartajo: Who do you guys suspect? Who would you be happy to lynch?

[Patrick]

Totally agree. The only thing I dont like about this is that you and Patrick seem to be strangely connected and pretty active lately with this lynch. You could be active townies, but if Gorrard is town then IWGMEOY.

Again?

*Shrug* we've agreed over a few things, but that's hardly a rare occurence in a game of mafia (and last time we played together, Incog and I were sharing the same brain for a while). That on it's own isn't usually good enough evidence to be drawing a connection between two players. (And note that in a post of yours, you stated that you agreed with absolutely everything Incognito and Miztef had said). As for being active, it's absolutely necessary when we have 2 week deadlines.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the way you seem to be throwing suspicion on all the players currently voting Gorrad if Gorrad turns up town, whilst also saying that you'd be happy with a Gorrad lynch. It feels a bit like you're already setting up future lynches.

Basically I agree with a Gorrard lynch. I havent liked for a while and his buddys (Flameaxe and scotmany) seem to have taken a vacation to brawl lands. But, I'd like a VC before, please.

Are you saying you've been suspicious of Gorrad for a while now? I got the impression you've been much more suspicious of YWN. Where did that suspicion go?

[Patrick]

I can kind of agree with Gorrad's suspicion of Akonas. My impression of Akonas, both before and after isolating his posts, is that he's not doing very much at all, not trying to move the game forward or do much scumhunting. He's twice avoided my question to him, and I don't like how he seems to be ignoring much of what's going and has just parked his vote on M-M (Note: Akonas didn't unvote before voting M-M, so his vote is technically on Flameaxe. Not sure if he's realised that or not).

But then again, there's a disappointing number of low contributors in this game.

Jester, who's your top suspect? Who's an acceptable lynch?

[Patrick]

Am I guilty for finding a possible connection? I should add that I agreed with some things posted at that time, it sounded good as many noted, but that doesnt mean they could be tricking me and that I have to believe everything they say.

Huh? I never said you were guilty in that paragraph or even implied it. I said that I don't think you have much basis for forming this connection, and I explained why.

Uncomfortable? Why? Dude, everyone is suspicious by default, some people feel townie others feel scummy, but that doesnt mean they are town or scum 100%. I've said before, the reacters are scummier than the ones who provoke reactions, but if we lynch an innocent reacter then there are big possibilities of finding scum in a provoker. I never said you'd be automatically scum.

You seem to like exagerating. I know you didn't say that any pushers on Gorrad would be

automatically

scum if Gorrad is town. I said that I didn't like the way you seem to be throwing suspicion on all the Gorrad voters; it gave me a small ping on the scumdar.

Where other's have gone. And you can find my Gorrad case in some posts of mine. Are you lazy? So am I.

I am sometimes lazy, but I wouldn't consider my play thus far to be lazy, no. You're mostly following here. I don't know if it makes you scum or not, but it's noted.

Patrick, Incognito, why are you taking my suspicions so serious. Why am I guilty for suspecting you in case any of your targets come up townie tomorrow?

I don't think I've been taking them too seriously. But if someone throws suspicion on you with logic that you disagree with, it's fair enough to point it out right? If anything I think you're the one who's overreacting. I only mildly accused you at most, mainly I wanted to get a better feel for what you're thinking in this game, because at the time, none of your posts were very memorable to me.

[Patrick]

Unvote

. No counterclaim here, and it seems too risky to lynch an uncountered powerole on day 1. Will think about this and decide on a new vote, though I may have to compromise.

[Patrick]

populartajo, I'm not entirely sure how useful this debate is, but I'll respond briefly here because you've said a few things that are wrong.

Im following good cases. You too. And I think Ive given town some new perspectives in some players. If we concentrate in just 3 players out of 12, then if we're wrong with a lynch we can have some relations, interactions, etc.

I haven't really been following cases, I made the case against Gorrad. I still think it was decent, but looking somewhat less likely to be correct with his claim. I agree that we shouldn't focus on only 3 players out of 12, which is why I've been trying to get more people talking.

So you're taking notes about me for following but when I speak my mind you dont like it. Ok, you can disagree with what Im saying but Im not just following and my posts dont seem memorable to you becuase they are about you. Great coincidence.

First sentence is a strawman, I don't have a problem with you voicing your opinions, I just took issue with what you actually said. And note: posts about me are actually more memorable to me, your posts prior to mentioning me were the unmemorable ones.

Overeaction? Not at all. I simply said that we should be looking at some guys if we lynch wrong today and then Incongito and yoursef mildly accused me of it. In this case, the overeaction is simply yours.

Hi. Stating something doesn't make it correct. Explain how I overreacted and why my reaction wasn't normal to you.

Gorrad is off the table for today unless there's a counterclaim. Akonas and tajo are the ones that spring to my mind as possibles, though I'd compromise and go for Flameaxe if necessary (to be fair I'd go for most lynches if the alternative is not lynching). I'll try and decide which to vote after I've had some sleep. Am I right in thinking we've still got over 48 hours to do this? If I'm getting the timezones wrong then please correct me.

[Patrick]

I've been quite suspicious of Akonas, but the thing that makes me second guess it a bit is his asking for replacement, as it might mean his laziness was just being caused by a lack of time. I'd really like tajo to come on and respond to stuff. I'd really like people who haven't given any suspicions yet to do so.

Is that you talking out of your ass, or do you know something about Gorrad we don't? Since you're not even voting for him while saying that... So I believe you really are just talking crap, and therefore you seem too carefree about the subject. mFOS to you.

How did you take that to mean he knows something about Gorrad? I just took it that he was spamming.

[Patrick]

Hi Ether. You got any opinion on the early YWN wagon and the Gorrad wagon/claim?

Having said that, I agree that Ever needs to give his opinions. Gogogo.

Eh, his posts aren't that great but there are several worse offenders to my mind. At least I know who he suspects.

Populartajo, I find it irritating how you seem to be tagging on the, "Hey guys, chill, I wasn't attacking you that hard" disclaimer onto alot of what you say rather than giving a straight answer. We've already established that you weren't saying we had to be absolutely scum. But nevertheless you still worked in the suggestion, and I haven't seen you back it up with anything substantial.

What inconsistency? I dont find any.

This is a silly evasive thing to say coming up to deadline. He's clearly explained what he thinks the inconsistency is in your play. Now, you might not agree with him, and you might have a reason why you say the two situations were different, but it's pretty obvious what he wants explaining, and this answer looks almost deliberately obtuse. I don't know if you're scum or you just have a playstyle that drives me nuts, but I don't like it.

Vote: populartajo

. Who do you think is a good lynch today?

I could go for Ether as well, albeit with some guilt because she's just replaced in. Incognito, have you got any further read on Flameaxe?

[Patrick]

How's what I have done?

*Shrug* I haven't paid that much attention to M-M. I agree that he's been taking the Flameaxe 4 votes thing too far, and that on page 8 it shouldn't be a real factor at all. Haven't seen anything else notable from him, and he has at least weighed in on a few other issues. I'd vote him if necessary, but without too much excitement. I can identify with reads being in flux, as I've been feeling rather wishy washy since Gorrad claimed. I'll check your comment on Miztef a bit later, because this background noise at the moment is making it difficult to think straight.

You know, I'll have settled into perfectly readable behavior by Day 2.

Heh.

Incognito, Ever refers to scotmany12.

[Patrick]

Miztef, did you isolate all of Akonas's posts?

Miztef is a bit problematic case for me. I have played with him before, and he contradicted the hell out of himself then (he was town), so I am giving him a lot of benefit of doubt here.

Similar issues here. He's tweaked my gut all game, because he seems like he's trying hard to fit in and buddying up a little, and he does seem to contradict himself a bit, but he gave me the exact same feeling in Communique Mafia and he was a townie there. I might look for games where he was scum if I get time, but no promises.

[Patrick]

Hi guys. My internet at home is down, hopefully not for long, but it's apparently an AOL problem, so can't be sure. I'm typing this from the library, and I'm aware that this header makes me sound just like Ether.

(This internet is terribly slow).

Reading through what I've missed, I'm starting to find all the current candidates less appealing. Ether has more or less made up for Akonas already, and has taken away any desire I had to lynch her.

The tajo part of this post:

Answer to what? Really, ask me any questions (or quote them) and Ill give you an answer.
And it isnt a disclaimer. Its just simple, why are you guys suspecting me if the only thing I did was comment in possible suspicions. What about if we're wrong today? How can we find the truth? Easy, lets suspect the ones who were so in favor of doing the wrong thing.

To the first part: I wasn't pointing to one specific question with that, it just felt like you were repeatedly wheeling out that line. The fact that you only weakly attacked me is irrelevant, I still have the right to interrogate you about it. But if you want two questions: How have I been in any way overreacting? Why in particular am I connected to Incognito? It seems counterintuitive to me. The second part of your post is not really correct, the standard thing to do is not go after people who were wrong, because wrong isn't the same as scummy. Townies are wrong all the time. You

can

go after people who you think are wrong, but you usually need more than just a generic, "they pushed a probable mislynch/definite mislynch".

Why are you basing your suspicions in a conversation and in a current disagreement with another player? I havent seen him asking about this quote of mine. I dont see any inconsestincy and if he wants to ask then let him ask me, Ill be happy to answer.

It's perfectly fine for me to be suspicious of you because of a conversation you've had with someone else. Forgive me for not pulling up posts and things at this point, I'm on limited time here and the internet is very slow, but it can't be that hard to find. Incognito asked you about an inconsistency between how you acted around the YWN wagon and how you acted round the Gorrad one, and your answer was just, "nope, no inconsistency".

WARNING. Theory time;:
Pick one of the followings groups. Big possibility of clearing the group if any of them comes up town. At this moment, and at the rate we're going, I think that we wont lynch a scum today, but lets try to pick the best lynch for today.
Group A : Patrick, Incognito, Miztef
Group B : Flameaxe, Gorrad, Scotmany, maybe Sir Tornado
Group C : M&M, YourWorstNightmare
Group D: Jester and Ether (still dont have a read on them)
You can add this to the current schedule of town or simply ignore it, but I think at this point of the game is a pretty interesting suggestion.

These don't seem justified. I know I'm town, but I'm certainly not assuming the others in my group are town because of it, because neither have acted in such a way that I think would be very unlikely to come from scum. Same for the other groups.

Despite this, I'm starting to think you might just be misguided. One thing that still bothers me is that I have no real clue who you want to lynch, and I had the same feeling last time before you mentioned Gorrad.

M-M still doesn't seem that scummy to me either. I don't see anything else apart from the fact he's overdoing Flameaxe's fourth vote. He's certainly around and making his positions known, which is at least an improvement over previous games I've played with him.

Ether, the meta I'm referring to is day 1 of Communique Mafia, where Miztef was a townie. Just filtering his posts may be enough. The feeling I got from his posts is that he was trying to appease and fit in with people, he contradicted himself alot and his opinions seemed to just change with momentum, which is what I'm picking up from him here. That's typically a scum sign, but having played with him before makes me pause, and I know Miztef gets mislynched alot. Sadly unless my internet sorts itself very quickly, I won't have time to look for a scum meta.

I'm at something of a loss here as to how to vote. I hope I'm back online at home before deadline, but if not, I'll book time in the library tomorrow so I can see what's going on. If anyone has questions to ask me, I'll be on for another 45 minutes or so.

[Patrick]

Hi again, typing from the library, home access still screwed. Still feeling thoroughly uninspired by everything going on here.

M-M has claimed weak doctor, and whilst his breadcrumb doesn't prove anything, I'm not willing to vote an uncountered powerole who I didn't even find very scummy before. I am not counterclaiming him. I'll leave my vote on tajo for now, it could change in the next hour and a half which I have here. Flameaxe or Jester are possible.

[Patrick]

My time here is pretty much up, and I won't be on again before deadline unless the access problem is sorted very quickly. My vote is in an ok place, so I'll leave it where it is. I'm admittedly not wild about it, but I think there's a small case against tajo and I don't really see one against anyone else. Whatever you guys do, don't lynch M-M unless someone counterclaims (I tend to believe him, but if there's a counterclaim I'd say he's obviously the play).

[Patrick]

Just to say, I think the problem has been solved. So I'm here. Recommending tajo claims if he plans on doing so.

[Patrick]

I've just noticed the suggestion that M-M states his target beforehand. I don't think it's a good idea. If M-M is legit, scum could kill him tonight, and then we wouldn't have any idea whether his death was a nightkill or because he protected someone bad. It wouldn't help us.

[Patrick]

Oh wait. I guess that's what M-M is clarifying with the mod. Never mind.

[Patrick]

ABSOLUTELY STANDARD BAH POST COMING UP

Bah! Go town!

[Patrick]

Yay!

This game was looking grim for scum from day 2 onwards. Killing me instead of the claimed doctor was a mistake, especially when I didn't even have a particularly good read on alot of people. I think I might have opened day 2 with Flameaxe pressure, but I hadn't reread overnight, so I can't be sure. I have to assume that The Jester simply sent the kill in whilst neither of his partners were paying attention to the game?

I think the setup favours the town. I can understand the presence of the 4 protown poweroles is meant to be balanced out by the fast deadlines (which certainly did hurt us on day 1), but I'm not sure it does balance out in practice. The game started coming down to process of elimination, and when that happens, the deadlines become much less of an issue. Possibly a mafia roleblocker would have helped in this setup.

For the record, I thought there was a good plan available today even with lynching Guardian. If Guardian was town, Incognito kills Miztef, and Ether roleblocks YWN, and Gorrad investigates Ether. I think this plan accounts for investigation immune and nightkills immune Godfathers, and works as along as Incognito isn't an SK (which was pretty clear he wasn't I thought).

Thanks everyone for the game, and to Glork for modding, even though my part on this was limited.

[Patrick]

I felt sorry for Guardian here. He was basically parachuted into a near impossible position. And in the day 3 situation we had here, the last scum is always going to stick out like a sore thumb.

[Patrick]

Well played by M-M.