Mini 1859: D&D Curse of Strahd Mafia - Game Over

[Pine]

VOTE: Woods

Don't have time to post more. Woods is fine, I'm at home there.

[Pine]

I'm sheeping Shaziro. I have lots of D&D experience, but none with Strahd. If you say the Woods is where the Bad Things are, and the cemetary is where Loot is, let's go there.

Unvote
Vote Cemetary

Hammer.

[Pine]

Huh. And I thought they said you can take the pine out of the woods, but you can't take the woods out of the pine. Haha. Ha....I'll see myself out.

I've got plenty of wood, bb.

[Pine]

A question was brought up to me that was not explained in the rules. I added it to the rules section, but here is the relevant rule:

If someone has an item (and it's uses not depleted) when they die, one of two things happen. If hung, the player may declare another player to leave his belongings to during twilight time. That player will receive any items the lynchee had just before we change to Night Phase. If they were killed during the night, the item(s) will be voted on a new recipient at Quest Selection the next Day Phase. Votes will tracked separately for Quest Selection and Item Receiving during Part One of Day Phase.

If you have any questions about this, let me know.

Shaziro, I'd like to give you the amulet, but do you think you can make the best use of it?

[Pine]

VOTE: Pine

I enjoy special effects.

[Pine]

Okay, because being subtle isn't working, let me be blunt. I looked up the Amulet of St. Markovia. It can only be attuned by clerics and paladins.

I am one of those two.

[Pine]

Yeah, I didn't claim. There's a couple of classes that can use it.

[Pine]

There's not a whole lot to go on yet, we haven't even started voting for a lynch yet. The first round of voting was for a random unknown, up until you pointed us toward the cemetary. This one is also essentially random, except for my partial claim. I don't really like it either, but there you go.

[Pine]

Can we make a decision on the amulet? I'd rather someone else get it than no one.

[Pine]

Unfortunately, there seems to be no special effect to this item (Amulet of Ravenkind) based on my class.

Vote Persivul

Shady character during early stages.

[Pine]

No no, it does something, just not something that's class specific or even all that useful at this time.

[Pine]

I probably won't ever get to use it, at least.

[Pine]

VOTE: Pine

It's my understanding that the item passes on, on a lynch, before the night phase, and so can still be used. The person gets to select where the item goes. Let's kill Pine to see if scum took it for themselves, and if they're town they get to select who gets the item.

VOTE: Dunnstral

You're literally saying "Town helped him get this item, now let's lynch him to see if he is actually town or not." That's terrible, and I can't even fathom how that would ever come from a town mindset.

I could get down with this.

Why is nobody asking me why I'm voting shaz?

Don't care.

I could go for a Dunn lynch, but I'm more inclined to give a vig shoot him, if there is one.

Vigilante, please shoot Dunnstral. We need to resolve the Miller thing eventually, and vig shots are more expendable than lynches.

[Pine]

Yeah, for the record, I didn't "gather up a bunch of votes in a short time," I not only was reluctant to push myself at first (because I didn't want to classclaim), it also took us until a near-deadline decision to get that decision made.

So scumpoints to Dunn for the misrep.

[Pine]

This also feels distinctly different from what I've seen of TownDunn.

[Pine]

lolno

[Pine]

Also pine is really coming at me for my vote

I'm not coming at you because of your vote. I don't give a fairy fart for that. I'm assessing your claim, your behavior, and your meta. There's a difference.

And yeah. This looks a

lot

different from the happy-go-lucky, nigh-insane TownDunn I've seen. This looks calculating and aggressive.

PEdit: I don't see a reason to obfuscate what it does. The amulet recharges a limited-use power to full uses. It isn't likely to be useful to me, but it should be helpful to someone in late game when I'm dead. Choose wisely.

[Pine]

This was important information and deserves to be marked as such:

The amulet recharges a limited-use power to full uses. It isn't likely to be useful to me, but it should be helpful to someone in late game when I'm dead. Choose wisely.

[Pine]

I'm semi-BP anyway. I can self-heal.

[Pine]

@Culted: Let vig deal with Dunn. If there's no vig in game, we can always lynch him tomorrow.

PEdit: No, they didn't. But now scum have to wonder if I was telling the truth and it's not useful to go after me, or whether I'm bluffing. I figure I may be able to absorb a kill this way. I've stuck my neck out this far and painted a target on my back, I may as well confuse them more. Or not! Fuck you, scum.

[Pine]

Shrug. I haven't seen too much scummy yet. I've got a fairly minor "general feel" SR on Persival, but 75% of this game is quiet.

[Pine]

This was important information and deserves to be marked as such:

The amulet recharges a limited-use power to full uses. It isn't likely to be useful to me, but it should be helpful to someone in late game when I'm dead. Choose wisely.

I'm semi-BP anyway. I can self-heal.

You can self-heal.

First, if this is true, town has every reason NOT to claim this. You should WANT scum to target you, thereby wasting a shot. Scum OTOH could claim it to explain why they weren't NK'd, as previously noted.

Second, it would be incredibly unfair to scum for a townie to have unlimited self-heals. This would likely be a 1X or at most 2X power. You claim the amulet recharges a limited-use power to full uses. Yet, you say that it isn't likely to be useful to you.

Third, rules say that mafia have daytalk. Pine said he found info on Amulet of St. Markovia. I tried googling it but didn't find anything. If Pine flips scum, then one of the people with flavor knowledge (shaz or jason, IMO shaz) is likely scum as well and fed him info in the scum chat.

VOTE: Pine

You're right. Ordinarily, Town would have no reason to declare themselves BP. I, however, am not BP. It's complicated. Healing myself isn't a guarantee, as my role PM suggests that there are conditions and abilities which could stack to defeat it. It's also limited use. You said unlimited, not me. That's why I said it is "unlikely" I would get to use the amulet, as it would necessitate me surviving long enough to need recharging.

Also, I can direct the healing at someone else instead of me, which is why I feel it is beneficial to deploy some anti-scum WIFOM about how the power works and who I'll be targeting. It's not just a scum tool, it's just rare that Town is in the position of having more information and needing to act unpredictably. I've already put so much of myself out there that I felt it necessary to dodge and weave a bit.

Further, here's a link. I found it on my very first Google attempt, using the terms Strahd and amulet, because I couldn't recall the name that Shaziro said. Your Google-fu is

weak

.

It doesn't quite say what it does, though.

I'm reading it as saying that if you have a 1X power and use it, this amulet would give you 1X back.

It also would give 2 back to a 2x power, or 3 back to a 3x power, etc. Don't misrep what I said, I said that it recharges a single power to full.

I am extremely happy with my Persival vote. He is WAY too interested in getting an empowered PR lynched, because he's afraid he can't get me killed at night.

I agree with this 100%. I don't agree with lynching Pine though because if we do, he gets to pick who the item goes to. If he dies at night, we get to vote on it.

Lynching scum outweighs the benefit of any item. We don't know that we have a vig.

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm willing to at least wait through N1 to take Pine out.

----------------

@Pine: If we lynch you, who would you give the item to?

Shaziro. He's my strongest Townread. He didn't have to give us the information that led to finding the amulet, and he didn't have to champion my softclaim when we got it. Indeed, I find it likely he would have received it by vote if I hadn't spoken up. I don't see scum motivations for those things. Other candidates are Kuror0 or SlySly, I get Town vibes from them.

[Pine]

He's a Miller claim. Proper protocol is a vig shot. If he's still alive tomorrow, I'm down to lynch him.

[Pine]

No, that he specifically said he looked up the Amulet of St. Markovia, but now claims he couldn't remember the name.

Okay, because being subtle isn't working, let me be blunt.

I looked up the Amulet of St. Markovia.

It can only be attuned by clerics and paladins.

I am one of those two.

Oh. Yeah, that is a problem. Pine, care to explain?

They're not in conflict. I looked it up on impulse, found it immediately, then back-tracked to Shaziro to get the name of it. This isn't complicated. Your allegation was that you couldn't find it on Google. I did. End of story. You're quibbling over awkward phrasing, not cogdis or whatever.

[Pine]

The reddit article I linked to simply calls it "the amulet." I started to post, wanted to be specific, so I checked Shaziro's ISO to find the spelling of Markovia.

[Pine]

Persival is where your vote should be.

[Pine]

(2) Persivul - drealmerz7, Pine

Dreal - voting with the person who he finds all kinds of scummy, but says we shouldn't lynch.

In fairness, he voted for you first, I voted second.

This is the kind of bullshit, scummy argument that I initially voted Persivul for, and the predatory way he's crafted his argument against me confirms that read in my book.

[Pine]

Yeah, generally bullshit = shady.

My approach to this has been entirely consistent. Natural evolution of reads over the course of D1 is not inconsistency.

[Pine]

Your question was stupid.

You asked me how I thought I was being subtle...I didn't hardclaim right away, I was trying to suggest that I could use it better rather than coming right out with it, I didn't grab for it with both hands, what do you want?

What the fuck is with scummers these days asking dumb questions? Ask me about my motivations, or about factual stuff. Asking hindsight interpretive questions like that is just stupid. It's not incisive, or informative, or helpful. It's how you fake scumhunting.

FoS Jason

[Pine]

It was badly played, but that doesn't negate the attempt. I said I was trying to be subtle, not that I was successful. The bungled attempt at subtlety directly led to my increasingly hard claim.

Again, commenting on process rather than facts or interpretation of facts is how you pretend to scumhunt, which is what I'm getting from you. Scum like to stomp their feet and demand increasingly hair-splitting answers to inane questions, which is what you're doing.

Ask me a question that isn't just veiled shade, and I'll answer it.

[Pine]

I'm writing a final paper. You'll get it, but probably not until Thursday. I'm done with the semester Thursday.

Short answer is this:
TRs - Shaziro, Creature, kuror0, maybe SlySly, maybe culted
SRs - Persivul, Jason

Not all reads are equal, and I feel like I'm forgetting some. Longer post Thursday.

[Pine]

That's not the objective of that question, though. You're asking "How is this subtle?" That's not an alignment-indicative thing. It's an "Ah crap that attempt at subtlety didn't work, I'd better just come out with it" thing. You can't reframe the narrative of your question when called on it. If you'd owned the fact that your line of questioning was shitty and unproductive, I'd give you Towncred, but instead you're making excuses. Again, your side of this conversation is an effort to mimic scumhunting.

[Pine]

VOTE: Vote Jason Wazza

I'd like to see this happen.

[Pine]

No, you're not trying to "understand thinking". "Understanding thinking" would be asking why I decided to softclaim in the first place, not critiquing my execution. That's the real difference - you're asking "Why'd you do it that way?" instead of "Why'd you do it?" The latter is investigative. The former is a scummy imitation.

[Pine]

I don't see Pine claiming semi-BP as scum.

Why not? What are the town motivations for the claim?

I've given my reasons.

What are the scum motivations? Who would I be protecting myself from?

[Pine]

Asking what the Town motivation for such an action is without considering scum motivations is both classic strawman argument and false dichotomy btw. You're inventing a one-sided argument that you can defeat in detail without regard to other implications, and you're also creating a Town/not Town dichotomy which isn't real. You're failing to consider the whole range of options. In addition to Town/Scum, there's also NAI, human error, Scum-pretending-Town, Town misreading the situation, and half a dozen interpretive variants.

There's no real reason for that claim as scum, unless I'm scum trying to look like a Town error. Doesn't stand up to Occam.

[Pine]

Think: What does the semi-BP claim get me?

That's a much more incisive question.

Jason, this is qhy your questions were bullshit. They don't speak to motive or reasoning, they spoke to process and method under the guise of mindset, while not actually providing either. The initial softclaim was an

error

, one which I shouldn't have made regardless of alignment. I'm just trying to clean up my mess and not lose Town a PR at this point.

PEdit: Bullshit. The reason is to not GET night killed. If I wanted to explain after the fact, I'd claim later, not needlessly complicate things now.

[Pine]

Pine, why are you townreading kuror?

It's pretty weak. Mostly a general read on his attitude and his apparent motivation to gamesolve.

PEdit: I'm not misrepping you, I don't think it's valid. Why the fuck would I do that?

[Pine]

Scum motivation has not been

fairly

considered, from my perspective. I find your reasoning to be utter nonsense that does not hold up to Occam, nor does it actually provide the protection you're talking about. Scum just doesn't do that.

The absence of an adverb does not misrepresentation make.

[Pine]

Yeah, it was an error. AllI can do is make the best of a bad situation.

Putting out a BP claim hopefully redirects the kill away from me, or if they don't believe it, onto me to be blocked.

The fact that you're ignoring all this shit and tunnelling super hard is making me think you're Town after all, and that's kind of super depressing.

Considering replacing out.

PEdit: I don't really agree with the scumminess of kuror0's case, but meh. I don't necessarily see the case on drealmerz. What's your thoughts on Jason? He looks more motivated to

appear

active than actually

being

productive.

PEdit2: Shut up, Creature. Analyzing anti-scum WIFOM is anti-Town.

[Pine]

Eh dunno. I'm coming around to a Town opinion on you, so it needs more thought. I don't have the time right now.

[Pine]

Long time, Andrius.

[Pine]

@Shaziro - As far as I know, Persivul and I have never played together, so B is a no.

[Pine]

I'm quiet right now because I've been drinking...which si good for the game where it's manadtroy, but not good here

sshhhhhhh

kinda hate this game too

[Pine]

but srsly fuck percival

[Pine]

Okay.

VOTE: Persivul

I prefer this one. While I can see a possible Town perspective for Jason, I don't see one for the manipulating and bullying attitude Persivul has displayed.

[Pine]

Yes, how clever of us to coordinate right out in the open, when we have daychat.

[Pine]

Yes, how clever of us to coordinate right out in the open, when we have daychat.

Point being that the nature of the attack - AtE - appears coordinated.

Bullyin

g and

arrogance

coming out like that seems like more than coincidence.

Neither of those are AtE. If I'd said "Persivul is being mean to me!" it would be AtE. Both of those are behaviors. You're exhibiting unwarranted confidence not in line with being in the uninformed minority, coupled with disdain for those who disagree - that's arrogance. You are also attacking those who disagree with you and intimidating them into doing what you say, rather than convincing them - that's bullying behavior. There's a difference between schoolyard give-me-your-lunch-money bullying and argumentive bullying, you're doing the latter.

[Pine]

I really dislike my options. The case on drealmerz looks solid, but everyone else that I suspect is on the wagon. I think I need to review my reads again and consider my objectivity. I don't think I'm likely to reverse on Jason, there's a lot of incongruity to his actions, but I could maybe see Persivul as tunneling Town? The case on kuror0 is starting to develop traction too, I like a lot of SlySly's reasoning and have generally TRed culted. My stream of consciousness suggests that kuror0 may be the right compromise here.

Anyone else agree?

VOTE: Kuror0

[Pine]

I am also perfectly happy with a Jason wagon, but we need to stop changing horses mid-stream.

VOTE: Jason

[Pine]

Day One Deadline is [/color]

(expired on 2016-12-16 19:00:00)

This isn't a time to be lazy. Jason's hoping that deadline saves him.

[Pine]

I have a feeling that a good portion of the scum team is just laying low and waiting for deadline.

[Pine]

VOTE: Vistani Camp

My healing can also be used during the day. Hell, if I'm not likely to survive long, I may as well use it while I can.

[Pine]

Maybe if I say it bold people will read it.

I have the ability to heal people in day phase too.

The Vistani camp isn't a big threat to our numbers. Let's take the risk to get loot.

[Pine]

OK.
VOTE: Vistani

Who did you target last night?

p-edit: Above is at pine. @Dunn - not reading the game I see. This is old news.

I targeted Shaziro. I figured scum would be too pussy to go for me when I was a claimed self-healer.

[Pine]

I targeted Shaziro. I figured scum would be too pussy to go for me when I was a claimed self-healer.

Why did you think scum would target Shaziro?

Flavor knowledge. Besides, he's my strongest TR, and not heavily suspected. I don't know who scum would target, but he'd be in the pool.

[Pine]

Whoa, wait.

I forgot about the Miller claim.

I have a hard time believing we have a Miller AND a Traitor.

Intent to vote Dunn.

[Pine]

Explain why you think miller and traitor are unlikely together

They're both negative utility for Town, and both serve similar functions.

[Pine]

I reread Shaziro's flavor interpretation, and have decided to trust him. The best risk/reward seems to be Kresk.

[Pine]

VOTE: Kresk

[Pine]

VOTE: Pine

Scum are too pussy to shoot at me, and I am already entrusted some of the Town's power. Shaziro is an acceptable choice too, but I'd be a safe place for it too.

[Pine]

Cool story, but you're probably scum, so shut the fuck up.

[Pine]

Alright, my opinions.

Pine should

NOT

get the item. If he's town, that paints an even bigger target on him. If he's scum, now scum definitely have two items, as opposed to only the possibility if it's another player.

culted is a strong town player, which makes him a likely NK target also. Considering we've had a Bodyguard flip, it's probably not the wisest decision to give it to him either.

There's no way I'm giving it to Dunn with a miller claim.

I think Shaziro, slysly, and Andrius are my top three picks for where the item should go today.

Okay, this makes sense.

VOTE: Shaziro

I don't really trust culted.

[Pine]

Not comfortable being on the same item wagon as Dunn. At this point I don't really know who's Town, so screw you all.

VOTE: Pine

[Pine]

FULL DISCLOSURE:

I received a message from someone overnight.

They basically told me that they have a similar role to Jason's but stronger and more.
Said they hope I'm a True Friend.
Capitalized letters were theirs.

While I appreciate the vote of confidence messaging me, I can't help shake the fact that this is all sorts of troublesome.

Do you know who the sender was?

[Pine]

Well, given that Jason and I are both protective roles, and I'm not the one who sent you the message, I'm calling bullshit on them.

[Pine]

VOTE: Dunnstral

Reasons previously stated.

[Pine]

Wait, Pine claimed to know what the Burgomaster's thingy did? Where? The lore of which of the two items?

No. I didn't.

I'm not settling for anyone but Dunnstral today. He's scummed it up really hard for two days now, and I don't think Miller and Traitor together makes sense. I've seen (and perpetrated) successful Miller fakeclaims, but this one backfired.

[Pine]

The special thing I thought it might do, and still think it might do, is that if a Cleric gets a hold of it, it might give them a 1 shot bulletproof against Strahd or his minions along with the other ability.

Unless there was a hidden effect, I didn't get notification of that.

For what it's worth, I am the cleric.

I don't have a problem with drealmerz.

I want Dunnstral's blood.

[Pine]

I don't have a problem with drealmerz.

scum claim


Three protective roles? Not even suspicious/asking for more info from drealmerz?

Where are you getting three protective roles?

[Pine]

Ugh, I'm mixing up my games.

Yeah, drealmerz is also a good lynch.

Drealmerz, full claim please.

[Pine]

No no, fuck off. You claimed a protective role, despite one other flipped and one other claimed, all while demonstrating a completely separate communication power.

Claim or get out.

VOTE: Drealmerz

[Pine]

So you're denying telling Andrius that you were a protective role?

[Pine]

Yes, I can read. What Andrius is saying and what you're saying don't match up.

So is he a liar, are you a liar, or are you just dragging your feet fullclaiming at L-1?

[Pine]

Shaziro, don't get comfy with the notion that all Town roles have an archetype with them. Mine is simply given as 'Cleric.'

That said, there are a lot of inconsistencies with what drealmerz is saying, and the massive amount of AtE he's throwing out screams scum to me

[Pine]

Yeah, I agree that's how it should have been designed, and it's how I'd have written the role PM, but it wasn't. It just says that I am the Cleric of the Adventurers, and that my Cure Wounds spell will be helpful. It gives a few more details about how it works, and details the lesser 1-shot I have, but none of the flavor details I'd have liked.

[Pine]

A Pelorite cleric would have been boss, but alas.

[Pine]

Look, too much is being made of me being able to self-heal. I am allowed to self-target, but I would forego healing someone else to do so.

Rephrase it this way: I am a limited-shot Doctor without the standard prohibition against self-targeting. A D&D cleric that can't heal themselves is basically a walking healing potion that bleeds.

[Pine]

...due to the threat of self-targeting, which would waste their shot

[Pine]

...due to the threat of self-targeting, which would waste their shot

Welcome to what i've been saying all along. Convenient threat claim to hide behind.

'Convenient' is what you say when it's deployed after the fact. I volunteered the information. If I were scum, I would have just said nothing about it.

[Pine]

I already claimed my protection target. I protected Shaziro.

Still not reading the game.

[Pine]

V/LA is for pansies

[Pine]

False

[Pine]

I am not scum goddamnit.

[Pine]

Okay, L-1, here's full claim.

I am the cleric.

I have an X-shot ability called Cure Wounds, which will let me protect someone, day or night. I am told that it is low priority, and if someone else intercedes to prevent the kill, it will not be used. I also have a 1-shot ability called Speak With Dead, which will let me open a PT with a dead player for one day phase.

Either of these abilities can be recharged to full if I use up the amulet we got D1.

I asked the mod pretty much right away, I am not restricted from healing myself. This is why I have been talking about self-healing. A Doctor role that announces themselves D1 is incredibly vulnerable, so I felt it necessary to make this clear, so as to confuse and deter them from quickly and easily removing the (likely) only dedicated healing role.

[Pine]

^Yeah, this is too stubborn and dumb to be scum.

[Pine]

Pine, why should I claim?

Who asked you to?

[Pine]

Mine is also usable in the day. It's hardly an uncommon thing.

[Pine]

Actually, I'm getting this creeping, sinking feeling that they're both Town.

Shit.

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Pine]

I don't have a culted scumread.

The Dunnstral scumread has nothing to do with policy. It has to do with two things; first, I don't believe his Miller claim at all. It doesn't make shit for sense in a game with a Traitor. They're too similar, and are both negative utility to Town. The only way I can make sense of both a Traitor and a Miller in a Mini is if the scumteam is two people, plus possible Traitor. There's no evidence of that.

The second thing is that Dunnstral has acted

fucking scummy

. I was all over it D1, but refrained from pushing a wagon on him because Millers are a Vigilante's purview. With no evidence of a Vig in the game, that barrier to action is gone. Further, he has been super scummy D2. Notice how he has only really been active D2 when defending himself from attack early on D2. When the group moved to a drealmerz/Pine dichotomy, he clammed right up and let us go at it. That's actually a huge part of my sinking feeling that we're TvT (fine, Sly, let's just say that I think I've been wrong about him.) This is pretty classic scum. Push really hard when it's on the line, then fade back when a TvT argument comes up.

[Pine]

With no evidence of a Vig in the game

creature died

He obviously wasn't converted. Occam's razor suggests that he was more likely killed by a non-Strahd member of the scumteam. His role PM specifically provides for scum killing him instead of recruiting him.

When the group moved to a drealmerz/Pine dichotomy, he clammed right up and let us go at it. That's actually a huge part of my sinking feeling that we're TvT

Are you daft? I said I didn't want to lynch drealmerz. I've said I wanted to lynch you.

Your statement does not negate mine. As long as the lynch was between two Townies, you clammed up and let us debate two sides of the same coin.

traitor isn't "negative utility to town" THEY'RE SCUM

Actually, Creature died with a Town wincon. He only converted if Strahd killed him.
=====

You'll note that I brought up Dunnstral again, and he immediately delurked and went into pure defense mode again.

Drealmerz, think we can call a truce and unite on Dunn?

(And what, I'm not allowed to change my avatar to a different kind of Pine? I'm trying it on for size.)

[Pine]

Yes, you are.

[Pine]

so since at L-1 I'll reveal:

one of the overall abilities I have is called Animal Companion, it grants me a few things, including the send message ability that is already known, but also a track ability (via a different animal, I'd imagine, since the messenger was a pigeon)

I'm a fucking Ranger of the Adventurers and you really should get off my wagon if you're town

Animal companion doesn't let you send messages with small animals, that's the "Animal Messenger" spell. Rangers do get it, but you were clearly just skimming the PDF of the Player's Handbook and settled on "Animal Companion" without reading it. It's nothing to do with your Animal Companion as a Ranger. You're lazily fakeclaiming toward the one person here who knows the classes like the back of his hand, that's a bad choice.

Just to play devil's advocate here, that could be a mod mistake just as easily as anything. I find it hard to believe that with this kind of flavor-heavy game, solid fakeclaims wouldn't have been provided anyway. Ergo, a very small flavor mistake is NAI.

Drealmerz and Shaziro, back your shit off of one another. I know you see each other as kind of the incarnation of Beelzebub right now, but your argument from the outside doesn't really make sense. I get a strong Townvibe from Shaziro, and I'm coming around quickly on drealmerz, so this is likely another TvT derailment. Keep it together, don't let Dunn weasel away again.

[Pine]

Drealmerz.

Focus.

Ignore him if you must.

Join me on Dunn.

[Pine]

Grrrrrrrrr FINE

Flipping on drealmerz and being disallowed from Dunn leaves me fresh out of scumreads strong enough to push hard on. I need to reread some people, but it's past 5AM.

Note to Mod and other players: I'm might have somewhat limited access until after the first of the year. I think the place we're going has wifi, but I may be restricted to phoneposting.

[Pine]

Ugh. I could compromise on Shaddow. I think there's less chance of him being scum than Dunn, but he's gotta go sometime.

VOTE: Shaddow

Flash wagon gogogo

[Pine]

Yeah, I'm reading Shaddow's ISO and it looks eerily familiar to the scumgame I just played with him. Lots of lurk, pops up once in a while to rephrase the same two or three things, no attempts to really gamesolve. He's another one who clammed right up when an apparently TvT doublewagon came up.

Comfortable lynching him.

PEdit: Still have a TR on Andy. He's too erratic to be scum. Looks like second-guessing and gamesolving to me.

[Pine]

Nah, I've come full circle on drealmerz. I'm pretty sure he's Town

[Pine]

The Townbloc I'm seeing is Pine, drealmerz, culted, Sky, Andy, and Shaziro. Scumread on Dunn and Shaddow. Jury's out on Persivul, I've gone back and forth on them. Unsure of the k-names.

PEdit: Drealmerz the answer to that goes beyond the scope of a phoneposting as I'm getting ready to shower and bed. If I don't answer you, remind me. I forget stuff when I'm tired.

[Pine]

Nahhh, I've got no real read on the Ks. To the point that I mix them up. I had an early KurorTown read, but it was weak and hasn't aged well

PEdit Everyone on my list IS a TR. Some games you scumhunt, some games you Townhunt and PoE the rest

PEdit2 I have my doubts. He can vote with us or not, but I'm not trusting him right now

[Pine]

It is also bad gameplay to investigate scummy players. If it returns guilty, congrats you were right about what you thought all along. If it returns innocent, it brings up Godfather WIFOM, which doesn't help.

Use Cop shots on null reads and lurkers. They're the most bang for your buck.

[Pine]

Eh.

It's almost entirely based on two things. First is the early claim, which was a gameplay error from no matter what alignment you want to assign me. I shouldn't have softclaimed, and if I did it needed to be more subtle. Alternatively, a hardclaim right from the start would have been wiser as well.

His second point is entirely speculative, with regard to how I'm trying to hoard items with nonconfirmable abilities etc. Well, kinda bullshit. Most people have unconfirmable roles, so what's his point?

Regrettably, it's hard to defend against these points. The first is entirely valid. The second is entirely invalid. There's just no grey area to debate. Complicating the matter is that I've had a somewhat strong TR on Sly since before he had a SR on me, so I'm not willing to smear him to fight it.

[Pine]

But he's actively scummy. Waste of a use from my POV. Just lynch him, use a Cop shot on someone hard to read, like you or one of the Ks

[Pine]

Andy, exactly what did drealz say to you with the animal messenger?

[Pine]

Sorry, you're right. It wasn't about the item, it was about the "convenience" of the claim, which is utter horsecrap nonsense.

Drealz thanks for reminding me. I had indeed forgotten. I'll go unpack my laptop and get on it.

[Pine]

pine what is the difference between my AtE raging here (where I'm town)
and my AtE raging that got my vigged N1 in the game we just finished as scum together?

Okay, I just reviewed your ISO for the LicketyQuickety game for fresh comparison and better articulation, and two things jump out at me.

First, the raging you were doing over there was directed at a specific purpose, at accomplishing an external objective. You were trying to get people lynched. It was coming off as fake outrage, which is disingenuous as fuck. Here, you've just been trying not to get lynched, full on defense mode with little effort to take down victims other than your own detractors. That's a lot more sincere. Your genuine outrage at injustice actually appears so, while the contrived emotion falls flat.

Second is the degree of control you exhibited in the two games; it's quite different. There, you had a tight leash on it, and let rip only when it was serving a purpose, then clamped down on it. That contributes a lot to the first point above, and screams of contrivance. In this game...hoo boy. You let go a number of times and just didn't fucking stop. A good example is the absolute fucking AVALANCHE of posts that start approximately here:

I'm not toxic, I'm rightfully pissed at a bunch of stupid fucking moves + scum moves that people are apparently SO FUCKING BLIND TO.

town is outmatched in sheer force of will and that isn't going to change with dumb-townies and scum just railroading everything

if you vote to lynch me and you're town, it's going to be one of the stupidest fucking moves you've done - pretty simple

That's not really the start of it, as you ramped up a bit before it, but it's definitely the start of overdrive. The 60-80 posts after that are just you going on a tirade and everyone else just responding to your tantrum. In contrast, here's the

most

vitriolic post from the other game:

Vote drealmerz

This guy is WAY too disappointed at the dissolution of the Josh wagon. Why so invested in it? He was an easy lynch, looks like disappointed scum.

I'm fucking devastated. Seriously. It's fucking bogus. Scum tactics through and through. He sells it well, but I am NOT BUYING IT. If he hadn't self-voted I MAYYYYYYYBE would have MAYYYYYBE dropped it depending on the rest of it, but, nononononono, that is just SCUMMMMMMMMMMM. And if he gets replaced because you guys let him go...omfg...graaahhhhhhhhhhhhh...."ohno they caught me replace me" - it's a fucking free pass

NOOOOO.

It's gotta be my HS culture. No doubt.

That's way more reserved. I mean, even in the middle of your outrage, you're hedging your bet and providing explanation. There's a lot of difference.

Took me a while to see it, but I've got a super solid TR on you now.

[Pine]

Granted, in 184 of LicketyQuickety's game, you and I were performing scum theatre, but it doesn't really lessen what I'm saying. That's still the most outraged post of that game.

[Pine]

I was a weak bodyguard in that game, FWIW

[Pine]

hmmm

If not pine I'm not opposed to voting shaddow at deadline

wouldn't vote drealmerz or shaziro

This makes me immediately less comfortable with the Shaddow lynch. Hmm.

[Pine]

The "pretty sure" makes all the difference.

[Pine]

Sigh.

WTF man.

I thought we'd moved past this.

[Pine]

Fine. Look, a lynch of me is better than a deadline no lynch, because we'll be right back where we are today, with no new information and likely one less Townie.

Let's do this: I've been itching to use this Speak With Dead power since I read it in my role PM. Who would you rather hear from? Jason, now confirmed to be entirely Town-minded, or Creature, who likely has some insight on both sides (remember, he died with a Town wincon)? My flip will confirm that I'm telling the truth, and you can work from my opinions and theirs.

[Pine]

The Townbloc I'm seeing is Pine, drealmerz, culted, Sky, Andy, and Shaziro. Scumread on Dunn and Shaddow. Jury's out on Persivul, I've gone back and forth on them. Unsure of the k-names.

Only people on my Townreads list get input on this decision.

[Pine]

Need input in the next 12ish hours on this, we're on a rapidly-approaching deadline.

[Pine]

Ugh, no provable randomization is a pretty general rule. Clumsy didn't spell it out, but still.

Give me your opinion please.

[Pine]

As much as I'd rather not waste such a useful ability at all, I don't want to waste it and not get the perspective we actually want. I can always recharge the power, but I'd rather use it for more heals or will it to someone with a more useful ability.

[Pine]

See, that's a worthwhile opinion.

Side note: This is actually a pretty decent way to make low-significance choices that you're indecisive about. Can't decide whether you want McDonald's or Burger King? Flip a coin. If you liked the outcome, then either that's the one you wanted anyway, or it truly didn't matter. Either way, decision made. If you're dismayed by the outcome, just ignore it and go to the other one. Decision made.

[Pine]

I'll send in the power use tomorrow around lunch time, try to have opinions in by then.

I also accept "Don't use the power, we're not lynching you Pine."

[Pine]

^Thats a scumpost. I'm not uncertain on Persivul anymore

[Pine]

You want to lynch me, but think actually using the power before I die shouldn't be done. You don't want any additional information.

VOTE: Persivul

[Pine]

Speak with dead doesn't make any damn sense as a scum power. They're the informed minority and gain nothing from talking to dead Town. Cure Wounds doesn't make sense for scum either.

[Pine]

Andrius, convince me Persivul is Town. I don't see it. The only benefit of the doubt I was giving him was incredulity that scum would be so doggedly aggressive

PEdit: Mod provided fake claims are a thing. Granting actual powers to accompany them isn't. Besides, I'm pretty resigned to getting lynched, barring a reversal of fortune. So with my Townflip about to happen, my intentions are about to be proven pure. This abject resistance to engaging with that is incredibly frustrating.

There's only a couple of hours to go til my self-imposed deadline to use this power. I need a reasonable amount of time to actually talk with Creature or Jason.

[Pine]

There's plenty of ways I can prove it, but not right now. Talking with dead to get their results, saving someone, rolecop.

Is it just me or Persivul is trying to discredit the entire NOTION of claiming. Most claims aren't immediately proveable.

I feel like maybe I did save Shaziro, and scum is butt hurt about it.

[Pine]

Andrius, convince me Persivul is Town. I don't see it. The only benefit of the doubt I was giving him was incredulity that scum would be so doggedly aggressive

PEdit: Mod provided fake claims are a thing. Granting actual powers to accompany them isn't. Besides, I'm pretty resigned to getting lynched, barring a reversal of fortune. So with my Townflip about to happen, my intentions are about to be proven pure. This abject resistance to engaging with that is incredibly frustrating.

There's only a couple of hours to go til my self-imposed deadline to use this power. I need a reasonable amount of time to actually talk with Creature or Jason.

fff
I don't think I'll be voting you.
If you don't die today I'd rather you be protecting someone tonight over communing with a dead player for your action.

Speak with dead is a day action. Cure wounds is night or day. They don't interfere.

[Pine]

Honestly, I'd probably wait to see who dies tonight (N2) because they're far more likely to be useful than Creature/Jason at this point.
IMO

I'd love to. I was holding onto it for someone more useful. However, if I get lynched the ability doesn't get used. I'd rather use it on someone of limited utility than no one.

Requesting the PT at 1PM EST (40 minutes). Presently targeting Creature. Let me know if you'd prefer anyone else.

Drealz, those are all Town or Townish. Evaluate a Shaddow or Persivul lynch for me?

[Pine]

I'm not sure not lynching me is an option, because I seem to be the only one interested in alternatives.

Shaziro, drealz is Town. His demonstrated power confirms him as Druid or ranger, and neither of them makes much sense as Strahd-aligned. So drealzscum=Andyscum

[Pine]

So if we're going to do something else, we need to actually do it as a team, and hurry.

I propose Shaddow or Persivul

PEdit: It can. There's no utility to scum for a whole bunch of powers

[Pine]

Messenger can be Strahd-aligned to try and find the traitor?
The fact it comes from a PIGEON can be immaterial if there is a Strahd-aligned Adventurer.

I'm not saying THIS IS THE CASE but THIS IS A COUNTERPOINT

I didn't realize it was a pigeon. That doesn't really fit with animal messenger. Hrm. Everything else is telling me drealmerz is Town. Table it for another day.

VOTE: Shaddow

Come on Andy. This is the best option.

[Pine]

I didn't think I'd be around long enough for a 3x healing ability to need recharging. I planned on conserving Speak w/Dead, and didn't foresee a situation where recharging it would be useful. I actually already said some of this.

[Pine]

Sent in a request to talk to Creature.

[Pine]

I'd like an unbiased confirmed Town opinion. Why are you so dead-set against this?

[Pine]

And yet you want to lynch me.

Is anyone else seeing massive cognitive dissonance in this? Doesn't want me to use it, wants me dead.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, scum.

[Pine]

Conversing with Creature

[Pine]

I'm working on it, Andy

[Pine]

Creature and I are not agreeing on all things. He's practically ranting against culted and Kuroi.

He generally agrees with TRs on Shaziro and Andrius, is on the fence about Sly and Persivul. He was back and forth on me but agrees that contacting dead makes no damn sense as a scum power.

He's pretty null on kuror0 and drealmerz. Has not mentioned Dunn, I just asked about him.

He thinks Shaddow or a K-name is a good compromise, doesn't want to lynch the main choices.

[Pine]

Who thinks shaddowez is scum, and why?

I do. I've stated my reasons, but can put together a more comprehensive summary after lunch with the family

[Pine]

We're not lynching Andy

[Pine]

Fine, you want Andrius? Convince me and Creature.

[Pine]

Fair enough

[Pine]

Deadline is right. Let's cut the crap.

We're not going to successfully get a flash wagon on someone new. If drealz or I were going to be lynched today, it'd have happened by now. Shaddow is our compromise

[Pine]

Andrius wagon isn't happening today because Town. Drealz wagon isn't happening today because Town (your paranoia about his messenger weirdness doesn't counter the Towntell I picked up on). Pine wagon isn't happening today because Town.

I am increasingly certain of Shaddow, not the least because there's extraordinary resistance to his wagon for someone who no one has a Townread on

[Pine]

Ladies.

Fight it out tomorrow.

[Pine]

Andrius wagon isn't happening today because Town. Drealz wagon isn't happening today because Town (your paranoia about his messenger weirdness doesn't counter the Towntell I picked up on). Pine wagon isn't happening today because Town.

I am increasingly certain of Shaddow, not the least because there's extraordinary resistance to his wagon for someone who no one has a Townread on

With your wagons yesterday and today, if you're both town you should be able to learn something from VCA.

Both wagons were kind of anemic and there have been two flips, one a Traitor who was likely hedging his bets. Yes, VCA is helpful and informative, but it's far from definitive.

Are you always this counterproductive, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

[Pine]

Fuck you.

Yeah? Fuck you too, guy. You've been after me all game for unusually garbage reasons, so it's a little hard not to take it personally.

Drealz, don't worry about it. I haven't decided whether to self-protect or heal someone else, but it's either going to be you or me.

[Pine]

So really, table the not-gonna-happen until tomorrow.

[Pine]

Wtf am I thinking? I keep forgetting Dunnstral is in this, because he's hardcore lurking so hard. Practically the only thing he's done all day has been Beetlejuicing to whenever someone remembers him.

He needs to die anyway. Miller claims don't make it to LYLO.

[Pine]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Pine]

Practically the only thing he's done all day has been Beetlejuicing to whenever someone remembers him.

That's all Kuroi does too, yet he's town.

I don't TR Kuroi. Dunnstral was super scummy D1, and has the problem of his claim against him too

[Pine]

pine what is the difference between my AtE raging here (where I'm town)
and my AtE raging that got my vigged N1 in the game we just finished as scum together?

Okay, I just reviewed your ISO for the LicketyQuickety game for fresh comparison and better articulation, and two things jump out at me.

First, the raging you were doing over there was directed at a specific purpose, at accomplishing an external objective. You were trying to get people lynched. It was coming off as fake outrage, which is disingenuous as fuck. Here, you've just been trying not to get lynched, full on defense mode with little effort to take down victims other than your own detractors. That's a lot more sincere. Your genuine outrage at injustice actually appears so, while the contrived emotion falls flat.

Second is the degree of control you exhibited in the two games; it's quite different. There, you had a tight leash on it, and let rip only when it was serving a purpose, then clamped down on it. That contributes a lot to the first point above, and screams of contrivance. In this game...hoo boy. You let go a number of times and just didn't fucking stop. A good example is the absolute fucking AVALANCHE of posts that start approximately here:

I'm not toxic, I'm rightfully pissed at a bunch of stupid fucking moves + scum moves that people are apparently SO FUCKING BLIND TO.

town is outmatched in sheer force of will and that isn't going to change with dumb-townies and scum just railroading everything

if you vote to lynch me and you're town, it's going to be one of the stupidest fucking moves you've done - pretty simple

That's not really the start of it, as you ramped up a bit before it, but it's definitely the start of overdrive. The 60-80 posts after that are just you going on a tirade and everyone else just responding to your tantrum. In contrast, here's the

most

vitriolic post from the other game:

Vote drealmerz

This guy is WAY too disappointed at the dissolution of the Josh wagon. Why so invested in it? He was an easy lynch, looks like disappointed scum.

I'm fucking devastated. Seriously. It's fucking bogus. Scum tactics through and through. He sells it well, but I am NOT BUYING IT. If he hadn't self-voted I MAYYYYYYYBE would have MAYYYYYBE dropped it depending on the rest of it, but, nononononono, that is just SCUMMMMMMMMMMM. And if he gets replaced because you guys let him go...omfg...graaahhhhhhhhhhhhh...."ohno they caught me replace me" - it's a fucking free pass

NOOOOO.

It's gotta be my HS culture. No doubt.

That's way more reserved. I mean, even in the middle of your outrage, you're hedging your bet and providing explanation. There's a lot of difference.

Took me a while to see it, but I've got a super solid TR on you now.

Here's my Towncase on dreal. Granted, it's mostly based on my own experience with him, so your mileage may vary, but I think it's reasonably strong.

[Pine]

VOTE: Shaddowez

Thought I switched back a while ago.

Let's go, people. Lynch either me or Shaddow, but do it fast. A no-lynch serves no one.

[Pine]

Creature is super pissy, by the way. He's posted like a dozen times this evening demanding for something to happen.

The TL;DR of that thread is that he wants us to prioritize Kuroi, Shaddow, and Culted. I don't agree with the last, but I said I'd bear the message.

Specifically about the Kuroi/Kuror0 alleged innocent, he's calling bullshit. Specifically, and I'm quoting here, "Tits or GTFO." I happen to concur. There's way too many vague "Trust me so-and-so is Town" in this thread.

[Pine]

Respond to what? Your questions appear rhetorical. You disagree with my interpretation, your rebuttal does not sway me. What are you looking for here?

[Pine]

Not once have I said anything remotely resembling that. What the hell are you talking about?

[Pine]

That's not really what Glibness does in 5e, but I guess it could be twisted around to include it.

I'm going to say don't bother investigating kuror0 tonight, there's a large part of the Glibness spell that fools any attempts at detecting deception. My 2CP.

[Pine]

I wasn't planning on protecting you. Probably either drealmerz or myself.

[Pine]

[Pine]

[Pine]

VOTE: Sly

Blatantly anti-Town if real

[Pine]

Governing this close to deadline is anti-Town. Period.

PEdit: There are variations. It might end day, but if not I'm getting my vote in place because we don't have time to wait for Clumsy

[Pine]

Calling it - Shaddow is Strahd, scum lose if Strahd is lynched

Drealmerz denied protective. Andrius was the one who said it, drealmerz denied. Read the game please.

[Pine]

Calling it - Shaddow is Strahd, scum lose if Strahd is lynched

Drealmerz denied protective. Andrius was the one who said it, drealmerz denied. Read the game please.

It seems unbalanced to have scum die if one member dies. Maybe if they have a -lot- of ways to protect Strahd?

Like governor?

[Pine]

It's POSSIBLE that is have a power that causes rainbow leprechauns riding purple unicorns to fly out of the arses of scum so I can skeet-shoot day vig them. It's just not likely or balanced.

[Pine]

There's probably other support. Could be bulletproof, or have a scumDoc. Maybe some kind of daypower.

This is all just vague speculation, there's nothing to support it other than Sly's apparently desperate govern, plus his "Aww fuck" attitude after it.

[Pine]

Moar Sly votes. If Governor doesn't end the day, I'd rather be prepared.

[Pine]

Sly's sudden, complete, and wholly unexplained reversal on me is quite suspect.

[Pine]

Finally home from my thing. It's four AM though. Couple quick notes:

-I believe Andrius entirely. There's like zero profit margin in him lying as scum, and he's not redirected or victim to a framer; Strahd's Godfather is the anti-Cop scum countermeasure. There isn't a second.
-This makes Persivul, despite his loathsome attitude, confirmed Town*
-Kuroi is also essentially confirmed Town via Kuror0's Hider flip*
-Andrius is essentially confirmed* due to being Cop.
-I withdraw my suspicion of SlySly from the end of the day, it was based entirely on the Governor issue, which was fake.
-The revelation of a Godfather again condemns Dunnstral. A Traitor, Miller, and Godfather all at once? Come on. Pull the other leg next time. Shaziro goes first ofc.
-Culted is the only question mark in my book, but he was reasonably consistent on Shaddow.

--> I will be activating the Amulet to recharge Speak With Dead to talk with Drealmerz and retrieve his track result. Let me know if you have any questions for him.

*With significant evidence of a full second killer, we have to consider the possibility of a Serial Killer. Given theme, I don't think that likely, but for the purposes of this consideration, confirmed Town=not groupscum.

[Pine]

I protected SlySly, consistent with my reversal on him. I was hoping that announcing my intention to protect either myself or Drealmerz would dissuade scum from targeting either of us, while actually protecting someone else. If this had worked, I'd have essentially spread my protection to three people. Unfortunately, it seems not to have worked.

Oh, also, it seems plausible that Shaziro was likely getting details on locations from Shaziro-Strahd.

VOTE: Lake Zarovich?

[Pine]

Doesn't prove shit. Both role PMs specifically say Strahd has to lead the kill, which means anyone else on Strahd's team could have killed her without triggering the Traitor mechanic.

[Pine]

Paranoia about Trackers and Watchers, for one. I know when I'm scum I'm always worried about them

[Pine]

Thread opened with drealmerz. Asked him about track result

[Pine]

OH shit I'm a dumbass. Kuror0 couldn't have died unless he hid behind scum, so his hide target is a guilty. It's likely Shaziro, but this warrants using the amulet for real.

That means that with two deaths, one of them a hider going behind scum, I likely succeeded with my protect. Someone probably shot SlySly last night, unless scum and Vig both shot drealmerz, which is entirely possible. It's not a clear on Sly, but combined with my longstanding TR, I think it's good enough for now.

Okay, confession: I did not speak with Creature yesterday. I was bluffing, in order to get Shaddow lynched and preserve my power for when it could be used for retrieving investigative results.

I am using the amulet for real now, to talk with kuror0.

[Pine]

It's done. Game is almost solved, and if we can get a second guilty, that's it.

[Pine]

Andy is cleared. He's a cop with a guilty.

[Pine]

Andy is cleared. He's a cop with a guilty.

Wrong thread. Arguing with drealmerz, he's still pushing Andy.

[Pine]

don't waste it on that

And drealz is giving me a hard time for my choice of targets. Boo boo I'm the cleric, I do what I want.

[Pine]

Also, he was roleblocked or something, because his track failed.

[Pine]

Also, he was roleblocked or something, because his track failed.

Because he died?
Death occurs before investigations.

Not usually. Especially not Tracker. Especially not if there's a Speak With Dead mechanic.

It's moot anyway. He got no result.

[Pine]

Aye. Drealmerz was blocked.

[Pine]

Bingo. Kuror0 hid behind Dunnstral, and he also confirmed with Clumsy that Hider only dies behind real scum, not Miller.

Shaziro and Dunnstral, game solved.

[Pine]

I'm Cleric, obv.

N1 - Protected Shaziro
N2 - Protected SlySly
D3 - Opened PT with Drealmerz
D3 - Opened PT with Kuror0

Persivul, please claim classes for both of you.

[Pine]

Sounds good.

Dunn's desperation is kind of adorable.

UNVOTE:

[Pine]

Neat.

VOTE: Lake

[Pine]

So who's obv-town here? Other than myself, of course.

Pine, Persivul, Kuroi, Andrius, Culted are pretty confTown at this point. SlySly probably too.

[Pine]

Plus guilties on both Shaziro and Dunnstral. Game is essentially solved.

[Pine]

Nice.

Drealmerz is ranting about redirectors because he's convinced you're scum. I say "Nah."

[Pine]

He's an investigative role, and I'm running out of healing charges. Now or never.

[Pine]

Mordor.

[Pine]

lulz

You're killing me Andy

[Pine]

Making fun of Mafia again, 2017

[Pine]

Andrius...may I bear your children?

[Pine]

Andrius...may I bear your children?

YOU BETTER BE QUICK
IM DYING YO

Cure Wounds on Andrius

No you're not. Babies now.

[Pine]

<333

[Pine]

Drealmerz is going to be absolutely intolerable now. His murdercock for you is longer and harder than that tree thing.

[Pine]

Dying Paladin?



Not on my watch.

[Pine]

Dunnstral dies first.

[Pine]

Dunnstral guilty isn't indirect. Kuror0 is giving it to me straight. Doesn't matter though.

BUT STOP VOTING. We need to give out an item first.

VOTE: Pine

[Pine]

Mod: Please confirm which part of day we're in and what we're voting on

I suspect Andrius is right, I must've completely missed adventure resolution, but I'll be happier knowing for sure

[Pine]

UNVOTE:

[Pine]

I'll heal you again. Should be my last shot, then I'm a VT

[Pine]

Good game.

I don't think it was unbalanced, it was

swingy

. If things had gone scum's way, they'd have gone that way hard.

Dunn claiming Miller was kind of his undoing. I don't think I'd have suspected him otherwise. Then getting a Traitor and Godfather flip, there's way too much negative utility there.