Mini 523 - Game Over!

[Nudude]

Vote: Dark Lady Shaiann

My first vote, the first vote of this thread, for the first person, in my personal first post and the first post of this thread, in my first game!

I just wanted to cram as many "Firsts" in this as I could, nothing personal DLS =)

[Nudude]

Now, for the sake of randomness, I'm going to roll a d12....

[/b]Unvote, Vote:Charter

Game on! =D

[Nudude]

Unvote, Vote:Charter

reposted due to unbolded vote

[Nudude]

Infinitive

Vote: No Vote

Everyone else is voting so far, so I'm gonna cool my heels and read what people have to say for now. Besides, I got lynched in my last game for trying to figure things out.

I certainly hope that doesn't happen this game. There's nothing wrong with voicing thoughts, and I think it's important people can feel comfortable voicing their thoughts without fear of being speed lynched.

Example:

Charter, in post 10, you randomly voted for

deepthought

, then made another random vote for

disciple slayer

in post 14, quoting "How does it take three posts to make a random vote?", which obviously isn't a serious reason.

It seems a bit strange to throw around so many 'Random' votes, people usually only change their votes when some new information has come to light, or do you simply enjoy random voting?

[Nudude]

charter, better post an explanation fast.

FOS: charter

I don't know what to think of Lord Nikon/Dark Lady Shaiann yet.

Post an explanation of what? That I went from one random vote to another for really no reason?

Well I'm willing to accept that explaination for now, just be careful swinging around votes because you feel like it.

Generally, people will throw out a random vote, then either jump on a bandwagon, OMGUS, jump off a potential early hammer or some new information comes to light to make them change their vote.

If you don't really care who your voting for, maybe you don't really care who we lynch? That's what got me suspicous.

As I said, I'm willing to accept your explaination for now, but IGMEOY.

If conversation doesn't pick up guys, we might have to start having a look at some of the lurkers. Mods are quite happy to throw deadlines on threads that aren't moving, so we've got to get some more people talking.

[Nudude]

If you don't really care who your voting for, maybe you don't really care who we lynch? That's what got me suspicous.

As I said, I'm willing to accept your explaination for now, but IGMEOY.

(Is that "I've Got My Eye On You"?)

It's a weak case to springboard off of even during D1, and I'd be much more interested in the way you've maneuvered around so far.

It is a weak case, I admit that. A mere straw....but straws turn into haystacks. I'm not accusing charter of anything, well not yet at least.

I certainly hope that doesn't happen this game. There's nothing wrong with voicing thoughts, and I think it's important people can feel comfortable voicing their thoughts without fear of being speed lynched.

That, for example, smacks of trying too hard. It's an easy snipe from the wings (people should

discuss

things! ) that uses a lot of words to effectively just say that charter voted twice. That's not that remarkable early on.

Actually, I was addressing Infinitive's post:

Vote: No Vote

Everyone else is voting so far, so I'm gonna cool my heels and read what people have to say for now. Besides, I got lynched in my last game for trying to figure things out.

Town wants people to talk, so we can gather information on people.

Scum obviously wants there to be as little information as possible, thereby making it harder to pick them.

If people are afraid of getting lynched for simply voicing a thought they have, we are going to lose because there will not be enough information to make educated votes. I also don't want people to have an excuse for lurking.

If conversation doesn't pick up guys, we might have to start having a look at some of the lurkers.

Another easy snipe: lurkers are a safe target because they don't hit back and nobody really likes them anyway. You don't even pick on anyone, just suggest "guys, we should potentially do...something."

At least I'm contributing, rather than coming out swinging at the guy proposing that we start having a look a lurkers......how many posts had you made before this? Is it coincidence that your comment comes after I propose we start having a look at lurkers?

Having said that though, I am glad that you are at least having a look and voicing some thoughts (even if it is me!).

How about we start having a look at the people not contributing?

[Nudude]

At least I'm contributing, rather than coming out swinging at the guy proposing that we start having a look a lurkers......how many posts had you made before this? Is it coincidence that your comment comes after I propose we start having a look at lurkers?

One of the things that plays out differently on SA is the opening, where a few jokevotes get thrown around for the hell of it and people start posting actual stuff within a few hours or so. This game's been just the opposite: everyone plunks down a vote and nothing else, disappears, and things start to stall (because a jokevote is contributing, amirite?). Normally I'd be a bit more chatty, but you need something to work with.

All of that aside, your post still comes off as forced. If your concern is purely lurkers killing the game, why go after the guy with two posts (two votes, even) and not one of the quieter ones?

Your right, everyone has just plunked down a vote, and the game was stalling, but now we have at least got something rolling, and we are starting to get something to work with =).

My concern isn't so much lurkers, as much as people just sitting around, and nothing developing, no conversation and no information to work off. Lurkers are etiher lurking, because, as you said, they have nothing to work off, or because they don't *want* people talking and formualting opinions.

By getting lurkers to get more involved, people will start talking, and before you know it, people won't be able to use the excuse "Well, there's nothing really to work on.

I picked charter simply because I had one of two votes on him, and he was as good as anyone. If you think there is a better target, then please let me know and we'll focus on them instead.

TBH, there's nothing IMO to indicate anyone is scum yet, but you gotta start somewhere.

[Nudude]

Sorry for being quiet, guys; this is only my second game, and I'm trying the "How to be a good townie" strategy from the article someone posted around here. I'm not encouraging other people not to vote, I'm just not going to throw mine at someone until I have a reason to yet.

And yes, I am watching a couple of people, but there's no reason to jump the gun this early. Better to cool your heels and watch than open a possible scum-jump lynch, eh?

Fair enough, do you have a link to this article? I get the impression there are a fair amount of new people in this game, and I'm sure everyone would appreciate some good advice =).

It seems to me people are of the mindset if there's nothing to talk about, then you shoudn't post. Do you see how if everyone had that mindset, then no-one would ever post?

I think we've established that a speed lynch is a bad idea, and that there is also absolutely no reason to rush a lynch. What we *do* need to start doing though is getting people to talk.

You seem to have been watching the game fairly closely, have you formed any thoughts?

[Nudude]

Mod Edit
From now on, I will put a vote count in the top post of each page.

Vote Count:

charter (2)

- Nudude, liamcool
Disciple Slayer - (2) charter, VampyreLord
Lord Nikon (2) - Gorgon, Shotgun_Kitten
Dark_Lady_Shaiann (2) - Lord Nikon, Hang 'em High
liamcool (1) - deepthought

Not Voting (3) - Infinitive, DiscipleSlayer, Dark_Lady_Shaiann

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Random Vote: Lord Nikon

Cause he's not dark like me.

You claim that your vote is random, yet you give a reason for it? I believe we're now out of the random voting stage and we've caught us a scum.

Unvote, Vote: Dark Lady Shaiann

It's a random reason for a random vote.....

Ok, so your vote was random....fair enough.

Hello, everyone. Sorry for not posting sooner; as you'll see from my signature, weekends are tough for me. Day one is largely a guessing game, but we've got to start somewhere. The one thing that stood out to me while reading the weekend's posts was Dark_Lady_Shaiann putting a 4th vote on Lord Nikon. A 4th vote on page 1 is a little odd. She said it was a random vote, but there was no dice roll to back it up. While it probably

was

random, it's possible she was claiming random while trying to get a bandwagon going. Now I know a 4th vote isn't a big deal since the risk of a quick lynch is minimal, but it was the only thing that caught my eye at all so for now I'm going to:

Vote: Dark_Lady_Shaiann

I would have voted for him earlier, but to be honest I didn't even really know he was there until some one else voted for him >_< I just thought it would be kind of on the funny side......

unvote

So now your voting for him because it would be kind of funny?

Which was it?

FOS: Dark Lady Shaiann

[Nudude]

Ok fair enough DLS, consider my FOS lifted =)

I'd like to have a look at the Lord Nikon bandwagon a bit more, if there are no objections? If someone else has other ideas, please bring them to light.

It was started Gorgon, which in itself doesn't really mean alot, but what does get my attention is that he's been very quiet. Can you share any observations you've made so far Gorgon?

[Nudude]

If conversation doesn't pick up guys, we might have to start having a look at some of the lurkers. Mods are quite happy to throw deadlines on threads that aren't moving, so we've got to get some more people talking.

While I appreciate your enthusiasm, I think this game is moving along pretty well considering we're early in day 1. The first day is really tough and people have to build cases with only flimsy evidence. Obviously we've got to keep pushing, but I don't think we're in any danger of getting deadlined yet.

I don't like when people guide the conversation but don't take action themselves. It makes me think they're trying to get a bandwagon going without attaching themselves to it. If you think we should go after lurkers, you do it. Don't ask others to do your work for you.

You make a fair point. I wasn't telling anyone to do anything, just making the suggestion we have a look at lurkers. If people don't want to that's fine, I'm just throwing out an idea, and I would encourage everyone to throw out any ideas they have.

We haven't heard anything from Lord Nikon in awhile. You came out virtually guns blazing with two votes and accusations on the first page, but we haven't heard from you since, any reason for the sudden change of tactics?

[Nudude]

Well SK has been very quiet as of late....

Shotgun Kitten, can you give us some sort of explaination, or any observations you've made?

I'm still wait for an explaination from Lord Nikon.

If I don't hear from you, I am going to vote for one of you.

[Nudude]

Well...it is a mini, my first mini, and when the game was going really fast I kind of just skimmed to see if anything was being said about me, and then some how I came across some one elses vote for Lord Nikon, and that was when his name stuck out to me. So....I was just being really careless and fairly newbish. I apologize and will be sure to actually read everything.

So in line with your promise to read everything, do you have any thoughts to share with us?

[Nudude]

I still choose to reserve judgement on DLS, as a townie you need to be aware of what everyone says about everyone.

Saying that she was just skimming to see what people were saying about her indicates that she isn't concerned so much with identifing scum, as much as if people are suspicious of her.

Having said that, I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt for the time being, given that this is her first mini.

Hearing what conclusions she's drawn so far would also help alay my suspicions.

MOD

: Can we have

Lord Nikon

prodded please? Haven't heard from him in awhile.

[Nudude]

If conversation doesn't pick up guys, we might have to start having a look at some of the lurkers. Mods are quite happy to throw deadlines on threads that aren't moving, so we've got to get some more people talking.

I don't like when people guide the conversation but don't take action themselves. It makes me think they're trying to get a bandwagon going without attaching themselves to it. If you think we should go after lurkers, you do it. Don't ask others to do your work for you.

Just to clear up a definition, unless I'm throwing a vote at someone I'm not taking action?. Generating discussion, posting regularly, asking people for clarification, chasing up low - contributors and bringing my thoughts up is in some way trying to get others to do work for me? I think everyone who's playing is guilty of that.

I admit I haven't moved my vote since the random voting phase, but by your definition that somehow indicates I'm trying to get people to do my dirty work for me?

I'm sure I haven't understood you correctly, can you clarify for me what you define as someone who is taking a pro - active role, and someone how is trying to get others to do the dirty work?

Also:

This is getting ridiculous; SK is single-handedly stalling the game and hasn't posted in just under a week. Replace her or modkill her or something.

I don't think any townie would

ever

want a random mod kill, when a replacement will not only reveal more about that particular character, but also because it's a shot in the dark, we could be killing a townie for all we know. Even considering this option is on par woth considering a quick - lynch, and there's only one type of person that wants a quick kill.

It's not just suspicious to me, it's damning.

Vote: deepthought

[Nudude]

We don't know. I have limited experience here, but it usually seems to be 3 mafia in a 12 person mini. It's also possible to have a Serial Killer. If there is a SK, there might only be 2 mafia (although 3 is still more likely).

I actually like DLS's response. It's reasonable and she didn't get overly defensive. I can believe she is a newbie who didn't pay close enough attention. It doesn't clear her entirely of course, but her response does lessen my suspicion somewhat.

I'm going to throw you a rope deepthought, HeH also felt that MAYBE (Emphasis on the maybe, HeH was quite clearly just giving his best guess) that 25% of the players maybe scum. I also think that percentage is about right.

In regards to liam. The problem with lurkers is it's hard to ascertain their agenda. This doesn't neccesarily mean that they're guilty, just that they are worthy of our suspicions. I strongly suspect deepthought, but he at least is making the effort to defend himself, I would like to hear some sort of explaination from you too. Soon.

If for some reason LN picks up his prod (which I doubt at this point) then I'm going to expect a serious explaination out of him. My vote stands, but liam you really need to start giving us some input.

[Nudude]

Ok, my thoughts.

deepthought, I believe everyone is aware lynching a townie D1 is not the end of the world, however we want to do everything in our power to make sure we nail scum if we can.

You've made it quite clear that it's not really a big deal to you if we lynch scum or town on the first day. Now to be fair, if a lynch turns up townie that does give us more insight into who is scum. We can better analyse the lynched townie thoughts and know for 100% that it was a townie's thoughts, and who pushed for the lynch ie. who seemd to

know

they were lynching a townie? So yes, I'm willing to concede it isn't game breaking.

This is post 75, minus the mod votecount

Be careful a bandwagon doesn't form here, people. If nothing else, it's foolish to become suspicious of someone because they haven't posted recently, and then to lynch them before they say anything about the increasing number of votes against them.

Nobody's going to drop the hammer before she gets a chance to say something (at least I'd hope not), but there's nothing wrong with poking her with a stick a few times.

This post indicates a clear reluctance to kill someone off before they've had a chance to defend themselves.

This is post 84.

This is getting ridiculous; SK is single-handedly stalling the game and hasn't posted in just under a week. Replace her or modkill her or something.

9 posts later your suggesting a mod kill

before

her replacement has even had a chance to make a single post. And since then your stance has been "If we get a townie, it's not that big a deal" which is a clear contridiction to post 75, where you advocate giving people the chance to defend themselves.

It's for this reason I strongly suspect your scum.

[Nudude]

Right! Has the bazzlion or so posts of s***storm cleared? Good

deepthought, I'm hurt you think I'm a "over eager" newbie townie. Well I guess if you turn out to be a Doc then you'll most certainly be proven right. If you are a doc, I apologise sincerely for presenting information that lead to you nearly getting lynched and forcing you to role claim.

I still think I'm right about you being scum, but it IS far too early in the day to be lynching anyone.

Now the people of the hour, DLS and DS. DLS's mannerisims have seemed a bit strange, and perhaps the message she was trying to convey got misconstrued, but she's strange in a way that does not further the cause of any imaginable scum agenda. I'm leaning to her innocence at this moment.

As for you DS, I can see your point of view, I'd rather vote for a jerk than someone I got along with, and if two people are scummy, you gotta vote for one right, so why not the jerk? Perfectly reasonable logic.

To be honest, do you feel perhaps some of the things you said to be out of line, "Jerkish" perhaps? By your logic, it would encourage people to vote for you. Having said that, I also feel you are innocent.

Glad to have you guys focusing on scumhunting again

Now Liamcool, shame on you, putting DT in a hammer position. Putting down a hammer vote is the scummiest thing you can do. The SECOND most scummiest thing you can do is is putting someone in a position to be hammered.

Am I right, or am I being "Newbish" again?

[Nudude]

My bad. I meant to include...

FOS: Liamcool

[Nudude]

Now Liamcool, shame on you, putting DT in a hammer position. Putting down a hammer vote is the scummiest thing you can do. The SECOND most scummiest thing you can do is is putting someone in a position to be hammered.

It very much depends on the situation whether it's scummy to put someone at L-1, or to hammer them. It's something that has to happen eventually, yet you're casting automatic suspicion on those who do it. Anyway, what if DT turns up scum (which you seem to find likely)? Are you still going to call the player that hammered him scummy? Sounds to me a little like you

know

DT is town and want to make sure that people know that anyone who hammers him or gets him close to a lynch should be considered scummy, while you yourself remain free of blame, even though you've been voting DT for a while now yourself. If you were really that concerned about DT getting too close to a lynch, you should have unvoted ... but you chose not to; just FOS-ing liamcool while keeping your vote on deepthought. Way to set up the next mislynch, huh? Or bussing/distancing ...

Am I right, or am I being "Newbish" again?

If by "Newbish" you mean scummy, then yes ... yes indeed.

Big ol'

HOS: Nudude

Look, your right, putting someone in a hammer position is not the slightest bit scummy, we shouldn't even pause to consider it. Lets move along.

My vote is still on DT because, as I said in the post that you took this quote from, I still think he's scum. However, I also accept that fact I didn't get the "Omnipitent Townie" role (damn!) and that it's worth investigating and having a look at other possibilites.

deepthought, I'm hurt you think I'm a "over eager" newbie townie.

You use a lot of very over-wraught arguments, and there are two ways to read you at this point:

1) Scum attempting an aggressive opening that limits the scope of day 1 to townies - post #22 might want to get out of the jokevote phase quickly to take some heat off of LN (who has 3 votes at the time, which might lead a new-player teammate to panic a little) without explicitly going after the people who've voted for him, or just put yourself out there as a forward-thinking townie. You see someone calling your play "newbie town" and think, "if I appear hurt, that'll make me look REALLY innocent!"

2) A new player who wants to get the town on track, hit home runs with every argument, and generally be All-American. The reason I opt for this one is that you try a very abrupt shift out of the jokevote phase, where it seems like a scum would be able to lurk a little longer and get a better feel for who's worth targeting (and would want to so as not to draw a target on his back).

Only two reasons? I can think of a couple more, accurate reasons at that.

1) Nudude is

really

enjoying his first game. He likes reading what people say and forming assesments on people seeing if he can catch some scum. He's a studying psychologist and finds this game utterly fascinating.

2) Likes to post with some flavour. He knows the pros prefer to be a bit more objective, but he's not them, he's Nudude. He likes his posts to have a little character.

3)To ensure that he gets to contribute as much as possible, he skirts the fine line between town/scum by making himself a little hard to read. Too scummy he gets lynched, too town and he gets NK. I wants to stay alive as long as possible. However, he is very willing to sacrifice himself if neccesary, he just hopes it never becomes neccesary.

BTW, let the records show I'm an Australian that hates baseball .

[Nudude]

I'd like to present a hypothetical.

DT is mafia who role claimed to save his neck, and possibly lure out the doc. The doc doesn't take the bait and doesn't counter claim.

He knows that the townies won't know the real doc, but the scum will, and he will die. Instead, knowing that if DT isn't lynched or NK D1, his guilt will be apparent in D2 anyway, no need for the real doc to stick his neck out.

I daresay this is why we haven't had a counter - claim yet.

DS brings up a good point, it is a perfectly reasonable mafia play to leave DT alive IF he is doc, as we are going to be mighty suspicious of him D2, where we will likely be forced to lynch him anyway.

[Nudude]

@DT

Why'd you change your avatar to that of a doctor? Your old one was a scum avatar, wasn't it? Is this to try and convince us that you are indeed the doc?

@everyone else

When DT first claimed doc, I was initially unwilling to vote him. However, consider this scenario. I am inclined to believe it.

DT is mafia. He claimed doc hoping that the real doc counterclaims. Once someone else counterclaims, the mafia kills the real doc at night. DT may be lynched, but existing mafia voting for him will have suspicion taken off them for putting votes on DT early.

One thing went wrong, though. The real doc, who probably is smart, didn't counterclaim and/or is inactive. This leaves the mafia no option but to switch their votes to someone else. I don't have time to browse through the beginning of the thread, but people who voted for DT early then pulled it off should be viewed as suspects.

I continue to believe that deepthroat's doc claim is false. He admitted to thinking about fucking with the town and claiming cop, which puts him in a fallacious mindset. If he could do a fake cop claim, he can do a fake doc claim.

I'd like to present a hypothetical.

DT is mafia who role claimed to save his neck, and possibly lure out the doc. The doc doesn't take the bait and doesn't counter claim.

He knows that the townies won't know the real doc, but the scum will, and he will die. Instead, knowing that if DT isn't lynched or NK D1, his guilt will be apparent in D2 anyway, no need for the real doc to stick his neck out.

I daresay this is why we haven't had a counter - claim yet.

DS brings up a good point, it is a perfectly reasonable mafia play to leave DT alive IF he is doc, as we are going to be mighty suspicious of him D2, where we will likely be forced to lynch him anyway.

I like how me and a psychologist came to the same conclusion. I can be a psychologist too!

Haha I'm only first year, nothing fancy!

[Nudude]

Wow, I really hate this weekend. My PSP is now a fancy, expensive paperweight. I didn't even screw around with the firmware. It's outside of the warranty too; I got it secondhand.

Goddamn it.

Anyway... it seems to me that the proposed strategy regarding DT is thus: Either we lynch him now or lynch him tomorrow. I'm not saying that it's the right thing to do yet, even though I am inclined towards DT over anyone else in the thread (as noted by my rather exasperated previous post). Here are the scenerios I see:

Option 1: We don't lynch Deepthought. In this case, one a couple of things happens: One, he's not scum and the real scum see a claimed doc as being tempting enough to not take any chances (nightkill, which he doesn't seem too worried about, oddly). In this case, we lynched someone else and are down a doc, which is probably (unless we got lucky otherwise) not very good for the long game. Two is that the scum don't take the bait and try to get a fortunate lynch out of us on day two, presenting the town with a classic wine in front of me (<3 Princess Bride) situation where we have little choice other than to lynch him, as he's been scummy in general and survived the night. Three is that he is in fact scum, in which case the solution to possibility two applies, for the same reason.

Option 2: We lynch him. In this case, he's either scum or not, and the Mafia chooses who among us is cutting through the BS best and NK them. On day 2, we're left with some ground-level suspicions on several people for scummy activity, as well as suspicion on myself, Thanatos, and HEH (and POSSIBLY a little Nudude) for spearheading the investigation against Deepthought if he was, in fact, town.

Option 3: We don't lynch Deepthought and then leave him live on day 2; after this point, it is unlikely that he will ever be lynched. If he is actually scum, it will likely lead to a loss for the town. If he's actually a doc, it may prolong the game for a further day if he gets a lucky protect.

I don't really know which option I prefer... I'm not a terribly big fan of option three, if only because the consequences if he's scum are so incredibly high. OTOH, options 1 and 2 are also bad at this point because if he IS doc, despite the scummy read we're getting off him (I dunno, maybe he's played scum in 80% of those games he played on the other site). I'm not sure, but I'm leaning towards action over inaction, especially as I do not yet see a seriously viable alternative (liamcool is an alternative, but it not yet very close to DT on my scumdar).

Someone wanted me to talk about my vote somewhere; sorry, it's midnight after a seriously long day, so I'm not gonna go hunt down. I knew/thought it was L-1 (the post at the top of page 12; I scrolled up, said 5 votes, and I'm just glad nobody voted for him on page 13 or I woulda seriously screwed things up). I said what I said because in both the games I've been in, anyone who puts someone at L-1 on day 1 gets everyone on them like s*** on velcro. Like I said there and said since, I was tired and pissed for several reasons, and didn't think things through as well as I should have before posting.

On a side note, screw high level rangers with Arrows of Slaying at a DC27 Fort or Die. The last combat of my module (D&D adventure) literally ended on the first turn of combat; the guy fired four of those damn arrows into my mounted hobgoblin chargers. The very next person to go Baleful Polymorphed the only remaining person on the field into a small black kitten, which they named Old Wicked (after her god). She even passed the save to retain her mind, but there were two frickin' Fatespinners in the party, and they kept forcing rerolls till she became a kitten in mind and body. Argh.

OOC for a second......DC 27 Arrows of death? How the hell did he get something like those that's BS.....

[Nudude]

In regards to Thanatos's plan.

We need to consider a few things. Do we want to protect the cop (if any) as much as we can and maximise the time he has to investigate? Have him roleclaim as soon as he finds scum? Or a mix of the two, confirm a few townies, maybe one or two scum, and have him roleclaim? And this all of course depends on the cops attitude as well.

The doc/cop roles are very powerful when they work together, the cop can absolve or condem virtually unhindered as the doc secretly keeps him safe. Having a secret cop and a public doc is virtually worthless (As far as I know, if anyone can think of a way this works well let me know).

The only purpose DT, if he is the doc, can serve now is if he gets very lucky and picks the right person to protect, because once the cop outs himself he's dead.

I am convinced DT is scum and role claimed to save his neck. The only reason I haven't pushed for a lynching is because there is no need for it. I can read posts and form thoughts, I just tag onto every thought I have "Bear in mind DT is almost certainly scum".

What I suggest is we do some more investigating, lynch DT when we feel that we've got enough info from D1 (unless obviously evidence arises absolving DT of guilt, or irrevocably condeming someone else), and give the cop a few days to clear/condemn a few people.

I do like the theory of the plan, there's just too many "If's" for me, sorry mate =(.

[Nudude]

What do you all think about it?

It's bone-headed. Even

if

the mafia ignores the claimed doc n1 (and good luck with that), the cop can't investigate me and not tell anyone because the rest of the town's going to want to lynch me within about an hour. He's just wasted an investigation whether I get nightkilled or not.

The point of it is that we take his silence like it's him saying yes.

He can't say yes because he'll be killed the next night.

He can, however, say no, because that means there is still a doctor out there, thus, until the Doctor dies, he is safe.

If we can all agree to this, we can get an answer without revealing the Cop.

Sorry, I missed this thread of logic.

Of course, if DT IS scum, then the real doc is still out there to protect the cop.

Scum have to carefully consider the risk of wasting a NK to attack a protected cop, even if there isn't a doc.

This plan hinges on there being a cop, but I daresay the odds are very much in our favour. Given that you have to eventually take some risk, your usually best off going with the one that gives you the best odds, and considering this, I change my mind.

So far, I'd say it sounds good, but I would like to hear from the other players before we set anything in motion. We've got plenty of time to consider this plan.

[Nudude]

willl read throught posts tomorrow. Am at dad's an unable to do anything......pg 4....

So your here! I'm going to ask a few questions to help you make up. You can avoid situations like this in the future (maybe ) by making sure you contribute regularly.

Here's a few posts:

1.

Hey, I got L-1'd on the first page of my first game. Sometimes people just have a brain fart when they're setting the random votes. I'm still not convinced of anything.

The corollary is that I got lynched on the top of page 4, so maybe that just means that my first game was screwy.

Yeah, I put someone at L-1 because I wasn't thinking and I was the prime suspect for scum for the rest of the game. (when I was in fact the cop)

I agree with you Nudude, that we need people to post regardless of if they have something to post about, else we won't ever find scum.

Here, Infinitive is, IMO, defending DLS after Hang 'em High's vote on her. Afterwards, charter agrees with Infinitive, thus two people are possibly trying to get suspisoun (grr) off DLS.....

2.

-- he merely pointed out a possible connection and didn't go overboard in his conclusions. At this point everything we have to go on is fairly insignificant, so I can hardly blame Vamp for doing so. It's not as if he is advocating a lynch based on this post.

See? I'd say your getting a bit over-defensive.... I didn't even vote or FOS you.... (well, okay. IGMEOY is pretty much the same).

3.

VL using HeH's words to support his own defense is interesting and worthy of note.

However, I agree that what he did isn't lynchworthy.

Unvote

, for now.

What? You say that it's "interestng that" I "used HeH's words to support my own defence", then you say the exact same thing as him and unvote me? That seems a little.... odd to me... FOS

These three posts feel like stretches. The irony is I have to admit this line of questioning is in itself is a stretch( ) but look at this as a chance to explain your reasoning and make up for the lack in contribution.

If you can also provide us with details on everyone and what you think so far, that should give us (or me at least, you have to convince the others yet!) enough to work on....for now .

[Nudude]

Vote Count

deepthought (5)

- Nudude, liamcool, Thanatos, charter, Disciple Slayer
liamcool (3) - Gorgon, Hang'em High, deepthought
Dark_Lady_Shaiann (1)- Lord Nikon
Disciple Slayer (1) - VampyreLord

Not Voting (2) - Infinitive, Dark_Lady_Shaiann

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

While I wait to hear on VL, I can give you your requested analysis Thanatos.

Simply, I wasn't convinced by DT's logic to not go with your plan, and then gorgon changed my mind with a single post.

I don't feel he is the GF at least. A GF would at some point relent, because a) it wastes an investigation and b) makes him look innocent, and DT has been too "Don't investigate me". I feel a sane cops investigation would show us DT's true alignment.

The cop needs to do what they think is best. On one hand, I'd strongly recommend investigating DT if we decide to lynch someone else, even though this may waste an investigation

On the other hand, I'd say don't listen to me and make up your own mind, because if the scum know what your gonna do, then they can plan accordingly, like if they know your going to investigate DT, then they'll be forced to NK him if he is indeed the doc.

[Nudude]

I'd like to hear a bit more from DLS and HeH. What do you think guys?

[Nudude]

See here's the thing, I'm convinced DT is scum, so it makes it hard for me to use what he says in my thought processes. I want to be objective about this, but I everytime I try to ask myself "Assume DT is the real doc, what does X mean?" I feel like I'm I'm trying to apply a logical process to something that is not logical. Metaphoricaly, I feel like I'm asking myself "Assume there is no gravity on Earth, what does X mean?".

I'm having a hard time trying to justify some of DT's actions. He's made a few plays that I could concieve a newbie townie doing, but DT is experienced and knows what he's doing.

In summary, I think he's bluffing.

[Nudude]

Hey guys, just a quick question. Is there any particular rules relating to D0 actions in this format, or does it vary from game to game?

[Nudude]

Hi all! sorry I havn't been here. Was catching up on everything.

DLS/DS Thier argument seemed to be, well, over-defensive townieish behind all the crap so neither are that suspicous in my eyes any more.

unvote

DT has been the favorite to lynch so far, but I'm not worrying that much. I'd rather lynch hjim tomorrow, maybe. I want to lynch....

Thanatos

' posts have almost seemed to me like he's giving fellow scum instrcutions on what to do at night...

By not killing you, the scum has two options. (assuming you're town)

1. They kill you, deciding that you're worth the effort because you're a Doc.

2. They let you live, and kill someone else. By doing this, they have the ability to kill someone else, and then you're almost sure to be dead on D2 or 3. By doing this, they draw alot of suspicion off of themselves, take away a lynch from the town, give us the moral defeat of killing off our own doc, and get one more townie killed than they would have if they killed you.

It's almost like he's telling his scum-buddies to do one of these things, or a quick way to raise a topic to discuss during the night.

Tsk, tsk. Not liking that kind of play at all

vote:Thanatos

.

C'mon VL.... One could explain your stretches of logic early in the game, but there's enough to go off now that you should be able to put together a more convincing case than this.

For starters, why would scum risk discussing strategy in the thread when they can talk about it secretly at night? Even if he is, why would he confuse his scum buddies by giving them mulitple choices?

It sounds like to me Thanatos was putting forward an idea. It is a bit WIFOM, but it is logical and makes sense.

You'll have to do better than that before I let you off the hook. What do you think of everyone so far?

[Nudude]

Yet, I still think DT will give us the most information for a day 1 kill.

Lynching townies "for information" is kind of silly, I'd say.

Still, if that's that, give me a chance to put together a post sometime tomorrow with some added thoughts.

I remember you saying several times you don't mind lynching a townie if their dead weight....god forbid we lynch a townie to get some more information and insight (and that's assuming your town, which I doubt).

[Nudude]

Well.....fuck.

Not only did we lynch the Doc, but we have a potential SK as well.

Based on what was said yesterday, I find VL to be the most suspicious. He's been fairly quiet for most of the game, and Insurgent included VL in his list of suspect scum, so it would make sense for scum to off him so insurgent wouldn't be able to bring his case to us today.

FOS: vampyrelord

I feel HeH was killed simply because he was a pro - townie. I don't have the mental energy to look at it right now ( I will though! ) but reading through his thoughts might yield some clues.

[Nudude]

This is a bad spot for town atm. We have quite a few people, that in my opinion, are not contributing very much at all. The problem is while not all of them are scum, there is almost certainly scum amongst them.

Right now, I define the lurkers as:

DLS
Liamcool
Vampyrelord


Then there's the middle ground. These people do not "Lead" any charges, but are active:

DS
Infinitive
Gorgon
charter
DS

And I think most people agree the most vocal is Thanatos.

I really want to see the lurkers contribute more. One on hand, liamcool does seem a bit scummy, on the other, he seems new to the game. His plays go along with the general consesus, and while a scum may do that, a newbie who doesn't really know the game may do that too. I'm not sure which he is.

As I said, I want to see the lurkers contribute more. No matter how busy you are, you can at least make one post every few days. The less you post, however, the more substansial your post has to be. The town depends on everyone making regular contributions, and your letting us down by lurking.

And I eagerly await VL's response to my question.

[Nudude]

In fact,

MOD, can we get a prod on: Dark_Lady_Shaiann.

She hasn't posted in six days.

[Nudude]

Finally, in regards to analysing HeH's thought's:

He seemd to look at Thanatos and DS alot (though mainly he was saying that DS could be a bit rude sometimes).

To a lesser extent, he looked an infinative and liamcool.

[Nudude]

Thanatos and DLS, you are taking what was a PBP by DS and make it look like he was trying to further some agenda.

I can't see any agenda, all I can see is a PBP of what HeH said. It's not a bust - the - case post, but it's a valid post.

What I find interesting is that you don't merely explain yourself, but your going as far as to attack DS for what started as simply quoting HeH.

I am surprised by Thanatos's and DLS's reaction, it feels like to me your attacking DS rather than weighing up the information he's providing. He mentions a link to DLS, at which point DLS makes her biggest post of the thread.

I'm not quite prepared to say it reeks of scum, but it's almost like you read DS posts, and suddenly felt the need to defend yourselves. If you guys hadn'tve reacted the way you had, I would have read DS's post and thought to myself "Hmmm....food for thought". Where as now I think "Why are these guys being so defensive?"

Chillax guys.

[Nudude]

I'm finding it hard to get a read on DLS, Thanatos and DS at the moment...there's way to much static in there, and I feel the reason is it's a bit confusing trying to figure out what everyone means.

How about you guys list very very clearly and in no uncertain terms exactly what concerns you have so far. To you guys it may seem perfectly clear what your own concerns and questions are, but to the rest of us (maybe just me actually, lol) it's a little hard to sift your questions and concerns.

[Nudude]

Also, due to recent evidence:

Vote: Dark_Lady_Shaiann

[Nudude]

I believe I've done just that about 3 different times by now, Nudude.

As I said before, it may be perfectly clear to you, and other people, but it is not clear to me. It maybe because I'm slow, or stupid or any number of reasons, it's not in my nature to place blame, it's in my nature to find solutions.

Personally, am having a hard time trying to figure out, at this point in time, exactly what it is yourself, DS and DLS want from each other, and judging by the posts you three have made to each other, you yourselves are having a hard time trying to ascertain exactly what it is you want explained.

My best interpretation, so far, before clarifications and definitions, leads me to think DLS sounds scummy, but I admit it is based on a less than clear interpretation of facts so far.

What I would like to see is the post you each are concerned with quoted, simply saying "Go back and read it yourself" isn't good enough.

We've all made lots of posts, and if someone can't be bothered clicking on "Quote" and bolding or cutting and pasting what they're asking about, why should I be bothered trying to read your posts and interpret which one your question relates to the most?

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, and I know some people have made more of an effort to be clearer than other people, and I'm not saying that all of you haven't made an effort to be clear.

I'm just saying that I am having a hard time trying to figure out what exactly everyone is asking for, and if they wouldn't mind trying to explain it to me.

[Nudude]

For clarification, I've voted for DLS because she made her biggest post debating the link between her and Thanatos. I think a townie would make bigger posts in regardings to hunting scum, not defending themselves.

Rather than debate the pros and cons, you debase his posts and call his evidence craplogic.

For example, I could say "Guys, there's been three or four pages of discussion between DLS, DS and Thanatos. There is more than enough evidence there to make a vote on DLS. I think your attacking me because me and DS are on to something and your trying to make it seem like we don't have a case." I could even whack in a FOS for good measure.

Instead, I'm saying your quite right to question me and ask for my reasoning. I don't try to debase you or call your logic crap. I accept that it is a reasonable stance and explain myself.

DS's line of questioning is reasonable, and I don't understand why you would think otherwise. That is why I'm asking for you to clarify for me what exactly it is you are concerned about so I'm not mis interpreting or mis understanding anyone or anything.

[Nudude]

*sigh* fair enough. I'm just annoyed that I've been doing it a ton for DS and now I need to do it again.

Before I begin, 2 thing. 1. I want nothing from DLS, and have generally been ignoring her through this. If you want my opinion, I think there's too much tension between her and DS to get a clear read. 2. It shouldn't be considered scummy, in and of it self, to go to lengths to defend yourself.

Just try to follow my logic for this, I know it needs you to assume I'm town, but just for the moment: I know I'm town. If the town lynches me, we're in a horrible position and we are likely going to lose. DS could be scum, taking advantage of my vulnerability after the DT lynch.

This is the case for me. I dislike arguing things based on my alignment, but there's nothing else I can use to explain it. For me, at least, attacking me based on the information he has is scummy. I think the same is true for DLS. I defend myself because I think that I can use it to figure out if DS is scum, and get others to agree with me.

Ok, onto what I want. Please, so I know that, unlike DS, you won't write me off, address all the points I make.

1. I hadn't looked through everything DS wrote before I FOSed. I believed he was building a case against me on the three posts he made. This turned out to not be the case. This is where I over rereacted.

2. for the first two posts, I read them as him saying "HeH had suspicions about Thanatos, so Thanatos had a reason to kill him off." when when HeH's posts were about S_K's lurking, which, considering she was replaced because of work taking too much time, is, as I said, CRAPLOGIC. I don't understand why this, my original point in the first place, is a point of contention. However, understand that this was what I read when I FOSed him. If I saw him doing the same thing to you, I would have done the same thing.

3. For his third post, I wonder why everyone except for Infinitive has ignored the fact that I showed how HeH withdrawed any suspicions he had of me within the next five posts. This is the main reason I voted him. I think that, if DS was really looking for scum, as opossed to just looking for someone to Lynch, or at the very least, using bad logic to find a lynch, he would have withdrawn that post after that one, or mentioned it, or at least admitted that it removed the validity of his third quoted post! His ignoring of it is the main reason I voted on him. Also, note how he is STILL contuing to ignore it, after it's been posted twice and the first post was mentioned on page 22, and referanced multiple times thereafter. It makes me think either he's not really reading his reasponces or he simply doesn't care

4. Just for clearification around my vote, I'll repost this [qoute]1. I noted how you ignored information related to your third link, and CONTINUE to ignore it now.

2. I wanted to vote for somebody. That's the simple truth. There arn't alot of votes going around at the moment, and I thought I should put mine out.

3. It's a hunch. I think you've been acting rather scummy, and I wanted to let it be known that I thought that way. [/qoute]

That's why I've been voting him. I think it's a good enough reason. Do you disagree?

Thank you Thanatos, for your patience. I know it can be frustrating having to repeat yourself several times because someone doesn't understand you, but your post clears things up alot for me.

1. Fair enough, reasonable explanation.

2. No harm in voting. TBH I think I should have been more active with my voting my first day, and I will be using my vote more often in the future. This is my first game and I'm still trying to iron out my technique .

3. TBH I think we've all been acting a bit scummy, but that doesn't mean I neccesarily think all of you are scum, that's what I'm trying to figure out.

I don't disagree with your logic, nor do I think it's unreasonable to have a vote on DS.

[Nudude]

You attacked DS for his assumption ie. that there is a link between you and Thanatos. His assumption is a stretch, I'm the first to admit that, but it could also be that he simply he threw some bait out, and you bit!

Later on you make this post:

Are you assuming that simply because I defended S_K that I shall now defend Thanatos, because HeH hinted that there was a possible link between me and S_K becuase I defended her

and we had consecutive votes on the player who died N1?

I never said anything about you two having consecutive votes on the doctor who got mislynched N1. It could mean something. It could mean nothing. I don't know. That's why I posted HeH's votes and FOSs, to gauge reactions of players in an attempt to figure out what the hell is going on here.

Moving on to a different topic.

Whatever happened to those suspicions you had of me? Post them now, while you're still online.

OK..now you are trying to instigate something.

Basically, I agreed with what you are doing and you are taunting me about something completely different, basically knowing that it's going to start a figh

t. Alright, you have fun with that. I'll respond to this particular post anyway.

First of all, I didn't say anyting about the doctor (DT). I was talking about Lord Nikon/Insurgent who got NKed, and that S_K and I had consecutive votes on, which actually ended getting cleared up and HeH's suspicions lifted off of me. I was stating the entire story just to let you know that I am aware of what happaned and how it looked, since it seemed that you were basing that comment off of previous DLS/S_K talk, but obviously you didn't know the whole story so don't act like I'm pointing out somethign new, it was already there. Second of all, you didn't say anything about it specifically. HeH did, and since your using his points as an attack method, you must believe them.

The bolded text is you telling DS your not going to let yourself be drawn into another arguement. That's a good thing, however

you let yourself

be drawn into an arguement when you argued so strongly against DS's inital assumption, that there is a link to you and Thanatos.

You only take a step back from the arguement when DS ask's you about the suspicions you have of him, saying that he is trying to draw you into an arguement. Why get drawn into an arguement based on a stretch of logic in the first place ie. that there is a link between you and Thanatos, and then when DS asks you a completely reasonable question ie. tell me more about your suspiscions of me, you say "I'm not getting into an arguement?".

It would make more sense to me if you had said "Your just trying to bait me into an arguement" to DS's first assumption of there being a link (which I would have agreed with you) and answered DS's question of "Why are you suspicious of me?".

My next point:

Your assumption is, because I don't understand what points your trying to make, I'm lazy and clearly I didn't read them properly. I may not be intelligent enough to interpret what you mean with your posts, but that does not make me lazy. I could say that you are lazy because you are not willing to summarise your defense, but I find that personal attacks only create heated arguements and ruin things for everyone.

Let me ask you this: Before a debate, you would obviously prepare points to make during the debate (Unless your the third speaker, in which case you'd spend more time refuting) as a good team mate, you'd show your points to your team mates and give a read of your speech.

Pretend I'm your team mate. I've read and heard what you've said, and I'm saying "I'm sorry DLS, but I have to be honest. Too me, your speech doesn't make much sense. I'm not quite to sure what your points are."

Now if you want, you can run with the speech anyways, you don't have to change or clarify it, and I certainly can't force you. All I'm doing is saying that I don't understand what your points are or what exactly your trying to say. It's your choice entirely.

On that note, you have spent alot of time refuting points, but making very little of your own. I would like to see from you a bit more information on who you find suspicious and why.

[Nudude]

I don't have a problem answering your questions. What I have a problem with is the fact that you voted me, but don't really seem to understand why. All this says to me is that you are basically voting me becuase I have explained myself and then asked me to re-explain myself but in simpler terms. Thats not fair and it doesn't really seem to make much sense. If you don't understand something, ask me, don't just vote me with evidence you feel is substantial and then ask me to tell you whether or not your right.


Your partially right about the bolded text. I didn't so much mind about geting in another debate with him, and I didn't really back down, I just didn't want to get into that one cause he was baiting me to change the subject. Thats what I refused to do. I refused to change the subject. As far as my suspicions of him go, I already stated earlier that I wasn't going to say anything until I found more effective evidence, so of course I'm not going to go right back to the flame war becuase that was where it all started for me.

To me it just feels like you have voted me for no reason, or a reason you don't really understand, like you have another agenda. It doesn't seem like your trying to make it feel like a pressure vote. If you really wanted to play fair and nice (which it kind of seems like you are doing) you would take your vote off of me and then wait to hear my points that you are asking for and then decide if that is basis enough to vote me, since you really don't seem to understand what is going on and have basically admitted that.

Fair enough. I haven't voted for you simply because your reasoning and logic isn't clear to me, and I certainly wouldn't want you lynched at this point in time.

For the moment, I can't point to a particular post and say "This is what has made me suspicious", it just that it feels like to me you put so much effort in defending yourself, and very little into scum hunting.

It could be for many reasons. Maybe that's the part of the game you enjoy, defending yourself and picking apart the cases people build against you, regardless if your scum or not. Maybe you simply enjoy arguing. Maybe you've read everyone's post and just can't find anything on which to base a reasonable case. Maybe it's none of those reasons, I don't know.

It could also be because your scum, and it's easier to sit back and wait for a bandwagon to build a case on the back of, rather than draw suspicion by spearheading a case against a townie. It's impossible to know someones true alignment untill they're lynched, everything before that is educated guesses at best.

My list of suspects includes Thanatos, Gorgon, Disciple Slayer and liamcool so far, for reasons I will explain when I get around to them.

I feel a serious mistake I made D1 was not looking at more people. Once I had decided DT was scum, I stuck by my guns, and it ultimately was a mistake. Having said that, I don't want you to feel safe, I still am prepared to stick by my guns if the case against you gets strong enough.

[Nudude]

On a seperate note,

I don't make this kind of post very often, but Disciple Slayer, I don't find your signature funny, clever or anything than could be associated with any positive words.

Bear in mind, when you were given a choice between multiple people to vote, you choose the person who you found to be the most unpleasant.

[Nudude]

On a seperate note,

I don't make this kind of post very often, but Disciple Slayer, I don't find your signature funny, clever or anything than could be associated with any positive words.

Bear in mind, when you were given a choice between multiple people to vote, you choose the person who you found to be the most unpleasant.

Hear hear. That kind of stuff is just rude, and can get people (like me) in trouble for having played on breaks at work. If someone goes and sees that while I'm playing and feels uncomfortable, it's sexual harassment.

I'd appreciate it if you changed your sig, DS. Thanks.

Now, Nudude, you've been kind of hard on several people over the course of several posts recently, and you said in your last post that you'd post the reasons when you got around to them. In fairness, I think that they deserve to see the reasons behind your accusations when you're saying the stuff you're saying around them. In addition, the game has slowed a bit, so levying a couple more suspicions might get things to pick up a bit.

C'mon, people, post!

Thanks for being at my back lol.

Now be fair, I am doing my fair share of discussion generating, and I will get around to my list of suspects, but for the moment I'd rather focus on one person at a time.

[Nudude]

DLS, has there ever been an indication that I don't put effort into this game. I'm enjoying this game, I have all the energy in the world for this game....could it be, just possbily, the reason I'm asking you to be a little clearer in your points, or even a simple, easy to read summary, is because I want to understand what points your trying to make? If we were face to face, I'd ask "Look me in the eye and tell me you geniunely believe I'm a lazy player". Could you do it? On that note, does anyone else think I'm a lazy player?

Do you remember this post?

Well...it is a mini, my first mini, and when the game was going really fast I kind of just skimmed to see if anything was being said about me, and then some how I came across some one elses vote for Lord Nikon, and that was when his name stuck out to me. So....I was just being really careless and fairly newbish. I apologize and will be sure to actually read everything.

Even if you are correct in my assumption that I've simply not been bothered reading your posts, your guilty of it as well!

As I said, it's your choice wether you choose to clarify things, but so far your not doing much to allay my suspicions.

Even after I point out that you spend alot of time defending yourself, and very little scum hunting, you continue to simply defend yourself and not bring anything new to the discussion.

Even if you choose not to clarify your points, and before you accuse me of being lazy, can you at least put in a little effort yourself to reading posts and finding scum, instead of just sitting back and defending yourself when neccesary?

[Nudude]

EBWOP:

Even if you are correct in my assumption that I've simply not been bothered reading your posts, your guilty of it as well!

Should read:

Even if you are correct in

your

assumption that I've simply not been bothered reading your posts, your guilty of it as well!

[Nudude]

Vote Count

Thanatos (2) - Gorgon, Disciple Slayer
liamcool (1) - charter
Disciple Slayer (1) - Thanatos
Dark_Lady_Shaiann (1) - Nudude

Not Voting (4) - Dark_Lady_Shaiann, liamcool, Infinitive, VampyreLord

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Thanatos:

I'm kinda busy at the moment, but I just wanted to chime in with Signing on DS' sig.

I'd like to note that Nudude also missed my post in regards to the questions he was asking me. If he's putting as much effort as he claims, it's a weird habit, especially when both times are in assisting DS. Just curious, is all...

I thanked you and replied to your post in post 607. I found your post to be satisfactory, so I didn't comment on it in particular. Was it another post you were refering to?

[Nudude]

Disciple Slayer

BTW, I see my sig as:

Dark_Lazy_Shaiaan: And...yeah, your right.

Disciple Slayer: I usually am.

I changed the big black cock one a while back

I was refering to your current sig.

[Nudude]

To everyone,

I admit I'm being agressive in my question, but everyone can admit that the strategy needed to be employed to sift out scum is applying pressure, which I am doing. I'm not calling for people to rally to my cause, to put a vote on, or even agree with me. In fact, I'd encourage you to conduct your own individual investigations.

If someone is scum, their not going to make mistakes with light easy questions. I am putting pressure on DLS because I suspect she's scum.

DLS, has there ever been an indication that I don't put effort into this game. I'm enjoying this game, I have all the energy in the world for this game....could it be, just possbily, the reason I'm asking you to be a little clearer in your points, or even a simple, easy to read summary, is because I want to understand what points your trying to make? If we were face to face, I'd ask "Look me in the eye and tell me you geniunely believe I'm a lazy player". Could you do it? On that note, does anyone else think I'm a lazy player?

Do you remember this post?

Well...it is a mini, my first mini, and when the game was going really fast I kind of just skimmed to see if anything was being said about me, and then some how I came across some one elses vote for Lord Nikon, and that was when his name stuck out to me. So....I was just being really careless and fairly newbish. I apologize and will be sure to actually read everything.

Even if you are correct in my assumption that I've simply not been bothered reading your posts, your guilty of it as well!

As I said, it's your choice wether you choose to clarify things, but so far your not doing much to allay my suspicions.

Even after I point out that you spend alot of time defending yourself, and very little scum hunting, you continue to simply defend yourself and not bring anything new to the discussion.

Even if you choose not to clarify your points, and before you accuse me of being lazy, can you at least put in a little effort yourself to reading posts and finding scum, instead of just sitting back and defending yourself when neccesary?

Ok, but what I'm not guily of is voting some one after skimming pages, which is where I have the problem with what you are doing. I'm not accusing you of being lazy because you skimmed, I'm accusing you of voting me after skimming and then asking me to go back and check everything for you. Thats not fair.

I explained my vote in this post.

For clarification, I've voted for DLS because she made her biggest post debating the link between her and Thanatos. I think a townie would make bigger posts in regardings to hunting scum, not defending themselves.

Rather than debate the pros and cons, you debase his posts and call his evidence craplogic.

For example, I could say "Guys, there's been three or four pages of discussion between DLS, DS and Thanatos. There is more than enough evidence there to make a vote on DLS. I think your attacking me because me and DS are on to something and your trying to make it seem like we don't have a case." I could even whack in a FOS for good measure.

Instead, I'm saying your quite right to question me and ask for my reasoning. I don't try to debase you or call your logic crap. I accept that it is a reasonable stance and explain myself.

DS's line of questioning is reasonable, and I don't understand why you would think otherwise. That is why I'm asking for you to clarify for me what exactly it is you are concerned about so I'm not mis interpreting or mis understanding anyone or anything.

So either you've been lazy reading posts, despite earlier in the game promising you'd have more diligence or your trying to mis - represent the facts.

If your trying to mis - represent me, your scum.

I also note you STILL haven't been able to provide any other evidence to indicate anyone else is scum. I would suggest you read some previous posts in this game and see if you can find anything.

[Nudude]

Sorry for not posting sooner, was busy with school and thanksgiving (without power...).

Vote Count

Thanatos (2) - Gorgon, Disciple Slayer
liamcool (1) - charter
Disciple Slayer (1) - Thanatos

Not Voting (5) - Dark_Lady_Shaiann, liamcool, Infinitive, Nudude, VampyreLord

Which comment would that be?

And...yeah, your right.

I usually am.

Watch the egotism, it's not nice for anyone to read, it just makes people think you're an arsehole and makes the game unpleasant for everyone.

I just gave a PBPA and you FOS me for quoting the words of a dead townie? I think your reasoning is flawed. Here's a vote to pressure you into more information.

Vote: Thanatos

Now watch as DLS rushes to defend him in her next post.

I'm actually pretty suprised nobody picked up on this, while it's true we need more information, this seems a little drastic.

Post a good reply to my third and longest HeH quote and I might unvote you if you convince me. My vote was initially a pressure vote, but gut instinct tells me your reaction smells rather odd.

Blackmail, it appears that Disciple Slayer is taking a very aggressive approach, in my view, similar to what deepthought took, which obviously led to his death. Even if it is unlikely, I hope you realise this may lead to your own demise.

If this makes no sense, it's due to me not getting enough sleep recently. If you need to enquire about anything in it, feel free to ask me in about 12-14 hours from this post.

It makes sense, but is entirely pointless. Post something with even a sliver of content or scumhunting if you want me to take my vote off you and stop pushing for others to vote for you.

Also, due to recent evidence:

Vote: Dark_Lady_Shaiann

What evidence?

I was kind of wondering that myself. If you mean where she said she wasn't posting until everyone else posted, and then she did anyway, it was very obvious to me that it wasn't a "lie" she just had something to say and didn't feel like waiting on people like me busy with life.

Personally, I think DS is town. He's doing a LOT of looking for scum, though I don't really agree with all the points he's making, he is making a colossal effort. That said, I also think DLS and thanatos are also town based on how calmly they're handling his aggressive investigation.

I still think liamcool is scum for the reasons I mentioned before, he hasn't done anything to try and explain himself, or even acknowledge my existance. Unless Nudude grossly overeacted to DLS's posts, he'd be my number two suspect right now.

I'd say that's a fair assesment. I like to think so far my questioning of DLS has been logical. If you or anyone finds a flaw in my logic, then by all means point it out so we can discuss it.

[Nudude]

ok...so you voted me becuase I made a long post in defense of myself and becuase you claim that I debased DS's posts and called his evidence crapologic.

The first one I will agree with. It's a long post, big whoop. Did you forget who I was responding to and the history we have? The second one however, never happaned. I already explained that to you, just like how I had to explain it to DS like 3 times. The fact that you keep ignoring that point makes me very suspicious of you. I would suggest you acknowledge that part and think your vote over.

It's because it's a long post in defense of yourself, and if you read my post fully, you see it is NOT why I voted for you, but evidence for the reason I voted for you, which is it seems the only time you make substainsial posts is to defend yourself.

If you put as much energy into hunting scum as you do when defending yourself, the game would be over already with a townie victory.

I'm suspicious of you for that reason, that you will fight tooth and nail against people making cases against you, compared to the very little energy you put into scumhunting.

I apologise, it was Thanatos that used the words 'crap' and 'logic' in the same sentence, not you. However you clearly don't agree on DS's assesment either, and even then I wouldn't vote for someone just because they used the words 'crap' and/or 'logic' in the same sentence. It is not the reason I voted for you anyway.

I vote for you because you put lots of energy on defending yourself, and very little into scum hunting.

For the third time I'm going to suggest you have a read over the thread and see if you can find anything that you suspect is scummy, and bring it to our attention.

Seeing as how my arguement is based on the fact that you have done very little scum hunting, it would go a long way to debase my case.

Now there are only a couple of reasons I can think of you haven't yet done this:

1) You simply missed it in my posts:

You accused and condemned me for not fully reading your posts! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

2) You ignore my requests:

Is it an unreasonable request? If so, what would be an acceptable compromise?

[Nudude]

Nudude, I'd like to ask you a question, but before I do so, allow me to offer a touch of commentary.

I find your questioning to be interesting. You've been pushing DLS quite hard over the past couple of pages, provoking some responses that are interesting to me. I haven't bought her defense yet, but, on the other hand, I feel that you're pushing against a person rather than a set of actions. To clarify, it seems to me as if you're putting the screws to DLS more intensely than, in my opinion, her actions would justify. You have noted this, and said that this is simply a playstyle of yours. This leads me to an observation.

Where was this hardcore interrogation on day 1? I don't mean to say that you're scum, but I certainly did not notice this sort of really heavy accuse-and-answer from you before day 2. It seems just a bit odd that you're throwing around your weight so suddenly.

Now, onto my question, and it's a fairly simple one. I have for some time been an advocate of examining Liamcool, and still contend that he is almost certainly scum. However, he has in a very real way ducked under the table on day 2, and as such have given us little to work with, or to provoke discussion. My question is this: Why do you find DLS or Thanatos (as you were questioning both) to be more suspicious than Liamcool? Liam was DT's prime suspect, and HEH also commented a couple of times on the troubling behavior he exhibited. I can't speak for Insurgent, as he wasn't here for long, but it seems to me that the scummiest person to survive day 1 was unquestionably Liamcool (as our suspicion of Thanatos mostly stems from the sour lynch), and I'm honestly surprised that more people aren't interested in investigating him.

I have admitted earlier that I am pushing DLS hard, the reason being that I believe soft questioning doesn't yield results. DLS is not going to be the only person I push hard today, never fear

I'm going to quote a post of yours infinitive,

On a seperate note,

I don't make this kind of post very often, but Disciple Slayer, I don't find your signature funny, clever or anything than could be associated with any positive words.

Bear in mind, when you were given a choice between multiple people to vote, you choose the person who you found to be the most unpleasant.

Hear hear. That kind of stuff is just rude, and can get people (like me) in trouble for having played on breaks at work. If someone goes and sees that while I'm playing and feels uncomfortable, it's sexual harassment.

I'd appreciate it if you changed your sig, DS. Thanks.

Now, Nudude, you've been kind of hard on several people over the course of several posts recently, and you said in your last post that you'd post the reasons when you got around to them. In fairness, I think that they deserve to see the reasons behind your accusations when you're saying the stuff you're saying around them.

In addition, the game has slowed a bit, so levying a couple more suspicions might get things to pick up a bit.

C'mon, people, post!

I'm not going to say there is no reason to think I'm scummy, but in my defense, it has put a fire under the conversation now hasn't it? If you read my posts and find a flaw in my logic, then by all means ask me about it, ask me the hard questions.

If however, your going to vote for me because I'm putting the screws on DLS, I'd ask you to consider the fact that my posts are generating discussion, and I did this even though I knew it would make me look scummy, but the trade off is we get alot more to look at.

[Nudude]

Nudude, I'd like to ask you a question, but before I do so, allow me to offer a touch of commentary.

I find your questioning to be interesting. You've been pushing DLS quite hard over the past couple of pages, provoking some responses that are interesting to me. I haven't bought her defense yet, but, on the other hand, I feel that you're pushing against a person rather than a set of actions. To clarify, it seems to me as if you're putting the screws to DLS more intensely than, in my opinion, her actions would justify. You have noted this, and said that this is simply a playstyle of yours. This leads me to an observation.

Where was this hardcore interrogation on day 1? I don't mean to say that you're scum, but I certainly did not notice this sort of really heavy accuse-and-answer from you before day 2. It seems just a bit odd that you're throwing around your weight so suddenly.

Now, onto my question, and it's a fairly simple one. I have for some time been an advocate of examining Liamcool, and still contend that he is almost certainly scum. However, he has in a very real way ducked under the table on day 2, and as such have given us little to work with, or to provoke discussion. My question is this: Why do you find DLS or Thanatos (as you were questioning both) to be more suspicious than Liamcool? Liam was DT's prime suspect, and HEH also commented a couple of times on the troubling behavior he exhibited. I can't speak for Insurgent, as he wasn't here for long, but it seems to me that the scummiest person to survive day 1 was unquestionably Liamcool (as our suspicion of Thanatos mostly stems from the sour lynch), and I'm honestly surprised that more people aren't interested in investigating him.

Sorry Infinitive, I just woke up and missed the main question of your post.

My style has changed from D1. I think a mistake we made was that we decided DT was scum, and stuck with it. I think that was because people might have been afraid to spear head a case because it made them look scummy. I'm putting the screws in DLS at the moment, but I assure you I will be focusing on other people today and I will be analsying them and questioning them just as hard.

There were lots of people we suspected on D1, but noone investigated them. In a way, I kind of blame the people who didn't suspect DT, but did nothing to investigate other people. Accepting my share of the blame, I should have focused on more players.

I'm not saying if you didn't vote for DT your scum, or visa versa, simply that if people had said "Well, DT looks scummy, but I think X is also scummy" and then pursued that investigation, we'd have maybe lynched scum D1, or at least have more information.

In regards to my list of suspects, I want to keep my list of suspects secret, because as soon as I post that list people will start asking the why's and what for's, and I want to focus on one person at a time. I will say, however, that after I'm done with DLS, I will be taking a closer look at DS.

Finally, if you want to take a look at someone else than DLS, please by all means do so. I've said it once and I'll say it again, I'm not asking anyone to vote for DLS, or even agree with me. In fact, if you think there is someone else, look into it and investigate. Right now, I'm focusing on DLS. Most likely by next page I will be focusing on DS. If you think someone else is scummy, then investigate!

[Nudude]

Ok.....I had a nice little speech prepared in response to your post, but when I went back up to read it again for like the third time, I noticed something.

It's because it's a long post in defense of yourself, and if you read my post fully, you see it is NOT why I voted for you, but evidence for the reason I voted for you, which is it seems the only time you make substainsial posts is to defend yourself.

I vote for you because you put lots of energy on defending yourself, and very little into scum hunting.

OK, reasons and evidence are almost the same thing. Basically you took it into account when you decided to vote me, so it's a reason, not the only reason, but it's in there somewhere. Thats a discussion DS and I had quite a few times aswell.....

I can only translate this as me defending myself didn't at first make you want to vote me, but now that your second reason is gone, it is obviously enough now. Did you ever maybe consider that defense is the greatest offense? I have never slipt up in my explinations/defenses or whatever the Hell you want to call them, but both you and DS have slipt in your attacks against me, and admitted it. I think I might be on to something here.

Reasons and evidence are different. The reason person A shot person B was because he wanted his wallet. The evidence is a video tape of the event.

The reason I voted for you is because I think your scum trying to get townies lynched and NK'ed. The evidence is because you continue to refuse to do any scum hunting, or even make a compromise. Further evidence is many posts in you make in your defense, the one that I first noticed being the long post you made in reply to DS's accusation, and the very few (if any) posts you use to hunt scum.

Having said that, nit picking the correct words to make a sentence doesn't help anyone.

DLS, this game is not about winning arguements. If with your next post if you can show me some honest to goodness scum hunting, or can at least suggest a compromise, I will freely admit you the winner of our debate because I will clearly be wrong about you and scum hunting.

I feel the reason you haven't so far is because it will feel like to you in some way conceding defeat. Consider, however, that I will not only back down and admit I was wrong and you were right, but if your really town then it will end this arguement and I'll move onto the next person and stop wasting time on you. Because if your town, then you know I'm wasting my energy in this discussion, and will want me to focus on someone who may be scum.

[Nudude]

Whoa, VL uses the same dodgy "DLS said 'I lied' and lying is bad!" argument that DS uses. Don't like it.

The reason I voted for you is because I think your scum trying to get townies lynched and NK'ed. The evidence is because you continue to refuse to do any scum hunting, or even make a compromise. Further evidence is many posts in you make in your defense, the one that I first noticed being the long post you made in reply to DS's accusation, and the very few (if any) posts you use to hunt scum.

While I agree that DLS has been extremely defensive, how does this further an agenda of getting townies lynched? Just for clarification, please.

I'm not going to vote for you yet, because the day is still young, but rest assured that it will be there when we're done checking other people out.

So, you're going to look at other people, but still vote him when you're done with that? 'Cause that's how this reads to me. Why not just vote him now? This seems a little off to me. I agree with the rest of your post, though.

I was just clarifying the difference betweens reasons and evidence.

The reason scum do anything is because they are trying to get townies killed. The evidence is in their posts.

Does that clear things up?

[Nudude]

Holy macaroni.....VL while I appreciate you made a sacrifice to save a townie....I'd hardly say liamcool was close to lynching, suspected yes but definetely too early to say. TBH, if you had investigated me and found me innocent, I'd rather you let me hang than out yourself just to save me, especially with the knowledge the doc is dead.

I get the feeling we're going to get to D3 with no pro townie power roles left. If on the off chance there is another power role DO NOT CLAIM unless the world is going to explode (lol).

[Nudude]

Well here's my two cents.

I'm inclined to believe VL's claim. For a scum to out themselves and a partner because there was some light pressure is an insane play for scum, though mind you, you could argue it was an insane play for a cop to out themselves to prove someone innocent (lol).

I'm leaning to VL being a cop myself.

VL: I don't see any point in lynching him. There is no way scum are going to let a cop live, the confusion it may sow simply doesn't outweigh the ability to not only find scum, but to also prove people innocent.

liamcool: He's been proven innocent, however as some people have pointed out, it could just mean he is the GF. Having a look back through the posts, I can't see anytime anyone seemingly sided with him or supported him at all.

It could be scum are distancing themselves, but I feel at some point somewhere someone would have helped him out, but noone did. Maybe I missed something, and even if I'm 100% right with this it doesn't prove liamcool isn't the GF, but I'm leaning to liamcool being an inexperienced townie.

[Nudude]

This is actually not the case- Disciple Slayer and DLS have not yet responded.

I'm waiting to see if DLS is willing to accept a compromise. Maybe she's just been busy, or maybe she's hoping the recent turn of events has made me forget about her.

[Nudude]

I'l have more thoughts later, (I have a movie to catch) but for the moment:

Unvote

It's likely there's at least two scum, and if they haven't voted they could hammer DLS, and I'm not ready for that yet.

[Nudude]

I'l have more thoughts later, (I have a movie to catch) but for the moment:

Unvote

It's likely there's at least two scum, and

if

they haven't voted they could hammer DLS, and I'm not ready for that yet.

Are you assuming there's no scum voting for her already?

Underlined for emphasis. It's entirely possible scum have placed a vote on DLS.

[Nudude]

Just for clarification, I Unvote ed, so DLS only has two votes on her.

[Nudude]

Ok, no-ones posted for a few days. I have some thoughts, but first I want to make sure everyone is has read and is up to date with the thread. Can everyone just post a "Yep I'm here?" or something to that effect?

[Nudude]

Vote Count

Thanatos (3)

- Gorgon, VampyreLord, charter
Dark_Lady_Shaiann (2) - Disciple Slayer, Thanatos

Not Voting (4) - Dark_Lady_Shaiann, Infinitive, liamcool, Nudude

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

MOD: Can we get a prod on Dark Lady Shaiann?

DLS, I don't really want to lynch you at the moment. I want to give you a chance to allay my suspiciouns. I know it can feel frustrating being pushed into a corner and it feeling like everyone is against you.

I have a confession to make. I didn't really suspect you of being scum at the start. I was putting pressure on you because I was curious as to how particular people would react to it, and it was THEM I suspected of being scum, not you.

Having said that, I did such a good job of it I'm now not so certain! Maybe you are scum. You dig in your heels and refuse to scum hunt, only make substainsial posts when someone accuses you and have been lurking for a few days now, which feels like your hoping my attention on you will just fall away.

Here's the prediciment I'm in. I was almost certain my original suspects were scum, but with your reactions now I'm not so sure if I've got it right.

What I need from you is to do something, ANYTHING to allay my suspicions. I'll even tell you exactly what to do.

Do some scum hunting, give me your thoughts on who's who. That's all I want, a few lines on what you think of each person, maybe ask them about some posts they've made.

If you are town, I beg and plead with you to do this, because at the moment you are looking very scummy, and I will be basing my further investigations on that.

If I'm wrong, you need to do something to correct me

now

, or I'm going to be chasing red herrings for the rest of the game.

[Nudude]

I already gave you my explination, but obviously it's not enough for you. The long and short of it is, convential scum hunting doesn't work for me. Check my other games.

Well you have presented what you would define as an explanation. Do you feel it's more important you understand what your saying, or the person your trying to explain to?

Your scum hunting method, to my understanding, is picking holes in logic when people put some evidence to you. By refusing to do at least some form of scum hunting is like insisting on using a push bike in a motor car race. Sure you can do it, but it's very, very ineffective and puts you at a serious disadvantage.

What if we all played like that? Just sat back waiting for people to attack us? Then noone would say anything. If you really want to be a good townie, I'd strongly suggest that you consider changing you playstyle to incorporate at least a small amount of conventional scum hunting.

Your style lets the townie team down DLS, and it means the rest of us have to pick up the slack. Pouring through posts is hard work, but that's part of being a townie. Your like the kid in school who on a research team lets their teammates do all the research while they relax. I'm going to let this investigation go for now, because I want to have a look at more than one person today.

If your scum, you've dug yourself into a hole you may not be able to climb out of. If your town, I'm very disapointed you put so little effort into helping us win the game. If we do win, it won't be because of anything you've done.

[Nudude]

Now to my next suspect.

Disciple Slayer, you argued early today that there was a link between DLS and Thanatos, and you felt pretty strongly about that link.

So what do you think about Thanatos's vote on DLS?

[Nudude]

If discussion hasn't picked up by Tuesday, I may consider imposing a deadline.

This is why I've been very forward with my questions so far. DS has asked I wait untill Wednesday, and that's a reasonable request, so I'm waiting untill Wednesday.

C'mon guys, do some reading, form some ideas, and chase them!

[Nudude]

I apologise for my silence. I have to confess it was due to simple laziness on my part. It took me awhile to build up the energy to re-read the enitre thread.

These are the players as it stands:

Dark_Lady_Shaiann
Thanatos
Disciple Slayer
Infinitive
Nudude
Gorgon
charter

Now odds are (and emphasis that this is the most likely scenario, but not 100% certain and to base any deductions you make knowing that) VL and liamcool are town, or at the very least not the best lynches for today. Additionally, your suspect lists may include me, however as I'm sure you can appreciate, I'm not going to include myself, so the new list is:

Dark_Lady_Shaiann
Thanatos
Disciple Slayer
Infinitive
Gorgon
charter

Now lets assume there's three mafia, and one SK (I doubt we have a vig, or if we do they need to lay of the booze before they pick a target) that means odds are only two innocent people on that list.

DLS: Has essentially lurked all game, I'm leaning to scum in one form or another.

Thanatos: If you have a read over the thread, Thanatos has actually spear - headed very few investigations, and in actual fact only really jumped on bandwagons with his votes. The only time he placed the first vote was early today when he voted DS. It feels like to me you and DS had a chat in the night and decided you two would point fingers at each other early D2 to distance each other.

DS: You suspected Thanatos and DLS fairly strongly, and you've gone from strongly suspecting Thanatos to quietly accepting his vote on DLS. Every other time someone you suspected as being scummy did something, you would go into great detail and effort to show that why someone who was scum would act that way. Why have you suddenly lost interest in Thanatos?

Inifinitive: I feel you've been fairly unbiased this game. Your either a very good scum player or town. I need more to work with to figure you out.

Gorgon: Playing like Infinitive, but you seem a little more objective. Like infinitive I'm going to need more information, but I suspect I will figure you out sooner than Infinitive.

charter: Correct me if I'm wrong (and by all means do so, I couldn't help but skim some parts of this thread), but I had a very hard time finding anything you posted something that casts suspision on Thanatos or DS. Could be nothing, or it could be your trying to avoid getting a discussion going on them.

I know I promised to grill DS, But as I'm sure you can appreciate when scum knows your plan of attack, you've got to change tactics.

[Nudude]

Thanatos, if I remember correctly, it was DS who started the DLS investigation, well to be more specific he was investigating you and DLS.

On the flip - side, if it was who you somehow started the investigation on DLS, DS was very quick to take your side, despite you being suspect #1 on his list.

DS puts out some bait regarding a link between you (Thanatos) and DLS. DLS becomes very defensive, and DS starts building a case on DLS's over - defensiveness.

I also investigate DLS, and bring attention to the fact she has done very little scum hunting.

Then you say this:

I react so strongly because you kept ignoring it, but honestly, I stopped caring a while back..

And yes, I scum hunted. Right up till the claim, I was looking at VL and Liam. The claim kind of froze me in my tracks. I'm still thinking about what I want to do...

..As much as I hate to admit it,

DS's arguments on DLS's lack of scum-hunting make sense. I'm almost positive that either DS or DLS is scum.

There's no way this game makes sense if they aren't. Therefore...

Vote:DLS

Sorry, but he's right. You've yet to do anything non defensive. That's a big scumtell.

Underlined for emphasis. You give DS the credit for pointing out DLS's lack of scum hunting.

Here's where things get interesting.

You made this post earlier:

I've been really busy for the past couple of days, and I can't comment too deeply on the situation right now, but I'll say this.

Nudude and Infinitive have made me think about DLS in a light I hadn;t thought before, and suddenly I realized, they were completely right. She has yet to give anything on the Offensive.

This is bad. Very bad. It means she has the time, but not the will/desire to hunt scum. This may or may not mean something, but she's on my list now, when before she was not, though that may have been more for DS than herself.

Speaking of which, if, by some chance, DS and DLS are scum buddies, we're royally fucked. Nothings more dangerous than scumbuddies who hate each other. Just something to keep in mind if one of them turns up scum.

Now, infinitive, if you want to question me, ask away. Just don't lynch me because I'm a good townie who guessed wrong. The same goes true for everyone, except for DS, who I would just like to leave me alone, because, with finals, I don't have the time for

him

That said, we need more pressure on Liamcool, who I feel is the shot for today, who has gone missing despite calls for action. Therefore,

Unvote, Vote:Liamcool

Underlined for emphasis.

It was me and Infinitive that were making the case on DLS's lack of scum hunting, and you knew that. DS simply re - iterated what we said, but later on you give him the credit, and even use it as an excuse to side with DS against DLS. Why?

Because it gives you the perfect excuse to side with DS against DLS. You needed a good reason to take your vote off DS and put it on DLS, as it would look suspicious just going from DS, someone you suspected strongly enough to vote for, also bearing in mind that you made it quite clear what you though about his "Theories". You take your vote off him and put it on DLS, even though you disagreed with his early "Theories" of DLS.

You idea was that if someone challenged your change of mind, you could say "He's brought up some good points" when in actual fact he didn't.

VOTE: Thanatos

[Nudude]

I said this about you earlier. In it I pointed out that you had started very few investigations of your own

Thanatos:

If you have a read over the thread, Thanatos has actually spear - headed very few investigations, and in actual fact only really jumped on bandwagons with his votes.

The only time he placed the first vote was early today when he voted DS. It feels like to me you and DS had a chat in the night and decided you two would point fingers at each other early D2 to distance each other.

You replied with this:

Nudude: I Think of all the things you can say about me, not scum hunting enough is not one of them. Besides DT, I've pushed hard against DS, and am the ONLY person actually examining DLS in an unbiased Isolation, and inviting people to talk about her.

Right now, I AM leading the DLS wagon. Maybe not by pushing her, but actually looking at her posts.

My point is that there seems to be this impression that your leading investigations, an impression your fostering, when the fact is you aren't, really. I think it's a stretch to say that you've spear headed or initiated any investigations. I wouldn't say your spear-heading DLS's investigation, as much as providing a running commentary.

What you've been doing is a form of visible lurking. It's where you don't actually give any new information, all you do is watch what happens and then provide a summary on what's already been said. It's worth nothing during my absence conversation dried up, to the point where the mod nearly imposed a deadline. I encouraged people to do some more investigations.

Your response? A PBP, with a summary that composed of things that have already been said. Instead of looking through the thread an trying to figure out for yourself who the scum may be, you simply commented on the bandwagon.

In itself, it's a perfectly reasonable play. The issue I have is that you are falsely presenting yourself as someone "Leading the charge" so to speak, when it simply isn't true.

By playing this passive role, it's very easy to look townie without actually helping the town. If your clever, you can even claim that your spear - heading lots of investigations, doing your part for the town.

[Nudude]

I would encourage people to re - read pages 22 and 23, and bear in mind DS originally targeted Thanatos in those pages, and Thanatos strongly disagreed with DS's logic. DS then targets DLS based on some "Bait" he throws out, and in the space of a few pages Thanatos "Forgets" that:

a) He refered to DS's theories as "Craplogic".
b) How hard DS grilled him and DLS based on that same logic.
c) That he acknowledged that it was me that brought up DLS's lack of contribution.

He would have to forget all those things to suddenly agree with DS.

I just don't buy it. Your too smart a guy to forget what happened a few pages ago.

Also, in regards to your scum hunting, I propose this. If you feel you are the only one investigating her, quote us a post where you gave us a new piece of information to consider in regards to the DLS investigation.

[Nudude]

In regards to the flamewar,

It just looks like to me two personailities colliding. Both of them hate to lose an arguement, and hate to back down.

DS:

I dont feel he was trying to further some agenda. I shan't repeat what he suggested happens to DLS at the height of that arguement, but his loss of control indicates it was an emotional response, rather some logical plan.

DLS:

She hasn't been playing this game to hunt scum, she just likes shooting down accusations aimed at her. Why wouldn't she carry this as far as it can go, she loves that kind of stuff, it's the reason she plays! Of course wether this is because she's scum, or she's a townie that doesn't really care about scum hunting as much as she does debating, remains to be seen.

[Nudude]

In regards to the flamewar,

It just looks like to me two personailities colliding. Both of them hate to lose an arguement, and hate to back down.

DS:

I dont feel he was trying to further some agenda. I shan't repeat what he suggested happens to DLS at the height of that arguement, but his loss of control indicates it was an emotional response, rather some logical plan.

DLS:

She hasn't been playing this game to hunt scum, she just likes shooting down accusations aimed at her

. Why wouldn't she carry this as far as it can go, she loves that kind of stuff, it's the reason she plays! Of course wether this is because she's scum, or she's a townie that doesn't really care about scum hunting as much as she does debating, remains to be seen.

In regards to the part I bolded, I wasn't shooting down anything aimed at me. What started the flame war was me deliberatly getting in the way of something I saw as unfair. And normally thats how I do it. If I see some one trying to accuse some one else unfairly I'm going to say something, but if the only person getting accused unfairly is me, then it doesn't really look like I have much else to talk about. I also do tend to lurk if I think that everything is being handled well. I generaly vote people who vote stupidly, unfairly or with little to no reason. I can be just as defensive taking up some one elses case as I am with my own. I felt that was represented in the flame war, because even though DS was throwing insults at me every chance he got, I still did my best to try and get the truth from him as diplomaticaly as possible. Even though it was taken to another level rather quickly, my whole main point was that voting some one becuase they are an asshole even if it is "the frosting on the cake" isn't fair, and it's not really something you point out to the entire world, and especially not with the words "I vote assholes first". It's obvious he plays with emotions (very angry and volatile emotions) and I think thats probably a whole lot worse than what I do.

I think you just proved my point DLS

[Nudude]

DLS: Don't think for a second that your not a suspect in my eyes. We all made the mistake of not looking hard enough at more people D1, I'm not going to make it again.

[Nudude]

Everyone,

People need to make more posts and do more investigations!

DLS has yet to do any scum - hunting, and all you guys are doing is hrming and haring. Investigate, posts some thoughts!

Thanatos hasn't been able to quote a single post where he provided some new information to the DLS investigation, but claims he's been leading said investigation. Interesting? YES! Investigate!

Nudude has been fairly aggresive in his investigations, is he a townie looking to generate some discussion in an otherwise stale thread? Or scum looking to sow dissention in the ranks? Better look into it and post some thoughts!

Deepthough has risen from the dead and demanded blood! You don't see that everyday! Surely this is a sign.

How many times do I have to prod you guys into action! Stop sitting back and waiting for some magical evidence proving someone is scum to fall into your lap. Go look for it, and if you can't find it, question people on the hunches you have!

DO SOMETHING!

[Nudude]

Vote Count

Dark_Lady_Shaiann (3)

- Disciple Slayer, Thanatos, charter
Thanatos (3) - Gorgon, VampyreLord, Nudude

Not Voting (3) - Dark_Lady_Shaiann, Infinitive, liamcool

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

As a final note,

Numenorean7 (mod) has threatend to impose a deadline. If that happens, you'll be wishing you had taken advantage of having all the time in the world to investigate, because you'll have to make rushed, uninformed decision.

[Nudude]

Unvote

I said investigate Thanatos, not quick lynch!

This is dragging out because people aren't putting the effort into investigating. The sooner you guys start putting effort into turn up evidence, the quicker we can find scum.

Infinitive, that was a very scummy thing to do.

[Nudude]

In fact,

Vote: Infinitive

for putting Thanatos at L1 with the weakest excuse I've ever heard.

[Nudude]

Vote Count

Dark_Lady_Shaiann (3)

- Disciple Slayer, Thanatos, charter
Thanatos (3) - Gorgon, VampyreLord, Infinitive
Infinitive (2) - Dark_Lady_Shaiann, Nudude

Not Voting (1) - liamcool

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Alright, cool cool. Realize though, that this situation is different from the one with DS. That FoS looked more reactive then anything. And I don't really see how townieness can 'build up'. In fact that seems like the biggest ploy to me. Having 'built up' townieness does not give you the ability to 'throw your votes' and not get noticed. It is possible though that he's simply trying to force us into doing something more proactive, but........ that post and vote was just way too suspicious.

The fact that Nudude waited to place his vote does make me raise an eyebrow though.

My vote was an afterthought, and only 6 minutes after my first post. I had a think about it and decided I wanted to put some pressure on Infinitive about it.

I would also like to apologise to anyone who I may have upset during my various investigations. I just want to let you know I'm not trying to attack anyone personally, I'm sure your all very nice people, and I'd probably buy you a drink if we met in real life. It's just I've conluded that for town to win we need information, conversation and explainations, and being agressive gets that. It seems to be working pretty well at getting information and generating discussion, so I will be continuing in that vein.

Please don't think I'm attacking you personally, it's just a strategy I'm employing to try and win the game.

Having said that, none of you are off the hook yet, but what I want to see first is a damn good reason from Infinitve for putting Thanatos at L1. Regardless of how scummy he may or may not be, there are still plenty of avenues to explore if people could be bothered doing more.

Once I get that, I'll figure out from there how to proceed.

[Nudude]

My concern is it is possible we have two townies here threating to lynch each other.......

And Gorgon and charter don't seem to have any thoughts on it.....interesting.

[Nudude]

My concern is it is possible we have two townies here threating to lynch each other.......

And Gorgon and charter don't seem to have any thoughts on it.....interesting.

Well, I've been quite busy these past few days with Christmas preparations, etc. Also, I replaced into a large game that's up to about 50 pages now, so that takes some reading ... and therefore time.

Enough with the excuses though.

I find your comment quite interesting.

Firstly, you express concern that the two people with the greatest number of votes just might be townies. One thing that could explain this is that you actually know they're both townies, and thus want to look good tomorrow when one of them gets lynched ("See, told you I had concerns"). Couple this with the fact that you hopped from Thanatos over to Infinitive, and it looks even fishier. You were pushing pretty hard against Thanatos, and now suddenly you're concerned about the possibility of him being town, and also concerned about the person you're currently voting being town? Weird, to put it mildly.

Of course I'm concerned that they maybe townies. I don't know about you, but I don't want to lynch a townie. I'm also concerned that they may be scum, so that's why I've been pushing them both, to get some answers. Note that when Thanatos was at L1, I took my vote off because getting a lynch isn't my objective, it's getting information.

Aren't you concerned their townies, or shall we assume because your investigating Infinitive you've made up your mind about lynching him?

Secondly, you passive-agressively cast suspicion on charter and I for our recent absence. Certainly, absence can be suspicious, but it can also have legitimate explanations. You, however, are directly implying that there are sinister motives at work here. Don't like it. Also, I note that you yourself actually haven't actually commented much on the Thanatos/Infinitive debate.

I've commented on far more things in this thread than you have. I've voiced my thoughts on both Infinitive and Thanatos, whereas it took a post from me to motivate you into action. You attack me for pointing out you haven't commented, and then proceed comment on Infinitive. I can only assume that means you feel it is reasonable to have some thoughts on the issue. I also think it's reasonable to have some thoughts on the issue, so I found it interesting that you hadn't said anything. Not scummy, not condeming, just interesting, so why do you attack me for it if you agree?

Also, I agree there are many reasons someone could be absent. It could be they have to cram christmas shopping into a small time frame. However, it could be they are scum, happily sitting back watching a shitstorm unfold between a bunch of townies, and see no reasons to interfer. It's a reasonable conclusion, why don't you like it?

What you seem to be doing a lot of is to push other people to do post/investigate, which to me looks like your way of coming across as a concerned townie who's really, really concerned about the wellbeing of the town. And now you're pointing at absentees and trying to make them look suspicious. Interesting fact: I've drawn suspicion for this kind of behaviour as scum myself.

Lurking IS suspicious, everyone knows that. Not neccesarily damning, but you have to be careful someone isn't slipping under the radar. If people don't post/investigate, there's no information to go off or to formulate opinions. On top of that, I've not just been saying it, I've been doing it, and as a result have generated quite alot of discusson today.

What your saying is it's scummy to call lurkers suspicious. Are you saying that we shouldn't be suspicious lurkers?

I also don't like your post 825, where you apologise to everyone for your 'attacks' and emphasise that there's nothing personal about them. I don't see anyone accusing you of being personal, or taking anything personally, before you made this post. I do, however, see that you were coming under some suspicion for your vote on Infinitive at that point.

You see, the accepted wisdom is that scum tend to be worried about not upsetting people. They want to stay in people's good books. They don't want to rock the boat too much. I'm sure I've mentioned this before, along with the fact that I myself have acted like that as scum, and drawn suspicion because of that. It's mostly a subconcious thing. You don't necessarily mean to act like this, but the worry that you might get under too heavy scrutiny if you antagonise someone leads to this behaviour. That apologetic post of yours is a very blatant example of this behaviour.

If you've been reading the thread, Infinitive has had a quite alot of shit happen in his life these past few weeks, and Thanatos is in the middle of studying for exams which are as stressful as hell. I appreciate that it's a stressful time for them, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ease up on my investigations. I just wanted to say that so as to lessen the personal impact it may have had on them. It may have had absolutely no personal effect on them, but I'd rather waste my breath saying it, just in case.

Scum worry about upseting people. However, so do human beings.

I'll need to take the time to review this game properly (Yes, I know that I keep promising to do this; hopefully I can live up to that someday - between Christmas and the New Year should be a quiet time for me), but right now you're pinging pretty strongly on my scumdar, having not registered much there up till now.

You weren't on my radar either, and I realised it was because we had very little to go on. Now we do.

[Nudude]

In regards to Infinitive:,

I re - read this quote:

Wow... I've kind of had it with this bickering. DLS, DS, you have both participated to make this game suck, as far as I'm concerned. Before the two of you started to bicker, I was having a grand time, and I felt we were getting somewhere. Now the game's a mess and almost everyone but you two, Thanatos, and Deepthought have stopped posting. Screw this. I don't care if I get lynched or anything anymore.

Vote: Deepthought

I've said it before, and I've given my reasons several times over: I'm pretty sure Deepthought is scum. If I'm wrong and he was telling the truth, so be it, but nobody around here is acting scummier, IMHO.

Now I'm going to sit back and wait for the night.

If we're lucky, one of the two will get nightkilled to end this damn bickering.

I quote this for two reasons:

1) Underlined for emphasis. You clearly thought you were hammer voting.

2) You were paranoid that because you had mis - counted the votes, we were going to lynch you, as displayed in this post:

Ok, sorry for the trip post. Allow me to explain.

I hit the quick reply field on page 12, thinking I was on page 13 (when i hadn't read page 13). I had figured that the mod here wasn't going to do anything about the massive bickering that was going on between DLS and DS, and on top of an already terrible day (my D&D module, which premiered today, was ripped to shreds in front of me as I sat there and DM'd it. By the time I left the con, I was pissed and miserable... and last night my favorite character got eaten by an alligator AND the zipper on my pants literally exploded. I shit you not.), I just checked out emotionally. I came back here a little while later to see if anyone else had said anything, and page 13 looked a whole lot different than I had thought it was.

Sigh. Now I'm gonna get lynched for this, I just know it. This weekend can officially go sodomize itself with a chainsaw.

You explain that you voted because you were sick of the arguements, and you saw this as a way to end it.

I find this VERY suspicious. You tried to hammer on the basis that you were stressed out. Just then, you claimed that you didn't count the votes properly when you put Thanatos at L1. I think you would have learned your lesson.

I think your rushing to get to the nightphase. It's just a hunch (emphasis on hunch), but I think it's because your getting impatient and want to use your night powers......serial killer.

[Nudude]

Just wondering if anyone was going to post any investigative information they've found, or is everyone just counting on me to post what I think about DS to keep us from a deadline?

[Nudude]

Oh and on a personal note,

Infinitive, make sure you always always always have some form of immunity to death magic, slaying arrows aren't so scary when you have that and all those fort/will save or die spells become useless.

Having said that, it was a pretty cheesy combo you went up against.

[Nudude]

Dungeons and Dragons.

ROLECLAIM: Geek =)

[Nudude]

MOD: can we get a prod for Disciple Slayer and charter?

[Nudude]

I'm sorry but this skating off topic will have to last just a little longer =).

I quite enjoy WOW as well. I have an alliance toon on Frostmourne and a horde toon on Thaurissan. I wasn't a fan of the DnD online game either, I prefer the table top version.

How about you guys?

[Nudude]

Posting will commence on the 18th. I've got a busy weekend and a flight immediately after.

Then

Posting after Christmas.

It could be for legitimate reasons, or it could be he's trying to use IRL excuses to avoid getting lynched. We aren't going to lynch someone who's had a reasonable chance to defend themselves. I'm not saying we SHOULD, but I think we should put off lynching untill after we've had a good chance to hear more from him.

In the meantime, no reason we can't continue discussing things.

Infinitive, your pushing for a lynch, when I don't feel we really have had a look at some very important facts, namely:

-DS comes out all guns blazing D2, then drops of the face of the Earth as we all point fingers at each other. It works very well on newbie townies, but I think we're all intelligent people.

-charter seems to have also dropped off the face of the Earth. I want to see if he gets replaced, and if so I want to have a chat to his replacement.

-Gorgon has been very inactive as well, and in fact when I pointed this out he attacked me for, essentialy, being suspicious of lurkers. That is extremely suspicious to me, because we all know that lurking is bad for town no matter how you spin it. I want to put some pressure on him so I can hear from from him, so

VOTE: Gorgon

-Infinitive seems to be leaning toward a lynch. It could simply be he wants to get on with the game, or he could be scum. You even described lynching Thanatos as our "Best bet". Maybe, maybe not, but I want to push the odds in town's favour as much as we can be we throw the dice, and it seems we've got yet to do that, so

HOS: Infinitve

[Nudude]

Interesting point Re: Charter and Gorgon. Neither has really been investigated thusfar, so that would be eludicating. I still don't get much of a scummy read off of either, but maybe that's just because they're good scum players.

And as for wanting to move to lynch? Well, to put it simply, we've been in day 2 for over a month, and nothing new has been revealed in the last week. Stagnation, to me, means it's time to shake things up somehow. The best way for the town to change things in this game is to lynch. That being said, I still stand by my reasoning regarding Thanatos as a potential lynchee. Convince me otherwise.

Thanatos may seem a like a good canidate because we've had a look at the things he's said, and had a chance to form a conclusion.

Other players may seem less like scum because they have said very little. It's hard to consider someone scummy when they haven't done anything that seems scummy.

HOWEVER

If they have done very little, then there's very little reason to think they're scummy. It is so very easy for a scum player to sit back and watch town point fingers at each other.

You counter this by forcing the players sitting back to interact. The increased activity gives us more information to go on, and gives us a better indication if they're scum or not.

[Nudude]

For the record, I have no problem lynching Gorgon or DS for lurking, or charter if he picks up his prod.

The reason for this is we have to decide wether or not we are content having people just sitting back, only popping in every now and again making comments.

If we decide it's ok, which is what we're doing now, then scum can just sit back and win the game by not doing anything at all as townies argue and lynch each other.

If we refuse to accept, scum are forced to parcipate, and thus potentially out themselves.

I'm not ok with people lurking, so I say if your going to lurk, I'm going to push for lynching you. I'm not going to hand scum an easy win.

[Nudude]

Ok, if we are going to let people lurk, how do we tell if their scum or not? If they don't say much, what information can we use to figure them out?

If you can figure out some way to do that by all means tell us so we can apply it and find out who is scum and who isn't.

[Nudude]

Posting will commence on the 18th. I've got a busy weekend and a flight immediately after.

Then

Posting after Christmas.

It could be for legitimate reasons, or it could be he's trying to use IRL excuses to avoid getting lynched. We aren't going to lynch someone who's had a reasonable chance to defend themselves.

I'm not saying we SHOULD, but I think we should put off lynching untill after we've had a good chance to hear more from him.

In the meantime, no reason we can't continue discussing things.

Infinitive, your pushing for a lynch, when I don't feel we really have had a look at some very important facts, namely:

-DS comes out all guns blazing D2, then drops of the face of the Earth as we all point fingers at each other. It works very well on newbie townies, but I think we're all intelligent people.

-charter seems to have also dropped off the face of the Earth. I want to see if he gets replaced, and if so I want to have a chat to his replacement.

-Gorgon has been very inactive as well, and in fact when I pointed this out he attacked me for, essentialy, being suspicious of lurkers. That is extremely suspicious to me, because we all know that lurking is bad for town no matter how you spin it. I want to put some pressure on him so I can hear from from him, so

VOTE: Gorgon

-Infinitive seems to be leaning toward a lynch. It could simply be he wants to get on with the game, or he could be scum. You even described lynching Thanatos as our "Best bet". Maybe, maybe not, but I want to push the odds in town's favour as much as we can be we throw the dice, and it seems we've got yet to do that, so

HOS: Infinitve

Underlined for emphasis, and there's no need to be rude.

[Nudude]

If you would care to read post 878.

I have said that I don't want to lynch someone for being absent during this time. I'm talking about all the times wayyyyy before christmas.

Even then, I totally agree we shouldn't lynch someone over the holidays, and have said as much in my posts.

The closest I said I would lynch someone is if they dig in their heels and refuse to contribute after we ask them for an explaination.

You suspect Thanatos, correct? What lead you to those suspicions, may I ask? It was me putting pressure on him and getting information out of him.

I'm not sure if I should be frustrated or suspicious of people who seem on one hand to say "I suspect person X because of what been said" and then say "I suspect Nudude because he's pushing people". It's because I've been pushing people that you have information from which to draw conclusions.

Lurking does not mean scum. However, ask any experienced player "Should you be suspicious of lurkers?" and most of them will say "Yes. They're not definetely scum, but don't let them slip under the radar" or something to that effect.

If you want, I'm more than happy to postpone this game untill after the new year.

In fact, if I remember correctly, it was you Inifinitive, that felt lynching Thanatos would be our best bet. So lynching him is ok, but me putting pressure on Gorgon isn't?

[Nudude]

Sounds reasonable to me.

Unvote

[Nudude]

I don't have any specific questions at this time.

[Nudude]

I don't have any specific questions at this time.

Wait....I thought you said you were going to be investigating DS when he got back, or did I some how manage to miss when all of that investigating occured...? Not likely.

Investigating involves questioning, and if you don't have any questions for him by now, it makes me wonder if you were really planning on investigating him at all, considering that he has been gone for the majority of the month. Stalling much? This is the second time I have had to say something about your non-existant DS investigation......

So...in reguards to your earlier question......

Just wondering if anyone was going to post any investigative information they've found, or is everyone just counting on me to post what I think about DS to keep us from a deadline?

You promised us an investigation. Sounds like your trying to weasel out of it. You had no problem doing a full out cavity search on Thanatos and myself, and then placing a vote on Gorgon, but DS seems to have you scared.....or maybe there is something else going on between the two of you......

I find this accusation amusing for three reasons:

1) You expect me to do all the work investigating. If you want an investigation, nothing stopping you from doing it. I gave my reasons for not questioning DS in post 765:

I know I promised to grill DS, But as I'm sure you can appreciate when scum knows your plan of attack, you've got to change tactics.

2) DS has said that he has a few things to say. I said I had no questions

at this time

, I simply want to hear what he has to say first. Don't think for one second that I've let him off the hook just because I'm giving a potential scum the opportunity to trip up by saying something stupid.

3) I've also investigated Infinitive, and I'll be up front and say he is my number 1 suspect. The whole game he's just been too eager to end the day. I know he had his reasons but he's my best guess at the moment.

Don't forget something you said earlier.

Well...it is a mini, my first mini, and when the game was going really fast I kind of just skimmed to see if anything was being said about me, and then some how I came across some one elses vote for Lord Nikon, and that was when his name stuck out to me. So....I was just being really careless and fairly newbish.

I apologize and will be sure to actually read everything.

Underlined for emphasis. I just pointed out three things that you apparently missed. You have been reading everything, haven't you?

[Nudude]

The only thing I expect you to do is what you say, just like you would expect that of me. If you say your going to do an investigation, of course I'm going to expect it. I'm not going to do it because I simply can't deal with DS anymore, so this situation is a little more delicate, aside from the fact that I would greatly appreciate some one elses input about him. I have done enough interacting with him.

Your decision to not question DS still strikes me as odd, if not scummy. Even if I had seen that one post, I still would have something to say about this. Why so quick to question and accuse every one else, but not him? You changed your mind long before he asked if any one had any questions, you can't really tie them in together. You had almost a full month to figure out what you wanted to say to DS and then you just randomly give up on it? I don't buy it for a second. You were completely absent when DS came back early, like you were waiting for him to come back and then dissapear again (which is exactly what happaned) and now that you know that he is back for good you have more or less completely dropped it.

So, now your going to give him the oppurtunity to speak. About what? If your so sure that he is scum, why are you going to give him the chance to take the front and start spewing accusations at the people who have been active and possibly remove suspision from himself? He's been gone for a month and though we got excuses, his other games got more attention (not much attention, but he completely excused himself from this one, while the others got little comments and such. It's probably because this game is a lot more "deep" than the others and needs more "thought". Whatever.) All I know, is that when Nudude starting being more aggressive, DS backed off. Nudude wants to do an investigation on DS but they were both stalling, and eventually the investigation is delayed and will possibly be canceled. It really wouldn't surprise me.

Waiting for him to speak is not a viable excuse. The chance of him saying anything incriminating in this situation is very unlikely. What else could you possibly be waiting for?

You are completely twisting what I said. I have every intention of asking DS a few questions, at no time did I say that I've dropped my case on DS, and said in my last post that I hadn't let him off the hook. Awhile ago he said he was going to start posting on the 18th. I let it slide because I was curious which side he would take and what logic he would use. His next post came saying he would post after christmas, so I let it slide a little more for the same reasons.

I don't see it as "Giving him the opportunity" to come out firing accusations. As a debater yourself, you know the advantage if being on the negative team, that being you get to go second, and provide counter - arguements the whole debate. I want him to charge forward and start spewing accusations. If he comes forward throwing out craplogic (tm), then I think the town is clever enough to figure it out. Plus it gives me a better idea on how he works.

I think that he just put Thanatos at L-1 speaks volumes for his motivations. I think people who complain about the day going too long are scum getting impatient. We've discussed alot of things today and found out lots about the people in the game. It has been a long day, but a fruitful day. I feel happy that it's been a long day, not impatient.

Finally, lets throw out a hypothetical for a moment that he is my scum buddy. Why would we make a play so blatant? I've been very vocal in my investigations, why would we loudly advertise I'm holding back on DS? What possible agenda does it further?

Why don't you focus your energy on finding scum? I've given town lots and lots of information to examine, I've never encouraged anyone to follow me with their voting or advocated for a lynch.

On the other hand, Infinitive, and now DS, have both put Thanatos at L-1, and you don't even give that a second thought? Somehow I seem more scummy, despite the fact I've been putting so much effort into investigating? Your either scum, or taking my investigation on you far too personally. I'm leaning to the latter, but only

just

.

[Nudude]

Now for an example for craplogic hard at work:

DS, you just put Thanatos at L-1, and you know damn well what your doing, because you try to justify it by saying "I'm bored, the day has gone too long".

Early in this day you came out all guns blazing, then went completely quite. The reason? The bandwagon was working for you, and has culiminated in getting three votes on Thanatos.

Because you are scum, you don't care about investigating, which is why you put such little effort into it. You just kick up a shit storm, and hope that when the pieces fall there's enough votes on a townie you can lynch him.

You've been popping in saying "I'll have something to say soon" just so we'd put off investigating you for a little bit longer.

I'm now certain your scum.

VOTE: Disciple Slayer

My vote will not be moving. This is how certain I am.

On a final note, if someone hammers Thanatos, I will vote for you as my first act of the day and encourage the rest of the town to do the same.

[Nudude]

Finally, my thoughts on everyone:

Disciple Slayer: Throws out some accusations at the beginning of the day to kick up a storm. His next notable appearance is to put Thanatos at L-1.

Infinitive: Is in too much of a rush to end the day. We may not see him for the next few days, because he'd have to come up with a reason for keeping Thanatos at L-1 that doesn't sound like complete BS.

Thanatos: I'm not 100% certain, could be scum, could be town, though I'm leaning town simply because some people are rushing to lynch him. I just don't think he's done anything that justifies making him the lynch for the day.

Dark Lady Shaiann: Doesn't like me very much. I'm thinking she's town, but I find her tunnel vision disturbing, we'll see how it goes.

Charter: I don't think he's picking up his prod, and I don't really have enough to make a call on him either way. Best guess.....town. Scum may be trying to get a lynch in before a replacement townie has a chance to provide an independant assesment.

Gorgon: I know he's busy, but I hope he checks this thread enough to take Thanatos off L-1 for the most ridiculous reasons I've ever heard.

Liamcool: Either a godfather or a townie. Odds are he's a townie, so that's what I'm leaning towards. Hunches are one thing, but you can't refute statisical fact.

Vampyrelord: VL has made this interesting. I'm certain his cop claim is real, but he is also voting for Thanatos.

Laimcool and Vampyrelord. You two are, statiscally, most likely to be town. I would like to hear what you think. Do you feel that Thanatos is the best lynch today? Do you find Inifinitive's and DS's L-1 of Thanatos to be scummy?

[Nudude]

I'll take all the information I can get, give me a run - down.

[Nudude]

I can appreciate that you don't want to hammer DS, and that's fine. By all means do some investigating, and if you feel there should be someone else to vote for then present your case. You can never have too much discussion.

However, it is worth noting that earlier you just wanted to get the day over and done with.

Just so we're clear, I don't have any problem with people not wanting to rush. Take all the time you need to make a decision you feel is correct.

The reason I find interesting is that when Thanatos was about to be lynched, you basically said "I just want to get this done with". With DS, you say "Hang on, lets not rush". The only variable is the person we're lynching.

If you were being honest when you said you just wanted the day done, why is DS different from Thanatos? I'm not saying you should hammer DS, I just want to know why you would say "Lets get the day done", and then when the opportunity presents itself, you suddenly change your mind?

[Nudude]

As I've said numerous times DLS, if you wanted to see an investigation on DS, there was nothing stopping you from doing it. I wanted to hear what DS had to say, and I said as much, and I had every intention of asking him a few hard questions, specifically why he was so loud at the beginning of the day, and so quiet near the end. I was suspicious of how much he focused on my investigation of you, and how vocal he was, just to then vanish during my other investigations.

I wasn't the one to hammer him, and there were four other people who kept their vote on him at L-1, and that includes yourself.

Having said that, I'm not trying to distance myself from this lynch. At the end of the day, DS had become a hardcore lurker, and I made my stance on lurkers clear earlier this game, though I would have liked to have gotten more information out of him first.

Your focusing on me alot, and I feel like your taking my investigation of you far too personally, or maybe your just trying to deflect attention from the fact you also voted for DS. Guess we'll find out tomorrow.

[Nudude]

And I have to trust your telling the truth, just like you should consider trusting me when I say that I wanted to hear what DS had to say first. Is it really that hard to believe?

[Nudude]

Not investigating is a ploy? What possible agenda could I forward by not investigating DS?

[Nudude]

Why would I keep my scum buddy at L-1 when I had every reason to take it off?

"Ah" some of you think "You did that to distance yourself!". So I distance myself from him by keeping him at L-1, but then shoot myself in the foot by avoiding investigating him?

Wouldn't it make more sense for me to do it the other way around? Take him off L-1, and conduct an investigation, which has a much lower risk?

Now, try stay with me on this one. Maybe, just maybe, it's because I wanted to hear what he had to say first?

[Nudude]

It sounds like to me no matter what I did you would have been suspicious of me. I believe that the town's common sense will prevail, and accept that I simply wanted to hear what he had to say first over your WIFOM web of conspiracy, and that's the last I'll say on it. Feel free to have the last word.

Moving along.

I don't care to count how many times I've said this to you, but I'll say it again.

If you have (or had, in this case) a hunch, and you feel it is worth pursing, then investigate it and build a case. Stop expecting everyone else to do the work while you sit back. If you felt DS should have been lynched D1, then you should have said something and done some investigating D1 to support it.

You are quick to shoot holes in other peoples theories and investigations, and you had every chance to convince us to vote for DS by presenting a case, but you didn't. It's easier to point at us and say "You guys shouldn't have let him get away with it" than "I wish I had put more effort into showing everyone good reasons to vote for DS".

[Nudude]

The sole basis of you thinking I'm scum is that I didn't immeditaely investigate DS. I was the first one to vote for him, and I didn't move my vote even when he was at L1. Doesn't that say anything?

I swapped and changed my votes all through D2, so I had a perfectly good excuse to take him off L-1, and put my vote on someone else.

I really don't know what else I can say.

I also find it very interesting that you are stuck on lynching me. Consider Thanatos for example. I don't believe his role - claim one bit.

Yesterday he said he's going to roleclaim today. What possible advantage could he gain from that? The simple answer is there is no advantage at all.

He needed an excuse to say he was "Role blocked", so he tells everyone yesterday that he was going to role - claim.

Here's the thing though. IF we have a role blocker, why would he block you? You admit your going to role claim, and since it makes no sense for a mafia to role - claim, we can only assume your going to claim a pro - town role. So why would a role - blocker block you? It makes no sense.

I'll make this easy for everyone.

VOTE: Thanatos

If I'm wrong, lynch me tomorrow. I'll vote for myself as the first act of the day.

[Nudude]

I'm going on the record and saying that at anytime this game you a proven to be a vig, I will vote for myself. I'm not sure what brand of scum you are though. Your either a one - shot mafia assassin, or an SK who thought he'd pull a clever stunt by opting out of his NK. But you are scum, I've no doubt.

At no time yesterday did I advocate a lynch. The closest I came was saying that I was so sure DS was scum, that I wasn't moving my vote. If you will remember correctly I took you off L-1 the other day. I wanted people to talk and discuss things, come up with ideas and theories and see who defended who and how the votes moved.

I pressed just about everyone that day, except for VL because I, along with just about everyone else, believed he was the cop, and liamcool, because if I believed VL was a cop, then I must believe his investigation.

It's possible that liamcool is the GF, but it's also possible to flip a coin twelve times and have it comes up heads every single time. Possible, but very unlikely. I've explained a few times why I didn't grill DS, and the only time I really supported him was when he was looking at DLS.

I'll remind everyone how he started the day attacking you, and then you both very quickly moved to attacking DLS. He was quiet after his initial attack on DLS, so I'm not sure how you drew the conclusion I was backing him "Most of the time", when he was hardly there. Your stretching the facts to suit your story.

I didn't know who scum were, just like the rest of the town. So I pushed and watched what happened. I don't believe scum are just going to come out and saying something incriminating, so I had a look at everyone. The whole time I encouraged people to conduct their own investigations and draw their own conclusions, and I still do.

I don't buy your reasons for claiming one bit. If your objective was to sacrifice yourself to try save VL, you could have claimed cop after DS was hammered. You could have said "I'm the vig, and I will be killing "X" tonight, and Y tomorrow", and then simply not gone through with it, rationlising on the chance you pick a scum, they would've had to have killed you to save themselves.

If your sure I'm scum, and you meant it when you said you were willing to sacrifice yourself, why not let us lynch you today, so then everyone will know I'm scum and lynch me tomorrow?

You won't do it, because the truth is your not actually willing to sacrifice yourself, that your actually scum that cooked up a story that makes you look noble for being willing to sacrifice yourself.

Prove me wrong.

[Nudude]

Here's the thing. The logic Thanatos applied yesterday was "I was trying to sacrifice myself to save the cop, so he has one more night of investigations".

So wouldn't it stand to reason he would be willing to sacrifice himself to get a guarunteed scum?

Alright...so....Nudude is trying to convinve Thanatos to sacrifice himself, promising that if Than comes up town (more specifically, Vig) he will lynch himself tomorrow. Thats about equal to DS saying "these are the people I think are scum, look into them when I come out town." It was his last chance to get our attention, and it just slightly worked.

If there is a mafia-roleblocker, I think it's Nudude. It helps the story that he just made up.

I see Nudude as trying to buy time for the last scum partner whom as of right now, we have no idea who they are. Perhaps we should really look into that more today. Get both of our lynches lined up, just incase something dramatic happens overnight. I feel that today, we should not lynch anyone until we 'know' who their partner is.

It's not at all equal. DS was about to get lynched, and said that to save his neck. Here, it's the beginning of the day, no votes, and if anything it makes me look more suspicious, not less.

I doubt there is a mafia role blocker. If there was, it would have made more sense to block VL, thus making him and liamcool look suspicious, while NK Thanatos, a self confessed power role, which was likely a vig/sk given the two NK's on D1?

Also, his N1 kill made no sense at all. VL and liamcool looked more suspicious then insurgent at that time, so if you were going to take a shot in the dark, why not one them? Why did you kill a guy who had just replaced into the game, that no - one had a read on and had made a grand total of four posts? That was your best guess?

It fits better if your an SK, because it's in your best interests to leave suspicious people in play, whereas a Vig taking a shot in the dark would probably go for someone more suspicious than a guy who was in the game just a little over 24 hours?

My vote stands, and as you all know, I'm betting my life on it.

[Nudude]

Here's the thing. The logic Thanatos applied yesterday was "I was trying to sacrifice myself to save the cop, so he has one more night of investigations".

So wouldn't it stand to reason he would be willing to sacrifice himself to get a guarunteed scum?

Alright...so....Nudude is trying to convinve Thanatos to sacrifice himself, promising that if Than comes up town (more specifically, Vig) he will lynch himself tomorrow. Thats about equal to DS saying "these are the people I think are scum, look into them when I come out town." It was his last chance to get our attention, and it just slightly worked.

If there is a mafia-roleblocker, I think it's Nudude. It helps the story that he just made up.

I see Nudude as trying to buy time for the last scum partner whom as of right now, we have no idea who they are. Perhaps we should really look into that more today. Get both of our lynches lined up, just incase something dramatic happens overnight. I feel that today, we should not lynch anyone until we 'know' who their partner is.

It's not at all equal. DS was about to get lynched, and said that to save his neck. Here, it's the beginning of the day, no votes, and if anything it makes me look more suspicious, not less.

I doubt there is a mafia role blocker. If there was, it would have made more sense to block VL, thus making him and liamcool look suspicious, while NK Thanatos, a self confessed power role, which was likely a vig/sk given the two NK's on D1?

Also, his N1 kill made no sense at all. VL and liamcool looked more suspicious then insurgent at that time, so if you were going to take a shot in the dark, why not one them? Why did you kill a guy who had just replaced into the game, that no - one had a read on and had made a grand total of four posts? That was your best guess?

It fits better if your an SK, because it's in your best interests to leave suspicious people in play, whereas a Vig taking a shot in the dark would probably go for someone more suspicious than a guy who was in the game just a little over 24 hours.

My vote stands, and as you all know, I'm betting my life on it.

[Nudude]

Sorry for the double post!

[Nudude]

By all means, think about it for yourself and take your time, no rush.

It's impossible to be 100% certain wether or not someone is scum untill they go to the noose, but comparing the stretches of thinking required to justify Thanatos is an Vig, versus how the pieces fit together if Thanatos is an SK, I feel certain he the SK.

I also think of the consequences of being wrong if he is an SK. There are seven players, I'd say 4 townies and 3 scum (2 mafia + 1 SK). Now if we lynch a townie, and Thanatos is an SK, we could lose 3 townies in one day/night, making 1 townie and 3 scum, meaning the the town will almost certainly lose, as the mafia will kill Thanatos, and even if Thanatos picks a mafia to kill, that leaves 1 townie and 1 mafia, which means town lose.

No matter how I look at it, I don't trust Thanatos enough to put the game in his hands. If we lynch Thanatos, we know for a fact only one townie will die tonight, and if turns out we were wrong and he is a vig, you'll have confirmed me as scum (which I'm not!) and will know who to lynch.

The question is, do you trust Thanatos enough to risk only having one townie tomorrow?

[Nudude]

Did you even read my last post?

In it I explained why it's more risky trusting that Thanatos is a vig.

[Nudude]

There's a few people that haven't posted in a few days.

I've presented my theories and ideas, and explained why. Some people have said they dis - agree, but don't present any alternative theories either.

If you don't agree with me, fine, but at least do something about it! Post some thoughts you have, alternative theories, do some investigating. It's like everyone says "I'm not sure, I want to think about this" but then does nothing about it!

Come up with some ideas and evidence supporting your case. It frustrating for me because I've done my research and have concluded Thanatos is scum, but everyone else is just waiting for some magical piece of evidence to fall in our laps.

Give me something to change my mind, or vote for Thanatos and knock another scum out of the game.

Do something, anything!

[Nudude]

I didn't know an SK is counted as town in an end game situation. Can someone else confirm this?

[Nudude]

If you read my posts, I've been saying I am convinced that Thanatos is an SK, and presented my case, and that if people didn't agree with that, to do their own investigating.

Can you explain why he killed someone who was in the game a little over 24 hours after they entered the game, while ignoring a slew of suspicious characters?

Can you explain how he knew he'd been roled - blocked? My understanding is that most of the time you don't told why your attempt fails. I could be a GF, there could be a back - up doc, there could be many reasons, but he was sure he'd been role - blocked....how?

Can you explain why you said that an SK is counted as a townie in an end game situation, when this thread:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... +killer%2A

Would seem to indicate that is false? The only true way to know a win condition is by reading your role PM, but it's clear that a SK is not consdiered a townie in an end game situation....why mis - represent the facts?

Can you explain why you finished off DS yesterday before he had a chance to say anything, a stark contrast to today where your calling for calm, rational consideration. I agree that people should take their time and analyse the info.....so why did you yourself rush to the lynch yesterday? Because you were sure he was scum? How is me being sure your scum any different, except that I'm calling for people to prove me wrong, not neccesarily agree with me and rush to the lynch?

In summary,

1. His best guess D1 was a guy with four posts and who had replaced into the game a little over 24 hours before the lynch, despite there being more suspicious characters.

2. He cannot possibly have known he was role - blocked.

3. He claimed that an SK is counted as a townie in an end game situation. This is false, unless a role PM says otherwise.

4. He killed DS before he had a chance to open his mouth. It turned out he was scum, but I'd hardly call that a carefully considered act. I feel if your going to ask for carefully considered acts, then you should also carefully consider how you act, but twice this game you've been quite brash with your decisions.

Just so were clear, I have no problem with everyone taking their time to look things over. I'm just saying I'm pretty damned sure he is scum, and I'm presenting my case. I encourage everyone to present their own.

[Nudude]

I have to admit, you make some good points. It doesn't make alot of sense if your a SK. In fact, the one theory I came up with is that if you are an SK, it's in your best interests to kill scum tonight if we lynch a townie, in which case we should let you live one more night at the very least just in case we get it wrong today.

The thing is I'm certain your scum, well as certain as anyone can be who isn't psychic. There are some things in your story that just don't add up, which I've pointed out. Everyone will have to draw their own conclusions from that.

Here are a couple of alternatives I have:

1. Scum = 1xGF 1xRB 1xOne shot assassin.

This is a powerful mafia group, but there would probably have to be another pro - town power role to offset this. Thanatos could be the one - shot assasin, say he's a blocked vig, and if the role blocker gets lynched it will lend alot of weight to his claim.


2. Scum = 1xGF 1xGoon 1xRB.

A little less powerful, but another pro - town role would probably be justified in this setup.


Basically, your either a vig, or your scum and there's another pro - town role out there keeping his head down.

I can't shake the feeling your scum, just the question is what type of scum. I feel I've made some good points, but it's impossible to be conclusive untill a lynch.

I'd like to hear any other ideas people have, see what we can come up with between us.

[Nudude]

Well, simply put I'm so sure your not a vig I'm betting my life on it, and I want to show everyone I'm not scum trying to push some agenda by making myself accountable for my accusation.

I know it's a bit of WIFOM, but it just seems if there was a role blocker, they would have blocked VL instead of killing him. Imagine the confusion it would have made when VL, a person we were suspicious of from day one, claimed to get an innocent result on liamcool, another suspicious person, and then said "Sorry, I got roleblocked last night". We would have suspected and almost certainly lynched one of them.

As I said, it's WIFOM, and so really doesn't prove anything. Everyone has to decide for themselves what they believe, but I don't believe your a vig.

[Nudude]

Well so far you've managed to target two townies for your NK's. I wonder if you asked yourself that same question.

[Nudude]

Or for that matter, when you hammered DS because the day had gone too long?

[Nudude]

Your reasoning is "Unless someone counter claims, Thanatos must be a vig". Bear in mind if Thanatos were an SK or some mafia role that get's a one shot kill, we wouldn't get a counter claim in that instance either.

I do agree with your reasoning on DLS however. It does some a little extreme to be a distancing act.

While I don't question charter has made contributions, to say he has been the MVP of the game is a bit of a stretch. I wonder if charter himself feel this way.

While it's WIFOM, I have explained why I don't feel there is a role blocker. To me, it would have created more confusion to have had VL blocked.

Would you care to explain how I've been acting scummy? I think Thanatos's claim is false, so I present my ideas and evidence, and encourage people to discuss it. Would you prefer me keeping my theories and evidence to myself? How does that help the town?

FOS: Infinitive

[Nudude]

How can you be so certain Thanatos is going to get NK'ed tomorrow? If he's scum, and survives the night he could just as easily say "Geez, they must have role blocked me again". No matter how you look at it, if there is a role - blocker, there is zero reason to kill Thanatos tonight. They can continue to role - block and confuse the town. While Thanatos, to you, may not be the best lynch, that logic is flawed.

There is no logic that can 100% prove or disprove Thanatos claim untill he is either lynched or he gets to end - game, and I'm amazed everyone so far is accepting his claim so readily, going so far as to call me scummy because I don't accept it straight away.

You guys have been making every effort to shoot down all the evidence I've presented, which I feel they are valid points. It feels like you look at what I'm saying, and instead of consider it, you try to find out why it's wrong.

By the way, starting investigations is NOT a scummy thing to do, it's a town thing to do. Talking about theories and ideas HELPS the town, and while I feel Thanatos is scum, this whole time I've been saying for people to look into it themselves NOT speedlynch Thanatos.

What's more scummy, posting ideas and evidence, or critising a person for voicing his concerns?

C'mon guys, think! At least consider the possibility his claim may be false. Yes I'm aggresive with my accusations and investigations, but it generates conversation and gets ideas flowing, so I don't care if it looks scummy because during the time I was quiet in D2 conversation dried up, so if I get killed at least it was because I was sticking my neck out to get the town talking.

It's equally possible two of you are scum supporting Thanatos's story, determined to shoot down even the most rational arguement, and though it's quite a stretch, it's possible all three of you are scum, and there is as yet another pro - town role that is trying to keep his head down.

There are many reasons Thanatos is not a vig. How can you possibly ignore them?

[Nudude]

Well, you guys just put me at L - 2, so if your not scum they can hammer me now. Just a few posts ago you were telling me to consider what the effect would be of voting for myself tomorrow if you turned up to not be vig.

Just wondering if any of the people voting for me are willing to be lynched tomorrow if I turn up town.

[Nudude]

I'm debating on whether or not I should unvote. If I unvote it keeps the last 2 mafia from hammering (if Nudude isn't one of them), and forces them to actually participate. If I leave my vote, and the previous scenario occurs...atleast we will know who truly is scum, but will we be able to do anything about it D4?

I feel that Than being SK is a tad more likely than him being the vig, but like I said, I'm fairly certain he's going to get NK'd so.....whatever. I have no idea what you were trying to say when you were explaining why you think Than won't get NK'd, Nudude.

And no. No one is going to bet their life on whether or not you are scum, Nudude. It was stupid of you to suggest you were going to do it, and stupid for you to think we are going to do the same thing for you. Than's situation was different. He was trying to protect a cop (or so he says)....not prove a point.

Oh, and Nudude, why do you think that just becuase we want you dead, it means we don't believe you about Than? Like I said, I feel he is most likely SK then Vig, but that fact is not going to save you. Stop going on about it. Come up with reasons as to why we shouldn't lynch you, not why we should lynch Than (let's not take into consideration the fact that we shouldn't lynch you is so we can lynch Than ). Bottom line is, it's not working. You are arguing with yourself.

I think I will

unvote

for now, and wait for the others to get back.

There is wisdom in your words. If everyone is at least willing to consider that Thanatos claim is false, I'll leave it alone.

If you looking for a reason to not lynch me, I'd say primarily because I generate discussion. If you have a look at D2, the town was quiet during the times I wasn't available to post, and if you doubt that then by all means have a look at the posting patterns. There were a few times when days would go by without a post, so I would investigate someone and then everyone started talking again.

I feel as if people are afraid to point at someone and say "Your scum, and this is why" because they feel if their wrong, their going to look scummy. Personally, I feel it's more important to have discussions flowing, so if that means I get a few suspicious stares and fingers pointed at me, then so be it. The town needs information to make accurate lynches.

It doesn't help the town if people keep them thoughts to themselves.

[Nudude]

I'd hardly call the evidence in your favour over - whelming, but I agreed to leave it alone.

So, who should I look at next then?

[Nudude]

I feel most of the players in this game are playing it cautiously at the moment, waiting for other people to post, and hoping that it will be the post that clears everything up.

I don't feel this is likely to happen. Most players have already stated the things they believe, and why they believe them. If there was going to be something said to set you on your course, I daresay it would already have been said.

I suggest everyone takes the time to read back over the thread. It may take about an hour, give or take, but I think it will help everyone get a better idea of where they stand.

Try to do it with an open mind. Pretend your not actually in this game, your just perusing it from an outside view. Try to figure out what each person is trying to accomplish when they post.

I know we were waiting on gorgon to post, but it seems like we're not coming up with many new ideas and evidence, as much as waiting for someone to say something that incriminates them. I don't believe scum are just going to come out and say something stupid. I feel we need to come up with theories, run them by people, and see how people respond to them.

I've been doing my fair share of that this game. I would like to see someone else try it. I don't mind doing it myself, but last time I did I got two votes for it.

So, who's going to generate some discussion?

[Nudude]

I drew this conclusion from Gorgon's post.

He's eager to explore new possibilites. His post is well though out and he presents rational evidence. As for myself, IRL my work revolves around statistics, and statisical it is unlikely liamcool is the GF, so I will need something very compelling to vote for liam. However, even though statiscally it's unlikely liamcool is the GF, I don't feel any problem with gorgon exploring the possibility if he feels it's an avenue worth persuing.

As for me, you critisied me for my narrow pursuit of Thanatos, yet you are just as narrow minded, if not more-so, in your pursuit of me, your just using less words than I did.

I am going to suggest having a read over the thread, pulling up some evidence, and presenting some theories to us. Hell, investigate me if you want, just do something more than pick apart individual posts.

[Nudude]

Your quite right, I had forgotten about your post. Sorry.

I don't quite know what to make of you DLS. Your logic can be hard to follow, well for me at least, but I feel most people in the game would agree with that. I'm not saying what your saying is invalid, but it's hard to figure out what your trying to get at sometimes.

I don't know if it's because your scum trying to put together evidence that doesn't quite fit, or that it's simply your style of presenting evidence isn't clear. Anyone please correct me if they feel I'm wrong.

I feel I'm at the point where I should simply stop replying to your posts, simply because whenever I say something, it seems to dig me in a deeper hole with you, and I'm not quite sure why. Again, I'm not saying you have invalid points, simply that I have a hard time following your logic, so it makes it hard to present my defense, even more so a defence that applies to your logic.

By all means keep posting and forming your conclusions, but I just don't think were making alot of sense to each other, and it's just serving to confuse things.

[Nudude]

Vote Count

Thanatos (1) - Nudude
Nudude (1) - Thanatos
liamcool (1) - Gorgon

Not Voting (4) - Dark_Lady_Shaiann, liamcool, Infinitive, charter

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch

Well I feel like everyone wants to lynch me, and has their heart pretty set on it.

Regardless of the conversations I generated, leading the charge on lynching DS, being the only one to initially doubt Thanatos's claim where everyone else seemed quite ready to believe him, my willingness to explore other possibilities in contrast to everyone else seemingly set on Thanatos being a VIG and myself being scum.

Ignoring Thanatos's willingness to end the day, his unusually fast hammer of DS, his odd choice of NK's, a dubious "I'll roleclaim tomorrow" call yesterday, a seemingly sure knowledge of him being role - blocked, even though there are many possibile reasons his NK may have not worked.

Given that I feel like I'm going to get lynched, I'm going to point out a relationship I see between Infinitive and Thanatos. It's possible they may be lovers, but I'd say in a C - 12 that's unlikely. He has unquestionable faith in Thanatos's claim, and they've both been expressing a willingness to lynch me. I admit I'm pushing my theory on Thanatos being scum theory hard, but I've also been encouraging people to think for themselves, even when I dis-agree with their logic.

I've been loud, I've thrown around accusations, but someone had to do it to get things moving. I had originally planned on being low - key, but seeing as how everyone else was also playing low - key, I decided to play aggresively so everyone actually had something to analyse, instead of the thread being quiet for days on end. This wasn't an effort to get people lynched, I felt I've proven this as my stance has always been "Investigate for yourself". As loud as I've claimed people are scum, I've also said to come to your own conclusion.

[Nudude]

EBWOP: DLS has at least considered not trusting Thanatos's vig claim. Sorry for the generalisation, it just *feels* like the whole thread is against me

[Nudude]

If by that you mean "Unbaised", then yes.

From now on, I'm going to wait untill charter's replacement is found, I think a fresh mind will shed alot of light on this situation. See if you guys can hang off on lynching me untill then, unless of course your afraid that they may come to a rational, well thought out conclusion.

DLS, your twisting the facts to fit your theory, when it should be the other way around. I said quite clearly at the start I wouldn't be taking my vote off....why would I say something like that? If he was my scum buddy, cornering myself like that is a horrible play.

In any case, I did do a bit of an investigation on DS:

Now for an example for craplogic hard at work:

DS, you just put Thanatos at L-1, and you know damn well what your doing, because you try to justify it by saying "I'm bored, the day has gone too long".

Early in this day you came out all guns blazing, then went completely quite. The reason? The bandwagon was working for you, and has culiminated in getting three votes on Thanatos.

Because you are scum, you don't care about investigating, which is why you put such little effort into it. You just kick up a shit storm, and hope that when the pieces fall there's enough votes on a townie you can lynch him.

You've been popping in saying "I'll have something to say soon" just so we'd put off investigating you for a little bit longer.

I'm now certain your scum.

VOTE: Disciple Slayer

My vote will not be moving. This is how certain I am.

On a final note, if someone hammers Thanatos, I will vote for you as my first act of the day and encourage the rest of the town to do the same.

It wasn't as in depth as some of my investigations, but there it is none the less.

My scum list is as follows:

Thanatos - Him being a Vig just doesn't make sense. I've made a few read throughs of this game, and it just doesn't add up to me. The idea of a RB doesn't make sense either. A RB could have been better used by scum. It's strange that Thanatos would hint at a role yesterday, and it's strange that scum have made poor use of their RB. That combined with some odd choices of NK's, I'm pretty certain he's scum.

DLS - I've avoided putting her on because I feel that maybe she's just a mis - guided townie, but perhaps I'm just not giving her enough credit. Her admant refusal to look at anything that supports me being a townie, and her clutching at straw logic that supports me being scum. She's pushing me to be a scum at the exclusion of any other possibility, and refusing to do any investigating to find the truth. She isn't interested in truth, she's interested in proving me to be scum.

Infinitive - Seems too eager to believe Thanatos's claim, and defend it. A townie is uncertain, the have only bits and pictures of a full picture. Infinitive acts like he knows exactly what the score is. I admit it doesn't certainly make him scum, just a gut feeling.

Charter, Liamcool and Gorgon are townies.

See you all when charters replacement gets here. I'll be watching the conversations you have with keen interest. I doubt there'll be much, unless you put on a show for the sake of this comment. Scum with a plan have nothing to discuss after all.

[Nudude]

I am calm Thanatos. No need to be rude.

[Nudude]

Sorry, one final note. I am willing to move my vote to Infinitve or DLS if a good case is built on either of those two.

See, I'm flexible, and your scum .

Cya's later.

[Nudude]

I have to give it to you coolbot, those are some good points. I've had a bit of a hard time trying to figure out what DLS is hanging on to, but your points make sense.

In regards to Thanatos, if he is the vig, it is likely that he is the last power role left, and if I was scum and there was a scum RB, I could RB him every night, so there wouldn't be any need for me to stick my neck out and accuse him of lying, and in fact it would be foolish of me to do so. It would have been better to have just kept quiet and let the town stew over the "What if's" than draw attention to myself, and in fact I thought that the RB would have been better used to block VL and have instead just NK Thanatos and removed his, at the time, "Mystery role", with his suspicion levels he would have almost certainly been lynched.

I don't believe he was trying to save VL with his claim, if he had really wanted to sacrifice himself, it probably would have been better to say he was a vig. "I'm a vig" gets far more attention than "I'm going to role - claim tomorrow". Scum may have considered letting VL survive the night, knowing that people were very suspicios of him already. I think he was just trying to give his role - block story plausability.

Thanatos's claim sounds to me to be false, so I stood up and told everyone why I thought so, and defended my logic. Why would I draw the completely unneccesary attention to myself? I've advocated slow, considered play this whole game, don't mix up me pushing the "Thanatos is scum" bandwagon for the "Hurry up and lynch someone" bandwagon, bearing in mind there were some people on that yesterday, which included DS, Infinitive and Thanatos.

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Godfather is where I got my info from, and though not always, they can be immune to NK's. The only way to be certain is if you got the rolecard. You quite right about the nurse though, they would have almost certainly protected VL. I'm just considering that if Thanatos is the SK or a mafia assassin, then there may be another power role to offset that. Bear in mind the reason I think it failed wasn't because of an intervention, I feel it's either Thanatos only gets one bonus NK this game because of his scum role, or because he's an SK who skipped it. I'm leaning to him being mafia though, because SK doesn't make alot of sense.

I have made a few posts in my defense, well specifically in defence of my logic, but I feel I present my case to DLS, and she didn't accept it. That's her perogative of course, but I feel I did my best to explain myself.

I feel it is fair to say that Thanatos hammered DS, and you could ask why a scum would have hammered his buddy. Just bear in mind it has happened plenty of times before, either to distance, plain impatience, or if Thanatos was afraid of what might come out of DS's mouth if given the chance.

I've pushed that Thanatos is scum hard, because I feel certain he is. He killed a guy who had made four posts in the game, who had replaced in for just a little over 24 hours, while ignoring two more likely suspects, because, I think, it's in an scum's best interest to leave suspicious people in play.

In retrospect, saying I would vote for myself tomorrow may have been a little hasty. I was trying to show people how confident I am he is scum, so confident I am right that I didn't consider the possibility of being wrong, but on the off chance I am there would be a good chance of LYLO.

So instead I will offer this. I will go to the noose today, thus proving my innocence if

everyone

agrees to lynch Thanatos next. Don't let him open his mouth or try to justify himself, just lynch him.

Bear in mind, I offer this, and the reason I made my previous offer, because I am so very, very certain Thanatos is scum. I don't know what else I can do to prove it if the evidence I've presented so far isn't good enough for everyone.

Once I'm lynched, it will become clear that Thanatos's claim is false, but everyone has to be on board for this. I don't want to get lynched today just to see him wriggle out of it D3.

[Nudude]

Before I get started, welcome to the game, Coolbot. Sounds like you're fairly experienced; we'll have to see how well you fill Charter's shoes. So far, at least, I'm liking what I'm hearing.

I have to give it to you coolbot, those are some good points. I've had a bit of a hard time trying to figure out what DLS is hanging on to, but your points make sense.

In regards to Thanatos, if he is the vig, it is likely that he is the last power role left, and

if I was scum and there was a scum RB, I could RB him every night

, so there wouldn't be any need for me to stick my neck out and accuse him of lying, and in fact it would be foolish of me to do so.

GOTCHA!

Bolded emphasis mine, of course. I'd like you all to read the bolded section carefully; I think that Nudude made a Freudian slip here- he says "If I was scum and there was a scum RB (note that he deliberately distances himself from the RB part of the hypothesis here), I could RB him every night (and here he makes the opposite jump of claiming that if he were scum he would be the RB)." I think Nudude slipped up here and, despite his best efforts at distancing himself from the RB suspicion that I've been leveling at him, accidentally gives away the fact that he is, in fact, the scum RBer.

You make some fair points in your post Infinitve, but this isn't one of them. Presenting a hypothetical does not make me scum, but using it as a point against me may be.

It would have been better to have just kept quiet and let the town stew over the "What if's" than draw attention to myself, and in fact I thought that the RB would have been better used to block VL and have instead just NK Thanatos and removed his, at the time, "Mystery role", with his suspicion levels he would have almost certainly been lynched.

This is poor logic. The cop is always, always, always the scum's first priority, no matter what. A jumpy vig can do more harm than good, especially if the scum are articulate. There is never a downside for a cop investigation, ever.

A cop is scum's first priority, but a RB cop is essentialy a townie. The scum may have come to the conclusion Than is a vig based on the N1 kill. Seeing as how they were allegedly planning on blocking him anyway, I doubt they considered the "jumpy vig" factor. They have allegedy denied him the ability to be a vig, and in doing so advertised the fact there may be a RB in play, when blocking VL would have most likely bought them another day at least while we accused VL of lying. This is scraping in WIFOM, but it seems a very poor scum play. Possible, of course, but it just seems a silly thing to do.

Than killed a guy who had been in the game a little over 24 hours. Doesn't that seem a little strange to you? Than said he was going to NK me. Of all the people yesterday, I was the best guess? I can appreciate people being suspicious, but do my actions yesterday make me the scummiest player in the game? There are too many stretches required for Than to be the Vig, and I don't think he's the SK, simply because it doesn't make sense for him to make a play like this. I admit I thought he was an SK at the start of the day, but as the hypotheticals were explored, I conceded it didn't make much sense. Him being a one - shot mafia makes sense though.

I don't believe he was trying to save VL with his claim, if he had really wanted to sacrifice himself, it probably would have been better to say he was a vig. "I'm a vig" gets far more attention than "I'm going to role - claim tomorrow". Scum may have considered letting VL survive the night, knowing that people were very suspicios of him already. I think he was just trying to give his role - block story plausability.

See above paragraph re: logic on cop vs. vig. The only thing I have to add here is that vig is the most likely claim in our position, given the game's composition thusfar; anything more powerful/unusual would, I believe, have sparked a more aggressive scum spread which, given DS' generig thug role, seems unlikely.

This is a fair point. A role blocker may be included in a game to offset the advantage of a vig. It is also just as likely there is another power role of some kind in the game to off - set the mafia's one - shot kill ability, and I have written off this possibility. I've pointed out why I don't think the pieces fit for Than to be a vig.

Thanatos's claim sounds to me to be false, so I stood up and told everyone why I thought so, and defended my logic. Why would I draw the completely unnecessary attention to myself? I've advocated slow, considered play this whole game, don't mix up me pushing the "Thanatos is scum" bandwagon for the "Hurry up and lynch someone" bandwagon, bearing in mind there were some people on that yesterday, which included DS, Infinitive and Thanatos.

Fair point here, though I'd like to point out that, for my part at least, I think I addressed this one already yesterday. Until DS voted, nothing new had happened for something like two weeks; at the very least a lynch would have given us information, which it did. Still, it turned out all right.

Actually I remember D1 when you made what you thought was a hammer vote, and when you explained your mistake it was Thanatos that stepped up and said basically "It's ok, don't worry about it, lets not worry about it and move on". Post 319 to post 324. You've always been keen to end the day.

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Godfather is where I got my info from, and though not always, they can be immune to NK's. The only way to be certain is if you got the rolecard. You quite right about the nurse though, they would have almost certainly protected VL. I'm just considering that if Thanatos is the SK or a mafia assassin, then there may be another power role to offset that. Bear in mind the reason I think it failed wasn't because of an intervention, I feel it's either Thanatos only gets one bonus NK this game because of his scum role, or because he's an SK who skipped it. I'm leaning to him being mafia though, because SK doesn't make alot of sense.

How so does SK make little sense, Nudude? Pardon my presumption, but you've said this a few times, but I don't recall you giving any particular reason why. SK makes sense to me for a pretty simple strat: given the events in day 2, Than is seriously staring a noose in the face. Almost immediately, he claims vig, knowing that if there's an actual vig (which is incredibly unlikely at this point), the correct response for that vig is to NK him for the false claim and that,

even absent that

, the scum will toast him to get control of the game and to prevent any random chance killings on their side, which can unceremoniously end the game.

What Than gains by falseclaiming Vig (if he's SK) is one last chance at a NK, now that he knows there's a RBer.

And if he's

actually

a vig? Then he's kept the town off of a non-scum player for the day. If he's

scum,

then he pretty much certainly gets lynched tomorrow for surviving the night. In all seriousness, Nudude, this is a win/win/win scenario- the town leaves alone someone who ought to be left alone, the scum get to kill the last non-scum power role, and the town narrows their focus on who may or may not be scum.

That makes sense, but there are alot of "What if's" in there. You readily accepted his claim earlier today, perhaps on reflection, we can't be so sure if his claim is true?

I have made a few posts in my defense, well specifically in defence of my logic, but I feel I present my case to DLS, and she didn't accept it. That's her perogative of course, but I feel I did my best to explain myself.

I feel it is fair to say that Thanatos hammered DS, and you could ask why a scum would have hammered his buddy. Just bear in mind it has happened plenty of times before, either to distance, plain impatience, or if Thanatos was afraid of what might come out of DS's mouth if given the chance.

A fair analysis of why Than might have hammered DS if Than were scum. In the greater context of what's going on here, however, I feel that this is rather less than likely.

That's also true, just pointing out the possibilites.

I've pushed that Thanatos is scum hard, because I feel certain he is. He killed a guy who had made four posts in the game, who had replaced in for just a little over 24 hours, while ignoring two more likely suspects, because, I think, it's in an scum's best interest to leave suspicious people in play.

In retrospect, saying I would vote for myself tomorrow may have been a little hasty. I was trying to show people how confident I am he is scum, so confident I am right that I didn't consider the possibility of being wrong, but on the off chance I am there would be a good chance of LYLO.

So instead I will offer this. I will go to the noose today, thus proving my innocence if

everyone

agrees to lynch Thanatos next. Don't let him open his mouth or try to justify himself, just lynch him.

Bear in mind, I offer this, and the reason I made my previous offer, because I am so very, very certain Thanatos is scum. I don't know what else I can do to prove it if the evidence I've presented so far isn't good enough for everyone.

Once I'm lynched, it will become clear that Thanatos's claim is false, but everyone has to be on board for this. I don't want to get lynched today just to see him wriggle out of it D3.

This last section seems to me to be just more of the same, only Nudude is now using the logic that the town has previously presented to refute his self-sacrificial plans in reverse. Rather than saying "I'll vote myself tomorrow if I'm wrong," which is an obviously bad plan, he's saying "I'm so certain of my convictions that I'll cheerfully meet the hangman today," knowing the town's reluctance to have people participate in their own lynches.

Nudude, your day 3 has been marked by a series of terrible logical disconnects that were entirely absent earlier in the game, before you came under investigation. I'm not a big fan of dropping a vote yet, given how early it is in day 3, but I'm not seeing any other compelling options right now.

As I said, I feel I've presented a strong case against Than, and the town seems to have reservations about it. We're getting to the point where either I'm scum trying to off the last power role (even though if I was scum I wouldn't really need to make such a noise about it since he's pretty much a townie while being allegedly role blocked) or Thanatos is scum. I believe very, very strongly Than is scum, but I can't think of anything more to add to the case. This way, the town can be certain they get scum no matter what.

[Nudude]

It's not impossible that Than is an SK, but I feel it would be a silly play for him to make if he was an SK. The scum now know exactly who is the other party that get's NK's, and there is no way they're going to let him make it to end - game, so for an SK to do that is to essentially making his own chances of winning extremely slim. I also hadn't considered that someone who gets a bonus NK may be mafia aligned, and when I learned about it and weighed them up, it makes more sense for a mafia aligned player to make this play, knowing that he's not going to get NK'ed, than an SK intentionally slimming his chances of winning.

The reason my thought's changed about him being SK, is because I'm open to information and ideas. I admit when I'm wrong, and have done so a few times this game. Just because there are some ideas I'm dead certain of and won't budge on doesn't mean I'm not open to new info. However, what I am certain of is that Thanatos is scum.

[Nudude]

This, however, is correct, Nudude. I think it's very likely that you're scum.

However, even on the off chance that you're not, if Thanatos survives the night, we've got a pretty clear lynch for day 4

. Even better, if a scum turns up as a NK target, we then know for a fact that Than is either SK or Vig, which further narrows the field (though it's unlikely that he'd get his shot off in this event).

I will leave it to everyone else do decide who's logic they think is most appropriate. I just want to point out that Infinitive thinks that if Thanatos is alive tomorrow, he is the clear lynch, so he should have no problems voting for and lynching him tomorrow. If the rest of you decide to go through with my plan and lynch me, make sure he follows through on it.

[Nudude]

EBWOP: The first paragrpah is a quote from infinitive.

[Nudude]

Not as far as me as Infinitive are concerned. If your alive tomorrow, we have a clear lynch.

[Nudude]

Coolbot: You make good points, but I don't feel you've given me a fair assessment.

My theory is there is no RB AT ALL, that Than has just cooked up the whole story. It was Than who said that he had been RB, and I said that's bogus, for the reason that if there was a RB they most likely wouldn't have offed VL to create confusion. I don't mind you disagreeing with me, but make sure where I stand on things? Finally, when I listen to people and change my views, I'm panicked scum, but when I don't listen I'm scum? What am I supposed to do?

Infinitive just backed down from his stance on having a clear lynch tomorrow, because he's looking for anyway he can to back out of having to vote for his scum buddy.

Coolbot has been poking me for a roleclaim. Let me ask the town this, hypothetically speaking, if I was a pro - town role, regardless of what that role was, and you guys confirmed it by lynching me, would that be enough evidence to show that it is highly unlikely Than is a vig because it would be unbalancing for town?

[Nudude]

You know what, I'm getting tired of fighting this over with everyone. I can appreciate your suspiciouns, but I don't feel like anyone is either reading what I say, or is just writing it off as some scum trying to wriggle his way out.

I could claim, but I feel like people will just look at it as scum trying to wriggle out of a hole and lynch me anyway, when really the simplest way to prove I have to be right about Thanatos not being a pro - town role is to prove I am one.

I will make this easy for the town. Lynch Thanatos tomorrow, and then lynch Infinitive, and town will win. Don't let them trick you with "It's Lylo!" and "Wait let us defend ourselves". They're scum.

Thanatos /hatoff to you. I want town to win, but congrats on pulling it off and getting them to swallow it hook, line and sinker. It's blatantly obvious to me it's a lie, but one townie doesn't matter if you can convince the others.

I feel frustrated because I feel I made some good points in my case, but I don't feel like most of you didn't even read or consider it, because it didn't support your "Nudude is scum" theory. Because I was aggresive, I must be scum. Even though I knew it would likely bring me to this point, I pushed it because it was right. I could have just given up and saved myself, but I felt it was more important at least one person represent the facts.

There is no way this many power - roles would be in a game, it would just be too damn powerful. Me being a power - role proves that Than is the scum power - role to balance things out.

Good luck guys. I'm very sorry to do this, but lets face it, you wouldn't believe me if I claim, now would you? In any case, if you vote the right people, the town wins anyway, so that means I win, even if I'm dead at the end, so if this is what it takes, then so be it.

Remember to vote Than and Infinitive, and town will win.

Vote: Nudude

[Nudude]

To simply explain your post, I changed my theories to fit the facts. I sincerely hope town takes this it heart. You don't always get your first theory right, you have to be willing to accept that your wrong sometimes, admit it, then put up a new theory.

Once my pro - town role is revealed, it should be clear to everyone that it's extremely unlikely Than is a vig. I'm also glad of Infinitive's response. If it had been a victory cry, it would have meant there are three scum. It was a bit of a gamble, but he's just confirmed there's only two, and we know who they are.

GG scum.

[Nudude]

No need to be rude Than. It's hammer voting anyway, so your unvote won't stop it. A majority was reached with my vote, and as the rules clearly state, at any time a majority is reached, a lynch occurs.

In any case, Infinitive was going to vote for me in 24 hours. Is he an idiot too?

Don't feel so bad about it, you just happened to push the wagon on a pro - town role, just bad luck.

[Nudude]

For the suspense! This is the last thing I get to do this game, so I'm milking it.

It's a self - indulgence on my part, sorry everyone.

[Nudude]

It's ironic you would call me an "Emo - brat" and then post that rant. Though it's understandable your trying to de - base my creditabilty.

C'mon Than, be civil eh?

Regardless of what you think of me, the simple fact is the odds are incredibly slim for there to be this many pro - town roles. Unless there was something you weren't telling us, in which case why did you push so hard for me to be a scum RB,

when you knew I was correct in thinking not all was as it seemed?

.

I'm also interested in what story you come up with to try get out of this, bearing in mind your scum buddy Infinitive's advice "Lynch all liars".

[Nudude]

Even in the face of over - whelming evidence, you still hold to the belief I'm scum. Can you honestly say you were open - minded in your assesment of me? This is the biggest thing a player can do to prove they're pro - town, bar nothing. What could I have possibly said or done to have changed your mind if even this isn't enough? Do you feel you were being fair to me?

Just some food for thought DLS, make of it what you will.

[Nudude]

Go town!

Two ghostly images float away from the town, they can be heard muttering "So quiet nowadays.....wasn't like this back in our day, people talked to each other...I think it's that internets that's to blame....." Their voices trail off as they pass to nothingness.