New York 195: Adventure Mafia - Game over!

[Ircher]

VOTE: Heur

@Mod: Part of the names got clipped cuz of the image.....

[Ircher]

VOTE: Ircher

Haven't seen you in forever.....

[Ircher]

VOTE: Ircher

why?

Its RVS.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Heur

@Mod: Part of the names got clipped cuz of the image.....

They look fine to me O.o
Are you on mobile?

@Mod Yes. Maybe find a smaller image? I dunno.....

@Copper
I'm fine. I have 13 completed town games and had 2 scum games, but they were marathons when the site went down.

[Ircher]

@Ircher
Nice, I can already tell you are more sure of yourself compared to when we played the first time.

@dr
Increased likelyhood of getting a read compared to another random, but since Ircher's been playing a lot that's not necessarily true anymore.

And the cooper ircher buddying continues!
VOTE: ircher
I'm almost sure of this now.

What happen to general chat?

But, if you find that scummy then:

VOTE: Shotty
For being opportunistic in play and deciding that general chit-chat is scum-indicative when it clearly isnt.

[Ircher]

Thats 2 scum found: Zakk/Shotty.

Who's next?

[Ircher]

Cuz your reasoning is way off. Apparently, general chit-chat is a scumtell.

On the other hand, Zakk is sheeping your poor logic without contributing any of his own. It looks like the two of you are teammates.

[Ircher]

@Ircher
Nice, I can already tell you are more sure of yourself compared to when we played the first time.

@dr
Increased likelyhood of getting a read compared to another random, but since Ircher's been playing a lot that's not necessarily true anymore.

And the cooper ircher buddying continues!
VOTE: ircher
I'm almost sure of this now.

What happen to general chat?

But, if you find that scummy then:

VOTE: Shotty
For being opportunistic in play and deciding that general chit-chat is scum-indicative when it clearly isnt.

you can't vote you're dead.

I'm not dead.

[Ircher]

Cuz your reasoning is way off. Apparently, general chit-chat is a scumtell.

On the other hand, Zakk is sheeping your poor logic without contributing any of his own. It looks like the two of you are teammates.

Nah, this would be way to obvious. It's also not general cat chat, that tends to happen in here

Doesn't change the fact your being opportunistic.

Zakk MIGHT be town, but chances of Shotty town right now is 0.5% for me.

[Ircher]

Cuz your reasoning is way off. Apparently, general chit-chat is a scumtell.

On the other hand, Zakk is sheeping your poor logic without contributing any of his own. It looks like the two of you are teammates.

Nah, this would be way to obvious. It's also not general cat chat, that tends to happen in here

Doesn't change the fact your being opportunistic.

Zakk MIGHT be town, but chances of Shotty town right now is 0.5% for me.

It's very concerning that you find scum hunting to be a scumtell, oh wait you are just scared scum, that's right.

Scumreading people for banter is NOT scumhunting.

Mini 1763 - Yes, some of them were scum. But some of them were town. That was the (awful) game where everyone basically stopped caring. the

[Ircher]

Have you ever played with Shotty before?

Nope, never. How likely do you think he is consciously faking his own meta?

I'm telling you ircher is dead.

SirCakez is online I believe. If I truly got dayvigged, I'd be announced dead by now.

[Ircher]

Go read it. Point being is that general banter is not alignment indicative just as activity isn't.

[Ircher]

HURT WITH A BLADE: Shotty

[Ircher]

Jane Eyre.

[Ircher]

I'm harder to read than... well something hard to read.

No, you aren't. You know you aren't so stop puffing out your chest like Big Bad Leroy Brown.

You know who is though? RC.

Pedit: And how often you draw scum?

[Ircher]

I'm harder to read than... well something hard to read.

No, you aren't. You know you aren't so stop puffing out your chest like Big Bad Leroy Brown.

You know who is though? RC.

Pedit: And how often you draw scum?

I have a wiki

You draw scum 20% of the time.

All the more likely you are scum.

[Ircher]

Whatever, theoretical != practical probability. Some people are lucky, others arent.

[Ircher]

Besides, the probabilities are weighted.

[Ircher]

Cuz there is a higher chance of rolling town then scum, duh!

But, next topic.

[Ircher]

Next topic.

[Ircher]

Out of 65 games, you've been scum 18 times: 27.6%.

In 9p, yes, its 22% chance of scum.
In 13p, its 23%.

Your score, 27.6% is quite a bit on the high end. So, yes, experimentally, you are more often scum than normal.

[Ircher]

Next topic.

You're dead so there is really nothing to get out of this, I want to know your reasoning. Don't throw shit out if you can't back it up. Again this is why I shot you. You are acting like scum faking your way through.

The mod posted a VC and yet Im not dead.

[Ircher]

Normal --> 23% chance of scum. You: 28% chance of scum. 28 > 23 by 5 points.

[Ircher]

My vote was never based on statistics. Stop misrepping.

[Ircher]

hI fear this will have 20+ pages by 7:00 AM EST......

Pedit: Wasnt my argument at all. Why did you cherrypick that?

[Ircher]

My vote was never based on statistics. Stop misrepping.

Cuz there is a higher chance of rolling town then scum, duh!

But, next topic.

I'm harder to read than... well something hard to read.

No, you aren't. You know you aren't so stop puffing out your chest like Big Bad Leroy Brown.

You know who is though? RC.

Pedit: And how often you draw scum?

I have a wiki

You draw scum 20% of the time.

All the more likely you are scum.

Whatever, theoretical != practical probability. Some people are lucky, others arent.

Your the one who pressed the convo:

Also, @Titus: Interesting. I just figured Copper forgot.

VOTE: Copper

[Ircher]

I'm 13/15 times town so far.....

[Ircher]

forget it, you're boring.

anyone else?

Why ya ask me then?

[Ircher]

I am town and have had 13 town games here out of 13 on-site with 2 marathon scum games during the outage.

[Ircher]

vote killthestory

He knows why.

i cant remember the joke youre referencing kek

also, i dont remember my alignment and im too lazy to go check.

VOTE: ircher i fucking hate propabilities

Shottys the one who pressed that convo.Vote him, not me.

[Ircher]

I'm harder to read than... well something hard to read.

No, you aren't. You know you aren't so stop puffing out your chest like Big Bad Leroy Brown.

This won't help me here, but I will defend my meta here. I think my scum win rate is now like 70-80%.

I'm harder to read than... well something hard to read.

No, you aren't. You know you aren't so stop puffing out your chest like Big Bad Leroy Brown.

You know who is though? RC.

Pedit: And how often you draw scum?

I'm harder to read than... well something hard to read.

No, you aren't. You know you aren't so stop puffing out your chest like Big Bad Leroy Brown.

You know who is though? RC.

Pedit: And how often you draw scum?

I have a wiki

Shotty's the one who brought it up by mentioning his scum winrate. He's also the one who pressed the convo.

Why is everyone blaming me for the statistics convo?

PEDIT: I guess its pick on Orcher day........

[Ircher]

@Egg:

VOTE: Ircher

Haven't seen you in forever.....

This is general chit-chat and NAI. Why are you pushing it as such?

VOTE: Ircher

why?

Its RVS.

Shotty did ask. I answered. How is that scum-motivated?
Pedit:

Arent you already voting me???

[Ircher]

PEDIT: I guess its pick on Orcher day........

scumplaining

vote: ircher

peeeeerfect example/comparison for this, which i will talk about literally as soon as i can

Well, like 90% of everyone who's posted has voted me, and 75%+ of those votes are NAI reasons, so yeah, it feels like "Pick on Ircher Day".

[Ircher]

Drmy mentioned that he's good at playing scum (why bring that up if he's scum?). You turned it into the whole "how often is he scum" thing which is the part that was weird because it's only relevant if you are looking for how accurate his win % is (obviously more games would make it more representitive of his play and less would have the opposite effect) or if you are looking for meta (I didn't get that impression).

Preview edit:
The above is at Ircher.

Also Ircher, can you clarify your question? I never brought up "general chit chat" or whatever "NAI" means. And yes, drmy asked copper about his vote. The fact that you answered instead is what makes it feel jumpy.

1) He mentioned "He wins 80% of the time as scum"; just stahp.

2) You stated you didliked 11 and 12; I told you that both are NAI (Not alignment indicative)

[Ircher]

6/12 votes on me currently....

[Ircher]

Killthestory, then why didn't you answer directly? And why didn't you say you were town the first time you brought it up? How often would you say you lie as scum?

Ircher, "1" is correct and obviously wasn't my point. And I disagree with your "2" or I wouldn't be voting you.

You dont agree with it, but its a fact.

He brought up statistics, I did not; end of discussion.

[Ircher]

Ok, all 6 of you who are voting me:

Make me a detailed case not only pointing out what is scummy but also explaining in detail why its scummy. What Egg has done is not by any means close to what I'm asking for.

Pedit: Except, general chit-chat and answering questions isnt scummy. Thats a fact.

[Ircher]

If that happens, remember when I flip town that Shotty and Egg were the two huge activists for the lynch.

Pedit:

1) Maybe fallacious, not scum indicative
2) "One-Size-Does-Not-Fit-All"
3) That's stupid cuz this wagon is crap
4) But why this wagon?
5) I already defended myself more than adequately. Not an argument.
6) Ok, have bullets just for bullets.

Only 1 good argument out of the 6 bullets you provided; try harder.

Pedit: @Titus -- My vote's on Copper right now. I have to explain this to these hard-heads though.

[Ircher]

Laugh all you want, if he flips scum you're next.

Kill: Ircher

If you caught Ircher scum on page 1 I'll be happy to go next.

VOTE: Cooper

VOTE: Ircher

Haven't seen you in forever.....

Tis true but now I'm playing a few, how is it going?

Laugh all you want, if he flips scum you're next.

Kill: Ircher

If you caught Ircher scum on page 1 I'll be happy to go next.

Cooper RVSes Ircher.

If Cooper thinks Ircher is scum, why would cooper be ok with being lynched for being correct? If cooper thinks Ircher is town, why is Cooper still voting him?

This is what we

ought

to be discussing.

Pedit: @Titus
Mainly Egg and Shotty right now.

[Ircher]

Titus, which Ircher votes do you think are RVS?

Especially this post from Egg which is a blatant attempt to keep the focus on me. Not to mention, Egg doesnt pay any attn to your comment on Copper.

[Ircher]

@Zakk
Why do you feel Titus's logic for voting Copper is invalid? It is true he's still voting me despite showing a strong belief I'm town.

[Ircher]

@Titus
Why did you quote me?

[Ircher]

It was addressed at Zakk but you said KTS. So, obviously, Id be confused about that.

[Ircher]

@Egg You have yet to provide a good case why.

What do you have against what Titus shared about Copper?

Pedit: Ikr.

[Ircher]

Ircher, kindly shut the fuck up. The more your case gets talked about, the more credence it appears to have although it's total garbage RVS. You know it. I know it. If you actually did the slightest thing scummy, I'd be all over it. You just haven't.

You realize how Copper has displayed

actual inconsistencies

and people are pushing awkard things you are saying because they don't like math. Get real.

[Ircher]

Like?

[Ircher]

If I am scum that would be a serious problem, accidentaly lynching your own teammates or the sk, effectively reducing the kills per night in a large game will lead to your demise

This really reads as a SK claim.

VOTE: Seth

@Shotty
You decided to fherrypick meta ne? Thats not how meta works.

[Ircher]

why don't you explain your motives here, shotty.

explain it to me.

Nah I think I'll be selfish and keep my reasons to myself.

VOTE: Shotty

Yeah, no. Die in a lynch.

i'm just being selfish and wanting to keep it on hand for future games with you. in any case, i dont really have the energy or willingness to put a ton of effort into convincing people.

Nah, you see ETL is still laying the groundwork for her thoughts. She's just not forcing it.

You're shutting down and giving half baked answers to questions. You're refusing to form a read on ETL when she's pushing you. That is pretty scummy. Even if you're wrong, you should have an opinion. This whole saying someone is bad and not giving an alignment doesn't work. I want evidence you are scumhunting. I don't see it.

There's plenty to form a guess on TBG. You got nothing.

Copper's posted less and you have a read on him. The Copper/Ircher/Titus scumreads make no sense.

The three of you came out hard defending Copper. That was a mistake.

I really agree with this read, and I'm fine with Brawl or Copper too right now.
VOTE: Shotty

[Ircher]

Ill try to do isos over the weekend, but from going through and reading, Lies esp. strikes me as town so far. Anen's one post has struck me on scum side since its similar to the way Anen acted in Mechanics UPICK (Micro 600). Ill do other people later.

[Ircher]

I have read nothing and everything at the same time. Ircher seems most scum atm so I'll go with him for now

VOTE: Ircher

Lazy.

Who else do you scumread?

[Ircher]

It is quite funny, but I like the other scum right nw (Shotty, Brawl, Copoer)

[Ircher]

Hey Heur, I know Ive done single quoting like that before, but if you are going to make a lot of comments and quotes, it might be wiser to copy and paste them to another doc & have it all in the same post.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Shotty ISO May 21

1. 10 - Asks Copper why he voted me -

I just cannot understand why Shotty asked Copper about his vote like that. One idea could be Shotty/Copper scum with Shotty distancing from Copper. Another option is Shotty is super paranoid about things, but I don't get that vibe from Shotty's later posts. One thing I'm sure of though is it is very odd and seems out of place. -

-1 Point

2. 15 - Accuses me of defending Copper -

I don't understand this post really either. Copper's vote was obviously RVS and you did ask why. Granted, not addressed at me, but that would've been the answer almost anyone who did answer would have given, simply cuz that's a fact. -

-3 Points

3. 20 - Buddying accusation at Copper and me -

Ok, start thinking Shotty. I'm not saying it's impossible, but a Copper/Ircher team at that moment was actually unlikely. Why would we as scummates have a real need to defend each other mutually when your scumread had no solid basis? Your analysis doesn't make the most sense & is full of bias. -

0 Points

4. 34 - States general chit-chat happens *only* in General Discussion -

This has got to be one of the worst posts I've seen (maybe the worst) outside the newbie queue. Have you never seen players act friendly towards each other in RVS simply because they played before (or know each other in RL, but not the case here). That sort of stuff is general chit-chat and should be considered null 99/100 times. -

-5 Points

5. 38 - Claims I'm dead -

Do tell me Shotty, why do you keep saying I'm dead when I'm clearly not. Once or twice might have been fine for RVS purposes, but continuing to push it for 10 pages is ridiculous and it seems like you are actually trying to use it as proof I'm scum. -

-1 Point

6. 43 - "activity is, trust me. Also why are you so jolted if it doesn't matter? Town shouldn't get this excited, well I guess I did just kill you." -

What is this? Now you're trying to use stereotypes and "One-Size-Fits-All" arguments to advance your case. -

-3 Points

7. 185 - Shotty's scumread on me @ this point is based on not playing exactly like previous games and the stat discussion. Also states Zakk is TPR -

Both of your arguments are null. Let's cover the statistics one first though -- Whether silly and/or stupid, the statistics is just null cuz town can be just as silly and/or stupid as scum can be. Now, the argument that I do not mention my # of town games in other games -- Not AI because 1) Metas change 2) I'm gonna bet that you looked only at 1 or 2 games, excluding the marathon games at the shelter and 3) The argument itself is not how meta works; you were looking for an exact, specific thing, but meta doesn't work that way. Playstyle/Personality is what meta should be used for, and looking to see what I exactly do or do not say about myself is too specific for meta purposes. Finally, your TPR comment - Why TPR? I would not be surprised if this game is multiball (as a large, it probably is), but what made you think TPR specificly and why are you even actively searching for one. You didn't even provide evidence. -

-5 Points

8. 204 - Says I'm very easy to read -

Do you know how many times I've been mislynched as town cuz of playstyle? Countless number of times, and yet you are claiming I'm easy to read. Since you apparently did meta me, I want to ask what about my past games makes you think that argument is still valid. Anyone who actually looks and pays attn realizes it isn't that simple. -

-1 Point

9. 241 - Easier to scumhunt not town than is scum -

No, no, no, you got this all wrong. Hunting for anti-town things is gonna make towns ML a ton of players who are newer and/or accidentally commit scumtells. Searching for evidence proving someone is scum is the correct way to go imo because its more foolproof. You try to analyze motive rather than just looking at words. -

0 Points

10. 274 - Says Titus is changing definition of defend -

I might be biased here, but Titus is right. Defenses don't have to be direct, and in fact, there's a term for what Titus is accusing you of: Chainsawing - An indirect defense by targeting the player's attacker. Ok, on second thought, you're not chainsawing since I never attacked Copper, but you were still indirectly defending Copper by attacking me. -

-1 Point

11. 319 - Claims (once again) I'm conf!scum without the guilty -

Ok, this is really annoying me, and you've yet to give a solid reason as to why you think there's a 97+% chance I'm scum. Please do, or stop claiming I'm conf!scum. -

-1 Point

12. 391 - Defends Cythe by stating he's being lazy -

If it weren't for the rest of your iso, which might I mention has been 95% focused on me, yet never gave a single good reason why I'm scum, I would townread you for this post. But, considering the rest of your iso, this feels like a scumbuddy defense. -

-1 Point

Total Score: -22 points
Average Score: -1.83 (-22 / 12)
Final Score: -2.83 (Out of -6; includes bias score of -1)

[Ircher]

The reason why I think this either has multiple scumteams or an SK is because its a large & would run too slowly without some extra kills.

Current Speculations:

Shotty, Cythe - Mafia A
Copper, Zakk - Mafia B

[Ircher]

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Shotty ISO May 21

1. 10 - Asks Copper why he voted me -

I just cannot understand why Shotty asked Copper about his vote like that. One idea could be Shotty/Copper scum with Shotty distancing from Copper. Another option is Shotty is super paranoid about things, but I don't get that vibe from Shotty's later posts. One thing I'm sure of though is it is very odd and seems out of place. -

-1 Point

2. 15 - Accuses me of defending Copper -

I don't understand this post really either. Copper's vote was obviously RVS and you did ask why. Granted, not addressed at me, but that would've been the answer almost anyone who did answer would have given, simply cuz that's a fact. -

-3 Points

3. 20 - Buddying accusation at Copper and me -

Ok, start thinking Shotty. I'm not saying it's impossible, but a Copper/Ircher team at that moment was actually unlikely. Why would we as scummates have a real need to defend each other mutually when your scumread had no solid basis? Your analysis doesn't make the most sense & is full of bias. -

0 Points

4. 34 - States general chit-chat happens *only* in General Discussion -

This has got to be one of the worst posts I've seen (maybe the worst) outside the newbie queue. Have you never seen players act friendly towards each other in RVS simply because they played before (or know each other in RL, but not the case here). That sort of stuff is general chit-chat and should be considered null 99/100 times. -

-5 Points

5. 38 - Claims I'm dead -

Do tell me Shotty, why do you keep saying I'm dead when I'm clearly not. Once or twice might have been fine for RVS purposes, but continuing to push it for 10 pages is ridiculous and it seems like you are actually trying to use it as proof I'm scum. -

-1 Point

6. 43 - "activity is, trust me. Also why are you so jolted if it doesn't matter? Town shouldn't get this excited, well I guess I did just kill you." -

What is this? Now you're trying to use stereotypes and "One-Size-Fits-All" arguments to advance your case. -

-3 Points

7. 185 - Shotty's scumread on me @ this point is based on not playing exactly like previous games and the stat discussion. Also states Zakk is TPR -

Both of your arguments are null. Let's cover the statistics one first though -- Whether silly and/or stupid, the statistics is just null cuz town can be just as silly and/or stupid as scum can be. Now, the argument that I do not mention my # of town games in other games -- Not AI because 1) Metas change 2) I'm gonna bet that you looked only at 1 or 2 games, excluding the marathon games at the shelter and 3) The argument itself is not how meta works; you were looking for an exact, specific thing, but meta doesn't work that way. Playstyle/Personality is what meta should be used for, and looking to see what I exactly do or do not say about myself is too specific for meta purposes. Finally, your TPR comment - Why TPR? I would not be surprised if this game is multiball (as a large, it probably is), but what made you think TPR specificly and why are you even actively searching for one. You didn't even provide evidence. -

-5 Points

8. 204 - Says I'm very easy to read -

Do you know how many times I've been mislynched as town cuz of playstyle? Countless number of times, and yet you are claiming I'm easy to read. Since you apparently did meta me, I want to ask what about my past games makes you think that argument is still valid. Anyone who actually looks and pays attn realizes it isn't that simple. -

-1 Point

9. 241 - Easier to scumhunt not town than is scum -

No, no, no, you got this all wrong. Hunting for anti-town things is gonna make towns ML a ton of players who are newer and/or accidentally commit scumtells. Searching for evidence proving someone is scum is the correct way to go imo because its more foolproof. You try to analyze motive rather than just looking at words. -

0 Points

10. 274 - Says Titus is changing definition of defend -

I might be biased here, but Titus is right. Defenses don't have to be direct, and in fact, there's a term for what Titus is accusing you of: Chainsawing - An indirect defense by targeting the player's attacker. Ok, on second thought, you're not chainsawing since I never attacked Copper, but you were still indirectly defending Copper by attacking me. -

-1 Point

11. 319 - Claims (once again) I'm conf!scum without the guilty -

Ok, this is really annoying me, and you've yet to give a solid reason as to why you think there's a 97+% chance I'm scum. Please do, or stop claiming I'm conf!scum. -

-1 Point

12. 391 - Defends Cythe by stating he's being lazy -

If it weren't for the rest of your iso, which might I mention has been 95% focused on me, yet never gave a single good reason why I'm scum, I would townread you for this post. But, considering the rest of your iso, this feels like a scumbuddy defense. -

-1 Point

Total Score: -22 points
Average Score: -1.83 (-22 / 12)
Final Score: -2.83 (Out of -6; includes bias score of -1)

lmfao wtf is this...

@ETL
What do you dislike / think is stupid about 412?

[Ircher]

Expedience, that was probably Anen's post but can you explain why you don't like that from Copper?

I didn't notice what Titus pointed out. It was too confident and seemed more about betting on Ircher being town than the read being too early, sort of. Like he knew Ircher was town.

Ircher might be town, not sure. Shotty is surely town.

Why is Shotty town? He's literally been trying to find every single minor reason to scumread me.

He's fitting evidence to reads instead of reads to evidence.

[Ircher]

Ok, Cythe, was gonna give benefit of the doubt, but your last posts changed my mind.

VOTE: Cythe

[Ircher]

Then, you think most of his reasons for scumreading me are perfectly valid?

[Ircher]

Expedience, that was probably Anen's post but can you explain why you don't like that from Copper?

I didn't notice what Titus pointed out. It was too confident and seemed more about betting on Ircher being town than the read being too early, sort of. Like he knew Ircher was town.

Ircher might be town, not sure. Shotty is surely town.

Why is Shotty town? He's literally been trying to find every single minor reason to scumread me.

He's fitting evidence to reads instead of reads to evidence.

Not really.

Then, you think most of his reasons for scumreading me are perfectly valid?

???

[Ircher]

Nvm, I guess. I was saying Shotty to me does not appear to be genuinely scumreading but rather trying to find every reason to prove Im scum even if its obviously a null thing.

[Ircher]

@Titus
So far, Ive liked your thought process plus Ive been lazy & not been doing isos.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Copper ISO MAY 21

1. 29 - Willing to be lynched if I'm scum -

I think this is a somewhat risky statement to make. As either alignment, it strongly suggests both Copper & I are not both anti-town. I'm leaning town here though. -

+1 Point

2. 159 -

In the @Titus section: a) No, but I would change as soon as I got a scumread. Maybe unvote if the RVSed player is town imo. b) Ok. c) His anakysis was valid imo. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. Overall, I get probably town reads from this post. It seems like a decent response to me. -

+2 Points

3. 169 - Votes Nos in 167 because of attacking me for statistics not town mindset -

I dunno.... I feel that of all the things Copper could have chosen, this just feels.... Well, this just feels nitpickey. Not sure if this is town or scum really...... -

0 Points

4. 179 -

When I look at the last few posts of Copper, I can't but help think that Copper is very skilled in rhetoric. He's like Cassius who turned the crowd against Brutus in the William Shakespearean play

The Tragedy of Julius Caesar

. I just cannot help thinking he's trying to manipulate people with his rhetorical skills. -

0 Points

5. 318 - Coming around on a scumread on me -

I fundamentally disagree with your approach here, and it really reads more as "I should change my read, so I can lynch him if necessary." Srry, but that's the motive I saw there. -

-2 Points

6.

It perplexes me as to why Copper decided to keep his vote on Nosferatu. Has Nos really struck your radar so much? If so, I think you need to expound on your earlier explanation for voting Nos. -

-1 Point

Total Score: 0 points
Average Score: 0 (0 / 6)
Final Score: -0.5 (In range of -6 to 6; includes bias score of -0.5)

[Ircher]

1) I believed Titus was being reaasoning
2) Ah, my mistake.

New Score: +1 Point
Average Score: +0.17
Final Score: -0.33

[Ircher]

He imo simply seems more annoyed with me rather than scumreading me, but I may be wrong.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Egg ISO MAY 21

1. 103 - Reasons why Egg votes me -

1) Shotty asked why. How come does answering make my posts scummy & yet you townread Shotty? 2) It is not OMGUS when it had merit 3) Not a scumtell, the prob. discussion. Your case is completely biased and sounds more like "This Ircher wagon looks great.... I'll jump on board!" -

-3 Points

2. 315 -

This looks like a town-motivated post. As to your Q about the SK comment -- Why not? SK has a NK too. Anyway, it was based on 1 post, so yeah...... -

+3 Points

3. 376 - Readlist..... -

This readlist really doesn't make sense. How was I still your biggest scumread? Are you truly that biased? Shotty is in your strong town section yet Titus is not. Why? Your Zakk townread is 99% meta based, shouldn't you show a little caution there? You're also scumreading KTS, but I don't understand why. This just seems like a random readslist you put together. -

-1 Point

Realky don't like this guy's tunnel. Seems too biased for scum though.......

Total Score: -1 point
Average Score: -0.16 (-1 / 6)
Final Score: -0.16 (In range of -6 to 6; includes bias score of 0)

[Ircher]

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Copper ISO MAY 21

1. 29 - Willing to be lynched if I'm scum -

I think this is a somewhat risky statement to make. As either alignment, it strongly suggests both Copper & I are not both anti-town. I'm leaning town here though. -

+1 Point

2. 159 -

In the @Titus section: a) No, but I would change as soon as I got a scumread. Maybe unvote if the RVSed player is town imo. b) Ok. c) His anakysis was valid imo. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. Overall, I get probably town reads from this post. It seems like a decent response to me. -

+2 Points

3. 169 - Votes Nos in 167 because of attacking me for statistics not town mindset -

I dunno.... I feel that of all the things Copper could have chosen, this just feels.... Well, this just feels nitpickey. Not sure if this is town or scum really...... -

0 Points

4. 179 -

When I look at the last few posts of Copper, I can't but help think that Copper is very skilled in rhetoric. He's like Cassius who turned the crowd against Brutus in the William Shakespearean play

The Tragedy of Julius Caesar

. I just cannot help thinking he's trying to manipulate people with his rhetorical skills. -

0 Points

5. 318 - Coming around on a scumread on me -

I fundamentally disagree with your approach here, and it really reads more as "I should change my read, so I can lynch him if necessary." Srry, but that's the motive I saw there. -

-2 Points

6.

It perplexes me as to why Copper decided to keep his vote on Nosferatu. Has Nos really struck your radar so much? If so, I think you need to expound on your earlier explanation for voting Nos. -

-1 Point

Total Score: 0 points
Average Score: 0 (0 / 6)
Final Score: -0.5 (In range of -6 to 6; includes bias score of -0.5)

I mean... what?

What's there not to get?

The numbers aren't that important for you guys as it will be for me later.

[Ircher]

Nah, I need to find them quickly.

The long and short of them is that - indicates scum while + indicates town, and the farther from zero indicates the strength.

[Ircher]

Its not arbitrary. But yes, generally, if its related to me, Im more likely to comment.

[Ircher]

@Shotty
You need to stop, as you seriously do not understand me at all.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Copper ISO MAY 21

1. 29 - Willing to be lynched if I'm scum -

I think this is a somewhat risky statement to make. As either alignment, it strongly suggests both Copper & I are not both anti-town. I'm leaning town here though. -

+1 Point

2. 159 -

In the @Titus section: a) No, but I would change as soon as I got a scumread. Maybe unvote if the RVSed player is town imo. b) Ok. c) His anakysis was valid imo. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. Overall, I get probably town reads from this post. It seems like a decent response to me. -

+2 Points

3. 169 - Votes Nos in 167 because of attacking me for statistics not town mindset -

I dunno.... I feel that of all the things Copper could have chosen, this just feels.... Well, this just feels nitpickey. Not sure if this is town or scum really...... -

0 Points

4. 179 -

When I look at the last few posts of Copper, I can't but help think that Copper is very skilled in rhetoric. He's like Cassius who turned the crowd against Brutus in the William Shakespearean play

The Tragedy of Julius Caesar

. I just cannot help thinking he's trying to manipulate people with his rhetorical skills. -

0 Points

5. 318 - Coming around on a scumread on me -

I fundamentally disagree with your approach here, and it really reads more as "I should change my read, so I can lynch him if necessary." Srry, but that's the motive I saw there. -

-2 Points

6.

It perplexes me as to why Copper decided to keep his vote on Nosferatu. Has Nos really struck your radar so much? If so, I think you need to expound on your earlier explanation for voting Nos. -

-1 Point

Total Score: 0 points
Average Score: 0 (0 / 6)
Final Score: -0.5 (In range of -6 to 6; includes bias score of -0.5)

I mean... what?

What's there not to get?

The

reasons

for the numbers.

Why

is the particular post positive or negative?

Why

is the particular post weighted at 1, or 2, or 3?

The numbers aren't that important for you guys as it will be for me later.

What will you get from them later? Also, how do you know that you'll get something from them later? I just checked a handful of your games and don't see you using this system. Can you point to a game where you've used it?

It looks like this is just a way of pretending to analyze without really doing so.

VOTE: Ircher

On an unrelated note, I was concerned with the way ETL and Titus fell into an easy early alliance. Good to see that breaking up.

I'll be using it when I make readlists later. Easier way to keep track of my thoughts. 1 to 5 again is based on how I feel. If I feel town has a good chance of doing the same, then its 1, etc. In the past, I used words such as "Null-Indicative", "Null-Scum-Indicative", "Town Indicative", "Very Scum-Indicative", etc. 1 is about Null-X, 3 is just X, and 5 is Very X.

I really dont see how all of you find such a system scummy, other than the reachy argument that Im pretending to analyze.

[Ircher]

I agree with Titus, ETL. If you think she's coaching Ircher because they are scum together, Ircher is the better lynch today. If he flips scum, you can tell us all about this coaching. As of right now, it's an associative tell to a living player. Not really worthy of a vote.

Ircher, I decided I was voting you before I realized there was a wagon. I acknowledged the wagon and that it wasn't a problem, but unless you think I'd lie so blatantly when voting, you didn't even read where I voted you. As for the reads list, yeah you're still my strongest scum read. Why does that have to change? Yes, drmy is a stronger town read than Titus. It's hard to trust a town read on Titus. Why should I have been cautious of a zakk town read at that point? The worst thing he's done is his cythefly vote which isn't even that bad and hadn't happened yet. And I already said why killthestory is scum. If you think that readslist is random, you haven't read a thing I've posted. And to say I'm tunneling you is crazy. I've got a read on basically every active player and I'm actually having a tough time deciding between you and cythefly (I doubt you are both scum). Yes, my vote has remained on you. But for someone who just ISO'd me, you either aren't truly reading or are intentionally misrepping.

Also, Ircher, I agree with Titus. If this whole thing isn't meant to be understood by everyone else, put it somewhere else as notes. Otherwise it looks like pointless busywork.

You neeed to elaborate on your scumread on me. Cuz, your explanation so far is not convincing to me nor lynchworthy.

[Ircher]

Cuz, your explanation so far is not convincing to me nor lynchworthy.

You realize we are talking about your lynch here? How is Egg supposed to make it look lynchworthy to you given that from your point of view he has to be wrong by default?

He could do better than some rvs things & statistical discussions, and sk/multiball speculations (which is actually fair to assume in a large cuz otherwise it will last like 10 days; there's bound to be another killing role in the game)

I have yet to find him mention any other reasons, so I find it hard to believe that his read on me is 1) a fair read and 2) That strong of a read.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Brawl ISO MAY 22

1. 171 -

I feel mixed here tbh. 1) I agree with Project's analysis. A wagon does not need to exist for one to set themselves up to switch. 2) What do you think my tone was at the time? 3) The quote's bolded, that argument is fair. 4) You really saw it as forced? And, how is answering questions poorly (cuz the only 1 I answered poorly I believe was the statistical one) alignment indicative? I guess that's an interpretation thing. The read seems decent & supported, so --

+3 Points

2. 509 - Comments on motive of Titus's I'll be on the biggest of XXX/YYY/ZZZ wagon -

This post looks pretty good to me. I definitely agree with the comment on Titus's motive. -

+3 Points

3. 516 -

I think Brawl is being honest and genuine here, yet at the same time, the AtE seems like an overreaction. -

+1 Point

Total Score: +7 points
Average Score: +2.33 (7 / 3)
Final Score: +2.33 (In range of -6 to 6; includes bias score of 0)

Looked better than I thought

[Ircher]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _vs._Large

[Ircher]

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Brawl ISO MAY 22

1. 171 -

I feel mixed here tbh. 1) I agree with Project's analysis. A wagon does not need to exist for one to set themselves up to switch. 2) What do you think my tone was at the time? 3) The quote's bolded, that argument is fair. 4) You really saw it as forced? And, how is answering questions poorly (cuz the only 1 I answered poorly I believe was the statistical one) alignment indicative? I guess that's an interpretation thing. The read seems decent & supported, so --

+3 Points

2. 509 - Comments on motive of Titus's I'll be on the biggest of XXX/YYY/ZZZ wagon -

This post looks pretty good to me. I definitely agree with the comment on Titus's motive. -

+3 Points

3. 516 -

I think Brawl is being honest and genuine here, yet at the same time, the AtE seems like an overreaction. -

+1 Point

Total Score: +7 points
Average Score: +2.33 (7 / 3)
Final Score: +2.33 (In range of -6 to 6; includes bias score of 0)

Looked better than I thought

2) At what time?
4) I don't recall you answering any questions poorly, personally, but you saying that "answering questions isnt scummy" is dumb. Of course one can give scummy answers to questions. And yes, I did and still do see the interactions between you/shotty as weird. I also see the shotty/titus and titus/you interactions as weird.

2) Post 171
4) Thats what you commented on in that post. I guess you're right about answering CAN be scummy depending on the content, so answering questions well isn't scummy.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Cythefly ISO MAY 22

1. 323 - At page 11, and says will finish up -

You are to page 11 and have zero thoughts? Seriously? Lazy and scum-motivated. -

-3 Points

2. 366 - 4 hours later; "I have read nothing and everything at the same time. Ircher seems most scum atm so I'll go with him for now" -

This is just plain awful! At least everyone else gave AT LEAST ONE reason (even if not good imo) to vote me. Also, how do you read everything & nothing at the same time? If you're town, stop being super lazy. If you are scum, stop being lazy. That was like the most lazy, scum-motivated thing you could at the time. -

-5 Points

3. 422 - Another post; literally says that this is his first macro game and so he'll just be a potato and watch the votes. Also, the AtE of lynch me, I'll be useful later -

Why not be useful right now. Like, explain your read on me (and the rest of the game) rather than just prod-dodge and take a super lazy, inactive role. This is also scum-motivated. -

-5 Points

4. 425 -

This is as bad as the previous ones..... Ugh...... -

-4 Points

Zero town motivation in those posts and like 95% scum motivation to make such posts.

Total Score: -17 points
Average Score: -4.25 (17 / 4)
Final Score: -5.25 (In range of -6 to 6; includes bias score of -1)

Pedit: Doing absolutely nothing & making "Ill help tomorrow" posts is scum-motivated cuz scum dont want to scumhunt cuz they cant.

[Ircher]

Activity isn't alignment-indicative, but active lurking is, and that's what you are doing.

[Ircher]

Drmy, what were you referncing with your first post?

Vote Ircher

For posts 11 and 12. I've never liked it when people stress that votes on them are RVS. And the post before it feels nervous about being voted while trying not to convey that.

Copper, which of Ircher's posts on Page 1 gave you the "sure of himself" vibe?

Ircher's OMGUS crusade against drmy is pretty bad.

I lost brain cells reading the probability discussion on Page 3.

I've got at least some level of a town read on drmy, copper, zakk, and Magna (in that order). That's as of the end of Page 3. Will say so if that changes.

Killthestory, you said you know your alignment now. What is it?

Acknowledging that an Ircher wagon exists. I'm gonna keep my vote there.

I don't think Ircher read my points against him. That or he wrongfully assumes it was RVS. I don't remember making a single RVS point in this game though.

I addressed that post in the ISO. If you are refering to a different post, then yes, I probably missed it.

[Ircher]

Well, can you reiterate them pls.

[Ircher]

1) Fair, but I wouldn't say AI
2) Not a misrep. Stubborn, yes, but not misrepping, as what was stated was factual even if analysis was wrong
3) I did not dismiss it, I did not see anyone really bring up new reasons.
4) The statistics was silly but not scummy. The other I have done similarly in previous ones of my latest games.
5) Cuz I didn't feel your reasons were being fair (and currently still don't)
6) SK push? That's a misrep. Yes, I commented and voted, but not really a push imo. Otherwise, this is a fairly valid point.
7) It's the way he (and you) are being nitpickey about stuff.
8) That's your opinion and rather weak when you can't support the busywork comment

I'll stop pushing this angle cuz we're getting no where, but all save 1 to 3 points are valid and strong enough to be considered in such a strong scumread. The rest seems to be the result of confirmation bias.

[Ircher]

Scum do not have mechanical day talk

BAM.

Titus is scum. With Ircher.

*dance*

I dont get that conclusion.

[Ircher]

Just notice cythefly's join date and not quite as convinced anymore. Nonetheless, some level of effort (which I'm not seeing) should be made to explain any reads he does have.

[Ircher]

Ircher will be V/LA from 5/30 to 6/3

[Ircher]

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Seth ISO MAY 24

1. 183 -

This "clarifucation" really reads as an SK slip. Nonetheless, it is probably just worded poorly. -

0 Points

2. 646 - Derails and defends Cythefly -

I don't like this defense, simply cuz Cythefly is just prod-dodging and/or throwing random, naked accusations at players for whatever is convenient at the time. Apathy? I would think they would help more. Newbie Town? Wouldn't be throwing naked accusations around the entire time. Apathetic Newbie Town? Possibly, but I doubt it. The defense, by association, makes you look sorta bad. -

-1 Point

[/i

Boring, but short ISO.....

Total Score: -1 points
Average Score: -0.50 (-1 / 2)
Final Score: -1 (In range of -6 to 6; includes bias score of -0.5)

[Ircher]

Ircher, what are your thoughts on his 811?

Wording is pretty weird again. I'd say Seth isn't intentionally misrepping you by stating you are misdirecting, but it does sound like Seth knows more than us.

[Ircher]

Nothing that sticks out to me really. I think I'm inclined to be leaning town atm, but that could change.

[Ircher]

I have Seth as Lean Town with some major concerns over the way he has worded a lot of stuff.

[Ircher]

I havent isod you Kill, but I'd prob. lean town rn.

[Ircher]

I agree with Percival

[Ircher]

In post 659, SethYazura wrote:
You can easily single out newbies from an experienced and everyone can do it.
An experienced knows the concequences of posting in the same way as cytheflyguy, cy posted like that because he doesn't.

And. That. Is. Not. An. Alignment. Tell.

I've noticed that town are more likely to point out things that are not really alignment tells. Scum would want other player coming up with tells and voting others.

Town points for Aneninen

Dont be fooled by content. Anen really knows how to fluff like in Newbie 1682.

Anen can also let Anen get super lost like in Micro 600: Mechanics Upick

[Ircher]

I prob wont have a readslist anytime soon...

I might could wing it....

[Ircher]

Nah.

I haven't used my colored readslist in a while.

[Ircher]

@Zakk, I can be pretty dominant regardless of alignment. Dominance just indicates I have something I want to push. While it may be a towntell for most, it probably isn't for me. (See Newbie 1388 for scum dominance). There's more recent examples but if you want to see scum personality, go to the core IMO.

My wagon is basically most of the scum from the Ircher wagon.
I'm going to have to wall Pers sooner rather than later. Bah. Pers is not scum merely for voting me. His whole interactions of hard defending ETL don't sit well with me, nor did his assertion that he didn't care what TBG flipped while doubtcasting the wagon so hard. His vote on Magna was crappy too. Basically, I cannot find anything to like on Persivul.

Why no love for TBG wagon?

The fact that these wagons aren't getting pushed very hard is indicative of the fact that there aren't many or any scum on your or ircher's wagon.

This is imo false and pretty poor.

1) So, town don't push hard? Cuz that's what you literally said.
2) What makes you think my wagon wasn't pushed hard?

[Ircher]

When I caught Oceanwind scum

Wait Oceanwind is a Pers alt?

Nosferatu - lean town. I disagree with Nos on Cy scumclaiming, but only through my own experience. I see where he gets it from. I like 444. I highly think Shotty just selectively responded rather than clicking on just a solitary link. I would like to hear more from Nos.

Please explain how that ISO is lean Town. There is very little content there. Literally my fact when I saw this was …

The fact that these wagons aren't getting pushed very hard is indicative of the fact that there aren't many or any scum on your or ircher's wagon.

Are you floating the concept that Ircher’s wagon was not being pushed very hard? The fact that it has gone away doesn’t mean it wasn’t strongly fueled.

My point is people are saying the same scum on Ircher's wagon jump over to titus. I think it is much more likely that this is town jump from scum to another scum. If it were scum jumping around the wagons would have waited for town and pushed really hard. It's not that the wagons weren't fueled strongly, it's that enough of the town had other reads and scum wasn't going to start bussing yet.

Why do you insist Titus and I are scum? Why cant it be 2 Town or 1 Town and 1 Scum? You are making no sense and continue to try to push this tunnel you've had since pre-game. Go look at it from the opp. perspective, would ya?

[Ircher]

VOTE: Ircher

why?

Its RVS.

Why are you already defending him?

VOTE: Ircher

Sheeping too hard.

Lol.

can you pls provide at least 4 reasons why ircher is town


p-edit: welp i wonder if thats real

He is trying to comfirm ircher scum, not by ircher being scum but rather by someone else's inability to provide x reason for him being town.

@Ircher
Nice, I can already tell you are more sure of yourself compared to when we played the first time.

@dr
Increased likelyhood of getting a read compared to another random, but since Ircher's been playing a lot that's not necessarily true anymore.

And the cooper ircher buddying continues!
VOTE: ircher
I'm almost sure of this now.

What happen to general chat?

But, if you find that scummy then:

VOTE: Shotty
For being opportunistic in play and deciding that general chit-chat is scum-indicative when it clearly isnt.

you can't vote you're dead.

Seriously did anyone take my fake vig seriously? Zakk seemed to have, and kinda wanted to run with it.

@Ircher
Nice, I can already tell you are more sure of yourself compared to when we played the first time.

@dr
Increased likelyhood of getting a read compared to another random, but since Ircher's been playing a lot that's not necessarily true anymore.

And the cooper ircher buddying continues!
VOTE: ircher
I'm almost sure of this now.

What happen to general chat?

But, if you find that scummy then:

VOTE: Shotty
For being opportunistic in play and deciding that general chit-chat is scum-indicative when it clearly isnt.

you can't vote you're dead.

I'm not dead.

Spoiler: nonsense you'll be stone dead in a moment

He is beating my dead horse, this is scummy as hell.

Only 5/21 players have posted so far and we're already on page 3, almost page 4...

Unvote

I'll be back when there's something worth reading...

Providing an excuse to lurk, scummy.

PEDIT: I guess its pick on Orcher day........

scumplaining

vote: ircher

peeeeerfect example/comparison for this, which i will talk about literally as soon as i can

Scumplaining? More like conf bias.

I don't feel like Titus copper case is invalid, mayhaps I should've just said I'm not interested in it right now

JUICIER juiciness is afoot.

Backpedaling, and with an awful explination.

not buying titus' copper stuff btw

but I do
VOTE: Copper

eh

Sup.

Titus and Icher are town.

I'm going to ignore the arguments that have already taken place and vote for the actual mafia.

Vote: TehBrawlGuy

The whole statistics discussion is stupid and doesn't read natural. Feels like a poor attempt at distancing to me, as does Ircher's "go vote shotty". VOTE: Ircher

Copper case has no real merit imo. Copper had no reason to unvote/vote anyone else, but also no reason to actually believe Ircher was more likely to be scum than anyone else at the time.

Primarily because in this post, he is setting himself up to vote for both Shotty/Ircher as opposed to taking one side. It looks like he's trying really hard to agree with both players at the same time.

Also, I want to see him under pressure.

I like your style. I think you're town.

He is town reading someone for play style.... this is scum trying to do something.

i keep seeing DGB, zito, and reck, with every post he makes.

this is the biggest compliment I have ever got, I'm literally in tears

shut the fuck up shitty

I mean seriously?

i'm back


titus are you sure persivul isn't a scum lean just because he's voting you?
you seem pretty omgus-y this game, unlike what i would expect from you


not a fan of the ircher wagon at all.

not a fan of the TBG wagon at all.


ETL vs titus felt kind of contrived. they both come out looking worse to me
i don't like the nitpicky-ness, it seemed far too nitpicky on both their parts

all this battle-of-the-ego stuff is very meh, to me


titus + ircher is null
titus > copper is bad


titus is just appearing everywhere now isn't she



that's probably a towntell.

wagon on her is curious. i highly doubt titus does this as town.

So the guy trying to lynch ircher off of my fake bullshit it now against the ircher wagon as soon as it looses momentum? No way.

This case is bad and the reason is that a lot of these points could be made against you too.

1) How can you tell between faked and genuine sheeping at that point? (or exaggerated/genuine)
2) Fair, but fairly null to me. 4 reasons at that point though is asking a bit much.
3) Ok, but the fact you had to mention it 25 times could trick someone into believe it. Also, how do you know he wasn't extending the joke, and if you did know that, how is that indicative of scum?
4) Not very fair considering the time and how much he had posted so far. He wanted to let other players participate too. Plus, Zakk never lurked.
5) And how is your read on me not confirmation bias? And since when has confirmation bias been a scumtell? Town tunnel too, perhaps more so.
6) I'm not sure on this one. Perhaps valid.
7) Not valid. Knowing how to read a playstyle is important imo as it decreases errors. And you quite frankly do not have any idea of what my playstyle is.
8) Again, how is this at all indicative of alignment?
9) Opportunistic timing, but is it really all that opportunistic after all? I find it null for now.

I'm back to this:

VOTE: Shotty

[Ircher]

ok i made it to page 33 and now im lazy

VOTE: Ircher

Explanation?

[Ircher]

@Nahdia
What has Seth done between page 20 and page 33 to go from IDK LOL to top townread?

there is no "top". within a category there is no particular order.

his defense of cytheflyguy is what gave him townpoints tho.

Why is him saying that cyto is a newbie that is getting scumread because of it (and hence town because only newbie town is superficially scummy, newbie scum somehow is not) townie?

This ^

And yes, I did read Post 965! I want an actual answer.

[Ircher]

also cytheflyguy was never really that scummy i was cringing super hard when everyone started wagoning him

who were you cringing at specifically?

for science.

the part where people voted him and said his posts were scummy

His posts were scummy. It wasn't til I looked at the join date before my read began to weaken there.

The posts were literally filler and jumping on the most convenient wagon (myself at the time).

[Ircher]

ok i made it to page 33 and now im lazy

VOTE: Ircher

At least give an explanation why you voted Ircher.
Elaborate on your read list, you just categorized players into alignments without an actual analysis, even one-liners are enough.

because he's scummy.

the first 10 pages basically just screamed to me "scum that's really frustrated because they feel they're getting caught for the wrong reasons"

then he kinda chilled and i was OK with him

then he started doing this ridiculous "points" system thing with ISOs and they're about as real as a 3 dollar bill.

And the pounts system has scum motivation because?

Sure, you could argue its an attempt to avoid analyzing, but does that really seem like the most plausible explanation?

[Ircher]

re: shotty suspecting me: no surprise there. how about you read past RVS though, you'll see i'm town pretty easily.

I agree that there's some suspicious stuff there, and particularly early. Plus, he has a different tone from our last game in which he was town. He's more measured in this game. But reviewing his ISO overall, I think it looks town. He's looking at different people, and generally the correct people. When challenged, he explains, but doesn't get defensive.

thanks for your vote of confidence. last game i was detached, busy, and didn't care too much about shit. this game i do.

I will be glad if Shotty stops reading into RVS so much and ignoring everything else.

[Ircher]

@Nahdia - 999

I absolutely can be. I'm working on it. I think you're wrong on Magna, but I'm not going to interfere with your process since it needs to happen, unless you ask.

It just breaks my heart when I see my townreads not coalescing on scum wagons...

Stop the AtE. I'm sure you are one of the ones who can fake it super well.

[Ircher]

Magna, what do you think of Nahdia?

I think the most polite way I can respond is to say "Not much really".

She basically posted a bunch of "Hey, here are my Ranger-lite style lists" without anything of real substance. Some of her reads I agree with. Some I think are dead wrong. But I find it hard to make much of an assessment when her response to someone asking for some depth to her reasoning is more or less "I don't have to and if you keep it up Imma gonna fight you IRL".

Plus I have like .75 games worth of experience with her that left me with little in the way of impression.

Is there some sort of rubrick key for her I should know about?

I guess meta her?

I'm not sure if its alignment indicative, but the refusal makes me lean scum.

[Ircher]

depth is for lamers

Depth is how you solve games. Lack of depth is how you get instalynched when you don't think things through completely.

[Ircher]

lamers and tryhards

hi manga how r u man titus is trying to set us up i think

Fine.

Now I'm guessing you are a fine young person with your own wild ideas and dreams and safe-spaces and so such. But I spend most of my patience dealing with my own daughter on the finer points of why language and communication is important tools and don't have any to spare here in Mafia-land

ok manga do u want the cold harsh truth as to why i am scumreading u?

Not really. I’m not interested in debating you on the finer points of your read which I know from my own perspective is wrong. That’s not useful as it isn’t going to sway you just as much as you aren’t going to convince me I’m scum.

My question to you is – why out of your stated scum-reads did you vote Copper who has by my last recollection exactly zero wagon? Is it you are most passionate about him as scum? Being pragmatic Ircher would be the obvious choice if you want your vote to be more impactful at this point even if I think you are wrong about him.

Hahahaha ok this was p funny.

I initially voted Ircher out of my scumreads because a wagon existed. But copper is way scummier so yah

Your play is stupid.

[Ircher]

also cytheflyguy was never really that scummy i was cringing super hard when everyone started wagoning him

who were you cringing at specifically?

for science.

the part where people voted him and said his posts were scummy

His posts were scummy. It wasn't til I looked at the join date before my read began to weaken there.

The posts were literally filler and jumping on the most convenient wagon (myself at the time).

well considering you are in fact very scummy, I likely would have done the exact same thing.

Go read his posts and tell me you think that wasn't a lazy, convenient vote.

[Ircher]

Shotty, why are you stuck on your tunnel?

[Ircher]

Ok, gonna try to do a readlist soon.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Reads

Confirmed Town

(From my perspective) (98%-100% Confidence)
Ircher  (100%) - Role PM

Likely Town

(85%-97% Confidence)
ETL (85%) - Entrance really looked good. Fight with Titus in middle of thread read primarily as NAI, but I would hazard a guess that both are town. She's kinda slipping a bit (if ya know what I mean), but I'm still pretty confident this slot is town. The recent switch to scum Titus and Ircher does read off to me thpugh.
Xp (88%) - His line of questioning seems to be legit. I haven't seen anything on first glance that looks bad to me.
Persivul (90%) - I've liked the slot's content so far. His attack on me for the points thing actually reads as genuine as he gave a legitimate reason why to scumread it. (Whereas a lot of people just scumread it cuz they be hatin') So, yeah, town here.

Leaning Town

(60%-84% Confidence)
Zakk (80%) - I somewhat disliked his intital attack on me, but on reconsideration, I think he was being genuine. I also think he was trying to overexaggerate what Shotty was already doing. Now that we are pretty far in, I think I'm comfortable with a strong town lean here now.
Project (70%) - He's given a very good impression when he does popup.
Brawl (65%) - Somewhat of a gutread. The motivation in his posts reads as townie and genuine. Haven't necessarily seen something that I intensely disliked.
Magna (75%) - His thoughts seem coherent and rational. I like the analysis he's doing. Overall, town vibes here.
Heur (60%) - Post 401 reads as a newbie tell. 406 also lovoks good. I'm seeing this slot as pretty town with a hint of newness to it.

Null

(0% - 30% Confidence; No/Very Weak Read)
Kill (+10%) - This slot has not contributed much and wants to get townread. The few things he has contributed has, at first glance, looked ok to me, but I really don't have much of an opinion here.
Nahdia (-25%) - The fact the replacee did absolutely nothing is why this null. Otherwise, the slot was looking good to start with, but then when questioned, Nahdia decided that it was better to be stubborn. Not a good first impression.
Nos (0%) - Barely even know they are here. No opinion.
Lowell (0%) - Also barely know they are here. No opinion.
I am Innocent (0%) - Anpther super lurktastic lynch. No opinion.

Neutral

(31%-59% Confidence; Mixed Read)
Titus (+55%) - I'm rather mixed on this slot. I really want to say she's town, but there are some things that other people have pointed out that kinda bug me. I'd rather err on the side of caution here.
Anen (-31%) - Really not sure here. Cannot tell if reads are just "fluffy" or if he is being genuine. This is definitely a biased view from how easily he fooled me in that Newbie game.
Seth (-45%) - His posts have been rather ambiguous and his word choice has been strange. It's like he's trying to hide something from us. Nonetheless, careless town can also mix up the word choice, and despite the confusing word choice, I want to reserve further judgement.
Copper (-55%) - The RVS hypocrisy imo is the biggest complaint I have here. And yes, that does count a lot to me. Otherwise, I've had rather mixed feelings here and am more inclined to think that the slot is scum.
Egg (-50%) - Haven't really like this slot's content, but this may be conf bias and OMGUS, so I'll give the benefit of the doubt.

Leaning Scum

(60%-75% Confidence)
Cythefly (-70%) - Has been completely useless this entire game. All his posts have been filler and/or prod dodges, and he decides to jump on the most convenient wagon at the time while never specifying why. The only thing that's making me reconsider is the join date.

Likely Scum

(76%-100% Confidence)
Shotty (-85%) - Possibly confirmation bias, but I don't think much of his logic has made any sense at all this game. His perpetual tunnel on me does not seem town-motivated, as the reasons he continues to scumread me for seem very nitpickey and cherry-picked. His intital Titus/Ircher association and now Zakk/Ircher association also make little sense. Finally, his play is extremely hypocritical, as he points out flaws in other players' play, yet doesn't acknowledge them himself.

Done

[Ircher]

???

Gut says town, but I don't think I can trust such a gutread. You have some good content, but you also seem to occassionally ignore what others say. So, I'm gonna err on the side of caution for you, cuz I know I shouldn't necessarily blindly trust you.

[Ircher]

Imagine that I'm scum to Ircher and his scum buddy is just in the range of town, but not too town. Seriously can we lynch him.

It's stuff like this why I am scumreading you so much.

What's wrong with a mixed read? Nothing.
Why does the fact that I sorta "buddied" Titus earlier make it so much more a scumread? It does a little, but isn't a valid lynching point barring other, more compelling evidence.

I'll reconsider my read on you when you stop deathtunneling me.

[Ircher]

You had to write the same thing thrice because? If you wanna argue over null stuff and semantics, go right ahead, but OMGUS or not OMGUS, your deathtunnel has very little backing.

[Ircher]

No, I said I do it if you stop being unreasonable.

DIE SCUM!!!

[Ircher]

It is when you are being super nitpickey about my posts.

[Ircher]

Whoever said that Ircher is town for not crumbling under the pressure didn't bother to check how he plays as scum or had a vested interest in town-reading that slot (can't scroll back easily on the phone).

Mini 1793 just finished. I was scum there.

[Ircher]

I dont think jfs an accurate reflectuon of what I could do as scum tho; it went downhill extremely fast.

[Ircher]

some people put themselves in readlists. it's dumb and silly but it's usually just related to the player, not their alignment. i've seen Ircher make that same style readslist as town.

some people put themselves in readlists. it's dumb and silly but it's usually just related to the player, not their alignment. i've seen Ircher make that same style readslist as town.

Noted.

The main point against Ircher this game is that everything is about him, all of his reads can be directly tracked back to how the other player feels about him, it feels off.

Umm.... Idid this in my first game here too.... Why is this such a revelation?

[Ircher]

r u for real lol

more votes on aneninen please.

U can stop.

[Ircher]

Ah shoot! I wont be around when the deadline ends......

[Ircher]

no no, this guy is like bleeding scum out of every orifice. he needs to be voted. please.

.... You're being incoherent this game....

[Ircher]

some people put themselves in readlists. it's dumb and silly but it's usually just related to the player, not their alignment. i've seen Ircher make that same style readslist as town.

Noted.

The main point against Ircher this game is that everything is about him, all of his reads can be directly tracked back to how the other player feels about him, it feels off.

Read my other games. Again, not realky new.

[Ircher]

... Ok, so this is an OMGUS crusade....

I dont disageee wuth Anen's conckusions. Even if I did, that wouldnt necessarily mean its scimmy.

[Ircher]

Have you seen Shotty vs. Me? That's what you are doing: Nahdia vs. Anen.

It benefits no one. While you are entitled to your opinion, pls be open to criticism and change.

[Ircher]

Exaggeration != scum.

[Ircher]

hey now. hey now. u can carry on about ur business, i won't strongarm nobody.

but im not unvoting this clown.

You see that V/LA list. It's mostly vocal town. We can't afford the whole tunnel shit right now. We need to all get going in the same direction.

Speaking of whivh, my V/LA ends right after deadline...

@Mod Can we get a 27 hr extension for the above reason?

[Ircher]

I'm having a hard time to see scum motivation there.

I will definitely relook there before I go V/LA, but I dont see a good reason for me to join yet.

[Ircher]

Alright.

[Ircher]

@Ircher
Fair enough, I'll refresh my memory about our game together but once again what "hypocrisy" are you talking about?

I meant about when you never moved your vote in RVS despite townreading me; I already heard your defense, and while it's a fair defense, I'm still factoring that in.

[Ircher]

Basically, it boils down to interpretation. I really feel like he believes genuinely in what he says.

[Ircher]

I could've just said nothing and been able to jump on them if I wanted to. I did want to potentially vote either of them down the line. I thought it read like SvS. I still think it reads like SvS. No shit I'm going to want to vote people I think could be Scum.

I've lost the thread. What felt like Scum-vs-Scum?

The initial stats discussion between Ircher and Shotty. It felt like artificial, forced conflict rather than genuine. Their interactions still feel off to me.

I am just going to be on the biggest of TBG Copper and Shotty. I like all three wagons. Normally that doesn't happen.

I dislike this a lot. Reads as Scum who wants to avoid spearheading one particular lynch to me. The townie version of this post is like "I'll support XXX, YYY, and ZZZ wagons. I think YYY wagon is the best right now though".

Are you hoping that a Titus-wagon will suddenly gain momentum?

Not particularly, no. I scumread him but he's not in my top 3, as you can see in the reads list I posted. Additionally, a lot of my read on him is relative to Ircher/Shotty. Scumflips from either of them would make me more sure on Titus, and less if they're Town. I'd rather see them die first - they're scummy on their own and help me read Titus.

I could've just said nothing and been able to jump on them if I wanted to. I did want to potentially vote either of them down the line. I thought it read like SvS. I still think it reads like SvS. No shit I'm going to want to vote people I think could be Scum.

Didn’t you just knock Titus in 516 as scummy for leaving her options open to jump to different lynches? Because I read this response as being exactly what you are damning Titus for.

Why do you think the early exchange is Scum versus scum? Please elaborate.

No, you misunderstand me. I don't think it's scummy to say "here are the three lynches I support". I think it's scummy to say "here are the three lynches I support, I'll be on whatever's biggest" rather than "here are the three lynches I support, and I currently prefer _____ Lynch". The former says to me that you don't have any actual scumreads, because if you did, one would naturally be the most appealing for some reason.

The whole "you're dead" thing and the stats discussion coming off each other are both pretty dumb, and the stats discussion comes from nowhere. It reads to me like they wanted to distance early D1, and after the daykill thing started to lose steam they had to come up with something else, and that spawned the stats argument. Go read the first 5 pages and tell me that Ircher/Shotty don't fit the description of two scum who decided on a hard distance gambit.

Also, I doubt scum-Ircher would go on with those hard-to read ISOs after the general dislike he got from almost everyone because of them.

What do you all think of this?

I disagree. I think if he had stopped after we said it wasn't going to give him townpoints, it would have been a clear indication he was only doing it for townpoints.

Like this post. Brawl seems to be able to defend himself well, and the reads he has aren't really far-fetched imo. When I factor in the possibility for biased opinions, his posts seem fine.

[Ircher]

Between Magna and you, and my V/LA, I guess I could compromise there.

VOTE: Brawl

[Ircher]

@Egg, Given how I feel about Zakk, I have little desire to lynch ETL either.

As for TBG, his posts are all hollow and ignore things he should be thinking about. ETL was right. His start was all gut. He technically starts to provide reasons later but they aren't fleshed out or followed up on. His reads make zero sense whatsoever in his readwall. He was vote parked on Ircher for quite awhile. He moved to HA at the same time as the pressure and doesn't discuss his own wagon.

Right now, I want a scum lynch but I feel mostly only scum are posting.

I moved to HA with the pressure because there was a good case on him posted, which prompted me to ISO him and see that his ISO was shit. I don't go around randomly ISOing low-content players usually. Voting someone because a case was posted on them is pretty standard.

Why the hell would I comment on my own wagon? FMPoV, it's a wagon on town. I'd rather discuss wagons on potential Scum. If I get you off of me, but you just ML someone else, I don't gain anything.

Reads updates:
Nahdia's first posts were really good, but the whole trying to be cute and lack of any explanation on the switch to copper has me confused - lean town
The points made against KTS are valid and I don't read his tone the same as I used to. He reads to me as intentionally obstinate as a meta-gambit which is inherently null. (also AntiTown, but null)
No update on Heur. His posts since my vote don't have anything substantial in them to sway me one way or the other.

These look fabricated as hell –

No reason to say Nahdia’s posts were really good. Sorry, there isn’t. They are at best contentless lists with no way to discern the whys and wherefores of the read. There hasn’t been a bit of explanation in any of her posts so why only the move to Copper confused him puzzles the heck out of me.

The Kill read his is a complete no-read. He acknowledges that the thinks points made against kill are valid (and solidifies his Town read on Expedience for pushing Kill) but says that kill’s playstyle is aggressively null. If the points that kill as scum are good why is he landing on null for the Kill read. Or more precisely – why voice it at all when it is just a no-conclusion?

He’s voting Heur so how are Heur’s posts not “swaying him”? He’s already gotten a scum read as evidenced by his vote. If Heurs’ posts were not Town convincing he logically should have said something like “Heur continues to post nothing Town oriented at all so my scum read is well placed”. But instead he posts this which reads as “I’m not updating my read so I am waiting to be swayed by Heur to either Town or Scum”

I voiced my read on Kill because I had a prior Town read on him based on tone. Going from Town to Null is an important shift. The points were enough to shift me from a town read to a null read. Kill is intentionally playing hard to read, which is shitty, but as long as he's doing that I'll probably have him at solid null.

Huer's recent posts were all null. Hence, nothing in them swayed me from liking my huer vote. It is a no update in my read. I don't know why you seem to think I'm waiting to be swayed to town or scum on him - I'm pretty clearly reading him scum. I was waiting to be swayed from "likely scum" to "def scum" or "null". He's got jack all for content, so as much as I think what he has is shit and pretty scummy, my read on him is still very malleable due to the amount of content it's based on.

This post also feels genuine to me fyi.

[Ircher]

@Titus
Maybe the problem lies in the fact I often don't fact-check posts. What I read, I generally try to take at face value.

Pedit: Suits me Shotty. I got a 5 day V/LA coming up; I cant just stay on the Shitty wagon when no one's willing to join. There's more than 1 scum fyi.

[Ircher]

What nonsense are you implying now?

[Ircher]

Not even funny at all.

[Ircher]

@Ircher
It's more that you approach the game slightly differently. I don't think it's a problem. I don't get your numbers thing either. Don't suppose that if you don't reach the same conclusion that I do that your process is wrong or flawed. We all have processes that get there different ways. To me, I'm looking to invade a player's headspace and determine

why

they feel that way and display that thinking to the group, so people understand my reads. Some players are legitimately gut players. Some players look to eliminate cognitive biases entirely from their play. It's important more to look into yourself and find your flaws, minimize those and increase your assets.

I know I'm prone to having some amount of buddying. I try to counter that by asking for a lot of criticism, especially if townreading me.

Just take a gander for a second, why did Shotty spam?

Well, he is quite insistent on his tunnel. And, his recent posts lead me to believe his earlier vote change was simply a ploy, as I find it rather strange for one to do 2 180's so quick.

[Ircher]

Anybody who's voting for a 1 man wagon needs to jump off, reread, and pick a wagon

Anybody who's voting TehBrawlGuy is either stupid, scum, or not paying attention

Anybody who's voting ircher, that ship has sailed and it's time for you to stop doggy paddling towards it

In other words

Everyone vote heuristic. I could also do with a wagon swimg onto ETL.

........I could possibly vote Heur as Heur hasn't been extremeky useful, but I feel ETL's engagement with Titus was a frustrated TvT. The Brawl wagon, while I have my doubts, I feel has the best chance if landing on scum out of the viable wagons. If I didn't have V/LA, I'd probably try to get a different wagon to go through.

[Ircher]

And Brawl........

[Ircher]

Ok, but how do you know it isn't simply a townie who expresses caution around someone they think is tricky to read (for meta reasons obviously).

[Ircher]

@ProjectMatt - Why are your reads so bad? HA's wall had reasoning. Why do you think HA's readwall lacks reasoning, but TBG has depth?

TBG handled the pressure on him extremely well? Are we even reading the same thread? 1178 is a pile of hypocritical garbage.

Anen's behavior is fine and I even referenced a game to compare to.

Nahdia read is right for wrong reasons.

@Egg, Talk to me when you are done.

@Ircher, I think Shotty spams back there to drown out the case on TBG.

@Ircher, Come on answer me as to why that post "feels genuine"? Look at the motivations at the time it as posting.

To understand that post, you also have to look back at his vote on HA. As the wagon on him forms, TBG is nowhere to be seen. When he comes back, he sheeps a case saying it is good. (The case isn't good but we'll be giving that the benefit of the doubt for this argument.) He's saying he doesn't go ISOing weaker players. He's framing the argument as unreasonable rather than addressing the concerns. My concern is that his "reads" were not there and made no sense. That's precisely what he voted HA for. Yet, he doesn't actually defend or actually give any sort of read.

He then later OMGUSes Seth for sheeping a case onto his wagon when Seth was wagoned. That's exactly what TBG did. The hypocricsy there isn't genuine at all.

The latter paragraph TBG is deliberately excusing himself from ever reading Kill the story. If I felt a player was obfuscating their read deliberately, my first thought is why.

@Ircher - Let's walk this through Ircher. That post is scum posting. Scum love to hedge and hawww. Second, everyone is biased. We all have cognitive biases. The key to scumhunting from my point of view is finding out if these biases make sense and tracking a train of thought because I don't do as well with emotionally reading players.

Paragraph 1 - "Ircher or Shotty is scum. There's something "weird" between them." He's doubtcasting your slot here while leaving open a bus on Shotty. That's why these dual reads "there's something off here" without doing anything to resolve them are 100% pro scum.
Paragraph 2 - "I don't want to push Titus, but I'd gladly jump on her if she gained momentum." It's consistent. He's practically yelling at us that he'll never make a decision or push anything. He'll just have his "gut" reads and do nothing considering gut can't really be proven false unless just ridiculous to have pairings together.
Paragraph 3 - He's playing semantics here at best, but he's painting attempts at town cohesion scummy but lurking as a protown manuever.
Paragraph 4 - More doubtcasting Ircher and dismissing common sense townpoints as wifom.

If someone tells you at the outset that they have zero desire to push lynches, just sets up categories for save voting, and discourages townreads; quite often, that player is scum.

[Ircher]

Goto the post to see context

[Ircher]

let me be useless a little while longrr

Only if you are super useful D2 and beyond

[Ircher]

@Zakk
The only thing it has going for it is that despite his terrible posting, heur. isn't getting hard wagoned, but that could also be because scum has already committed elsewhere, on Ircher if Titus is on the level and right, on TGB if she is wrong or scum.

I just finished a game with him and my read is he is once again newbie town here.

This ^ is my read on Heur fyi.

[Ircher]

Definitely not a fan of Titus's deadline fearmongering to try and strongarm my wagon. We have over half a week left (4 days + some hours), there's no need to rush to wagon anybody.

4 days is not a lot of time... Especially when you are V/LA and a lot of other people are during that timeframe.

[Ircher]

Ok, so what's happened while I was gone? What's the case for Pers?

[Ircher]

Someone pls explain the Pers wagon. I dont got time to figure it out myself (isnt deadline approaching?)

Pedit: Interesting....

[Ircher]

I have literally no clue what you're saying, and I'm starting to get the impression that you're scum trying for the "There's no way scum would be that obvious and trollish" thing. You're trying to shout at me about content, but you are providing little to none yourself, and are spamming up the thread. If you're town, I'd appreciate you cutting it out, but it comes off as scummy as hell to me. I had you as a townlean, but I'm on a scumlean now having experienced your play in the field rather than observing the past.

I find this to be rather a reasonable conclusion.

@Titus

Bit busy, but gonna catchup when I get the chance.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Pers ISO JUNE 3

1. 1293 - ETL Case -

1/2/3 -- This looks like a valid inconsistency being pointed out. 4 - Wouldn't perhaps consider it a scumtell, but I still see the point as valid and plausible. 5/6-- Bit of a rehash, but ok. The post is decent, but it seems somewhat nitpickey as it focuses on 1 or 2 contradictiobs without looking at the big picture. -

Null-Town (+1)

2. 1294 - Don't lynch Titus but Cop her -

Not a bad line of play tbh. The post is null in and out of itself though. -

Null (0)

3. 1529 - More flailing and AtE -

The last 10 or so posts look almost entirely useless and super defensive. Really poor impression on what was looking to be a possible town read. -

Scum (-3)

4. 1809 -

One great possibility is bussing, though I'm still leaning towards the town side with Titus. Still, more flailing and AtE. Too bad its so hard to tell if genuine...... -

Scummish (-2)

[/i

Total Score: -4 points
Average Score: -1.0 (-4 / 4)
Final Score: -0.5 (In range of -6 to 6; includes bias score of +0.5)

Meh, I think this is probably the better lynch out of the neighborhood though. Liger looks ok, Magna I townread, and Copper.... Well, I'm not seeing it right now.

Percival, claim

[Ircher]

VOTE: Pers

L-1

Dont think the others are more likely scum, and quite frankly, you are getting super defensive and "It's not me!"; finally, deadline is rapidly approaching.

[Ircher]

why? I'm town though

Prove it, pls & ty.

[Ircher]

Well now that the VC has outed that, what was your aim with the fake hammer?

Duh! She was reaction-testing.

[Ircher]

Investigations should be on the people who would reveal the most if their alignment is known.

No, investigations should be on people who could do most damage as scum and who are best able to appear townie as scum. That's experienced people. Newbies can be sorted later.

Vets are most likely to die. It runs the risk of "I checked the dead guy". If a vet is checked, it needs to tell about the game.

Even the most stalwart of vets has lost as scum and has weaknesses.

So, you'd be the best Investigation cuz of your leadership role. It's imo a worthwhile risk.

[Ircher]

VOTE: tbg
Better than pers, again pers is obv town. Btw reactions like what I've just seen from pers was what I was trying to get with my vote. We don't have much time left.

Are you honestly just trying to no lynch?

[Ircher]

Just kynch Pers already. All he's doing now is flailing and we dont got time for shenanigans.

If we no lynch, we lynch in the pool of the players off the wagon tomorrow.

[Ircher]

Whoever jumped on cy get back on pers, this is ridiculous

Obv there is opposition to his wagon

Pretty sure the jumpers all went to KTS

Yeah, as antitown as KTS is being, we don't need a KTS lynch.

[Ircher]

ETL, HAMMER

[Ircher]

thinking ircher's anxious twitching here is pretty scummy tbh.

Why do we need to drag things put? What more is to be discussed? Dragging things put for no reason is rather pointless and aggravates everyone.

[Ircher]

What is there to gain from a KTS lynch? KTS will likely take care of himself in time; why waste a lynch there if it can be avoided?

[Ircher]

What I mean is that KTS is being super useless, and even if he flips scum, we get no associatives from him. We'd get more regardless of alignment from Pers. Not to mention, if a vig exists, they should vig KTS without a doubt. Finally, it's gonna be hard to switch all these voters before deadline. If we had more time, I'd take a different stance, but we don't.

[Ircher]

no. I'd prefer cy or ircher. kts is a better vig target. that's what vig is for. too often people think they know better when they get the role instead of taking out the garbage.

I like how you guys keep flopping back and forth on your reads on me. One instance, I'm newbietown. The next instant, I'm conf!scum, and so on.

[Ircher]

Nonsense. A KTS wagon has a lot to analyze. If he flips scum we can look at who was reticent to join, and if he's town we can take a look at who pushed it.

But, the same can be said for just about any wagon. Content-wise, KTS has done nothing. I'd support a PL except I'd think it be a waste right now.

[Ircher]

Pers has been fairly active too. And not really, more like prodging and engaging in petty arguments with other players that don't tell anything.

[Ircher]

So, in other words, we should lynch Pers unless someone has a much better, non-VI/PL target for D1.

[Ircher]

A vig, and multiball.....

I'll catch up at home.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Shotty

[Ircher]

Even I have minor reservations on the Persivul wagon, but there's no way I am going for KTS. This is the wierdest collective response to a fake hammer in my recollection.

VC please

ETL, the reads you wanted to give please?

ok I've got shaziro, you, nahdia, liger, magna as town Zakk and pers as maybe town
copper maybe scum. shotty is ??? maybe scum? cy maybe scum less nulls than before but still more than I'd like atm. hang on. need to look at my list. (I'm mobile)

egg maybe scum. HA scum. expedience town. ircher kop are both still unknown. ircher because I don't know what I'm seeing in his ISO. prob lean more town on him than kop. I think Lowell might be town and tbg is null for the same reason ircher is. I can't make up my mind tbere. stuck.

Not sure if anybody else noticed, but since I replaced HA, ETL's reads there were kinda wonky. HA was scum, but I was town...I don't think that's how replacing in works. And it's not a matter of her thoughts changing over a bit of time...because it was literally two posts later, the one in between just being me pointing out that the "That's definitely VI, don't worry about it" reasoning got my town the loss in my last game. I can't tell if this was her not paying attention to the game or what.

It doesn't seem unreasonable. The reverse might be, but it is quite normal for replacements to seem a lot townier than their replacees cuz they are a lot more engaged and focused on the game. Aka, they work harder.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Shotty

seriously why?

Also I'm beginning to think this might be a long con after all, and that we're watching the most sustained double-bussing ever.

It's possible, but it would be hard to make it look authentic.

[Ircher]

Also lol at the lazy votes on me

Shotty should be on Titus based on pers flip which makes me think they're scum together kinda, or possibly scum of differing faction bantering to seem less dangerous to each other and avoid NKs in the future

In fact even though after 3 deaths I expect everyone to be playing more survivalistic right now, Titus not changing her reads AND adopting a more friendly tone with people is scum

Vote: titus

Also

...Srsly! Do explain further how such is indicative of scum. (You have guven the evidence/reasoning, but I want the theory-related side that makes such actions a scumtell).

VOTE: Titus

Am I the only person that finds it sus that she has taken a leadership position in this game and with three dead people, she's not one of them?

Well, KTS was likely a vig shot. Killing ETL makes sense as scum cuz ETL is prob. a skilled player. While we had the Brawl wagon yesterday, killing Brawl makes sense if Titus is scum or someone is trying to frame Titus. It's definitely not an awful choice for an SK to choose. Titus, while a leader, is probably a bit off on reads & if Titus is town, makes a good lynch target for today.

So, no, I don't find it weird that Titus wasn't killed.

[Ircher]

I mean, it's pretty much a null point because we know ETL was town, but it still makes me feel like the read on my slot has gone without much thought, as nobody else pointed it out. I just noticed it because of Nahdia's quoting. Don't scum typically want the newbies to make it to endgame?

What do ypu mean, scum? ETL was town, so I don't get what you're saying.

It's like this: What's the probability that ETL as scum in this game would blah blah blah GIVEN the fact ETL flipped town in this game?

It makes no sense and has 0% chance of being true.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Shaziro

Previous question that I asked him about sounds more like noise than anything.

[Ircher]

Firstly, before catching-up.

I know it's my fault that I hadn't mentioned it before it happened, but we shouldn't ever have lynched Persivul. It should have been a red flag that there had been NO real counter at all. In short, we had a lynch which gave us no VCA-information at all. Scums may or may not have been on the wagon and because of the flip noone stands out as a possibility at all. And I, personally, had never seen that horribly-strong Persivul case.
I know that I'm terrible now. If I had had more time, I would have pointed this out in time.

What's no counter got to do with anything? Besides, there were counters throughout the day. In particular, Kill and Brawl, both of whom were town. Finally, the wagon flipped town so this post seems ex post facto rather than genuine.

[Ircher]

That seemed more like a reaction test to me. Interesting.

Why did it seem like a reaction test to you?

It looked like one to me too.

It's the way you worded it, asking for how people would react if you dix xxxx.

[Ircher]

VOTE: shotty

If and when shotty flips scum, we can lynch his partner, zakk.

This is really dumb. Titus explained why. This is zakk-diversion masked as "oh I totally agree with you on zakk"

@shaz, eh I've seen shotty so much worse. Other than the lingering thought that maybe we're being played with the whole shotty/irch double-tunneling thing, I don't really see too much scum here lately.

Yeah, good point. Just noticed how weirdly it phrased,

[Ircher]

Seems like you got nervous about bussing him.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Also I love that when zakk's wagon got some legs, you switched off. Seems like you got nervous about bussing him.

I'VE BEEN TRYING TO LYNC HIM FOR 100 DAMN PAGES

If that was your goal, why jump of when it gets going?

because I've been trying to lynch you for 100 pages too! You should have been hung yesterday and zakk today, but no. No one listens to shotty and now 4 town are dead,

But, why can'r you lynch Zakk first considering the wagon has traction? I am strongky considering a Shotty wagon instead right now.

VOTE: Zakk

[Ircher]

Vote Tally Table

	Anen	Cythefly	Egg	Expe	Ircher	Kop	Liger	Lowell	Magna	Nahdia	Nos	PMatt	Shaz	Shotty	Titus	Zakk
1	Kop	Ircher	Ircher	Copper	Shaz	Copper	Zakk	Zakk	Liger	Ircher	Copper	TBG	Magna	Magna	Copper	Ircher
2	TGB	Titus	Kop	KTS	Shotty	Cythefly	Persi	TBG	TBG	Copper	Kop	Cythefly	Cythefly	Ircher	Shotty	Ircher
3	Nos	TGB	KTS	Kop	Copper	KTS	No Vote	Magna	KTS	Anen	-	Kop	Persi	Titus	Cythefly	Cythefly
4	-	Persi	-	Persi	Kop	Shotty	-	Shaz	TBG	Persi	-	Anen	Persi	Ircher	TBG	ETL
5	-	Titus	-	Nahdia	Nos	-	-	Anen	Persi	Copper	-	Persi	Nos	Titus	Persi	Titus
6	-	-	-	Persi	Cythefly	-	-	Persi	-	Anen	-	Anen	Zakk	Ircher	Persi	Persi
7	-	-	-	-	TBG	-	-	Zakk	-	-	-	-	-	Kop	Zakk	KTS
8	-	-	-	-	Persi	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	Egg	-	Persi
9	-	-	-	-	Shotty	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	Zack	-	Titus
10	-	-	-	-	Shaz	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	Pers	-	Lowell
11	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	TBG	-	Titus
12	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	KTS	-	-
13	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	Titus	-	-
14	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	Zakk	-	-
15	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	Titus	-	-

Can you break it up into two different tables? Mobile players cant read all of it.

[Ircher]

What the votes say, assuming Titus is having a bad game and being used as a battering ram to take the heat, by scum:

Anen: town getting pushed by scum.

Cythefly: bad town being spoon-fed by scum and lapping it up, or scum being very brazen under the cover of being a newbie.

Egg: see previous post, likely scum. @Titus why no early scumread on Egg?

Expe: Town not having a fun time.

Ircher: omgus or vote on the biggest wagons is the pattern that emerges here, this is such a terrible pattern you should be ashamed if you are town, and in this world you are.

Liger: town newbie.

Magna: follows Titus on Copper (whitout a vote) under the cover of clearing his PT, but then doesn't have anything to ask in said PT, follows Titus (and PM) on TBG, which is consistent with the initial hypothesis, the votes are both bad and very opportunistic.

Nahdia: Scum with Nos PM and Magna, taking advantage of Titus whom she pockets early with a town-lean. Particularly worrisome are her discarding her early Magna read for no reason (finished distancing) when Titus asked her for further names, her coordination with Nosferatu (push on me, push on Anen, Nos was likely positioning herself to go on Ircher with Nahdia as well with that stats post) and her read switch on Anen (PM also switches and the reason he gives is pretty weak, he liked a lot of Anen's early posting but now he looks weaker).

Nos: see pre-post read.

PMatt: Other than what mentioned with other players, very early town read on both Titus and Ircher (consistent with the scum strategy hypothesized here).

Shaz: new-town doing his own thing.

Shotty: In this world he is more likely duped town than scum, the emphasis on wanting to lynch Ircher/Titus with a vengeance while compromising if the game state requires it makes his reads likely genuine (and crap).

Titus: town by definition in this world.

Zakk: Like shotty his reads in this world are garbage but genuine in the way he is pushing, he also has solo votes on slots that nobody is even looking at and where is the support from his supposed teammates in that or why is he picking fights with lowell and ETL when he already is against Titus & co, more so than Shotty this here is misguided town.

Shotty's reads on me and Titus do not feel at all genuine.

Shotty literallly tries to find anything to throw dirt or shade at us, yet you find that genuine?

[Ircher]

Also yes shotty I accept your offer

Vote: Titus

"Hey, at least she's better than trump"

I'm getting v tired of this game
V annoyed at 4 deaths and no scum flips

What were you expecting? For scum to kill themselves?

The chances of scum lynch Dq is low as is the crosss-kill chance N1. And, KTS was prob. vigged and the scum chance there was also fairly low.

[Ircher]

That's a logical fallancy; it's why stuff like bussing works.

As to your Q --> Maybe not the best move, but still one that I could see scum to attempt. At this point, Shotty prob. doesn't want to be accused of backtracking, so that's why Shotty continues to be so focused on tunneling me.

[Ircher]

Fair enough.

[Ircher]

@Zakk
The Q was rhetorical in nature, and why do you imply that there are two town vigs in this game?

[Ircher]

@Zakk
You're suggesting multiball with 2 town vigs?

Say what you mean rather than being ambiguous and contradictory.

[Ircher]

i was saying unless you think (as you appeared to, in #2525) that there's only one scum team, and no serial killer, you must therefore believe town has two separate vigilantes

"I was saying

unless

you thing (...) that there's only

one

scum team, and

no

serial killer, you

must therefore believe town has

two separate

vigilantes"

It makes zero sense. First of all, I'm assuming multiball. I never said I wasn't. Second of all, if I thought there was only one faction kill (Mafia, no Werewolfs or SK), then it would be reasonable to expect two town vigs to account for the kills. The keyword here however is UNLESS : He says that assuming two town vigs is normal if the game does have multiple kill sources.

So, @Shotty - Don't be telling me I'm not reading; his word choice is way off, super ambiguous, and makes the entire statement illogical. 3 NK's does not mean 2 Vigs, Mafia, and Were/SK kill. Cuz, 1+1+1+1=4.

[Ircher]

My point is why is he taking the time to defend you as well? He is trying to protect you.

Hi, I'm catching up right now. When I saw you do the "US? Who is your partner?" thing, I thought you were making a joke about the idea that you're grasping at straws. This is you saying it wasn't a joke. You just proved Copper's point. If you don't get the rope today, I know you should get it tomorrow.

No, he proved my point. Copper reads such interactions as genuine.

[Ircher]

@Anen
Is Project the only person you really want to lynch atm?

[Ircher]

Ok, doe, as of NOW I am going to try to take this game seriously lol.

I only have one real reason why I'm voting Titus, but I feel it's an important one: She is too much in a leadership position for two people to be killed by non town to kill her.

The only way I can reasonably see that she is town is if someone attacked her, but they were either roleblocked, she had a bulletproof vest on, or the doctor healed her.

Wait-oh.
There were THREE Nightkills. More than enough for a Night.
The bolded part suggests that you actually

know

about a fourth Nightkill which went to Titus and it's missing now.
WTF?!

You're misinterpreting what I was saying lmao. I said

if

. Like, how can she be a powerful town player and someone not try to kill her? That just doesn't seem right imo.

That sort of night analysis, esp. if Titus is off in her reads, is stupid.

Just cuz you're leading the tiwn does not mean you are always right, and simetimes scum keep a town leader alive for that reason. I also don't get the 4 kill assumption either.

[Ircher]

Seth's ISO (part of Kop's ) is really bugging me right now.

I'd also prob. be able to see that I see a pretty strong association between him and Copper.....

[Ircher]

The beginning.

[Ircher]

I'll have to look further too, but there are so many off things in his ISO.... (And I meant the beginning if Seth's ISO)

I suggest everyone rereads those two guys ISOs.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Seth and Kop ISO - DAY 2 - JUNE 12

1. 174 - "If I am scum that would be a serious problem, accidentaly lynching your own teammates or the sk, effectively reducing the kills per night in a large game will lead to your demise" -

No matter how many times we talk about it, it is a very weird statement to make that seems like a scumclaim by itself. Looking at the context, it seems to be in reference to Copper's 172: "My my, AtE for the rest of town to quick lynch me and possibly an attempt to tilt me in the same sentence? How evil. If you are scum you will also laugh hard no? I can see why that would be funny." which references Seth's 170 - "RVS is fair and just, because we will laugh hard if you flip scum.". Looking at those quotes, I don't see what prompted Seth to imply or even put up the if statement about Seth being scum; in fact, the entire thing seems worded in a way so as to appear like an accidental towntell. The post just seems unprompted and seems to serve only to garner towncred by appearing to be a towntell. -

Very Scummy (-4)

2. 178 - "Don't take it seriously Copper, I'm not like those idiots that chase at you with ropes for hanging just because you're Copper. This is getting too stupid, why can't we just get along, the adventure haven't started yet and we are already quarreling and sending death threats just because, all that preparations for nothing." -

If 170 was an RVS vote on Copper, then what does Copper say in 172 that makes Seth change his mind so quick? It must be related to the joke, but I get the feeling that Seth for some reason took 172 as serious where as I saw it as a continuation of the joke. Possibly, it could be in response to Copper's OMGUS in 177, but I don't see any town reasoning for just backing out of an OMGUS like that. Tbh, the whole Seth-Copper Interactions here feel like SvS and distancing of some sort. -

Scum (-3)

3. 182 - "I can't make my play based on what I honestly think, especially in a large game, you can say that "A" must be hanged because of "B" but the majority factor that influences the Day 1 lynching is luck, scumreads may not work all the time as everyone has different playstyles and personalities which makes it impossible to be always right with a scumread, the only thing we can do right now is to maximize that chances of flipping scum, I'm not confident yet in my reads to do that, it's all up to you my fellow town on this day and I will post my thoughts sometimes." -

Ugh... Another weird-sounding post that again really feels out of place. It's in response to 181 which states, "Alternatively you can tell me which one, if any, of {Robert, I am Innocent, Magma} is also scum.". Copper's question is really off (I'm pretty sure none of those people posted yet, or if they did, only one post which really doesn't say much), but so is Seth's response. Why does Seth need to type such a complex and confusing response when he could just state he's not sure at this point or something like that... Just doesn't make sense to me honestly and I feel the scum motives are more likely than town vibes (not to mention some big Seth/Copper association tells) -

Scum (-3)

4. 183 - "Copper said I will laugh hard as scum if I flip scum in my lynch, which is a contradiction, since lynching sk as a mafia goon early in this game is serious trouble as there will be less kills per night, giving the Town more time to correctly lynch the mafia." -

I find so many things wrong here. First, Seth is stating that Copper is a goon yet unvoted Copper like 5 or so posts ago. Second, Seth is assuming {Copper is assuming Seth is an SK} -- Where did you get that assumption? Why can't Copper think you're main-faction scum? Also, why do you assume SK over other scum faction? Too many bad assumptions being made here. -

Scummy (-2)

5. 646 - "I said lynching sk as a mafia goon, not me lynching sk as a mafia goon, I did not mention who is the mafia goon, therefore it couldn't be anyone in this game." -

Yes, you did implicitly say who was the goon: Since you were talking to Copper, it can be implied you were refering to Copper was the goon and you yourself was claiming SK. I looked at your join date and I find it hard to believe either 1) You're an alt of a person who's normally extremely confusing or 2) You're new to the site yet for some reason, get along EXTREMELY well with Copper. You two get along better than just banter, you two look like teammates. Getting back on-topic, your statement is more backtracking than anything; maybe you truly did think you weren't refering to anyone specific, but don't be trying to turn the tables when someone does make that (reasonable) assumption. -

Scum (-3)

6. 646 - "We should drop the cytheflyguy's wagon, he's a bad lynch, he's obviously new to the game and doesn't know that what's he saying will certainly lead to him being perceived as scummy." -

The way it's worded looks like scum whiteknighting a townie (There aren't enough scum in this game for Cy to be scum rn, you know, PoE) and it's a big distancing attempt from the Cy wagon that started to pick up steam. Seemed a convenient time to jump off the wagon. -

Scum (-3)

7. 649 - "Look at his join date and his posts and you will get the conclusion that he's unfamiliar with forum mafia yet, therefore new." -

Ok I guess, but you avoided the question altogether. Just because a player is new does not mean they cannot be scum, so your argument is invalid. -

Null-Scum (-1)

8. 811 - Votes TBG -

I don't buy the vote's reason (sure, I vote TBG at one point, but whether or not TBG was scum is beyond the point I'm making here) - Your vote occurred while TBG is your counterwagon and your reason sounds more like buzzword soup than anything. If this was coming from a town motive, then I would have likely seen more hesisitance or some form of evidence & not just buzzwords and a convenient jump. This alone perhaps wouldn't be a big deal except you've been flailing all day long and doing stuff that's scum-motivated. -

Null-Scum (-1)

9. 2452 - "If and when shotty flips scum, we can lynch his partner, zakk" -

I'm not impressed. Your last few posts were over why scummy newbies should be investigated rather than scumhunting. Now, this post in particular strikes me as scum - Rather than say "If", you state "If and when" implying you know more about Shotty's alignment than we do. But wait! You throw in Zakk as the partner..... The only thing that makes sense here imo is that you are indeed the SK and Seth accidentally slipped that info. -

Scummy (-2)

10. 2479 - "I am half aware there is a wagon. But right now I just feel that's it's more of a pressure wagon that will probably disintegrate. I however feel shotty Is the best wagon that will paint a picture better than zakk. On the off chance zakk is town then it is obviously pointing harder towards shotty but we can't afford to drop numbers over night." -

Ooh... Totally forgot about that, but Titus brought up a good point in the quoted post. What makes you think Zakk's wagon will disintegrate? How come Shotty is scum regardless? Why and how will Shotty pain a better picture than Zakk? I could perhaps see a Shotty, Kop, Copper team right now. -

Scum (-3)

Seth is attrocious and Kop doesn't look that great.

[Ircher]

Ok, I cpuld do a Kop wagon.

Also a Copper wagon if anyone is up for it.

VOTE: Kop

[Ircher]

@Magna
What's your opinion of Seth/Kop?

[Ircher]

@Magna -- Alright


My top scumreads are Shotty (Prob biased, but quite obvious why), Kop/Seth (I outlined why, and while Seth may have been a troll, Kop wasn't much better, so my read stands), and Copper (I'm inclined to townread Magna, Liger is ok, it would be strange imo if there wasn't a scum in the neighborhood, but that's setup WIFOM, and the "roleplay" between Seth/Copper felt more SvS than anything else -- Too artificial and forced)

I'll compromise lynch Zakk (not my top read, but I'm not impressed there either. I am also tbh influenced by Titus's read here).

[Ircher]

Yes.

[Ircher]

Page 88:
Well I can't ask ETL because she got NK'd, but Shaziro agreed so...
Shaziro, why was Ircher's push for a hammer scummy?

Page 89:
I agree with Brawl in his arguement with Ircher but Brawl is dead town and so are both wagons being discussed so this is useless to me except that Ircher is wrong.

Zakk, why is Shaziro town?

My town read on Expedience has been weakening lately. Not entirely sure why.

Page 90:
2239 by Nos is pretty bad. Not wanting to vote Persivul just because he's gonna be lynched anyway is horribly scummy. I see Copper and Expedience noted this.

Page 91:
Not a fan of Copper egging on Projectmatt to vote Persivul after he (Copper) just jumped off to vote killthestory. Feels like not wanting to be on the mislynch.

Oh look, I made it to Day 2. If I didn't say this already (I think I did), I think the NKs are scum (ETL), a vig, and a SK trying to look like a vig.

Drmy, are you saying Titus is scum for being wrong about the dead people?

Nahdia, why were Brawl and killthestory bad shots if they were vig shots?

Page 92:
Hmm. Acknowledging Copper's reasoning for the killthestory vote. Don't know if I buy it or not. I can see it though.

Page 93:
Ircher, why'd you assume two scum teams and appear to rule out a SK? (Post 2321)

Nahdia's posts toward Titus are very town. I'd expect town to just give five names to attempt to control a strong town player. And if Titus is scum, that would mean the whole thing is BS if Nahdia is also scum anyway and I'm kinda doubting that.

Page 94:
Copper makes good points about Kop. Why soft push Persivul then vote killthestory as town?

Shaziro, I'm guessing ETL just didn't notice that you'd replaced Heur. I don't like you discrediting her reads like that by the way.
^If Shaziro is scum, ETL's reads were probably pretty solid. They probably were anyway though.

I don't understand these Anen votes.

Page 95:
Not sure why zakk thinks everyone will be survivalistic, but that's not necessarily scummy or anything.

Ircher, why is Brawl a good kill for a SK?

Lowell, why don't you think scum used their kills effectively? I also notice you said "kills" rather than "kill"? So you are assuming two teams?

I actually like Shaziro's Nos vote. And I find Lowell's opposition to it interesting. Especially after he adds a null read on Nos.

Zakk, why do you think two teams are "very likely" now? I thought you'd concluded earlier we probably have a SK.

Page 96:
Did I mention I don't understand where scum reads on Anen are coming from?

1) I meant more like "Multi-Scum Kill" which would include an SK possibly
2) Cuz of the wagon. If Brawl was scum, then that's free townie points. Otherwise, SK got rid of someone who might be confirmable later from VCA. Alright, it's an ok kill for scum too, but I'd think that it's a relatively safe kill more likely from an SK.

[Ircher]

That's why I stay away from the "multiball" term. Everyone has their own definition for it.......

True. Srry for that.

@Magna -- Acknowledged

[Ircher]

@Zakk

Get pff the Titus vanity wagon. We're not lynching that slot today. There are several, other better wagons such as Kop to join.

[Ircher]

I could compromise on Kop, considering the wagon looks to be all town. I just think Seth was town.

I think Zakk is still much better though.

Why did you feel Seth was town? I got the exact opposite feel when I looked at the ISO again.

[Ircher]

What about Copper & Zakk? You townread them?

[Ircher]

1) I think Titus is town
2) A good number of people find Titus as town
3) Kop is literally doing nothing right now
4) Both Magna and I have outlined some reasons for thinking Kop is scum
5) A Titus prob. wouldn't get the level of support it needs to pass
6) The Kop wagon is more than viable
7) Have you even looked at Kop's most recent post?

@Zakk ^

[Ircher]

Seth is a troll account. Lightning rod for bullshit but still scumhunting.

Ok.

Kop isn't scumhunting right now though.

[Ircher]

Nos looks fine to me when glancing at it. I'll look there another day.