Open 50: The New C9 - Abandoned!

[JordanA24]

Vig, while it is possible that you killed scum last night, it is usually best that you do NOT kill on Night 0, since, with no discussion beforehand, it is often very likely that you'll hit a protown player, or even worse, a power role, which would make things much more difficult for the town. So whoever you are, I'd reserve your vig kill until you think someone is likely to be scum, since if you hit a townie, it's one less player the scum have to get out of the way before winning.

Anyway, my random vote:

Original Roll String: 1d16

1 16-Sided Dice: (9) = 9

[JordanA24]

Vote: Opposed Force

Mod: Both Samruc and Xdaamno are still listed as being alive

[JordanA24]

On to possible scum hunting...

Vig, while it is possible that you killed scum last night

The vig has a 50/50 chance of either hitting scum or hitting a townie. For all we know, the vig killed the townie and the SK killed the mafia member. In the other "New C9", kill methods were shown. Here, they were not.

I find it incredibly interesting that your opening post contained that line. It's possible, as you say, but no more probable that he was the SK. I find it very curious how the tone of your post makes it seem like you KNEW that the vig killed Mafia.

Vote: Jordan

, our resident Serial Killer.

This would, of course, be the only way that anyone would know that the Vig killed mafia. I get that from the tone of his opening post.

You're quick to jump to conclusions...

I said "while it's possible" which means "there is a chance the vig killed the scum", not "the vig definatly killed the scum".

I'm going to

Unvote Vote: LML

, jumping to conclusions that quickly disturbs me.

[JordanA24]

You're quick to jump to conclusions...

I said "while it's possible" which means "there is a chance the vig killed the scum", not "the vig definatly killed the scum".

I never said that you said anything about "definates."

Instead, I spoke about your TONE. Sometimes, it not what a person says, rather HOW they say it.

I was only telling the vig why he shouldn't kill Night 0, after realising he may have killed scum in this game, and would have picked up the idea that it's a good thing to do in every game, as an IC, I thought it was best to discourage him from doing so using a reasoned argument.

[JordanA24]

I'm all for throwing around serious discussion early game, but saying that you've figured out two singular roles in less than 48 hours is a bit extreme. The chances of you being right about one of us is slim, and even without knowing my role PM I'd still say you have pretty much no chance of being right about both of us.

QFT.

I voted LML because I thought his jumping to immediate conclusions (which he still is doing) was scummy, and I fear he's saw an opportunity to get an early bandwagon on a townie for little reason.

[JordanA24]

*munches popcorn* This is cooking along just fine.

Anything else to add?

Defensiveness =/= Scumtell

Over

defensiveness = Scumtell

Defending yourself obviously isn't a scumtell, otherwise any Mafia game would just go like this:

Player 1: You're scum because <so and so>
Player 2: No I'm not beacause <so and so>
Player 1: Well now I'm more sure you're scum because you're getting defensive.

Obviously, this wouldn't work.

When a player starts getting overdefensive, like snapping, all-caps and getting really defensive for not much of a reason, that's a scumtell.

[JordanA24]

Skitzer, how many games are we in that my alignment is known (ie i'm dead)? Zero. You can't meta me for scum/town if you don't know my alignment.

Yes, but he could have looked back at games you were in which are now finished and noticed this correlation.

[JordanA24]

die scum die.

Why are you so sure that guy's scum?

[JordanA24]

Hey, AlyG...I'm wagoning. For a wagon's sake.

I'll jump off if it comes to -1, -2 definatly.

Hang on, where was this? I can't believe I missed such a scummy post. Oman, what is the point of an early bandwagon if you're just going to hop off at -2/-1? I'm not a fan of early wagons for little reason myself, I think they stunt the flow of the game (hence me being so suspicious of LML) and I prefer to wait for someone to post something properly scummy before we pile in on them. But if you're going to go down the early wagon route, why on Earth unvote as soon as it gets to -2/-1, isn't the whole point of an early wagon to pressure. If you try to dissapate a wagon as soon as the player starts feeling pressures, you're just stunting the flow of the game for no reason.

Unvote Vote: Oman

[JordanA24]

-1 is "pressure" to you?

You're kidding me, right?

In an early bandwagon, yes it is. Only an idiot would put the hammer vote on so early and with such little evidence. So, in an early bandwagon, putting a player at -2/-1 would serve to make the player realise that if they make a couple more bad posts, and create some more evidence against themselves, it becomes more likely that people will start thinking that they are genuinly scummy, and that those players will vote for them. If a player is at -2/-1, it'll take very few players to think and do that, and that person is lynched.

So, in an early wagon like the one against me, -2/-1 is only pressure.

[JordanA24]

Also, Hypocrit Jordanscum just wagoned on me for something "incredibly scummy" that he "missed".

Explain why I am a hypocrit.

And also, isn't the base of the wagon on me being a bit defensive, right Oman? Well, look how defensive you just got.

[JordanA24]

That vote is really bad. There are many people who are more deserving of a vote.

I'd disagree,

FOS:Sammich

, he could have axplained his suspicions better rather than making a sarcastic comment. I get the feeling that he can't really think of anything to back up his FOS, which could indicate he's just throwing mud and hoping it sticks to someone.

Tyler's post afterwards also unsettled me, he could have pressed Sammich to explain his suspicions instead of making a contentless post about it.

I agree with CKD's above comment, LG, please explain your case, otherwise your "sitting on my random vote" easily translates into "I'm not lurking, I'm voting someone, don't mind me." Why is SSF a better place to put your vote than Oman?

Mod

: Can we have a Vote Count please?

[JordanA24]

Unvote; Vote: Sammich

I'd appreciate if you'd pretend to care.

WAY TO GO.
I suppose a valid playstyle involves 70 paragraphs a post, or maybe these days joke offends like a damn mother joke in England, right?

Sammich, calm down,

We're voting/FOSing you because you made a sarcastic comment rather than back up your FOS, if you back it up, we might take our votes/FOS's off you.

[JordanA24]

Tyler: A few things:

Making a mountain out of a molehill in post 176 even after I'd explained my problem with the posts.

Okay, I say we wait till we see more evidence for or against oman. So far, we have info about what he usually does, which cause a circle of questions.

Aimee find this post scummy, and while I didn't pick up when I first read it, I can see where she is coming from.

Your horrible misrepresentation of me that I explain in post 100

pre-that you make a lot of contentless posts that are just banter, which is fine, but there is very little definativeness. You seem to ALWAYS be unsure, much like scum faking cautiousness.

Oman, I find Tyler to be far from uncertain, in fact, he's declared 2 players to be almost certain scum already (which, admittedly, quite worries me), but a couple of contentless joke posts =/= a lot of his posts are contentless.

I'm starting to think poor playing is a playstyle of Sammich's rather than a scumtell.

The problem I have with this is that, you can use this excuse in any game that Sammich is in, whenever Sammich makes a bad move, he could defend himself or you could defend him by saying "My/His mafia play isn't usually very good, so we shouldn't lynch him for just bad/scummy play, he might be town playing badly", which, if we followed this all the time, would mean he'd be hardly ever lynched, even when he's actually scum.

EBWOP: Regardless of the above (post 203) I believe I am voting Jordan and prefer it there to Tyler.

Why? You seem to have a lot more "evidence" (which admittedly I don't find very good, but if you post it, you must think it is) against Tyler.

I'm quite unimpressed with SSF so far - I'd have expected more scumhunting. Similarly LML seems to have hidden away after a prominent opening.

My last post was 2 days ago, the same length of time

your

last post was...

Posting =/= Scumhunting.

I like how SSF is called out for lurking, responds immediately and doesn't scumhunt but rather attempts to cast suspicion on Aimee.

FoS: SSF

QFT

FOS: SSF

FYI this whole thing stems from Post 49. SSF defends Jordan and says he doesn’t considers Oman ok. That struck me as covering his bases or possibly a team member or 2.

So, your reasoning for your initial vote was "SSF defended 2 people. The scumteam has 3 living members, therefore he's more likely to be scum.", correct?

What a complete and utter misrepresentation.

As far as the ssf=scum, I was just trying to be humorous.

Posting something like that is not really something to joke about. Are you backtracking here?

Oman you have yet to provide evidence. You mad something up in an attempt to falsely corner me.

Tbh, this is looking like it may be the case, which is the main reason my vote remains on him.

I'm sure you are scum.

Even though there is a lot of evidence against him, I wouldn't go that far yet.

[JordanA24]

Actually, that last post of LTG has jolted my memory of what I forgot to put in my post:

I never said I had amazing reasons for voting for SSF. They are pretty stupid, but I am nervous that SSF is mafia.

This is a classic scum way of saying "I want to put my vote on this guy, because it's a convenient place to put it, but I don't want to post any major reasoning against him, because if he ends up lynched and is revealed as town, I won't look like one of the major protagonists of the bandwagon."

I felt he was trying too hard to cling his vote onto SSF, which makes me uneasy, especially combined with the backtrack in his last post, saying his suspicions of SSF were "retarded" gives me a strong backtrack feel. I think this deserves an

FOS: LTG

[JordanA24]

FYI this whole thing stems from Post 49. SSF defends Jordan and says he doesn’t considers Oman ok. That struck me as covering his bases or possibly a team member or 2.

So, your reasoning for your initial vote was "SSF defended 2 people. The scumteam has 3 living members, therefore he's more likely to be scum.", correct?

What a complete and utter misrepresentation.

I actually thought that was quite a fair post. Below is the first post where LTG shows a suspicion of me...

On another note, SSF has gone ahead and offered a defense of two other players. Not scummy, but certainly interesting that we have 3 remaining mafia.

...and I feel I made an accurate representation of that.

Sorry, my mistake.

[JordanA24]

Unvote Vote: Sammich

. I agree, almost no insight whatsoever, and why on Earth did you say Shteven is likely doc?

Also

Major Fos:Sammich

for claming your role within the analysis

Where did he do this?

[JordanA24]

No content whatso ever, I just want to wish Jordan a Happy Birthday!

Thanks!

[JordanA24]

Unvote Vote: Sammich

. I agree, almost no insight whatsoever, and why on Earth did you say Shteven is likely doc?

Also

Major Fos:Sammich

for claming your role within the analysis

Where did he do this?

Super Sexy Town. I'm pretty sure that's a claim no matter how retorical it is.

I think by town, he means town in general, not specifically townie.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY JORDAN FTW <-<

Thanks!

[JordanA24]

As far as claiming a pro-town alignment, I am surprised to see so much confusion/disagreement on it. I would assume that anyone playing mafia, in any game, would claim they are pro-town. Pro-town players because they're actually town, and scum groups because they don't want to be lynched. Therefore I don't see any value in saying it or not; it's a null tell. Scum should be trying to act town, it's one of the basic rules of the game. If they acted like scum, there wouldn't be much of a challenge. The job of the town is to watch for them to make is a mistake; they aren't going to try to make it easy on you. Mafia that don't attempt to play like town are undermining their team, their role, and the spirit of playing mafia.

This sums up exactly what I thought about it.

I dont buy your reasons for voting him....who exactly would he be signalling to? If he was mafia, why would be be signalling, when he could simply keep his mouth just, talk about it at night, and then NK you....as it stands, if you are NKed, many fingers will surely point his way.

Hmm, maybe, but what if he thought he might have been lynched today, and he wanted to get that across because he's quite sure. But then again, this seems damn risky for a scum to do, WIFOMy I know, but still.

I don't know about the votes on Shteven myself, to me, it smells like a scum-driven bandwagon to rival the one on Sammich. I'm not implying I'm that sure that Sammich is scum (though he's my Top Suspect at the moment), but Shteven doesn't seem to have that much against him, and personally, I think he's actively scumhunting atm.

Minor FOS: Ooba

His vote on Shteven seems a little opportunistic to me.

Oh, and thanks for all the Birthday Wishes!

[JordanA24]

Please don't cuss. I have virgin ears, thank you! No seriously, I don't like reading it, I find it offensive.

Waugh. I live in an urban area, plus I'm starting to get frustrated at the stupidity surrounding the case on me.

How am I supposed to defend myself over an analysis?

You could post a few opinions to do with the analysis, since that's the problem most people have with your analysis.

[JordanA24]

You could post a few opinions to do with the analysis, since that's the problem most people have with your analysis.

You want me to EBWOP a post I made almost one or two pages ago?

Yes, post some analysis that shows what you think about the posts you highlighted in your PbP, form some opinions and all that.

[JordanA24]

I think that while Shteven might have overanalysed the bump post a bit, I agree with the sentiment of the post, and that Sammich should scumhunt more, and form some opinions. Though to be fair to him, there wasn't too many posts between his bump post and the one before that.

What I find very interesting however is why neither of these posts were analysed more:

wow, I find it hard to contribute when no one else is contributing. I would post something worth posting if I actually had something to go off of.

Back.

Bump.

Oman's was nearly exactly the same as Sammich's, and Tyler's said he had nothing to contribute, despite Shteven's post on bumping just above potentially providing something to comment on. I get the feeling that Sammich's post was picked on and those two ignored because Sammich has the bandwagon on him, which is something the town shouldn't do, otherwise it may be very difficult for the person who's at the centre of the bandwagon to get out of it, scum or not, because the town is focusing entirely on them, and ignoring other players.

I don't think LaptopGun is too scummy, and the fact he's not posting too many of his own opinions is more of a playstyle thing. But I do advise him to try and post more opinions. Don't be afraid of being wrong.

First time I've ever seen bump posted to a game of mafia here.

Really? This is the fifth one i'm seeing in 3 games ..
Well the game is stagnating a bit and Sammich isn't helping the discussion or being productive - I'm ok with lynching him to move the game along ..

Vote : Sammich

Lynching to move the game along = Classic scum excuse to wagon.

IGMEOY

I still feel Shteven is the way to go..

also, I have seen and provided quite a few bumps..not a big deal, is somebody making it a big deal?

I'm not really buying your reasoning against Shteven, I felt his reasons for voting Sammich were decent, and certainly not opportunistic. Nor do I think him pointing out lurkers is deflecting, and that point seems to revolve around Sammich being scum with him, so I take it you find Sammich scummy as well. I think making points against players based on the alignment of others before that alignment is proven is less than convincing. Though I do agree with your latest point against him, where he contradicted himself.

[JordanA24]

@Jordan: were you saying that my post was scummy or that it needed to be analyzed? Just curious.

I was curious it wasn't analysed like Sammich's was, since it was essentially the same.

[JordanA24]

I'm going to say chronic lurking has broken this game apart a fair bit.

Now...I'm going to put forward an unpopular idea bbbbuuutttt...What if we just lynch a lurker (and I'm not usually in favour of this but this C9 allows a fair few mislynches I think). I mean, we get a bit more info (based on NKs and lynchee).

Or we could jsut lynch Schteven.

FOS: Oman

You've found Shteven suspicious for a long time now, you even suggested his lynch in that post, and yet tou say we should lynch a lurker, which is plainly a bad thing for the town to do, since we may as well be rolling a dice as to who, and therefore which

role

we lynch. The fact you even said that Shteven was suspicious in the same post you suggest lynching a lurker just makes it worse IMO, like you'd be happy just lynching anyone, which is what a scum wants to happen.

[JordanA24]

Also, scum are more likely to be lurkers than town (statistically).

Yes, but, truthfully, would you rather we lynched a random lurker, that is statistically more likely to be scum that town, or someone that has consistently made scummy posts, and are therefore, logically, more likely to be scum than town.

To use a cliché, this is a game of logic, not statistics.

[JordanA24]

Hey Fonz, thanks for replacing, this game needs some fresh insight.

So, are we actually scum hunting. I realize I haven't been, but I have been busy these past few days. IF we want to lynch someone, how about we find out who is the scummiest.

*Tyler says to himself: WoW! what a wonderful Idea!*

Alright then, who do you think is the scummiest?

Where's SSF?

I honestly have no idea. I didn't realise that I'd been gone for a week. I tend to base my posting rate on how fast the game itself is moving, so that I don't control 1 in 5 posts, and that each post I make is separated by a fair amount of other posts, so there's some content for me to actually talk about! There've only been 30 posts between this post and my last post, which, for a game with 17 players alive in it, is kinda sucky.

To sum up, I haven't been posting because overall thread activity is low. Whilst I realise that my lack of posting is contributing to this, I can't help but find it hard to be motivated in a game with so few active players...

Mod: Can we get prods on LML, White, ManaSpryte, AlyG, timmers, ooba and skitzer, and a votecount, please?

This sounds a lot like deflecting to me, particularly when you asked for the prods, which is just pointing out all the others who've lurked.

I'd like to see a lot more posting from you in the future Flea.

[JordanA24]

Thanks for taking over Khel.

We need something to talk about, I'm going to do a PbP, and see where we go from there:

Aimee:

Starts by agreeing with LML and putting a 5th vote on me, and FOSing Shteven for putting suspicion back on LML. I think the vote on me was fair enough, but Shteven didn't seem to be putting suspicion on LML. Indeed, he said:

I don't believe I've ever played with LML before (He's usually modding my games) but I suppose just from knowing him this kind of get-started-sprinting makes a lot of sense for him. I don't think it's much of a tell - in either direction.

I don't like how Aimee tried to erroneously link me and Shteven so early in the game.

Next couple of posts were an analysis of other posts, which I mostly agreed with. Was then absent for a couple of pages, made a post I agreed with. She then made a slightly scummy post here:

I kind of agree with both groups - I see there being better people to vote for than Sammich, but also didn't like his sarcasm and his bizarre actions so far.

I'm quite unimpressed with SSF so far - I'd have expected more scumhunting. Similarly LML seems to have hidden away after a prominent opening.

Fencesitting in the first paragraph, if there are better people to vote for, who are they in your opinion? And your opinion on LML seems to be based on lurking, which is not a scummy thing.

Disappears for a few pages, before finally voting for Sammich (I think she's a bit cautious with her votes), and finding SSF suspicious, both for not scumhunting. Comes back a week later, and it's exactly the same situation, nothing else for a whole week? It gets worse when she returns again after 10 days, and still has the same suspicions, with nothing else to contribute. To be fair to her, she has been busy, but I would expect a bit more after that amount of time. She's now still suspcious of Sammich, but not so much of SSF.

Conclusion

: Neutral, seems protown when trying. But I'd like to see a bit more contribution if you're not too busy.

LML:

Starts with saying I'm a surefire SK for ridiculous reasons, nobody is surefire anything after just 7 posts, as I said in my post after this, jumping to conclusions this quickly worries me. He then responds to what seems to be a random vote with:

You catch more scum on page one than you catch on page 30.

? Makes no sense to me whatsoever, you catch no scum whatsoever on Page 1 unless someone makes an obvious slip or admits so, and any suspicions on Page 1 are nowhere near as strong as they should be on Page 30. If you come back, I'd like you to explain this post.

You're quick to jump to conclusions...

I said "while it's possible" which means "there is a chance the vig killed the scum", not "the vig definatly killed the scum".

I never said that you said anything about "definates."

Instead, I spoke about your TONE. Sometimes, it not what a person says, rather HOW they say it.

I get the feeling I should have been more direct with this back then, here it goes:

Bollocks did I have a tone that suggested I was sure the Vig killed the scum, I was giving the vig advice why he shouldn't kill on Night 0 with no evidence, I barely touched on the subject of who he killed, this was the only time I did:

Vig, while it is

possible

that you killed scum last night

I've underlined the operative word for you.

timmers, I thought about that too. After re-reading I found out what he was trying to say. There isn't a 50/50 chance of hitting scum. But today, it was fifty percent chance that it was the vig that hit scum.

I think it was SK killing scum and Vig killing town. I don't know.
What are the odds of killing scum night one? I know it was more 25% than 50%.

Ahem. It was a 50% chance that the Vig killed the scum, rather than the SK killing the scum.

(eyeroll)

STOP MISREPRESNTING PEOPLE. He meant the chance of killing scum on Night 0ne in any game, not this one specifically.

I'm all for being serious on the first page, The only point of random voting is because there's nothing serious to talk about yet. If there's something serious, go for it.

As far as vigging goes, you may have a significantly higher chance to hit town, but hitting mafia is worth more. I'm not saying I'd recommend night one kills, but saying that you're more likely to hit town than mafia isn't the whole story.

As far a random vote, I'd

Vote TylerJ

because his avatar claimed godfather.

FoS: Shteven

You make the same "tone" mistake that Jordan makes. I dislike it. It makes me feel that you KNOW more than you should.

I wouldn't be shocked that one of them (Jordan and Shteven) is the SK and the other is the Vig.

More early assumptions, anyone played with LML before, is this playstyle?

I'm unhappy with the results of this thread.

What makes you say this?

I feel a town alligned player would have just waited for the mod to come and fix it, rather than an outcry for having it removed. I am not prepared to vote you on it, as it's unfortunate. However, you will probably be lynched over it.

Major FoS: Oman

This is a huge scumtell IMO, you feel what Oman did was scummy, you think he will be lynched for it, and yet you refuse to vote him for it. This means that if Oman was lynched for it, you wouldn't have appeared on the lynching wagon. If Oman is town, this would be a plus for you, and anyone skim-reading the game may well think that you never thought Oman scummy.

I am interested to hear AlyG comments at this point..

side question: both of your (Oman, LML) are on Jordan...do you both still think he is the SK?

Something about Jordan's D1 posts seem off to me, hence why I have not removed my vote.

I'd have liked an explaination for why my posts seem off.

Aimee (Her callout of SSF came out of nowhere. I have seen this a million times before. It's called the

Mafia Off Voter Play.

A mafia member puts pressure out of nowhere just so, if there's the tracing of votes later on, you see that one had the vote on the other.

Vote: Aimee
FoS: SomeStrangeFlea

This seems a very weird reason to vote for someone, since one being scum depends on both being scum. One calling the other out of nowhere could very easily be a nulltell, in fact, I think it is a complete nulltell, there's loads of situations where this has nothing to do with scumminess. In fact, voting because of this seems scummy, but then I think, why pick on Aimee, an experienced and proven player if you're going to do this? It's WIFOMy though. I'm calling this mildly scummy.

Conclusion

: Seems very scummy to me upon reread. I wouldn't mind seeing more pressure on this guy, well, actually his replacement, since LML seems to have dissapeared off this face of the Earth.

TylerJ

:

What made you more suspicious was your defensiveness. It's a newbie mistake that I can vouch for, but you are not a newbie. So in conclusion it wasn't one things, but two things. So there was some merited evidence.

FOS:Oman

your too careless about bandwagons. You also attempt to make people ignore the fact that you are bandwagoning.

Being defensive =/= Scummy. It's only when someone is overdefensive that someone is scummy, I was merely defending against accusations from another player, which is not scummy, otherwise we wouldn't get anywhere in this game.

I also think what Oman did wasn't worthy of an FOS, I'd personally disagree, but some players like an early bandwagon to start the game, which, if it's a playstyle thing (which in Oman's case, it is), it isn't scummy.

Seems to buddy up to people a bit more than I like, a lot of "I agree's" and trying to associate himself with others in his posts I've noticed, and trying to appear helpful.

I'm quite pleased that he tried to metagame Oman rather than jump blindly on hid bandwagon.

Okay, I say we wait till we see more evidence for or against oman. So far, we have info about what he usually does, which cause a circle of questions.

I don't think this is quite as bad as Aimee made it sound, but it was still pretty scummy, it had "Let's wait for Oman to slip up" vibes.

Unsure of myself? Still, I need evidence.

A few posts later...

ssf=scum

Seems to be contradictory, and there seems to be something worse about this, it could mean a lot of the time, you are faking being unsure to look more townie, and then you made a slip, by saying ssf=scum.

As far as the ssf=scum, I was just trying to be humorous.

Something like ssf=scum is not the sort of thing you joke about, this post made me much more confident in thinking you are faking being unsure, made a slip, and then you tried to backtrack when you realised what you said.

Oman you have yet to provide evidence. You mad something up in an attempt to falsely corner me.

I'm sure you are scum.

Again, you seem to be pretty sure here, have you decided to drop the unsure act?

I quite liked his post that said LTG had tunnel-vision for SSF. Same goes for Post 265, but I'm still not buying that he was joking about SSF=scum.

As far as the other points mentioned, I don't think any of the reasons are good for a vote. It seems that some people are a little noose happy.

wow, I find it hard to contribute when no one else is contributing. I would post something worth posting if I actually had something to go off of.

You could post something yourself.

Conclusion

:Slightly scummy, I don't really like his buddying up or his unsure act, but none-the-less, I get protown vibes from a lot of his posts. I think the act cancels this out and a bit more, but nothing voteworthy yet.

White

: Had to replace him in my game, so he probably needs replacing in this one as well.

Anyway, he starts by voting me, but then in his second post, he FOS's Oman for bandwagoning. A huge double standard by the looks of it here.

He follows it up with this:

*munches popcorn* This is cooking along just fine.

A completely useless filler post, why bother posting it at all. It also shows he's reading, but not willing to make useful comments. So he's off to a pretty scummy start.

Well actually if you want to read up on overdefensiveness read some of ZONEACE's posts. He swears and rants and uses caps all over the places. OMGUS's and other things.

I think this whole defensiveness vs overdefensiveness thing is stupid. Where is the clearcut line that says this is defensiveness but this is too far? There is none. You have to move it about depending on who you're playing with.

My thoughts? Jordan was too defensive.

Seems to be a contradiction in this post here, he says that we should look at ZONEACE for overdefensiveness, who uses all caps, swears etc. But then he says I was overdefensive, despite me using none of these and being completely calm in comparison to how he describes ZONEACE. He seems to be determined to stick his vote on me, even if I don't look scummy by his description, which unsettles me.

As for Shteven's claim. Yes, he is too defensive. Yes, he was a townie. Yes, he is being over defensive right now. Scumtell? Not yet. It took me over 100 pages of Shteven for be to finally get a good townie feeling from his posts. Currently i'd say it's a nulltell.

skitzer, short posts =/= townie.

I'm on the Jordan wagon to get things moving. Mountain of a molehill really. I'm going to leave my vote there for now though.

More double standards, he's admitted he's going to stick his vote on me despite my case being a "molehill", to bandwagon to get things moving, this despite him FOSing Oman earlier for admitting to bandwagon. And why is he so willing to let Shteven slide for overdefensiveness, while he's voting me for it, why not try to start a wagon on him instead of sticking to mine like a barnacle to a rock.

Skitzer, how many games are we in that my alignment is known (ie i'm dead)? Zero. You can't meta me for scum/town if you don't know my alignment.

Then why say it at all ? Or are you saying short posts aren't a town thing to do and to contribute more?

Because I was asked, duh.
Am I saying that? No! If you read the post you can see very clearly what i'm saying. Stop stuffing words in my mouth.

Yeah, but I was inflecting on your own playstyle.

White makes short posts = Townie
White makes long posts = SCUM!

First off, I haven't died in any games we're in together. So you can't know this.
Secondly it's untrue, when i'm scum and town I still try and contribute and scum hunt.
Thirdly you can't know my playstyle.

Unvote, Vote: Skitzer

for craplogic and being deliberately obtuse and unhelpful, in addition to distracting the town and not scumhunting.

Oh, and this isn't overdefensive. OMGUS, being rude to people who dare question you, not at all overdefensive .

Finally starts to make some protownish posts, refusing to vote for Sammich because it seems to be a playstyle thing that makes him look scummy rather than his actual alignment, which I think is in some way true. He also starts to constructively analyse things, and then he disappeared.

Conclusion

: Had a horrible start, full of contradictions and double standards, second half of his game was better, even protown, but not enough IMO to cancel out his first half. He's another player who could find my vote on him at the end of this.

Opposed Force

: Made a decent analysis after not posting for ages, though there was too many neutrals for my liking in that analysis. When someone pointed this out, rather than try to modify it, he just posted:

I believe the word is Neutral, my friend.

Everybodies a critic.

Not a very constructive response.

2) Claiming "super sexy town" is not a claim. "town" is a content-free (and therefore acceptable) claim to make at any time. Everyone here is town, right? claiming townIE -is- a claim, and that would be very suspicious. So sammich did not make a roleclaim. So while there's no real need to post your own alignment, if you feel like claiming you get the ladies, it's not a scumtell.

I disagree with this. A person would know his own alignment on hand once he gets the mod's pm. So by posting "Super Sexy Town" it would pretty much be claiming any of the roles on the town side. Whether it's cop,doctor,vigilante, or townie saying to everybody he is town means he is claming pro-town. Techincally I can see where this wouldn't actually be a actual role claim but an alignment claim. Also I'm not sure what you meant with your post "Everyone here is town, right?" Do you mean that most likely everybody here would claim pro-town?

You seem to be trying very hard to stick to your suspicions of Sammich here. How is claiming protown suspicious. And obviously everyone, if asked, would claim protown, the scum aren't going to ask to be lynched.

Other than that, I can't really find anything suspicious about him, and some of his posts give me a slight protown vibe, like he's genuinly scumhunting.

Conclusion

: (Ironically) Neutral

Sammich

:

Fortunately, we got one Mafia, vig or SK provided.

What did you mean by this?

Liked his vote on Oman, but then that was followed by a couple of very unhelpful posts, in response to ooba calling him scummy. He then questioned defensiveness being a scumtell, confirm voting Oman and made a useful post in response to White, all of which I see as protown.

But then he went and made a load of unhelpful sarcastic comments and got really overdefensive. Then he made the awful analysis that wasn't really an analysis, rather a list of what had happened in the game up to that point, followed by a short sentence on each, which included him pointing out Shteven as a possible doctor, which was a stupid at best, and very scummy at worst. He follows this with more nothing posts and overdefensiveness. In fact, since then, all it's been is mostly asking for vote counts, wondering where the mod is and other filler posts, with a few opinions thrown in sometimes.

Conclusion

: This is difficult, Sammich has been scummy, no question. Problem is, is this a playstyle thing, is he just a poor player regardless of alignment? In another game that's ongoing, he got lynched on Day 1 after being generally scummy, and turned out to be a townie. In that game however, most of comments were at least game relevant. Here they haven't been. Though when he has made game related comments, near the start of the game, I have agreed with them, and found them protown. I'm going to call him rather scummy for now, and will hopefully get a better read on him later. Anyone help on Sammich's meta-read that anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated.

ManaSpryte

Has made 3 posts and probably needs replacing. In his only post of content, he voted Oman, FOSed me for "overdefensiveness" and agreed with LTG on his "high post rate is bad for the town" theory, which I disagree with.

Conclusion

: Neutral so far, needs replacing to get a proper read on this role.

AlyG

: Another one who needs replacing. Has only made 3 posts on content, one where he votes Oman, and FOS's Tyler on what he admits could be a misunderstanding, which could well be opportunism, but he did only FOS.

Conclusion

: Neutral, needs replacing so I can get a better read.


I'll do the second half of this over the weekend hopefully, but if not (I've got homework and other games to worry about as well), I'll get it up ASAP.

[JordanA24]

Conclusion: This is difficult, Sammich has been scummy, no question. Problem is, is this a playstyle thing, is he just a poor player regardless of alignment? In another game that's ongoing, he got lynched on Day 1 after being generally scummy, and turned out to be a townie. In that game however, most of comments were at least game relevant. Here they haven't been. Though when he has made game related comments, near the start of the game, I have agreed with them, and found them protown. I'm going to call him rather scummy for now, and will hopefully get a better read on him later. Anyone help on Sammich's meta-read that anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated.

But why do we need a meta-read?

To know whether this is what you normally do or not.

[JordanA24]

LTG

: I really didn't like how desperate he seemed to keep his vote on SSF, particularly all the excuses he kept posting to attempt to justify it. The early evidence (the defence of 2 players), which is all he seemed to have against SSF for a while, he admitted himself was crap evidence. Was he trying to buddy up to SSF here as well, in an attempt to try and stop SSF questioning his vote?

But you know what, I keep thinking SSF is being disingenuous. He keeps like trying to grease the wheels of the Oman bandwagon. So I am staying with my vote right now. Also I can't exactly switch now anyway as wouldn't that look scummy? Thanks.

How was SSF encouraging the Oman wagon, the only times SSF have mentioned Oman up to this point, he said Oman was protown. And switching your vote wouldn't look scummy at all. Players are expected to switch votes from time to time, in fact, if they stick to one player for what seems an inordinate amount of time for not very good reasons, that looks scummy.

And 2 minutes later, he says

ABWOP I should say Oman vacilates between deflecting attention from Oman or trying to "grease the wheels." I am not really sure what to make of that.

Assuming you meant "SSF vacilates", then in either this post or the above one, you're lying, since in the above, you think SSF is scummy for "greasing the Oman wagon" and in this post, you're not sure what to make of SSF greasing the Oman wagon. So either you're fabricating reasons for finding SSF suspicious, or you're faking not being sure.

I never said I had amazing reasons for voting for SSF. They are pretty stupid, but I am nervous that SSF is mafia. If I cant say it any clearer. I really think you guys are doing a good job getting people to talk in this thread, which is something that has been lacking in my other games. I appreciate you getting me to think more about what I believe. It is frustrating that I can't really be as active as I like to be so I am keeping up as best I can.

So, now you're "nervous" SSF is scum, you should be nervous of anyone being scum, unless they're confirmed town, so that's a pretty null reason. I think in the second half of the post, you're getting desperate, and pleading to us with compliments.

Finally, LML returns with content. Yeah Aimee is still a blackout for me. My wavering suspicions of SSF are what they are: something I am nevrous about. I am starting to see how retarded my fears about SSF have been, but whatever. However I agree aimee was out of nowhere, unless Aimee really puts stock in my curious notes. Oman is right, it maybe a stretch, but it is so very strange I gotta pay attention to it.

Im gonna unvote now just to try to make up my mind about somethings.

unvote SSF

.

Why the sudden change of heart? Calling your reasons for voting SSF retarded seems like a major backtrack.

What did you want to make your mind up on?

I completely disagree with his theory that less posts and a slower game pace benefit the town, less posts mean the town have less posts to analyse for scumminess, and a faster pace means the scum are more likely to slip up.

We're going to have power role claims starting on page 6 or 7.

What makes you say this?

TylerJ

Goes along with voting Jordan with the tone in the early stages in the game. Casts suspicous on Oman for being to careless in bandwagons and sees him trying to throw attention off him. Gets a null tell on White's statement about "short post=townies" and says that if such discussion on things like this were to continue then people would become too focused and miss lynching scum. Counter-reacts to Oman accusing him of past actions such as stating "He's trying to get people to ignore him" Several inrevelant posts later he posts "We should wait until more evidence for or on Oman comes up." It seems like he really wants to push suspision on Oman or want people to make a strong case on him when the evidence arrives. Then he proclaims SSF as scum after evidence is given and after SSF makes a defense he says in that defense he scumhunted and takes back the statement of SSF being scum back and says he's just trying to be humurous. Vote:TylerJ Getting a strong scummy vibe from him.

I see Tyler J as either the sterotypical leader by default or completely anti-town. He really does want to further the discussion, but then when it comes to actaully delivering, he remains aloof or beligerent himself. I think you rightly proclaim some of his behavior as scummy, but he may just be so forceful he does that naturally. I dont know as of yet. What I do know is that a lot of my suspicions of Oman, besides what I percieved as insincerity on Oman's part, were originally pointed out by Tyler. I suspect that several others agreed with him (whether directly or as a concurrent opinion). So you have a single player having a profound impact on a bandwagon.

Ooba-

Would like to see more from this person. Not active in discussion in throwing in some of his opinions or thoughts but instead asks questions refering to what he quotes. Does a short Analysis on people who were involved with the Oman bandwagon and gives little sentiments on the topics with two "No Comment" I don't see the reason in quoting something when you have nothing to say. A theory of my could be he didn't want to press suspicous on certain people but I can't say this is true but it's possible. Netural feeling on him.

I'd like to know why Ooba did the quoting without the analysis. Was his point suposed to have been so self-evident he didnt' feel obligated to point them out? Or does he want to lay the ground work (collect and show the evidence) of a case but does not want to be responsible for the subsequent lynch of a townie. This is counter-town.

Right now Tyler seems more of a suspect than Ooba.

By your logic in this post, shouldn't you find Ooba more suspicious than Tyler? In your analyis of Tyler, you acknowledged that his behaviour could simply be playstyle. While Ooba's laying the groundwork but not actually posting anything that can later be called leading a wagon on who maybe a townie is certainly scummy.

I didn't find the post scummy. I thought it was a mildly curious point that didn't get addressed perhaps as much as it should have been (like a lot of things in this game) but I dont see it as a bit of concern. Tyler has done some other things which are more noteworthy. He has also taken pains to address my concerns and I find they are reasonable. Let me say I still stand by what I said, but Tyler is trying to help keep this game going. That does say something to me and it's generally good. His exact motive of course isn't clear but thats why the game is divided into sides (town, mafia, other antitown). We all get carried away some times and say things we regret. Sometimes they are simple "heat of the moment" we regret afterwards. Of course by the same token these could be scumtells. I still think Tyler is suspicious, but I also feel he is trying to be sincere. Again whether that's in the town's best interests remain to be seen.

That's how I see Tyler. Someone acting to keep the game going (probably good) for unknown motive (good? bad? ugly?).

So, your only motives for finding Tyler scummy is that he has an unknown motive, and that he keeps posting evidence without making a case.

Well, assuming you're town (and not a Mason), everyone but yourself has an unknown motive, so that reason's crap.

As for the posting evidence without making a case, I can vaguely see where you're coming from, but I disagree.

I hate to nitpick in your otherwise clear analyisis, but I am curious what you meant by "pressure".

Votes. Glad to see people agree with me.

Conclusion:

Scummy. A lot of his actions have raised questions in my head, and look pretty scummy to me. His determination to keep his vote on SSF looked especially scummy as well. Not sure which of him and LML are scummier, but both are voteworthy IMO.

SSF

: A lot of his posts seem to lack content, but I think this may be because of a lack of verbosity rather than a lack of actual content.

But, there does seem to be a definate lack of scumhunting in his posts, and not just his early ones, there's quite an even spread of posts with little/no scumhunting. I can live with his lack of motivation excuse for now, but if this carries on, I will be making a proper issue of this.

Conclusion

: Neutral, for now.

Timmers/The Fonz

: Timmers produced no content that can be analysed.

The Fonz hasn't really posted much to analyse either. But I disagree with him saying the Oman wagon is poor.

Oman saying that he'll hop off any wagon when it gets to -2/-1 is scummy, see Post 136 for my reasons why. He never explained this:

Also, Hypocrit Jordanscum just wagoned on me for something "incredibly scummy" that he "missed".

Explain why I am a hypocrit.

And I have generally disagreed with him on a lot of subjects.

Conclusion

: Not really got a proper read on him yet.

Shteven

: I like this guy, I find his arguments to be logical and well-thought through. I see him as genuinly scumhunting most of the time as well, infact, out of all of his posts, I only have issues with these:

I voted for this, but in looking back, it seems like Jordan may be the better choice.

What makes you say this?

It's been mentioned on behalf of omen a few times. Should probably double check if he's used it himself, but metagame defenses aren't really a scumtell imho. They just bother me, because people aren't likely to go read all the other games for a small chance at improving a read.

I disagree that trying to metagame someone can only result in a small improvement in a read of somebody. It can make a huge difference. Let's take the example of Quagmire, in most of his games, he acts like an idiot (Fair enough, this is personal opinion, if you disagree, substitute Quag with someone who you think acts like an idiot in every game), to someone who has never played with Quag before, and has never read a game with him in it, Quag playing like an idiot will look scummy, while someone with more knowledge of Quag's playstyle will know that he does this in every game, so therefore know it's a nulltell.

Seriously, this lack of response doesn't make him that much more likely to be mafia. And I am rather afraid we'll be mislynching town...he's just not giving me much to work with, to let him off the hook.

I don't know, but this gives me a feeling you're keeping your vote on Sammich for the sake of keeping your vote on the leading wagon.

I also find it especially odd that Sammich's post seems to have stopped all other debate. Doesn't anyone else have something to say?

Why is this a problem? All this discussion on Sammich will either result in more votes and pressure on him, or the wagon will stall or even dissapate, maybe to be replaced by another wagon. That's the way the game goes. Why are you trying to deflect the talk on Sammich?

And that's it really.

Conclusion

: Seems protown to me, my only real cause for concern with Shteven is his apparent deflecting of attention from Sammich, which deserves to be looked at further if Sammich ends up being scum.

CKD

:

FoS: Oman

, would be a vote if this wasnt a consistent behavior in every game I am in with him.

Why are you FOSing Oman for what you know is a nulltell?

aimee, last time I am going to try to explain it to you. You have a crazy looking guy who always sharpens knives while mumbling to himself in the park (ie bandwagoning acting scummy). You see this guy and you automatic think, jesus he is going to kill someone (scum) in the park (town). If it was the first time I have ever seen the guy, I would probably call the authories to throw is ass in jail (vote for a lynch). However, you go to 4 other parks and see the same guy acting the same way in every park.

Now the odds that he wants to kill someone (scum) in every park (town) is very low. I dont want to ignore him (no FoS) because the dude is acting very strangely(scummy), but I am not sure he is a killer (scum) either..

thus the FoS.

metagame, for yourself and see what I am talking about

This is a pretty ridiculous anology IMO. The fact of the matter is, Oman does this in nearly every game he's in, therefore it's a nulltell, therefore it's not FOS-worthy.

I think your case against Shteven is poor:

well you also said,

.... "Bump" doesn't give much to reply to; and some players are afraid their post will stand out......


....Bump certainly isn't scummy, but it's also not scum hunting, something Sammich hasn't made any serious effort to do. .....

who is really making something turn 180 degrees?

all I aksed was is someone making a big deal out of it?

keep stretching.

I can't really see how he turned 180 degrees here. In his second quote, while he does say that the bump isn't scummy, combined with the lack of scumhunting in that post and his other posts, it is scummy, hence he says just before it "I still feel Sammich is the play for today", so, really, you're taking quotes out of context, which is scummy.

Can't find much else other than these.

Conclusion

: Slightly scummy, certainly not as lynch-worthy as others in this game anyway.

Ooba

:

And you're scum ..

This post bothers me. It's on Page 2, nobody (or at least no townie) is supposed to be sure of anything on Page 2. Neither does he provide any reasons to back it up in this post or the last one, the one before that, he did put an FOS on Sammich, but that was for Sammich voting LML for being serious on the first page, hardly compelling evidence of someone's scumminess.

First of all , Oman could be considered suspicious for his bandwagoning but thats hardly any reason to put him at 6 so soon .

I disagree.

So i have a feeling theres one or two highly opportunistic scum on the oman bandwagon ..

Lets Analyze the reasons they give for being on it ...

Bandwagons=/=Shamelessness
Bandwagons=Reason

No Comment..

Anyway, Oman's first post doesn't really help him any. All that concrete info in the first legit-game post is not exactly innocent-townie-ish behavior.

He isn't even stating that anything about the bandwagon - He's voting for him because of Oman's first post being big??

That was shameless bandwagoning (Though you have stated you always bandwagon) and of course you piled on a vote to (Shock,Horror) the guy with the most votes of course! At least try to provide a plausible reason when you vote someone.

Forgive me if im wrong but doesn't bandwagoning mean voting for the person with the highest number of votes?

I'm going to throw my lot in with Skitzer and Vote: Omen With the additional reason that jumping on the bandwagon was too soon, and especially since he tried to downplay it. If you're going to join a wagon, own up to it.

No Comment..

I hated ALL of Oman's posts. I can't see how any of his posts help. quick wagons dont help this early.

But you go and vote for a quick wagon on your second post in the game ...

I can't believe I missed such a scummy post. Oman, what is the point of an early bandwagon if you're just going to hop off at -2/-1? I'm not a fan of early wagons for little reason myself, I think they stunt the flow of the game (hence me being so suspicious of LML) and I prefer to wait for someone to post something properly scummy before we pile in on them. But if you're going to go down the early wagon route, why on Earth unvote as soon as it gets to -2/-1, isn't the whole point of an early wagon to pressure. If you try to dissapate a wagon as soon as the player starts feeling pressures, you're just stunting the flow of the game for no reason.

This depends on playstyles i guess . I for one would not keep anyone at -1/-2 unless i know they are most possibly scum ..

Skitzer has basically just joined the bandwagon giving (What in my opinion) is a very lame reason for voting .. So

Vote:skitzer

Again, this post bothers me, for the amount of no comments where there could be content and analysis. Scum are very wary to make sure there posts don't stand out, or cause too much of a concern to people, they'd much prefer to float by in the days, giving as little content as possible and getting noticed as little as possible. Posting things such as "no comment" or other fillers rather than content is a very viable way of doing this, hence my suspicions of this post.

Skitzer was the 3rd person on the wagon, at which point, I personally wouldn't call it a wagon.

Ooba: Could you, or at least explain why you didn't, fill in the blanks of your last post?

I did not comment on Sammich's post because there wasn't any content in it to make out anything except the fact that he was voting Oman for his Bandwagoning.In short a null tell.Couln't think of anything to say for Shteven's post.

You could have said something along the lines of I agree/disagree for Sammich's post or something. Same with Shteven's post, I just can't believe that you couldn't think of anything for either post. IMO, this post also falls into the catagory of trying to avoid the spotlight, like the last post.

Though to be fair, this trend does decline later on, and I think the opposite happens in this post:

Are you happy with the results of Jordan's wagon or do we need to take it all the way to lynch?

Should we delay a lynch if sammich gets to -1 or -2, or is this enough day 1 posting?

Sammich's analysis is a null tell for me (and i know this is WIFOM, but saying someone is something i could imagine a mafia doing)

Shteven on the other hand seems anxious about the lynch and that does seems suspicious ..

Vote : Shteven

and an

FOS:Aimee

if he turns out to be scum .. (Because Post 230 was directed at Aimee and it just seems somewhat scummy to me)

Rather than slipping quietly onto the Sammich wagon, he bucks the trend and votes for Shteven, and FOSes Aimee for spotting something no-one else did. Neither player had much attention on them before this.

Well the game is stagnating a bit and Sammich isn't helping the discussion or being productive - I'm ok with lynching him to move the game along ..

Vote : Sammich

I've already said this before I think, but lynching to move the game along=bad.

I think we need a lynch to move the game along .. (Jordan says lynching for the sake of moving the game along is suspicious .. But this game just strikes me as one where everybody is waiting for something to happen and lynch should probably make it interesting again) .. And as Oman pointed out - we are hardly in LyLo now ..

I'm fine with lynching either Shteven or Sammich..

"We are hardly in lylo now" really stands out for me in this post. I doesn't matter whether we are in lylo or not, town should be trying to find the correct lynch, not the quick-fix lynch. Trying to move the game along by suggesting quick lynch targets is a very easy way for the scum to get the town to lynch who they want without really being that culpable for it afterwards. Using the excuse "We are hardly in lylo now" gives me the impression that that is your aim, to get the town to lynch who you want.

Conclusion

: Kinda scummy, I think he's worth keeping an eye on, I think he is the current dark horse for who I think is the most deserving of a lynch so far.

I think it's best to post this now to keep the game moving, and do the final two later on.

[JordanA24]

Why are you voting after reading just 2 pages?

[JordanA24]

I'm having a thought.

Perhaps we only have one cop (who is now dead) and the confirm on laptopgun was a balance maneauver.

It still shouldn't have been done, I'd say 3 townies and a cop for 1 scum is a fair swap without the cop result.

[JordanA24]

I'd support an abandonment, this game has nowhere else to go, the scum have got very little chance of winning now, and if the mod tries to balance it by giving the scum some perks, it'll be so detached from a normal Mafia game the final result would have not much to do with how well the players played.

[JordanA24]

Do we want to do a massclaim? I wouldn't mind seeing who the scum were.

I'm a cop, I investigated LML N1 Innocent.

Probs best not till we get an official abandonment.

[JordanA24]

6. If you want to question my bias, yes I benefited from the mod revelation more so than other players. I realize that. The town benefited by having the innocence of one of it's member's confirmed. The mafia lost a member and apparently will have a clear bias to nightkill me. The town just lost a powerful role too (granted there maybe another cop- I don't know, but it's a possibility). I still think the mafia can win this game- get a mislynch of a townie or get the S/K lynched then nightkill me. Suddenly the mafia are in good shape again. Oh and let's not forget we apparently have 2 power roles who can nightkill. Yes you could lose another mafia member or 2. That's called risk. Another townie or 2 could get nightkilled by those roles- and your position is even better.

But what if another scum is another one of the MIA's. Then they'll probs be modkilled, then the scum would have absolutely no chance.

[JordanA24]

Do we want to do a massclaim? I wouldn't mind seeing who the scum were.

I'm a cop, I investigated LML N1 Innocent.

Probs best not till we get an official abandonment.

ASDFSDFSDF

ASDF?

[JordanA24]

No, what does ASDF mean?

I know, I'm a newb to this

[JordanA24]

Ah, I see

[JordanA24]

5. Perhaps Khel didn't want to mod kill the other MIA's because there are more mafia members or power roles represented in that group.

Exactly, which is why he

should

have killed them. It's not the mod's place to choose which roles to keep alive for balance sakes, because then that leaves players guessing "Well, did mod leave them alive because they're town power roles, or because they're Mafia?" which is

not

what Mafia is about.

I'm a Doc, I protected LML N0.

ZOMG, we were so on the same wavelength.


Even though I was getting a lot of excitiment from this game, I will not continue it, I feel it has shifted too far from the actual spirit of the game.

I vote that New C9 goes back to the open queue so that people can play it again if they want.

I'd agree with this.

[JordanA24]

Vote: Abandon

[JordanA24]

Do I take that title as game abandoned?

[JordanA24]

Yeah, I apologise as well Khel, I really shouldn't have said some of the things I did in my PM.

I was also scum, and since Sammich was absent and my final scumbuddy, that's why I was so supportive of the abandonment, I'd have had next to no chance on my own, against a town with a confirmed townie.

[JordanA24]

God, I was screwed.

I'm interested to know to who the SK was, he seemed to be the only bad guy with a slight chance of winning.