Mini Normal 1719 - Flavorless Fun! [Game Over!]

[Dierfire]

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

You!

[Dierfire]

DWL is Town and easy to lynch. Players voting DWL are therefore more likely to be Mafia.

UNVOTE: BBT
VOTE: Keyser

[Dierfire]

Is being an asshole a scum tell? Can someone tell me?

I find it usually to be the opposite, although I hate to hand out reads for that because I don't want to encourage people to annoy me.

[Dierfire]

DWL is Town and easy to lynch. Players voting DWL are therefore more likely to be Mafia.

UNVOTE: BBT
VOTE: Keyser

Why are you speaking in absolutes?

"DWL is Town"
DWL is "easy to lynch"
"Players voting DWL are therefore more likely to be Mafia"

I don't like this logic at all - it feels unnatural.

I'm not sure what this question about absolutes is. Do you mean to ask why I said that DWL is Town without a word like "probably" in there? I didn't feel that I needed such a word there. Were you worried that I was saying it because I knew him to be Town, because I was Mafia?
I think that the logic is very natural. I will break it down. Town players vote for those they believe to be Mafia. Mafia players vote for those they know to be Town (except when voting players they know to be Mafia, which is presumably less frequent). So, if I believe a player to be Town (such as DWL), others voting for that player are more likely to be Mafia than are others voting for some other player.

DWL is Town and easy to lynch. Players voting DWL are therefore more likely to be Mafia.

UNVOTE: BBT
VOTE: Keyser

I feel this is a weak reason. I did not like how that sentence was constructed. "easy to lynch" - what part of Dwlee99's play is

easy to lynch

? His vote on me had a logical fallacy feeling to it.

"Player A is easy to lynch, therefore Player B who voted for Player A is more likely scum" :?

Still waiting for Dierfire's comments.

Whoah, hey! I'm not sure that "still" is an appropriate word for your wait until at least 12 hours have passed since your question.

I say that DWL is easy to lynch because I played with him before and he was lynched fairly easily (he was Mafia, his partner helped).

Also, a bit of a continuation of the above--players voting for those I read as Town are more likely to be Mafia than are players voting for those I read as Null or Mafia. That's the theory, anyway. I suspect that you agree with this theory, because you are analyzing the votes on your wagon.

[Dierfire]

I find the wagon on Garmr to be weakly reasoned. Pistachion's reasons were weakest.
I thought that Mykonian's case on Hieirama was better than his case on Garmr was.

@Hieirama

Why did you post a read on me that included only my RVS vote and the wagon on me? What about the serious things that I posted?

EDIT Working on it!

[Dierfire]

Wait HOLD ON. I was just about to reply to Garmr's

Also what's this bs about calling someone town. I said I don't see anything scummy yet.

because I was pretty sure Garmr's 24 was an indirect reponse to Lalendra's 22, so he was in effect defending me. But "nothing scummy" != "town". Mykonian, why did you claim he was "trying to call someone town" in your 37? I think you should address this.

pedit @ DWL: OK I get it dude, I'm not going to push this any further because I feel like we're going in circles.

pedit2: Yeah, I can see where you're coming from Myko (re: Hieirama), but I'm not done with you. I'd also like to know why you delayed your vote on Garmr until he voted you first. And this coming from someone who called another player worthless in part for their OMGUS vote earlier...

I thought that the timing on this post is a bit weird. The "pedit2" is for a post from nearly 20 minutes prior to this one.

@Herrcombs

Why did it take you so long to write this one up?

[Dierfire]

@Mykonian

What else would you like to discuss?

[Dierfire]

Garmr's vote on you?

we could be out of rvs right now.

You know, why not.

Garmr already committed a scumtell trying to call someone town. There's no need for the word "honestly" there, it only makes sense from a point where scum is trying to think like town. The word "honestly" implies that he comes from a setting where he was prepared to lie this game, then found a situation where it wasn't necessary. Add to this that he's stepping in to protect someone from an accusation and that little sentence becomes quite damning. Buddying and at the same time showing off his mindset is scummy.

So dwlee, are we out of rvs? :)

honestly I use that word a lot it features in all my recent games. Also what's this bs about calling someone town. I said I don't see anything scummy yet. You seem like your reaching so have my vote.

VOTE: mycorana

I thought that it was fine--not a particularly strong case but not a particularly weak one for that point in the game.

[Dierfire]

Hieirama's reaction to your accusation--which one?

I could see this one coming from Mafia:

Should I go back to lurking or?

This one seems to combine confidence and insecurity:

Heh.

I made that readlist, you're right, to contribute a little bit more than a one-liner. I'm not sure how that's scum-oriented?
I'm not being helpful if all my opinions are all jumbled in my head. So why not share it, even if it's minor?
This is the fastest pace game I've played in. I do hate missing the boat.

I'd read the confidence as fake. I could see that from Mafia.

[Dierfire]

Keyser's vote for Hieirama?

I thought that it was pretty good. He certainly presents some corroborating evidence for the case that you presented, anyway.

so soze. You are still sitting on a dwlee vote. This seems outdated. Not saying you should vote garmr.

But at least vote hier then who more or less claimed scum with her reply.

Scum-lean read on Hieirama.

By post 76, Hieirama posted an extensive positive/null/negative "vibes" list based on everyone's posts (reads based on posts <#67).

Why positive/negative "vibes" and a

running narrative

on events, why not call them town/scum reads? He only committed giving a "Slight Town-Lean" to herrcombs. Noted.

I'm still trying to comprehend what's going on… These quick reads and half-joking remarks are throwing me off.

I'll try anyway. No use for me if I just sit to the side.

"I'll try anyway. No use for me if I just sit to the side."

- I am uncomfortable with this soliloquy, feels like this reads/vibes list has been tough work for Hieirama to express (and has maybe been posted a little too early).

VOTE: Hieirama

[Dierfire]

@DWL

Do you think that Keyser would not dismiss your case if he were Town?

Oh, that reminds me...
UNVOTE: Keyser
VOTE: Hieirama

EDIT: Do you think that he would not chop your quote if he were Town?

[Dierfire]

Too many posts...
Garmr claimed BP. I dislike this. It's a poor time for a claim and a suspicious sort of claim to make. I don't want to say that it's so obviously a bad idea for a Town player that it could only come from a Town player, but...
---
Other things...
Implosion seems Town to me. Did I say that already? I'll agree with his opinion of DWL (Town but not helpful right now).
I think that I want to hear more from Lalendra. Not making cases is fine; not making cases while also not asking questions is too passive.
Oh, Felissan came back! The vote on Hieirama was good and most of the reasoning seemed good (about the posts feeling uneasy). This was less good:

I'd like to put a bit more pressure on him, hence my vote.

It feels a bit defensive, like an attempt to gain distance from the case.

[Dierfire]

Brief post, sorry: I'm not caught up but I will catch up this afternoon.

[Dierfire]

@Haschel

Now this is interesting. Herr calls out Dwlee for manipulating mykonian's words, but then votes for mykonian for tone reasons. Don't like this one bit.
---SNIP---
Alright, Townreads are mykonian, implosion, Garmr, and Herrcombs.

Unvote: Herrcombs

How did you settle on reading Herrcombs as Town?

[Dierfire]

UNVOTE: Lalendra
The list has arrived~

Back to Garmr for the reasons I was already on the wagon before I switched to Lalendra.
VOTE: Garmr

Hmm, I didn't read it as a policy lynch.
UNVOTE:

I am so confused right now. Did you literally just vote Garmr, then unvote him once you understood that I was just PLing him? Why does my vote inform yours in any way, since you were "already on the wagon"? Did I miss something or is this just incredibly weird?

Cause now I feel like Garmr's posts are townie and so I'm less sure of Garmr being scum. Gotta think.

I removed my vote on Keyser cause there was no way to get a wagon on it. He's still my major scum read but if no one agrees there's no point in me being super stubborn over it and insisting to vote keyser which would just piss everyone off.
I don't know about the garmr lynch. I am doubting that read because I liked their read on lalendra (after I found out I totally misread lalendra's post)
I don't see why Lalendra would try to put a vote out and then just be like 'Oh, well, don't think I'm suspicious when he flips cause policy lynch.' This also made me doubt my read on Garmr because why would scum!lalendra make a policy lynch vote on scum!garmr?
I feel confident in this vote.
VOTE: Lalendra

This is an interesting interaction. DWL was temporarily voting for Lalendra before, too, (for lurking?) before switching to Garmr.
I'm making a note to check this out again if either of them ever flips Mafia.

[Dierfire]

@BBT

I'm not seeing the Dier town read - talk to me about it. Everything he is posting feels off to me and I can usually read Dier as town pretty quickly.

Ha ha, you think you know me? I think that, of games we've both played Day One, you've voted for me more times than not (although I checked 1669 again, and you came around faster than I remembered).

[Dierfire]

@BBT

I think I want to lynch inside of Pistachion, Dier and Felissan.

Say, why not Lalendra? You had only negative things to say in 293.

[Dierfire]

I said that if either you or Lalendra flip Mafia, I need to read that interaction again.

[Dierfire]

Sadness...

[Dierfire]

Well then, you'll have nothing to worry about if Lalendra flips Mafia and I read the interaction again.

[Dierfire]

Decide what?

[Dierfire]

@DWL

I don't like Haschel's way of joining the Lalendra wagon.

Why not?

[Dierfire]

I think I can read you pretty well, yeah.

This is true enough that now I'm wondering whether BBT is Mafia rather than simply wrong.

[Dierfire]

Ha ha, you think you know me?

I think that, of games we've both played Day One, you've voted for me more times than not (although I checked 1669 again, and you came around faster than I remembered).

The underlined was more of a joke than actually questioning your abilities.
I acknowledge that you usually end up reading me correctly. We'll see, I guess.

[Dierfire]

The second sentence wasn't a joke--that part is true! Your vote typically doesn't stick, though.

[Dierfire]

Spectacular!

[Dierfire]

Sure, that sounds reasonable.

Garmr

is probably Town, I think. I definitely don't believe that the use of "honestly" is relevant, and the claim makes less sense from a Mafia player than from a Town player. Still, Mykonian was reading to me as Town as well, so I'd look elsewhere on his wagon for Mafia players.

Haschel

hasn't done anything that makes me want to cast a vote, but I'm not reading him as Town, either.

Implosion

is logical enough. His reads on Garmr and Mykonian are in tune with mine, and his interaction with DWL around the claim was solid. He's my best bet for Town on my wagon (actually, did Lelandra ever get around to following your instructions for a vote?).

DWL

is likely Town, although a bit jumpy over the potential association with Lelandra. I'd hesitate to endorse many of his reads, but maybe he'll find his feet later.

Felissan

has been flying below my radar. I wouldn't mind hearing more from him.

Herrcombs

, too, doesn't feature much in my notes. I guess that I like the English-to-English translator thing that he's got going on--it feels reasonably Town-motivated.

Hieirama

remains suspicious to me, mostly for seeming too defensive in interactions with Mykonian.

Mykonian

seems to be stuck in a tunnel, but I'd read him as Town.

Lelandra

certainly bears watching. Voting for Garmr without actually reading him as Mafia is troubling, though now I need to reference that against Hieirama's activity.

Pistachion

is moderately suspicious. Unlike some of the others (Felissan, Herrcombs), the relative lack of content feels more intentional, and if I decide that you're not Mafia, Pistachion would be a good bet for Mafia on Garmr's wagon.

Keyser

has been absent for a long time. I was feeling good about him before he left, though.

That brings me to you! Figuring out whether you're wrong or Mafia will be an exciting journey for both of us, I'm sure.

So, overall, I feel that I'm doing better reading Town than Mafia, but I'd be suspicious of Mafia taking a relatively inactive approach (as I suspect all major wagons have been on Town so far). Hieirama, Lelandra, and Pistachion are the ones that I most want to watch.

[Dierfire]

The claim wasn't good. It was so inappropriate that, as a matter of probability, I'm considering it more likely to come from Town.

[Dierfire]

Do you believe being defensive is a trait reserved exclusively for scum?

Can you explain what makes you think I'm scum?

Is this for me? Doesn't matter--I'll answer it anyway.
I do not believe that being defensive is a trait that belongs definitively to Mafia players.
Other than your sudden inability to read me, I guess that the best evidence would be your vote on Garmr and your subsequent move off when the wagon got stuck.

[Dierfire]

For now, my vote will go somewhere completely different...
VOTE: Hieirama
The wording in some of his posts just has a feel of uneasy scum (constantly insisting on whether his play is scummy or not, worrying too much about not doing enough) - I mainly think of these lines:

I made that readlist, you're right, to contribute a little bit more than a one-liner. I'm not sure how that's scum-oriented?

Scum can casually give opinions on recent events too, though, its not just a Town thing.

-snip-

Kind of. I'll restate it: "I'll attempt to form an analysis even though I don't fully get what's going on, because it's much better than lurking around."

I'd like to put a bit more pressure on him, hence my vote.

I totally skipped past this post lol.

Hmm, I meant to question why my actions seemed scummy, not insist I wasn't.
I get the second part. I do want contribute as much as possible.

Look at this post for reference. Why does Hieirama need to respond to Felissan here? Wouldn't it be better to go do something active, rather than responding to an old vote?
To me, Hieirama seems very concerned with the way that the other players read Hieirama.

[Dierfire]

Why would I move off of Garmr as scum?

The wagon wasn't moving. If you're Mafia, then I guess that you wanted to simulate activity rather than sitting on a stuck wagon?

[Dierfire]

1. I was going to say that Hieirama seemed nervous and overly preoccupied with responding to everyone that mentioned Hieirama. However, I just noticed that Hieirama has responded somewhat selectively to being mentioned. Let's see...89 features responses to Herrcombs, Mykonian, and DWL. There's a response to Keyser and to me in 168. Hieirama does address some questions from you in 252, but neglects to respond to Lalendra's 259. I'm not really sure what to make of that.

2. No, see, that sounds like something crazy that someone trying to misrepresent my read would say.

[Dierfire]

By the way, who is still on the Garmr wagon? It's been a while since I've seen the votes counted.

[Dierfire]

If that's not what you're implying then I fail to see how you can justify your scum read on me based on the reasoning that I got off the Garmr wagon. Can you clarify for me?

I see the problem. I collapsed a few things into this:

Other than your sudden inability to read me, I guess that the best evidence would be your vote on Garmr and your subsequent move off when the wagon got stuck.

It's not the fact that you removed the vote that would make me suspicious, it was the mechanism.

You said these things:

Tbh, I'm kind of just hoping the vig shoots you so we can find out what's going on.

I think I want to lynch inside of Pistachion, Dier and Felissan.

UNVOTE:

Because I felt like I was borderline policy-lynching him. His claim will sort itself out at some point, if not, we can look at it another time.

I also disliked some of the jumps onto his wagon and I want to have a look at the many people who are flying under the radar.

I don't know - I just got cold feet about the whole thing. You're right, the claim doesn't make sense - but I also believe Garmr is capable of a much better fake-claim if he were scum.

In the first one, the sentiment feels wrong (why should a Vig shoot a player that you wouldn't lynch?); in the next two, the timing is wrong with the lynch targets that you outlined (Pistachion voted for Garmr immediately after you did, and neither Felissan nor I voted for Garmr at all) For the last two, those thoughts on the claim are coming a bit late.

I don't know. I was going to say that I was still more suspicious of those other players, but now I'm wondering whether I can talk myself into this.

[Dierfire]

Our deadline is still a week out.
Where's your vote now, and to where were you thinking of moving it?

[Dierfire]

@Herrcombs

Dier's 231: He says "Garmr claimed BP. I dislike this." but what he said after that doesn't follow. "I don't want to say that it's so obviously a bad idea for a Town player that it could only come from a Town player, but..." seems like fence sitting, why not give an opinion one way or another which way you view?

Sorry, I was unclear--I'm reading Garmr as Town (see my 360 for clarification). I was saying that I dislike reading people as Town for counterproductive behavior, but in my experience such behavior does tend to come from Town players.

@ Dier's readlist in 357: What makes you think DWL is town? What's the "English-English translator" think you mentioned in your read of me? Why does your read on Lelandra need to be "referenced against Hieirama's activity?"

Regarding DWL: I think that his attitude towards other players reflects not knowing their alignments. Examples include getting hung up on Keyser "manipulating his posts" (157, 159, 163) and his fight with Mykonian (54, 71, 73, among others). To me, he reads as looking hard for suspicious activity, but he's not really trying to manipulate others into following him; he mostly just calls out things that he finds suspicious.

The "English-to-English translator" thing is when two people either don't hear each other well or don't understand each other well, and a third party that hears and understands both sides (and therefore sees where the miscommunication occurs) interjects and fixes the problem. I was referring to examples like these:

Spoiler: Quotes

That is not why myko called Dwlee worthless.

because I was pretty sure Garmr's 24 was an indirect reponse to Lalendra's 22, so he was in effect defending me. But "nothing scummy" != "town". Mykonian, why did you claim he was "trying to call someone town" in your 37? I think you should address this.

pista was referring to myko here, not Garmr. His null/weak town read was on myko.

That last one is a good question. I don't really remember why I noted that, but it seemed important at the time. I wrote in my notes that I should specifically be referencing Lalendra's 259, which does mention Hieirama:

Hieirama – 76 seems like feigned scumhunting, as pointed out by herrcombs in 169. Could just be noobtown, someone who is trying to figure things out but not really sure where to go, but reads more like noobscum. Not a fan of how 180 only addresses one point out of the many questions she could have chosen to respond to, and then goes on to bring us back to Garmr’s 24. At the same time, in more recent posts, she has explained her reasoning, explained that she is new and may not be interpreting everything correctly, and has made some interesting points, so I'm starting to lean more noobtown.

What would you make of that quote?

[Dierfire]

Pistachion's reads were somewhat superficial and certainly selective. In the face of previous lack of content that felt more intentional to me (dropping in for a line or two every now and again but not really engaging in meaningful dialogue--335 is a good example of jumping in briefly and then disappearing for another day), I think that it's enough for a vote.

UNVOTE: Hieirama
VOTE: Pistachi0n

Keyser's review also narrowed in on Pistachion quickly. I'd like to see a more complete review from him.

[Dierfire]

That's L-1 for Pistachion

[Dierfire]

Oh, are we doing this again?

I want to go here:

VOTE: Hieirama

Hieirama seemed to be stalling and intentionally not giving opinions.

@Hieirama

For which player(s) would you like to cast a vote?

[Dierfire]

Garmr

is probably Town, I think. I definitely don't believe that the use of "honestly" is relevant, and the claim makes less sense from a Mafia player than from a Town player. Still, Mykonian was reading to me as Town as well, so I'd look elsewhere on his wagon for Mafia players.

Mykonian

seems to be stuck in a tunnel, but I'd read him as Town.

Hey Dier, can we go back to these reads please?

Wanna go take a look at that Garmr wagon and tell me your thoughts on it? Who was scum on his wagon?

Why do you think Myko is town?

Unfortunately, the wagon on Garmr is not captured well by vote counts. Let's see...

[3] Garmr - mykonian, BlueBloodedToffee, pistachi0n [L-4]

Right before this DWL removed a vote from Garmr (cast in 183, removed in 250). He then comes back in 265.
Right after this Lalendra adds a vote (259).
Is that as far as the wagon went?

I'm still having difficulty sorting you out, so my best guess for Mafia on Garmr's wagon would probably be Lalendra. I like that shuffle from DWL less now than I did before; I should probably stop cutting him so much slack for inexperience.
Why is Mykonian Town? I agreed with his case on Hieirama (82). His decision to stay on Garmr after making that case on Hieirama felt to me like Town on a mission (hence not switching to Hieirama). His vote didn't move much but he was paying attention to other players, and his activity level is high enough for me to give him points for not lurking.

[Dierfire]

@Garmr

Herrcombs doesn't appear to be here right now, so I'll do the English-to-English translation. Meanmelter is using the notation "-Town rep" as opposed to "+Town rep", so he's not actually "giving you Town rep" in those posts, he's indicating the opposite.

[Dierfire]

Oh, I see that Hieirama beat me to that.
Well, anyway...

@Hieirama

Aaand, I think implosion was NKed for being pro-town.

What other reason would there be? See, this sounds like you're just posting to say things rather than to provide us with any real analysis.

EDIT: (

@Garmr

)
No, I suppose not.

[Dierfire]

@Hieirama

I don't get why people don't like how selective pistachi0n's reads were. Simply, he didn't have a read on them, and it can be better to leave them out then to post null fluff. ((I actually made the mistake of posting that kind of fluff earlier, I realize this and I apologize.))
And the lack of content this is a borderline lurking vote...

Withholding opinions is detrimental to the Town and benefits the Mafia. Do you acknowledge this? Also, what is "a borderline lurking vote"?

And then he questions Keyser's reasons for his vote? Keyser's reasons were better than his imo.
Hmm... I'm starting to get why people aren't liking Dier...

I didn't question Keyser's reason for voting, but that's a separate matter. Why do you think that Keyser's reasons were better than mine? Do I understand correctly that you are therefore reading Garmr as Town?

[Dierfire]

@DWL

What's stopping you from being proactive TODAY hieirama?

I also am declaring intent to hammer Pistachi0n. He's not even giving a defense of any sort, just that he's an easy mislynch apparently, and his reads list was awful.

Something here feels off to me. Why did you declare intent to hammer while still asking Hieirama to contribute? I know that Garmr dropped a hammer before you, but as you didn't see that coming, these two parts of the post feel contradictory.

[Dierfire]

@Hieirama

You explained how his lack of contribution to Town was one reason for your vote, right? Posting fluff and not posting enough are two different things. Pista was doing a little bit of both, so I feel like the vote had a bit of "lurk" drive in it.

I'm still not quite getting this. Do you think that either of those things (posting fluff, not posting enough) are bad reasons to cast votes?

[Dierfire]

@Mykonian

And I'm not even voting for you.

you could change that! :D

You don't appear to be voting for Garmr, either (if 452 was supposed to be a vote, it didn't get counted).

[Dierfire]

I want Hieirama, Haschel, and Keyser to cast votes.

[Dierfire]

I like Keyser's recent series of posts. I think that lynching Haschel would be better than lynching Garmr, but worse than lynching Hieirama or Lalendra.

UNVOTE: Hieirama
VOTE: Lalendra

@Garmr @Keyser

If you're reading Lalendra as Mafia, I think that you should vote for Lalendra.

@DWL

I'd like you to discuss further your impression that either Lalendra is Mafia or Garmr is. Are you equally willing to vote for either?

[Dierfire]

@Hieirama

"My opinion still stands"
Past opinion was: "I assume he's Town."
Sorry, didn't feel like typing it out again.
I didn't substantiate it well enough. If you need a clarification, one reason why I Townread him is because his tone sounds like it's at a Town POV.

If you're reading Garmr as Town, then do you think that people voting for him are more likely to be Mafia?

[Dierfire]

I'm not sure that I understand any of that...at all.

[Dierfire]

I understand that better, thanks! Still, I was hoping that you might do some of that analysis yourself!
Who is most likely to be Mafia on Garmr's wagon? Who is least likely? If, as you say, the Mafia should be trying hard to lynch Garmr, then why have they not yet succeeded? Do you think that they lack the votes (that is, that most of the Mafia players are already voting for Garmr and are therefore unable to add votes to the wagon), or that they are trying to slow the lynch so as to avoid suspicion (that is, that most of the Mafia are not voting for Garmr currently but are planning to do so later)?

EDIT: Yes, those things as well!

EDIT AGAIN: I really have nothing to say about this one, I just wanted to point out that the first edit was about Mykonian's post.

[Dierfire]

I'm still having difficulty sorting you out

Why do you think this is? I don't think you've ever shown much difficulty in working me out before.

Yeah, but you usually you say things that are right!

[Dierfire]

@BBT (So was the previous post)

Say, what's going on with that mangled quote in 625?
Also, you said that you were confidently reading DWL as Town. In that case, which players that were "seriously" pushing the issue of Garmr's hammer did you have in mind here?

I don't know why the quickhammer was scummy and the people who are pushing this seriously need to be looked at. The Day was clearly over.

[Dierfire]

That's L-1 for Lalendra, right?

[Dierfire]

UNVOTE: Lalendra

Seriously?

[Dierfire]

Okay, if I'm at L-1 then I guess it's claim time, before Garmr lolhammers again.

Garmr is already on the wagon. This claim feels fake to me.

@Lalendra

Which player did you protect N1?

[Dierfire]

So, having a Doctor and a BP in the same game is not impossible, but does seem a bit defensive to me. I'm also suspicious of the frequency with which our wagons are turning up roles.
If Lalendra is Mafia, the claim was probably designed mostly to dodge the lynch, rather than draw a counter, because the same principle that makes Doctor and BP unlikely to show up together makes it a less useful fake claim for drawing a counter.

If I could be certain that only one of the claims is true, I'd still probably want to lynch Lalendra (because Garmr would be reasonably confirmed if she flips Mafia and would not die immediately).
If both claims are true...well, then I'd want to look very carefully at the distribution of votes.
I wouldn't think that there's any way for neither claim to be true unless we're looking at multiple unfriendly factions.
We've plenty of time to think this through. I'm going to read through again over the next two days since I won't be busy.

@Haschel

It seems to me the question is if we think a doctor and a bulletproof townie would both be in the same game.

As you didn't remove your vote, I assume that you think not?

@BBT @Hieirama

You were absent for these events. What do you think of the wagon dynamics (speed, composition)?

[Dierfire]

Right, I'm catching up now.

[Dierfire]

@DWL

From the posts you quoted Garmr I see a scum team between Dier and Lalendra. They are distancing but back tracking to avoid having the lynch go through.

I think that dier is town.

These don't go together.

@Lalendra

I reread Dierfire's ISO and I'm back to FOS'ing him. He asks a lot of questions of other people, but offers very little of his own opinions; it seems like he is just mostly fence-sitting, and offering very wishy-washy opinions, like he's trying to maintain distance from his reads in case he's wrong. I don't get the impression that it's just overly-cautious town play. I'd be comfortable with lynching him today.

This...sounds very fake. I wonder whether you could substantiate these claims further.

[Dierfire]

@BBT

OK, so are we lynching Dier yet?

I've been fairly tolerant of this so far, but if you're wrong and not lying, then you need to get to work.

[Dierfire]

Phone post:

I just dropped my computer and now it won't take charge from the power cord. I'm still here but I will not be able to post from my computer until I get this issue fixed.

[Dierfire]

I meant to say also: I will not be making much use of quotes and the formatting may be off.

[Dierfire]

Anyway, the Haschel votes:
I don't really want to lynch him for that vote on Lalendra. She's still suspicious enough that I don't see that as a Mafia player trying to lynch quickly.
Honestly, if we're going to lynch a wagon opposed to Lalendra then we should lynch Garmr. His claim makes his power less useful if he is Town, and his wagon yields good information regardless of his alignment.
I'm still not convinced that we should be lynching either of them, though. I want Lalendra's answers.

[Dierfire]

This is so slow--just terrible.
737 doesn't make much sense to me. I am Town but if Lalendra is Mafia then so am I because she is distancing herself from me? How does that look different from me being Town and her legitimately wanting me lynched?

[Dierfire]

I'll have more things later.

[Dierfire]

Lalendra did vote for me, though!

[Dierfire]

@DWL

How certain are you that Lalendra is Mafia? Your "associative tell" makes you sound very confident, but I don't believe that you're voting for Lalendra...

Where is Lalendra?

[Dierfire]

@Hieirama

I think that BBT is the only one voting for me currently.

[Dierfire]

@Garmr

That sounds like a job for you! What in particular about either Mykonian or MM needs more scrutiny?

[Dierfire]

@Hieirama again

What do you mean about Haschel not being here?

[Dierfire]

Associative tells, Dierfire, associative tells.

If someone is saying "This slot is scum" but never actually votes that person then it's very likely that they are mafia trying to distance.

@DWL

How certain are you that Lalendra is Mafia? Your "associative tell" makes you sound very confident, but I don't believe that you're voting for Lalendra...

Where is Lalendra?

My associative tells mean nothing if they're not scum. I'm not confident at all that they are scum (and their doc claim seriously throws me off) but if Lale flips scum I'm coming for you~

I'm not going to try to format quotes.

752 does not agree with 770.

@Lalendra

Are we talking about the same person?

[Dierfire]

@Hieirama

Huh, okay.

vote: dierfire

@Dier
They haven't posted for 3 days now.

How does that make him less likely to be Mafia?

[Dierfire]

We're short on time. I really don't believe Lalendra's claim, and her addressing me in the third person telling me that I'd see her point if I read my ISO is not really an appropriate response to my challenge. My strong preference is to lynch Lalendra.

VOTE: Lalendra

If we can't make this happen, I'm not confident that any of the current wagons are on Mafia. I do believe that Herrcombs and Keyser are Town, so the Haschel wagon does not seem to be driven by Mafia, and I'm not quite sure what to make of that.

[Dierfire]

I asked her and she said that she protected Mykonian.

[Dierfire]

That bit about Garmr was a joke. I protected mykonian because he was my main town read, and was actively scum-hunting, and was concerned that he might be enough of a threat that scum would NK him to shut him up.

[Dierfire]

Everything other than the claim is bad, and even the claim is suspect.

[Dierfire]

I think that Garmr's role is a partial CC.
I'm still on my phone so no quotes, but Lalendra has lots of things missing that I'd expect to see from Town. Why didn't she mention Haschel's vote on her (for L-1)?

[Dierfire]

If I'm Town and someone with such low activity casts that vote, I'm very suspicious of him.

EDIT: Then where was our kill?

[Dierfire]

It means that she's not serious about analyzing her own wagon.

[Dierfire]

She's more concerned with threatening Garmr than with reading Haschel or Herrcombs.

[Dierfire]

I'm here.
How much time?

[Dierfire]

Fine:

UNVOTE: Lalendra
VOTE: Haschel

[Dierfire]

@DWL

When I asked Lalendra which player she protected, you had a problem with that question.

[Dierfire]

I think that dier is town. Although they have been generally passive and sitting back and asking questions I feel that those questions have solid reasoning in them.

I like Keyser's recent series of posts. I think that lynching Haschel would be better than lynching Garmr, but worse than lynching Hieirama or Lalendra.

UNVOTE: Hieirama
VOTE: Lalendra

@Garmr @Keyser

If you're reading Lalendra as Mafia, I think that you should vote for Lalendra.

@DWL

I'd like you to discuss further your impression that either Lalendra is Mafia or Garmr is. Are you equally willing to vote for either?

Like this interaction with Garmr & Keyser

@Hieirama

"My opinion still stands"
Past opinion was: "I assume he's Town."
Sorry, didn't feel like typing it out again.
I didn't substantiate it well enough. If you need a clarification, one reason why I Townread him is because his tone sounds like it's at a Town POV.

If you're reading Garmr as Town, then do you think that people voting for him are more likely to be Mafia?

Good question.

Okay, if I'm at L-1 then I guess it's claim time, before Garmr lolhammers again.

Garmr is already on the wagon. This claim feels fake to me.

@Lalendra

Which player did you protect N1?

Not really alignment-indicative question but meh.

So, having a Doctor and a BP in the same game is not impossible, but does seem a bit defensive to me. I'm also suspicious of the frequency with which our wagons are turning up roles.
If Lalendra is Mafia, the claim was probably designed mostly to dodge the lynch, rather than draw a counter, because the same principle that makes Doctor and BP unlikely to show up together makes it a less useful fake claim for drawing a counter.

If I could be certain that only one of the claims is true, I'd still probably want to lynch Lalendra (because Garmr would be reasonably confirmed if she flips Mafia and would not die immediately).
If both claims are true...well, then I'd want to look very carefully at the distribution of votes.
I wouldn't think that there's any way for neither claim to be true unless we're looking at multiple unfriendly factions.
We've plenty of time to think this through. I'm going to read through again over the next two days since I won't be busy.

@Haschel

It seems to me the question is if we think a doctor and a bulletproof townie would both be in the same game.

As you didn't remove your vote, I assume that you think not?

@BBT @Hieirama

You were absent for these events. What do you think of the wagon dynamics (speed, composition)?

Another good question.

[Dierfire]

@DWL

What does "not really alignment-indicative question" mean there?

[Dierfire]

I wouldn't be surprised if all players on the Haschel wagon were Town. I'm still reading Mykonian, Keyser, and Herrcombs as Town, and I'm back to reading DWL as Town after wrestling with that one for a while.
So, I'm looking at Hieirama, Lalendra, and MM.
Reading through Haschel's ISO, I note that he was very inactive with his votes.

Spoiler: Votes

RVS on Herrcombs in 9, removed in
Votes Lalendra in 334, stays there for the rest of D1.
Votes Lalendra in 664, stays there for the rest of D2.

To me, that pattern suggests that he felt the game to be well in hand. The D2 vote on Lalendra is tough for me because it looked good for a bus, but it's unclear to me why he would be so excited for a bus while being so unenthusiastic about any alternative wagons.
So, I think that I want to vote for Hieirama. The reasoning for staying off of the Haschel wagon in 764 is weak, and none of the reads really connect; reading both Lalendra and Garmr as Town should open up a whole host of questions as to where the Mafia are distributed on those wagons, but Hieirama ducks that analysis.
I also need to read over MM.

VOTE: Hieirama

[Dierfire]

My connection died and I missed a line: Garmr needs attention as well, but if Haschel was lurking because the game seemed to be under control, then I would expect most wagons that we've seen to have been on Town players, and Garmr's wagon has been fairly consistently present.

[Dierfire]

Do you think that his vote on Lalendra was, then?
I'm having difficulty seeing Mafia players on Haschel's wagon, so if not Lalendra or Hieirama then it seems to me that MM and Garmr would have to be Mafia.
Also, does Haschel's play not suggest to you that he was fairly comfortable with the direction of the game? I'm not sure why he'd be so inactive while his partner's wagon was going so strong.

[Dierfire]

I could see Herrcombs's shuffle as a bus if Lalendra is Town, I suppose.
With regard to him being dead weight, that's only a problem for the Mafia if his inactivity hurt them, and it's not clear to me that it did.

[Dierfire]

@Hieirama

I feel like you're ignoring me.

[Dierfire]

@Garmr

Basically I'm trying to force a scenario were she gets confirmed or forces her as scum to get lynched or forces scum to leave a confirmed town alive.

Those sound really difficult to do simultaneously!

[Dierfire]

@Hieirama

I'm not that into vc analysis particularly.
I think they're both Town and I think we've got scum hiding in some common townreads.
The NK makes me more suspicious of this, actually.

Could you name a specific player?

[Dierfire]

@Garmr

I'm not sure that your plan is working.

[Dierfire]

Phone post (I gracefully and wisely locked myself out of my apartment):

@DWL

What? Are you talking to me, about me, or neither?

[Dierfire]

I second Herrcombs's questions for Hieirama.
I'm looking forward to Lalendra's thoughts.
MM is correct that I should pay him more attention. That will be my priority later tonight, I hope.

[Dierfire]

Oh, that's interesting. Normally I'd assume that the Mafia had a Roleblocker, but that's a strange role for a game with Masons and BP. Maybe a Strongman instead?

[Dierfire]

I'm back on my computer, by the way. Lalendra's claim actually makes me want to lynch Garmr a bit, but there's an element of WIFOM in there as well.
In either case, I should read MM again.

[Dierfire]

These walls are really difficult to get through.
Oh, MM was Felissan, right? Maybe I'll try to build up to it by reading Felissan again.

[Dierfire]

The vote on Hieirama in 224 is in a suspicious place if Hieirama is Mafia, because that particular wagon was just starting to build.
Overall MM seems to care about mostly about Garmr. I am surprised that he hasn't shifted to look at other players, especially if he's as confident about Garmr as he says. It makes for repetitive and unproductive days.

@MM

Garmr dies and flips Mafia. What then?

[Dierfire]

Actually, I'm taking the rest of the night off.

[Dierfire]

Why did you pick BBT?

[Dierfire]

So, I was thinking that it would be unlikely for the Mafia to have a Roleblocker or a Jailkeeper or a similar ability (because it wouldn't help them against the Masons or the BP). This becomes slightly less true if Garmr was lying about his role, but I'm still finding it difficult to see. That's why I'm wondering about a Strongman. What do you think?

[Dierfire]

Mykonian's case seems reasonable to me. I'm considering some additional things as well.

If Lalendra is Mafia, the players who voted for both Lalendra and Haschel (Herrcombs, Keyser) would be all but confirmed. To read either of those as Mafia is to read Lalendra as Town.
If Lalendra is Town, her point about the relatively unlikelihood of the Mafia having hit her target with the Strongman ability, particularly when her ISO lacks much mention of BBT to indicate that she would have protected him, stands (although less so if the Mafia has a Strongman with multiple or unlimited shots). This would mean that she was more likely blocked by an ability that targeted her directly, which seems an unusual role if we have so many powers that cannot be blocked (Mason, BP). Given that a Mason has flipped already, Garmr would be more suspicious in that case.
Hieirama still makes me nervous about the lack of significant interactions. It feels difficult to get any opinions. However, we can probably afford to let that slide for now.

I'd like to test Mykonian's theories.

UNVOTE: Hieirama
VOTE: Meanmelter

[Dierfire]

If you made a powerfully persuasive case on MM, I didn't read it. I suppose that I might have missed it because I wasn't really paying attention to MM.

[Dierfire]

I really want Hieirama to cast a vote.

[Dierfire]

@DWL

If MM was defending Haschel, then do you believe him to be Mafia?

[Dierfire]

reading both Lalendra and Garmr as Town should open up a whole host of questions as to where the Mafia are distributed on those wagons, but Hieirama ducks that analysis.

I'm not that into vc analysis particularly.
I think they're both Town and I think we've got scum hiding in some common townreads.
The NK makes me more suspicious of this, actually.

@Dier

Common Townreads; Dwlee, Herr, Keyser.
It unsettles me that it seems like scum haven't tried targeting them yet.

p.s. not liking how anti-Garmr Meanmelter is being

VOTE: Meanmelter
Didn't feel that good about his tunnel, and I did agree with Garmr that there was a bit of misrep in his case. Also, the point Dwlee made about the refusing the defense accusations.

I actually like this last post from Hieirama because it finally has some continuity.

[Dierfire]

I'll post tomorrow; tonight, I can't.

[Dierfire]

I'm here and reading now.

[Dierfire]

Keyser wants to lynch MM, which is good. I share his concern about players that I read as Town (Mykonian, Herrcombs) being on Garmr's wagon while Hieirama is on the MM wagon. Still, I'm not terribly excited to switch my vote.

[Dierfire]

So what are you guys gonna do D4 when I flip scum?

I was thinking of sending Hieirama after you.

[Dierfire]

If we want to wait for Hieirama's replacement, that's fine with me. I don't really have much else to say at this time.

[Dierfire]

If MM is Town then we probably can't lynch Mafia today.
I'm especially interested in what AJ thinks of MM.
I will not be around at the deadline, and I'm comfortable lynching MM, so I'm leaving my vote here.

[Dierfire]

You're sold that Garmr is town, eh Dierfire?

I am, more or less.

[Dierfire]

Which one of them would be your best guess for Mafia?

[Dierfire]

What makes you say so?

[Dierfire]

If Lalendra was really the Doctor then the Mafia really had an ability to bypass her protection or block her action. I'm not voting for Garmr unless someone convinces me that the game isn't better balanced with a Town BP.
Herrcombs makes a good point on AJ and one that I'm following with interest.

[Dierfire]

So he says, but then he spent several weeks on some half-baked meta-case on me.

[Dierfire]

@Herrcombs

I wasn't referring to the number of votes on you.

To what were you referring?

[Dierfire]

@Garmr

I appreciate you reconsidering your self-vote. I would appreciate it more if it didn't happen again.

[Dierfire]

I'll be back in a few hours for a closer look at AJ, but I am suspicious of his decision to leave his vote on MM while reading.

[Dierfire]

I wonder why Keyser doesn't find me suspicious.

[Dierfire]

VOTE: AJ

Suddenly, now, he's responding to things in real time before finishing reading the rest of the thread?

[Dierfire]

I do not understand the continious reluctance to lynch garmr.

Lalendra flipped Town, so we assume that she wasn't lying when she said that she attempted to protect BBT. The Mafia either had a way to stop her action or a way to overpower her protection. The former makes little sense in a design that only has one Town role with an activated ability; the latter makes more sense in a design that has a Town BP than it does in one that does not have a Town BP.

[Dierfire]

1. Do you disagree with the theory?

2. I was reading Garmr as Town well before Lalendra or BBT flipped. Were you under the impression that the only basis for this was his claimed role?

[Dierfire]

@Mykonian

If you really can't recall anything that I've done, I suggest that you read my ISO.

[Dierfire]

I don't know if I want to lynch Mykonian. I definitely think that AJ is more suspicious, and Mykonian's stance towards Hieirama was odd if they were both Mafia.

[Dierfire]

Anyone?

I'll take a look at it now.

[Dierfire]

I agree that the first lynch was unlikely to have only Town players on it. If I'm right about AJ, and if you're Town, that leaves either Herrcombs or Mykonian. Herrcombs helped lynch Haschel when he could have let it go, so I'd bet on Mykonian as Mafia. I'll have to ponder further whether you're Town, though.

[Dierfire]

(@Keyser)

I agree that the first lynch was unlikely to have only Town players on it. If I'm right about AJ, and if you're Town, that leaves either Herrcombs or Mykonian. Herrcombs helped lynch Haschel when he could have let it go, so I'd bet on Mykonian as Mafia. I'll have to ponder further whether you're Town, though.

[Dierfire]

We'll see. I want to lynch AJ first, anyway.
Say, on that note, what do you think of AJ?

[Dierfire]

I, too, am waiting for AJ.

[Dierfire]

Garmr and DWL are Town.
Keyser is probably Town.
One of Mykonian and Herrcombs has to be Town by the numbers.
AJ is Mafia.

I can't think of anything else that would help my read on Mykonian and Herrcombs as much as lynching AJ.

[Dierfire]

Guys. Why are we letting this live?

To whom are you speaking?

[Dierfire]

An unpleasant thought has occurred to me.

UNVOTE: AJ

I will consider this further when AJ returns.

[Dierfire]

It might be difficult for me to keep my vote off AJ when it looks like we might actually get a lynch, but I'll make a heroic effort and see what happens.

Here's the thought that occurred to me. AJ placed a vote on DWL that was fairly futile. No one else seems to be suspicious of DWL; even when criticizing his play, Mykonian didn't want to vote for DWL, and other players (Garmr, Keyser, I) have been openly reading him as Town. So, if AJ is Mafia, why is he placing his vote where it doesn't do any good?
I suppose that one explanation is that he really hasn't read through the main thread or the Mafia thread. Another is that he anticipates being lynched and is trying not to leave clues. The third is that he isn't Mafia and has a legitimate suspicion.

I have a hard time believing the first explanation with so many days gone. I'd like to believe in myself enough to assume the second, but I'm worried about the third.

[Dierfire]

Actually, on further review, it's not clear to me that Keyser was reading DWL as Town. I'm not sure why I thought that he was.

[Dierfire]

@DWL @Garmr

What do you think?

[Dierfire]

@DWL

If scum go for the weakest town it is easier to see them just trying to get an easy mislynch rather than scumhunting. By going for me AJ is not attacking a weak town member. That make sense?

I guess so. You just seem like an unusual choice to me.

[Dierfire]

@Mykonian

Dier I think showed his hand with his vote on me after you went with it.

I didn't vote for you.

Also, you and DWL seem to be agreeing that the Mafia would be unwise to go after a "weak" Town member, and I'm uncertain why "this line" doesn't work:

If scum go for the weakest town it is easier to see them just trying to get an easy mislynch rather than scumhunting.

I don't think this line works anymore.

Scum have an issue. You are town. Soze is town. I'm town. Herr is town. There are good arguments for all of those. And there's a mason still around. Scum run out of weak town before they can win the game. They actually have to create new possible lynches.

Why do you find it unlikely that AJ is trying to create a "new possible lynch" on DWL?

[Dierfire]

That's fair enough, I suppose. It's just that AJ feels uncoordinated to me. If the plan was to be resigned to his lynch and have him vote for an obviously Town player (in order to avoid leaving clues after his death), I would have expected his partner to vote for him and strongly advocate for his lynch. I haven't seen any great candidates for such a partner. You, Garmr, and Herrcombs have all been on and off the wagon.

[Dierfire]

I suppose that we can take AJ's relative quiet around his lynch as evidence of his guilt.

[Dierfire]

Ah, well played!
I thought that DWL was the Mason because BBT was so confident about reading him as Town.
I was fairly wrong about everything; Garmr was the only good read that I had for the entire game.
My apologies to AJ, MM, and Lalendra for my incorrect suspicions and to BBT and Mykonian for apparently being a distraction!

[Dierfire]

I would have had a very hard time with that! Right after BBT died I was waffling on whether you were the Mason, but if Herrcombs had waited until now after seeing that Garmr was obviously reading you as the Mason, that would have made me suspicious.
I should also mention that I was backing off of AJ at the very end because I thought that him voting the Mason meant that he didn't have access to the Mafia thread, where the identity of the Mason would surely have been mentioned.

[Dierfire]

@BBT

Forgot about Dier, put him in there as well.

This makes me so sad! How could you have forgotten me when you spent so much of your time trying to lynch me?