Mini Normal 1719 - Flavorless Fun! [Game Over!]

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Really? I mean, you just questioned my ability to read you and now you've completely 180'ed and said that I can read you pretty well. Not only this, but you're now trying to use this as reasoning for scum reading me...have I got that right?

[Dierfire]

Ha ha, you think you know me?

I think that, of games we've both played Day One, you've voted for me more times than not (although I checked 1669 again, and you came around faster than I remembered).

The underlined was more of a joke than actually questioning your abilities.
I acknowledge that you usually end up reading me correctly. We'll see, I guess.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

But the joke appeared to continue into the next sentence and that second sentence doesn't read like a joke to me?

You're back pedaling and it's painful to watch.

[Dierfire]

The second sentence wasn't a joke--that part is true! Your vote typically doesn't stick, though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I agree, my D1 voting is usually erratic as I try to gain and develop reads.

Once I get a scum read though, it doesn't usually move. You can expect to have my vote for a while.

[Dierfire]

Spectacular!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

How about you talk about some of your reads?

Who's scum?

[Dierfire]

Sure, that sounds reasonable.

Garmr

is probably Town, I think. I definitely don't believe that the use of "honestly" is relevant, and the claim makes less sense from a Mafia player than from a Town player. Still, Mykonian was reading to me as Town as well, so I'd look elsewhere on his wagon for Mafia players.

Haschel

hasn't done anything that makes me want to cast a vote, but I'm not reading him as Town, either.

Implosion

is logical enough. His reads on Garmr and Mykonian are in tune with mine, and his interaction with DWL around the claim was solid. He's my best bet for Town on my wagon (actually, did Lelandra ever get around to following your instructions for a vote?).

DWL

is likely Town, although a bit jumpy over the potential association with Lelandra. I'd hesitate to endorse many of his reads, but maybe he'll find his feet later.

Felissan

has been flying below my radar. I wouldn't mind hearing more from him.

Herrcombs

, too, doesn't feature much in my notes. I guess that I like the English-to-English translator thing that he's got going on--it feels reasonably Town-motivated.

Hieirama

remains suspicious to me, mostly for seeming too defensive in interactions with Mykonian.

Mykonian

seems to be stuck in a tunnel, but I'd read him as Town.

Lelandra

certainly bears watching. Voting for Garmr without actually reading him as Mafia is troubling, though now I need to reference that against Hieirama's activity.

Pistachion

is moderately suspicious. Unlike some of the others (Felissan, Herrcombs), the relative lack of content feels more intentional, and if I decide that you're not Mafia, Pistachion would be a good bet for Mafia on Garmr's wagon.

Keyser

has been absent for a long time. I was feeling good about him before he left, though.

That brings me to you! Figuring out whether you're wrong or Mafia will be an exciting journey for both of us, I'm sure.

So, overall, I feel that I'm doing better reading Town than Mafia, but I'd be suspicious of Mafia taking a relatively inactive approach (as I suspect all major wagons have been on Town so far). Hieirama, Lelandra, and Pistachion are the ones that I most want to watch.

[mykonian]

and the claim makes less sense from a Mafia player than from a Town player

"hey I'm pr"
"why are you still alive"
"guess they didn't want to shoot a bp"

where's the downside for scum exactly?

Beyond that, he sets it up badly, his actual claim is followed up by feigning that he doesn't care if he's lynched or not.


I'd be so incredibly happy if we got 2 stories out of this game. One that it's a policy lynch, and two that that claim was any good.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Do you believe being defensive is a trait reserved exclusively for scum?

Can you explain what makes you think I'm scum?

[Dierfire]

The claim wasn't good. It was so inappropriate that, as a matter of probability, I'm considering it more likely to come from Town.

[Dierfire]

Do you believe being defensive is a trait reserved exclusively for scum?

Can you explain what makes you think I'm scum?

Is this for me? Doesn't matter--I'll answer it anyway.
I do not believe that being defensive is a trait that belongs definitively to Mafia players.
Other than your sudden inability to read me, I guess that the best evidence would be your vote on Garmr and your subsequent move off when the wagon got stuck.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, but you're using defensiveness as a reason for reading Hieirama as scum. How does that work?

Why would I move off of Garmr as scum?

[Dierfire]

For now, my vote will go somewhere completely different...
VOTE: Hieirama
The wording in some of his posts just has a feel of uneasy scum (constantly insisting on whether his play is scummy or not, worrying too much about not doing enough) - I mainly think of these lines:

I made that readlist, you're right, to contribute a little bit more than a one-liner. I'm not sure how that's scum-oriented?

Scum can casually give opinions on recent events too, though, its not just a Town thing.

-snip-

Kind of. I'll restate it: "I'll attempt to form an analysis even though I don't fully get what's going on, because it's much better than lurking around."

I'd like to put a bit more pressure on him, hence my vote.

I totally skipped past this post lol.

Hmm, I meant to question why my actions seemed scummy, not insist I wasn't.
I get the second part. I do want contribute as much as possible.

Look at this post for reference. Why does Hieirama need to respond to Felissan here? Wouldn't it be better to go do something active, rather than responding to an old vote?
To me, Hieirama seems very concerned with the way that the other players read Hieirama.

[Dierfire]

Why would I move off of Garmr as scum?

The wagon wasn't moving. If you're Mafia, then I guess that you wanted to simulate activity rather than sitting on a stuck wagon?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

With regards to Hieirama - Why is it scum concern over town concern?

With regards to myself - are you implying that everyone who is left on the Garmr wagon is town and everyone who jumped off is scum?

[Dierfire]

1. I was going to say that Hieirama seemed nervous and overly preoccupied with responding to everyone that mentioned Hieirama. However, I just noticed that Hieirama has responded somewhat selectively to being mentioned. Let's see...89 features responses to Herrcombs, Mykonian, and DWL. There's a response to Keyser and to me in 168. Hieirama does address some questions from you in 252, but neglects to respond to Lalendra's 259. I'm not really sure what to make of that.

2. No, see, that sounds like something crazy that someone trying to misrepresent my read would say.

[Dierfire]

By the way, who is still on the Garmr wagon? It's been a while since I've seen the votes counted.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If that's not what you're implying then I fail to see how you can justify your scum read on me based on the reasoning that I got off the Garmr wagon. Can you clarify for me?

A VC would be really good.

[Dierfire]

If that's not what you're implying then I fail to see how you can justify your scum read on me based on the reasoning that I got off the Garmr wagon. Can you clarify for me?

I see the problem. I collapsed a few things into this:

Other than your sudden inability to read me, I guess that the best evidence would be your vote on Garmr and your subsequent move off when the wagon got stuck.

It's not the fact that you removed the vote that would make me suspicious, it was the mechanism.

You said these things:

Tbh, I'm kind of just hoping the vig shoots you so we can find out what's going on.

I think I want to lynch inside of Pistachion, Dier and Felissan.

UNVOTE:

Because I felt like I was borderline policy-lynching him. His claim will sort itself out at some point, if not, we can look at it another time.

I also disliked some of the jumps onto his wagon and I want to have a look at the many people who are flying under the radar.

I don't know - I just got cold feet about the whole thing. You're right, the claim doesn't make sense - but I also believe Garmr is capable of a much better fake-claim if he were scum.

In the first one, the sentiment feels wrong (why should a Vig shoot a player that you wouldn't lynch?); in the next two, the timing is wrong with the lynch targets that you outlined (Pistachion voted for Garmr immediately after you did, and neither Felissan nor I voted for Garmr at all) For the last two, those thoughts on the claim are coming a bit late.

I don't know. I was going to say that I was still more suspicious of those other players, but now I'm wondering whether I can talk myself into this.

[Dwlee99]

@Haschel

Now this is interesting. Herr calls out Dwlee for manipulating mykonian's words, but then votes for mykonian for tone reasons. Don't like this one bit.
---SNIP---
Alright, Townreads are mykonian, implosion, Garmr, and Herrcombs.

Unvote: Herrcombs

How did you settle on reading Herrcombs as Town?

Starting at 84 his posts get much better in his interaction with myko. I also like his reaction to the Garmr situation.

PEdit:

I would still prefer to lynch Garmr but I would not be opposed to Dier as a compromise lynch, because yes, I am undecided and would be interested to see how he reacts.

Did I just read that right? I don't see how you would agree with a lynch on someone you don't have an opinion on...

I want to put pressure on him to get information. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Then don't vote for him, pressure him.

Vote: Lalendra

This vote is bad because there is no reason to think Lalendra is scum from that post. In my eyes the main way you pressure for reads is by voting them (something that haschel doesn't agree on apparently) because he says "Then don't vote for him, pressure him". Haschel seems to think that Lalendra being interested in a Dier wagon for information is not the proper way too go about it. (even though that is the point of wagons, correct?) Even if what Haschel pointed out is a scum tell it should be a FoS and isn't deserving a vote.

and the claim makes less sense from a Mafia player than from a Town player

"hey I'm pr"
"why are you still alive"
"guess they didn't want to shoot a bp"

where's the downside for scum exactly?

Beyond that, he sets it up badly, his actual claim is followed up by feigning that he doesn't care if he's lynched or not.


I'd be so incredibly happy if we got 2 stories out of this game. One that it's a policy lynch, and two that that claim was any good.

Doesn't the beginning of this post completely reflect what I was saying in one of mine? I remember someone saying that there is no reason for a scum to claim BP and I used this exact reasoning to explain why scum would claim BP.

[Hieirama]

I feel like our deadline is close.
Really could use a VC.

1. I was going to say that Hieirama seemed nervous and overly preoccupied with responding to everyone that mentioned Hieirama. However, I just noticed that Hieirama has responded somewhat selectively to being mentioned. Let's see...89 features responses to Herrcombs, Mykonian, and DWL. There's a response to Keyser and to me in 168. Hieirama does address some questions from you in 252, but neglects to respond to Lalendra's 259. I'm not really sure what to make of that.

Here I go again, responding selectively.
I'm not the best when it comes to jumping into conversations. I read the game and everything, but usually I have no strong opinions or suspicions on anything. ((Maybe I'll share some opinions later anyway? Just for the record.)) It's much easier to reply if addressed.

Mm, I don't have much to say about that post. I dislike the noob label, but it's true that I'm new to Mafia. OTL

[Dierfire]

Our deadline is still a week out.
Where's your vote now, and to where were you thinking of moving it?

[Keyser Söze]

Page 9, 10.

I've definitely got a scum read on Garmr now

,

but I'll put it on the back burner for now

- I'll wait for it to be really blatant before wanting him dead, we wouldn't want to lose a legit PR if it turns out we're wrong, even if it's just a BP.

If you have a scum-read on a player why would you back off? Gamr had already full-roleclaimed, so they'd be no risk of an early roleclaim. Pressure is good, expecially if you've "definitely got a scum read" on Gamr. But based on the second part of your sentence it sounds like you're doubting your own scum-read (so why 'put it on the back burner now'?).

Felissan:

"my vote will go somewhere completely different"

...Felissan then adds a 'pressure vote' on Hieirama.

I don't believe Felissan's 'definite' scum read of Gamr

.

I use "policy lynch" incorrectly maybe? The way I see it is: This player's posts don't seem to have scum Motivation, but they're being toxic to the Town wincon. They're the best lynch until someone proves to be genuinely scummy.

At this stage it is always best to push/vote/lynch who you think is scum. A policy lynch is easy for both town

and scum

to support - thus, we don't gain as much information on the wagon (i.e we'd gain more from players actively pressing their scum-reads (with reasons)).
Scum don't actively try to be 'toxic to the Town wincon' - 9 times out 10 they are bad-town.

If Garmr is Town then I have a strong feeling that the wagon was

scum-driven

, mainly because if how petty the original reason was. Could be

three Mafia

, could be

one

.

Attach some names to this 'analysis'.

[herrcombs]

Holy crap, I've got a lot of catching up to do. I'll do it page-by-page and spoiler it, so I don't clutter the thread with a massive wall. I'll pull questions out and post them after the spoilers. UNVOTE:

Spoiler: page 9

I don't like DWL's post 200. Why spend so much time summarizing someone's ISO without further analysis? I imagine the summary must have taken time to compile, and if you're not going to analyze the individual posts, why bother wasting your time like that? This post reads scummy to me.

I agree with Soze's bold text in 205.

Lalendra's 211 seems really weird. Why ask someone else what they want you to talk about? It seems like a really flaccid question and it's not aimed at actively scumhunting. However, her 215 indicates that she is an anti-fluff player. I see this as a townie quality.

I don't like how Felissan voted on Hieirama in 224 without asking any further questions to better ascertain her alignment (if the vote is indeed to "put a bit more pressure on him").

Spoiler: page 10

Hiei's 227: "Even if you're actually BP it was a really anti-town move." This line pings my gut, but I'm not really sure why. Especially since she says later in the post that she thinks myko is scum pushing the wagon on Garmr starting from a bad argument.

Dier's 231: He says "Garmr claimed BP. I dislike this." but what he said after that doesn't follow. "I don't want to say that it's so obviously a bad idea for a Town player that it could only come from a Town player, but..." seems like fence sitting, why not give an opinion one way or another which way you view?

DWL's 234: Noted that DWL continues to post quote walls with things that aren't directly relevant to the point he's trying to make. Post 241 indicates that it's intentional. Honestly, it seems like a really passive aggressive response to the short back-and-forth we had earlier. (Posts 40, 44, 56, 68)

Spoiler: page 11

DWL's 250: Not sure why he unvoted Garmr here? I guess it looks townie because he's pushing on different people, but it looks like the vote on Lalendra is for lurking...

Hiei's 252: Pretty blatant defense of DWL. Although I did brush over Haschel's catchup post, this seems like a really weird defense to make. It doesn't even really make that much sense. So being sarcastic is an excuse for misrepping someone else's post? Or it wasn't a misrep because DWL was trying to dispute myko's claim that "Garmr... called someone town"? (But that wasn't what DWL was saying at all.) It looks to me like Hiei is just missing the point, and as a result, the defense looks really bad.

255-258 is super weird. I'm having a really tough time reading DWL. On the one hand, admitting to voting for lurking the way DWL did seems more likely to come from town, but DWL's blatant nonsequitur response to Lalendra pings me something fierce.

Lalendra's 259 looks scummy to me. Seems like a lot of devotion is given, questions asked, about posts dating way back to RVS. How is that helpful in finding scum? Plus, after emphasizing earlier that you are anti-fluff, why dig back to page 1-2 stuff? Is that really the best way to build a strong case on someone?

After reading implosions's posts up through 263, I get a pretty good feeling he's town.

DWL's 265: aaand he's back on garmr after a weak push on Lalendra... Maybe it's just a playstyle thing, but so many of DWL's posts ping me as scummy. If it's true what others are saying, that he's an easy mislynch target, then I need to be really careful at this point not to tunnel and not leave myself prone to confirmation bias.

Garmr's 269: I agree with his points against Lalendra. Plus, the point he gave at the end of his 278.

Spoiler: page 12

DWL's 282: Why does DWL unvote here? According to his 284, it's because "Garmr's posts are townie," but it appears that DWL wasn't even aware why he was on Garmr's wagon to begin with. Was it a wagon on a scummy player? Was it a PL? Seems like a mix of both, and to me, it shows that DWL lacked conviction on the Garmr wagon and was just waiting to see whether there'd be enough popular support to keep it rolling.

But DWL's 286 screams town to me. It seems like he's open to looking at new evidence and building a claim around it, rather than vice versa. It's definitely possible that his early stubbornness and odd voting patterns were town and not scum, and there seems to be some sort of logical thought progression going on there.

More shit happening with Garmr... Not sure what to think of the points made to the effect that BP is the easiest scum fakeclaim. I get that it's a passive role that doesn't actively produce information, but I don't understand why BBT needs to know how many shots Garmr can take? I haven't been on this site enough to agree or disagree with BBT's 290. Before we consolidate on a lynch, I'll have to read carefully through Garmr to see whether there is actually scumminess there, or if people are just banking on the fact that he's fakeclaiming BP.

Spoiler: page 13

I like how BBT caught up with the game, and I'm curious why Lalendra isn't in his lynchlist, given his comments against her. Her post 312 is a little strange -- BBT asked her whether she'd be able to read Dier better with some pressure on his wagon, and she replied "I would not be opposed to Dier as a compromise lynch." Did she mean wagon here, and not lynch? (NVM, she clarified it in 315)

Looking at BBT's top 3, I have no idea if I'd lynch anyone in there. In my catchup, nothing really stood out to me from those three players, but then again, my head is swimming from everything I've just read, so I might have to go back later and scour through some ISOs. That being said, I think I'd be comfortable pushing more on Dier.

Spoiler: page 14

Dier's 325: Yeahh, I had the same question actually. Why not Lalendra?

Haschel's 334: Do you think that voting someone and pressuring someone are mutually exclusive? Do you think that Lalendra voting Dier to get more information is scum-indicative?

I don't like pistachi0n too much at this point. He's not pushing on anyone, and a LOT has happened since Garmr's roleclaim. Plus, several posts in his ISO look like they're just little jabs, interactions with people that do not promote discussion that will lead to alignment-indicative results.

BBT's 337 answered my question about a Lalendra lynch...

Spoiler: page 15

Dier's interaction with BBT here looks a bit like appeasing... And the repeated sarcasm (329, 355) doesn't look natural to me.

357 Oooh, a readlist. Questions: What makes you think DWL is town? What's the "English-English translator" think you mentioned in your read of me? Why does your read on Lelandra need to be "referenced against Hieirama's activity?"

This back and forth between Dier and BBT is hard to read... I'm honestly going to need to reread it several more times in context before I come to any conclusions.

Ok, the questions I still have:

@ DWL's 282: Why did you unvote Garmr there? Did you ever consider the Garmr wagon to be in part due to PL, because Garmr was acting against the interests of town? What did you mean by your phrase, "There would be no reason for a policy lynch on Garmr with how they've been playing"?

@ Haschel's 334: Do you think that voting someone and pressuring someone are mutually exclusive? Do you think that Lalendra voting Dier to get more information is scum-indicative?

@ Dier's readlist in 357: What makes you think DWL is town? What's the "English-English translator" think you mentioned in your read of me? Why does your read on Lelandra need to be "referenced against Hieirama's activity?"

and I'm going to VOTE: pistachi0n.

In your past few posts, it looks like you're not really trying to engage in fruitful discussion. I want to see some reads from you or something that looks like you're trying to figure out the game.