[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Cabd]

yes.... but scum aren't told they are scum

...Then that's a bastard game and has no business being anywhere near an open setup?

[Cabd]

If scum doesn't know they're scum, and town does not know they're town, then there's not even a game, there's nothing to even look for...

[Cabd]

It's not even mafia anymore

[Cabd]

That seems way too complicated for an open, and very swingy.

[Cabd]

I love you two for attempting to kill town oneshot bp, i really do.

[Cabd]

Thinking out loud, I would totally claim doctor D1 if I was given the role. I think it would be the proper move (after baiting a wagon on you).

Given which role?

[Cabd]

Change town RB into hider?

Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon	Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Doctor	Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Rolecop	Town Tracker	Town Hider

[Cabd]

Maybe a BP?

Somebody just failed the "whole point of this discussion" exam.

[Cabd]

I like failing exams.

#StillNotUnderstandingWhyBPIsBad

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30105

[Cabd]

I'd like to make the gate mechanic that Vox designed in Paradox Prime into an open setup. Here's my starting point:

13 players
4 goons-
9 Vanilla Town

Night zero, scum sets a timeline ended in a LYLO scenario of any size they wish using only living players. (5/4, 4/3, 3/2, 2/1)

The first 24 hours of each day, players vote to send somebody to the future. The player chosen by this process is given via PM the names in the lylo chosen by scum. The day then plays out as normal.

In the event of a scum lynch, the person that voted last for that player, excluding the lynchee, gets to make the timeline instead. (Town timelines created in this way may or may not be a lylo scenario) Scum must either nokill, or kill a player slated to be dead before the timeline given by the last voter. In the event of a town lynch, scum makes a new lylo scenario same as night zero, and can kill anyone not slated to be alive in their new lylo scenario, or choose to no kill.



Alternate future travel choice ideas.
Self-nomination on thread, mod randomizes from names and chooses one.
Privte nomination via PM.

[Cabd]

For the record, in the above, the flip happens but the player does not die, in the initial lylo.

[Cabd]

So it starts in lylo and confirms a player as town/scum?

The initial lylo of three players plays out until lynch, yes. The person lynched is flipped, and the day reverts to everyone being alive. Hence, it is actually a viable strategy as scum to get townies to crossvote, and NOT instahammer, setting up the day two lynch on the other townie. Every 3 days, a scum player is confirmed as scum, so scum strategy is for the long haul, not day to day.

[Cabd]

Every 3 days, a scum player is confirmed as scum

Not quite, not if scum gets the Gate and lies about the LyLo.

Hilarity

pain ensues.

This is true AND arguably an upside to the setup, can't 120% rely upon timelines spoonfeeding you scum lists.

[Cabd]

It would be something that Vi or another "more experienced" mod would probably want to run for the initial go.

BTW calling it Future Fail after the Mafia Achievement on the wiki.

[Cabd]

Is there anyway we could simplify the setup? Like, the first one I see is that in the initial LyLo, it should probably just be told by the mod and everyone can vote. One of my biggest problems with ParadoxPrime was that, after the game began, we still had to wait a week to actually do stuff.

This is a valid point, actually. Perhaps limiting the living three to voting, while the others are welcome to post? Or just using the quicktopic like vox did.

[Cabd]

No point in watcher being 2-shot, really.

[Cabd]

Issue is, mafia has to give up TWO scum for town mislynching town sooner or later, in your scenario.
A B C D scumteam

Day one lylo: A T T
Lynch T, kill other T

Day two lylo: A B T
Lynch T, now A and B are confoscum.

[Cabd]

You're essentially creating a modified rarefaction there, then.

The whole point of the gate mechanic is to reward town/scum for poloticking the gate in the first place.

[Cabd]

Universal backup replacing one shot BP sounds great.

[Cabd]

I do like replacing the BP with a backup, but that doesn't fix the problem I was aiming for-- namely, that the town can't lose if the Mafia Roleblocker dies D1.

I personally like the JK/doc interaction because they can't protect each other, and you can't have the JK claim and get all jaily while the doc waits in the shadows with a scalpel. Also, in row 1, Doc is a plausible fakeclaim for scum after the JK claims, so that might impact column 1 as well.

Issue with JK/Doc is... welll. some games go on to like day one billion.

[Cabd]

Roleblocker/Jailkeeper really shouldn't be happening in this setup, because how do you resolve cross-blocks?

Already been stated that scum PR gets the priority block.

[Cabd]

C feels a tiiiny bit townsided, molla.

[Cabd]

One shot ninja would be sufficient enough to put uncertainty into the trackers result of no visit.

[Cabd]

Llama can we get feedback on Vi's setup proposal?

[Cabd]

Also it's perpetual MYLO not LYLO

[Cabd]

Discussed the above mechanic with Cabd further.

*15 players, 11 Town and 4 scum.
*Night 0: The scum create a timeline of player deaths. They select two players to die per Day/Night cycle. The timeline must end in a viable LyLo (of any size).
*As long as the timeline is followed, the scum cannot deviate from it with their NK. They cannot No Kill as that defeats the purpose.
*If the timeline is broken (by lynch), then:
**If the lynchee was Town, the scum can create a new timeline.
**If the lynchee was scum, the hammering player (or the next player behind in the event of a self-hammer) creates a new timeline ending in a valid LyLo. If the person controlling the timeline is Town, their timeline can end with any number of players that would be in a valid LyLo if they were scum, though the players they put in their endgame do not have to constitute a valid LyLo (how would they know?). Only living players can be put in this timeline; dead players stay dead as they are.

*Prior to the Day start, the moderator chooses a number between 1 and {# players/2, rounded down}.
*At any time during the Day, up to {# players/2, rounded down} players may post inthread

Gate to the Future

. The _th player to do so ( _ being the number the moderator chose) will receive the LyLo created in this timeline privately. A player may only try to Gate once per Day.

*The game begins with a single lynch in the initial scum-created LyLo. All other players may watch but not post inthread. After the lynch, there is a flip and then the real Day 1 begins.

---

Balance concerns:
*All vanilla
*Scum getting the Gate = mass hilarity?

Addition to this: Each player may only use a gate once. If you've used the gate before, you cannot bid again on it.

[Cabd]

Listen up, person. This is a setup. It's based on the originally Belgian TV show

The Mole

.

Mole Mafia

16 Vanilla Townies
2 Moles

Mechanics

Every night and pre-game, the moles answer a list of questions (some of them are kind of personal), such as "How long are you?" The townies have to answer these questions, rephrased to "How long is the mole?", the night after. The last question is always "Who is the mole?"

Every townie gets assigned a penalty, based on how far their guesses are from the answers of the moles. If both moles are alive, the penalty is calculated for both of them. The best one is the final penalty. Correctly answering one half of the questions for one mole and the other half for the other mole results in a higher penalty than giving a correct answer to 60% of the questions for one mole and 0% for another.

The townie with the highest final penalty dies. This death is indistinguishable from the mole's nightkill. Even the dead people don't know how they've been killed until after the game. But here's the kicker: unlike the nightkilled townie, the worst guesser immediately loses. The moles can double kill once. The townie with the highest penalty doesn't die that night, so the kill pattern is the same as every other night to the townies. This should make it harder for the townies to draw information from the nightkills.

If the moles win, all townies lose equally. If town wins, all townies win except for the ones that died as a result of having the highest penalty.

That's it, person. Now give me those opinions. Please.

Belongs in mishmash not really a true mafia game.

[Cabd]

From the wiki:

Roles which are explicitly Normal include:
Vanilla Townie, Sane Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Innocent Child, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Watcher, Gunsmith, Miller, Bodyguard, Role Cop, Doublevoter, Hider, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Jack of All Trades, Serial Killer, Mafia Encryptor, Mafia Strongman, Mafia Goon, Mafia Traitor, Mafia Godfather, Mafia-aligned or SK-aligned versions of above roles
Modifiers which are explicitly Normal include:
Even/Odd Night, Non-Consecutive Night, X-Shot, Bulletproof, Neighbor, Compulsive, Macho, Weak, Backup (with or without primary role present)

If it's not on this list, it's non-normal by default.

[Cabd]

You'd have to check with tierce and the normal review board, but making it an arsonist as an SK should be allowable.

[Cabd]

2 two-player Vanilla factions whose wincon is to see the other dead (they can't NK, and must become Survivor factions once one beats the other),

Those would be lyncher factions, explicitly non normal.

[Cabd]

Normals allow for one SK, 1 scum faction, and the town. No multiball.

[Cabd]

The game should have at least one Mafia or Werewolf group (of at least two members). A second anti-town group can be given a separate Mafia family name, or can be a Werewolf group. There should be no more than two mafia/werewolf factions, and no more than one Serial Killer.

I stand corrected. More than two is bad though.

[Cabd]

"normal" is just majority opinion, and it changes all the time

This is incorrect. There's a normal review board here.

As for your open setup question... Possible, but most players here are adverse to that type of setup/role.

[Cabd]

I like the thought of three Jailkeepers and 2 Roleblockers...

That is an utter clusterfuck of blocking and makes the game about getting lucky with night results more than effective day play, and I would never in a billion years sign up for it.

[Cabd]

No. It could be open but not normal.

Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Non-Sane Cop,

Blank Vig, Non-Sane or Quack Doctor, Janitor, Survivor, Lyncher, Cultist, Jester, Mafia Mason, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector, Framer.

[Cabd]

2 1-shot cops
1 insane 1-shot cop
1 psychologist (sane)
3 vanilla townie (sane)
1 vanilla townie (insane)
2 mafia goons (sane)
1 mafia goon (insane)

8T v 3S with questionable sanity is kinda iffy.

[Cabd]

Vi did a large theme setup kind of like that, where "angels" of both alignments sent gifts to their respective teams. You might want to read that game to see how it went and the player's reception to it.

[Cabd]

15-3-3 sounds exciting, actually. I'd play in that. Good idea there.

Go look at xenoblade mafia, in completed large themes. It was 16/3/3 and went down to 3-man LYLO, with power roles on both sides, so you may want to shift from there.

[Cabd]

Mafia bodyguard is a bad idea because in this setup it serves no use? Like you'd be better off making it a fruit vendor or something?

As mafia bodyguard i'd no action every night.

[Cabd]

that sounds like scumhunters speed 8p

[Cabd]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... s_Speed_8p

[Cabd]

It forces scum to play like a cop that tries to get his guilty lynched without having to claim it?

[Cabd]

That seams like the SK is at a disadvantage now. Three potential ways for his kill to be blocked in a night.

[Cabd]

More easily worked scenario is to RNG and give the eavesdropper one post made in the qt that night randomly (with names stripped) to allow for masons and mafia to counter-measure each other with fakeouts.

[Cabd]

Force everyone to target the player above them on the player list; and 1 scum is pretty dead day two.

[Cabd]

Unless the three goons are all next to each other in the list, tracking somebody to "nowhere" night one is a guilty. So AT LEAST one scum player confirmed.

[Cabd]

Hint: you can fix this by giving scum 1-shot tracker ability too.

[Cabd]

Just make them vengeful mafia goons; easier that way.

[Cabd]

See the user title; read the lyrics, get back to me.

[Cabd]

literally none of those are playable, so uh good job?

[Cabd]

So scum has to guess from all players, living OR dead, and can't POE with night kills at all?

[Cabd]

I guess that would work?

[Cabd]

From my understanding of the rules it looks like town might win a 1-1 endgame?

[Cabd]

If the person posts before the mod sees it then the kill doesn't go through.

This becomes a game of outplaying the mod and is terrible and arbitrary

[Cabd]

Venge-PGO-izers

[Cabd]

I insist you flavor it like SPECTRE's meeting room. Including the lightning rod chair of doom.

[Cabd]

Anarchy

16 player

Mafia Vigilante
Mafia Arsonist
Mafia Poisoner

Bulletproof Doctor
Poisonproof Poison-Doctor
Fireproof Fire Fighter
Tracker
Fruit Vendor
8 VT's

• Doctor only stops vigilante kills.
  
• Poison-Doctor and fire fighter can also stop the kill on the night of the death.
  
• Poison kills the night after it is given.
  
• Arsonist can set alight all players as many time per game as he wants but can't douse on the same night.
  
• Players aren't informed that they are doused/poisoned.
  
• Mafia have no faction kill.

Debating wether to make the immunities x-shot.

This could be interesting but I think it may be a little better if you just make all kills happen overnight (just flavored) because there is really no good reason for scum to use anything but "vig" kill. Just basically three mafia members and a doctor that protects against each kill type instead.

Fruit Vendor is just a named townie, seems out of place. Tracker is strong, but fine.

Penguin_Alien's "one and done" micro worked sort of like this but as oneshots.