[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Bicephalous Bob]

I don't quite understand the first segment of your post...

The second part I don't quite see eye-to-eye on, either.

For example, if three mafia are lynched and three townies are killed on the first three days, the last member could claim scum because he knows the other factions lose if they lynch him.

[Wake1]

I don't quite understand the first segment of your post...

The second part I don't quite see eye-to-eye on, either.

For example, if three mafia are lynched and three townies are killed on the first three days, the last member could claim scum because he knows the other factions lose if they lynch him.

Hm... Still not sure I understand...

It's very unlikely for 3 of 4 Mafiasos to be lynched in the first 3 Days.

OH, I think I get it. Because the factions aren't told to kill the Mafia, and there aren't enough Townies to nab it, the Scum could safely claim.

Well then, let's fix that. We'll put it in each faction's wincon to kill Scum, and/or in each Scum's wincon to kill the SK, Town, and factions. Thanks for spotting that! That could have sucked if I missed that and hosted it.

[yessiree]

Hi all, is Arsonist considered Normal?

[Cabd]

From the wiki:

Roles which are explicitly Normal include:
Vanilla Townie, Sane Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Innocent Child, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Watcher, Gunsmith, Miller, Bodyguard, Role Cop, Doublevoter, Hider, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Jack of All Trades, Serial Killer, Mafia Encryptor, Mafia Strongman, Mafia Goon, Mafia Traitor, Mafia Godfather, Mafia-aligned or SK-aligned versions of above roles
Modifiers which are explicitly Normal include:
Even/Odd Night, Non-Consecutive Night, X-Shot, Bulletproof, Neighbor, Compulsive, Macho, Weak, Backup (with or without primary role present)

If it's not on this list, it's non-normal by default.

[yessiree]

alright, thanks

[Alduskkel]

The same page also says:

New/variant roles may be included in limited number (no more than 1 in a Mini, 2 in a Large), and should be based on the usual role mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Blocking, Voting, Enabling and Communication.

[yessiree]

so a 13p game with one arsonist as the only neutral killing role would be considered Normal variant?

[Cabd]

You'd have to check with tierce and the normal review board, but making it an arsonist as an SK should be allowable.

[N]

It's not explicitly banned, so it can't hurt to try it. But just be aware that you may have to change it. (Especially now you've posted about it publicly here.)

[Faraday]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=24640 <--- arsonist in a m. normal

[Wake1]

Would it be allowed to have neutral factions with specific win conditions in Normal/Open games?

Say, you've got a Mountainous game with 21 players. 2 Mafia Goons, 2 two-player Vanilla factions whose wincon is to see the other dead (they can't NK, and must become Survivor factions once one beats the other), and the rest Vanilla Townies.

Would that be OK? I don't want complex roles... Just an added layer or two to the discussions.

[N]

Would it be allowed to have neutral factions with specific win conditions in Normal/Open games?

Say, you've got a Mountainous game with 21 players. 2 Mafia Goons, 2 two-player Vanilla factions whose wincon is to see the other dead (they can't NK, and must become Survivor factions once one beats the other), and the rest Vanilla Townies.

Would that be OK? I don't want complex roles... Just an added layer or two to the discussions.

Not in a normal, no. Opens don't have any rules governing what sort of roles are in them, just that they're balanced.

[Cabd]

2 two-player Vanilla factions whose wincon is to see the other dead (they can't NK, and must become Survivor factions once one beats the other),

Those would be lyncher factions, explicitly non normal.

[Wake1]

Well, that stinks a bit.

Would the same hold true with four 2-player Scum factions, with enough PRs to balance it out? I have some specific ideas to do so.

[Cabd]

Normals allow for one SK, 1 scum faction, and the town. No multiball.

[N]

Normals allow for one SK, 1 scum faction, and the town. No multiball.

This is untrue. I think 4 scum factions would be pushing it, though.

[N]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

[Cabd]

The game should have at least one Mafia or Werewolf group (of at least two members). A second anti-town group can be given a separate Mafia family name, or can be a Werewolf group. There should be no more than two mafia/werewolf factions, and no more than one Serial Killer.

I stand corrected. More than two is bad though.

[Wake1]

The problem is that "normal" is just majority opinion, and it changes all the time. Like clothing over the course of 100 years.

The page N linked mentioned that some of these restrictions don't apply in Open (and one other) Setup, and that it's still under construction.

If that is true, is it possible or even plausible that a big Vanilla Open game could have two Neutral factions in the future?

[Cabd]

"normal" is just majority opinion, and it changes all the time

This is incorrect. There's a normal review board here.

As for your open setup question... Possible, but most players here are adverse to that type of setup/role.

[Wake1]

"Normal" is based on the opinion of the majority or, in this case, a board. The board may or may not be affected by general consensus, but if so, it can indeed be changed over time.

Why is it so adverse? Even in a Vanilla game where the Neutral factions cannot kill... and everyone already knows they're there... all it serves is to add another dimension to Day-time discussion. Their wincon may also include killing Scum, too. Basically, two warring VT factions.

[Mr. Flay]

Because warring Town Factions isn't "Normal". That's a definite mutation of the game, as is a non-majority "Town".

[Tierce]

"Normal" is based on the opinion of the majority or, in this case, a board. The board may or may not be affected by general consensus, but if so, it can indeed be changed over time.

Why is it so adverse? Even in a Vanilla game where the Neutral factions cannot kill... and everyone already knows they're there... all it serves is to add another dimension to Day-time discussion. Their wincon may also include killing Scum, too. Basically, two warring VT factions.

Because it breaks the definition of a traditional Mafia game. It makes for a very different experience than a game with vanilla majority, a handful of PRs, and one or two non-Town powers/groups.

Either way, this is not the place to argue Normalcy. You are always welcome to PM me or create a thread to discuss the Normal guidelines; this thread is for discussing Open setups.

[Wake1]

Alright. Thanks, guys.

I do have a new idea for an Open 21-player game. Your thoughts on it would be awesome.

x1Town Cop
x1 Town Doc
x1 Town Jailkeeper
x1 Town Watcher
x10 VT
x1 Serial Killer (Investigation and NK immune)
x1 Mafia A Goon
x1Mafia A Roleblocker
x1Mafia A Jailkeeper
x1 Mafia B Goon
x1 Mafia B Roleblocker
x1 Mafia B Jailkeeper

I like it. Gives more time for both Scum teams to hunt the other, and the sole SK is a lone badass. Didn't put a Tracker in because, even though it's weak, it can be pretty strong at times. I like the thought of three Jailkeepers and 2 Roleblockers... it adds in more depth and increases game time. Also, Scum could accidentally protect Townies from NKs.

Whatcha think?

[Cabd]

I like the thought of three Jailkeepers and 2 Roleblockers...

That is an utter clusterfuck of blocking and makes the game about getting lucky with night results more than effective day play, and I would never in a billion years sign up for it.