[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Rob14]

Godfather is an extremely standard and normal role. It's not lying to a player, especially when you open up the setup so they KNOW it's a possibility. It means they have to analyze their results with what they know from day-play.

A watcher is super powerful. They give incredible incentive for the mafia NOT to kill someone who's incredibly town and seen as such by a lot of people in the game, which is a massive power for the town. What do you think is massively over-powered for scum about it?

B: Originally, Amrun pushed for a cop to not be included in Matrix6B at all. The reasoning behind that is that newbie setups should emphasize day play, which we both agree on, and a Cop is the top-of-the-ladder of night-play heavy roles. The alternative was the Godfather. I wouldn't be horribly opposed to turning the Godfather into a RoleCop, though, with the understanding that it affects Setup #1.

C: The alternative to Doc/Macho Watcher/Roleblocker is to take the Macho modifier off the Macho Watcher and change the Doctor to a lesser protective role. We considered this, but the only role we could think of that would balance and have the intended effects would be a Bodyguard, which we both agreed has no place in a newbie setup. A successful protect would lead to death, which would be bitter sweet for someone playing their first game. Does anyone have any other alternatives we may have missed?

[Cheery Dog]

I don't likwithe either setup B or C. (In fact I think GF/Cop is worse than 2 goons/cop)

I agree with this and also want to add setup 3 into the horrible category.

[Rob14]

Again, why? I'm going to need more specifics than "I vaguely dislike this setup." Especially when you just added a setup which was one of the ones I considered to be least controversial.

[JasonWazza]

Godfather is an extremely standard and normal role. It's not lying to a player, especially when you open up the setup so they KNOW it's a possibility. It means they have to analyze their results with what they know from day-play.

A watcher is super powerful. They give incredible incentive for the mafia NOT to kill someone who's incredibly town and seen as such by a lot of people in the game, which is a massive power for the town. What do you think is massively over-powered for scum about it?

B: Originally, Amrun pushed for a cop to not be included in Matrix6B at all. The reasoning behind that is that newbie setups should emphasize day play, which we both agree on, and a Cop is the top-of-the-ladder of night-play heavy roles. The alternative was the Godfather. I wouldn't be horribly opposed to turning the Godfather into a RoleCop, though, with the understanding that it affects Setup #1.

C: The alternative to Doc/Macho Watcher/Roleblocker is to take the Macho modifier off the Macho Watcher and change the Doctor to a lesser protective role. We considered this, but the only role we could think of that would balance and have the intended effects would be a Bodyguard, which we both agreed has no place in a newbie setup. A successful protect would lead to death, which would be bitter sweet for someone playing their first game. Does anyone have any other alternatives we may have missed?

Godfather

IS

Lying to a player, whether standard or not, 1-shot BP is also standardish (about as standard as Godfather i think) So effectively your changing the liar to being the mod.

A. Yes watcher is super powerful, but if he claims at all he is dead, and if he is found at all he is dead, and then doctor's play is to attempt to not protect a Watcher.

B. I wouldn't mind seeing Godfather be a Rolecop instead, it moves away from the Cop innos basically being useless.

C. Personally i would say body guard is alright

But

Maybe make it a 1-shot doctor?

[Cheery Dog]

Again, why? I'm going to need more specifics than "I vaguely dislike this setup." Especially when you just added a setup which was one of the ones I considered to be least controversial.

For the same reason 2of4's only town power is the doctor was bad.
Yes it gets you a confirmed scum rather than a 99% confirmed town by being on the night kill, but the premise still feels the same to me.

[JasonWazza]

3 is the same as C really, except in C you do have a doctor, but he just has to sit by well you get shot.

[JasonWazza]

Another problem i see is the fact that, Mafia basically have full knowledge of the setup from the start.

[N]

So your going to lie to players rather then have it beneficial for players to lie?

Cop with a Lied about innocent is just as bad as encouraging players to lie.

Town Macho watcher with a Mafia Roleblocker and Town Doctor is fucking over powered for scum

What your basically doing is making what is slightly town sided, into massively scum sided.

There's no need to be so aggressive about this.

[Rob14]

Another problem i see is the fact that, Mafia basically have full knowledge of the setup from the start.

Not true. They know that the setup is one of two potential things, which is the same as the current Matrix6 more-or-less, where the mafia either has 2 choices or 4 choices for what the setup could be, depending on whether or not they have a roleblocker.

[Roxxar]

Lets go worse case scenario for a second

Mafia kill SK N1, and poison the cop, SK kills the doctor and sets up ability 2 to kill the jack of all trades.

Town is fucked anally.

Way's to fix: Give mafia

1

1-shot ability each, they are way to overpowered.

SK, 1) is ridiculously overpowered. 2) isn't blocked by being killed? 3) is useful, 4) is wasteful, as unless the JoAT has a roleblock (P.S. what does the roleblocker have?) then simply by eliminating the mafia, this is useless.

Thanks for some actual advice. Haven't gotten any in like forever.

JoAT does have a roleblock ability. There is no Roleblocker role in specific. Should I remove a Vanilla Townie for one?

The SK's abilities are that overpowered because it's kinda hard to play as (Being alone and an all vs. one sorta deal) and I wanted to attempt to even out the playing field. That obviously didn't work because now the SK is a bit overpowered.

So any tips on how to fix the SK? The Mafia is definitely being reduced to 1 ability, and I might remove a Vanilla Townie for a Roleblocker.

[JasonWazza]

Lets go worse case scenario for a second

Mafia kill SK N1, and poison the cop, SK kills the doctor and sets up ability 2 to kill the jack of all trades.

Town is fucked anally.

Way's to fix: Give mafia

1

1-shot ability each, they are way to overpowered.

SK, 1) is ridiculously overpowered. 2) isn't blocked by being killed? 3) is useful, 4) is wasteful, as unless the JoAT has a roleblock (P.S. what does the roleblocker have?) then simply by eliminating the mafia, this is useless.

Thanks for some actual advice. Haven't gotten any in like forever.

JoAT does have a roleblock ability. There is no Roleblocker role in specific. Should I remove a Vanilla Townie for one?

The SK's abilities are that overpowered because it's kinda hard to play as (Being alone and an all vs. one sorta deal) and I wanted to attempt to even out the playing field. That obviously didn't work because now the SK is a bit overpowered.

So any tips on how to fix the SK? The Mafia is definitely being reduced to 1 ability, and I might remove a Vanilla Townie for a Roleblocker.

SK's generally have a bulletproof (whether it be 1-shot or multiple-shot) that blocks the night action side of the "One Vs All"

Let the SK have a 1-shot Strongman kill the breaches everything (i don't see the point of giving them something that goes through one of {Roleblock, Doctor} as that is basically fucking the SK anally) or a 1-shot poison that is a day delayed (but remember the poison add's a kill and always take that into account for balance.)

Then you get the SK to a point of "If your play is good enough you will win"

[Roxxar]

Can I have both the 1-shot Strongman AND the 1-shot poison? Or would that be overpowered as well?

And should I give the Serial Killer a choice between investigation-immunity and bulletproof? Or just bulletproof hands down?

[Amrun]

I actually really like turning the Mafia Godfather into a Rolecop. I think that's a better solution.

I'm pretty confused by JasonWazza saying something is scum sided and then suggesting that the power be decreased?

Yes, as soon as the Watcher reveals, he's dead. That's basically the same as any PR ever. A follow the cop situation is bad.

[Rob14]

Again, why? I'm going to need more specifics than "I vaguely dislike this setup." Especially when you just added a setup which was one of the ones I considered to be least controversial.

For the same reason 2of4's only town power is the doctor was bad.
Yes it gets you a confirmed scum rather than a 99% confirmed town by being on the night kill, but the premise still feels the same to me.

This sounds like really silly reasoning. You're basically saying that the Watcher in a setup as the only PR is bad because sometimes it will accomplish its goal.

[Amrun]

Rob, I think we should change gf to rolecop.

[N]

Tracker/Doctor vs Godfather is pretty townsided too, especially when compared to Macho Watcher/VT vs Goon.

[Amrun]

Yeah, but new change would give scum a rolecop there to combat it. That was one of my concerns but I hadn't figured out a way to fix it. RC is the obvious answer.

[Rob14]

Agreed. Change made.

[JasonWazza]

I'm pretty confused by JasonWazza saying something is scum sided and then suggesting that the power be decreased?

The suggestion i made was with the Macho being removed from the watcher.

[Amrun]

Yeah, a doc+watcher is not going to happen.

[Amrun]

I think watchers are balanced for incorrectly most of the time. They're extremely OP.

[Tamuz]

Thinking out loud, I would totally claim doctor D1 if I was given the role. I think it would be the proper move (after baiting a wagon on you).

[Cabd]

Thinking out loud, I would totally claim doctor D1 if I was given the role. I think it would be the proper move (after baiting a wagon on you).

Given which role?

[Tamuz]

Doctor.

[Amrun]

In which set up?