Kingmaker II-Game Over

[pablito]

vote: bird1111

for provoking Glork

[pablito]

I will defend Glork today to the bone. He'll have some awesome moves (whether anti-town or pro-town) within time and even if he's scum, I will not vote him/suggest his execution because he'll have such an uphill battle to fight. He's going to try to live up to last Kingmaker so he's got a tough image to beat. Either he's going to have to look like a supremely pro-town townie or a supremely pro-town assassin. He's already so visible (ditto with petroleumjelly) that it'll be easier to sniff out pro-town and anti-town vibes from them later. I'd rather focus on sniffing out the less visible players this time even if it means everyone is going to vote and suspect me.

There ya go. Feel free to vote me now

[pablito]

Dude, you can vote for both of us, it's even more fun that way!

[pablito]

heh, deja vu.

And Glork, no one's brought up a direct case against you, but before you even said a word, there was a heavy unspoken case against and for you. Until I know your alignment for certain, I'll advocate for your presence in the game simply because the pressure on you will make you work hard.

[pablito]

As for the discussion topics,

1) LoE is fine with me, but I'm all for the King exerting independent thought instead of always following the will of the town. Nonetheless, more structure is better than less structure.

2) I'd be willing to follow those suggestions.

3) No, I don't find it worthwhile to discuss size of the scum group, especially since there's enough suspicious actions for us to talk about already.

1) It’s possible that both pablito and glork are scum. The idea is that pablito is the over-eager mafia, trying to support his pal. Glork knows how to play, and therefore doesn’t want the obvious attention and association, whether he is scum or not.

Therefore, Vote: Pablito
.....
4) Also, I’m just generally suspicious of anyone who uses flattery. I forget who did it though.

So, overall, I would suggest executing pablito, and if he is confirmed scum (is their role revealed when they are killed?) i guess glork would be next. Obviously I'm not completely sure about any of them.

That is just filled with bad observations and reckless suggestions. Nonetheless, I'd be willing to discount it as newbie behavior rather than anti-town scumminess (assumption based on join date).

I agree with some of cardb0ardb0x's statements, but the whole tone of that post is assuming that immediate action needs to be taken. I can forgive that mistake from a newbie, nonetheless someone like MBL shouldn't have. MBL's comments on cardb0ardb0x just make me feel awkward.

vote: MrBuddyLee

Also in looking at cardb0ardb0x's statements. I'd like to point out that Dead Rikimaru first introduced the concept of the Pablito-Glork distancing and cardb0ardb0x was the one that took it much further. Dead Rikimaru didn't even bother vote in that post. That would be an amazing scum move if it Dead Rikimaru just wanted to plant a little seed to get further. But right now I think that the Pablito-Glork distancing was something that any lot of people could have introduced. A lot of people were probably thinking it before Dead Rikimaru got to say it, so I won't vote Dead Rikimaru, yet.

*Oh sheeesh, everyone's already commented on cbox before I got to post, so an

FOS

on those that just voted him.

[pablito]

While I wrote my last post, everyone finally commented on box before I submitted.

I admit that adding that vote to Glork was extremely scummy and that was backpedalling and succumbing to town pressure. I do not think that not voting Glork was especially scummy in the first place as I had been the more visible aggressor in the previous exchanges. But adding Glork after all of that does look scummy.

However, box isn't used to some players' playing styles and FTF mafia does require more urgency and a need to comment immediately rather than later. So I still see that cbox's post 58 seems consistent with his thoughts and does not suggest scummy behavior. The only vote on box that I find scummy so far (aside from MBL...although this is waning) is CDB's. The others seemed to justify their votes enough but CDB went so far to challenge cbox to test his theory. cbox may have had different intentions when he originally voted me. After getting flak for everything, he's forgotten what his original intent was and added the Glork vote.

So

vote: ChannelDelibird

I realize I'm taking a big risk in defending cardb0ardb0x, but at this time, I don't feel he's scummy and this quasi-wagon is very opportunistic.

And bird1111's joke votes - just so wrong and very scummy. Anyway, what prompted you to unvote Glork and I? You had decent reasons for voting us in the first place...

[pablito]

unvote: ChannelDelibird

I found that last response to be adequate.

As for cardboardbox, I would hope that he can at least own up to his actions or find a defense that doesn't involve either: "I was told to do it" or "look at post 84". So far it's very aggravating to see his defenses especially after trying to defend him.

His defenses are weak, but I still can't be convinced that he's scum.

[pablito]

Actually, MBL, I was waiting and delaying my response to you. I just wanted to see if you'd persist. And you have. Still doesn't warrant my unvote or my response yet. But I have given you my defense of cbox, and the fact that you lead the charge against him should suffice as a reason for now. I will address "my awkwardness" later when I have more time to post.

vote: Mert

Mert is trying to look like he's some defender of justified voting styles or something when in reality he's just pushing around the stupid wagons that have nothing to do with actual scumminess. He's just pushing suspicion on people who have decided to abandon "traditional voting". Voting by gut, not voting at all and making joke votes aren't inherently scummy (frustrating, though, yes), and they're some wagons that can pick up speed very very fast. The whole argument is about trying to "hide their true intentions" because we have no paper trail. But Mert is also trying to hide his true suspicions by voting cbox - who is way too easy of a vote to show his true suspicions and voting based on a set rule (those who refuse to vote how he votes). I think it's scummy to vote based upon a "rule". And then he tries to pair up MoS and Phoebus which I really don't understand.

[pablito]

@MBL, I see votes from Glork, me, pj, ubertimmy and Phoebus.

PJ unvoted.
Phoebus goes on gut, which I can respect.
ubertimmy doesn't say anything at all, so I have nothing to go off of, but right now I'm calling it more annoying than scummy. But for all the flak MOS is getting, ubertimmy deserves an equal amount.
and Glork, well Glork and I have a rocky relationship right now so my thoughts on him are going to be biased. But I don't think his vote on you was scummy, he justified his first vote well.

As for me feeling awkward. Your stance on cbox is attacking him on a different level of logic that cbox was using. You make it seem that he has some sinister evil mad scientist intent with all of his statements when cbox had relied more on his gut and emotions to lead his suspicions. He put urgency and prematurely attached action to his suspicions (which is wrong, as we've all pointed out), but I don't htink it's inconsistent with his thought process. You point out many of cbox's inaccurate statements but took it as intentional lying rather than unintentional misrepresentation. In your first attack on cbox you point out how cbox has said so many false things time after time in the same post. You expressed some doubt when you mention

Simply careless as hell, or scum hunting baby bunnies with a shotgun?

But with all the intent and thorough analysis that you used when countering cbox, you didn't thoroughly speculate that cbox might have just been careless (which is what I did). The way you present your argument seemed very calculated, but I sense that you were very biased when coming up with your argument. I feel that you added the above quote more to show that you hadn't forgotten that there's a possible opposite viewpoint of your own, but I don't think you had really took it as a possibility.

I don't know, I just feel that you, MBL, were arguing on the wrong level to incriminate cbox. That made me feel awkward.

[pablito]

While Glork's comments are irritating, I'm not sure they show that he's scummy. It sounds more like someone being immature.

Immature? Hell no. Glork has a great record and is trying to improve on his performance from Kingmaker the first. He knows what he's doing and we just need to point to the first game to show what Glork is capable of. It'll only take time before he gets back to his call of greatness. He's misguided for voting me, but I trust him.

I think he's just a little heartbroken right now because his reputation has preceded him. But just give him a chance at being king and he'll make things right. And how does anyone know that his current gameplay isn't a new strategy of his to out scum? It would be tough to find scum the same way in this kingmaker as the last one, so he's surely trying some new crap. Just because he isn't explicitly expressing his suspicions, it doesn't mean he's taking mental notes on everyone.

I think it's time for a

vote: ubertimmy

for getting away with extreme lurking and only saying three words this whole game.

[pablito]

Sigh, I guess Glork didn't get the chocolates from "secret admirer".

I in no way made a guarantee for you, Glork. That's just your assumption and interpretation. "Make things right" was an ambiguous statement. Interesting insinuation though.

[pablito]

I'm starting to think less of bird1111 being scum because his reasons for voting and unvoting seem justified now that I've re-read his posts. But he's still not contributing. Therefore

unvote: bird1111

but

FOS: bird1111

.

I think bird1111 really needs to re-justify and explain why he calls his votes on Glork and me "joke votes". He hasn't really done much since then.

[pablito]

Whoa, that was a bit of a quick lurker jab.

Nonetheless, that's how I've interpreted them on my re-read.

But please, bird1111, please stay and talk about something other than your previous votes.

[pablito]

MBL, for consistency's sake, go ahead and use my below list for your future votes.

Actually, that is a good point. It seems fairly likely that Glork will end up as King eventually, if he dosn't get himself killed first, and it does look like pablito might be trying to make friends with him now so he'll have a better shot at manipulating him later.

fos:pablito

well, what you're saying about phoebus does make sense and his votes do seem telling. however, it's possible phoebus has an explanation, or just voted for whoever looked the most obviously suspicious in their posts, so I'll

FoS: phoebus

until he can come up with a response.

I never really went into strategies I pursued as scum (excepting for dealing with the confirmed innocents problem, and the scum's perspective on Hero claims). In fact,

FoS: Glork

, for that and:

FoS: Petroleumjelly

No need to keep letting us know. It sounds like you’re anxious.

However, I recognize the attitude behind this post, so that slightly diffuses my sentiment on the other posts, so I'll just

FOS:cbox

Box. I'm not buying the newbieness. Playing on emotion is a scum-tell. Claiming when not under pressure is a scum-tell. Giving up is a scum-tell. vote: cardb0ardb0x.

MMOS: no one is asking for you to conform to anybody. All we're asking is for you to vote. If you don't use your vote, we won't know what we're thinking. If you don't care, why the heck are you playing mafia? And why do we have to take notes on what you say? Pro-town players should make an effort to help the town obviously.

FOS: Ameliaslay and Vaughn

for trying to overplay what MBL said about PJ.

It's not as if anybody will be king permanently. If you think there's evidence that a king is scum, you should point it out for town to consider on future days.

(It's also conceivable that putting pressure on a scum king might force him into making a suboptimal execution.)

I think this warrants an

FOS Shaodwlurker

.

Also in looking at cardb0ardb0x's statements. I'd like to point out that Dead Rikimaru first introduced the concept of the Pablito-Glork distancing and cardb0ardb0x was the one that took it much further. Dead Rikimaru didn't even bother vote in that post. That would be an amazing scum move if it Dead Rikimaru just wanted to plant a little seed to get further. But right now I think that the Pablito-Glork distancing was something that any lot of people could have introduced. A lot of people were probably thinking it before Dead Rikimaru got to say it, so I won't vote Dead Rikimaru, yet.

*Oh sheeesh, everyone's already commented on cbox before I got to post, so an

FOS

on those that just voted him.

The reason I'm not voting for Glork at this point is that the only situations suggested to me by their actions are that either both of them are townies, pablito is scum and glork is townie, or both are scum. Is it all right if I just kind of

FOS Glork

at this point? Actually, I'll Vote: Glork for presure, and then take it off

[pablito]

I'm starting to think less of bird1111 being scum because his reasons for voting and unvoting seem justified now that I've re-read his posts. But he's still not contributing. Therefore unvote: bird1111 but FOS: bird1111.

What's the difference? PJ mentioned he won't take people seriously if they vote all over. I'm trying to limit my votes. And the FOS was just to pressure bird1111 into contributing. Probable misuse of the FOS but that was a better explanation on the point than MBL had provided.

[pablito]

Yeah, my behavior doesn't come in binary. That's probably why.

[pablito]

@Thok, what's your thought on Mert?

[pablito]

CDB, you've posted.

I assume that means you've ignored post 252:

Pablito is definitely scum. Who else sees the slightest bit of difference between an FOS and a vote in THIS game? Only jumpy scum.

For the record, I'm thrilled with MoS's policy of not voting. No problem with it whatsoever.

As a person who frequently uses both FOS's and IGMEOY's in non-Kingmaker games, I could see the difference between a vote and an FOS here; it's showing how confident you are in you judgement.

That said, pablito's last comment gives me a bit of a pablito-bird scum vibe; specifically the fact that pablito is calling out bird for being lurkerish, while changing his vote to an FOS. It's enough to for a vote bird.

CDB, Please comment on this post. You should.

[pablito]

Thok, it's nothing on you. I'm checking out CDB's sense of consistency.

[pablito]

Sigh.

I don't find CDB's actions as particularly scummy, but I don't like it. And his lack of jumping on Thok made me wonder.

First off, Vote: Cardb0ardb0x for double standards. So your theory is that

both pablito and Glork are scum

, but you only vote for one of them, despite making it clear that you're aware you can vote for multiple people? Sure, maybe you're not sure they're both scum - but you should at least put some pressure on them both to test the theory.

So we have MoS saying he won't vote, but his suspicions will be laid out in full and we should take note of his words rather than his voting pattern. Then, on the other hand, we have Phoebus saying he plays by gut and may not bother making cases against people, leaving only his votes to indicate his thoughts.

That's quite a tag-team.

Vote: Mert for trying to tie two players together, however subtly

.

That said, pablito's last comment gives me

a bit of a pablito-bird scum vibe

; specifically the fact that pablito is calling out bird for being lurkerish, while changing his vote to an FOS. It's enough to for a vote bird.

CDB has been all over any comment that ties any two players together. That's consistent and not so scummy. But it's that he's helped keep people consistent with it, and he's usually immediately jumping on the comment that ties people together. But after Thok's statement it's nothing. Personally, I think it's oversight, but I just wanted to point out that CDB has a clear theme.

Nonetheless,

vote: ChannelDelibird

. I find that both Mert and CDB are openly suspecting people because of themes (wacky voting or tying people together) and are failing to jump out of that box.

This is probably a weak case, but the patterns are too odd to not point out. Plus I find that sensible scum often hide behind such "rules" so that they can justify their votes.

Also has no one else noticed that UberTimmy has said nary a word except for his votes and a "me too MoS"?? Is that not scummier than MoS' non votes?

[pablito]

You seem to have a rule of voting for people who vote based off of rules. I'm curious to see if you plan to vote yourself.

It's also weird that you vote CDB for following a rule in a post where you claimed he broke that rule. This is the second time where your words and your votes don't seem to match up.

If it so pleases Thok, I would vote myself. It would be an inconsequential vote for the most part, but yeah, it might lead to a majority vote on me. Nonetheless, I feel confident enough with my position in the town and my actions that I could fight my way out of being executed despite an inclusion on a LoE. I don't think it's less than obvious that I'm intentionally being visible today and making unnecessary defenses for people that don't necessarily need or should be defended.

[pablito]

It's unclear to me how your wildness/unnecessary behavior is helping town find scum; it's clear that your behavior encourages people to focus on you and allows others to hide while you dance around going "Tra La La, look at me, I are smart".

Well technically, town don't have to find scum, just the kings. So there :p

Well, Thok, wrong or not, would you rather I shut up? I don't see how that helps any more. I can tone myself down, but I think pointing at some of the lesser visible players is only helping the town. While I have attracted attention, I have also pointed out some of the people that have stayed in the limelight. I know my arguments aren't always the best, but I pick up on the small things that no one else sees.

[pablito]

Yeah, after re-reading the above post, I really don't like it. I really gotta shut up more often.

[pablito]

Agreed.

[pablito]

Looks like pablito is trying too hard to look scummy, while Glork looks more and more annoyed.
Is this an extreme distancing technique?

Your stance is consistent, but "distancing" implies a pair, so you did promote a pairing, albeit extremely subtly.

Yeah, blah blah, everyone's saying "pablito never acts like this" so shut it and live with it. I know I've been visible this game and I know that a lot of people construe visible as scummy. My early moves with defending Glork have served a higher purpose and I stand by those moves. Also please note that in my original first "defend Glork" post, I also put in a subtle mention that I'd defend PJ, but no one cares about mentioning that. Everyone's more fixated on the Glork part because
a) I singled out Glork more
b) Glork reacted

No, I won't reveal what I was thinking when I said I'll defend Glork to the bone. Ask me some other day.

[pablito]

Since no one's really voting much anymore, I'll do some voting for them.

vote: Ameliaslay, Nightson

[pablito]

No. Because it would bring more discussion and more fun if people can try to speculate why I'm doing it.

[pablito]

Well I'll explain my vote on you Nightson, if it's going to give you more to discuss.


Both you and vikingfan kinda "grandfathered" your vote son me. Vikingfan's initial vote was random and he never really explained why he kept the vote on - also because it was his only vote. He just kinda took it for granted. And you unvoted all and then revoted me again. Just felt awkward.

[pablito]

Decent LoE. And PJ, I only have 6 votes, but that's still a tie for second most votes, so your point is still justified.

[pablito]

Sure, I've since forgotten the reasons.

Unvote: Ameliaslay

I'm sure there was a stupid reason, but eh, I can't be bothered. Probably was gut. But I feel satisfied with your latest posts.

Oh and btw,

Unvote: MBL

I don't feel like keeping up with him. I'm not saying he's no longer scummy in my eyes, but it's clear I won't get much more out of him today and getting to ignore him for awhile will be better for me.

[pablito]

But they're obviously intentional. How could anyone be that strange and natural?

[pablito]

To see fools like you try so hard to justify a vote on me because you know that it's the easiest and most convenient path. In other words, I'm seeking opportunistic scum.

I should stop it though, in light of the retractable deadline.

You gotta think though, why would I become even more suspicious at this time in the day? especially after people began to stop suspecting me?

[pablito]

Yeah, but you're still a fool. So point still holds.

[pablito]

cbox, your answer. And it was all contained in my first controversial post, I'll just reinterpret it for you so that it makes more sense.

I will defend Glork today to the bone. He'll have some awesome moves (whether anti-town or pro-town) within time and even if he's scum, I will not vote him/suggest his execution because he'll have such an uphill battle to fight. He's going to try to live up to last Kingmaker so he's got a tough image to beat. Either he's going to have to look like a supremely pro-town townie or a supremely pro-town assassin. He's already so visible (ditto with petroleumjelly) that it'll be easier to sniff out pro-town and anti-town vibes from them later. I'd rather focus on sniffing out the less visible players this time even if it means everyone is going to vote and suspect me.

There ya go. Feel free to vote me now Smile

So wait. My first post about my defense on Glork never mentioned that I knew Glork's alignment, only that I was putting a burden of supremely pro-town play on him. So where's this coming from cbox?

Furthermore, I explicitly say here that I will focus on sniffing out less visible players even if it means everyone is going to vote and suspect me. And what have I done? I've defended and restrained myself from going after cbox, I've acknowledged that Phoebus has a good reason for his votes, and when I voted someone, it was often the

first vote

and first argument against that person. So no one should say that I've done anything inconsistent. If you say I appear scummy, read that above post again and say that the above post is scummy in itself, not that my subsequent actions have been necessarily scummy.

I already alerted everyone to my plan - defend highly visible players and I picked out Glork and a small mention of PJ as those that I would defend. This was before others popped up. I also gave rationale as to why I will appear to defend these people - because we should focus on others who are sliding by (thusly not as visible). Also note again that I do not admit to knowing their alignment through exterior means, and that I also don't admit that I'm even defending someone because they're not scummy, but only because I did not want to focus on visible people today.

Why is this productive? Because in a game where wagons help but aren't necessarily culminating inevitably toward a lynch - it is of the utmost importance to seek out everyone as equally as possible to give the king a more informed decision. Why waste so much time help pile on Phoebus or cardb0ardb0x when I can point out little things from CDB Mert and Ubertimmy? If I were a non-productive townie, I could as easily focus and expand on previous arguments so that we end up near deadline with very few suspects who we've analyzed ad nauseum. Instead, we at least have

some

number of suspects to go off of. This might not be something that everyone thinks is truly productive, and it might have actually been counter-productive, but I think there have been some interesting reactions that might give us more informed decisions in later days. Very few people have done some good questioning, so I think that the lack of suspects is due to the apathy of the town most of all.

Also, would someone who is seeking out not-so-visible suspects try to act not-so-visible. Yeah, possibly, but didn't I mention that I probably would be voted during the day?

I think aside from Ameliaslay and MBL votes, I lead a charge against someone who wasn't as visible before. Also subsequently, I unvoted those people at the same time when I knew that these votes couldn't hold any water (which is admittedly not good play).

cbox, I want to suspect you, but you just confuse me instead (masons?). Your suspicions seem justified and if you're pro-town please continue doing this - I wouldn't even mind if you keep on doing it with me - but at least suspect and follow-up with questions just like you are doing.

[pablito]

glork nightson pj pablito ctd cdb fritz yos amelia thok cbox spectrum twomz mert mos ubertimmy

Well, deadline in about two days and we still haven't heard from bird1111, Dead Rikimaru, Machiavellian-Mafia, MrBuddyLee, Phoebus, PookyTheMagicalBear, Rosso Carne, and Vaughn since the deadline was set on Monday. 8/24 haven't said anything since the LoE went up then. And we expect to be playing the game well when two of those on the LoE haven't even said anything in their defense? I just hope that some day results and night results will get the town acting in Day 2 because Day 1 has been fairly useless.

I hope that activity strongly picks up this weekend so that we get the deadline retracted, but we all know how weekends are.

[pablito]

Mistake, three days until deadline. But still, sentiment is the same. Three days is too little time to make an informed decision unless we all chip in.

[pablito]

Thok, you'll never understand my style of play and I've accepted it. We've gone over it before.

I'm still hoping for the deadline retraction most of all.

But it won't happen until people talk. So do it.

[pablito]

I'd rather not discuss it in this game, but once this game is over, I can definitely do that for you.

[pablito]

I agree with MBL on that.

Also, more pressure on UberTimmy is good. I've been saying that for weeks now, glad to see someone finally see what I'd been saying.

[pablito]

I don't like the Vaughn lurking, but I don't find him scummy.

I'm currently buying the MoS argument regarding Phoebus.
I still don't see Phoebus as being more scummy than frustrating.

vote: Rosso Carne

for all the lurkers and non-posters I find his case the most compelling. He missed the original signup deadline and now that he's in the game, there's basically nothing of substance from him. I would've expected more passion from him in this specific game.

[pablito]

I'd also be for a Pooky execution more than a Vaughn execution. Then again, I'd be for a lot more executions than a Vaughn one.

[pablito]

Yes, Glork had to comment on me so many times that it didn't leave enough room for others. I still find Mert suspicious though. I'm not removing that vote.

Even though I have not found primary evidence of them being scummy in my eyes, I do believe the following two targets could be worthy of an execution based on their attacker's arguments: Pooky and CrashTextDummie.

I would strongly support for a Rosso Carne execution above most (at this moment in time with ChannelDelibird and Mert next in line). I suspect him for different reasons that Glork has brought up, but I find Rosso's absence to be highly suspicious...especially considering the zeal that he had when coming into the game. I'm still unsure if it's damningly scummy, but it's the scummiest non-move in this game so far.

Still though, I think perhaps heavy pressure in the next day may be enough to get a response from either bird1111 or Rosso. I don't know if execution without defending oneself is the best course of action today, but it may be the only course of action we have due to the deadline.

[pablito]

Maybe PJ's deciding to off himself by not submitting a choice.

[pablito]

In the following analysis I hypothesize what might happen should each of the listed be executed. I do not claim to know these people's alignment (looking at you cbox), but I'm assuming a pro-town execution to see what information we can take out of a badly executed execution. It is obviously best to execute scum today but our lack of intent investigation has prevented us from attaining optimal odds.

My guess is that bird1111 is highest on PJ's list but the fact that bird1111 has been an extreme non-poster in this game is making PJ reconsider it slightly. I mean, bird1111 has barely even bothered to defend himself. I wonder if a replacement on bird1111 will make us suspect the replacement less or even more and whether that's the path that we want to take. Also, is there enough compelling evidence alone by bird's lurking actions to find him as our best option as scum?

I'm intrigued by PJ's extremely sudden inclusion of Rosso. I like it, but I have to wonder what the thought process for PJ was. At the same time, if we're wrong about Rosso, there's nearly no evidence for us to go on from there. The only people who have voiced concerns on Rosso are Glork and me. And both of us are fairly visible enough that a Rosso execution (which turns up with Rosso as town) won't necessarily change people's minds on us. It might cause some to tip over the edge. But the progression of the Rosso wagon was so quick and so out of nowhere that if there was scum intervention, it's so obvious it hurts. And Glork and I are already so visible, so there would be no significant information on us, but it would give us info on PJ and possibly some other info.

A Phoebus execution seems possible. I don't like that possibility because I don't think we've fully thought out Phoebus yet today (although that is something that can be said for everyone but cbox, MoS, and Pablito). And I don't value the scumtells the same way that the town values the scumtells on Phoebus. I think a lot of people were trying to grab something out of thin air with Phoebus. I don't yet think Phoebus is completely pro-town, but the wagon on him and the deduction used is so pallid that a Phoebus execution is probably going to end with a town death. Nonethless, knowing his confirmation for sure can give us some insight into others in this game. But I don't think that a Phoebus death is well worth that information.

As for Pooky. Even before you Glork said anything, I had a gut feeling on him. But I can't give more of an argument than that. Something felt off. And interestingly, Rosso's comments made it even more visible. But as I stated before with Rosso's blurb, a Pooky death wouldn't give us any added information if he turns out town.

[pablito]

Hmm, I suppose MoS and I have had somewhat similar defenses for Phoebus? I'd have to re-read to know, and I can't be arsed to do that now

[pablito]

I barely skimmed the first game and that was months ago when it was still going on. So hell if even I know.

[pablito]

I'm all for a Rosso death. But that's what my gut says and apparently that's a word that shouldn't be spoken in these here parts.

Also, Rosso under pressure tomorrow isn't going to give us more information that we need. Rosso's defense style isn't going to give us progress. And he's also not adding anything. But that's just the "under deadline" part of me speaking. I would've preferred more from him - but knowing his defense and attack styles from other games, I feel we won't get as much as we want. So basically I'm saying that I don't like Rosso's gameplay as of late (which is ironic because many are saying that of me) and that it's reason to execute him.

Frankly if you execute one of MoS/Phoebus, scum and/or misguided townies may gang up on the surviving one and work him until he says something remotely scummy and that'll keep going until some day down the line when the other gets executed. Keeping them both in may allow us better investigation tomorrow, but that's also at a risk because if one/both are scum, that's just giving them time. This is likely wild speculation, but it's a possibility. But this is probably motivated by my desire to keep in more visible players in so that we can make more informed decisions in later days.

[pablito]

Then again, Rosso may be at risk of being replaced, so that brings my whole argument to naught. So maybe better off that you ignore me.

[pablito]

Actually I do believe both to be town. But note that I also admit that it was wild speculation. Halfway through writing that post, I realized that I just really wanted a visible pair to survive together just so we can check them both out tomorrow instead of relying on one to retell the other's side of the story.

[pablito]

Btw, total Freudian slip with the whole genitalia sing/plural argument earlier. And Jocasta was hot anyway.

[pablito]

vote: bird1111

for continuing to lurk without replacement. Feel free to direct any questions to me.

[pablito]

unvote: bird1111

very justified. keep up the posts like that.

[pablito]

My gift to bird1111 and Phoebus.

Sorry, I don't remember the content of the missing posts.

[pablito]

vote: ubertimmy, crashtextdummie

I previously didn't suspect CTD, but I really don't like his reasons for voting PJ. I remember having voted for Mert and Twomz and Pooky before...but right now I'm unsure on Twomz and I'll give Pooky more time before I pass judgment on him.

As for CTD...there was a deadline and PJ had to do things differently because of the deadline. When you look back at yesterday's end, you should look at PJ's stance on Rosso in his three-tiered list. Then look at Glork and my posts after that and how we refer to our suspicions on both Pooky and Rosso and how we frame these suspicions. Then look at how much of that may have influenced PJ and how much of the lynching circumstances for Rosso were independently processed by PJ and how much he relied on Glork and my stances on Rosso for his choice.

If you believe that PJ was scum king and made a mis-execution yesterday, then clearly there would have been motive to protect someone or misdirect everyone. Therefore, CTD - what was PJ's agenda in getting rid of Rosso? I don't believe that PJ got rid of Rosso simply because Rosso was vocal against PJ - in fact, PJ knew he'd have to deal with the consequences (and burden of pro-town play like Glork) today anyway - so eliminating Rosso could not have been as beneficial to a scum king as anything else...at least all in my opinion.

[pablito]

Yes, Pablito, I already expressed my opinion that yesterday's decision was a tough one to make for pro-town PJ. It's my hesitation to believe that pro-town PJ would wait so far into the deadline to get down to business in the first place that makes me suspicious of him.

Hell, very few townsfolk were even getting down to business

until

the deadline came around. PJ did provide consistent participation and insight prior to the deadline and I feel he gave as much analysis before the deadline than before. I do not see PJ's decision as a reflection of lack of anything or an intentional misappropriation of time. I do not feel that he waited to the last minute. Considering what the town was giving him, I see that he made as best of a decision he could have and he also showed a lot of independence in that decision (but make of it what you will). I blame the town for not discussing early enough to help PJ make his decision. We hold the burden of executions as well. Even though our votes may not inevitably lead to a lynch, it is our discussion and movement in analysis that helps the king make his decision no matter how independent the choice is. If we don't work hard enough during day, we

cannot

expect the king to make the best decision possible. I'm sure that doesn't address any of your points, CTD, but I feel it needs to be known that it's all of our fault that Rosso was executed, it's just that certain people, like PJ (and likely me) are more accountable for it.

I have to ask you though, Pablito:
What message do you think you're sending to a potential future scum king by granting PJ complete impunity just because he was under a deadline and had your support? Never mind that he broke one of the rules he imposed on himself:

2.) I will only execute persons while they are on my LoE, and I will give them 48 hours notice if I am planning on Executing them, from which time they may make final pleas, and the town (obviously) should chip in their opinion.

To me, any king who even bothers to listen to me obviously has some stance on my trustworthiness. If a king can analyze my alignment, then I believe he has the ability to put enough analysis into the process and is likely a pro-town king and therefore will make the best judgment for the town.

Also, Rosso was barely around and I felt it to be a tell. Also, it's the town fault for having a deadline imposed. If discussion didn't lag, we wouldn't have had that deadline. Again, I'm unabashedly placing primary blame on the town.

And no, I don't know what motive scum PJ could have had for executing Rosso, apart from him probably being PJ's most vocal oponent. I can't read minds. Can you?

Well I was wondering if you had a hypothesis on what PJ was doing. Was he planning to bus Phoebus or bird1111 and suddenly found an out with Rosso? Was he trying to misdirect the town or maybe even bring more attention to himself to protect his scumbuds? Was he trying to act unorthodoxly to bring about some WIFOM scum action? Was he just trying to get rid of a vocal opponent by executing him?

I simply do not find reason to suspect PJ only for breaking his own rule or acting odd under deadline. I think PJ is so calculating that if he's scum he would not have executed someone unless he had the logic to back his decision. I think there's a lot more behind PJ's decision than he's told us, and you have every right to demand it (in fact, I would support such an action).

I don't believe that PJ got rid of Rosso simply because Rosso was vocal against PJ - in fact, PJ knew he'd have to deal with the consequences (and burden of pro-town play like Glork) today anyway - so eliminating Rosso could not have been as beneficial to a scum king as anything else...at least all in my opinion.

Most of us are townies, so having Rosso dead is about as beneficial to scum as anyone else. The fact that your reasoning for why scum PJ wouldn't execute Rosso is mostly based on WIFOM is not sitting well with me though.

Take it as WIFOM or not, I stand by my positions no matter how scummy or pro-town they appear to others. But I'm obviously biased because I wanted Rosso executed, I'm not afraid to admit it. I believe in one of the kidnapped posts I asked for Glork and me to be examined as much as PJ for the decision since we were the only three who bothered to mention Rosso in the times leading up to the execution.

[pablito]

vote: Yosarian2

. I'm not liking the defense right now, but it's possible that he's just misguided because of his lack of comprehension of the game timeline. Also I may be biased because I'm totally buying all of Glork's arguments on Yos.

but

unvote: crashtextdummie

, because I think his attack on PJ seemed well intentioned but the reasons just aren't there. Nonetheless, I don't feel there was scummy motive behind his attack and thus the unvote. I still find his actions suspect, though.

[pablito]

his PJ vote. Still feels unsettling, but the current interpretation I have is that a reasonable pro-town voter would have still made the same argument and vote.

oh and it's also suspect that he keeps on being the brunt of fritz's vote, so that gotta mean he's somewhat scummy.

[pablito]

oh yeah, and in the series of posts where we kept responding to each other...those felt right. so that's kinda warranting an unvote. but I've had this tendency to unvote early with votes on scum in other games and I ended up returning to them after all. So most early unvotes for me will still retain some doubt.

[pablito]

Oh, and vote:pablito. Yesterday I had the feeling he was trying to get on Glork's "good side" so that he could manipulate him when he became king, and today it seems he's trying to manipulate Glork into killing a good guy by just saying "I agree with everything Glork said and disagree with everything Yos said" without actually responding to anything or giving any reasons.

Your vote is well-intentioned, but your stated reasons are not entirely accurate.

I stated before that I wanted to defend/support Glork (and PJ) because those two had the most to lose in this game because of how the first game went down. Therefore I made the assumption that this will cause them to make good moves for the town whether anti-town or pro-town, because there is a subconscious need to do as well or better than the first game.

heh, deja vu.

And Glork, no one's brought up a direct case against you, but before you even said a word, there was a heavy unspoken case against and for you. Until I know your alignment for certain, I'll advocate for your presence in the game simply because the pressure on you will make you work hard.

Fuck that.

I'm not trying anymore, and you can't make me.

If you think that my intent was to "manipulate" Glork. It's fairly obvious that in post 50 Glork caught onto my plan and I obviously was no longer "manipulating" him. Yet I still continued with my defense of Glork. And I've also defended PJ even though he is no longer in power - so take it as you will.

As for trying to get Glork to kill a good guy. Well hell, I'm pleased you think that I have that level of influence on him, but it's fairly clear it's not true. I'll try to guide him to who I think is scum, but realistically it's not gonna happen because Glork is still astounded by my interactions with him (which is a completely justified stance). But if my interactions and suspicions on people during today somehow directly or indirectly help Glork limit his suspicions or add to his suspicions, I'll be glad. But that's because it's what the town should be doing anyway - instead of relying on the king to limit their suspicions for them by posting a LoE.

I will admit that I did decide to take a "Yosarian2 sounds scummy enough and Glork sounds genuine enough to warrant a Yos vote" stance. I haven't completely thought out how the Glork-Yosarian discussion went out. I do know that I didn't like the way that you responded, Yos; that's enough to warrant my vote. I could say that it's coincidence that Glork was the one asking you the questions and that I would've done the same had it been anyone else, but eh, I don't think it can be said. And even if I were to say so, no one would believe me.

Also I'm going to

vote: StallingChamp

with no reasons stated and none to come.

And I'm starting to lose confidence in cardboardbox now - especially after all this time. My initial defense on him was that it seemed that his newbie actions and statements were being mistaken for scummy-looking behavior. Now that he's been around and he's settled into how this game and how the site tends to go...I'm just not sure how I feel about he's pursued things. Not enough for a vote - at least not until I re-read him. I'll also likely do re-reads on StallingChamp and Yosarian2 as well. But not until I have some more time.

[pablito]

Pablito: Please tell us your thoughts on Dead Rikimaru, Mert, and Spectrumvoid at this point. What reads or inklings do you have on them?

Without doing a re-read on them, here are my thoughts. I will add these people into my future re-read though and I'll post my further thoughts on them.

Dead Rikimaru is an extreme lurker and the content of his posts makes him appear extremely pro-town. However, the way he approached everything and what information he chooses when he has decided to post - those things strike me as odd and scummy. So in isolated posts, Rikimaru does not look scummy at all to me. In context of when those posts were made, he is at least on the top half of my LoS. I've had this thought on him ever since I made my first comment on how he tried to subtly link Glork-pablito. The fact that he's voting me just makes it easier for me to continue this thought process. He tends to pick up on the easiest thing to comment on and then does so. That feels too convenient to me. One could say that he's just taking what he sees when he posts, but the way he posted about the Glork-pablito link was actually an intense thought process - mainly because he had to have had time to quote each and every one of those posts. I have to admit though that it isn't helping that we both suspect each other because it only amplifies our scumdar on each other.

Mert to me appeared to be distant and cold in his unspoken thought process. It just felt too mechanistic and too rigid. Even though he never explicitly stated it, he had a system for voting people which I pointed out earlier when I first voted him. I feel that true town players will evaluate case by case and not rely on certain criteria to become alarmed. Mert's thought process (as I interpreted it) did not feel pro-town at all. The way he approached the town had a town feel to it, but it smelled scummy to me. Again, it's not necessarily the content of his posts, but the information that he chose to glean from town discussion. In day two, his posts (I think most were lost) feel more genuine and that's why I haven't really pursued continuing with him. He's still in the back of my mind though. I think either Mert has more information to go on and is thus presenting himself better, or that he knows he's at stake and has to wisen up. Also he's becoming more visible, and it seems that once that happens, I ease up on them and let others decide how to gauge him.

As for spectrumvoid, I tend to find her scummy all the time. I don't remember what she's done in this game specifically to have garnered any attention. I really found that last vote to be suspect though. It seemed alright and justified, but it really surprised me. And the subsequent unvote was more alarming to me. I would require a re-read on spectrumvoid to get a better read on her because I don't remember her well in the context of this game only.

[pablito]

I'm not done with my spectacular re-read yet, but I'd have

vote: Mert

anyway once it was posted. Thanks Glork for prompting me to dig up some clues on him!

[pablito]

Here is the result of my re-read on the people I said I would re-read. I skipped a lot of posts because I got tired half-way through, but I think it justifies my Mert post. Also, StallingChamp really hasn't posted much, but I feel convinced that CDB was scum after doing the re-read. I'm not reading the entire thread again because that was too much work.

StallingChamp/ChannelDelibird

I think I made my stance on CDB clear earlier. I was highly suspicious of CDB and StallingChamp hasn't exactly put my fears at ease.

CDB has been all over any comment that ties any two players together. That's consistent and not so scummy. But it's that he's helped keep people consistent with it, and he's usually immediately jumping on the comment that ties people together. But after Thok's statement it's nothing. Personally, I think it's oversight, but I just wanted to point out that CDB has a clear theme.

Nonetheless, vote: ChannelDelibird. I find that both Mert and CDB are openly suspecting people because of themes (wacky voting or tying people together) and are failing to jump out of that box.

cardb0ardb0x

Good luck all. Here's to one of my first games on this site.

While this early statement helped notify us that he was new and that some of his actions may just be from a newbie, it could also unintentionally effectively hide some of his more scummy behaviors.

the first round is always kind of awkward

Yowch, I didn't catch this before. Then again, cbox has mentioned he's done FTF, but just new to MS.

Here are some of my thoughts.

1) It’s possible that both pablito and glork are scum. The idea is that pablito is the over-eager mafia, trying to support his pal. Glork knows how to play, and therefore doesn’t want the obvious attention and association, whether he is scum or not.

Therefore, Vote: Pablito

2) MrBuddyLee has been voting for a lot of people with little or no reasoning. In the same vein, he has only asked for other people’s opinions (both yos’s and everyone’s in general) rather than expressing his own. This would also make sense if mrbuddylee, pablito, and glork were all mafia, because MBL also defended glork in a post.

Therefore, Vote: MrBuddyLee

3) ShadowLurker has similarly been voting with little to no explanation, but I just kind of want to bring it up, it’s not that big an issue. Specifically, he's voted for me, pablito, pooky, and twomz. The one where he votes for me doesn’t really count because it was a standard random vote in his first post, but whatever.

I’m not giving him a vote, though.

4) Also, I’m just generally suspicious of anyone who uses flattery. I forget who did it though.

So, overall, I would suggest executing pablito, and if he is confirmed scum (is their role revealed when they are killed?) i guess glork would be next. Obviously I'm not completely sure about any of them.

I think this post sums up cbox neatly. He had a sense of urgency, but his logic was poor but it put him out in the open. I called the urgency due to FTF game experience, but his suspicions are still fair game to attack. Nonetheless, that last statement makes me feel that this was a misguided pro-town post.

come on, guys. please read my explanation in post 84... not just the bold "vote" sign. *obviously* my little vote there wasn't going to get glork lynched, i had just been instructed that people were supposed to vote a lot in this game, to give the king an idea of what everyone's thinking.

There's really not much else I can say in my defense that i didn't say already, so I'll just be quiet for now. As long as I can. I know there are a lot of posts and theres huge flooding, but please read my entire post and think about it.

This is cbox's defense after the wagon starts up. The question is...would this be the tone and stance that a person would take in a FTF game more than a MS game? If so, then this defense makes sense. If not, then this is a scumtell. Well I've made a similar plea in scumchat games before, so I'm leaning toward "yes, it makes sense".

fine. lynch me. if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

honestly, i trust pj to make the right descision. and actually read what i write. i admit i made factual errors in my earlier posts. i know i'm easy to bandwagon. no self-respecting mafia player would NOT vote for me. Sorry for distracting everybody during the first round and wasting a lynch.

Usually this comes from scum giving up or extreme newbies. Considering his previous posts, I patch it up as being a bit inexperienced. Up until this point, his pleas sound inexperienced, his logic decent.

Hold on- I just had a flash of inspiration. I don't necessarily agree with this, but I thought of a potential advantage for the town to out the kingmaker. This is a little complicated and probably wouldn't work. The idea is that, as we all know, mafia cannot become kingmakers.

Mafia cannot become kingmakers. There is a way to exploit that fact. This would require several things. First, the kingmaker would have to declare who they are putting in line to become the next kingmaker should they be mafia'd. Second, those in line to become the next kingmaker would have to declare *who* they would choose to be king the next day should they become kingmaker, and each person's selection *must* be different.

Pre-Post Edit: The kingmaker would declare who they would make king the next day, to prevent a false claim. All of this would make more sense if it occurred after the king has pretty much made his/her decision, but before he/she actually posts the Execute command.

Under this system, let's say A is the current kingmaker, and declares B and C to be next in line as kingmakers. B declares he would make D king if B were made kingmaker. C declares that she would make E king if C were made kingmaker. That night, A is assassinated. The next morning, E is made king. Therefore, it can be deduced that B is mafia. Should D have been made king the next morning, it would confirm B as on the town's side. Am I being clear? I think I might have had a false epiphany...

Actually, now that I think about it, this really isn't a very good idea. It gives too much information to the mafia, and could totally screw up the game if a mafia declared kingmaker. It also gives the mafia some really obvious kill targets. This idea is so bad I probably shouldn't even post it. I'm just putting this out there as kingmaker theory- I'm not advocating its use at all.

Yeah, that's pretty pro-town. Scum would've ended up deleting that post or not posting at all instead of reversing the thought.

Umm... 1 newbie question. How long are days/nights expected to take in an online mafia game? And yeah, FoSes and votes are kinda different, even though the rules of kingmaker don't specifically state so.

Another pro-town looking post. Also it adds to the newbie-card defense in response to the urgency.

On the

On Pablito: I don't get it. In my eyes there's equal chance that pablito's acting scummy so he won't get mafia'd at night or that he's just plain old scum. I don't see how we're supposed to tell day 1. However, the deliberate nature of his actions-
pablito wrote:
But they're obviously intentional. How could anyone be that strange and natural?
(did he mean unnatural?) suggests a level of planning. I'm guessing that especially creative tactics are usually employed by the mafia rather than the town.
On the other hand, his behavior may be allocated towards a desire to simply take a big gamble and assume that any one particular player is on the town's side/ally, right off the bat. All things considored, the probability that one will end up randomly choosing another townie is very good. That may have been pab's original thinking, although it looks less and less like this is the case as time goes on..

Well here's a post I don't remember from before. I find this highly pro-town and he seems to have an incredible read on me. I drop all doubt I had on cbox before. Honestly, part of my behavior has been to not be NKed. Also to elicit actions...because you know when the town doesn't bother get its collective arse into action until minutes before deadline it helps to create reactions in people. Actions are often very intentional, reactions sometimes bring about interesting tells. The fact that cbox of all people brought this up first, wow, it astounds me.

Yes I find cbox pro-town now. Before I was just seeing him as not necessarily being anti-town, but I'm now convinced he's pro-town.

Yosarian2

And now begins my masterful plan of finally playing through an entire game without voting. Unless I become king, lol.

vote:MOS

Not acceptable.

This demonstrates Yos' primary position.

Well, I won't "deal with" you not voting. The only thing voting does in this game is give pro-town people information. It gives both the king and the kingmaker direct, easy to find and interpret information about who most of the town finds scummy and who most of the town trusts at any given point in time, both of which are absolutly vital to the town's chances of winning the game. It gives us a clear, easy to follow record of what you think, have thought, and have done during the course of the game. It lets us see who voted for who, when, and why.

Voting gives the town information the town NEEDS to have, and without the normal risks of speedlynches or accidental hammers or such. So refusing to vote is actually an even MORE anti-town action in this game then it would be in a normal game, because in a normal game scum have some solid reasons to vote; here, they have less.

So I think at this point I'm going to continue voting for you, MOS, until you make at least one vote.

Looks and smells pro-town (I have that tendency when looking at Yos though), but that last sentence is either frustrated townie or scum setting up a future precedent.

Eh? Why would we "assume" anything like that?

I mean, it's obveously futile to bandwagon the king today, but if you think the king does something scummy you should say so. The king is just likely to be scum as anyone else.

Seems pro-town to me. I'm not understanding my vote that much on Yos right now.

Eh...with the deadline coming up, I figured I should vote for the person on the execution list I felt most suspicious of. I honestly don't have a very strong suspicion on anyone at this point, but out of the 4 people the king said he's thinking about executing, you're at the top of my list.

Basically, like I said in an earlier post, my general impression so far is that you've been mostly :nothelpfull:, and the one time you did contribute content it was to shamlessly bandwagon without good reasons.

Maybe that's why. That vote for Phoebus did feel off. Yosarian kept a strong vice grip on MoS and then suddenly came into the general discussion once the LoE came up. I'm still undecided on Yos2. I'll keep my vote on until I decide. But I always have a hard time reading Yos2, so it would take more time than this post alone.

Mert

I'm not sure I'd say random voting is entirely pointless in this game, though it obviously means less in real terms than in a normal one. There is still the chance that someone will push for a wagon or that someone will react to having a few votes on them, which may lead to discussion.

I don't think it's the world's biggest deal if people don't want to but I'd certainly stop short of saying there's no point at all.

Talking of discussion, are people happy with the "List of Execution" system that was used in the last game? To those lucky people that were in the first one, do you feel that it worked sufficiently or would you change the mechanics? To those that weren't (myself included), I guess a more general question of whether you think there should be rules that the King must follow and if so, what (and how prescriptive) should they be?

Looks alright, but the timing was so off. We were previously on the good subject of MoS not voting and this came up. I really really don't like this vote anymore on retrospect. Here Mert talks about different voting systems and random voting and execution systems but never ever bothers to mention the elephant in the room. There's the possibility that the middle sentence in that quote mentions "not voting at all" rather than "not random voting" - but I think Mert completely failed to mention MoS. What's also interesting is that he's baiting a question and trying to set up a process for the town. Especially since he only waits 15 minutes to respond to the only response to the above post.

Well I'm not personally sure if this makes things too prescriptive or not, but when I was reading Kingmaker before I was wondering over the possibility of having two King-nominated and two town-nominated candidates per day that go onto the LoE. Obviously the King still makes the final decision, but maybe the town-nominated players cannot be removed from the List without consensus (and carry over to the next day) whereas the King ones change daily and can be added/removed at will by the King.

But meh, I'm not sure if it'd cause more problems for the town than it'd solve to be honest. If anyone has any ideas on the above proposal, then I'd love to hear them. If you think it's rubbish then I won't be offended because I'm still undecided myself. Just thought I'd throw it out there as a possible alternative.

So after Twomz posted, this was Mert's reply. I feel that perhaps his response was genuine and that he really wanted to think about how the list of execution should go, but the timing was perfec to move people off of MoS and onto a new subject. Furthermore, it makes Mert look townie regardless of his alignment. I don't like how he portrays himself in this. To me, it seems fake, but I'm sure a lot of others would and should believe he's genuine in that above post.

Well clearly the main purpose should be that the King is accountable to the town without having a fall-back of "well, the town told me to". It needs to be clear that the King's decision is his or her own, but they must also accept that the town has a right to disseminate their actions and that they have a responsibility to discuss how they came to their decision on who to execute. Since we don't have any cops in this game there should be no worry about outing themselves, so I see no reason not to say "I will execute so-and-so, for the reasons x, y and z."

Hmmm, having said that, there is a risk that someone could catch scum by using a particular method and we don't necessarily want to be announcing that method so that scum can change their tactics overnight. Now I'm confused. How about we suggest that each King may operate in their own way but must give some reasons for their actions (if not final reasons for execution, should it not be appropriate) and must give everybody the opportunity to defend themselves prior to execution? Maybe we could also say that Kings must announce at the beginning of their reign that they will be using the LoE or some other system of their choosing and must explain, if asked, why they have decided to use that system?

Again there was a lot to talk about and Mert came back to the rules. There was so much ammo but Mert keeps wanting to talk about the LoE. I cannot believe that Mert would have nothing to say up to this point about MoS or Twomz or Pooky or cbox or Glork-pablito. It just makes me wonder a lot.

...Sounds to me like you're setting up future plausible deniability when your voting trail doesn't check out. If you're found to be voting for a bunch of innocents you can say you were just voting a lot because you were told to. Conversely, if you're found to be not voting enough you can say "yeah, well everyone told me off for voting too eagerly before".

The only reason I'm not going to vote for you in this post is that I already randomly voted for you and now you've given me reason not to remove it.

While I'm on the subject, Vote: Mastermind of Sin; Vote: bird1111

All three are generally removing the effectiveness of an analysis of voting patterns in different ways. Cardb0ardb0x I've addressed above, MoS by refusing to vote at all and Bird by talking about how his votes were a joke and he doesn't see the point in votes in this game etc etc.

So Mert had every chance to comment on MoS or bird1111 before but only now he decides to comment? This is very interesting and alarming. By combining the votes into one catch all "these voting functions are weird and hey I was talking about that for a long time earlier today so these are justified votes" vote post, he's deafening the blow of one of these votes. If Mert's scum, he may have purposely not passed judgment on one of these two because one of these two is a scumbuddy. But still, Mert's posts are too focused and rigid. He has one set of mind and does not mention anything until it comes into focus. Either this is extreme tunnel vision and refusal to be flexible, or it's just plain scum thought process.

Man, I'm starting to hate the woe is me approach to these things. A protown move would be to explain your actions and play it cool. People make mistakes, it's human nature. But to just give up and say "well, fine. Lynch me if you want to" doesn't help the town and doesn't help you stay alive. You're never in a Catch 22 as there's always a counter-argument. And besides, if someone keeps pushing you into a Catch 22 type environment, that might help find scum in itself.

But yeah, move to make addition to PJ's list of things he doesn't want to see: woe is me posts.

As for Bird, I didn't say you didn't acknowledge the point of voting, I said you look like you're setting up plausible deniability for the future if someone calls you on your voting patterns. By making "joke" posts and trivialising the purpose of votes in this game, you could be setting up a mechanism whereby you can say "hey, I'm the sort of guy that makes joke votes! Don't look at my record in too much scrutiny!"

Sounds pro-town actually. I believe it. Mert looks very pro-town here. In fact, he hasn't looked very anti-town at all. I just believe that his thought process doesn't follow a pro-town flow.

So we have MoS saying he won't vote, but his suspicions will be laid out in full and we should take note of his words rather than his voting pattern. Then, on the other hand, we have Phoebus saying he plays by gut and may not bother making cases against people, leaving only his votes to indicate his thoughts.

That's quite a tag-team.

Mert has been very consistent, which makes me think he may be pro-town, but I still can't get over the fact that Mert makes three full posts about the stupid LoE and the rules before he mentions MoS and then decides to continue to attack thereafter.

Can you make another list, this time specifically of people who have gone to the effort of downgrading a vote to a FoS?

I think this post has influenced my thoughts on Mert a lot. If Mert is scum, I don't know if he'd be able to make this post so quickly. It's incredibly accurate. Hm, almost makes me want to unvote Mert now. But I think that Mert has to own up to his previous posts first before I would be able to do that.

Mert can be pro-town, and I'd believe it in a second. He puts in a lot of effort to his analyses. But if he's scum, he's spectacular scum and that would deserve a standing ovation. But I still can't get over how his thinking process went in early Day one.

Dead Rikimaru

I think I pretty much outlined everything possible when I talked about him before. I found only five posts. But here's his first just for good measure

I will defend Glork today to the bone. He'll have some awesome moves (whether anti-town or pro-town) within time and even if he's scum, I will not vote him/suggest his execution because he'll have such an uphill battle to fight. He's going to try to live up to last Kingmaker so he's got a tough image to beat. Either he's going to have to look like a supremely pro-town townie or a supremely pro-town assassin. He's already so visible (ditto with petroleumjelly) that it'll be easier to sniff out pro-town and anti-town vibes from them later. I'd rather focus on sniffing out the less visible players this time even if it means everyone is going to vote and suspect me.

Vote: Pablito


I don't think anyone has even made any remotely legitimate case against me, and Pablito is already announcing that he'll staunchly defend me to the end of time*?

Buddying up, much? Setting an absurd standard of play just because of precedent?

Clearly this man is scum and needs to die.

heh, deja vu.

And Glork, no one's brought up a direct case against you, but before you even said a word, there was a heavy unspoken case against and for you. Until I know your alignment for certain, I'll advocate for your presence in the game simply because the pressure on you will make you work hard.

Fuck that.




I'm not trying anymore, and you can't make me.

Looks like pablito is trying too hard to look scummy, while Glork looks more and more annoyed.
Is this an extreme distancing technique?

As I said before, read my previous post to see my position on Dead Rikimaru. It's taking a lot out of not much, but it's the best anyone's said on him so far. I think that even if you don't agree with my position on Dead Rikimaru, a little pressure on him is well worth it.

spectrumvoid

Hi everyone. No point in random voting since the King is the only one right?

Like Mert before, spectrum is asking about random voting and its futility. pretty much useless, but it is her entrance into the game.

I'm leaning towards the side of box being scummy, because he added the vote after he was voted. However, I need to spend more time reading all the posts, so I'll decide tomorrow. Also nothing about Pab/Glork for now till I do the read.

Picking up on the main topics. spectrumvoid is choosing to only comment on the obvious topics. Although she is showing restraint in not passing judgment on pablito/Glork at that moment. Pro-town action.

Box. I'm not buying the newbieness. Playing on emotion is a scum-tell. Claiming when not under pressure is a scum-tell. Giving up is a scum-tell. vote: cardb0ardb0x.

This vote is justified but the timing is perfect because it redirects the town back onto cbox when discussion had waned on cbox. possibly scummy.

Wow. I really should start learning from PJ. In most games, after page 10 or so I usually make some big mistake. I finally went to read Kingmaker I, and I admire his analysis.

MMOS: Everyone is assumed to be protown until he/she does something that makes him look scummy. That's the way mafia works. Or else I could jsut go around randomly accusing anyone for the entire game. So the onus is on you to explain why he's scummy, not for me to show why he's town.

Argh... I didn't realise Fritz was here. He's on my blacklist of weird players.

Reading the first game at this point is kinda odd. Don't know what to think. Otherwise post is decent.

My take on pab: his play is really weird. I've been in a couple of games with him too, and he didn't play like that.

PJ: can you maybe post a LOE for us? I know you mentioned Bird and Phoebus, but its better to get a list of people we should discuss than go around attacking everyone. (This is one of my first large games where I joined from the start because I replaced in most where fewer people were alive, so correct me if I'm wrong.)

So far this is spectrumvoid's key post. Requesting the LoE got flak. Also, yeah, my play is weird, thanks for acknowledging it. Hm, spectrum has stayed belong the radar but still contributes. Perfect position to be for scum. Then again, spectrum did post she was busy/away or whatever, so that theory is whack.

unvote box Sorry for leaving it for so long, I just forgot I was voting him.

My vote on Phoebus stays, for exactly the same reasons as before.

I can't get a read on bird and CDB, because bird has just not been contributing much, but so have other people in this game.

vote: pablito I read him as someone who made a mistake, and now is trying to pass it off as a deliberate attempt. It seems insincere to me.

I don't get her vote on me. Seems a bit opportunistic. But that unvote on me later was pretty justified and pro-town.

Why 'even Thok'?

Sorry about that, I meant to say you need good reasons for accusing someone. (My defence: vote counts are so confusing this game... I went by tone of posts instead of vote numbers Sad )

Well, yes, his play could be different. But different play does not = scum or = town, it's just a matter of playstyle, not alignment.

Hm, this was in the middle of the vote rush. I found spectrum to have been pushing the LoE suspects all way too much, but then this above post sounds smart.

I think spectrumvoid could easily be scum. The fact that she hasn't stood out to me is alarming enough.

[pablito]

Did you notice at all that I did a re-read on you? Your defense alarms me.

[pablito]

EBWOP:

Whoa, time zone issues - so I will currently revoke my previous post until it's known when spectrumvoid intended

What a nice way to plant the idea that I'm scum into people's head. I anxiously await your reread for me to have reasons to respond to.

and

That was by pablito by the way.

.

These may have supposed to have been a day earlier than stated.

[pablito]

How about I not explain my vote and it makes you anxious and it pressures you to participate with content by Sunday?

And then perhaps once I see your posts then I'll explain my vote.

[pablito]

At first, I just found it scummy, but at some point it became obvious to me that he's doing it intentionally.

I think I pretty much said it explicitly at the end of day one. Just want it to be said so it doesn't look like CTD's having an aha moment but rather that he somehow managed to evaluate me in a new light.

Out of context his post actually looks scummy though because to assert that level of confidence on me would be wrong. But since I said it myself, that statement no longer looks as scummy.

[pablito]

Maybe those with homework assignments can finish those up. I did mine.

[pablito]

LuckayLuck made a decent analysis. Good for him. I like these thoughts. Especially since he pretty much put me at the top of the town list

[pablito]

I'm voting StallingChamp too

Mod note: Fixed

[pablito]

I think that MBL has a compelling but narrow-minded argument with

Sure thing. One definition would be, "When someone as high profile and controversial as pablito makes a 300 line long analysis post, you don't skim over it only to agree with a one-liner comment he makes about people not doing homework in his subsequent post."

I think MBL has a good point that Glork hasn't addressed my posts, nor many other homework assignments yet. I think the fact that Glork asked the questions and is mentally compiling the information is enough though. Also that definition of "aggressive pro-town curiosity" is a very good example but it's too esoteric actually.

Thus, Glork, the term "homework assignments" imply more that we hand in our assignments to you and you check them and grade them. But I'm wondering if you'd rather that act as a diving board into better town discussion. Because there's some good stuff we can analyze in some of these homework assignments (even moreso with the deliquent assignments), but no one's really tried to talk about them yet. Also, I think MBL has a good question - were you intending to talk about my latest posts? I have a better idea of where I stand with you, but I don't know if the rest of the town does.

[pablito]

MBL, you have a good analysis there, but it should also be pointed out that all three of the PJ, Glork, Pabs triad have purposefully been in the spotlight. PJ was first king, Glork was second and Pablito has explicitly tried to link himself to the other two (as well as most other highly visible players such as cbox and bird1111). Take it as you will, but I think it's painfully obvious that you and many others will try to link us together because of the way things have gone down. At some point one should wonder if one or more of us is scum, why be this visible?

[pablito]

Hmm, that reminds me that I've forgotten that I was voting Yos too.

unvote: Yosarian2, vote: Dead Rikimaru

[pablito]

Here's the point where I begin to significantly disagree with Glork. I do not think MBL belongs on the LoE and my current thought is that MBL is town and I haven't gotten scummy vibes from him in day two. I'm unsure what to think of Pooky because we haven't gotten much off of him lately, but I don't think he's the right play for today either. I've totally forgotten why I was suspecting Yos, but some of the recent arguments on him seem to be slightly convincing me. But nonetheless, I don't see a damning case against him. And me, I deserve to be up there for my erratic game play.

I think that Mert is a strong suspect and should be given a second look.

and whatever happened to the Twomz quasi-wagon? I thought people had strong suspicions on him but he suddenly dropped off the map. Is that because scum forgot about him or is it because we as town have failed to pressure him properly?

[pablito]

hmmm...and right now I'm going to cautiously

vote: spectrumvoid

as well. I can't find anything particularly uber-scummy, but on a quick re-read on spectrum's recent posts, I'm not getting good vibes from her.

Before my long winded re-read on six players, I mentioned that I was vaguely suspecting spectrumvoid and she responded with a trite and persnickety post how she was anxiously awaiting my long post so that she would have something to reply to. Since then she has not acknowledged that long post.

And I still can't get over how she voted Glork and how she's interacted with Glork. To me, voting and then quickly unvoting Glork may have been a way to show "hey guys look at me, I'm so independent in thought that I'm going to express that I think the king is scum! ha, you guys all think he's out of whack, but I'm going to actually vote him! look at me!" then "whoa, I don't want to anger him too much that he actually executes me so I'll quickly unvote". But while the vote the king dance move has been done before, it's never been done in that fashion. It felt artificial rather than natural and it felt so different. But most of all, I didn't see significant buildup toward that point. when others have done it they have followed through and they were obviously coming to that point. With spectrum, I felt it had no logistic progression.

[pablito]

Hmm, quite a quick response from a guy like you. Since it's all directed to me more or less, I'll comment to the best of my ability at the moment.

Here's the point where I begin to significantly disagree with Glork. I do not think MBL belongs on the LoE and my current thought is that MBL is town and I haven't gotten scummy vibes from him in day two.

*points at his case against MBL*

Then how do you explain the odd behaviour I outlined in my above post, which you fail to address?

Right now my stance on MBL is based on...I'll get flack, but... "GUT". I've also refrained from commenting on MBL's latest string of posts because well, I'm still taking it all in. He's got both good and awkward stuff in there, and I don't want to prematurely comment. I really don't feel like re-reading all of MBL right now, but off the top of my head, I don't remember anything from MBL seeming vaguely scummy. Your point against MBL is your opinion. But since it's easy to look at your case against MBL. I'll comment.

MrBuddyLee: I actually have a Town vibe listed from Post 171, but that was really all. I don't like how he's playing. At all. He attacked pablito, timmy, SC, cbox and Glork early on, then said pablito, Phoebus and MoS were being awkward, then made a list of execution containing Rosso, Twomz and CTD. Day 2 he voted Fritz and timmy.

He's posted strange stuff all game. He stated pablito was suspicious for changing a vote to a FoS. He tried to link Mert to Glork. He brought up the nutty nuts-theory. He tried to link PJ, pablito and Glork. He stated that PJ/Pooky/Glork should've died, not Thok. I also noticed a lack of interaction between him and Yos, which could be construed as distancing. I definitely think he's scum right now.

I'm ignoring the first paragraph. Yes, MBL has posted strange stuff, nothing there. Yes, I was suspicious for changing a vote to a FOS but I stated my case on that earlier. I do not think of MBL as suspicious just for pointing that out. Linking Mert to Glork is not a scummy activity. I'm not buying that theory, but I feel like that logic is sound. Linking the PJ/pabs/Glork triad is not anything new. Within the first 50 posts it happened because of my actions and I've pointed it out every single time as well. Pointing out things that seem painfully obvious is not scummy at all. MBL hypothesizing who the N1 kill should have been may be indicative of scum, but I'm choosing to not put much value in that comment yet. And "distancing" between Yos and MBL well that's subjective because one must assume Yos is scum to be able to believe that theory. And right now my stance on Yos is "he's not on my priority list of having to re-read him." In fact, too much of this game requires re-reading all the time and not having the complete search all posts by user function makes it difficult to complete such a task. So bah, I don't want to do it.

I'm unsure what to think of Pooky because we haven't gotten much off of him lately, but I don't think he's the right play for today either.

Is not getting a lot off him a reason to believe he's town? I'd rather put it as a reason to believe he's scum, as he doesn't seem to be interested in catching scum at all.

WTF? So not thinking Pooky is the "right play" is suddenly crying out that I think he's town? Things are not mutually exclusive. To make it clearer, Pooky is in my "not enough evidence

as of late

to be sure of his alignment" pile. Yos is in there too.

But right now, the above quote by Zindaras makes me wonder why he so suddenly jumped on my post and what's going on there. But using bad logic like that makes me feel he's more passioned townie than using intentional craplogic.

I've totally forgotten why I was suspecting Yos, but some of the recent arguments on him seem to be slightly convincing me. But nonetheless, I don't see a damning case against him.

Then do a reread on him.

When I care to do so. If you absolutely think I need to, then get Glork to request that I do yet ANOTHER re-read on him aside from the one that's been mostly ignored. Or better yet, Zind, you can also look back at my long post on Yos, Mert, spectrum, CDB, Riki and someone else I can't remember and realize that I was wavering on my stance on Yos back then and I'm only confirming that I still can't find damning evidence on Yos and thus my unvote and uncertain stance on him are justified.

and whatever happened to the Twomz quasi-wagon? I thought people had strong suspicions on him but he suddenly dropped off the map. Is that because scum forgot about him or is it because we as town have failed to pressure him properly?

I'm not picking up anything (towny or scummy) regarding Twomz, so I'm waiting eagerly for him to make a nice post.

well you agree, so no comment here.

And now for Glork's response which was also expedient and inquisitive.

1) Are you MBL's scumbuddy? Have you seen the repeated dismantling of his so-called logic? You say you "haven't gotten scummy vibes from him in day two." What are your thoughts on MBL from D1? Have you gotten "pro-town vibes" from him?

I believe that MBL is currently theorizing that I'm the top suspect for "nut-kicker". And my priority is not whether his logic is accurate or not, I care more that it feels that he's genuine with his suspicions and I believe he is. I obviously don't agree with his logic because I don't buy the nut-kicker theory, but it would also be a bit scummy if I was strongly against MBL. Overall, I find that MBL has a genuine "aggresive pro-town curiosity" or whatever that phrase is and that puts him as currently pro-town with me. I reserve the right to change my stance on him.

As for my thoughts on MBL from D1 and getting explicit pro-town vibes, I'd have to do a re-read on him and that will come later. I've done quite a lot of re-reading lately - in fact more than a lot of people - and I don't care to re-read more today or tomorrow. Perhaps after that, I will. I don't know yet.

2) Part of the reason I suspect Mert is because I see a very strong connection between Mert/MBL (and now Mert/Yos, as Zindie pointed out). If you take Mert/MBL out as evidence (since you think MBL is town), do you

This got cut off, and I respect that you see Mert as suspicious only in context of others. I presented evidence of Mert acting suspicious in context of MoS in which it was mostly uniteral interaction (or lack thereof). As I pointed out in my long six-suspect post - Mert completely failed to mention MoS even though he was ranting about odd voting styles. And his interactions early in D1 with others feels like he's intentionally hiding something and he's putting up a defense about him. I find that to be very scummy.

3) Do you realize how absurd your stance on Yos is? "I forget why I suspect Yos. But I like the arguments against him. But they're not damning enough." It's like you want to diststance from him but can't bring yourself to advocate getting him killed!

I think that a healthy forgetfulness about earlier happenings in D1 and early D2 is something that has happened with everyone. There have been crashes and lulls and it's been a while. Can everyone be certain of where they were aiming back in the middle of D1? I'm not so sure. Lucky for you though, I did bother to look back to my six-person post back a while ago. I found that I expressed that I wasn't certain on Yos. I don't find that inconsistent at all with my current thoughts. Surely it's a strong coincidence that Yos is on the LoE and Yos unvoted me as well, but at the same time, my thoughts and suspicions are

hardly

hidden. I've been extremely out there and I don't think I've held back much (one strong exception is the Glork-MBL interactions as of late and I've held off from completely reading those and I've only skimmed actually.)

4) Why are you bringing up Twomz now? Are you trying to turn attention away from you and your scumbuddies?


I have scrawled on a sheet of scrap paper the following list:
MBL
Mert
Yos
Pooky
Pablito?
CTD?
StCh?


I very firmly believe that there are multiple scum in this group. I'm guessing 6 scum in this game, and I suspect that as many as half of the scumbags are on this list.

I'm bringing up Twomz because I remember that in the intial D2 (pre-crash) everyone seemed to be voting both Pooky and Twomz for similar reasons - in fact I remember doing so. But suddenly things become isolated on Pooky. These posts may have been lost, but I was wondering if anyone wanted to re-initiate Twomz wagons. Also aren't a lot of people voting him? I currently don't think Twomz is scum, but I thought it could be interesting to see if people still think he's scum, why so and whether there are any unvotes once his name comes up again.

Also, I do not agree with the majority of your LoE and I have every right to want to discuss people not on the LoE so that we don't become so narrow-minded like D1. I carry the blame for D1 so I am trying to correct it by making sure thta we talk about people on and off the LoE.

Honestly, I like your short-list of scum, Glork. But I'm currently believing that there's more dirt on CTD, Stalling, and Mert than with the others.

But I think it seems to be a current theme that I've been pointing at people that are less visible and you're pointing to people that are more visible. So my priorities are very different.

[pablito]

btw, the last post I noticed before I hit submit was Glork's 776.

And for reference my six-person post is 649.

[pablito]

Glork I'll re-read MBL v. Glork by Wednesday at the latest and I'll post my opinion. Also if you want anything else I should re-read, please let me know, Glork.

[pablito]

"I'm here" post.

Sorry, no time to review the latest ongoings.

[pablito]

Everyone else needs to answer the following questions:

1. What do you think of Glork's current LOE? If you were king, what would your LOE look like?

2. If we were going to pick and execute one person on the current LOE, who would it be, and why?

We need everyone to comment on the person who gets executed and the LOE in general before any execution happens, otherwise we're never going to get any information.

I really hate not being able to post as much in games since I no longer have a home computer and I have many projects due, but I swear that around Dec 14th or so I'll have lots of time to post.

But since Yos asked, I'll answer although I may have already given my answers.

I think the LoE sucks. I don't think Pooky's the right play for today and I don't think there's enough right now to see where his alignment's at. However if we get some posts that we can analyze on him, then he might become the right play for today. I think that some of the reason people want him gone is due to some of the lost posts and some of it has to do about what he hasn't addressed rather than what he has addressed. So perhaps it's more frustration with him that might get someone to suspect him than true suspicion.

I think that emotions are pushing the tide over on MBL more than actual analytical reasoning. I feel that the reasons that are put forth for his execution do not take into account his entire gameplay here. I feel that MBL's attacks have been genuine and the feeling I get from him (

gut

) is that he's attacking from a pro-town stance. I know that he's tried to link together PJ Glork and me, but as I've said before, that's a link that's fairly obvious and it's nothing new. I still have to read the latest Glork v. MBL posts, but from skimming, nothing was extremely eye-popping for me. But I will revoke my current position on MBL if I see something on re-read.

Yosarian's on the LoE too I think. My last stance goes for him. I posted something when I unvoted him. I don't remember what got made him get attention from me or the unvote from me.

And I'm on there too. I don't think I belong up there, but I deserve to be up there for some of my antics.

And for number 2, if it has to be someone, it might as well be me to execute because I've been on both LoEs, so if you keep putting me up there you might as well just get it done and over with. However, I think you want me to choose one of the others - so that would be Pooky. I remember during the lost posts period that I chose to vote for Pooky and Twomz but explicitly remember not voting MBL over the nut-kicker theory.

My own LoE would consist of Mert, StallingChamp, Zindaras and bird1111 just for good measure. I'd include bird1111 just because discussion on him is a good thing and it will get people talking in one way or another and I'm still unsure on his alignment. The person I'm most suspicious of is Mert. I've laid out my case before. StallingChamp too. I was very suspicious of CDB and StallingChamp has done nothing to qualm my fears. I've recently become very suspicious of Zindaras. It's the way he entered. In some way I want to think that Zindaras did not want to do a total person-by-person analysis when he came into the game. I think that he felt compelled to do it because Luckay Luck did so. I don't get a healthy feeling when I see Zindaras posts, they feel more aggressive and they extremely lack restraint. Zindaras seems to be more focused on the offensive when he has no need to do so. It just seems very awkward and I don't get why he'd be attacking so early off of just replacing in. Maybe he's trying to avoid being Rosso by continuing with pressuring others (what Rosso failed to do) or that he's trying to protect his scum buds. But there's a strong difference between Luckay Luck and Zindaras, and I don't get where Zindaras is coming from. Maybe I'm biased because they have polar opinions on me.

[pablito]

Everyone else needs to answer the following questions:

1. What do you think of Glork's current LOE? If you were king, what would your LOE look like?

2. If we were going to pick and execute one person on the current LOE, who would it be, and why?

We need everyone to comment on the person who gets executed and the LOE in general before any execution happens, otherwise we're never going to get any information.

I really hate not being able to post as much in games since I no longer have a home computer and I have many projects due, but I swear that around Dec 14th or so I'll have lots of time to post.

But since Yos asked, I'll answer although I may have already given my answers.

I think the LoE sucks. I don't think Pooky's the right play for today and I don't think there's enough right now to see where his alignment's at. However if we get some posts that we can analyze on him, then he might become the right play for today. I think that some of the reason people want him gone is due to some of the lost posts and some of it has to do about what he hasn't addressed rather than what he has addressed. So perhaps it's more frustration with him that might get someone to suspect him than true suspicion.

I think that emotions are pushing the tide over on MBL more than actual analytical reasoning. I feel that the reasons that are put forth for his execution do not take into account his entire gameplay here. I feel that MBL's attacks have been genuine and the feeling I get from him (

gut

) is that he's attacking from a pro-town stance. I know that he's tried to link together PJ Glork and me, but as I've said before, that's a link that's fairly obvious and it's nothing new. I still have to read the latest Glork v. MBL posts, but from skimming, nothing was extremely eye-popping for me. But I will revoke my current position on MBL if I see something on re-read.

Yosarian's on the LoE too I think. My last stance goes for him. I posted something when I unvoted him. I don't remember what got made him get attention from me or the unvote from me.

And I'm on there too. I don't think I belong up there, but I deserve to be up there for some of my antics.

And for number 2, if it has to be someone, it might as well be me to execute because I've been on both LoEs, so if you keep putting me up there you might as well just get it done and over with. However, I think you want me to choose one of the others - so that would be Pooky. I remember during the lost posts period that I chose to vote for Pooky and Twomz but explicitly remember not voting MBL over the nut-kicker theory.

My own LoE would consist of Mert, StallingChamp, Zindaras and bird1111 just for good measure. I'd include bird1111 just because discussion on him is a good thing and it will get people talking in one way or another and I'm still unsure on his alignment. The person I'm most suspicious of is Mert. I've laid out my case before. StallingChamp too. I was very suspicious of CDB and StallingChamp has done nothing to qualm my fears. I've recently become very suspicious of Zindaras. It's the way he entered. In some way I want to think that Zindaras did not want to do a total person-by-person analysis when he came into the game. I think that he felt compelled to do it because Luckay Luck did so. I don't get a healthy feeling when I see Zindaras posts, they feel more aggressive and they extremely lack restraint. Zindaras seems to be more focused on the offensive when he has no need to do so. It just seems very awkward and I don't get why he'd be attacking so early off of just replacing in. Maybe he's trying to avoid being Rosso by continuing with pressuring others (what Rosso failed to do) or that he's trying to protect his scum buds. But there's a strong difference between Luckay Luck and Zindaras, and I don't get where Zindaras is coming from. Maybe I'm biased because they have polar opinions on me.

[pablito]

Zind, I don't really care to respond to your latest post.

And I'm not really sure I care to bother to even re-read the latest MBL v Glork argument that I'm supposed to have read a long time ago.

Last comment...everyone please pressure the lurkers and those who haven't caught up yet. We have focused almost exclusively on those who have been entirely visible but yet through all the crashes and lags, those who don't bother to participate may easily be scum who are actively lurking. We won't know for sure until we pressure them out.

unvote: all but Mert

[pablito]

Mod, vote count please?

[pablito]

Yeah, but I'm also trying to go beyond the mass prod. Once they come back, we can't let them slide back into oblivion. Chances are people will be prodded, respond "hey, I'm up for a MBL lynch and here's why: X Y Z" and no one will bother to say much else. I'm glad that Yos put up his two questions though because #2 will force people to focus on who their suspicions are instead of focusing on Glork's apparent lame-duck LoE. I'd prefer to not see anyone executed until we see a majority of answers on who people would place on their own LoE. Because it's way too easy to let everything slide right now because of the lag.

[pablito]

Don't forget to comment on me since I'm on the LoE too, that is if you're answering Yos' questions.

[pablito]

Here's a MBL v Glork analysis from pages 29-30 that I kept on referencing.

MrBuddyLee: my read is that he is a strong insightful player, I am leaning strongly townie.

MBL is reading "slightly townie" upon my read

I don't see that anything's happened in the interim other than Glork put me on his execution list. What's with the significant change of opinion, Luckay? This could be another example of what I pointed out, you trying to go with the flow so as to not piss off the King or other influential players.

This exhibits assertive pro-town curiosity. Then again, any examples of “pro-town curiosity” from MBL after he brought up that argument should be taken with a grain of salt. If someone points to a pro-town tell and then behaves in that manner, it can no longer be a pro-town tell.

Regarding my changes in suspicions: You, MBL, obviously piqued my interest towards the end of D1. You grilled me on why I didn't comment on Mert during my re-read and insisted that it was significant, which piqued my interest. I left of Phoebus mainly because I wanted to focus my own attention to where my highest personal suspicions were. Interestingly enough, Phoebus hardly picked up any attention D2. It makes me think that the wagon against him D1 was nothing but steam, and that Phoebus is probably pro-town. I don't even know why you're commenting on Bird1111. I said that he didn't really give me much either way. I never felt the wagon on him earlier. I didn't find his participation scummy. Thus, I didn't vote/suspect him. Is this... a bad thing? Regarding ChannelDelibird: I can't even remember what piqued me on him. I think I included him because he was the only person on PJ's list (at the time of my analysis) I wasn't opposed to lynching.



One thing makes me kinda curious, MBL. Suppose you were king, and you were going to execute one person of this PJ/Glork/Pablito group you seem to think you've found. Could you give sortof a "List of Suspicions" of the three of us? If you had to place a meaningful vote or make an execution now, how would you separate the three of us?
Consider this a "homework assignment" for you.

Also, have you been in any mountainous games other than this and Himalayan? I thought I saw something that piqued my interest, but I want to cross-reference before jumping to a possibly-erroneous concluison.

I don’t get why Glork points out the PJ-Glork-Pablito triad and what purpose his homework assignment served. Considering that I was the only one that Glork had currently suspected, I think that Glork was trying to gauge if MBL wanted me executed. I don’t think that question was the proper way to ask such a thing. And I think that the answer was fairly clear before the question was asked. MBL’s response explicitly stated that he found me the most scummy at that time.

Glork then pretty much makes it clear he suspects MBL the most because of his response and is just gauging scum pards.

I made that long post because the way yesterday's lynch went down didn't feel right to me, pablito's been downright bizarre, and it feels like Glork's throwing darts at a board as king today. I started by going back over PJ's posts from the end of D1 and more info kept turning up that appeared relevant. I'm not sure all three are scum or are connected. I just want to spit thoughts out in case over time they congeal into a big picture. Some of this evidence, for example, jives with the "bird's scumpartners kicked him in the nuts overnight" theory, because PJ and pablito were the primary nutkickers of bird end of yesterday.

This seems stream-of-consciousness and it makes me feel that MBL is just throwing out ideas. There is nothing conclusive in here. No matter what, it’s great maneuvering by MBL whether pro-town or anti-town.

PJ didn't have a choice about his kingship, and in fact, didn't approach it with his usual vigor. Glork explicitly stated that he wished he HADN'T been chosen king, so he's not willingly in the spotlight. And you--if you're scum you clearly made a choice at the start of the game to WIFOM this exact topic, which means you'd push this exact argument sooner or later. "I'm high profile, which scum wouldn't be."

There's no cop to fear, so high profile is not a terrible thing. Clearly it worked to your advantage last night, as you got the execution you and only you lobbied for.

These statements are all accurate. I’d like to point out the use of “night” and “execution” together. Because whenever I read this statement I always keep thinking…”and that’s why you’re still alive today”.

Also my statements always tend to be WIFOM and it’s pretty clear that from the beginning of the game, I’d push WIFOM statements. That’s enough reason to want to execute me despite it not being grounded in logical suspicion.

The next argument between Glork and MBL is about using the word “assassin”. It’s an intriguing “tell”, but I choose to not value it.

The rest is actually PJ v. MBL and both of them have grounded arguments, so basically it would be me saying “yeah, MBL has a point here, but I don’t agree with it, but it feels like he’s coming from a pro-town stance.”

You accuse PJ of failing to get the info necessary for a scum lynch. I don't understand how this applies. PJ asked for help. He made people well aware of his execution list/thoughts. Every player was well aware of the deadline and of PJ's requests. It is not PJ's job to force people to get online and post. You simply cannot apply the same kind of pressure near deadline in a Kingmaker game that you could apply in other situations. What should PJ have done, start putting random lurkers on his LoE? Go seek out people IRL and demand that they get on MafiaScum and post? It's true that PJ lynched a townie. Ultimately, a good portion of that responsibility rests on PJ. (Note, I disagree with you that the King bears the sole burden of a missed execution -- especially if we're talking D1/D2 and we have less info to go on. I find that sentiment to be quite scummy, and I'll note that part of the push by scumbags against TSS -- something that ultimately lead to BroomheadScum executing TSS -- was because he lynched a townie D1.) But I think he did what he could given what he had to work with. Because really... he had very little, relatively speaking, with which to work.

I wholeheartedly agree with this post and I think that I’ve gone further than this stance earlier by saying that the town bears most of the burden for a bad execution.

After that post, it seems that the big three of MBL Glork and PJ don’t address each other as much.

So basically my re-read on the MBL v. Glork really doesn’t enlighten me or anything like that. But there, it’s done.

Overall, MBL is pushing and that's a good thing. I can't be convinced he's scum because I think that his arguments come from him and not a scum viewpoint. That either means MBL is good scum and I've been blinded (a very likely case) or that he's town. But I'm more biased in finding lesser-profile mistakes from borderline-lurkers or inconsistent people. MBL's thought process seems to be consistent to me. I've found people who seem to be very inconsistent and aren't talking from a very good pro-town stance - I've pointed out those people. I might be wrong, but that's what I choose to focus on.


Oh and to respond to Zindaras about the player-by-player analysis. The reason I was questioning it was because it seemed so delayed and you were bothered by the homework assignment you were not given more than the player-by-player analysis. It wasn’t until later that you showed that you were going to do it. I don’t care if you do it in other games, but in this one, it did not seem apparent from your entry into the game that it was going to happen. That’s what tipped me off on that position.

[pablito]

Sad PJ isn't PJ anymore

how about, PJ is behaving in a way that differs from the concept of PJ that you have.
In this game, some players are being expected of a style/standard based on meta-gaming. And those people seem to be struggling to buck their image while still trying to deliver their best game.

While it's completely understandable that they're trying extra-hard in this game, it's very interesting to see how they've been coping/acknowledging this struggle.

While I don't necessarily agree with PJ's choices, I highly respect his chioce to choose people based on gut alone. And that may give us more information on PJ than his king-reign yesterday.

I would say pro-town, because it seems genuine exhaustion and he's recognized his priorities in his suspicions.

[pablito]

Also, thank you Glork - I respect those decisions.

I hope you were swayed more by your analysis and notes and not the fact that three people mad "unvote all but Mert" moves lately.

[pablito]

Nonetheless, DR was fairly specific when he was here the first time, and that's a looooong catch-up he can make.

I applaud him for returning to his original role.

And I'd be willing to wait for him to make an effort in catching up. Because that would make up for the very few posts that he made in his original stint.

[pablito]

I liked reading Pooky's post. It showed insight and it gave us a good indication of where he's coming from. It's not making me feel he's any more pro-town, but it's telling me that I look forward to more posts like that in the future. I suggest a stay of execution for now.

Although the replacements just got in, there is kinda a deadline, so I hope they say anything rather than waiting two days before deadline to post a full analysis. In other words, a partial analysis sooner is better than a full analysis later.

I'm saddened that Mert is still absent. But I still think he's our best lynch option. At least I've been pushing him since early D1 and he never convinced me he's pro-town since then. But is it worth it to wait for Mert to come back/be replaced and focus on others or are we simply (or rather, will the bandwagon that will ensue) gun for Mert because it's the least offensive and most convenient option right now?

And also, now that Mert's on the LoE, I'll vote some more suspects

vote: StallingChamp, Zindaras

who I've already said I'd like to see on my own version of the LoE (one of the questions Yos asked).

And whatever happened to people answering Yosarian's questions? Seems like that suddenly dropped off.

[pablito]

and a whole day without posts so close to a deadline? not productive at all. five days people. get to work.

[pablito]

Honestly, LuckayLuck. Even though I'm one of the biggest supporters for a Mert execution, your reasons are very unconvincing. You say that others who you like are arguing for a Mert execution. So? What reasons have you found independent of others' opinions to take out Mert? Or at the least, why have those reasons been of more value to you than anything else - since you're so on board for a Mert execution?

There are a lot of "unhelpful" people in the town still, so I'm not entirely convinced that you're on board the Mert wagon yourself. And Twomz and Pooky are easy picks, yeah, but Mert was not in isolation in choosing those two early on.

For wanting Mert dead so badly, your reasons are a bit off.

I think Luckay's analysis relies too much on the opinions he's created on people he considers townie, but hasn't truly seen the reasons behind his own opinion on scumminess. Even though Luckay was one of the people I used to find trustworthy, I'm not so sure he'd be the best king because he relies too much on other's opinions.

Honestly, in light of the deadline, I'm all for a Pooky execution. That one post was good, but it's not enough to justify not executing him over Yosarian.

I'd rather neither gets executed, but due to the deadline, something's gotta happen and I'd rather it be Pooky. Also, Mert has no replacement, and I don't know what to think of it.

I like Lowell right now. He's extremely misguided in some of his analyses (especially regarding his stance on the kingmaker), but he seems to have taken an independent thought on what he's seen so far. Which is the fresh breath of replacement that we need right now. Regarding the kingmaker stuff, I think the kingmaker has made decent enough decisions on who to make king and I'd rather we stay consistent with this kingmaker until more severe times arise. Wouldn't be good for a newly replaced player to have to jump into kingmaker mode because we outed our old one and s/he got NKed.

I hope to see posts soon from Samus and Nightfall as well.

[pablito]

So of 22 alive - these following have not yet made a significant post since the deadline. Three posted though, two just to check-in and the other at least let us know that there was a post coming, even if not today.

That least eight who haven't posted since the placement of the deadline.

And I think we definitely need to hear more from at least four of them if not more.

With three and a half days left, we need to tie up some loose ends and have more people contribute significantly.

bird1111
CrashTextDummie
Dead Rikimaru - made a promise to post during next day at the least.
Der Hammer (rep. Vaughn)
Fritzler
Mert
Nightfall (rep. UberTimmy) - checkin post only
Nightson (rep. Vikingfan)
Phoebus
Samus (rep. Twomz) - checkin post only
StallingChamp (rep. ChannelDelibird)

[pablito]

People, someone's gotta be executed - so choose.

You had every chance to bring a case earlier, but you failed to make a significant impact and follow-through with your case before we arrived at this deadline. There are few players who can honestly say that they pursued a path but failed to convince the king...MBL is the obvious example I suppose.

I can respect Glork's LoE right now even though I do not think that these two are the best execution candidates at this time. However, someone's gotta die if we want any chance - even if we think they're both pro-town. One or the other is going to give us more information, so who's it going to be?

I've already hinted at it before, but I would execute Pooky. His one post was nice, but I don't think it was great enough to save himself right now. I think Yosarian at the least has been consistent in attempting to answer questions and even proposed his own set of questions to everyone - so there's at least more research that can be done on Yos than on Pooky tomorrow if doubt still lingers. I find that Yos is slightly better to keep around than Pooky - all scumminess aside - simply because he's bothered to push around more generally than Pooky has (who offhand I only remember attacks against bird or Glork).

Tomorrow if I'm alive, something's gotta happen or I'm gonna go crazy at the amazing apathy this town is showing.

[pablito]

Yeah, you count too. I should too. Just that MBL is the most obvious example of someone who presented a case that was generally shot down.

Also, Scope's votes seem genuine to me, but I'm still not following the logic.

Even though there's only a 1% chance of it happening, I would love to be king tomorrow just so I can just throw shit around and start some controversy to get things moving better.

Or you know, Glork can do that too with his last minutes as king as well.

You know since we've got all of oh...pretty much TWO DAYS until deadline.

If Glork went off his LoE I could respect him more - even though his last post actually convinced me that he took his reign well and was actually trying to find scum. I am starting to buy his Pooky-Twomz wagon hypothesis somewhat valuable. But you know what, the fact that I'm saying this will probably fodder more discussion about how pablito's still trying to buddy up to Glork, so I need to shut up now.

[pablito]

I think the king already knows who he's going to execute, but keeping communication lines open until the deadline is important.

Zindaras, if you're going to bother to vote me at this time of the day of all times possible, please explain why you decided to vote now. You don't need to explain your case (because you did bother to give a reason - it's "gut" and I respect it) - but in the absence of posts of mine between your last post and this current one...that means you probably did a re-read. Then I have to ask why would you do a re-read on me this close to deadline - and why you wouldn't have done one on anyone else. Or maybe you did, but you're not disclosing this information. Or maybe you didn't do a re-read, then I have to wonder why you chose to vote at this moment rather than a previous one when you had a chance to do so - and even hinted at it.

Your vote is clearly motivated to send a message, and instead of just jabbing and hiding your reasons for this vote for tomorrow - when you'll probably bring out your big guns, I just want your motivation stated now. That's it.

[pablito]

no,

vote: Pooky

instead.

[pablito]

vote: LuckayLuck, olio

[pablito]

So, no more reasons for votes, eh?

You could ask politely and I could be arsed.

And how surprising, a replacement votes me.

[pablito]

How surprising, you completely ignore the fact that I was willing to show you reasons for my votes, but you so suddenly move to the other argument.

I say that's it completely justified for someone to vote me because all in all I appear scummy on first glance. However, when someone just does a read through and hasn't been following along with the game (which I'm assuming you had not been completely following along), a lot of things on me might get lost just because there are more alarming things I had done. The small things that can counteract the scummy vibes get lost.

As for the accuser to martyr thing. I'd been pretty loud about how the town failed to discuss things far enough in D1 and that a deadline had to occur. Ditto in D2. In 788, I actually make a long long post and yet you quote just a small bit. I did not intend to mean that I carried the SOLE blame for D1's lack of discussion. I, as part of the town, carried the blame for not discussing enough and not helping diversify the arguments. I think part of the fault for D1 was that we focused too heavily on certain people who acted awkward rather than trying to spread suspicion around - of course that's very difficult to do when there's lesser evidence than in future days. But in D1 after a certain point, we really didn't move away from the basic list.

olio, it's not like I was screaming at the top of my lungs, OH MY GOD, I'm HORRIBLE by supporting the execution of ROSSO CARNE. You take such an isolated sentence in such a long post and I think you're taking it way too far.

Furthermore, look at the quote you placed where I'm supposedly an "accuser". There are so many "we"s and "our"s but a complete lack of "you"s. When you said I was an accuser, it might have been in tone, but even in that post, I completely included myself as part of the town.

If

we

don't work hard enough during day,

we

cannot expect the king to make the best decision possible. I'm sure that doesn't address any of your points, CTD, but I feel it needs to be known that it's all of

our

fault that Rosso was executed, it's just that certain people, like

PJ (and likely me)

are more accountable for it.

And when I said PJ and me, that's because we were the only two (and Glork slightly as well if I remember off-hand), who advocated the Rosso execution. However, I still maintain that even though we were accountable and we practically signed our names on the document to have Rosso executed, it was still the fault of the town (and scum) in sitting idly during deadline and the rest of the day as well.

As for your other argument, well, I'd still like to be politely asked to answer. The above defense was just a favor since I'm voting you and all mostly based on your predecessor's actions. Plus it's a tougher argument and I'd have to think about it first.

[pablito]

Agreed, I can go for that,

vote: PJ

[pablito]

My primary reason for the vote on PJ lies on how his re-read turned out with such paltry suspects.

I'll get to your other argument olio, just not this post since I have to be off somewhere.

As for your last post, I just skimmed 788 earlier today, but I think I'll have to give it a re-read.

And I honestly don't understand what you're saying in

I fail to see a sensible scenario where you would've acted otherwise; I mean you not including yourself as part of the town.

I'd appreciate it if you or anyone else that gets it could re-word that.

[pablito]

I like PJ's answers, especially his explanation on SV. I'll still keep the vote on for now, but I'm suspecting that his re-read was not satisfying for me because my expectations for PJ are too high :p

[pablito]

Mod,

I'd like prods on Der Hammer, Samus, Nightfall and Mert please. Can anyone else think of who else needs a prod?

[pablito]

If Glork went off his LoE I could respect him more - even though his last post actually convinced me that he took his reign well and was actually trying to find scum. I am starting to buy his Pooky-Twomz wagon hypothesis somewhat valuable. But you know what, the fact that I'm saying this will probably fodder more discussion about how pablito's still trying to buddy up to Glork, so I need to shut up now.

Blatant attempt to save Pooky with "do this and I believe you, Glork". Contains also "Pooky-Twomz is scummy though" argument plus WIFOM in the last sentence.

Back in post 1060, I made it clear what I thought about the LoE and as a bonus, I also took on my personal case of chastising the town about not enough discussion.

People, someone's gotta be executed - so choose.

You had every chance to bring a case earlier, but you failed to make a significant impact and follow-through with your case before we arrived at this deadline. There are few players who can honestly say that they pursued a path but failed to convince the king...MBL is the obvious example I suppose.

I can respect Glork's LoE right now even though I do not think that these two are the best execution candidates at this time. However, someone's gotta die if we want any chance - even if we think they're both pro-town. One or the other is going to give us more information, so who's it going to be?

I've already hinted at it before, but I would execute Pooky. His one post was nice, but I don't think it was great enough to save himself right now. I think Yosarian at the least has been consistent in attempting to answer questions and even proposed his own set of questions to everyone - so there's at least more research that can be done on Yos than on Pooky tomorrow if doubt still lingers. I find that Yos is slightly better to keep around than Pooky - all scumminess aside - simply because he's bothered to push around more generally than Pooky has (who offhand I only remember attacks against bird or Glork).

Tomorrow if I'm alive, something's gotta happen or I'm gonna go crazy at the amazing apathy this town is showing.

Also, I had been pretty vocal D2 that Mert was my top suspect after my six-suspect post and sincerely wanted him dead. Now, I'm not so sure that he's the best suspect, just because we have more to look over. But also because some people, whom have jumped up in my suspicion list since learning about Pooky's alignment, were suspecting Mert yesterday. I obviously wanted Glork to move off the LoE because I wanted Mert gone. In fact, I think my vote on Mert was the only one that stuck throughout the entire day. I voted and unvoted all the others. I still have questions for Mert, but of course, I may never get them answered now. But I still find the fact that Mert talks about voting patterns but completely ignored addressing MoS as being very suspicious.

Also why I wanted Glork to go off his LoE was because a lot of his second-tier suspects (taking Pooky, Yos, pablito and MBL as his first-tier) were people I also strongly suspected such as Mert, StallingChamp and I think there was a CTD or someone else on there. Coincidentally, Mert was my big D2 suspect, and you olio have been my only hold-over vote. So of course I wanted Glork to go off his LoE because we both agreed on these suspects. I wanted him to go onto his second-tier suspects, not to something completely random. I suppose, though, I should be glad Glork stuck to his two-top suspects because it lead to an Assassin death.

As for the timing of everything (which is something I value a lot)...I made 1060 minutes before 1062. In 1060 I took a realist stance and advocated for a Pooky death (which I think I always stated that of the three others on the LoE I always noted Pooky as the most optimal execution). Then in 1062 I did manage to slip in the off the LoE comment. Obviously considering that I shortly asked Glork to go off the LoE, of course it looks scummy. I wasn't not the only, but that's not the point, I guess. I suppose I really can't say that that action looked pro-town. At least the "If Glork went off his LoE I could respect him more" part. I can understand how it looked like I was trying to divert away from a Pooky execution.

So then I'll defend myself by looking at how many times I bothered to say that Pooky was the best option of the LoE.

As for Pooky. Even before you Glork said anything, I had a gut feeling on him. But I can't give more of an argument than that. Something felt off. And interestingly, Rosso's comments made it even more visible. But as I stated before with Rosso's blurb, a Pooky death wouldn't give us any added information if he turns out town.

Here's the point where I begin to significantly disagree with Glork. I do not think MBL belongs on the LoE and my current thought is that MBL is town and I haven't gotten scummy vibes from him in day two. I'm unsure what to think of Pooky because we haven't gotten much off of him lately, but I don't think he's the right play for today either. I've totally forgotten why I was suspecting Yos, but some of the recent arguments on him seem to be slightly convincing me. But nonetheless, I don't see a damning case against him. And me, I deserve to be up there for my erratic game play.

I think that Mert is a strong suspect and should be given a second look.

and whatever happened to the Twomz quasi-wagon? I thought people had strong suspicions on him but he suddenly dropped off the map. Is that because scum forgot about him or is it because we as town have failed to pressure him properly?

WTF? So not thinking Pooky is the "right play" is suddenly crying out that I think he's town? Things are not mutually exclusive. To make it clearer, Pooky is in my "not enough evidence as of late to be sure of his alignment" pile. Yos is in there too.

I'm bringing up Twomz because I remember that in the intial D2 (pre-crash) everyone seemed to be voting both Pooky and Twomz for similar reasons - in fact I remember doing so. But suddenly things become isolated on Pooky. These posts may have been lost, but I was wondering if anyone wanted to re-initiate Twomz wagons. Also aren't a lot of people voting him? I currently don't think Twomz is scum, but I thought it could be interesting to see if people still think he's scum, why so and whether there are any unvotes once his name comes up again.

Everyone else needs to answer the following questions:

1. What do you think of Glork's current LOE? If you were king, what would your LOE look like?

2. If we were going to pick and execute one person on the current LOE, who would it be, and why?

We need everyone to comment on the person who gets executed and the LOE in general before any execution happens, otherwise we're never going to get any information.

I think the LoE sucks. I don't think Pooky's the right play for today and I don't think there's enough right now to see where his alignment's at. However if we get some posts that we can analyze on him, then he might become the right play for today. I think that some of the reason people want him gone is due to some of the lost posts and some of it has to do about what he hasn't addressed rather than what he has addressed. So perhaps it's more frustration with him that might get someone to suspect him than true suspicion.

Yosarian's on the LoE too I think. My last stance goes for him. I posted something when I unvoted him. I don't remember what got made him get attention from me or the unvote from me.

And I'm on there too. I don't think I belong up there, but I deserve to be up there for some of my antics.

And for number 2, if it has to be someone, it might as well be me to execute because I've been on both LoEs, so if you keep putting me up there you might as well just get it done and over with. However, I think you want me to choose one of the others - so that would be Pooky. I remember during the lost posts period that I chose to vote for Pooky and Twomz but explicitly remember not voting MBL over the nut-kicker theory.

I liked reading Pooky's post. It showed insight and it gave us a good indication of where he's coming from. It's not making me feel he's any more pro-town, but it's telling me that I look forward to more posts like that in the future. I suggest a stay of execution for now.

I'm saddened that Mert is still absent. But I still think he's our best lynch option. At least I've been pushing him since early D1 and he never convinced me he's pro-town since then. But is it worth it to wait for Mert to come back/be replaced and focus on others or are we simply (or rather, will the bandwagon that will ensue) gun for Mert because it's the least offensive and most convenient option right now?

And also, now that Mert's on the LoE, I'll vote some more suspects vote: StallingChamp, Zindaras who I've already said I'd like to see on my own version of the LoE (one of the questions Yos asked).[/size]

Honestly, in light of the deadline, I'm all for a Pooky execution. That one post was good, but it's not enough to justify not executing him over Yosarian.

I'd rather neither gets executed, but due to the deadline, something's gotta happen and I'd rather it be Pooky. Also, Mert has no replacement, and I don't know what to think of it.

I guess it wasn't as clear as I thought. But in regards to Yosarian vs. Pooky it always seemed to me that I was unsure of Yosarian, but he had pro-town aspects and with Pooky it was just that I didn't think there was more than gut to go off of with him. Even after Pooky's post I wasn't completely convinced.

And as for reasons for my votes. Well, I vote olio strictly off of his predecessor's actions. Channel Delibird piqued something in my interest (which I've stated before) and StallingChamp never put me at ease. And you olio, well you're not gaining any pro-town posts with me - but I do like your other two votes at the moment, so my stance on you could change. I suppose my stance can only change based on what I see from you today.

As for LuckayLuck. AmeliaSlay always got my gut going for some reason. I think I voted her in D1 for some stupid reason, I don't remember off hand.

PookytheMagicalBear: I really liked your early posts day1, especially your small rampage on posts 68-72. I marked down slight townie for that. Then as the day went on, I didn't find anything that I really liked. Then everyone started suspecting you a bit. I'm not at the point where I suspect you yet, but I'll keep my eye on you in the future in particular, since you probably have a lot of good insights and/or will be hard to catch as a mafia.

That's his original entry post, of course I've always thought LL has been townie up until he gave awkward reasons for voting Mert and then again once we learned Pooky's alignment. Of course, this might just be awkward feeling rather than getting scum vibes. I think LL needs a bit of pressure, nonetheless.

When LL revealed his MS Excel-tastic post, Pooky suddenly came up as a 5 ???? - This is a bit different than his above post or his stance on those on the LoE. Of course, this looks like a natural progression, but interesting to see.

But what caught my eye was how quickly LL moved to his "unvote all but Mert" stance after I did as well. We all know however that LL takes the stance that he trusts certain pro-town players and often follows their suspicions and we know that in the past LL has considered me pro-town. So this is not surprising. But it is something I could see scum as doing. And I'm not really feeling comfortable having a stalker right now (I know, ironic, huh?). I guess it was at that point, that I stopped my "defend Glork to the bone" stance, because if it wasn't obvious by now, I feel both PJ and Glork have enough history in this game alone. And plus, I feel I have to defend myself enough, I don't have enough time to follow with that previous strategy.

I find that it's easier to sum up why someone is NOT scum. Your LOE is currently Pooky/Yos/Mert, so I'll say why Pooky and Yos aren't scum.

for Pooky, I'm not sure, as he's been relatively inactive - but he's back(?) now and came back with a good post. So you can't execute him.

Yos in three sentences:
Several of the people I consider very very townie argue specifically against a Yos execution. You can say that this is a slippery slope, but I am willing to go down this path. Also, Yos's arguments while on your LOE while being one of your top suspects don't quite make sense as scum: he pushes for Twomz and Phoebus, two people that aren't/weren't even on the execution list, and his defense style is just one that is townie.


Mert in three sentences:
Similarly, a lot of people I consider very very townie argue specifically for a Mert execution. Reading his posts, in day1, Mert did not accuse anyone of scummy behavior but rather for "unhelpfulness" - which is something I consider scummy. In day2, he similarly conveniently chose two easy picks: Twomz and Pooky.

I don't agree with how quickly LL trusted Pooky and even went so far as to reverse his previous stance. It just happened so easily. But of course, as we know, anyone that makes a post that looks like one that LuckayLuck would make, he falls in love and can't fall out of it.

That's my case if anything. It's mostly that his reliance on "pro-town players" is just too scummy right now. I've seen it in other games though, so I don't know just yet.

[pablito]

I haven't been following MoS much, so without re-reading his posts, I don't know what to say about this recent discussion.

SV - Regarding your LL/MoS pairing. There's evidence for it in that alone exchange from LL. But LL has linked himself to several players before, so I don't find it knew.

and I think I'll vote

vote: Nightson

because it's in these days. Also I remember doing it before for some reason or other.

I'll be out until the 12th.

[pablito]

My top three:

Mert - I have been on him pretty strongly, and I'm not sure what to think of his absence and all. However, I feel it was pretty damning evidence that Mert talked a lot about strange voting patterns and completely ignored addressing MoS. I found that to be extremely scummy. If it so happens that MoS ever turns up scum and Mert or his replacement is still alive, Mert or his replacement must be examined closely. My suspicion on Mert has dropped since mid D2. However, I think a lot of it had to do with specific reactions to Mert and who had earlier jumped on the Mert wagon. But I think I have to stick with my gut and continue saying that Mert is scummy.

olio - I found CDB to be extremely scummy, and olio coming into the game and attacking me right off the bat only cemented my feelings. However, as of late, olio makes a lot of sense so I'm not entirely sure what to think. The way he attacks me seems pretty genuine, and that's something I hadn't gotten from the little that CDB and Stalling gave me.

LuckayLuck - I've only recently started suspecting LL since N2. When Pooky came up as scum, my thoughts immediately veered toward LL because of the way LL treated Pooky and shifted thoughts so quickly. However, I'm still trying to evaluate whether this was because LL tends to believe people who give townie-looking long posts or if it's some scuminess. And with the way that LL gave his last votes, I'm starting to doubt that LL is scum - however, that's the best of my suspicions and therefore LL is on my list. But LL consistently seems to be following me, and it's strange and it could be tainting my view of LL.

[pablito]

I would like to see LL's assessment of olio/StallingChamp.

[pablito]

I don't like doing this with Mert being absent, but for consistency's sake,

vote: Mert

[pablito]

I don't get this. Why are we becoming so complacent and already deciding on who we want to see executed? Why aren't we discussing more and diversifying our arguments? Props to Dead Rikimaru for asking for prods and replacements. Right now however, I think there's just so much to talk about. Glork just executed an assassin, but I don't see that discussion has picked up because of it. One would think we have more evidence to pick off another assassin, but it seems that we've settled on candidates based on reasons other than how they reacted to Pooky or vice versa. Why aren't we discussing this or at least explaining why we are deciding not to? I liked Glork when he was under pressure, I don't like him so much anymore now that he's only been toggling between Yos and MoS. I think he's got very good arguments, but I feel he's helping (along with Yos) to pigeon hole us into very specific topics for today when there's just so much we could talk about.

And again, too many lurkers. I like PJ for voting Der Hammer, but I don't feel comfortable enough yet to remove my PJ vote. There's quite a few questions we could be asking based on everyone's top three lists, and there's a few outstanding questions that haven't been answered but no one's bothering to follow up. I honestly don't have a clue where to go off of (the hypocrisy!), but I mean someone's gotta have something, right?

That being said, I can go for a

vote: MoS

because I agree with the arguments against him and it fits in with my hypothesis against Mert.

Eh, I just like harping on the process don't I. But it just seems like the same seven or so people with the rest just popping in every once in a while.

[pablito]

Could you please re-state or summarize why you still feel Mert is scummy? I think it's only fair that RafK be able to address some of these issues -- even if he cannot get inside Mert's head and explain Mert's actions (or nonactions) perfectly, I think it would be every interesting to hear your cases against him and to see what sort of response he can put together.

I was just ready to write up my post and all, but then I realized that LL often piggybacks on my arguments because he has previously stated that he trusted me. I think it would be best if LL writes his answer first and I'll post my second. Also, I am curious to see what Mert issues LL decides to address. However, if many people would like me too, I will post mine first. I will admit that RafK can help answer my questions about Mert's actions though. And I could be convinced to unvote if RafK explains himself well.

[pablito]

Don't worry, analysis of you will come pablito, you needn't prod me for it.

I'm not sure where this is coming from. Earlier you mentioned

I didn't like Pablito a hell of a lot on day 1 either.

That's a very justifiable statement. Even I can mention that I didn't like how myself on D1. However, it's a statement I and you can make independent of my alignment or your alignment. Then now the tone of the quote on top makes me wonder if you're now suspecting me heavily rather than just a little (which is what I'm expecting anyway), but I don't get the "prod" part.

I have been preparing to address you, RafK since you replaced in. But please notice that I had not yet posted between the moment when you replaced and when Glork addressed a question to me. Glork in no way "prodded" me. I would've addressed things anyway, independent of what Glork said (nonetheless, I will usually listen to Glork's requests). However, when Glork prodded LL, then I chose not to answer right away. I do have a response and a few questions already in a post for you, RafK. And actually, none of it has to do with Mert's lurking. All I have to do is copy-paste once LL responds first. Since I am suspicious of LL at the moment, I think it's only proper that I wait for him to respond first. I would hope that's a pro-town move.

That little veiled comment in there is what's going to make sure that I don't remove my RafK for a little while. It's painting me in a bad light in a subtle jabbing statement. It is something that I see scum doing. Furthermore, the fact that you, a replacement, suspects me, well it does nothing to qualm my fears. And the fact that PJ just called you pro-townish isn't going to help me either.

[pablito]

mod

a prod on LuckayLuck, please?

I'm just itching to reply to Glork and RafK and I'd rather not before LL does.

[pablito]

Well I guess here's my discussion on Mert/RafK and by proxy it happens to be LuckayLuck's as well (which I do begrudgingly):

I'm going to use a lot of my old posts, because they describe my suspicions on Mert/RafK well. Also, the crux of my argument on Mert relies on what I posted in my six-player post in post 649.

vote: Mert

Mert is trying to look like he's some defender of justified voting styles or something when in reality he's just pushing around the stupid wagons that have nothing to do with actual scumminess. He's just pushing suspicion on people who have decided to abandon "traditional voting". Voting by gut, not voting at all and making joke votes aren't inherently scummy (frustrating, though, yes), and they're some wagons that can pick up speed very very fast. The whole argument is about trying to "hide their true intentions" because we have no paper trail. But Mert is also trying to hide his true suspicions by voting cbox - who is way too easy of a vote to show his true suspicions and voting based on a set rule (those who refuse to vote how he votes). I think it's scummy to vote based upon a "rule". And then he tries to pair up MoS and Phoebus which I really don't understand.

Mert talked a lot about every single odd voting style except for MoS' non-voting. But then Mert finally bothered to talk about it later, but did so while pairing MoS with Phoebus. Since Mert liked to talk a lot about random voting and other crap, I find it hard to believe that Mert would have not chosen to talk about non-voting as well. It's not the content of the discussion that's scummy at all, it's the chronology. Mert's posts in context of the discussion that was occuring did NOT follow a logical progression in my opinion. Mert was pushing specific arguments that looked tailored to his own desires, not discussions that were exclusively beneficial to the town at that point in time. It just seemed that Mert's contribution to the discussions was not what I would've expected.

Mert to me appeared to be distant and cold in his unspoken thought process. It just felt too mechanistic and too rigid. Even though he never explicitly stated it, he had a system for voting people which I pointed out earlier when I first voted him. I feel that true town players will evaluate case by case and not rely on certain criteria to become alarmed. Mert's thought process (as I interpreted it) did not feel pro-town at all. The way he approached the town had a town feel to it, but it smelled scummy to me. Again, it's not necessarily the content of his posts, but the information that he chose to glean from town discussion. In day two, his posts (I think most were lost) feel more genuine and that's why I haven't really pursued continuing with him. He's still in the back of my mind though. I think either Mert has more information to go on and is thus presenting himself better, or that he knows he's at stake and has to wisen up. Also he's becoming more visible, and it seems that once that happens, I ease up on them and let others decide how to gauge him.

Mert tried to talk a lot about every single odd voting pattern but never explicitly said that's what he's focusing on. I felt that at that time in D1, he could have bothered to look at people on a case-by-case basis instead of fad-voting for Phoebus and cardboardbox and all those whoever he voted. I feel that externalizing his locus of voting is a good scum tell. Mert tried to vote anyone who did some awkward voting. He made a criterion that he mentally kept up with and didn't really stray from.

In my 6-player post, I point out that Mert baited a discussion about the LoE very very early. I felt that the chronology of it might have been to distract people away from MoS, of whom Mert didn't really address until late and also tried to hide his mention of MoS. On retrospect, there's a lot of Mert protecting MoS. I'm going to throw them out as possible scum partners.

Therefore, I'd like to know what RafK thinks about MoS and Phoebus currently.

But if RafK could give anything about why Mert was more interested in talking about LoE processes than MoS, then that'd be awesome. That's in posts 42/44->104->155 (but not exclusive to these posts)

Then, as well, what does RafK think about odd voting processes, like voting by gut, never voting, joke-voting, the "unvote all; vote: X" manuever, or only voting people that are on the LoE.

[pablito]

I kinda like this mini-wagon on LL, because yeah, I suspect LL. But at the same time, I wonder how much of the voting is going on because no one understands LL's MO and are attacking his playstyle rather than his level of scumminess. Chalk one up for the sphinx. I don't think that proxying is inherently scummy. It is a bit eyebrow-raising right now though, but it's still nothing new. LL has been very clear that he's proxying. The manner in which he's doing it now is suspicious, because it's relying more on mechanics than feeling. And that's scummy, I will admit, but it's not entirely new.

And you have to admit that LL is continuing with his proxy style and pointing toward it is bringing further attention to the act. And that could get WIFOMy. So SV suddenly adding LL is a bit too convenient for my tastes, at the moment. But I still like my top 3 though.

[pablito]

Oh wait, I misread your list. My mistake, just like the redheads trying to chase the boyband. LL was to the middle of your list, not a new addition, right?

[pablito]

Ok, so the progression of SV's top three goes as such:

Top 2: Glork, Yos, and any lurker would be ideal.

Remove Glork from my LOS.

My top: I can see a MoS execution.
My 2: CTD.
And like before, lurkers.

Last addition to the MIDDLE of my list (it's MoS, XYZ, any lurker): LL.

I was confused by the mention of middle and I got confused with the whole progression. Now I see it. And considering that SV did mention a MoS+LL scum pair in early D3, it seems to be a logistical progression.

ake a look at open 4, where IH (scum) posted a whole chunk of long posts and PBPAs as proof that long posts aren't necessarily pro-town.

LL: About the bit you quoted and FOS'd yourself, I did use it in my player analysis.

I'll shut up about MoS till he says something.

Possible scum-pairing: LL + MoS.

Zindaras (reference post 1154): Quit using meta-gaming as an excuse for not getting Pooky. Your defense for thinking pooky's long post is town is meta-gamish. (As in, you don't know his playstyle because you've never played with him before.) Meta-gaming is too unreliable.

I'm still curious as to why keeping in the generic "lurker" is important for SV to keep in the top 3. SV has explained fairly well why Glork and Yos fell out of the top 3, but I think that CTD wasn't well explained yet. I'd like SV to answer why she hasn't put a top 3 of MoS, LL and CTD then. Why does the lurker beat out CTD? I think that's why I call it a bit too convenient, but not too far enough to call it scummy.

I'll have to look into this possible MoS-LL pairing that SV has brought up, actually.

[pablito]

Would CTD qualify as "any lurker" then? I'm still wondering why it has to be "lurkers in general" rather than "CTD and Nightson are lurkers, and probably them". I'm not asking you to clarify, but what's the reason for not singling out any specific lurkers?

[pablito]

Hmm, I'd like to defend SV at the moment. The way that her top 3 has progressed has been very natural and comes from a pro-town stance. The way that she dropped CTD and put in LL in the stead went in a logical unstated progression. And furthermore, SV had to be prompted to recognize how CTD fell off the list. I feel that a SV-scum would have simply went from a top 3 of "MoS-CTD-lurker" to "Mos-LL-CTD" or would have dropped the lurker part and went back to either Yos or Glork. The way that SV's rotating through suspects, well I feel it's coming from a healthy pro-town aggressive stance (to use those words from MBL). When SV poked Glork, I felt it was an appropriate time to do so and even I harbored some doubts about Glork when it happened.

I know it's kind of a weak-defense, but I'm trying to put into words how my gut feeling is working at the moment. And I'm trying to say that SV's actions reflect the thought process of a natural progression. I often find that scum do not always properly back up their arguments and build up toward the end result. But I feel that SV's progression builds up properly. While that's not always indicative of pro-towniness, I'm going to say so. And that's especially because I remember off-hand PJ voting for SV for being strong on the Glork-provoking early on.

Also, I checked last vote count, I want to

unvote: Nightson

because that's obviously not helping him to come back.

In fact,

mod

could we get a vote count?

[pablito]

MO as Modus Operandi?

Yeah, that, or else his Mandibular Ossicles.

And RafK, what do you think about LL and my arguments against you?

[pablito]

Well I did address some questions to you, and that by you answering those questions, I could get a better read on where you are.

[pablito]

Well, I think we're piling onto DragonsofSummer quickly. But I think it's a must for us.

Time for me to join in.

LL- For reasons stated by various others throughout the thread.

DOS, you realize that LL is guilty of proxying his votes and reasons to others and that's oner eason why he's being voted. Therefore if you're "proxying" the reasons for suspecting LL, it's a bit of a hypocritical move.

[pablito]

Toaster Strudel seems to have read the thread and seems to have a reasonable read on people. Toaster Strudel, would you like to submit your top 3 suspects list at the moment?

[pablito]

**Pressuring lurker alert!**
Zindaras, LuckayLuck and Lowell need to come back and post some when they can.

[pablito]

Lowell, you didn't have a third for your list. That's cheating. Please tell us what you're thinking.

Also, Lowell, what do you think about spectrumvoid's extreme top3 changes during D3? I mean, going from Yos and Glork to MoS and LuckayLuck? That's gotta be something that gave you a reaction, right?

[pablito]

Awww... <3

You make me want to unvote you, but will you just accept an autographed Pablito picture instead?

[pablito]

I think CrashTextDummie needs replacing.

[pablito]

Der Hammer needs a strong poke as well, but doesn't look like we need replacing there.

[pablito]

boo...booo on you Kingmaker.

What happens if the King needs to be replaced?

[pablito]

Well in the meanwhile, everyone can at least look at Dead Rikimaru's list and, at minimum say if his section on you is true. If you want to dispute anything on his list, you should say it now.

I still have to read the entire list, though.

[pablito]

I disagree with Dead Rikimaru's analysis of me except on the following points:

D1
- agrees with the loe and with all power to the king 89

I said I could live with the LoE, but I'd support even more the king taking unilateral control (look, I did that too later during D2 with Glork...ooooh, consistency!)

- prefers yosarian dead over pooky 1088

In 1088 it's only

no, vote: Pooky instead.

Otherwise it's a very comprehensive list, and it shows that I did a lot of things before they even came to be fashionable.

Which of course, sorry to say, I like Shanba's post because it appears that he went through a really good thought process and came up with things independently, but I can't help but think we have a subconscious proxier here in our hands. The process looks real, but the ends of that process look suspicious. I find it very convenient that Shanba came up with votes on MoS, SV and RafK at the end.

Especially that RafK vote. Basically it was, I didn't like Mert but suddenly RafK pops up. I still maintain that Mert was opportunistic and thinking like scum, so suddenly when RafK gets provoked and starts speaking, only then do people start suspecting that role.

[pablito]

So really, Dead Rikimaru goes through the trouble of making and posting all those comments and you guys (not all of you, but there's a lot) can't be bothered to look or comment on what he's said?

Seriously, if you're going to comment on his inactivity or lack of hammer, then at least do something with what he's given you. Dead Rikimaru may be lagging, but he's hardly unpassionate.

It'll help him make his decision quicker if you can process and discuss in the same manner as how he would like to proceed.

[pablito]

bah, I'll join the crowd. After realizing that the game started in september, I think we ought to move somewhere. At least I tried to respect the king's wishes before I got fed up.

[pablito]

Well really, I can't imagine many reasons why the kingmaker chose Dead Rikimaru...

But I'm sure if the kingmaker wanted a specific result, I'm sure I know why.

[pablito]

PJ, what was the point of mentioning that you'll be keeping all previous votes? I didn't see the need to say it but you chose to do it anyway?

[pablito]

PJ, you really want to adhere to the four votes or fewer at the time so badly that you'd mention it when you voted for a king? I find it unnecessary, but if you find it that important to do so, then you have every right.

I find that scum tend to overjustify votes and add unnecessary language to make themselves look better when they vote. PJ used language that I thought might fall into that category. And his explanation of why he used such language doesn't put me at ease. Considering how long it's been that he's made a vote, I'm a bit surprised that he remembered such. Thus, I felt the need to question the language.

[pablito]

Duly noted. Better explained. I just wanted to hear that you were looking at your notes when you did it, because that was the only explanation that would put me at ease.

[pablito]

vote: deadline

or mass replacements.

[pablito]

I think no matter where the game goes, we need a deadline. That way if we do continue in some manner, at least we don't have to wait those few extra days to find out that DR is still not coming back. And if the game continues in a different manner, oh well, the deadline still won't affect it, or at least it can be rescinded.

[pablito]

So...you guys are going to expect Smashy to wade through pages and decide on a lynch target by himself all before deadline?

Someone hurry up and say something stupid so that you get executed and it makes the decision earlier.

I suggest that we start by having LL, MoS, SV, Dragons and Yosarian try to reason away why they have the most votes on them at the moment. Because really, to someone just coming into the game and not having previously read, that's gotta be the most eye-popping thing so far.

I recommend looking at Dead Rik's last few posts. It's a good catch-up read at minimum.

[pablito]

LL, isn't it a bit ironic that there are actually

two

people who are on both Glork's and PJ's lists? Did you forget that you're the other person aside from Der Hammer?

Thus - explain why you singled out Der Hammer aside from the sole reason that he appears on two peoples' lists.

[pablito]

Der Hammer, do you care to admit that was an OMGUS vote or is there more?

[pablito]

Umm, LL if you're executed and you show up town, then how in the great name of logic does that clear the three of us as townies? I'd like that and all, but that's not helping your case.

[pablito]

As much as I want LL to be a townie, I fear that's a resignation post. He must be resigning from being "Chief Executive Proxier".

Ahhhh, LL, still love ya. You proxied me well in mini 368 fwiw.

[pablito]

LL, the fact that you keep coming back and saying something, even if it isn't the best defense, well, that's comforting me. I'd unvote, and all, but PJ's unvote just isn't putting me at complete ease and I'd rather wait things out, first. If it weren't for salmonella destroying the entire panhandle and making the jerseys new, you know?

[pablito]

What is it with you and coming up with completely nonsensical sentences?

Dunno. Something about English not being my first language.

PJ, I still suspect you, something about gut. Not tripe, but gut. And you unvoting LL, well, it just feels off to me. It either means you're actually pro-town or you're actually scum trying to look really townie. But unvoting LL at this particular juncture, well, it makes you look townie. And your logic makes sense and all. But it also looks like it progressed unnaturally.

Also, I just realized that I have the order of events wrong. You unvoted and then skimmed LL and then asked questions. I remembered wrong. I thought you had skimmed, unvoted, then asked questions.

So maybe I'm reading you wrong with an unhealthy anti-PJ bias.

Either way, I support keeping LL alive. I think he could be arsed to care about this game. And I think he can be arsed to make a contribution rather than proxying. Just give him time. He's a good kid at heart, he just knows how to pick out people that look pro-town. If we train him, I'm sure he'll develop the skills necessary to succeed.

And finally, tripe is good if you season it right.

[pablito]

Bah,

unvote: LL

forgot to do that.

Like I have the memory of a hemmorhaging peanut.

[pablito]

Yeah, my issue is the flow of the progression. It feels off.

I'm not trying to invoke "too townie" or at least I didn't try to, because honestly, I haven't been exposed to it before.

The difference is skimming=research. What invoked the research plays heavily into the progression.

I originally thought you did research->unvote rather than unvote->research. Scummy is #1, townie is #2. Because researching and then unvoting shows that you prematurely wanted to convey that you knew you were going to unvote and wanted to present evidence to support your point. Unvoting then researching shows that you unvoted off of some sense, maybe we might want to call it tripe, we might want to call it gut, we might want to call it something else, but whatever LL did made you rethink things. But I'm not going to call it logic, because LL hasn't presented any explicit logic in defense. I'm not saying it's bad, but I'm saying that whatever LL did to make you unvote him has more to do with how he appears/behaves than what he just said. But whatever happened it caused you to skim him over and ask him some questions. That shows pro-town curiosity. I still haven't figured out if it's a pro-town healthy assertive curiosity, but the progression looks better than what I originally remembered it as.

And yes, I'm not feeling LL as scum too much anymore. He feels right, but my logic tells me he's done so much wrong. And I think I'd rather think of him as townie.

Also, I don't like guarantees.

So, I don't know how I appear in my last post, but mostly it's just rambling and crap. Stuff like that there. Maybe I'm just pushing your buttons.

[pablito]

I'm not a bit fan of executing either SV or LL.

I found that both looked townie after some moves. SV progressed from one top 3 to a completely different one - that shows that SV was able to critically look at some arguments/evidence and develop new cases or figure out why her previous cases were not well-developed. LL just reeks townie, it's just that he has previously defended/proxied at inopportune times. LL came into the game with a bang and a very strong profile, and thus, I agree, it makes LL much easier to read. Furthermore, LL is very willing to take some extreme or unfavorable points. SV does as well, but she hasn't it done it too much lately.

If, a gun is pointed at my head and I would be executed if I didn't give a choice, then and only then would I advocate for an SV execution because her logic hasn't been the most concrete over time and some of her old suspicious still remain wonky. It seems that LL is a fairly polarizing character though.

@PJ - are you advocating more for "keep LL" than "execute SV"?

@CES - Same question.

[pablito]

Oh, in case anyone asks, I'd rather DragonsOfSummer or ThAdmiral be executed. Both replaced somewhat scummy characters and it could help us to just save them the trouble of having to re-read.

[pablito]

K, I read your posts PJ, it was a way far back when you last mentioned SV in detail. But it exists. In fact, it makes me feel better that your notes/memory are that good. I'll

unvote: PJ

.

But CES should answer the question I posed as well.

But really, DoS is a safe execution that should be re-looked. If not today, at least tomorrow.

[pablito]

vote: RafK, ThAdmiral

need more info on them. Pressure votes.

[pablito]

Let's go with....run amok. I pressure you to run amok. Let's see what damage you're capable of.

[pablito]

Good start, RafK. Let's also

vote: Kaleidoscope

for some pressure as well.

[pablito]

ThAdmiral, that'd be great.

[pablito]

As long as you claim scum. Anything else, then don't claim.

[pablito]

vote: Der Hammer, Smashy

Smashy should explain more in depth why he chose LL.

Der Hammer needs to post.

ThAdmiral. Actually, I'd really like to hear your claim, all silliness aside. There are many people who wouldn't want you to claim though. But for me, no one that has ever occupied your role has made me feel nice and snuggly and comfortable. It's quite possible that the replacements have all just coincidentally been scummy to me. So I have an interest in hearing your claim, but many people won't want you to claim. But do as you want.

[pablito]

Sadly, ThAdmiral, I tired of suspecting you now. Especially after that post. Gives me a sense that it was mere coincidence rather than actual scum vibes from that role.

Let's

unvote: RafK, ThAdmiral; vote: DragonsOfSummer, Shanba, Zindaras

for more pressure voting. I like that RafK and ThAdmiral weren't afraid of making a stance of some sort early on today. It comforts me that at least you're likely not lurker scum.

Strong emphasis on KaleiDoscope and Shanba for jumping back into the game. I've forgotten what scope stands for and I still don't have good feelings. And I don't remember Shanba at all.

With so many replacements, I need these guys to stand out more. It's highly improbable that all scum are original players, therefore at least one replacement is scum, right?

[pablito]

I'll proxy for MoS' non-vote.

vote: mnowax

[pablito]

You know since votes count and MoS won't.

And hm, pressuring mnowax is good. I'll have to look over that sometime. I should look over RafK as well. With me being so anti-Mert and all.

[pablito]

Zindaras, I'm voting you to pressure you into contributing hardcore. I wanna see hardcore action coming from you. You talk about trying to jump back into the game, but I wanna see it happen. Yeah.

mnowax, who's all blindly following MoS? I'm only doing it because I'm kinda bored. And I want to see you under pressure, which you are, so I applaud MoS for making you (mnowax) sweat.

Okay, this is some good stuff we're getting. I advise that lots of people start talking soon to get some good discussion going. RafK and ThAdmiral seem to have disappeared after their nice brief stint here. I liked what they tried to say, and want to see more.

And where dat Smashy been?

[pablito]

Der Hammer, have you read the thread, if so, why haven't you shared your thoughts on multiple people in a singular post for once. If not, please share you thoughts on multiple people in a singular post because I think you've been in the game long enough to make such a post.

Also, DoS is still a good execution candidate. That role is cursed.

And I'm starting to get fucking pissed that people "no longer care about this game".

If you even want to DARE to use that excuse, please give us the pleasure of at least detailing the specifics of why the reality of the game no longer meets your original expectations of this game. Then after doing so, please explain what could have been done to rectify that situation. Because this is not just a single person dropping out because of absence. There are multiple dropping out who simply don't care. This is a game problem that needs to be addressed. So if you're going to drop out, at least help us solve this problem. Call it an exit interview as you will.

[pablito]

Yos, no one's jumped at the offer to look at so-called suspicious people. I suggest you give some assignments. People seem to do best here when they are given specific questions. As for me, maybe this weekend after my papers/exams are done.

unvote: DragonsOfSummer, vote: VitaminR

[pablito]

MOS: Hammer possibility
Vitiman R: Don't hammer
SV: Hammer possibility
Smashy: Hammer him

MoS: Please keep alive. Yeah, he's generally not looking exactly town, but in the first part of the game MoS has made a statement and he has clearly intended to stand out through his non-voting. MoS does contribute. I haven't seen anything completely scummy from him lately, but he's not in my completely town pile either. I definitely do not think MoS should be executed now nor the near future. Oddly, at the moment of reading this, I feel that I'm suddenly taking him as my "keep him alive because even if he's scum, we'll have an informative lead later" which was the stance I originally took with Glork. Basically, I don't think I'm unbiased enough on him right now to make a good argument on him. I really respect him for the way he isolated mnowax.

VitaminR: Please execute. There is something wrong with this role. Without looking at votes or discussions or anything, this is the most cursed role there is out there. I find it non-coincidental that immediately after replacing in, both DoS and VitaminR have promised to do re-reads and have started lurking immediately therafter. I do not think anymore that reading the entire thread is necessary and I think it's more likely that this is indicative of someone replacing into a scum role and wondering how the hell he's going to get out of this. Anyway, it'd make it easier on everyone to execute a recent replacement anyway. And Phoebus wasn't exactly the epitome of pro-towniness in this game either. I see it as a win-win situation. I can only see a detriment if VitaminR comes back soon as starts asking really good questions and showing a lot of interest in just trying to do something other than lurking defensively - instead of lurking neutrally.

spectrumvoid - Keep her alive for now. I think SV was clearly the better choice to execute yesterday and it'd be good for Smashy to explain that. But nonetheless, SV still appears fairly neutral to me. She has shown some good town moments, and I'm more apt to believe that she's town than scum. It is good to see pressure on SV however and I hope she contributes a lot today knowing that she's on the block. Also, I hope that people mention SV independent of her being a suspect yesterday. It is way too easy to fall into the mindset of "well it was between LL and SV yesterday and since LL came up town..." just to suspect SV.

Smashy - Must stay alive. I think Smashy was forced into a tight situation and did the best that he could do with the time he head. I think DR did a fine job as king except for the leaving part. And I can understand where Smashy was coming from. I think that this defensive lurking is extremely scummy right now. But at the same time, Smashy has a lot to answer to and a lot of people are attacking him. It's hard to replace into this game and be immediately suspected. He did make a decent effort as king, and I think he made the wrong decision, but I believe there was some reasons behind the execution, and I think he needs to be pressured so that he gives those reasons, but I do not believe that the execution was indicative of scumminess.

I think mnowax needs to be on the LoE right now. Everyone is starting to have some type of reaction to his latest actions and it would be good to get those suspicions out in the open. It looks that mnowax is something easy to talk about, and I think that adding mnowax would help involve some new discussion. Plus mnowax under pressure could be interesting to see what types of defenses and attacks we get.

[pablito]

oops, I accidentally included Scope's list on the top of my post. So ignore that, I was just using it as a list to figure out who the four on the LoE were.

[pablito]

Pablito: Why do you think DeadR did a good job as king? Because he basically stalled the game? Posted nothing but a summary post?

What I said he was a good king? I meant to say he was a very town king, I think. I don't remember what I was saying when I made that post.

I like VitaminR's effort lately. At least we know he's not taking the easy way out.

[pablito]

Shanba, you're confusing everyone by trying to say that Shanba-king and DR-king had the same exact style.

Only once did I refer to DR. SV pointed that out. Now don't go confusing everyone by trying to use my references to Smashy along with it.

[pablito]

Yes, I meant Smashy-King.

Shanba, explain why you thought I was town. I feel that sometimes scum make a general statement like that to enter a new avenue of trying to create suspicion on someone who no one's going after.

Tell me exactly what actions and what posts made you believe that I was town. There's a big difference between "pablito doesn't register on my radar" and "pablito is town". Therefore, there has to be something that I posted that made you think I was town. Please tell me what it is.

[pablito]

Just a sec, I don't have my notes on this PC, I'll have to do a quick re-read. If I remember correctly, however, you've been unafraid to voice your opinion and push the issue when a scum player might have tried to avoid the spotlight until it was turned on him (much as Pooky did). You've evaded the issue here though, that is, that you've just flatly contradicted yourself.

I'm not gone, yet, by the way.

I'm sure I evaded some issue or other, but that's because, stuff.

I still stand by the point that DR tried his hardest but failed due to circumstances out of his control (his availability) and I think he would've been a decent king had he stayed active completely throughout.

I still stand by the point that Smashy did the best he could in a situation where he suddenly became king, and had to do his best with an immediately deadline and I think he still did a decent job despite me completely disagreeing with his final two on the LoE.

From my point of view, Shanba, you're still a mystery - as were your two predecessors, so I poked at you to see where you came from. I urge you to stay active and contribute even though I will no longer be able to act as your foil.

So - I think I've stated a reasonable amount on the discussions of today, but if you want something from me before I magically turn into Thesp (a wondeful player and I'm glad he's replacing me), then ask away. I feel that if I'm asking for replacement, the least I can do is contribute as much as possible so that Thesp doesn't have to try to piece some answers about my own words (although I've been fairly visible and explicit throughout). Especially when I'm not stepping away from the game because I fullheartedly want to.

So ask away - get your last answers from me.