Kingmaker II-Game Over


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Post Post #975 (ISO) » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:18 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

This is tiresome.
CTD wrote:I'm also intrigued by PJ's analysis of Mert. Apparently, he wasn't at all bothered by some of the things I've picked up on upon rereading, which reassures me that something's amiss with him. I'd expect town-PJ to be more vigilant. Or he's just not seeing what I'm seeing, in which case I'd like him to comment.
1.) No, I wasn't as bothered on some of the things you "picked up on"
2.) No, there is nothing "amiss" with me
3.) I am vigilante, but I don't read the same meanings from things as you do. If I did, the two of us would agree on everything, and that will never happen in a game of mafia
CTD wrote:PJ - I didn't say I expected you to write a novel, I expected you to be more vigilant. You played one game with Mert before in which you were paranoid of him because he was constantly encouraging you and now that he does it again it's a-okay? You seem to think very highly of him (with good reason, as far as I can tell), yet you believe his game to be so one-dimensional that you have figured him out after playing with him once? Do you think he wouldn't encourage you if he were scum?
Firstly, enough with the "vigilance". I am not Superman. I post what I see, and I post what I think.

As for your question: Yes, I do think it's a-okay. He does it [encourages] as town, therefore I do not see it as a scumtell on him. What's your point? I clearly saw it, but I did not find it scummy coming from Mert, based on my past experience with Mert. Of course he
could
be scum, but
not for that reason.

CTD wrote:I'm also not getting a particularly good vibe from your spectrumvoid vote, because what you find scummy about her (being "sheeplike" and "appeasing" you) is roughly the same thing you find townie about Mert ("complimenting" you). They were both buddying up to you.
I don't care what you think of my vote on spectrumvoid at this point in time, frankly. I have reasons for why I view them differently, and I have explained them. I have played a game with Mert, and I have played at least one game with spectrumvoid. Of course I can't read them "perfectly", but those games
do
influence my opinion of them in other games. I can and do meta-game. I think spectrumvoid is significantly scummier than Mert. To understand my view on this, you can try reading my posts again, and then you need to read their posts in context, as opposed to simply in isolation. I have explained my reasons more than adequately.
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Post Post #976 (ISO) » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:58 pm

Post by CrashTextDummie »

PJ - I took the time and skimmed over all of Mert's posts in Newbie 254, and I got more of a thinking-the-same-on-everything vibe and mutual trust, than what you're describing (which doesn't mean anything of course, as I can't relate to how you perceived it back then).

However, I don't think that you can compare his behaviour in that game with his Post 239, which had more of a "don't worry if you execute a townie, I won't feel bad about it as long as you don't admit that you did it knowingly" undertone in my view.

It's no secret that Mert pushed for a box execution on D1, and if you don't see how this post was more than just "cheerleading", then quite frankly you must be blind.

Also, I'm sure you'll agree with me that being knowledgable of Kingmaker I is not a townie-tell.

PS: Terribly sorry if this is tiresome to you.
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Post Post #977 (ISO) » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:21 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Reading Mert's posts in isolation in Newbie 254 won't do very much for you. You need to look at them in relation to my posts.

Here is a post I made in that game which gives a few examples of way I became wary of Mert, in particular because of what I dubbed the "shadow effect". Simply skip down to where I give my analysis on Mert.
CTD wrote:However, I don't think that you can compare his behaviour in that game with his Post 239, which had more of a "don't worry if you execute a townie, I won't feel bad about it as long as you don't admit that you did it knowingly" undertone in my view.
The vibe I got was "don't worry if you execute a townie, I doubt the town will react the same way towards you as it did to TSS in Kingmaker 1". I did not get an "I don't care if you execute a townie" vibe whatsoever.
CTD wrote:Also, I'm sure you'll agree with me that being knowledgable of Kingmaker I is not a townie-tell.
I do not necessarily agree with this. Newer players who
make
themselves knowledgeable in similar games as basis for comparison do receive slight pro-town points from me. When I first came to the site, as town, I read many other games in order to get backgrounds on players in general as well as similar games when I was town. When I was scum, I tended to not put as much effort in outside research. It's by no means a perfect tell, but I do take it into consideration.
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Post Post #978 (ISO) » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:37 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Actually, I just thought of how I should be doing this.

Spectrumvoid is scummy becuase of "gut".
Mert is townish because of "gut".

Problem solved. I don't need to post an epic saga every time I want to express an opinion on somebody.
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Post Post #979 (ISO) » Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:57 pm

Post by Zindaras »

But it sure as hell helps.

We've gotten a few replacements (in the Kingmaker thread), and some inactives are picking up too, apparently. I'm happy with that and look forward to their insights.
petroleumjelly wrote:@ Mert: What do you think of Bird1111, Phoebus, and cardb0ardb0x?
Won't work. He's gone from the site.

I don't believe I've done this yet, so
Unvote: everyone but Mert
.
Show
Finished: 159 (120 Town, 33 Mafia, 5 Other, 1 Cult, 4 Cultivated)
68 Wins, 71 Losses
Town: 52 Wins, 54 Losses (2 Wins as Cult)
Mafia: 13 Wins, 15 Losses (1 Win as Cult)
Other: 3 Wins, 1 Loss (1 Win as Cult)
Cult: 0 Wins, 1 Loss
Cultivated: 4 Wins, 0 Losses
59 Survived, 31 Lynched, 60 Killed
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Post Post #980 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:18 am

Post by Dead Rikimaru »

Glork wrote: I really want to hear from Twomz, Ozymandius, Pooky, CTD, CardboardBox, StallingChamp, Mert, and UberTimmy right now.
I replace Ozymandius. If you adress me specific questions you will just make my job of catching up easier.
Otherwise I will re-read during the weekend, since it will demand some hours and It's more effective if done at once.
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-The Scummies 2006 - Red Carpet and Ceremony![/i]
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Post Post #981 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:27 am

Post by Nightson »

petroleumjelly wrote:Actually, I just thought of how I should be doing this.

Spectrumvoid is scummy becuase of "gut".
Mert is townish because of "gut".

Problem solved. I don't need to post an epic saga every time I want to express an opinion on somebody.
:( PJ isn't PJ anymore
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Post Post #982 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:03 am

Post by Glork »

Here's some food for thought this weekend (as I'll be gone from tomorrow until Monday sometime):
Remove MBL, Pablito from the Execution List. Add Mert to the Execution List


Other changes are coming, pending a Vote Count from our lovely Mod.
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Post Post #983 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:04 am

Post by Zindaras »

*huggles Glork*
Show
Finished: 159 (120 Town, 33 Mafia, 5 Other, 1 Cult, 4 Cultivated)
68 Wins, 71 Losses
Town: 52 Wins, 54 Losses (2 Wins as Cult)
Mafia: 13 Wins, 15 Losses (1 Win as Cult)
Other: 3 Wins, 1 Loss (1 Win as Cult)
Cult: 0 Wins, 1 Loss
Cultivated: 4 Wins, 0 Losses
59 Survived, 31 Lynched, 60 Killed
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Post Post #984 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:11 am

Post by pablito »

Sad PJ isn't PJ anymore
how about, PJ is behaving in a way that differs from the concept of PJ that you have.
In this game, some players are being expected of a style/standard based on meta-gaming. And those people seem to be struggling to buck their image while still trying to deliver their best game.

While it's completely understandable that they're trying extra-hard in this game, it's very interesting to see how they've been coping/acknowledging this struggle.

While I don't necessarily agree with PJ's choices, I highly respect his chioce to choose people based on gut alone. And that may give us more information on PJ than his king-reign yesterday.

I would say pro-town, because it seems genuine exhaustion and he's recognized his priorities in his suspicions.
Sup, later.
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Post Post #985 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:14 am

Post by pablito »

Also, thank you Glork - I respect those decisions.

I hope you were swayed more by your analysis and notes and not the fact that three people mad "unvote all but Mert" moves lately.
Sup, later.
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Post Post #986 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:19 am

Post by Glork »

A little bit of this, a little bit of that.
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Post Post #987 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:40 am

Post by MrBuddyLee »

Glork wrote:
Remove MBL, Pablito from the Execution List. Add Mert to the Execution List
Hmm, maybe his scumdar's not broken after all. Or he's wily scum.

Rikimaru's usually more helpful than this, and if he doesn't make an effort soon I'm gonna venture a guess that he's scum along with bird.
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Post Post #988 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:44 am

Post by pablito »

Nonetheless, DR was fairly specific when he was here the first time, and that's a looooong catch-up he can make.

I applaud him for returning to his original role.

And I'd be willing to wait for him to make an effort in catching up. Because that would make up for the very few posts that he made in his original stint.
Sup, later.
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Post Post #989 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:55 am

Post by Glork »

Oh, yeah: Rikimaru, take the weekend to read the thread over. I'd still like you to respond to my earlier "homework assignment," that'd be great:
Glork wrote:
Rikimaru:
Please post some brief (or not-so-brief, if you prefer) thoughts on every player in the game.

I really do want a couple of sentences on
every
living player. So take notes. Or something.
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Post Post #990 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:48 pm

Post by BrianMcQueso »

Nightfall replaces UberTimmy
Lowell replaces CardboardBox
Samus replaces Twomz

Looking for a replacement for Mert still. Welcome aboard, all!

Also, today marks the 2-month mark of Glork's reign. I'm going to set a deadline for a week from now, for
December 22nd
.
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Post Post #991 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:15 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Glork wrote:Here's some food for thought this weekend (as I'll be gone from tomorrow until Monday sometime):
Remove MBL, Pablito from the Execution List. Add Mert to the Execution List


Other changes are coming, pending a Vote Count from our lovely Mod.
Yeah, agreed; Mert's not shown many signs of being pro-town, and there's no reason for either MBL or Pablito to be in the list.

I don't think there's any reason for me to be on the list either, but whateva.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #992 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:00 pm

Post by Glork »

Oh poopies, a deadline. Well, here's pretty much where I stand on most of the relevant execution candidates today:

MBL: I still think that he's probably a complete idiot, but I'm warming up to the idea that he's pro-town. (
Unvote MBL
, by the way.) I think that his logic has been bad, I think that he's grasped for straws in repeated attempts to paint me as incompetent, stupid, and scummy merely for his own personal shits and giggles. But I think that otherwise, he really is trying to find scum, even if I disagree with him on virtually every account. I hate it. Dear God, it makes my soul burn to know that somebody could play the way MBL is playing... but I don't think he's scum anymore.

Pooky, I would suggest that you hurry with that analysis of every player. Your life just might depend on it. I still think you're scum.

Now that we've
actually
found some replacements, I'm much more hesitant to lurk Mert, as I really do believe that he's just gone completely inactive, and I personally am not at yet convinced of the case against him.

Pablito -- I'm still like 50/50 on you. I like a lot of your posts, and then I don't like a lot of your posts. No time for an in-depth analysis now, but you're off the list
for today
.

Yosarian... As far as I can tell, I'm almost alone in my suspicions of him. I still don't like him. I'm going to go read over his posts now, look at a bit of context, and see if I can't articulate my thoughts on him a little better.



Finally...
Mod, can we please have a vote count?
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Post Post #993 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:13 pm

Post by BrianMcQueso »

Woops, thought I put one up last time.

VOTE COUNT

King Glork's List of Execution: PookyTheMagicalBear, Yosarian2, Mert


bird1111 (2): Samus, PookyTheMagicalBear
CrashTextDummie (0): petroleumjelly, StallingChamp, Samus, UberTimmy
Dead Rikimaru (0): pablito
Der Hammer (0):
Fritzler (0):
Lowell (0):
LuckayLuck (0): Mert
Mastermind of Sin (0):
Mert (3+K): Samus, PookyTheMagicalBear
MrBuddyLee (1):
Nightfall (1):
Nightson (0): pablito, MrBuddyLee
pablito (3): Mert
petroleumjelly (1): PookyTheMagicalBear, bird1111, Nightfall, spectrumvoid
Phoebus (1): bird1111, pablito, Yosarian
PookyTheMagicalBear (3+K):
Samus (3):
spectrumvoid (1): StallingChamp, ubertimmy, Phoebus
StallingChamp (2):
Yosarian2 (1+K): Twomz
Zindaras (0): Mert
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Post Post #994 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:18 pm

Post by Glork »

Okay, so while re-reading, I want to hit on one thing that really stood out to me. When CTD was posting his thoughts on Mert, he said this:
CTD wrote:People he voted for on D1: cardboardbox, MoS, bird1111, Phoebus
Not a bad track record, although the reasoning behind most of his votes was based on the way these people chose to use their votes, which is a tad narrow minded.
Interestingly enough, he says that Mert's reasons for placing his votes (based on the
way
people choose their votes) is narrow-minded.

I don't think this can be verified by anybody in the game (except
possibly
PJ), but Ibby told me a few months ago that what CTD just questioned is actually her biggest
pro-town
tell on me. According to her, when I'm pro-town, I'm analyzing WHY people place their votes because I'm searching for MOTIVE or INTENT. I have to say, I agree completely. I think it's a damned good effective way of finding scum.
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Post Post #995 (ISO) » Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:02 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Glork wrote:Okay, so while re-reading, I want to hit on one thing that really stood out to me. When CTD was posting his thoughts on Mert, he said this:
CTD wrote:People he voted for on D1: cardboardbox, MoS, bird1111, Phoebus
Not a bad track record, although the reasoning behind most of his votes was based on the way these people chose to use their votes, which is a tad narrow minded.
Interestingly enough, he says that Mert's reasons for placing his votes (based on the
way
people choose their votes) is narrow-minded.

I don't think this can be verified by anybody in the game (except
possibly
PJ), but Ibby told me a few months ago that what CTD just questioned is actually her biggest
pro-town
tell on me. According to her, when I'm pro-town, I'm analyzing WHY people place their votes because I'm searching for MOTIVE or INTENT. I have to say, I agree completely. I think it's a damned good effective way of finding scum.
When did Ibby tell you about that? *sigh* I thought we were going to keep that as our secret Glork-tell.

And to be honest, that tell only works (or worked, anyways) when you looked at motivations for votes
early
in the game (at least according to Ibs). The tell itself was actually pretty effective: I tested Ibby on it a couple of times by having her read Glork's posts in isolation in random games, and then asking if she thought Glork was town or scum, and she was fairly accurate -- certainly better than 50/50.

Nevertheless, I agree: looking at motivations behind votes are often just as (if not more) telling than the vote itself when it comes to scum-hunting. I suppose one might consider it narrow-minded, but I see no fault in narrowing in on a strategy that (so far as I'm concerned) has merit.

Mod
, since we still need a number of replacements, wouldn't you agree that you can hold off the deadline until the game is stabilized? :)

I would also like Pooky to finish his analysis. I can't recall the last game where I've seen Pooky hunt for scum, so I'm interested to see him in action.
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Post Post #996 (ISO) » Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:15 am

Post by Samus »

BrianMcQueso wrote:
Samus replaces Twomz

Looking for a replacement for Mert still. Welcome aboard, all!
Thanks!

Looking forward to this.
Never played a Kingmaker-type game before...Actually, I'd never even
heard
of it before signing up
_______________________
Going to read thru the entire thread now (Glah...I'm getting tired just thinking about it ^^) so don't expect any posting from me for a while.
Currently at page 8.
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Post Post #997 (ISO) » Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:50 am

Post by Lowell »

Hi all. Replacing CardboardBox, will do a read/skim.

So let me get this straight: I can vote for as many people as I want, right?

Also, kingmaker, I want dibs.
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Post Post #998 (ISO) » Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:41 am

Post by Nightfall »

I'm here, I'm replacing UberTimmy.

I'll try hard to do a decent skim of what has happend this monday (2 days time).
I cant possibly go over everything today.
Once Nightfall comes, everyone's dead...
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Post Post #999 (ISO) » Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:32 pm

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

Continued from previous Post,

The top reason I believe Glork to be innocent is because I would have expected him to throw a noncontributive scumbuddy under the bus quite a while ago(I honestly don’t expect all of the scumbags we’re dealing with to be type A personality psychopaths who are putting up the air of looking for scum). I’ve seen how Glork reacts to pressure in terms of high expectations in scumchat and his reaction so far is analogous as far as the medium of talk is concerned. I can see that some might say he would put on a 2 month farce and keep it running while making it look like he is trying to find scum but I honestly don’t see anyone who is scum putting on a 2 month farce and putting the sheer amount of effort I’ve witnessed from him into this game.






LuckayLuck (rep. Ameliaslay)

LL’s stated preference for mafia games is to look for townies and then deduce the scum from those who are left over(referencing N285 and M368) He also gets brownie points for having an Izzet Guidmage in his icon, why Glorkos doesn’t get points for his Nezumi…. Well it’s cuz I think his nezumi is an overrated crappy card that I wouldn’t pick in a draft.

Post 0 follows the criterion, marks MoS MBL NS PJ Pab as townies.

Post 1 Marks as against 3 people but only very weakly and also marked 3 people as unsure of, marked all other players as slightly to highly townie.(sounds like he doesn’t want to piss any1 off but pretty solid stuff for a newbie this early. Not much fundamentally wrong with his logic since most of it is based off gut instincts.)

Post 6:
Supports strongly,
MoS
MBL
Nightson
Pablito
petroleumjelly
Glork

There is also that quite helpful chart he made in Post 17.

I expect he’s not scum from the sheer number of players he’s marked off as townie to highly townie, I would expect a scum player to mark off fewer townies in order to keep more viable lynch candidates around. I also don’t believe he’s working to get people to not suspect him by saying he thinks they are townie because he’s simply cast too many of those connections.





Mastermind of Sin
He starts off by saying he’s never going to vote till he’s King, certainly something I’d expect from MoS, it doesn’t really change whether he’s more or less likely to be scum because this guy honestly doesn’t care about what role he is when he does things, if he wants to do it, he’ll do it regardless of which side he’s on.

He honestly doesn’t say very much this game, he doesn’t push very hard for the people he thinks are guilty or defend adamantly the people he thinks are innocent. Basically he won’t be saying much, this is type of behaviour is more in line with general MoS behaviour, he will pursue it regardless of alignment. I’m more willing to put him in my townie column because I’ve just seen so many games where MoS psuedolurks through and will defend his lurkish strategy.

Mert
0:a vote without any reasoning, logic or commentary, no random or anything. Kind of pointless in a KM game considering your vote is only as good as the reasoning behind it since it does nothing by itself.
1:A joke filler
2-10: he really doesn’t say anything concrete in terms of who he suspects, tho he criticizes the methodology of several players, he does not push them, yes he votes for these people but he does not push for their execution very hard/
21:rather ironic he would jump on a bandwagon on me with the logic that I jumped on a bandwagon after a notable absence.

The guy doesn’t really say much of substance, I can say the same thing for plenty of players so far. The easiest way for scum to hide is to stay within the current, when they see most players lurk, they will follow along and do the same.

MrBuddyLee
I like MBL a whole lot in this game, probably because his ideas are so like mine. I could analyze every post over again but I’m short on time and u guys probly won’t read it anyway.

He’s right, Glork, stop putting yourself under so much damn pressure and accept the fact that you need the help of the rest of the bloody town to win this game.

Plus I don’t think the ideal scum strategy is to poke at the King a lot. Could be mega wifom but I highly doubt it.

Nightfall (rep. UberTimmy)
Has 1 post, the guy who he’s replacing didn’t do much better. Solid lurker.

Nightson (rep. Vikingfan)
Does better than predecessor in expressing suspicions. Hasn’t posted enough for me to put him solidly in any camp, on gut I’d say he’s more likely to be town than mafia(after adjusting for whatever ratio the town has in favor of it of course).

pablito

Unlike most players, I like pab, I understand the point of his argumentation and his logic.

He seems to make a real effort in terms of actually playing the game, and there are cute tidbits like Post 67.

I like his posts in 43 61 74 and 84.

But here’s the biggest reason I think Pab=protown, he starts the game by putting enormous pressure on Glork, even more pressure than if some1 had voted Glork. He put confidence into the fact that Glork would catch scum, that’s stronger pressure because it puts the onus of catching scumbags on Glork.(He’s pretty susceptible to unreasonable expectations) A Glork with unreasonable expectations of himself is a dangerous thing ;) I don’t see Pab trying to create that with a move that also draws attention to himself, it’d be like a doubleshot against himself.

petroleumjelly

He’s PJ

I love him

But there’s no way I’m reading all of his posts.(short on time, and plus I’m 19 minutes over the time I had put up for rereading this game already.)

The overwhelming consensus I get from rereading the other posts b4 is that they think PJ is protown, from what I have reread I get that sense too.

I’m over the time I’ve allocated for game rereading and I have 2 finals on Monday and 2 on Thursday so I’m not even sure if I’ll be back to finish this analysis.

Summary So Far:
It’s a rather peculiar stretch of time over the multiple crashes that will kill activity quickly, plus there is the natural lurking that goes on anyway this type of climate in Mountainous favors scum, our best course of action is to revert to a voting/killing formula that will kill lurking to a high extent, I could design something of that fashion but the natural lurking problem probly won't go away on its own. I might or might not be around to finish this later dependent upon how well studying goes for my finals.
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"I hope one day I can openly play as wolfy as Pooky and get zero pressure for it grumble grumble."
-MariaR


"I can't even look at the game anymore.
That evil teddy bear has got everyone twirling by his thumb.
It's like witnessing an slow but unavoidable train crash you can't stop."

-Norwee

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