Open 465 - Wot's... Uh the Deal? (Game Over! Town Win!)

[Thor665]

@Adam - then avoid it and offer a succinct counter. That's why I did a sum up - I really think half the stuff you're calling scummy are town tells, and the other half are null tells.
Meanwhile, you are not addressing the point on ProHawk and my rather solid counter of it in favor of acting like me not reading the thread is also some sort of tell (ProTip: It isn't, and I already gave you enough info to discover that for yourself if you wanted to be proactive)

In fact, I would even kind of like to focus on how your green text matters - as I am flat out saying it doesn't, and that's part of the ProHawk conversation as well, so is of actual interest to me moreso than trying to hold Newbie remedial classes.

Vote Count

Thor665 (L-1): Shrimp85, Guile, Adam-12, ProHawk

Mantisdreamz (L-4): borkjerfkin
Leviathan (L-4): Malakittens
ProHawk (L-4): Thor665

Not Voting: leviathan93, Mantisdreamz,

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[ProHawk]

Thor is clearly spinning.

I don't know how much more clearly this ^ can be stated. Every attack on him or Molly is clearly silly in his words.

Maybe

everyone else should improve?

I've actually been doing quite well.

The problem is

not many of you seem to understand

what scum and town tells are and are reacting in odd ways to the info you have

I would also like to point out that any logical case will be treated in the same fashion.

Anyone want to explain the case on me

so I can make fun of it?

Hint: It's a Day 1 wagon and is probably

incredibly silly.

See why it's pointless to sit and argue with him?

1. Link?
2. Like what - just give me one example read you'd get from it?
3. Meaning she's your #2 scumspect?

[4.]You also didn't explain the hypocrisy from Mollie after I totally wuss slapped your 'this is all the case needed' case - why not come back at me if that is such a brilliant case-closed moment?

Now that I have had time to sleep and cool off from Mollie's terrible play and personal gambit I will address the issue at hand that Thor keeps dangling around like bait.

1.

Spoiler: Posts I have made against Molly

Glad to see we are getting along with some decent information. Re: Leviathan not confirming right away... sounds more like some experienced scum ploy than a new scum. This is also assuming that he is telling the truth about his experience. Props to mala for getting us out of RVS before it even began.

are you thinking levithan thing was trying to extend the mafia talk time malacat?

^this strikes me as something scum would say. Why are you trying to guess what mala is thinking?

VOTE: pirate mollie

I want to see where

this

goes...

Ahh wonderful. So which one of you had the scummiest response to...

So on that note....

Guille

any last words before the blacksmith hammers your head in?

Mala... just kinda pissed off at the speed of things.
Molly, now #244 combined with #247 are great.
Shrimp... just trying to sort things through as usual - ObvTown

In other words, who decided to take that line and twist it to make a case against a townie while attempting to gain town-cred all at the same time? You know who I think it is, buut I will let you decide.

For the record the blacksmith

equal

ProHawk. And I had no intent to hammer.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pirate Molly

The winner Molly it is. PS - the only reason Shrimp and I make a cute couple is cause we are both ObvTown!

Guille, can't wait to see who your vote lands on tonight.

Nice try Mantis

Long Posts

equal

Town.
Shots Posts

equal

Scum.

You will most likely not see walls come from me unless we make it to lylo and it is necessary to fish out the last scumbag. Regarding being riled, lead a wagon on me to L-1 and you will see me riled at the rest of my town buddies' foolish blindness.

@Mala - No Intent, Nor Desire oh astute one. You along with Mollie fell into my trap - try not to be too befuddled.

@Rest -

Does anyone

not

see the fishiness in Molly?

She won't put any heat back on me for catching her scumminess early on (in fact she tries to buddy up), until she gets something that she has backup on (Mala) and that appears scummy at first glance?

lol just saw this in post edit:

those of us who are scum

LOL.

VOTE: leviathan

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mollie

levi if you are town I feel your pain. like for realz.

it looked like a scum slip to me.

You should be lynched on this premise alone. His grammar is consistent with his overall voice ala

not

a scum-slip.

Pray-tell

what negative attention did you intentionally garner?

wrt my bold: you are spinning this. I drew negative attention at my entrance into the thread which you voted on didn't you?

Spinning is just Mollie's way of saying I don't like what you posted but can't logically refute your point.

Spoiler: Mollie's Grandiose Entrance

are you thinking levithan thing was trying to extend the mafia talk time malacat?

okay I want to see where this goes

VOTE: levianthan93

also mantis you need to get in here so I can get a read on you!!!

You tell me how I am spinning it, cause i'm not. Her posts themselves did not garner any negative attention until specific scrutiny was brought to them.

RE: Scum looking up another game for an argument. It is more than possible.

You gotta be joking!

The question is if she is frustrated scum.

I wasn't joking when I said it was the most anti-town thing she has said so far. In reality, if she is scum its the smartest thing she could do for her team because it ideally gives her replacement a "fresh-start" because we cannot question her replacement about anything that transpired prior to him entering the game.

Mala, I still need answers to my questions, but we need to lynch Mollie today.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mollie Pirate

2. I am not going to make a case based on theoreticals that have yet to occur. But here is one association I did notice early-on.

Allow me to show you what my realization really paints with simple equations.

Mollie and Guille are not scum together. Therefore...
If Mollie flips scum, this adds major town points to Guille.
If Guille flips scum, this adds major town points to Mollie.

If Mollie flips town, this says nothing absolute toward the alignment of Guille.
If Guille flips town, this also says nothing absolute toward the alignment of Mollie.

Hence, my statement doesn't setup anything even remotely close to a double town lynch.

3. I am not worried about #2 scumspect's until you are lynched.

4. My brilliant "case-closed" moment

Thor says.

There is no actual hypocrisy in saying "I do not mind being lynched" and "I think town would benefit from someone else in my slot"

Mollie says nothing of the sort about town benefiting from someone else in her slot. Her words were the game is "f*cked for me". The real issue here boils down to motivation. I am not only saying she is being hypocritical, I am also saying she is playing to survive. This is scum's #1 game and she knows it. She even pointed it out herself.

my team's win condition is not dependent on my survivability but scum's certainly is.

I would rather not be around for end of game wifom with this much aggro drawn on me so early on trying to paint this as scummy makes you look disgustingly scummy.

See bold. Why did she replace out? She said specifically because the game was over for her, she knew she was going to be lynched when she was put at L-1. So she did what she knew she could to survive. Now which side depends on her survivability again? She said it herself. I am not even going to count the number of times she said she was ok with her lynch and how she was helping the town with AtE because its deafening.

Thor Says:

Oh, you're saying scum request replacement more than town?
I'd actually be happy to put money on a bet saying you're wrong.

This statement may be valid, but the real question is, how many town players replace out

because

they are about to be lynched? I am sure lots of town players and scum players replace out because they don't have the time to invest in the game, or get bored. I have only seen scum replace out because they are on the lynching table. I don't really a lot of evidence for this, considering my lack of experience, but I would love to see some examples -Thor- of town players replacing out due to the probability of them being lynched. You fail to take into account the motivation factor.


Also, for anyone who cares Re:

I actually don't think I've done any ad hom attacks - of course, but feel free to point out the personal attacks against you I'v emade.

Spoiler: Ad Hom Attacks

And yet my reading comprehension is better than yours.

Personal Attack.

- That's not the main reason, I'm still trying to get you to use your words and describe the main reason. But I'll address it

(because I don't dodge things)

Personal Attack.

Oh gawds no. That would be almost as derpy as claiming anyone who did tat was scum - clearly neither conclusion holds any logic at all.

I claimed that scum would be the one to replace out, therefore I am derpy. Personal Attack.

Funny 'hurm' or funny 'ha-ha'. I actually don't think I've done any ad hom attacks - of course, but feel free to point out the personal attacks against you I'v emade.
None?
Okay then.

No time for me to respond before insinuating that I am making things up? Personal Attack.

[guille2015]

Thor's here. I can hear the thunder. This will be interesting!

Asking to be replaced out of a game is in no way indicative of a person's allignment. That said, Mantis should have had an opinion of this case but didn't (or I missed it).

@Mantis: What's your opinion of Mollie replacing out and how does it compares to her meta?

No one seems to understand what this means, even as they can't point at any scum bussing me.

I would think that Inexperience players are likely not in interest to bus this game. There is very little advantage for scum to buss this game. So I find it likely that if Thor is scum, none of the ones in the wagon, including Hawk are scum. Out of the people outside of the wagon we have: Levi, Shrimp, Mantis and Mala. I doubt that any of them as scum will buss a scum-Thor. The situation changes if Thor is town. And that would completely mess with my reads.

Thor, I'll give you my reasons for voting on Monday.

Prohawk, Wanting a quicklynch on a replaced player is bad. The case on Mollie is not as certain as you think it is. And I have to check if you thought it was certain or not in your prior posts.

Mala: You totally should not have ignored Thor! But I caught something in your meta that you are not going to like. More on that on Monday.

Ok, I'll unvote before somebody convinces Shrimp or Levi to vote for thor. I want to get my ideas out there and the weekend is not going to help. I'll be back.

Unvote

[ProHawk]

Guille, I gave you seven posts to look at so it should be pretty simple for you. Check out the spoiler in #976. I would agree with you

IF

that player was replaced for inactivity and not for strategic reasons.

[Malakittens]

No, if you are going to say something about my meta say it now. >.>

[Adam-12]

Mod: Please prod Shrimp

[Mantisdreamz]

Mollie's bad play aside, I think she did drop significant scum tells that should be examined and addressed by Thor so we can examine the full case and his defense.

problem is, Thor can't really address the scummy tells that molie dropped.

[Mantisdreamz]

Adam, it doesn't matter. He isn't going to argue that his slot is scum and he didn't make the slips so he isn't responsible for them.

that would be fair for him to argue that point.

[Mantisdreamz]

I just finished Mala's wall and I would like to state for the record that I don't like how all that brought her to vote for Levi who is nothing more than a policy lynch; I think we will do better by lynching scum.

I wasn't so certain about her wall of text either. it seemed as though there were quite a lot of random quotes and responses to people. Some of her responses were slightly negative or slightly positive. by the end i was surprised to see where she slotted everyone, because it seemed like she could have easily put everyone as null. <-that's a bit of an exaggeration, (because she did have you, Adam as leaning town and Levi as leaning scum with the posts) but for everyone else she linked that was the sense i got.

[Mantisdreamz]

Levi is not a policy lynch. Levi is

possibly

scum because of the anti-town things that he has done.

-he claimed blacksmith
-he made a list of reads where everyone was 'innocent' with a few as 'innocentish'
-he asked what appeared to be a large amount of questions in his beginning post
-he pointed out that you were making an innocent mistake when you voted him at the beginning for thinking that he was trying to prolong the confirmation stage (the pointing out you were innocent for that, is hat caught my attention)

^mala, i think you said the last 2 weren't really tells.

but the first 2 things, don't really seem that scummy to me. they could be noob town. putting everyone down as innocent? seems better than putting everyone as scum.

just looking at your conversation here on page 32, posts 792-797. Levi appears genuine. he realizes that he made a mistake in claiming at the beginning. but it looks like you are just trying to push his lynch for it.

Levi ends off the convo as

you're really confusing me here. =/ i have called you town all game minus one or two posts claiming that either you are really good at fooling me or you are town like I feel you are. labeling things in a scum mindset? what does that mean? that I am cautious and trying to think things through and trying to think how scum would act so we can best monitor their movements and see who they are? thats like total pro town behavior or maybe i'm just stupid. how do i clearly label you as scum? FOR THE LAST TIME I DO NOT THINK YOU"RE SCUM!

[Malakittens]

No, I'm not really seeing the benefit of him helping the town by it. I see scum motivation in it going for reactions to what people saying regarding it.

[Mantisdreamz]

The choice today is me or Thor. Lynch me right now if you seriously want to let Thor start fresh. I refuse to sit here and watch him de-scum a scum slot. The thing that pisses me off the most is seeing Pirate Mollie in the thread watching this all go down and laugh at the irony of it all.

i think it just shows everyone who is viewing the forum, not necessarily this thread.

[Thor665]

Thor is clearly spinning.

I don't know how much more clearly this ^ can be stated. Every attack on him or Molly is clearly silly in his words.

Hint: they are.

1.

I'll run through these cases really quick;

- you call her scummy for trying to figure out what someone else is thinking (I would call that an obvious town tell, frankly - it's at least scumhunting, so...?)
- You call her scummy for thinking your stated desire to hammer was scummy and defending the person you wanted to hammer - that's as likely to come from town as scum. She also twisted nothing.
- You call out Mollie for not calling you scummy till she said she found evidence that you looked scummy...again, that seems kinda normal.
- I actually agree that the scum slip push was dumb - but her reaction to it afterward doesn't look scummy to me at all.

Spinning is just Mollie's way of saying I don't like what you posted but can't logically refute your point.

Lulz

Thor is clearly spinning.

I don't know how much more clearly this ^ can be stated. Every attack on him or Molly is clearly silly in his words.

- and then back to 'obviously scum replace out, town are highly unlikely to...reasons to be explained at a later date for how that is remotely true.

2. I am not going to make a case based on theoreticals that have yet to occur. But here is one association I did notice early-on.

Allow me to sum up.
If Thor flips scum we get info.
If he flips town we get bupkiss.

The truth is there actually is info to get if I flip town, but I don't think you'd like those conclusions.
So, really, all you're saying is it's good to lynch scum, because then we can get info from their flip. I totally agree with this - but it does nothing to say why I should be that flip and therefore has no point in being brought up as a reason to help push through my lynch.

3. I am not worried about #2 scumspect's until you are lynched.

Yeah, keeps the field more open for you later - I understand.

4. My brilliant "case-closed" moment

Thor says.

Mollie says nothing of the sort about town benefiting from someone else in her slot. Her words were the game is "S*rfed for me". The real issue here boils down to motivation. I am not only saying she is being hypocritical, I am also saying she is playing to survive. This is scum's #1 game and she knows it. She even pointed it out herself.

1. The game being jacked up for her can actually be interpreted in a number of different ways - it is not an explicit comment. That you are claiming there is only one way to take it is why you look scummy in making that argument.

2. She is not playing to survive - she is out of the game. If town or scum wins the game she holds blame for a loss to her side, but she holds *no* claim to any win energy there. Again, this is a scummy suggestion.

This statement may be valid,

Uh-huh...

but the real question is, how many town players replace out

because

they are about to be lynched? I am sure lots of town players and scum players replace out because they don't have the time to invest in the game, or get bored. I have only seen scum replace out because they are on the lynching table. I don't really a lot of evidence for this, considering my lack of experience, but I would love to see some examples -Thor- of town players replacing out due to the probability of them being lynched. You fail to take into account the motivation factor.

Really?

Wow, so you have *ZERO* evidence, and are asking me if I have evidence to disprove something you are making up?

...the answer is, yeah, I do.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=21878
Town replaces out as leading wagon
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4020682
By the way, his final post is to complain he's too dumb to play the game properly...totally no relation to thinking the situation was bad and he was hurting anything by being there.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21773
This one has scum replacing out under no pressure and town replacing under pressure.

How's that work, sweet lips?

Also, you should look up ad hom - me pointing out that your logic is bad and calling you derp because of it is not ad hom.
I would need to not explain how your logic is bad for it to be ad hom. Ad hom is attacking the person *in place* of attacking the argument - I'm attacking your arguments, therefore me being rude to you by suggesting you have bad arguments is not ad hom. Also, you are really squinting to call those personal attacks...especially to the level that I'm using them to avoid addressing things - I'm actually demanding things to address in half of those.

Derp.

[Mantisdreamz]

No, I'm not really seeing the benefit of him helping the town by it. I see scum motivation in it going for reactions to what people saying regarding it.

I agree that it doesn't help. just not sure if there is really scum motivation behind it..

[Mantisdreamz]

I'm saying let the slot defend itself against all data -- that is the only pro-town thing left to do and let everyone decide whether to lynch Mollie or not. Its not as if we had an intent to hammer anyway and therefore a case is still left to be made.

true. and being that subbing out is a neutral tell, it's interesting how all of a sudden 'she should be hammered now'

[Malakittens]

Really? Are you saying scum won't deliabelty want to fish out reactions for finding PRs.

[Thor665]

Mollie's bad play aside, I think she did drop significant scum tells that should be examined and addressed by Thor so we can examine the full case and his defense.

problem is, Thor can't really address the scummy tells that molie dropped.

I can - I just have a limited scope to do so.

Thankfully, most of them aren't even scumtells, so mostly I jst have to try to explain how things that look townish are not scumtells. It is easier to do.

Want to vote ProHawk? What's your read on him?

[ProHawk]

*slow clap*

Wow Thor. You should just lynch me now because I am scum. Shoot me now.

[Mantisdreamz]

yea you generally are quieter as scum, but this game is a little different - with the length of the deadline. i don't think scum can really afford to be quiet.

Your post reminds me about the fact that Mollie had no case and no definitive scum list after 30 pages of content. Is that actually normal for her as town?

Come to think of it, I don't think you do either...

I think her not having a list right now is kind of a null tell. i've seen her do lists both as town and scum.

and no, i don't really have a full list, at this moment. this game has been all over the place for me. but for the sake of laying out my reads i'll put one together after i catch up on the last page and a half here or so.

[Mantisdreamz]

Really? Are you saying scum won't deliabelty want to fish out reactions for finding PRs.

he's pretty new to the game. Do you think that really was his intention? i'm not sure, i find that difficult to believe. also, it didn't look like a planned thing to say on his part, just kinda came out. (that's how it appeared)

[Mantisdreamz]

Mollie's bad play aside, I think she did drop significant scum tells that should be examined and addressed by Thor so we can examine the full case and his defense.

problem is, Thor can't really address the scummy tells that molie dropped.

I can - I just have a limited scope to do so.

Thankfully, most of them aren't even scumtells, so mostly I jst have to try to explain how things that look townish are not scumtells. It is easier to do.

Want to vote ProHawk? What's your read on him?

not too sure. I went from thinking mollie was scummy at the beginning, then to she's TOWN!, then back to doubting. prohawk has been sort of an enigma for me, but i'm not ready to lynch him right now.

[Mantisdreamz]

thor - what is your overall impression of malakittens?

[ProHawk]

I am not going to sit here and make this an arguing fest especially when we are already 40 pages in on Day 1 because everything I say you have some sort of sarcasm, rebuttal, or contradiction to. I have made my case, you can continue to throw out your manipulators. Everyone else can make their own choice.

[Mantisdreamz]

My scum reads are basically Mollie > Mantis.

You are saying they are both scum together?

Hard to say really. The way they act has me thinking that they are not both scum together. I figure that at least one of them is scum. Rare chance of them both being scum.

why did you figure at least one of us had to be?

[Mantisdreamz]

@Mantis: What's your opinion of Mollie replacing out and how does it compares to her meta?

honestly think that she wouldn't do that as scum. but i'm not going to be pushing that line of thought. I said above in response to an Adam post that it should be seen as a null thing.