Open 465 - Wot's... Uh the Deal? (Game Over! Town Win!)

[leviathan93]

ok. then glad you put your thoughts on the matter. I was just making a comment on a possible lead that town could look into. you say there is nothing to it. okay then. I wouldn't know, because i didn't get that "you are scum" message. "here is how you can talk to each other".

Vote Count

Adam-12 (L-4): Malakittens
Pirate Mollie (L-2): Shrimp85, Guile, ProHawk
Mantisdreamz(L-4): borkjerfkin
borkjerfkin (L-4): Adam-12
Leviathan (L-4): Pirate Mollie

Not Voting: leviathan93, Mantisdreamz

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[pirate mollie]

lol just saw this in post edit:

That, but I think they were asking if scum were allowed to talk during the pre game confirmation stage.

Oh. Yes, they are/were.

based on this post. I also was thinking that the

those of us who are scum

knew that one could use the quicktopic chat thing before the game. this I would rule is their experience told them that. Shrimp guy and I are the ones I know that apparently did not know this was possible as shrimp guy did say that he didn't know. he could have been lying but all in all hawks post about him making a unintentional town tell seems to be understandable. therefore. I feel me, shrimp, adam, hawk. as town. mala could also be possible town and is leaning that way, but i'm worried about a wrong gut feeling with her. that leaves, mantis, possble scum, and guille as well with a possible borkkhfergnin or whatever his name is. but i think borkergin is town.

LOL.






VOTE: leviathan

lol, to you as well. some of you still don't believe i'm town, so why should I continue trying to keep myself out of the US factor when referring to us? =P "those of us who are scum" should I instead have said "those of you who are scum"?

levi if you are town I feel your pain. like for realz.

it looked like a scum slip to me.

[Malakittens]

Wow, wtf, I just realized that.

[leviathan93]

lol. ok. mollie. =P is calling myself scum a scumslip?

[pirate mollie]

adam, hawk boy, does that explain why mantis thinks that I am town? when you have played together that much you pretty much have a good grasp of their meta. while mantis and I both have the potential to sneak past each other as scum it is very rare that one of us will give the other a super strong town read and it not be correct.

@Mantis: So is that correct or is it you want to wait until later. I don't recall you commenting on this yet?

no, i don't think i have commented on it.

i'm not going to say much right now. But, i am second guessing (sorry mollie). Just reading through guille's posts - i like them.. they come across as calm and they're clear too.

speaking of, guille. guille you said:

And in one of your latest posts, you say " Adam, levi or guille should be lynched this day. "
I really don't agree. Adam-12 is seriously getting a town read from me, and Guille has done nothing else than make a case on those he finds suspicious.

no, i said: Adam - levi or guille should be..... etc

note the dash, i was speaking to him. but on second thought, i shouldn't be telling people who to lynch i guess. I have adam as town as well.

hmmm. Your original statement had no dash. the original is ambiguous so I can understand any confusion.

yep, i realized my mistake in post 547.


anyway,
UNVOTE: guille

There are a few things that mollie said that i didn't like. the tanking thing and the scum perfume. those do stick out to me.

and mollie, i haven't heard you say those kinds of things before. they can be seen as excuses.

going to take a slow re read of maybe the last 8 pages or so. and maybe do a reset, since guille isn't seeming as scummy to me, as before.

do a site search of my posts yes I have brought up tanking on this site before.

the scum cologne is something that I have noticed cos after a player comes off of a series of scum games they tend to post from a scum motivation i.e. obsessed about indies, special hunting, etc I am thinking of borealis that is why I track on her so hard.

also I am not going to go ballistic on you if you vote me I went ballistic on gib cos he should really know better and his vote started off as a drunk vote.

k. remember the post where you said that scum might boil down to levi and guille.

and then i agreed with you.. and shouted out to adam that he should vote one of those 2.

later on, i got to thinking that levi and guille were both somewhat inactive at that point, and i retracted my comment about both them being scum, since it seems as though at least one scum member would probably be putting in more effort. in other words, i got thinking that both were somewhat easy lynches.

do you agree with me on this?

erm, I entertained the idea that guille was town a while ago did you not read my posts I was badgering hawk boy about how likely it was that scum would look back on previous games. he said yeah they would but when have we ever seen scum do this.

[pirate mollie]

lol. ok. mollie. =P is calling myself scum a scumslip?

I would say yes.

[ProHawk]

levi if you are town I feel your pain. like for realz.

it looked like a scum slip to me.

You should be lynched on this premise alone. His grammar is consistent with his overall voice ala

not

a scum-slip.

[pirate mollie]

levi if you are town I feel your pain. like for realz.

it looked like a scum slip to me.

You should be lynched on this premise alone. His grammar is consistent with his overall voice ala

not

a scum-slip.

lol

[ProHawk]

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt Mollie, I thought maybe you were working an angle, which is why I voted you without any explanation, but Post #676 clearly states to the contrary.

[pirate mollie]

okay

[Adam-12]

Well, I instantly knew looking at it that it was semantics and I am only a vertical logic player; even if it IS (its not) a scum slip, nobody is going to lynch off of it anyway. My instincts wouldn't allow me to vote that or even consider it just because so many times I have seen it shot down.

Can't see why Mollie wouldn't have known this.

[Malakittens]

My god Adam, do you really have a bloody post count of 200? Fucking overexcited scum.

[ProHawk]

Hey Mala, lets see some real content from you. K. Thx.

[leviathan93]

is lot of posts really scumworthy?

[Malakittens]

I was honestly joking.

I was overexcited as scum in my first scum game.

Hey Pro, lay off, I have supplied content.

Also, Guille it's hard to meta someone with one completed game. >.>

[Adam-12]

Truthfully tho, there were alot of posts over the weekend and I'm wondering if you have commented on them definitively.

[ProHawk]

Truthfully tho, there were alot of posts over the weekend and I'm wondering if you have commented on them definitively.

^This

Last scum-hunting attempt I see is post #313 for Adam which you have completely dropped but maintain a vote.

[Shrimp85]

okay, I'm sorry I have been quiet the last couple days. but I'm going to be joining the game effectively from now on again.
I was in another game at the same time as having to work, and now that game has finished, I can put my free time into this game.

[guille2015]

my point is. the more experienced players are scum. i'm sorry I don't know how personally experienced all of you are or who actually knows what. this could just be a lame unimportant assumption. but i thought it would be good to throw out there.

and exactly as I said mala. I feel there is a possibility here. do you not like that? i did not know that you could talk during the beginning as scum before the game started in the confirmation stage. majiffy claimed and said that the scum could talk during that time and DID talk during that time. because I was unaware that this was possible i'm wondering who out of us truly knew it was possible. maybe that was all of you except me and so it was pointless to say, but even if it was 3 of us innocents that would still make it only 4 people we would have to look at. i know lying is still a factor in this but still. i thought it would help.

This line of thinking is irrelevant. Mala did a test and you passed. Roles are given out randomly so testing for experience is not the way to go.

Spoiler:

Let me try replying page by page. Should be faster and more concise. I have read through to the end already, so I might reference things to come.

@Pirate Mollie

: The only other game that you used the word Grooming was the Newbie 1286 game. I don't want to read through it, can you give me a summary of where that got you, considering you were town in that game.

i've heard her use grooming countless times before.

Conclusion: Adam has the best case on Mollie, and I agree with him. She is inconsistent. She overreacts to certain accusations and her OMGUS is off the charts.

i like how you added in that Adam (who is most likely town) has a good case on her. maybe you are buddying up to him?

i think guille is making a huge case on mollie because, i think scum were banking on her getting lynched. and they want to keep it that way.

I think so too!!!!

(...)

guille what exactly are you asking about grooming I don't understand your question could you plz clarify.

What benefit would mafia get from lynching Mollie. If she is the closest to figuring out who is scum, then lynching her now is the last thing mafia want done.

I placed the grooming question outside of my reads. Hence it's not part of my reads directly. I do want to know about it though, because this is something that I use as a scum-hunting tool. Although I call it buddying. From what I read from Mollie she considers it as a scum tell. Which is fine. I noticed the times It has been used with me. Although your defenition of grooming is different.

The reason I asked is because I don't have time to read through that game to get to the information I need. Best to ask the source. What I want is how accurate was identifying the grooming in that game to finding scum. Is it an effective marker?

I am cautious of shrimp for this reason, but Mala I can safely say is clear for me. I recognize this play of mala as her town meta. Could she have improved to the point that I would think this way. That's a possibility, but it's not something I am concerned at this point.

The reason I want to understand Mollie with her use of grooming as a marker for scum, is because she has pointed out several instances of grooming towards me and yet she thinks I am scum. By what I understand the grooming marker is reflective of Scum grooming Town. If I am wrong correct me.

K I'm as caught up as I'm gonna get.

Levi is town for stuff, Shrimp's probably town for being just on a totally different page than everyone else, Adam's town for the sincerity of his case but I don't like that case save that I think Mollie's vote on shrimp was bad. Otherwise I think it's confirmation bias in the sense that you're giving explanations of why scum-mollie would be AtEing all over the place -- that's circular logic.

Guille is weird. The conclusions in #462 (Adam's case being good) don't follow from the rest of that post (basically that Mollie does logical fallacies and ad-hominem, neither of which are scumtells).

Mollie's only bad points so far have been her voting patterns -- and that's honestly something I only really want to delve into if we get a scum flip. I'd sooner vote Guille over Mollie, but:

VOTE: ProHawk
#257 makes me wanna dig out that picture where the dude says "joke's on them I was only faking being retarded" because that's pretty much what you're doing here. Everyone you quoted in that post's reactions were some variation on "what the hell are you doing?" Mollie's was just a little blunter than the others -- and you didn't lambaste Mala for having essentially the same exact reaction. His jump off Mollie in #449 is awful especially with the tone of the rest of that post pointing to Mollie being scum and being dodgy about exactly what about Guille is bad to him.

@Mollie -- I'm Code. Why am I answering how you felt about him?

Bork, it's too bad you don't have a clue. But you're town so not much I can do about that.

I don't think that this posts clears him as town. I don't see scum intent however. But he is wrong though. Prohawk wants me lynched, and he says that I am likely scum with Prohawk. This game is not a game that benefits mafia if they bus each other on day one. Any serious intent of lynching between players is an indication that those two players are likely not scum buddies. In which case his argument falls short. Prohawk is probably town. Bork I am uncertain of yet.

Bork, logical fallacies and ad-hominem, are in fact scumtells or at the very least bad town play as they tend to reach the wrong conclusion. About the ad-hominem, I've been in this site long enough to know that I cannot use that as an argument for scummyness. I mention it in the previous post not as a way to say that Mollie is scum, but rather that Mollie's arguments are not good.

wth bold: how does that even make sense. scum will want anybody lynched who is not on there team especially if that person is fosing them. I am seriously not understanding your logic here.

If you flip town, FOS will fall on me. So, If I were scum the last thing I'd do was to lynch you. However, that's WIFOM regardless. We cannot figure out scum intent in who they want to lynch and why.

BTW, please answer my question:

Mollie

: If I were to trust that you are town and right. Other than voting for myself, who should I vote for?

in response to my question okay that clears things up.

I am not sure who you should vote for I don't even know who to vote for lol. I say hawk boy cos given the content of his posts he should know better but I still wonder about borky. shrimp guy is doing exactly what I expect scum to do he is mischaracterising and misrepresenting posts yet he is being given a pass and he is skating.

mischaracterisation and misrepresentation are tools used by scum logical fallacies and ad homs are not, you should probably listen to borky on this for future reference there is a difference.

I somewhat agree, however, Scum are likely to commit a much larger portion of logical fallacies than town would, specifically because they want the town to look guilty. Ad Homs are not scum tells. But logicall fallacies will lead you to scum easier. Mischaracterization and misrepresentation are logical fallacies in themselves.

lol just saw this in post edit:

That, but I think they were asking if scum were allowed to talk during the pre game confirmation stage.

Oh. Yes, they are/were.

based on this post. I also was thinking that the

those of us who are scum

knew that one could use the quicktopic chat thing before the game. this I would rule is their experience told them that. Shrimp guy and I are the ones I know that apparently did not know this was possible as shrimp guy did say that he didn't know. he could have been lying but all in all hawks post about him making a unintentional town tell seems to be understandable. therefore. I feel me, shrimp, adam, hawk. as town. mala could also be possible town and is leaning that way, but i'm worried about a wrong gut feeling with her. that leaves, mantis, possble scum, and guille as well with a possible borkkhfergnin or whatever his name is. but i think borkergin is town.

LOL.

VOTE: leviathan

This is not a scumslip.

[guille2015]

Wow, wtf, I just realized that.

What did you realize?

Hey Mala, lets see some real content from you. K. Thx.

I also want this. And yes, you have supplied content, but not of late.

I was honestly joking.

I was overexcited as scum in my first scum game.

Hey Pro, lay off, I have supplied content.

Also, Guille it's hard to meta someone with one completed game. >.>

I know it's hard, that's why I am not doing it. If I had time, I'd read that entire game to see if Mollie OMGUSed like she does here.

Mala: Can you remind me why you have a vote on Adam.

[borkjerfkin]

I've been looking at Mala since I've not been able to get a feel for her based on anything that's happened in the past two days.

#14 is a good opening and is inherently pro-town.
#53 is not where I'd have gone with that reaction test. Shrimp doesn't look like he's defending Levi there -- it really looks to me like he honestly believed Mala was kidding. That assertion by Shrimp doesn't really work for a "defense", anyway, and it's not a chainsaw for Levi because he's not really "attacking" Mala there. It's only slightly suspicious to me because there was already a bandwagon forming on Shrimp at the time, but otherwise I'd just be saying that she'd gone the wrong direction with it.

#93: Her jump off of Shrimp doesn't make #53 seem as scum motivated as I'd initially suspected since if she were, she'd be trying to secure a spot on that wagon, and nobody else had jumped off by #93.

#166 -- Reads are sensible at this point in the game.

#243 is reasonable re: ProHawk's #242.

#262 evokes a question: @Mala -- do you actually have a town read on Guille? I'm not really getting a feel for how you feel about him other than you didn't want to quicklynch him.

#313: Mixed feelings here. on one hand, if Mala's town this is a sensible vote to make as she's on a different page than her accuser. On the other hand, if she is scum she's trying to deflect attention away from the fact that she's giving a defense on Guille without coming out and saying she has a town read on Guille. Since there's two plausible explanations here, this doesn't tell me much on its own.

Overall her posts are logical and she did legitimate scumhunting toward the beginning of the game. I'm only worried about:
1) Her interactions with Guille.
2) Her dropoff in scumhunting since around the ~300 post range. She was active elsewhere recently, just not here. Not a huge sample size so not going to harp on that point.
3) Slight lack of transparency.

Overall: just left of center on the town side.

[Shrimp85]

@ Prohawk,
post 470

"Shrimp, Guilles scumminess is in plain sight, but beyond the field of view."

This does not answer my question, I asked why you find Guille2015 scum.

post 528,

"If I didn't believe that you are town, I would be all over your for your sub-par play. You can either drop the Village Idiot act, or get to helping us find scum. Read the whole thread yet? Your reads are way off due to your lack of commitment."

Here you are talking to Borkjerfkin, I don't believe Borkjerfkin is playing the village idiot, his play style is different than yours.
His reads seem pretty logical to me to be honest.

post 562,
I don't like your logic on your reads on Mollie and Guille at all.
This sounds like a horrible plan. So, you admit that if you lynch mollie and she IS town, this will not help you with your read on Guille.
So, don't connect them.

-===========================================================================-

@Mantisdreamz
post 484

"and i am taking a big leap of faith here cause she as often tricked me as scum"

Leap of faith? This smells rotten.

"why is he going to such huge effort to get her lynched?"

And this smells too, why is he trying to lynch someone he finds scum you ask? Is this not what we all do?
So let me get this straight, you are voting Guille because he is making a case against Mollie, and his posts are big?
At first they were too little, now too big. I have the feeling it doesn't matter what Guille does, you'll find him guilty because Mollie does.
And no, there was no dash between the name, you said "Adam, levi or guille should be lynched this day."

"where on earth do you get the part where i'm calling him scum if he doesn't??"

Well, let me show you.

"^Adam, maybe you should remove your vote from mollie, if you are town."

see you say he has to remove his vote, if he is town. Meaning that if he doesn't he's scum. Don't think I'm stupid.

In post 634 ( and 644)
it seems you are having doubts about your read on Mollie.

-=======================================================================================-

@piratemollie
post 501

"also guille read one of my old games is that typical for scum to do on this site or are they like bork and can't even read the game that they are in? in my experience scum tends to be the latter."

There is no formula to finding scum. Everyone acts differently as scum, so you can consider certain actions scummy, but it doesn't mean that any of this is a certain scum tell.

post 504

"also shrimp guy, grooming is what you do during the game in order to prepare for endgame and if mantis were scum she would not want me around for endgame."

Oh, so now you aren't only creating WIFOM about yourself, now you're WIFOM-ing for Mantisdreamz too.
So if Mantisdreamz is scum, she would want you lynched, but because she isn't doing that, she must be town. Horrible

post 543,

"scum have more of a motivation to survive so they are more careful with their posts. that is what hawk boy means when he says scum try to hide and blend in. "

So, now you say scum do hide, at first it was that scum bump against the tides.

-========================================================================================-

@Adam-12,
post 519

"Your replace-in is typical of scum: Deer in the headlights. Scum paralysis; the overbearing weight of the thread and desire not to read. To "mail it in" if you will."

Here I understand you going against Bork for not reading the thread, but I have done the same thing as town too before.
My game had a lot more pages, but still, if the game had around 15 even, I would not like to read all of them.
I like it that you are scumhunting, but that alone is not enough to call someone scum IMO.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@borkjerfkin,
post 521

" I want to know why people have such a town hardon for prohawk because I think he's extremely scummy. Hence the question."

I actually agree with you on this one, Prohawk does say some things that are a bit scummy.
However, I can't say I have a big scum read on him either.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


My read

It is now confirmed that Pirate mollie knows Mantisdreamz personally.
Guille, you say not to use this in the game, but I can't help it. It's there,and I cannot ignore it.

I believe Mantis and Mollie know of each others alignment, and are working together.
Mantis has been following every step of mollie, but I believe she is now seeing that this is becoming too big of a risk to herself.
In these two posts she lets us know she is having her doubts about the town read on mollie In post 634 and 644.
I believe she knows Mollie is scum, and is getting ready for the possibility that Mollie might get lynched.

There, that took a while.

[guille2015]

It is now confirmed that Pirate mollie knows Mantisdreamz personally.
Guille, you say not to use this in the game, but I can't help it. It's there,and I cannot ignore it.

I said not to use the possibility of them cheating in the game. There are plenty of people in this forum that know each other personally. I don't expect them to cheat. Unless you find actual evidence of this breach in the rules of the forum then you should forget about this line of reasoning. If there is evidence of this then you should take it up with Majiffy.

That aside, only scum knows everyone alignment. I can only interpret your conclusion as to say that both Mantis and Mollie are scum. You have nothing to show otherwise.

[borkjerfkin]

I believe Mantis and Mollie know of each others alignment, and are working together.

Either you're implying that they're both scum or you're implying that they're cheating. If it's the former, say so. If it's not, well, that's incredibly disrespectful without some serious proof, and is something you'd take up with the moderator and not post in thread*. Which is it?

*Don't take this to mean that I am lending credence to that theory -- I'm not.

p-edit -- what guille said.

[Shrimp85]

I know it's usual for people to know each other personally in this game, but the reason I believe they know of each others alignments is because of the way Mantisdreamz was town reading Mollie.
Their main reason for calling each other town and teaming up is because they apparently know each other so well, and played so many games together.
I find this reason pretty lacking to be honest, and the way Mantisdreamz is now doubting her town read on Mollie when the heat on Mollie is continuing is telling me something isn't right.

So, I strongly believe either they are both scum.
Or they are working together behind the scenes. ( or both )
yes, it is possible that they are just working together and don't know of each others alignments, but really, I find that hard to believe,
for people who have played 60 + mafia games apparently, I would expect a little less sloppiness.
I don't expect there to be actual evidence... how can I prove this really?

I didn't think about mentioning this to the mod first, I was just posting what I thought, not thinking about how playing behind the game could get someone modkilled.
I guess I don't have to ask the mod anymore anyways. It's almost impossible for him not to see this.
But now it's out there

@MOD