Open 465 - Wot's... Uh the Deal? (Game Over! Town Win!)

[Adam-12]

Thor is clearly spinning. The evidence is right here (see bolded green above post). But his comment is to say it doesn't exist and its "derp". Well it DOES exist and its NOT derp. Care to try again Thor?

Vote Count

Thor665 (L-1): Shrimp85, Guile, Adam-12, ProHawk

Mantisdreamz (L-4): borkjerfkin
Leviathan (L-4): Malakittens
ProHawk (L-4): Thor665

Not Voting: leviathan93, Mantisdreamz,

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

@Guille
What Mollie was looking at regarding Levi.
I had a reason.

Is that all you are going to say about that?

I was kinda a bit tired on Wednesday. That's like the day I wake up at 630 am and take all clases until 8pm. >.>

Ok, well can you please expand on it now?

[Adam-12]

You gotta be joking!

The question is if she is frustrated scum.

I wasn't joking when I said it was the most anti-town thing she has said so far. In reality, if she is scum its the smartest thing she could do for her team because it ideally gives her replacement a "fresh-start" because we cannot question her replacement about anything that transpired prior to him entering the game.

Mala, I still need answers to my questions, but we need to lynch Mollie today.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mollie Pirate

I can only +1 this post and all the logic within it was solidly established before Thor even got here. I don't accept his refusal to read the thread as an excuse for spinning this logic as derp.

[Adam-12]

You gotta be joking!

The question is if she is frustrated scum.

I wasn't joking when I said it was the most anti-town thing she has said so far. In reality, if she is scum its the smartest thing she could do for her team because it ideally gives her replacement a "fresh-start" because we cannot question her replacement about anything that transpired prior to him entering the game.

Mala, I still need answers to my questions, but we need to lynch Mollie today.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mollie Pirate

I don't like how this sounds like a policy lynch.

Also Mollie-Thor is at L-1. So no quick hammers!

This is what I get for posting while at work.

At least I can commiserate with Thor here but that doesn't excuse him from needing to address the logic on its face.

[Adam-12]

@mala it wasn't being a kiss up. it was being truthful. borky made valid points. I agree with those points and thought they were logical.

I like logic and reason. especially in this game because why would scum want to use logic and reason other then to throw people off their trail.

the more logic someone uses the more it can be torn apart and figured out to see if it is true or not. I believe scum can be found that way.

and i know how you feel about my claim.

whether its helpful or not I want to find this out for myself. plus I also don't understand your fact that if I claimed why doesn't everyone believe me? huh? it could have been pointless and it just gives you a little bit to go off of.

i feel that I will either get killed during the night now or

kept alive to try to maybe throw you guys off the trail and lynch me yourselves while they kill y'all other innocents during the night.

"Can you take this lonely girl?
I pick her up from off the ground
'cause theres no pride, to be found
When you follow sheep around
And no future here, no future
For us in this town"

vote: Levi

Reason: inconsistent reads. Called me town in this post.
Yet the way I'm reading the end of this posthe has me clearly labeled in a scum mindset.

So:

Anti-town behavior. Claiming early. Helps scum out more than town.
Inconsistencies. (Oh man coming from me this is so

not

funny)
Labeling things in a scum mindset.

That's what did it regarding Levi, Mantis. I don't know why, but everything he said sounded like a scum slip towards the end.
The first part I feel as if he was saying that really only town could use logic and not scum. He then clarified it a post later, but I don't see how someone being logical will bring out a scum slip.

(Maybe I'm just horrible at finding these scum slips. I do can find odd and even things in conversations that make me go "wtf are you talking about" and then a flip appears and it all makes sense.)

You could repeatedly throw a dart at Levi's posts in the shape of a circle and come up with the same thing every time, no matter where it landed.

[leviathan93]

First of all I would like to say for me to honestly believe much of what thor says I would like him to read up and be caught up. I believe him to be an excellent player and if he really is town he would actually read it so he could catch and understand the mistakes that happened earlier on and know who was scum since for the most part I kind of trust him. At least for this other game i'm in with him as well. if he reads he can therefore make very accurate decisions and thoughts. I agree that a lot of us thought mollie to be scum for random reasons across the board. that being said, I understand prohawk's concern that we have to start over with her replacement because I specifically feel for thor that we won't have the same mistakes that mollie made "if she did make them". However, I really found the prohawks push for thors lynch and an end to the day to be really scummy and unsettling. i know its getting close to the end of the day and i know we all want a lynch but if we push it we are most likely to guess wrong. there is no rush for the end of the day. THIS if anything is what I would see as a scumslip. but i don't really know my abilities of being right or not.

[Adam-12]

I don't see how someone being logical will bring out a scum slip.

A lie can be logical on its face but yet it can be discovered as such, even though logical.

Maybe I'm just horrible at finding these scum slips.

Why are you saying this? Is your vote for Levi horrible?

I do can find odd and even things in conversations that make me go "wtsmurf are you talking about" and then a flip appears and it all makes sense.

So you want us to lynch Levi even though your case on him is horrible so that when he flips it will make sense?

I don't like where your vote has landed or your case on Levi. Guille will know more about how this fits into your meta.

[Adam-12]

Its contextual which means: YOU-NEED-TO-READ-THIS-THREAD

It's not contextual at all.

I could quiz you on this and I am certain you would end up spinning it as unnecessary because you wouldn't be able to answer me. But have it your way because its your choice not to read.

Listing every vote she did as weak is actually pretty weak for your case.

She votes Guille which is not bad at that time because he was hurting the game state.

Her votes HAVE been very weak. Show me where they have been strong because I don't think anyone in this thread can, even though they have read the whole thing and most certainly you cannot.

What I'm hearing is "being over defensive, dodging (the perfume thing and the Levi=easy vote thing), and playing against your understanding of her meta".
That sum it up?

No it doesn't. I have never used a meta argument against her but maybe what you should of said was her meta manipulation of Mantis.

I disagree with being over defensive even being a scumtell, natch.

You need to give context here because you can't just dismiss being over defensive across the board; in particular situations over-reacting CAN be scummy. In this particular case I was referring to Guille's vote where he merely said he had a vague scum gut read and she started criticizing it before he even brought a case; he left the thread and said he would be back tomorrow. Does that sound townie to you? It shouldn't. But don't let the details of actually reading the thread get in the way here.

Dodging is suspect, I'll agree.

Yes. Mantis has yet to weigh in on it but she spun Mantis pretty hard over her query into easy lynches. It was a simple yes or no question and she flipped it all around into a defensive post about how she had recently called Guille town. Doesn't sound townie to me at all.

The meta is a decent crutch (how often have you read her correctly in the past?)

You really should give reading a try it will do wonders for you. I have never used a meta argument against Mollie, we have never played before.

Is this really the best case of the day?

Its my case and I believe in it. Each person on the wagon should state their case as well.

So far you have been mailing-in your replace. If you don't improve, I don't think it will be possible that you will live.

[Adam-12]

I'm a girl and I'm not ignoring your entrance to the game. I don't like how Adam is wanting to others to hold horses regarding hammers, but not un-voting.

If somehow I felt that Mollie was town, I would unvote. But there is no reason to unvote in a non-newbie game. That's why I posted about Mollie being at L-1 and not to quick-hammer (express intent to hammer instead). That is more than sufficient for experienced players. I have seen experienced players unvote but I have never liked it and don't do it unless we are in a situation where scum could quick lynch for a win; I don't like how it seems to remove momentum from a wagon.

That bothers me that he wants people to slow down.

If I didn't advocate not quick hammering (express intent to hammer), that would mean allowing for a quick lynch which is irreversible. We have to go slower to avoid a quick lynch so why do you mention slowing down?

I understand the intent to hammer thing because I think hammering without asking/waiting for a claim is bad.

Excellent so then we agree.

[Adam-12]

Also, if PM had such a town read on Levi, why was she voting him right before she replaced out? She thought he was dropping scum slips.

So Thor, I'm not sure what you are reading, but you have facts wrong.

I was going after her attitude as expressed by Adam in his wall o' barely legible.
I'll accept her opinion changed, but I see no problem with moving Leviathan to the town side of null for that reason - do you?

Actually, the way it ran was in a cycle of he is scummy, oh I'm not sure, he is scummy and vote for him but I'm not sure... Basically I read it as doing her best to get a case going on him without looking too bad. Its clear that she knew he was an easy lynch and her scummy deflection and misdirection when Mantis queried her on it proves that.

Mollie's jumping on his quote "those of us who are scum" was the latest incarnation and is the reason her vote was on him when she decided to play Mafia-Tag-Team. Everyone in this thread saw that it was just semantics except Mala.

I don't think Mala referencing Mollie's "case" on Levi is helping her own case out much...

[Malakittens]

Man. I still want to put a post restriction on you Adam.
Would you still like to continue putting a spin on my Levi case?

I want to say something about my meta, but ill wait for Guille to respond first

[Adam-12]

Did I miss something about it?

[Malakittens]

If you don't see it, I'd suggest trying to see it. Might be just English isn't his first language, but reading it in the context I read it doesn't look like something a town would say, frankly.

[Adam-12]

I will revert back to my dart board analogy. He's kind of like a scum Rorschach test.

[Malakittens]

No comment. Just no comment. I will get into a debate with you after this game regarding that comment.

[Adam-12]

Well, are you serious about your Levi case?

[Malakittens]

Why wouldn't I be serious about my Levi case? >.>

[Adam-12]

Because given the opportunity to point out the specifics, you deferred to an after-game conversation.

[Thor665]

Levi is not a policy lynch. Levi is

possibly

scum because of the anti-town things that he has done.

Can you describe them in 1-2 sentences?

This was no contradiction, I never read it as such either. This was Mollie

manufacturing

a contradiction and trying to make it fly. Hawk even explained it but it was blatantly obvious regardless.

It's not a contradiction, but it is a question about his scumhunting beliefs and a valid question to ask.

I don't see what is wrong with saying this lands on more likely scum than town since she was saying practically all game (no lie) that she should be lynched for her team and her post here is clearly cog-dis.

So Thor is clearly spinning this or at least not taking the time to understand the reality of her behavior; what a surprise since he refuses to read the thread...

I don't see what is right with saying that either. Please list for me all the roles (besides Jester) that will help their team by being lynched?
I can think of one, and it is a town role. If I squint I can manage two, and both are town roles.
In a general theoretical, no team, mafia or town, really benefits their side by being lynched.
That makes Mollie derp for saying this - she could be derp town or derp scum in normal ratios.

because it's obvious she

did

care about getting lynched or she wouldn't have replaced out.

[/quote]
His quotes do not show that she cared about being lynched.
Show me where they did.

I can only +1 this post and all the logic within it was solidly established before Thor even got here. I don't accept his refusal to read the thread as an excuse for spinning this logic as derp.

Oh, you're saying scum request replacement more than town?
I'd actually be happy to put money on a bet saying you're wrong.
I'll actually even try to find the numbers and do the research if we put enough money on it.
Interested?
Maybe just even explain where you got your info that scum replace out more than town?

First of all I would like to say for me to honestly believe much of what thor says I would like him to read up and be caught up. I believe him to be an excellent player and if he really is town he would actually read it so he could catch and understand the mistakes that happened earlier on and know who was scum since for the most part I kind of trust him.

Did you notice my post where I pointed out that I *never* read up on games anymore?
Reading is overrated.

Her votes HAVE been very weak. Show me where they have been strong because I don't think anyone in this thread can, even though they have read the whole thing and most certainly you cannot.

Explain to me why being unsure of a vote makes her more likely to be scum.
Honestly it seems like a town trait.
I've played one other game with her, she was scum, she was quite certain of her opinions.
:shrug:

No it doesn't. I have never used a meta argument against her but maybe what you should of said was her meta manipulation of Mantis.

My bad - thought this "She took exception to my read on her where if she is scum, she is calm and collected to the point of inserting a secret message into one of the quote posts about it." was a claim of understanding her meta.

You need to give context here because you can't just dismiss being over defensive across the board; in particular situations over-reacting CAN be scummy.

I doubt it, but, sure, sell me. AT least you do agree it isn't a clear scumtell, which is nice.

In this particular case I was referring to Guille's vote where he merely said he had a vague scum gut read and she started criticizing it before he even brought a case; he left the thread and said he would be back tomorrow. Does that sound townie to you? It shouldn't.

1. Asking for clarification of an unexplained scum read strikes me as VERY normal.
2. Guile hiding from the thread is not Mollie's fault, and frankly makes him look more scummy than Mollie in my opinion.
What am I missing?

Yes. Mantis has yet to weigh in on it but she spun Mantis pretty hard over her query into easy lynches. It was a simple yes or no question and she flipped it all around into a defensive post about how she had recently called Guille town. Doesn't sound townie to me at all.

Being accused of hunting easy lynches (Guile and Leviathan) and responding by pointing out that she'd just called Guile town actually seems like a very good response to me.
If she was hunting their easy lynches, why call one of them town? :shrug:

So far you have been mailing-in your replace. If you don't improve, I don't think it will be possible that you will live.

Maybe everyone else should improve? I've actually been doing quite well. The problem is not many of you seem to understand what scum and town tells are and are reacting in odd ways to the info you have.

You still haven't addressed my point on ProHawk in a functional way - considering your case on Mollie you should be hyper excited by my case on ProHawk - as it's even better.

[Malakittens]

I had to read a book that was related to that test. It has nothing to do with this game unless you are going to sit here and insult. It's not something that belongs in this thread.

[Thor665]

Short breakdown of the wall above.

Adam fails to grok the oddity of him not addressing my case on ProHawk while chiding me for not reading the whole thread.
His case on Mollie...isn't actually a case, and most of the things he calls scumtells I'm calling town tells.

The rest of the game lurks.
There isn't a counterwagon to Thor.
No one seems to understand what this means, even as they can't point at any scum bussing me.

Thor shakes his head in sadness.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Leviathan
Vote: ProHawk

@Mod]/b]

Not that I'm calling you bad at your job, but...

[Thor665]

Unvote: Leviathan
Vote: ProHawk

@Mod

Not that I'm calling you bad at your job, but...

[guille2015]

My scum reads are basically Mollie > Mantis.

You are saying they are both scum together?

Hard to say really. The way they act has me thinking that they are not both scum together. I figure that at least one of them is scum. Rare chance of them both being scum.

[Adam-12]

Ok, maybe I somehow didn't make myself clear. Isn't a Rorschach test where you look at blobs and describe what you see? Levi's posts are like that; you can see different scum things over and over. I'm not trying to be insulting, its just where he is at right now in his level play; its a reality of the game that is common to many new players.

RE: Thor walls. Its going to be wall wars when I wake up I guess. I kind of liked how this game didn't devolve into that all game long.