Brightest Day Mafia, Part 1 - GAME OVER

[zMuffinMan]

/confirm

[zMuffinMan]

Skimmed so far, choices were 3>1>2, catching up properly after some sleep.

[zMuffinMan]

About halfway through catching up on this.

Question: Does anybody know whether dana usually gives full fake-claims to scum (as in,

including

town's win con)? Because Andrius knowing town's win con, and blatantly stating it in the thread is making me think he's town. I'm also surprised no one has mentioned this yet. For reference, I'm talking about #79 here.

Also something about Mr Subliminal's posts is making me think he's town, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

[zMuffinMan]

Also, just generally not seeing Andrius as scum.

[zMuffinMan]

hiplop, tanstalas, toast, inhim town. LLD, ooba prob town, too.

VOTE: Toogeloo

^That guy is scum, though.

I actually have no idea what to make of vezok right now. It seems like he's claiming Ice.... And his role is "Freezer"? And he's retracted his claim of being a white lantern?

Also don't feel too good about FrozenMirror and nopoint.

Interested in why CJ wanted Andrius to fullclaim.

Interested in why Andrius felt the need to state what town's win con is, even though he acknowledged it's a moot point.

[zMuffinMan]

Nikanor and Friend added to previously stated town list. Mastin and Subliminal get a ticket in, too.

I really don't like this Andrius wagon. Literally haven't seen anything that makes me think he's scum, and there's certain things he's saying that are striking the right chords with me.

Ooba votes are also pretty meh. Can be summed up as: ooba random voted, ooba wants to lynch cult, ooba hasn't posted much content 3 RL days into the game.

CJ is probably scum of some sort. The difference of opinion on the CR issue makes me think he could be CR/backup CR. Also find it ironic that he's saying Ooba is likely scum for focusing on finding cult, not mafia, when it seems CJ is focused on finding mafia, not cult. Also the whole setup speculation doesn't sit well with me.

I like where my vote currently is. #276 is just like "yo I'm ready to bust out mah fakeclaim". If this Toogeloo wagon doesn't pick up for the first half of the day, I'll be moving to CJ.

Also really don't see the point in mass-claiming.

[zMuffinMan]

@toog,

I am actually not following who has the most votes. I just figured it was Andrius in the lead followed by vezok. There also seems to be more support for their lynches in general. It's not anticipation of your wagon stalling, it's a statement (If X -> Then Y). You know, so you know where my suspicions lie. Consider what I said about voting CJ if your wagon died an overly elaborate way of saying "FoS".

Anyway, you're still scum in #301. Cool.

Just answer a few questions to me. Make believe you're town for a sec.

1) If you think Ooba is scummy for focusing on finding cult, do you think it's ironic that CJ is focused on finding mafia?
2) Why do you think I, as scum, would feel at all compelled to defend Ooba, my buddy, who has very little suspicion at the moment?
3) What was the purpose of your question to Nikanor?

I'm hoping Nikanor doesn't answer that question.

[zMuffinMan]

me.

[zMuffinMan]

Friend definitely isn't scum. I am 99.9% sure he's not scum because of his reads list when he entered the game. Confirmed because of the mod PM.

[zMuffinMan]

hi. I've got to catch up on 20 pages or so I've missed. Disappointed ooba was lynched, the wagon on him had no good reasoning. It should have been rather obvious he wasn't cult and he wasn't scum (at least not red) after the toog flip.

Does FM flipping cult cop mean that he was recruited overnight, or is there more cult than just the leader that we know of?

cult cop is a cop that gets "cult" or "not cult" reports. Not cult-aligned.

[zMuffinMan]

Apok
Weyoun
Kast
nopoint
GhostWriter

Any of the above I'd be fine with lynching.

Also beginning to suspect I'm wrong about Toast being town. Also could be wrong about subliminal.

VOTE: Apok

[zMuffinMan]

Vezok. What does your freezer ability do? If you don't want to answer this, tell me whether it's a day ability and whether you used it on someone yesterday.

I

think

vezok targeted CJ yesterday. It doesn't say much about either vezok or CJ's alignment, but it does explain a lot.

[zMuffinMan]

#748

Just making note of this for now. I have some theories in light of the mastin kill today, but I want to organise some thoughts about this.

[zMuffinMan]

So, I'm thinking LLD was a scum kill, Frozen was hero-vigged and we have day-killing scum.

Still happy with my Apok vote.

Muffin, let me tell you again; nopoint's town.

why?

[zMuffinMan]

@Friend,

Muffin, let me tell you again; nopoint's town.

why?

@vezok

I was really just trying to figure out why CJ's ooba hammer didn't go through. If you're claiming it wasn't you, then I don't really care what your ability is at this point in time.

[zMuffinMan]

The day cop was a lie. toog was just obvscum.

[zMuffinMan]

@CJ,

Just to be clear, what type of scum are you accusing me of being? Cult or Redscum or other scum or not sure?

Also, why does it matter that I outed my suspicion before vezok answered?

[zMuffinMan]

@subliminal

Do you have any passive abilities?

@toast,

Short of scum receiving white lantern fake-claims (and, given the 'leader' of the red lantern corps claimed green lantern, I'm inclined to believe that's not the case), nikanor cannot be scum. It

was

a gambit. That's it.

ftr, I have reason to believe that you're town (not going to give any details about this at the moment, and I could very well be wrong) but you should probably stop self-voting.

[zMuffinMan]

wat

[zMuffinMan]

I have some theories, but I want to hear from subliminal and hiplop before I go into anything.

ftr, I think you're wrong about toast and hiplop, nik. I also think paraphrasing what dana sent yesterday is a bad idea.

also

@vezok

Are you a white lantern?

[zMuffinMan]

And the point I'm trying to make is that you're mafia who thought that I was cult fakeclaiming an SK result on you. You jump right on me thinking that I'm cult, assuming you'll get town cred

when

I flip scum.

Wait... what?

It makes sense if you read it properly

-Muffin, berating town for a mistaken lynch especially when your opposition to it beforehand was weak? That's not very town.

Really? Do elaborate. Are you referring to the 20 or so pages in which I wasn't around, or are you referring to what I said before I flaked?

[zMuffinMan]

A couple things, Apok.

1) You're grossly over-exaggerating what I said

2) I

was

opposed to the ooba wagon, even when there wasn't any sort of substantial wagon on him. He was a town read of mine, and there was no case on him. You don't remember toog voting ooba and FoSing me, calling us scum buddies because I defended ooba?

[zMuffinMan]

It's hard to answer some of those questions without going into a lot more detail than I'd like to at this point.

For now, it's probably best to assume that no one inside the group of 'masons' is scum.

[zMuffinMan]

@hiplop

In your next post, answer this question: Did you receive your white lantern ring? Y/N

@subliminal

Do you have any passive abilities? Y/N

[zMuffinMan]

Why does it matter which of the anti-town factions we think you are

Why are you avoiding the question?

as long as we recognize anti-town intent from your play and actions

Go on...

[zMuffinMan]

uh... er... hm... I think you're confused. Or I'm confused.

[zMuffinMan]

@hiplop,

Go back and read the PM you got properly and make sure you understand it. If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, you're confusing something.

@CJ,

What are you hoping to gain out of this question?

It interests me. Apart from the fact that your whole "recognition of anti-town intent" is that I asked vezok a question and didn't assume he's scum (ya, totally anti-town, my apologies), I just want to know specifically whether or not you think I'm cult or mafia or something else. If you don't have an answer, just say so. No need to tiptoe around the issue.

[zMuffinMan]

No, I'm asking because I'm genuinely interested in seeing what answer you come up with. I don't have any intention of shooting you down because you're blatantly wrong. I just want to see what you have to say. You think Apok is cult, you thought ooba was mafi and I'm just... anti-town. Kind of disappointing.

[zMuffinMan]

Also interested in why you think what you think because prior to this conversation, your suspicion of me literally amounts to me asking vezok a question and not assuming he's scum. And from this you recognised anti-town intent.

[zMuffinMan]

Because you're giving your target a lifeboat rather than giving them the chance to out themselves as scum with their own words.

I actually think vezok is more likely town than scum. But, given that his claimed ability name is "Freezer" and your vote was "frozen" yesterday, I wanted to verify whether he targeted you (also recall him mentioning that his ability is stronger given the fact it's a double lynch).

Anyway, two things:

1) Apart from the vezok thing, do you have any real reason to believe I'm scum?
2) It might be a good idea to test whether your vote is stuck again.

--

On another note, I actually think WLC is town. I don't really have anything to substantiate this, though. Mostly gut and the fact I'm not reading him as scum.

Also ooba's case on him was based

entirely

on meta.

[zMuffinMan]

Yes. You are confused.

[zMuffinMan]

tbh, my vote on apok is a combination of poe, gut and a lack of genuine scumhunting from him (imo).

Although, in rereading his ISO, I think it's a lot more likely that he's red-scum than cult. This makes a hell of a lot of sense if you consider Apok's early vote on nik a chainsaw and Apok's vote on ooba joining a counter-wagon.

I also don't think it's WLC.

I need to think about this.

[zMuffinMan]

Hey, subliminal. Do something to make me think you can't be CR. I'm getting paranoid here.

[zMuffinMan]

@subliminal

It would help if I understood the thought process behind the entity claim. Because I've been going over it in my head and there are some things that don't make sense.

You say you drew attention to yourself and made it likely you'd be a NK target but... you retracted the entity claim, so like... yeah... kind of invalid. Also invalid when you consider the CR in the last game was bulletproof - I'm not sure what to make of you ignoring that.

[zMuffinMan]

@subliminal,

I don't think you need to be dealt with at this point in time. At least not before Apok is lynched. My plan right now is lynch Apok, see flip, go from there.

Also, my paranoia about you stems not so much from "anti-town" intentions as trying-to-look-like-town-gambiting. I also have two other reasons for my paranoia that I'd rather not go into detail about at this point in time.

In a game with 2 night kills and a day kill, I'd say there's a fairly good chance CR is bulletproof, if not completely action immune (and full action immunity would make some sense given the double lynch mechanic). Why do you think this isn't the case?

[zMuffinMan]

Actually the "wonder quads" includes hiplop but not npiau. npiau is town according to friend.

[zMuffinMan]

So. I still think WLC is town and a bad lynch. The questioning of Friend reads as town who's genuinely suspicious, but the questioning needs to stop. There is a very, very simply explanation for why he didn't know he's a white lantern, but it's probably not a good idea to go into detail about it (especially given the recent warnings from the mod).

So far all I've seen said about WLC-as-scum is that he's not very active and ooba thought he was CR. I don't even think this is an exaggeration, either - that's all I've seen people say about WLC.

@Andrius,

How confident are you that WLC is CR (and why?) and who would you think is CR if WLC flips town (or mafia)?

tbh, I could agree Apok is probably mafia over CR, but I'd rather see a scum flip or some sort with the first lynch than lynch WLC and hope he flips CR. I strongly feel that Apok is scum of some sort, and any scum flip at this point is better than no scum flip.

Not to mention, if Apok is red and he's lynched, red-scum are going to have to start seriously cult-hunting (including NKs) if they want any chance of winning. Ditto for whoever's doing the day kills.

[zMuffinMan]

I totally missed the part where GI took over modding this.

OK. So. Yellow+Red+Black.

And Apok didn't flip uncultable.

I need to think over some things.

Pretty sure Oversoul is mafia. Probably yellow.

Ghostwriter would be my bet for CR, actually.

More when I have time.

[zMuffinMan]

@Andrius,

Assume mod came in and mod-confirmed WLC is town. Who would you think is CR and why?

[zMuffinMan]

nopoint is not part of the lolmasonry. Only cool kids (and hiplop) are allowed.

nopoint is apparently town because friend says he's town and he won't let me say nopoint is scum and he won't let me ask why nopoint is town so yeah.

[zMuffinMan]

muffin, you don't trust Friend?

I trust friend, in-so-far-as I think he's town. And I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. But since I'm not actually sure what his 'confirmation' of nopoint's alignment is, and nopoint was a scum read of mine up until he became untouchable because of friend, I don't trust nopoint.

It's at least enough that I'm not considering nopoint for a lynch today.

[zMuffinMan]

VOTE: ghostwriter

I'm lazy and I'll have to catch up on what I've missed tomorrow.

In the mean time, thought I'd drop a vote to prod dodge.

[zMuffinMan]

Actually, I read peregrine in ISO. I could also get behind a peregrine lynch, too. Still want to hear from GW, though.

[zMuffinMan]

That wasn't a hammer, that's L-1.

[zMuffinMan]

I don't think it really matters if you claim your target or not. Ideally, if GW isn't CR, we're trying to block the CR. Scum NKs aren't as important to block and at least you can co-ordinate so you don't double up by claiming targets. PS: I also have an ability that has potential to work as a roleblock.

And yeah, he's still at L-1. Andrius was already on the GW wagon when it was L-2 and vezok is the only one that's voted since then.

unvote

Don't want the hammer yet. I still want to catch up and read a few things before this goes into night. Also chance to possibly co-ordinate is always good.

pedit: as above

[zMuffinMan]

So, the more roleblocking going on, the better, right? Toast claimed Jailer, Andrius and tans implied they have a roleblocking ability, as did I. That's 4 roleblocks. Unless CR is action-immune, or at least one of us four is lying/gambiting/whatever, I don't see how co-ordinating these actions is a bad thing.

[zMuffinMan]

vezok and nopoint are not white lanterns.

[zMuffinMan]

prod dodge

[zMuffinMan]

You've... got your eye on me, Andrius?

Well, shit. I better be careful. The guy who thinks GW is mafia, not CR, and is telling us we should go after the CR, while keeping his vote on GW, has his eye on me.

I have no idea why I have a town read on you.

[zMuffinMan]

Another thing concerning me here is the lack of people noticing PeregrineV AT ALL, and the way the GW wagon has just.... stopped, so that people can have round about arguments that appear to be leading nowhere. That sort of behavior is what I would expect of a scum or cult wagon when an important power-role is close to being lynched and the player is nowhere in sight/playing badly, a lot of empty rhetoric to derail the wagon at its zenith.

Oh, I've noticed Peregrine, in-so-far-as you can can notice someone who isn't posting anything.

But I am really sure GW is not town. Whether or not he's CR, mafia or something else, I'm not even considering the possibility that he's going to flip town.

My only problem here is assessing how likely it is that he's actually the CR. And I would really like a CR lynch today.

ftr, these are the people that I'm considering as most likely CRs (and I'd be happy with most of their lynches, some more than others):

- GhostWriter
- PeregrineV
- Oversoul
- Mr. Subliminal
- Kast
ftr, these are the people that I'm considering as most likely CRs (and I'd be happy with most of their lynches, some more than others):

- GhostWriter
- PeregrineV
- Oversoul
- Mr. Subliminal
- Kast

And that's somewhat reflective of the order of my preference for their lynches.

I also feel really uneasy about you, CJ (mostly because I'm starting to read your opposition to the GW wagon as disingenuous - I haven't actually seen you give any sort of valid reason for opposing it), npiau (who's untouchable today due to friend's protection, which he will be explaining when it eventually comes time to massclaim), Blackberry (who keeps going on and on about how he can't be scum because scum wouldn't do what he's doing... AH DURRRRRRRRRRRRR) and WLC (just because he's being generally useless, and I'm starting to questions the town read I had on him).

I want GW to claim and actually post some reads of some sort. Or do anything, really. Just... anything.

[zMuffinMan]

And I also think you're wrong about WHY this wagon stalled, if it wasn't already a given. He's scum.

[zMuffinMan]

5 days. chill.

[zMuffinMan]

I am temporarily replacing Blackberry while he replaces GhostWriter:

BLACKBERRY

"Hi guys, I'm not voting anyone, I'm not trying to find the CR, I have no real suspicions, but at least I can make useless filler posts... Vig me please!"

....

HMMMMMM, thoughts?

[zMuffinMan]

Was about to post that. Why steal my thunder?

[zMuffinMan]

This makes me think if GW comes up MAFIA-related that BOTH of you are also mafia too.

You might be right. But here's the thing. If I'm bussing the fuck out of Toog, Apok AND GW, you should probably keep me around so I get a chance to bus the rest of my team, right?

[zMuffinMan]

Not seeing GW as cult recruiter

So. Convince people you're right about Blackberry, then. Bit late but whatever.

is the best way to add to the conversation by throwing out random accusations

Yeah. Try it.

I find it very intersting that I said this earlier

I have a confession to make. I don't read your posts if I can help it. The reason I responded to you in my last post is because of subliminal's #1616 which made me go back and check who said it. If not for that, I would have completely skipped your post, along with Oversoul's wall and npiau's wall on the previous page.

IF THEY WERE THE SAME THING, IT'D BE THE SAME EXACT WORD IN BOTH ROLE PMS FOR ROLE CONSISTENCY.

Not necessarily. Like, I'm "unrecruitable", but it could just be mod-wifom. And considering a lot of the responses I've gotten from the mod about this game, I'd say there's a very good possibility that's actually the case. Mod's a bastard.

I strongly suggest you let me follow BB tonight

wat

[zMuffinMan]

Why waste a track/block on you when you should be vigged?

[zMuffinMan]

I think you just want to direct a vig away from mafia, IMO.

Nothing gets past you. Your powers of deduction are amazing.

Not only did you figure out Friend was recruited by npiau or hiplop, you also figured out I'm mafia with Toast and the now-deceased GhostWriter, Toog and Apok. The only thing left is for you to figure out the SK. Is it nikanor? It must be nikanor. No other explanation makes sense. He shot himself D1 for the WIFOM aspect.

[zMuffinMan]

TOAST WE NEED TO KILL HIM, HE KNOWS TOO MUCH

[zMuffinMan]

@bb,

That's great.

@vig,

Kill him.

[zMuffinMan]

Wow. I just ISOd Blackberry. My eyes are bleeding.

Also, what is this?

[zMuffinMan]

I hate you.

[zMuffinMan]

Well, if npiau wasn't recruited last night, WLC is pretty much 100% not CR, unless that was some major bussing going on. Chances are I'd say he's actually town (doubt GW would try to get a buddy lynched when they need to target CR, and I doubt CR would have recruited him). As far as I'm concerned, unless anyone can tell me why I'm wrong about this, we're not lynching WLC today.

pedit: I guess that means he was recruited before N2. So yeah.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm thinking... CR pool:

Kast
CJ
Blackberry

Somewhere in that mix.

[zMuffinMan]

Actually. Not blackberry, either.

CJ is a good shot at CR, I think. Need to do some reading. brbrb

[zMuffinMan]

But I highly doubt TOWN has 4 variations of role-blocking powers.

I also have an ability that works similar to a roleblock. I used it on subliminal last night. Point is, if everyone is telling the truth, I'd be the 5th variation.

*Note that BB's logic for excluding vezok from cult is wrong. Vezok is not cult because OS confirmed the delay, and they can't both be cult. Not because OS is mafia, but because objectively, they cannot be coordinating as cult since we know nopoint was cult.

You're making this assumption based on there being a single cult member to begin with (CR) and that CR only being able to recruit once a night?

Given the massssssssssssssssss power roles in this game (flipped and claimed) and the double day aspect of this game, my guess is you're wrong in this assumption.

I'd say it's likely CR has something special like double recruits, or a backup recruiter/multiple starting members like some other players have suggested, or something else entirely (and I'm also toying with the idea that CR is action-immune in some way, but that just seems really overpowered and unbalanced, so maybe not). It's not out of the realms of possibility that vezok is cult with oversoul.

- Kast tracked N1

wat

I missed this. Where and what and who and etc?

inhim is least likely CR due to miller claim.

He probably isn't CR, but discounting him because he claimed miller is meh.

- Blackberry
- WeyounsLastClone

Ruling these two out for the moment due to npiau's play yesterday. Specifically the fact that he spent a lot of the day gunning for WLC's lynch, and the things he was saying about BB. None of that looked like cult+CR interactions to me.

I'm also not buying the NOPOINt WAS ALL FOR LYNCHING WLC argument at all. Why? well, it makes sense for cult to protect their leader, but a cult esentially acts as a growing scum team. If an entire scum team is buddying with their godfather, and the godfather gets lynched, I'd say they'd lose pretty fast. Exact same thing could happen to a cult.

Nah, it's not that he couldn't have been bussing, it's that what he did looked in no way like distancing from the CR. It looked like he genuinely was pushing for WLC's lynch. It didn't look like any sort of distancing between a cult member and a CR.

WLC's play has been very...middle ground and hidden.

pretty sure this is more to do with his playstyle than his alignment

Nopoint could have easily been distancing, as he never expressed any suspicion of WLC day 1.

yeh, except it was very likely WLC could have been lynched and "distancing" doesn't work when you can't back down from it.

more later

[zMuffinMan]

Are we MCing our targets? Because I targeted Kast and tans last night.

lolololol

Kast and tans trollllled

[zMuffinMan]

I want to lynch WLC after reading Friend. He seems very serious with his accusations. And seeing he flipped Watcher, I doubt he saw anything in particular but maybe he did and that is why he wanted to lynch WLC.

I'd wager that daytalk with npiau played a strong part in this.

If anything, more evidence to suggest that WLC probably isn't CR unless npiau was maaaaaaaaaaaaaaajorly bussing.

[zMuffinMan]

Dunno, was an assumption based on a few things (they weren't masons, they were lovers <- more limited, and double day mechanic, etc)

[zMuffinMan]

Hey, if we get CR with the first lynch, can we PL vezok?

[zMuffinMan]

VOTE: Candle Jack

[zMuffinMan]

Who's against a mass claim and why?

[zMuffinMan]

PS:

Anyway, I have a feeling that everyone who was targetted tonight has lost their powers, as at the start of the day I got a pm with the same information tans had. Something's fishy at the least. After I get answer from tans on questions above, I'll claim if that's what people really want.

This is bullshit.

Either Kast is lying, or people who lost their powers performed no actions that night, which means tans did not end up targeting you (or he's lying about having lost his powers), so you couldn't have lost your powers from someone targeting you, and it doesn't explain why others who were targeted by someone didn't get this mysterious PM that you supposedly got.

Did you lose your powers permanently?

[zMuffinMan]

Also when was this PM sent? Kast claims he got it "last night", you're claiming you got it today.

[zMuffinMan]

That ooba lynch. Was so bad. It should never have happened.

I'm currently working on the assumption that almost half the remaining player list is anti-town.

I'm all paranoid and shit.

It's me against the world.

Zombie apocalypse style.

[zMuffinMan]

OK. I'm trying to piece some things together here.

I sincerely doubt that the cult group is a single CR and a single backup recruiter who recruit once a night. It's a virtual impossibility, given the fact that we have a cult cop dead and a claimed "cult doc" still alive, unless that cult doc is lying. The cult group would be farrrrrrrrrr too underpowered if that's the case, unless the CR is completely action immune or something like that.

Also, what have we got now? A cult doc (now vanilla), a regular doc (now something else), a copycat (now vanilla), a tracker (now vanilla), a JK, a blocker of sort in Andrius, a delayer, 3 claimed WLs, and unaccounted for are a day killer and probably a vig and another redirector and something which steals 4 powers in a single night and gives one player a new power?

This isn't making sense.

[zMuffinMan]

Oh, and a mafia-miller.

PARANOIA KICKING IN.

SUBLIMINAL, ARE YOU AN ACTION IMMUNE DAY KILLING SERIAL KILLER?

[zMuffinMan]

Everyone is a PR, there are no VTs.

And?

How does this relate to anything I said?

[zMuffinMan]

Do you think the cult group consists of a CR+backup with a single recruit per night against a cult cop and a cult doc?

[zMuffinMan]

Now, why do you think there's a bus driver?

Correction:

@BB,

Why do you think there is

ANOTHER

bus driver?

LLD flipped redirector.

IF there is another redirector, it's not a town redirector.

[zMuffinMan]

You're freaking out about the number of PR claims.

No, I'm not. It's nothing to do with the number of claimed PRs.

Look, two kills a night + a day killer + a cult cop + a cult doc.

If this is as simple as 2 members of a cult team (CR+backup) with a single recruit per night, against an unknown number of unrecruitable/uncultable players, then I will be surprised.

I have no issue with the number of claimed PRs in and of itself. There's just some things that aren't making sense with the claims.

The fact there's an unclaimed day killer + an unclaimed vig (working on the assumption of a hero vig N1 + pere vig N2) + mysterious power stealing + mechanic that allows WL rings to come into play + whatever else is making shit weird.

Somehow, somehow, we manage to do this task without freaking out about unknowns.

I do what I want. You're not my mother. You can't tell me what to do.

[zMuffinMan]

wait...

CJ claims he protected Andrius N1 and NPIAU N2?

ARIHDBKHFDF<HJB

[zMuffinMan]

... Subliminal2 already answered it, but yeah, my reaction was to his reasons for protecting Andrius and npiau, not the fact that npiau died. I looked over him him in ISO, I can maaaaaaaaaybe understand the Andrius protect N1 but NPIAU N2? I want explanations for these choices.

PS: I'm unrecruitable. I already claimed it somewhere, but yeah. I actually thought all WLs were unrecruitable, but apparently not.

PPS: I did not use my roleblocking ability on anyone N1. I'll say what I did do when it comes time to MC, but my N1 action did not succeed. It should be rather obvious who I targeted though.

[zMuffinMan]

Also. My roleblock isn't a roleblocking ability per se. It's a downgrading ability. For example, if I were to use it on a watcher, they would not be told who targeted a player but what role/s targeted that player. In cases where the action cannot be downgraded, it works as a roleblock. So I'm assuming if I use it on someone who performs a kill or recruit, it will roleblock them (I cannot see a logical downgrade for a kill or recruit).

[zMuffinMan]

A question like what?

[zMuffinMan]

hiplop, purple? Answer "yes", "no" or "I don't know what you're talking about".

[zMuffinMan]

I did ask the mod. He's very unhelpful.

What I said is what I was told.

[zMuffinMan]

@CJ,

Explain your night actions, please.

Also, I don't think you've been playing pro-town at all. Especially after the second part of D2 - your reaction to the GW wagon was bad, and I can see why people think you're mafia (trying to derail the wagon on a buddy). I personally think you didn't know GW was scum and you were trying to be a white knight. And you really haven't done much to find the CR that you're supposedly looking for. Aaaaand the fact that you're claiming you think you've been playing pro-town and can't understand why people suspect you is suspicious in itself - sounds like "damn, I thought I looked town ".

[zMuffinMan]

@WLC, claim your character name and ring colour before you lost your powers.

Point 2: If no one counter-claims CJ, I can not vote him. I can't see there not being a Doctor in the beginning.

I had this thought, too, but then I disregarded it because with the amount of claimed roleblocking and shit, it's entirely possible there was no doctor in this setup.

Point 3: inHimshallibe, I want YOU to elaborate on your miller claim and what you know.

He has elaborated on it, iirc. Something about red lights and whatever... long story short, he's a mafia miller.

Point 5: Someone said all the WL group are 'cleared' which is not the case if you read the fact people just stood up and said 'I claim WL'.

Well, technically we could clear each other by referencing the mod PM we got D1, which we haven't done yet, but I'm really not considering the chance they're lying because it would be stupid to lie about it. Nikanor definitely got the PM, he was the first to mention it after I received it. And given hiplop's play before the PM was sent out, he definitely got it, too. If I need to prove it, I think all I really need to say is "it clarified the gap" and that should be enough for the other two to know I'm not lying.

It would give him too much attention IMO.
He obviously knows, as you pointed out, that its HIS fakeclaim so unless LOLMODS or town being twats that NO ONE should be claiming his person.
So if he CCs and gets idiot town lynched what happens? Either: a) ppl realize twat_townie was asking for it b) he is lynched/shot in counter

Nah,

IF he's scum with a Saint Walker fake-claim, there was never going to be a CC because it's HIS fake-claim.

He didn't have to claim it, he just had to crumb is fake-claim. Which actualy makes perfect sense for him to do if he's scum with that fake-claim.

And he wasn't really bringing much attention to himself, because it was soft crumbing.

I

still

want CJ to explain the reasoning behind their protects.

If WLC actually was an anti-cult doctor, he'd be an ambiguously named Cult Doctor, not an Anti-Cult Doctor, to follow the naming convention seen in FrozenMirror's Cult Cop role.

Shit logic.

It's either his real claim or his fake-claim. Unless... you think he's lying about it altogether?

Not like it matters anymore, Daykill sent in.

Damn, was hoping this was true t_t

I see no reason why he wouldn't be "all over you" for crumbing Walker if that was his fakeclaim. I see no downside for him if you got lynched for cc'ing him and then flipped something OTHER THAN THE ROLE YOU WOULD'VE CLAIMED.

This.


SO MANY NEW POSTS IN THE TIME I WROTE THIS UP

[zMuffinMan]

They did get fake-claims. Full fake-claims, including role. The only thing that was missing was the picture. This has been covered already.

[zMuffinMan]

what do you think of BB's "revelation" that scum have fake-claims from the mod?

[zMuffinMan]

wait, did vezok ever claim what his actual ring colour is? Because he's sure as fuck not white.

[zMuffinMan]

@Anyone who thinks WLC is lying about his claim:

Do you think he is lying and not using a mod-provided fake-claim?

If not, what part of his claim do you not believe?

Surely if he's scum of some sort with a Mera fake-claim, he's giving the real details of his fake-claim. The only plausible explanation for you thinking his claim is "bullshit" is if you think he's lying altogether.

Anyway, these are the people I'm considering could be CR:

- CJ
- WLC
- Blackberry
- Subliminal
- ToastyToast

Ruling others out for various reasons:

- Kast (first to claim "vanillarised" last night, tracker claim, etc)
- Andrius (tans shenanigans)
- tans (andrius shenanigans)
- IHSIB (claimed mafia miller = if he's CR, he's got to hope against all odds a cult cop doesn't get a "cult" result on him or he'd have some splainin to do)
- OS (too many claimed blocks on him, and just don't see him as CR)
- hiplop (lolWL)
- Nikanor (lolWL)
- Vezok (OS)***

I don't like CJ coming out with a SaintWalker claim and then going back into hiding. Still want explanations for his protects. I also want to know as much detail as he can give me about his role without outing what his current ability is. And participation in the game would be cool, too, if that's not too much to ask.

WLC I'm not reading as CR at this point. I don't think he's scum either.

Blackberry I'm not seeing as CR at this point, either. A couple things he's said here and there and also npiau's interaction with him yesterday didn't read like cult-cult interaction to me.

Subliminal is being ignored because he was double-blocked last night and.... er.... ummmmmm... Can't figure out why people are ruling him out as CR. Currently don't think he's the most likely CR candidate, though.

Toast is an interesting case. Two possible interpretations for the way he reacted to Nikanor D2:
1) Genuine
2) He's scum of some sort (not SK) and knew Nikanor couldn't have got a "SK" result on him so overreacted with a fake-claim.
Second becomes increasingly more likely with every post from Toast because I don't see a genuine desire to find CR in his play, and he's sort of just coasting by at the moment.

*** Actually, vezok can't be ruled out as a potential CR. But it would mean Oversoul being recruited N1, and, well... I don't think vezok could pull off this sort of shit as CR in this game.

[zMuffinMan]

You know what I think is WEIRD?

Someone who claims to have a 1-shot ability that could supposedly "clear" CJ from being CR when a tracking ability does nothing of the sort (unless he visits no one).

So you think his claim is fake. Do you think he's more likely CR or mafia?

Who's CR if it's not WLC, and why?

[zMuffinMan]

subliminal, you're wrong. GhostWriter clearly came in to the thread before he died and put his vote on WLC, claiming that WLC was the most likely CR.

[zMuffinMan]

Yeah, pretty sure mod is more likely to give CR a fake-claim like (just for example's sake) Saint Walker, Doctor, than an anti-cult doc. You are right, BB.

[zMuffinMan]

This game needs to get to 100 pages before the flip occurs. Make it more daunting for IHSIB's replacement.

[zMuffinMan]

sleezykrew?

[zMuffinMan]

town flip

[zMuffinMan]

I should have made a deal.

[zMuffinMan]

Pick one:

- CJ
- Subliminal
- ToastyToast

VOTE: CandleJack

[zMuffinMan]

subliminal, make this clear:

1) Are you or are you not justice league?
2) You're claiming doc, right?
3) Did you get the PM D1? If so, without breaking any rules, what was the PM about?
4) Do you have any passive abilities?

[zMuffinMan]

He's not the CR, CJ.

Pretty sure I know who he is without him claiming, and he isn't the CR.

Hint: I think he is Y.

[zMuffinMan]

er.... X rather

[zMuffinMan]

friend flipped 1-shot watcher (I think Kast is referring to this)

[zMuffinMan]

As it is, we have a good amount of investigative roles.

I think we should just properly mass claim.

Pick an order for claiming, stick to it:

Claim should include

name, role, colour/ring, any changes to your colour/ring/role that have occurred since the beginning of the game, your night actions

So far I think toast, CJ, tans, BB have all full-claimed and there's been partial claims from everyone else.

----

@BB

You're an idiot. Considering D2 you said you want to be recruited (or something like that), why the fuck would anyone believe you tomorrow if you say "nah Toast is conf not CR I was jailed"?

[zMuffinMan]

And you know this because you have a theory about Toast culting OS last night.

Wow.

[zMuffinMan]

No, BB.

Theoretically, if you're already recruited, that would be an amazing plan for you, because it would directly implicate Toast as CR upon your death.

I need to read through some things.

Also skipped over the posts magua is talking about so need to go take a look at those.

[zMuffinMan]

Oh, right.

I totally forgot that part of the PM.

That's actually a good crumb.

[zMuffinMan]

That was @ subliminal btw.

[zMuffinMan]

You think I'm recruited right this moment?

Considering you keep calling me an idiot, why would someone recruit an idiot? Wouldn't CR be fearful I'd f#ck everything up and not want to recruit me?

It's more me considering all options than thinking you're currently recruited.

[zMuffinMan]

Wait, why did CJ go through all the trouble of telling us that nopoint looked town D1 and then was "a lot less cohesive" D2 when he protected nopoint on N2?

[zMuffinMan]

also, hiplop, if you're trying to find the crumb, look for something you were asked to note, and then read subliminal's posts again.

[zMuffinMan]

BB,

There are a couple reasons that I think none of the WLs are lying about their claim.

I'll make it clear, I haven't once said that any of the WLs are "confirmed town" (specifically said this in #1015 and #1052), but I am ruling them out based on play so far. hiplop's early play (specifically his vezok suspicion) and nikanor's early play (in regards to the nature of his role), all prior to the mod PM shenanigans, make me believe they actually are WLs. I'm pretty much ruling them out for CR because what they were saying makes no sense as CR-with-WL-fake-claim. As for whether or not I believe subliminal's claim, I'd say it doesn't matter right now. He was double-blocked by Andrius and I last night, and nopoint-cultrecruit is dead, so if he is the CR, he's not really a threat (unless he's completely action immune or something).

Anyway, that aside, I do not believe scum of any sort (inc. CR) have a fake WL claim. First, we know that red/yellow scum team does not have WL fake-claims, because their "leader" claimed a green lantern fake-claim (which makes me an immmmmmmensely stupid cop investigation). Second, the WL claims are elaborate in a way that suggests to me that they can't be used as fake-claims, because it would give scum too much information about the white lantern corps (I'm talking specifically about the ring mechanic here). Third, apart from maybe Subliminal (and even then, it was just PoE), I don't think any of them could be CR based on play so far.

Who did Muffin target N1?

I'll get to this when it comes time for me to properly claim my role, but my action did not succeed N1, so it's not important right now.

BTW. If CR DID recruit nopoint N1, wouldn't the CR know the WL PM by now? O_o

Probably, but it wouldn't explain crumbing it D1.

[zMuffinMan]

No, BB. I'll make it even more clear why I don't think Nikanor can be CR when mass claiming is over, but he claimed non-lantern early and I really, really, really can't see CR with a WL fake-claim doing that.

[zMuffinMan]

We should continue with mass claiming and not get bogged down discussing possibilities.

This order:

tans
Kast

^ full claims from the vanillarised players first.

vezok
Oversoul
Andrius

^ full claims from the non-WLs next

subliminal
me
hiplop
nikanor

^ full claims from WLs last.

I think everyone else has claimed (bar IHSIB, who is obviously not going to be around for a while, but has claimed mafia miller and has name claimed, so we'll just assume that was a full claim).

Discussion can continue afterwards.

[zMuffinMan]

Why are we mass claiming? The last time town mass claimed, in Succession Mafia 2, led directly to a cult victory.

Wow.

You are so very, very helpful.

Given your list of possible CRs consists of 3/5 people who haven't full-claimed (hiplop, subliminal, me), and a majority of the rest of the game have already full-claimed or mostly claimed their roles, what are you suggesting we do?

I think you're suggesting that we lynch white lanterns + miller one by one? Because that makes a fuckton of sense and is a very pro-town idea. No, really... ... ...

But since most of your suspects have not claimed, and pretty much all of your non-suspects have already full-claimed or mostly claimed, why are you against a mass claim?

Also, a lot of your recent posts make absolutely no sense for other reasons.

Well, I consider nopoint town based on two things, friends complete insistence on him being town, and how I thought his play was at the time (pretty town). Looking back on it in hindsight, there are differences that can be spotted when actually looking for them carefully.

So when you protected him (N2), why did you not realise that his D2 play was not actually "pretty town" (other than his flip, nothing has changed since then)? And if you thought he was town based on friend's insistence that he was town, then why did you not protect, oh i dunno.... FRIEND instead?

meh, I don't think you can just wave your hands and go "these players are not cult recruiter" based on a claim especially when considering it is pretty plausible the cult recruiter is either hiplop, sub, toasty, inhim or zmuffin.

So, tell me, why are you ruling out the people you're ruling out, if not based mostly on their claims?

inHim name-claimed? Where is this?

Somewhere in his ISO, I'd assume. It's not particularly long, surely you can take the time to check. I'll help you out, though...

Guy Gardner.

I disagree, vanilla should go last. Obviously CR can't lose their powers, so why claim first?

Because, 1) They've already claimed their roles, basically.... and 2) I don't necessarily believe both of them are VTs along with CJ having a new ring....

Popcorn is probably easier and saves a whole lot of fuss, whatever.

No. Our flavor mentions our ring initially, as the power of hope working to enhance the power of the other corps, giving them an 'unbreakable shield'. Our ring has since changed color, with the ability to 'search peoples hearts'.

So yeah, we're now part of the orange lantern corps.

So your ability description includes flavour?

I think the CULT RECRUITER sent it to you guys to f#ck with all of you and confirm himself/herself as WL.

Not to mention, Nikanor at first pretends not to be WL, then he claims WL.

[/quote="BB"]Not to mention, why would the mod send a message in the middle of the day?[/quote]

If we continue with the mass claim, I'll include what the PM was about when I get around to claiming.

In this post Mr. S you make it sound like you didn't get the PM. Is this correct?

You're also incorrect about this.

If every person who got a PM had already hinted/claimed White Lantern, yet not all the White Lanterns got the PM, this would tell me it was sent by someone (the CR) to f#ck with people and clear themselves *eyes Nikanor*.

No.

[zMuffinMan]

note: the second quote makes a lot of sense when you realise that not all white lanterns are part of the justice league. Also, I

think

vezok claimed justice league, but he is certainly not a white lantern.

[zMuffinMan]

Actually, I really need to look at vezok properly.

Noting this for now.

[zMuffinMan]

I could just claim now and popcorn to someone if that's easiest. Because my claim is probably the most interesting, given what's already been claimed. And it would also help in clarifying some stuff.

[zMuffinMan]

This game would be so much better if I wasn't asleep when you were all posting, and vice versa.

[zMuffinMan]

claim kdub.

[zMuffinMan]

That's because you're clueless or scum. Soooooooo

[zMuffinMan]

So your plan is:

lynch WL#1 - Oh shit, he flipped WL.

OK,

lynch WL#2 - Oh shit, he flipped WL.

OK, moving on..

lynch miller - Oh shit, he's actually a miller.

Well, I'm completely wrong, but believe me, guys. I'm town. I swear it.

[zMuffinMan]

If I thought you were mafia, I'd call you mafia. I have been, since the beginning of the game, referring to anything anti-town as scum, and referring to the red-yellow faction specifically as mafia.

[zMuffinMan]

I think if the CR does have a WL fake-claim (and I seriously doubt he does), it's not hiplop and it's not Nikanor.

[zMuffinMan]

Why do you doubt that?

Because in order for the CR to have a WL fake claim, the mod would have had to have provided the CR with information that he really shouldn't have in a balanced game. As in, he would have had to have told the CR that the white lantern rings weren't in play at the beginning of the game, that WLs get new powers when the WL rings come into play, etc etc. And the WL roles are elaborate enough that I seriously doubt they could be given as fake claims. Also, Red-Yellow scum don't have WL fake-claims. Also mod PM.

Is there any reason you think hiplop is not cult recruiter besides "fakeclaim WL"?

No, prior experience with hiplop and the fact his WL claim matches up with his early play and some of the things he said early game are the reason I think he's actually a WL. 99.999% sure hiplop is not CR.

And which white lantern, then, do you think it is?

I'm not actually sure what the point of this question is, because you already know my answer. If any of the WLs are lying, it would more than likely be Subliminal. I currently don't think he's lying, but he's the most likely if any of us are lying.

Anyway, I'm still not seeing why you are against a mass claim. You are keeping track of who has and hasn't claimed, right? And how this relates to your list of suspects, right?

[zMuffinMan]

Because the currently claimed roles don't make a whole lot of sense.

We have:

Dead -
Cult Cop
Cult Doc
1-shot Governor
Redirector
Drill Sergeant
1-shot Watcher (Lover-Mason)
1-shot BP (Lover-Mason)

And alive:

Tracker (now vanilla)
1-shot Watcher

or

Tracker
Roleblocker
JailKeeper
Power Stealer (now vanilla)
Doctor (now rolecop)
Delayer
Mafia Cop
Mafia Miller
+ 4 unclaimed WLs (although Nikanor has hinted at conditional bulletproof and I've claimed a downgrading ability)

Unaccounted for:
Multiple NKs, Day kill+attempt, Vanillariser(?), Ring changer(?)

Also, I know my role is going to throw a wrench in the works when it comes to figuring out this game, and it wouldn't surprise me if other WLs are similar in this regard. Town has far too much investigative/roleblocking/protective power given the current claims.

I think piecing claims together and discussing this will go a long way to figuring out who's actually lying about their roles.

What do you actually have against mass claiming, apart from referencing another game where mass claiming supposedly lost the game. Think about it very carefully. Other than Nikanor, all of the people who have yet to claim are currently in your suspect list. In other words, you think the CR is most likely among the people who haven't claimed, and you are against a mass claim because you are worried that the CR (who you think is hiding amongst the people who haven't claimed) is going to figure out the game or something if a mass claim occurs? How does this make sense?

[zMuffinMan]

Plus, what's funny is. If the claimed JK and the claimed Delayer are both town, and worked in tandem, they could permanent roleblock 2 different players for the entire game.

[zMuffinMan]

You delay X N1. He jails X N2 while you delay Y. He jails Y N3 while you delay X. And the cycle goes on.

So if you were both telling the truth about your roles, you could theoretically keep Oversoul and Kast permanently roleblocked for the rest of the game.

[zMuffinMan]

ftr, I have a limitation on my role that means I cannot use my downgrading ability on consecutive nights.

@Oversoul,

If you don't want to play, I'm going to put it bluntly: fuck off. Stop trying to get yourself mod-killed.

Anyway, I was thinking about this game, and something occurred to me, but I want to sleep on it before I go into any detail about it.

The long and short of it is I don't see CJ flipping anything other than CR at the moment.

[zMuffinMan]

Anyway. I had something I wanted to say in this game but I forgot. Getting food, hopefully I remember when I'm back.

Barring really, really bastard cult mechanics in this game, I don't see anyone but CJ flipping CR at this point.

[zMuffinMan]

especially since you called me a recruit

No, I didn't.

I'm not sure how you don't see anyone "but CJ" flipping CR when I've laid out three people who have a extremely high chance of flipping CR and you've brushed it under the carpet.

Because your #1 suspect is someone I can't see flipping CR based on his play in this game so far. Yeah, he's played a weak town game, but his weak play in recent game days doesn't really matter to me.
Your #2 suspect is a claimed miller (who's retracted his original claim and is now claiming PGO 1-shot Vig) which makes him very, very unlikely to be CR (but even if he were just a mafia-miller, he'd still be really, really unlikely)
And your #3 suspect I could potentially see as CR, but I'm less inclined to believe the CR has a WL fake-claim than I am to believe that you're CR.

If you're asking whether I think there's a higher chance that any of them are CR, no.

Here's what I think. You're the CR and you gave us your recruits. N1 you recruited NPIAU, N2 you recruited Andrius. I think this for a couple reasons, but it's mostly because I think you slipped in explaining your read on NPIAU, because you forgot you claimed to have protected him N2 - you went on and on about how he looked really town D1 but that changed D2... Yet you still supposedly protected him N2. I asked about this in #2376 (under the second quote) and never got a proper explanation.

I also don't believe there's a doctor-turned-rolecop in this game. I think it's a convenient claim that doesn't fit with the other roles in this game. For example, I see no reason for the mod to include a town-aligned rolecop when there's already a town-aligned mafia cop and a town-aligned cult cop in this game. I also see no need for a doctor, when there are several roleblock-esque abilites in this game, a PGO (who is most likely town because I don't believe scum was given 2 PGOs), a redirector, and several investigative PRs (not including any PRs that have yet to claim).

Also, mass claiming is stupid because only one player in the game is the CR, so it still makes no sense to out every power role when that doesn't catch the CR

Yeah but 3/4 of the players who have yet to claim are your potential CR candidates. So, in your mind, a proper mass claim should be full of win.

[zMuffinMan]

Make note that his ring turned Orange the SAME NIGHT that Tans lost his Orange Ring powers, which are very similar (Role Cop = Role Thief, just more powreful o.O).

How is a role cop at all similar to a role thief?

As far as I can tell, tans not only roleblocks the person he targets (I think?) but copies their power for his own use the next night.

A rolecop simply learns someone's role.

Still, if anything, this should point more towards the fact that there shouldn't even be a rolecop in town's arsenal, because tans's ability is sort of like an investigative ability, too.

BTW, who are you suggesting we lynch, BB? Keeping in mind we're not lynching Oversoul under any circumstances today, no matter how badly you want to prove yourself wrong about your ring-giving theory.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm pretty sure at the end of yesterday you had a pretty solid town read on him as well, so you're argument is pretty invalid.

Incorrect. Read every post I mention NPIAU. #1244 and #1577, for example. He was untouchable because Friend was vouching for him, so it was fruitless to go after him.

I'm also not sure how you can claim that a particular role 'shouldn't be in town's arsenal', considering I have the role and we don't know what other roles mafia have and the cult have. We don't know the whole setup, and we're definitely not mass claiming so you can try to 'figure it out'. You seem to be finding fault over multiple investigative abilities, but not over any other, like roleblocking, side of things.

Oh, I don't for one second believe that

all

the claimed roleblockers are town, but I do believe they have/had the abilities they're claiming and I do believe that most of them are town. I also believe they aren't CR and therefore aren't worth pursuing today.

Most, if not all, of your argument seems to stem from the fact you can't picture a doctor or a rolecop in this insane setup so far, which is complete crap. Rolecop is actually very useful in this game because it can confirm town players (i.e. with an unrecruitable in their role name, and ferret out fakeclaims (considering there is probably six mafia and a cult, it is very useful).)

Actually, rolecop is not as useful as you're making it out to be. You yourself have acknowledged that scum are most likely telling the truth about their roles. Unless your claimed rolecop ability gives alignment as well as role, the only thing it'd be useful for is finding the CR (or, perhaps, to verify that someone else isn't the CR).

It's not so much that I can't picture one in this setup, but that I don't believe there is one in this setup.

Also, most of my argument stems from PoE. Although, as I mentoned in #1577, I felt that your objections to the GhostWriter wagon were disingenuous and I don't feel you've been playing as pro-town as you (and Andrius, your white knight) are suggesting.

And doctor stops the mafia/anti-town kills while cult doc stops the cult recruits and roleblockers hit both. So far, we've had a cult doc, a cult cop, almost 100% a cop (BB) flip town, and you doubt a doctor fits in there as well? Please.

Actually, this is the very reason I think doctor is a fake-claim. It fits too perfectly and it's simply not a necessary role in this setup.

How many setups have you designed and reviewed to give yourself such ethos on the subject of setup speculation?

None. Is this a problem?

[zMuffinMan]

Oh, and my major issue with believing that you actually protected NPIAU last night is that I don't see any reason scum would have killed him, over say, anyone else..... Like, why not protect Friend, who was the one vouching for NPIAU?

[zMuffinMan]

btw subliminal... purple?

[zMuffinMan]

We're assuming you're claiming non-WL, which is weird because Jade is one of the 12.

Well, OS claimed Aquaman and he isn't a WL from what he's claimed. Like with WLC, I think it's best not to look too much at flavour.

OS's claimed results do not match what mod told us we would get if blocked (or what we did get N2 for that matter).

OS's claimed result (that his action "did not succeed") is exactly what I got N1, although the mod refuses to elaborate on what exactly "not succeeding" means.

[zMuffinMan]

@CJ,

You're overestimating how useful a rolecop ability is in this game, but that just makes me think it's a fake-claim to buy you time.

Your opposition to the GW wagon was really, really weak. Summed up, you basically said you think it looks like he's a town PR and the wagon was scum-infested, but your attempts to derail it (if you really believed it) were almost non-existent, except for saying that Peregrine was a good lynch. You basically

did

skate through the day...

As for why the rest of your play hasn't been pro-town, that would be because... it simply hasn't been? For example, you started D1 attacking Ooba because he was apparently cult hunting and this is what mafia do... Which I pointed out is a contradiction in itself, because mafia-hunting is exactly what cult would do, by your own logic... Apok is about the only wagon you've been on for a decent reason.

btw, there's absolutely no way I'm lynching hiplop today, even if he is a bag full of derp. The closest I'd come to thinking about lynching a claimed WL is subliminal, and even then, I'm hesitant because I'm really not seeing him as CR and, if he really is CR, there's virtually no chance he recruited last night.

Pretty much everyone else is eliminated because of N1 actions. BB isn't, but he has a verifiable claim and I'm ruling him out for other reasons as well (not reading him as CR, interactions with npiau didn't read like cult-cult interactions). hiplop and subliminal technically aren't but again, not reading them as CR.

You are by far the most viable choice for the lynch today.

[zMuffinMan]

@Andrius,

White Lanterns:

muffin
hiplop
Nikanor
Subliminal

Orange:

tanstalas
Andrius
ToastyToast

Green:

Kast
Blackberry
Kdub

Unknown:

vezok (justice league? not a WL) <- I can 100% say that vezok is not a white lantern.
Oversoul (Aquaman but not a WL)

Blue:

Ludi (now orange?)

-------------------------------

Why Subliminal over CJ? You know Subliminal could not have recruited last night if he is CR. Why go after him over CJ?

[zMuffinMan]

If one is the CR we have no one to blame but them for the misinformation.

On the contrary, I've never pretended that I know all of the other claimed WLs are confirmed non-CR. Originally I was under the assumption that all WLs are unrecruitable (on account of my own role) and not CR (on account of how unlikely it is that CR has a WL fake-claim and mafia do not have the same fake-claims and how elaborate WL roles are and the play of the people who have claimed WL). I do, however, strongly believe that both hiplop and nikanor are white lanterns and at least began this game as town. I don't have the same strong feelings towards subliminal, but he does have a WL role PM, whatever that means as far as the game goes.

So you're saying that we should be lynching the person who has more recruits under his belt, yes?

Yes. Unless you have a reason to suspect one over the other, I see no reason to go after the lesser threat.

----

Put it this way. If CJ is not CR, there are some lies that need to be unearthed tomorrow.

[zMuffinMan]

@Andrius,

I've been saying it since the beginning of the game, but you've refused to listen, just like you've refused to listen to me tell you that vezok is not a white lantern for the last 100 pages. It's not news and it's not my fault that you haven't been reading.

[zMuffinMan]

As far as the information I have goes, no.

There's a lot to suggest that they aren't CR, but confirmed? No.

[zMuffinMan]

Well, Toasty claims to have jailed Nikanor N1, so assuming NPIAU was a N1 recruit, Nikanor can't be CR.

I'm not actually a "downgrader", downgrading is just one of my abilities. And I'm unconfirmed.

[zMuffinMan]

Track me. There's something I want to confirm.

[zMuffinMan]

Town needs a Doctor

Why?

and I don't think dana would be all trolololol no Blue Lantern we need one of each.

Why?

hiplop is probably mafia

No.

[zMuffinMan]

Andrius, you're claiming that town needs a protective role just because.....

But it doesn't.

With at least 2 of the scum (and probably more) being cultable, and mass investigative/roleblocking PRs, I don't see why this setup needs a doctor. Whether or not there

is

one is a different matter, but there doesn't

need

to be one.

Saint Walker as Doc fits.
And works.

And no one CC'd the Doc.

No shit... because if his FAKE-CLAIM is SAINT WALKER, DOCTOR, of course it fits and of course no one can counter-claim it.

Willing to bet there's at least one lantern from each color here.
INDIGO - MAGNAGM
PURPLE - TOAST [?]
BLUE - CJ [?]
SO YEAH

Where did Oversoul claim purple? And, this still doesn't explain anything. You're guessing... based on nothing but mod-WIFOM... and you're complaining about the fact that this game could be lost because of assumptions...

Ludi, I believe your play's been steadily protown

Like.....

When......?

You mean when he was calling Ooba mafia for cult hunting? Or when he was trying to discredit the GW wagon because GW was obviously a town PR? Or are you talking about something else here?

[zMuffinMan]

Also, I'm glad its finally come out that hiplop is not confirmed not cult recruiter, (after dancing around this all game), and we can finally get a wagon going here.

It's been established for a long, long time that this is not the case. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been arguing with you for pages about it.

The thing is right now I'm sure there is up to three mafia running around, and they don't particularly care who they lynch. Hence, my wagon growing large. The cult actively doesn't want CR getting lynch, but aside from that, don't care. Hence why hiplop is very hard to lynch.

This is the same terrible speculation you gave when GW was on the verge of being lynched. You have no idea what you're talking about.

b. My play has been anti-town

Oh, I don't think you've been playing in an "anti-town" way. I just don't think you've been playing in a pro-town way. It's not black and white, one or the other.

c. Why hiplop is not CR

. . . . . . .

[zMuffinMan]

Your ooba point could apply to several people, and it is quite a valid point. Mafia want to cult hunt because they know the mafia.

Look, the reason your argument is invalid is because:

a) The same logic could be applied in saying that cult are more likely to hunt mafia, and therefore you hunting mafia is a sign that you're cult.
b) Town also want to hunt the CR. Mostly because getting rid of the cult means you can focus purely on hunting mafia.
c) You were the one that was pushing Ooba early for cult-hunting, nobody else (that I can recall) was doing this (at least not until you brought it up).

I also called out Apok, who was mafia

Congrats.

and GW did not flip a town power role, like you are say, but mafia.

So?

To determine who is town, you look at their pushes, their intent, if they believe in their own cases, and thats what I've been doing.

That's... not how you find town in a game with more than one scum faction.

Regardless, this is exactly the reason I think hiplop is town (keyword: intent) and exactly the reason I think you're CR (other than PoE).

Added on to that i've been right quite a bit, and I think i've been quite pro-town.

You've been right about... Apok... and... that's it?



---

@Andrius

Toast claimed Orange, didn't he?

you guarantee me that then I'll help string up Ludi.

I've been fine with a mass claim all day. I don't have an issue with someone other than Subliminal co-ordinating night actions.

---

You know this lynch isn't going to flip CR. Hiplop actually has a chance of being CR. He's disappear when he got suspicion. He voted me with no reason. He then scurried off. Look. Please.

Would you bet money on it?

Because I'd be willing to bet I'm right about hiplop, even though I have no information to confirm it. And if you want to bet on it, I'll take you up.

[zMuffinMan]

I meant any kind of bet. I'd bet money on it, if you're willing. I really, really, really don't think hiplop is CR.

I also don't think that fake-claim means anything in terms of proving someone else's role. Like it should be rather obvious what my role is, and I don't think that fake-claim "proves" I'm town.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm not following how dana's "mod meta" proves anything here.

[zMuffinMan]

Why Kast?

[zMuffinMan]

How do you explain the crumb then?

[zMuffinMan]

unless you think recruits can talk to the CR immediately after being recruited?

[zMuffinMan]

wait, no, still doesn't work, because you'd have to explain where npiau comes into it.

kast doesn't make sense as CR

[zMuffinMan]

heh, Night Zero, multiple recruits are possibly in play.

Do you mean multiple recruits each night or multiple starting members?

If the latter, and you believe that's the case, then very few people should be confirmed non-CR to you at this point. If the former, then sure, we could go all tinfoil and discuss allllll the possibilities here, but at some point you have to make assumptions.

As for your 'crumb', what of it? Crumbing a claim is entirely different to crumbing results.

[zMuffinMan]

I still believe Ludi is CR and his recent actions have done nothing to change my mind.

The biggest reason I suspect Ludi is simple PoE, which is the same reason he's down to his own "suspect list", but he refuses to acknowledge there's any reason to suspect him.

Every time I've brought up anything against him, he's claimed that I've done something I haven't actually done. For example, when I started arguing with him, he claimed that I was calling him a recruit (I wasn't) and that I was calling him scum (which I was, because I use the word scum to collectively refer to anything anti-town - cult, mafia, SK, etc, so this is kind of irrelevant). When I brought up the topic of why his NPIAU protect was weird, he tried to discredit me by claiming I also thought NPIAU was town (I didn't). And now he's claiming that subliminal (and hiplop) are hiding behind a claim to protect themselves when... derpity-derp, he's claiming he

must

be town because a JoaT fake-claim included "doc" and he's the only claimed Blue Lantern.

He keeps insisting there's no case against him, but there's just as much of a case against any of the claimed WLs (bar

Captain Derp

hiplop, who's the easiest target to go after).

Looking at his 6 reasons in #2616,

1.

Toog's fakeclaim included Doctor. If you think I am fakeclaiming, you would have to consider that dana put into the game two fakeclaims that would counter claim each other. More logical is the fact that I am actually a doctor.

Toog fake-claimed my role, albeit with different abilities. This means nothing, and I'm not going to pretend this proves anything about my own alignment.

2.

If you believe Saint Walker is not in the game, that would mean that there are entirely no blue lanterns initially in the game.

Yes.

3.

Doctor is a traceable role, and easily found out lying based on the already flipped information roles

So is just about any other fake-claim a CR could be given?

4.

This could be potentially the last day town has majority.

. . . . .

I think he was trying to suggest that his original role, doctor, necessarily fits into the game because at a certain point in time, the mafia

and cult

may outnumber town?

5.

This wagon on me is exceedingly lazy

All of the wagons today are based on PoE. The wagon on you is for a few main reasons:

1) Ruling out people who are currently "verified" by at least one other person <- based on NPIAU most likely being a N1 recruit.
2) From the remaining players, ruling out people who I'm simply not reading as CR (e.g. hiplop, Blackberry)
3) Given a choice between the remaining players (you, subliminal), the fact that subliminal is less of a threat even if he is CR because he was unable to recruit last night (HINT: THIS COMPLETELY COUNTERS YOUR POINT [4], BECAUSE WE'D CURRENTLY BE LOOKING AT 10:3:1 BY YOUR OWN CALCULATIONS), the fact that he's claimed a WL and is currently actually

trying

, I'm willing to believe he's more likely telling the truth.

6.

Mr. Sub and hiplop both put rather weak votes on me, and are the people detailed as being highest chance of cult recruiter by myself

That's amazing. hiplop aside, Subliminal has pretty clearly been on you for this entire day phase.



--------------------------


To answer a few queries I skimmed through over the last few pages:

@Kdub,

I have no way of confirming any of the claimed WLs are non-CR, and (once again) I've never pretended I could.

However, I'm ruling them out based on early play and things that don't make sense given their early play if they aren't actually CR. I actually have a full claim written up and ready to be posted which explains exactly what I mean.


@Andrius,

I'm not a downgrader. Downgrading is one of my abilities.

And I've probably missed some other stuff....

Does anyone actually have a problem with Subliminal's list of what should be done tonight, other than simply because it came from him?

[zMuffinMan]

Magister Ludi (6) - zMuffinMan, tanstalas, Kast, hiplop, Mr Subliminal, vezok
Mr Subliminal (5) - Nikanor, ToastyToast, Andrius, Magister Ludi, Oversoul

[zMuffinMan]

(kdub unvoted and Blackberry is still voting hiplop)

[zMuffinMan]

I'm really, really sleep-deprived at the moment, but I'm not so sleep-deprived that I can't sling insults.

You guys are fucking stupid.

That's all I have to say right now.

[zMuffinMan]

I need to make sense of some things.

Has blackberry outed his night action yet?

[zMuffinMan]

I need N3 action claim from Blackberry -> Oversoul -> Andrius -> vezok (in that order)

Don't claim out of order.

What do we have so far in terms of claimed actions?

N1

Andrius -> tanstalas (roleblock)
tanstalas -> Andrius (stole roleblocking power)
Oversoul -> CJ (no result)
vezok -> Oversoul (delay, presumably successful)
Toast -> Nikanor (jail)
??? -> Kdub (presumably FM)
Blackberry -> FM (died)
Ludi -> Andrius (protect)
Kast -> tans (tans->Andrius)

N2

Kast -> Blackberry (no result, vanillised N2)
Oversoul -> CJ (no result)
Ludi -> npiau (protect)
Andrius -> subliminal (roleblock)
muffin -> subliminal (downgrade)
tanstalas -> WLC (roleblock? vanillised N2)
vezok -> Kast (delay)
Blackberry -> muffin ("target" is not mafia)
Toast -> Oversoul (jail)

N3

Toast -> Ludi (jail)
Ludi -> hiplop (no result)
Blackberry -> ???
Oversoul -> ???
Andrius -> ???
vezok -> ???

----

Correct?

[zMuffinMan]

Also should probably finish mass claim soon. After people have outed their night actions in that order.

[zMuffinMan]

Subliminal's flip did not get janitored.

That is his role before he received his WL ring.

Mine is similar (in terms of having a different role when I get my ring).

It's also purple, if you couldn't already tell.

[zMuffinMan]

Wait for night action claims to finish before saying anything. I still want Blackberry to claim before vezok and Andrius do.

[zMuffinMan]

Stop. Talking. Until. Claims. Have. Finished.

[zMuffinMan]

Confirmed based on...?

If he has a result, he has a result, if he doesn't, he doesn't. He should be able to claim before role blockers tell us who they blocked.

[zMuffinMan]

(and I don't know why he didn't claim first thing)

[zMuffinMan]

Why are we ignoring getting claims from nikanor/hiplop?

We aren't.

Night action claims first, though.

Not claiming till last. If I claim roleblocked then andrius and other roleblockers have an easy claim to fake by saying they targeted me.

Yes, because with Oversoul saying Toast went nowhere, Toast saying he jailed Ludi, and Ludi saying he got no result, number one priority is for roleblockers to lie about targeting you... ... ... ...

durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Pay attention to the game please. Muffin already stated D3 that he couldn't use his power debuff/block as he used it N2 and he can't use it consecutive nights.

Indeed.

Finish night action claims, then we can finish mass claims, then we can sort this game out properly.

[zMuffinMan]

OK

WELL

While we are apparently waiting for shit to happen, I'd like to hear who Ludi thinks CR is. Blackberry should stop being a prima donna and just out his night action. And I'm happy to begin the rest of the claiming if it's going to stop this game stalling.

[zMuffinMan]

-It sounds like Muffin is willing to claim to break any deadlock (and previously was not part of Muffin's claim order other than a soft hint that he has info to shake things up AFTER the night actions are all claimed).

I don't. I was putting on a show to make it seem that way, though. I had a thought after the NK last night that made me think something was off about Blackberry, and I wanted him to claim first, but he's being a little bitch, and his posts continue to be shit, so I'm going to actively ignore everything he says for the rest of the game until he dies. I just find the choices of NK by scum rather interesting, and I'm guessing the Kdub kill was because they thought he was a serial killer, but it still doesn't explain Kdub over, say, Blackberry... Unless they thought Kdub was a serial killer who was likely to kill one of them (and this makes me doubt my Ludi-CR suspicion and instead makes me think Ludi-mafia is more likely, but then I'm stuck with the question... who the fuck is actually the CR?) or they thought Kdub was CR? Or some other reason I don't currently understand.

Still, in the interests of moving the game along, and considering we aren't going anywhere fast right now, I'm thinking we may as well finish mass claims. So far the only three people yet to claim are Nikanor, hiplop and I, and I don't think it particularly matters which order we go in because we've all got white lantern claims so order isn't likely to affect anything with fake-claims or whatever.

Sent my claim to the mod just to check there's nothing in it that will get me modkilled. I don't think there is, but you know, better safe than sorry. Claim was written up D2 and also explains a few things other than simply being a role claim... only thing that's changed is Subliminal's flip altering one of my theories on my own night actions.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnddddddddddddddddd

@Mod,

Prod/force-replace on Nikanor would be appreciated.

[zMuffinMan]

Toast,

I think you are wrong about Nikanor. You are the one that suggested going into a 1-on-1 with Nikanor, not him. That was completely your overreaction to the situation. You're claiming he's doing scummy-as-fuck shit, he's not. He's just being useless. It's not a good thing, but it doesn't mean he's scum. You've provided no reasonable explanation for how the recruits occurred on top of your jailing of Nikanor N1.

Can you unvote to prevent someone coming in and hammering? Pretty please, with sugar on top.

What do you think of Oversoul claiming you went nowhere last night?

[zMuffinMan]

OK. So then Nikanor as CR should make even less sense to you.

[zMuffinMan]

Do we want to finish mass claims or is that fruitless at this point? Personally, I'm not considering lynching either of the other white lanterns right now, so mass claiming doesn't benefit me, except for perhaps making sense of a couple of things.

At this point, the only person I'm even considering a possible CR outside of Ludi is Blackberry. But apparently I'm being paranoid about this because this setup supposedly requires a mafia cop (who,

coincidentally

, has no verifiable results to speak of). But, meh, just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean he ain't out ta get me.

[zMuffinMan]

Yeah, there's no reason he can't be CR. That doesn't mean he is CR.

Tell me why you think Nikanor is CR again.

Something to do with him lurking and claiming conditional bulletproof, right? What are you going to do when he flips WL? Who's CR then, Blackberry?

[zMuffinMan]

Cult can usually lose D1, though...

Plus double day is overrated. It just lets town be stupid twice as much.

Plus even if Oversoul were backup recruiter, claiming Toasty went nowhere doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

What's your opinion on Ludi, Nikanor?

[zMuffinMan]

what did he lie about?

[zMuffinMan]

VOTE: Ludi

More later.

[zMuffinMan]

You mean a scum-watcher on Andrius?

[zMuffinMan]

Or you mean someone other than Kast is a scum-tracker and told him to crumb it for some reason?

[zMuffinMan]

OK. So who do you think is CR?

[zMuffinMan]

Oversoul, in spite of the claimed delay + claimed jail + 2 flipped recruits?

[zMuffinMan]

Unrelated to that, zmuffin, who do you think the remaining mafia here is?

2-3 of {Oversoul, ToastyToast, vezokpiraka, Andrius, Blackberry}

I'd look at claimed role interrupters before I look at the other two, though.

And when CR is actually dead, I'll start going back and looking properly at it. Might even get around to doing a VCA at some point (probably in the latter half of the day).

WAIT.

LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT.

The ORIGINAL color was unreadable.

So the mods had to clarify with you afterwards.


So, you're saying...


THAT THIS "MASONRY" WAS BECAUSE THE MODS DONE FUCKED UP?

hiplop is oversimplifying what dana's mod PM was about, but essentially, yes, it was because of a mod fuck-up.

What hiplop neglected to mention is that dana's mod PM also clarified that we are actually white lanterns. Our role PMs allude to

becoming

white lanterns when we get our rings, but don't actually tell us what we currently are (for example, I'm purple, so was subliminal, justice league WLs are justice league, and, as you can probably tell from hiplop and nikanor's posts prior to whenever it was that dana sent the mod PM, they didn't actually know they were white lanterns).

This is a major part of the reason I think both Nikanor and hiplop at least started out as white lanterns, and my logic here was going to be explained when I full-claimed my role.

ftr, here's the second half of my claim (without the part about my role):

Spoiler:

Basically, as hiplop has already covered, dana sent out a PM to anyone who received a WL PM clarifying two things:

First, as hiplop mentioned, the WL role PMs were written on a different site and transferred over to MS, so the white text in the white lantern role PMs was lost in the MS background. As such, there's a small "gap" in our role PMs where it mentions our WL abilities.

The second, and more important, thing that it clarified was that we are actually white lanterns. As you can probably tell from the white lantern flips so far, nobody has actually flipped "white lantern corps". Our role PMs don't mention actually

being

white lanterns - only that we gain white lantern powers if the white lantern rings come into play.

This is an important point, because if you look back at what was being said D1, you can perhaps understand why dana sent out the mass PM, and also perhaps understand why I've been saying that, even though the claimed WLs aren't cleared, I believe them to actually be WLs.

hiplop's early play makes no sense if he's scum with a WL fake-claim. #162, #179, #183 for example, read as hiplop-WL genuinely thinking vezok fucked up and botched a fake-claim. Also, no offense to hiplop, but I don't think this is a play he's capable of as scum with a WL fake-claim.

nikanor's #83, #205, #298 are the reasons I think he's genuine in his WL claim, and are also the main reason I think dana sent the PM out. Both him and hiplop were really, really confused about whether or not they were actually white lanterns, and since our original role PMs do not state explicitly that we are currently white lanterns, dana sent a PM to us indicating that we are, in fact, white lanterns. #323 and ensuing confirmation posts are the aftermath of this.

^ That was all pre-written.

TOAST NO ACTION'D LAST NIGHT>
IS THEREFORE CULTEE UNLESS OVERSOUL WAS CULTED TOO AND IS BUSSING? LOLNO DOESNT WORK THAT WAY NOT ENOUGH NIGHTS

Um, so when was Toasty culted and how does this explain his "no action".

I think a more reasonable explanation is that someone is lying about their blocking actions or Oversoul is lying for whatever reason. And if Oversoul is mafia and Toasty is town, I could see this being the case.

MODS: If I physically daykill Toast and Nikanor in Canada, will they flip in-thread? Also, will those count seperately from the lynches? Thanks.

Did the mod ever give you an answer to this?



-----

HIPLOP

STOP BEING A STOOGE

-----

@Ludi,

OK.

So you think Toasty is CR.

Well, It is possible that Oversoul is your recruit, or Oversoul simply replied for his own anti-town motives, or i'm not sure what oversoul is doing. Oversoul now claims that you went nowhere last night, and you're blatantly lying and said you did. Unless you believe on night three oversoul decided to start lying and not on night two.

What do you make of Oversoul's claim, then? Why does it make sense for Toasty-CR to have gone nowhere? You must believe 1 of 3 things:

1) Oversoul is lying
2) Toasty was roleblocked
3) Toasty no-actioned and is unlikely to be CR

Which is it? And if you aren't sure, why do you think Toasty is the most likely CR?

Where else would he track Toasty? To Ludi?

UMMMMMMMMMMMMM... YEAH

Why would Oversoul as a backup recruiter to Toasty-CR LIE about tracking Toast nowhere when Toast had already claimed to have jailed Ludi? What does Oversoul have to gain as a backup-CR by doing this? How does this make any sense whatsoever?

Look, the only way that OS and Toasty are both telling the truth is if there is a MyStErY rOlEbLoCkEr somewhere out there that decided to block the jailkeeper who was going to target Ludi.

This can be explained without supposing a "mystery roleblocker". Hint: What if one of the claimed roleblockers is *gasp*

lying

?

You cleared Ludi for claiming doctor. The hypocrisy in this statement alone makes the rest of your post meaningless.

Arbitrarily clearing people for ridiculous WiFOM reasons is invalid (yes saying "he's too crazy to be scum" is WiFOMy crap-logic).

YOU YOURSELF are *CLEARED* because of roles and theories about what makes a balanced setup. These are tools we have to use and they should be used ALONG WITH analyzing game play.

Thank you, Kast. I was about to beat my head against a brick wall over and over again. At least someone else realises how fucking stupid Blackberry is if he's not scum.

Mod pretty much confirmed that NPIAU was recruited N1 and KDUB was recruited N2.

Where?

We're actually trying to lynch the Cult Recruiter here, not mislynch townie after townie until either cult has enough numbers to win or your mafia faction controls enough of the town to win as well. We can't afford more mislynches.

...

You must be trying to make me rage. This is coming from the guy who spent yesterday telling me that hiplop or Subliminal must be the CR?

Any town player who wants to remove the CR from the game should be voting Nikanor.

See you guys tomorrow.

This is... the second fucking time... you've tried to turn this into a 1-on-1 with someone...

Or are we forgetting the WLC shit that happened in the first half of D3?

What are you going to do when Nikanor flips white lantern, OS?

[zMuffinMan]

On a completely unrelated note,

holy crap... Was reading over some ISOs.

subliminal heads, if you are still reading this... I want you to know I hate you for commuting N1. Ask dana to tell you why.

[zMuffinMan]

You know what's still bugging me? That indigo light.

[zMuffinMan]

Nono, I still think hiplop could be CR. More case coming.

Can't wait.

I don't know what this means.

That's OK. I wasn't particularly interested in hearing your theories on how the purple light came from Kast who is the backup roleblocker for the team of serial killers.

Has everyone character claimed?

No. Why is this even important?

Why hasn't Nikanor claimed yet? He obviously isn't a power role

There's this pain in my forehead that starts throbbing every time you post.

(1)

Why are you voting Ludi when Nikanor is obviously the CR?

(2)

Ludi is the recruit. >_>

(1)

Ah, just like WLC before him, right?

(2)

Yeah, number one priority for Nikanor-CR last night was to recruit Ludi... ... ...

I'm starting to agree with my brother's conclusion; OS is probably Ludi's recruit. He probably called the null result on Toasty in order to get the town-JK mislynched so that Toasty can't block Ludi again.

I don't think so. I'm not sure what Oversoul's agenda is, but I don't see how he could be Ludi's recruit. Only one that even makes sense as a recruit for Ludi would be Andrius.

Did anyone answer whether or not is was impossible for hiplop to be CR because that still seems like a very plausible possibility.

Impossible? No.

I've explained why I don't think he's CR. Although my explanation is mostly based on me not giving hiplop very much credit for being able to pull off what he's done in this game as a CR with a WL fake-claim.

[zMuffinMan]

Oh, and in case anyone missed it, vezok has already claimed a delay on Nikanor, so if Nikanor is the CR, he

shouldn't

have a recruit right now. And I

think

Blackberry has an inno on vezok.

[zMuffinMan]

(not to mention Toast's claimed jail on Nikanor N1, with 2 recruits already flipped)

[zMuffinMan]

Nikanor's claim fits CR perfectly, but I see your point with the claimed roles. Meh. I still feel Nikanor is CR and his lurkiness and claim proves it. Just like Ludi's loss of libido (lol) proves he was culted.

But... you don't even know what Nikanor's claim is. He claimed some sort of conditional bulletproof, but he hasn't elaborated or claimed any further than that.

Why do you think Nikanor, as a CR, would openly claim to be bulletproof in thread? Surely the smarter play, if he's the CR, would be to hide this. And I know if it's a WL fake-claim, he has something more elaborate than simply "lolbulletproof".

I don't like his lurking in recent days, but I don't think it's indicative of alignment.

not sure what zmuffin is doing up in's this thread. Its getting wearing to argue against this mislynch nonsense on myself day after day. Kdub almost hammered me, was a recruit yesterday, and people still think I am the cult recruiter. I don't get it.

I think Kast has pretty much explained my own thoughts on this already.

I don't see how the interaction between you and Kdub can be written off as "impossible CR-recruit relationship". He didn't hammer you, he knew he wasn't hammering you, he unvoted when you requested it, he never put his vote back on you... It looked like a distancing attempt.

Not to mention I don't agree with either of your other CR candidates.

hiplop I just cannot get behind and even if you're lynched and flip something other than CR, I still cannot see myself voting him. Like, a lot of this has to do with the fact that I looked at his play D1, tried to understand it coming from hiplop as a fake-claim, and simply couldn't see him being capable of doing that - no offense to him, I just don't think he's able to keep up an act like that. And the rest of his play hasn't done anything to contradict this - yeah, he's not playing in the most pro-town way, but I think that's more an issue with hiplop than role-related reasons.

And Toast simply doesn't make sense as a CR for a few reasons (OS N2 + "went nowhere" N3? How does this make sense for a CR?)

Hiplop is most likely mafia.

This is also very unlikely. I don't have much of a basis for this belief, but when you consider that the

leader

of the mafia team claimed Green Lantern... Like the only possible mafia member that would make sense having a WL fake-claim based on this is Sinestro, and even then I don't think so. You also have to consider that the claimed WLs have been acting as somewhat of a masonry in working to get all 3 mafia lynches in the first 2 days. I don't think that was bussing.

If Magister Ludi is not CR, he's probably scum via his incredibly anti-town and warped attitude on D3 and D4.

I don't think Ludi makes sense as mafia. For example, I don't see Ludi-mafia going "Oh, looks like we lynched my buddy in the first half of D1. Optimal play here is to bus Apok!" and I don't think Ludi-mafia is going to openly suggest he thinks his buddy GhostWriter is a town PR when GW was on the verge of being lynched.

If Ludi isn't CR, he's not mafia.

TOASTY, you are obviously lying to have said you roleblocked me last night when Oversoul says you didn't.

Why are you assuming that vezok and Andrius aren't lying? Wouldn't it be plausible for Oversoul-tracker to have tracked Toast-JK nowhere if one of Andrius and vezok actually targeted Toast?

And why does this even make sense for Toast-CR? Obviously if you think Toast is CR, you must think Oversoul is lying. And if you think Oversoul is lying, you shouldn't have any reason to think Toast is CR, because he wouldn't have lied..................

You could see how easily yesterday they wagoned me and everyone else. That is not the hallmark of a cult recruiter lynch.

Who are "they"? And why does this mean anything?

Also, out of interest, why do you think Kdub unvoted you?

you've narrowed down CR to someone who has no confirmed night actions (Nik/Hiplop/Vezok/Muffin)

Interestingly, I think I actually do have a way of confirming my own night actions.

I targeted Subliminal N1 and was told my action did not succeed. This was sort of crumbed by me asking him over and over about passive abilities and accusing him of being an action-immune day killer at one point (lol). Pretty sure my action failed because he commuted N1, which sucks, because I would have been able to stop WLC's lynch (and quite possibly Subliminal's as well) had Subliminal chosen not to commute N1.

By no means is this any sort of solid confirmation, but yeah...

[zMuffinMan]

Indeed.

[zMuffinMan]

hmmm. Reading over Kdub in ISO, I think it's likely we're looking at a single CR (no backup). Although I could be WIFOMing myself here.

Why do you think Kdub's posts clear Ludi?

If Ludi is the CR, Kdub's play makes perfect sense. He came into the game, realised in #2600 that most people in the game had been 'cleared' via night actions / claims, and proceeded to bus. When more possibilities opened up, he retracted his vote, realising that he didn't actually need to bus, and so never again put his vote on Ludi (despite keeping Ludi at the top of his CR-suspect list).

I don't quite understand why Kdub was so eager to hear claims from hiplop/Nikanor/myself. It makes me think that none of the claimed WLs are the CR, but this comment by Kdub is also making me doubt myself:

If one of the claimed WLs is actually the recruiter, well we can blame a loss on them for being stupid and leading us to believe otherwise.

[zMuffinMan]

I think Nikanor's lack of posting is what's distracting from that, actually. I could be wrong.

[zMuffinMan]

RRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[zMuffinMan]

OK, so I was thinking. Mass claim is still viable. No worries about being culted now, so that's not an issue, and Andrius+Toast double-blocking Ludi means he wasn't lying when he said his recruit on BB failed last night.

I know one of my WL abilities has the potential to completely destroy the scum team if I'm not roleblocked and I get my night action right. I'm guessing hiplop and Nikanor have similarly powerful abilities now that we've got our rings.

I'm thinking Andrius is the best lynch for the second half of the day. Mostly because I want to try and get rid of potential scum roleblocking abilities, and I find him far more likely to be scum than Toast or vezok at this point.

[zMuffinMan]

I promised myself I'd read D1 again after we lynched CR. So. brb

[zMuffinMan]

@hiplop + nikanor

Do you want to claim and co-ordinate night actions?

----

Anyway, I sorta got a little bit into re-reading D1.

Spoiler: to be examined when I can be bothered

ooba (8) - WeyounsLastClone, Candle Jack, nopointinactingup, Toogeloo, Andrius, Apokalyptika, vezokpiraka, Ghostwriter
Toogeloo (4) - Nikanor, Lady Lambdadelta, zMuffinMan, Friend
Andrius (4) - mastin2, Mr. Subliminal, inHimshallibe, Oversoul
vezokpiraka (2) - ooba, hiplop
nopointinactingup (1)- ToastyToast
WLC (1) - tanstalas

Not Voting (6) - FrozenMirror, Kast, marco1610, kondi2424

--------------------------

^VC prior to lolmasondaycopguilty - no scum on toog or Andrius? (for the purposes of VCA, Oversoul counts as town because he isn't mafia) scum pileup on ooba quite possibly because Andrius and Toog are the only other wagons. Why isn't any mafia jumping on Andrius?

Also, Apok's ISO is a goldmine, considering most of the players he talked about are still alive. His interactions with vezok + Toast don't look like scum-on-scum interaction. Quite possible scum with Andrius, though.

Also Andrius's post have soooooooooo much IIoA in them and so little interaction with flipped mafia - virtually none at all.

(I have mild town reads on most of the players left alive. BB is like one of the only players I don't have a town read on, apart from Andrius).

[zMuffinMan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you also didn't have a town read on WLC or Mr. S ...

I did have a town read on WLC. I said he was town over and over. I tried pretty hard to stop his lynch.

Subliminal I was less sure about, but that was mostly due to the fact that I didn't know he was a WL and my N1 action on him failed (most probably because he commuted) and this made me suspicious of some sort of action immunity at work or something. Turns out, it was action immunity, so...

Yet apparently you have a town read on Tans & Nikanor.

I've been calling

all

WLs town, all game. I've explained this several times, actually. So yeah, I am like 99.9999999% sure Nikanor actually is a WL and town. As for tans, some things he said in the early stages of the game made me think he was town. Also don't really see tans-scum confidently outing the fact he's Larfleeze. Also don't see tans-scum making this big a deal out of the whole vanillisation thing.

You have absolutely no idea how my 'scumdar' works if you think I'm suspicious of you because of the quantity of posts... It's more the fact that I haven't seen anything from you that makes me think you're town. I don't understand your thought processes in this game, and quite frankly, if Nikanor tells me that he targeted IHSIB N2, I'm instantly lynching you, no questions asked.

[zMuffinMan]

If the answer I get from Le Mod is what I want it to be, I don't need to claim my action anyway. Pretty sure there's nothing scum can do to prevent it going through tonight. I just have to target the right player.

[zMuffinMan]

A 'gambit' like that doesn't make you town, so yeah, it would obviously have been a gambit, but a gambit that doesn't tell me much about your alignment, except that you were willing to pull some dumb fucking gambit in an attempt to lynch a WL.

Going back to what I was saying,

I don't understand your thought processes in this game

.

[zMuffinMan]

Suppose you had successfully pulled off that gambit. Do you realise how fucking screwed town would be if you're actually town? We

might

have been able to get a Ludi lynch still in the second half of the day, but that "gambit" would have thrown a major wrench in the works.