Mass Effect Mafia (Draw)

[Rhinox]

God I'm glad I didn't get Udina. That's how you get rewarded for picking the best draft numbers eh Rhinox.

/confirm.

I know, right? The 3rd re-roll I just rolled a 10,10 and told the mods to just give me whoever was left

p.s. what does a governor do anyways, I've never seen the role before?

[Rhinox]

oh it prevents a lynch. (wiki)

why would I ever want to do that?

[Rhinox]

^^^well udina is kinda a dick, so...

[Rhinox]

I still havent got a pm yet. what is everyone confirming?

[Rhinox]

ah, now I can /confirm I've received mah role PM

[Rhinox]

vote: hiraki

because I don't like him (not really )

[Rhinox]

Lynching governor on Day 1 doesn't really sound like a great idea.

Vote: Sathoris

cause he's a roleblocker. Just a shot in the dark really.

Can a Governor Govern themselves?

yes, I can

[Rhinox]

hmmmm... I have NEVER seen a Governor be able to save themselves from lynch. In-fact, I don't recall ANY power roles that can use their power on themselves such as cop, doc, tracker etc.

mod says I can, asked right after receiving my role PM.

whats so scary about a governor anyways? Only bad scenario I can think of is that a scum governor is unlynchable in lylo. Conversely, a town governor is only really helpful in lylo as far as I can tell.

If its a role everyone is really so worried about being scum, being an open setup, at anytime you guys can ask me to use it on myself (or any other player) and take the role out of consideration.

[Rhinox]

Game I played with a Governor prevented any votes for a player during the day phase (or reduced all votes to 0), but allowed lynching of another player.

Pretty much this. I get the option to use it in twilight before the lynch scene is posted. If I use it, the player I use it on may not be lynched for the rest of the day. So no, it doesn't end the day. Yes, I can use it at will (but don't see a reason to before lylo unless you guys want to blow away the role).

[Rhinox]

I could be down with that BUT:

ITT: Scum Backup tries to swoop a governor.

Unvote, Vote: Toog

I assume the backup only gets the role if I die without using it. Thus, forcing me to use it on myself isn't going to help a scum backup any.

[Rhinox]

Hey guys, let's test Rhinox's claim:

Unvote;
Vote: Rhinox

We approve this message, it could be worth it to see what happens next.

Vote: Rhinox

What are you guys looking to get out of me using the governor shot today?

[Rhinox]

I'm certainly not liking the fact with silent wraith jumping onto a band wagon, but that really isn't enough to vote him so i'll

FoS: Silent wraith

for now.

Has no vote out though.

Extreme caution here, not sensing to be a townie caution.

I agree with Hiraki.

unvote, vote ender

I also somewhat agree with spy's thinking here, because I just realized toog made that comment before I let everyone know I could govern myself. And then there's this:

Lynching governor on Day 1 doesn't really sound like a great idea.

Vote: Sathoris

cause he's a roleblocker. Just a shot in the dark really.

Can a Governor Govern themselves?

yes, I can

There it is, surprised I missed it consider the game isn't moving that fast. Makes it impossible to determine alignment if we give Rhinox an out to Govern himself since town and scum alike would govern themselves. It would be better served he

don't

use it on himself to better see what reads he is willing to Govern.

^^^ ITT scum backup now realizes that if he wants to get the governor shot I have to not use it today??

[Rhinox]

^^^ ITT scum backup now realizes that if he wants to get the governor shot I have to not use it today??

Caught scum-universal backup is caught.

Vote: ender

toog is the backup though

[Rhinox]

The main basis of the argument is that Toog voted seriously, in the time of RVS correct?

Actually, the way I understand it, its that he voted seriously (regardless of when), and when pressured about his reasoning, he tried to play it off as LOLRVS. And then he tried to deflect by basically saying "hey what about everyone elses RVS votes why don't you question them?"

I don't really get toog's 1v1 proposed plan. I don't see how he's even really presented any argument for reck scum, but he's willing to 1 for 1 with him? It's not a pro-town plan, but its not something I'd expect scum to do either, knowing that once toog flips scum, reck won't be autolynched. The proposal seems either like stupid town, or some desparate gambit to try to make reck look like confirmed town after toogscum dies or something like that. I'll consider the plan proposal null.

The second is written incorrectly.

What I meant to say is that Toog has done too many things that have been noted to be scummy or radical. He hasn't fit in with the crowd, he's made himself stand out.

Can scum do this? Yes.

Are we lynching plausible scum who can do this on D1? No.

no, this is wrong. This is only valid when a player is actively trying to stand out and be the center of attention. Toog hasn't been trying to stand out, he just is, because he's been scummy.


I still agree with hiraki that ender should be getting more attention for this post:

I'm certainly not liking the fact with silent wraith jumping onto a band wagon, but that really isn't enough to vote him so i'll

FoS: Silent wraith

for now.

As hiraki already explained. It pinged my scumdar too, mostly because of the weak FOS when ender didn't even have a vote anywhere else. Actually, ender hasn't placed a vote all game yet.

@ender:

Who's scum, and why aren't you voting?

[Rhinox]

@toog:

the fact you're trying to get us to agree to 1 for 1 you and reck based on gut and because you think he is trolling isn't going to cut it for me, and quite frankly is horrible play if you're town.

as for the first part, random voting

stage

emphasis added on stage doesn't exist as you're trying to use it. There isn't a

defined stage of the game

where

all votes

are random/joke/meaningless.

There are, however, individual votes that are random/joke/meaningless, and those votes continue early in the game until there are real reasons to vote and then they're no longer tolerated. Your vote was not random/joke/meaningless. It had a serious reason, you chose to vote me for a specific, game related, serious reason. Thats not the problem. The problem is you seem to be trying to avoid having to answer for that vote and avoid credibility for it by saying it was random/joke/meaningless, when clearly it wasn't. In other words, your vote was NOT an RVS vote, and you continued along in serious discussion that resulted because of your vote until your ido 9 when all of a sudden it was RVS.

Why didn't you just claim RVS in iso 3 when spyrex first accused you for your vote?

[Rhinox]

Nintendo.

Your case is fucking horrible.

Shut up.

This, pretty much.

Spyrex, what are your thoughts on the Jason/NA1/Hiraki love triangle going on? I noticed this post you made, oh I guess it was only yesterday but it seems longer back:

??

So you want them lynched because newbies don't deserve passes BUT not day 1?

Has this been addressed in your opinion? I'm interested in hearing where you were going with this question.

[Rhinox]

*headdesk*

facepalm.jpg

FTFY...

[Rhinox]

I can guarantee he is scum

How do you plan on doing that?

Vote: ender

L-1 VOTE BY THE WAY

(I think)

[Rhinox]

If it's of any consequence, I think both Jason and Nintendo are town. Not like I haven't seen the "lying gambit" before as well. Reck's hosted WoW game had a liar that was town on Day 1, who gambited against another town by lying.

I am more concerned with the players who are coming in and making jabs at the top suspects while allowing the more vocal players to push the lynches.

So who are those players then?

-----------------------

I have no fucking clue what jason and nintendo are going on about. @People saying they're VI's, you have games to back that up? Having never played with either of them, Nintendo is looking more scummy of the pair, basically insisting that jason is scum for no real reason. I haven't seen a good, real reason presented for how Jason is scum. Marco jumping off ender and into this crap distracting argument doesn't make me happy. Ghost saying he's ready to hammer ender and then jumping in to vote nintendo doesn't make me happy. The last 8 pages of this game, really, does not make me happy.

[Rhinox]

Shadow, you're now officially my hero.

The question is, is nintendo scum, or is he really just all... well... that ^^^ ?

[Rhinox]

If its quotes and doesn't fit on my screen I'm not reading it, fyi.

I'll go out on a limb and say nintendo is still town because call it a hunch that fits with the mess that is this page.

Shadow's posts were the most worthwhile and entertaining thing I've read in 15 pages.

[Rhinox]

are you implying you are scum?

You just stepped into "you were THINKING it" territory


wraith: why policy lynch when he can be vigged?

[Rhinox]

wraith: why policy lynch when he can be vigged?

Re-Re-Redirect.

But thats like saying I should be lynched because I could govern myself.

If he redirects off himself, its basically a scum claim.


p-edit hell: "Why waste a vig shot in that manner? A vig shot, correctly set up, can be another lynch for town." - I'd be fine with nintendo being a second lynch via a vig shot. How is that any different than what you're suggesting?

[Rhinox]

EBWOP: But thats like saying I should

n't

be lynched because I could govern myself.

[Rhinox]

wraith: why policy lynch when he can be vigged?

Re-Re-Redirect.

But thats like saying I should be lynched because I could govern myself.

If he redirects off himself, its basically a scum claim.


p-edit hell: "Why waste a vig shot in that manner? A vig shot, correctly set up, can be another lynch for town." - I'd be fine with nintendo being a second lynch via a vig shot. How is that any different than what you're suggesting?

1) You don't know the alignment of your Vig. If the 1 shot Vig is scum, they might NOT shoot Nintendo.
2) You only have one shot with the Vig, where you can lynch every night. (Unless you're refering to Tali's ability, which is a gifter ability),

meh. 2 roles could kill tonight, another could potentially kill tomorrow. No more than 1 of those could be scum. Town vigs aren't neceassarily going to live long enough to use their shots if they don't use them early.

eh, I see what you're doing though. You think nintendo is scum, and you're trying to convince the rest of us on the fence that its a beneficial policy lynch to get the lynch through.

I'm not against seeing nintendo dead, but I'm not ready for a hammer now. Nothing really worthwhile has come out of today yet.

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox: Do not refer to SW as "Wraith" please. It is a little confusing.

--Wraith

heh, its not confusing to me

[Rhinox]

was prodded. Will get caught back up soon.

[Rhinox]

Intending to hammer ghost once everyone has said their peace for the day.

Only thing I don't like is the dramatics and flair in toog's results post. In my experience, townies generally give results straight and concise, while scum usually make a big deal about it and post something like toog's post. Just trying to think whether scum have any benefit in faking this result today and generally I'd say no but in recent games I've seen things seemingly just as dumb for scum to do.

[Rhinox]

hmmm... I think GW is already hammered, but there might be a benefit of keeping him alive, and I am the govna after all. GW, how exactly does your forensic investigate work? answer quick because I only have until the scene is posted to decide to spare you. You investigate a dead person and find out who killed them?

[Rhinox]

OK read the wiki you see everyone who ever targetted the dead player.

OK guys, hear me out. Not GW's plan, but SK (the other faction? however many there are) will HAVE to target GW tonight. If they don't, high probability that GW will learn who he (1 of them?) are and that means GW's scum team will know, even if GW refuses to tell us tomorrow.

So, someone better tell me real quick why we shouldn't leave GW alive to be killed by the second faction tonight (sparing a town death) because I'm real close to using this governor shot.

[Rhinox]

I'll let you guys think on it for a little bit, if nobody has anything to say about it I'll probably just let GW be lynched but I'll be sad you guys didn't think it through more. Lynching scum is never bad but watching scum get cross killed by other scum seems better, we save a town death overnight, and we get today's lynch to find a different scum. Worst case scenario, we would just lynch GW tomorrow.

[Rhinox]

You NEVER cut deals with scum.

I'm not talking about cutting a deal with GW, I'm proposing that if the second faction (assuming there is one, based on the flavor, whether its an sk or whatever) doesn't want GW's scum team (or the town, if GW chooses to make it public - whether he does or doesn't is irrelevant) to know who made their factional kill (assuming the unexplained kill is the second factions factional kill), then the second faction needs to target GW tonight so his result from tonight dies with him.

Its not making deals, its just setting up cross kills. If the second faction doesn't kill GW tonight, I'd assume that GW's faction would be told (either through direct QT talk or code in the thread tomorrow), and we could lynch GW then, and watch as someone from the second faction gets nked.

I don't care for GW's plan because we've got no guarantee he won't say a townie was the sk to get a mislynch and dwindle our numbers. His faction, based on his results, could then decide to take out the real sk or whoever at their leisure. So, the idea isn't to follow GW's plan, it would be if he's not nked, he's lynched no matter what tomorrow. And the only thing I care about is that the second faction knows GW's faction will know who made the 2nd faction's kill if GW survives the night.

How do you know that GhostWriter even still has his abilities? Like I suggested before, he could just have a new scum role.

Ummm... is this even a game mechanic? I thought the whole idea was this was smalltown and everyone's role's were public but alignments were not??? Either way, like I said it doesn't matter what GW tells us about his results, the 2nd faction don't know if he doesn't still have his ability and would still have to nk him.

I'm not going to use the gov shot now if there isn't someone other than me who thinks its a good idea. GW, you don't count.

[Rhinox]

GW can just give us a townie and ensure a scum win. GW needs to die.

Did you even read my post at all?

Rhinox: if we leave GhostWriter alive, there's NO WAY for town to win this.

Now this just sounds like fearmongering. If this were true, then a) today would have to be lylo, and b) we'd mislynch if we tried to lynch anyone other than ghost.

But um.

Wouldn't that mean that the only plausible way that scum could win would be if they had all the night killing roles and/or bus driver?

ummm... no? Scum could be in good shape with any number of possible role combination in this game, and there is probably also factional kills in addition to whatever assigned roles the scum ended up with - at least in how I understand smalltown games to work.

[Rhinox]

5) Scum did not send in a kill.

This doesn't seem very smart for scum in this situation so I'm not considering it.

I don't have a good handle on this game at the moment so I might have to go back and reread a bit.

[Rhinox]

What's the case? Amrun blocked me? I'm acutally not sure why most of you are voting me, and I'd like to hear it. Particularly since Reck's been trolling most of this game of this game. I protected Toog last night.

Oh, did you?

Because Toog watched himself and I'm pretty sure he'd know if you did this.

bzzzzzzzzzzt

This is correct.

Watched myself last night, and I only had 2 visitors. Reck, who neighbored me, and PeregrineV, who gifted me.

This doesn't prove SW is scum anymore than the lack of a kill does, as Amrun has already claimed blocking SW. So there's really nothing to be excited about by toog not seeing SW target him. But we are running out of possible explainations so unless someone is BP and thinks they drew the nk, seems like SW has to be the lynch.

[Rhinox]

Amrun, did you say why you targetted SW? just curious.

[Rhinox]

Coming back to this Day 1 post.

Would you mind governing yourself today Rhinox? Speaking personally, I don't want any Governor shenanigans as we get closer to end game. If anyone disagrees, feel free to keep it.

What sort of governor shenanigans exactly are you worried about?

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox - can you use your govoner at any time, or is there any restrictions on how you not being able to use it with a certain amount of people left in game IE LyoL

No limitations, except it can only be used after a lynch and before the scene.

I don't think a Governor is necessary to have at end game, and I especially don't want a potential LyLo situation to come up and it to be an issue. Whether Rhinox is the last scum, or he governs the last scum, it should just not even be an issue nor should we have to worry about it being an issue.

What issues?

End game is the time a Governor is most useful for town for 2 big reasons - prevents a scum quickhamer, and makes me an unlynchable townie.

The only issues you should have is if you think I'm scum, and in that case you should be making a case against me instead of / before asking me to use my governor shot today.

Can someone explain the rhinox governing conversation?

I'm a 1-shot governor, once a majority has been reached, I can use my ability to prevent the lynch. Day continues, but the player I pardoned can not be lynched for the rest of the day. Some people are paranoid about this role being in scum hands.

[Rhinox]

Well the problem is, in Lynch or Lose, and you are scum, and your partner gets lynched, you can stop it and kill in night to win the game. that is the issue and why I was asking about it. I ran a scum govoner in a game and it caused a lot of confusion to people. He was lynched early though and could not stop his own lynch, in fact I have never seen one that could stop his own, but shrug not going to even try outguessing mod.

here is link to the scum govoner game I mentioned just for reference!

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=17325

If its Lylo, and I stop a lynch thats not an obvious scum quickhamer situation, the day continues and you can lynch me if you think I'm scum.

Game I played with a Governor prevented any votes for a player during the day phase (or reduced all votes to 0), but allowed lynching of another player.

Pretty much this. I get the option to use it in twilight before the lynch scene is posted. If I use it, the player I use it on may not be lynched for the rest of the day. So no, it doesn't end the day. Yes, I can use it at will (but don't see a reason to before lylo unless you guys want to blow away the role).

Didn't you earlier say you had the

option

to use it in twilight? But now you can only use it in twilight? This also seems like a very limited use Governor considering we could potentially lynch with you away and then the scene get posted shortly after and you would be completely unawares.

Don't be an idiot. "I get the option to use it in twilight" means I can only use it in twilight, after a lynch has occured. I either use it in twilight or I don't use it at all. I can send in a just in case action to the mod in case I'm not around, but it does not count as an action until the player I'm choosing to govern is officially lynched. Meaning I can send a PM to the mod saying "If X is lynched, I will govern them". That does not count as using my shot unless X is actually lynched.

Also, usually a Governor using his power does end the day, just with no lynch as a lynch has been reached. At least in my experience

No, I'm telling you it doesn't.

Rhinox refuses to govern himself.

He also has yet to vote SW. Instead, he has done things like say "Oh, btw Amrun, why'd you block Wraith?"

Rhinox is a probable buddy.

God you are all being [REDACTED].

IF YOU WANT ME TO USE MY SHOT ON MYSELF, YOU HAVE TO LYNCH ME FIRST. I CAN'T JUST USE IT NOW ON MYSELF, BECAUSE I HAVE NOT BEEN LYNCHED, THEREFOR I CAN NOT BE PARDONED

Isn't SW at L-1? I didn't want to hammer until discussion for the day was done, and we've exhausted all other possible explainations for the no-kill.

[Rhinox]

Will you using your power end the day? or will day continue? I am guessing from your above that it will end the day.

are you fucking kidding me... am I being punk'd?

How my times have I said now that using the governor shot DOES NOT END THE DAY.

DOES NOT END THE DAY.

Can I make it any more clear?

Player reaches majority.
I either govern or not.
If I govern, day continues, player that I govern can not be lynched the rest of the day.

How have I not been clear about this since day fucking 1?

[Rhinox]

see, thats what i thought until you said this and contridicted yourself.

Isn't SW at L-1? I didn't want to hammer until discussion for the day was done,

and we've exhausted all other possible explainations for the no-kill.

how will it be cutting of discussion for the day IF you say day continues? If you hammer, and it doesnt end day, discussion continues.. so what you said in bold makes no sense

ummmm... because I'm not governing SW?

Where's the disconnect here? Whats so hard to understand about this?

[Rhinox]

BULLSNORK!!!! In a MYLO situation, if you save scum, they shoot a town role and scum wins. Gov at end game is anti-town.

..................

....


......

Go read this past page and figure out why the scenario wouldn't happen, because we literally just went over this. I'm well past annoyed at having to explain this over and over.

[Rhinox]

no you didn't. There's no way to say that this won't happen unless you know the number of scum in the game.

It won't happen if I'm town because I'm not going to randomly decide to govern someone in LyLo without a good reason (aka an obv scum quickhammer on a townie).

It won't happen if I'm scum because if I use my shot on obv scum, the day does not end and you can lynch me instead if you think I'm scummy for using the shot.

The only way this govern shot can screw over the town in lylo is if I'm the sole remaining scum (because I'd be unlynchable), or if I'm town and use the shot stupidly (which I won't). The reason the gov shot is powerful for the town at end game is because it prevents a scum quickhammer and reduces the number of players that scum can mislynch.

[Rhinox]

V/LA until monday

[Rhinox]

This is tough. I keep second guessing my reads. I'll just throw out that my first gut scum reads today were Hiraki and Nero. But I'll go down through the list:

PeregrineV: Not sure why amrun blocked him. Seems like the role almost has to be town, as someone has already said, this role as scum could just gift scum partners. IIRC, he tried to gift Toog D1 and a 1-shot vig evaporated into nothingness, D2 gift went to Toog (confirmed), D3 blocked but going to obvtown amrun.

Jason: VI, could easily make the case that just about everything he says is scummy, but he's probably town.

Toog: thought he was scummy earlier in the game. Prob-town now. Curious about 1 thing I just realized, but it can wait.

Reck: If I have it all straight, he networked with spy, toog, and Amrun. The D3 discussion was odd, about how reck is obvtown because he would have told scum partner SW who toog was targetting and wouldn't have faked a protect, but somehow reck kept forgetting that SW was blocked by amrun so SW didn't actually fake a protect at all. But I think the fact that reck was assuming SW was faking a result pretty much means he can't be scum with SW otherwise he'd have KNOWN he wasn't faking a result via quicktopic.

That leaves Hiraki and Nero.

Nero Cain is more or less completely POE.

Hiraki is my top pick. First there was the comment back on D2 I think about how scum get new roles and can't use the old one any more and he made a similar comment today in 834. I don't see how Hiraki keeps coming up with this idea, its not in the rules, as far as we all know, everyone has the role thats listed on the first page and apart from factional kills, thats it. It seems like these comments could be slips of inside information - that he knows scum have extra roles they can swap for the role they were assigned because he's scum and was told about that mechanic. Its like when you're in a game and you've got no reason to believe there are 2 scum teams, but people keep talking about 2 scum teams and then at the end of the game you realize those people were scum who knew there had to be 2 scum teams due to the size of their faction? Yeah, thats the kinda vibe these roleswitching comments are giving me.

The above is just speculation, more important points:

- There was the whole discussion about peregrineV yesterday while SW was about to be lynched. Hiraki did vote and unvote SW before, but for the most part I felt like Hiraki was trying to avoid commenting about SW.
- this post

vote: Hiraki

[Rhinox]

Well, if there is only 1 scum left, and scum can't kill and use their ability, the only living player who could have sent in the Amrun kill is Jason...
During that night, I was tracked going nowhere
Pere was blocked
Reck networked
Toog is town for other reasons*
Jason did ?????

If scum can kill and use their ability, and there is only 1 scum, then scum can be reck or jason...
I was tracked and went no where, so I didn't kill
Pere was blocked, thus didn't kill
Toog is still town for other reasons*

Since this makes it more or less assured that we will win at this point (we have 2 lynches to lynch 2* suspects), there is 1 thing I want to have out in the open before we lynch anyone...

*toog, you received a double vote from peregrineV N2 and used it D3 yes? Was it compulsory or did you choose to use it?

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, I'm quite ready to hear these supposed reasons you believe Toogeloo to be town.

Primarily, Toog used a double vote to lynch scum on day 3. See below though...

*toog, you received a double vote from peregrineV N2 and used it D3 yes? Was it compulsory or did you choose to use it?

It was compulsory, and yes, I did get Double Vote from PV. I had to use it on Day 3, it could not be saved, nor was it listed in votals, hence the reason we ended with 4 votes on that day.


Not really gonna banter back at Reck. My logic and case is what it is, though Reck believes it is some form of AtE. Of the 4 remaining players other than myself, Reck has the greatest chance of being scum. Jason is very minimally behind him. PV and Rhinox are more or less guaranteed town. Simple Occam's Razor here.

I'm disappointed it was compulsory and could not be saved, because now you're not as confirmed town as I originally thought. My thinking was, no way in hell scum uses a dbl vote to bus a partner who was clearly going down anyways. What was your thinking in not saying anything about it when you were hammering on D3?

[Rhinox]

Will get caught up and comment tomorrow...

[Rhinox]

Alright so... I don't want to lynch toog today. Sorta making this an executive decision, seeing as I'm confirmed town and I have a gov shot, I'm pretty much saying a toog lynch is not going to happen today.

Here's the reasoning:

I can't completely trust toog based on his dblvote on a scum because he didn't even know he was dblvoting when he did it and possibly wouldn't have voted had he known he was hammering a scum partner. On the other hand, when I asked toog about it today, his response was honest which makes me think toog is still probably town. If Toog were scum, he could have very easily lied and said he chose to use the dblvote when he used it rather than saving it for a later day. Reck says me reasoning is stupid, but I respectfully disagree. An extra vote is EXTREMELY powerful for scum if the vote can be saved.

So its going to be by my will that either jason or reck will be today's lynch. Right now, reck is winning the race to the rope and its nearly solely due to posts 891 to 893. If those posts wouldn't exist, my vote would already be on jason actually. Going into last night, my thinking was that I was going to be voting Jason or Nero today, with Reck as a possibility only if scum could both use their action AND submit a kill. So with Nero dead, my vote

was

almost certainly going to go on Jason today, and if he wasn't scum Reck tomorrow.

Working on a post now that concisely lists my issues with Reck's recent posts.

[Rhinox]

Lets just start with this:

Allow me to explain something: I will not accept a lynch on myself unless there is a case presented using actual evidence to back it up.

Can you show me where you have presented a case using actual evidence against Toog? Because when I read your posts, all I see is rhetoric and some stuff that doesn't make sense.

Stuff that IMO doesn't make sense, in no particular order:

It has to be Toog or jason, and Toog went a long way to convince me jason wasn't scum (to divert me onto Hiraki?). He was pretty much backed into a corner today: Rhinox & PeregrineV are both confirmed via actions, and he had already spent a day talking about why jason wasn't scum. He couldn't just backtrack now. So instead, he fires at me. He pretty much had no options left, it's a bold move.

Toog thinks jason is town, and recognizes that both me and PV are confirmed, so he votes you. Where's the bold move? Why is this something scum would do? It sounds like you've just described how a typical player, town or scum, would decide who to vote.

Toog is now completely doubting his town read on me? Over jason? It just doesn't add up.

I don't recall where Toog said he had a town read on you.

The fact is that SOMEONE WITHOUT NIGHT ACTIONS isn't THINKING ABOUT WHO IS CONFIRMED TOWN unless they're

TOWN

(SCUM?).

Your train of thought and your behavior does not come from a pro-town mindset.

I spent the night wondering which of me or PV were going to be killed, because we were both confirmed town. My first post of the day was written from my thoughts overnight, in which I note how both PV and I are confirmed. I'm confirmed town without a night action, and I'm thinking about who is confirmed town. So this argument is crap.

I haven't even read posts 900 and 901 yet, maybe there's something I'm missing in those posts?

[Rhinox]

More issues:

A Silent Wraith scumflip

confirms me as town by the way.

I would've told my scumteam what Toog was doing with his action last night and thus SW wouldn't have claimed he protected him.

Good to know.

>.>

This pretty much confirms me as town, and it also confirms Toogeloo & Amrun as town, really,

if Wraith flips scum. Unless there's a superbus going on from Toog or Amrun... (which I guess could be the whole WIFOM bit just like Toog just said) but honestly let's go on Occam's Razor here.

<.<

I don't think about who is confirmed only scum think about who is confirmed and look thats what toog was doing!

-.^

-----------------------------------------

I didn't even THINK about the fact Rhinox & PeregrineV were CONFIRMED by actions to be town. PV & I both said how we don't trust ANYONE

-- meanwhile, Toog clearly spent some time reflecting on who was confirmed and already had the whole thing thought out by the time the thread opened.

^.^

PV WAS confirmed via actions as

I TOLD him in the topic LAST NIGHT.

-.-

COGNITIVE DISONANNNNNNCCCEEEE

-----------------------------------------

Okay, cool then. Let's do it. 1v1. If I get lynched today, you don't get to worm your motherfucking way out of it.

And I still get the glory at the end of it all to laugh about how I called jason being scum from D1.

It's a win-win for me. Either you're scum and I locked myself into a 1v1 with scum, or you're [REDACTED] town and I called the actual scum on D1 when nobody else listened then got talked out of it by [REDACTED] town.

This is driving me nuts. You keep making comments about how you've been saying Jason is scum and demanding his head since day 1. Sounds like you should be arguing to lynch jason today. Instead you come out and attack Toog? Weren't you calling him confirmed town before? (see quotes above) Seems like your own accusations apply more to you:

He pretty much had no options left, it's a bold move.

[Rhinox]

D1.

Actually I was referring to today and your arguments for lynching toog. But I went through your iso and didn't really see the evidence your talking about in your D1 posts either, and later in the game you were calling toog pretty much confirmed.

Read yesterday. It wasn't that he was SURE Hiraki was the last scum. The way you're talking about him, he knows the two of you are confirmed, thinks jason is town, therefore it's either me or Hiraki... yet he spent all day yesterday saying how town I was and trying to convince me not to vote jason. When it came time to vote Hiraki, he was like "I think Hiraki is the lynch for today" not "HIRAKI = LAST SCUMMMMZ".

I don't see anywhere yesterday toog was saying how to you were "all day yesterday", reading through toog's iso. He did say these 2 things about you:

My biggest gut is Reck at the moment, mostly for suspicious and mostly trollish behavior.
<snip>
Reck targeting people who were the cause of lynches the day before seems like proper play for a Neighbor since he is most likely targeting town from a townie perspective. If he were scum, he would target the more dangerous powers that weren't in the mafia that looked even remotely pro-town I think. Also, after returning to my QT with Reck, something was said that suddenly

gives me the thought Reck "might" be town.

He asked me, "Why are you so convinced people think you're town? They don't." This isn't something a scum says to another player whom he intends to kill that night (which I still maintain was going to happen).

So he had a gut suspicion of you, but you said something to him that made him think you *might* be town. *MIGHT*. That is not "saying how town you are all day".

The thing is that you WEREN'T confirmed town... we had just had a lynch on a grey player, and even PV was suspected two scumteams of two in the QT last night, so there's no way you were confirmed town. From your perspective, yes, you know your alignment and you know PV is town. From my alignment, only PV was hardcore confirmed town. Because that's how a townie should think. After Nero flipped, THEN you were confirmed town to anyone who isn't YOU.

Right... I guess I kept getting the timeline messed up in my head. Regardless, there is no indication toog slipped that he *knew* anyone was confirmed town before night started. This is what he had to say about me and nero yesterday:

I think Nero's visit

probably

clears Rhinox. If Rhinox was scum, he probably would have sent the night kill,

assuming

only one scum left. If Nero is scum, he knows that targeting the only player without a night action is the safest play.

Gut

tells me that Nero is also town, only because if he were scum, he could have claimed any number of tracks as the last player to claim his action, so why clear someone as town with no result off of Rhinox?

Note the use of the keywords I bolded there. More importantly, why would scum want to identify cleared or "probably/possibly" cleared townies? And toog never said anything about PV being confirmed until today. In fact, it was you who first said that PV was likely town due to being blocked, and toog wasn't convinced and asked you if you were sure there was only 1 scum left. Then he was only using that same logic "assuming 1 scum left" to say I was *probably* town yesterday.

Reck, the accusations you are making are not backed up in the facts of what was actually said.

[Rhinox]

The bottom line is this, Rhinox: you're sitting here defending Toog without presenting why I'm suddenly scum.

Well the reason is that up until today, I didn't have a strong afinity for thinking you were scum. I think the way you're arguing to lynch toog today is coming from a scum motivation and I think my posts should reflect that.

Rhinox, you want to know why he did that? Because he has nothing left to go on.
He said I 'might' be town and that you are 'probably' town because if he makes firm commitments on things, he's fucked himself too early.

See I just can't believe that to be true because up until today you were calling toog confirmed town and that didn't stop you from reversing that today.

If anything, I feel like you were the one backed into a corner. Your only suspect left was jason, so even if you got him lynched today, you'd have nothing left to fall back on tomorrow when its just you, toog, and me or PV. But if you somehow got toog lynched today you could be all OMG I WAS RIGHT ABOUT JASON ALL ALONG and expect no one to vote you over jason.

Because considering all the comments you've been making today about how you've known all game jason was scum, if you were town THATS where your vote would be. Thats the reason why I'm not voting toog today and why I'm thinking I'm going to be voting you.

[Rhinox]

Toog cut the condescending crap. I did set v/la afterall. Reason is cuz i just had a wisdom tooth yanked out yesterday. I'll post more when i can and you'll just have to deal with it. To say i have a lack of interest or dont care is bullshit.

P.s. i never said i would govern you although i may have implied it. That statement was to test recks reaction to see if he would give up on trying to lynch you today.

[Rhinox]

Jason and toog are both L-1 it seems.

This is a very good point:

with 1 scum left, what reason would I have as scum, to hold off lynching Reck? I could have easily hammered him and took it to night looking to lynch you tomorrow after your 1vs1 knowing both would flip town and I would win as scum.

Which is why I'm probably going to hammer toog and if toog isn't scum reck is getting lynched tomorrow.

Anyone have anything else to say before hammer?

[Rhinox]

I will wait to see if PV has anything to say.

[Rhinox]

I don't think jason is scum.

I don't think toog is scum.

I think reck was all to happy to accept a "PV is not confirmed town" theory. I think Reck's argument to vote lynch toog has been bad and I think town reck should have been lynching Jason today based on things he's been saying. I think his guns blazing approach against toog was to manufacture another potential lynch choice because him and Jason were all that was left before today.

But then I don't like how toog gave up on reck and switched his vote to Jason. Like, maybe he got the idea that if jason was lynched he'd be able to get Reck lynched tomorrow. Idk... bah this sucks, I really don't expect hammering toog has the best chance of winning the game...

PV, Jason isn't getting lynched today. You don't have to switch your vote right now, I just wanna know, between Reck and Toog, who's more likely scum?

[Rhinox]

vote: reck

Jason, PV, Toog make this happen

[Rhinox]

Its already a crap shoot.

[Rhinox]

Disappointing end, but I think PV (and his team) could probably count this as a win. Had jason actually been governed, reck or toog would have been lynched, and then the likely scenario is either jason or the other of reck and toog getting lynched tomorrow, with jason using his vengeful on the reck/toog survivor if lynched in lylo.

I don't see how PV is scum. 2 scum teams of 2 + hiraki SK? Were they 2 indoctrinated groups? Because if not the flavor after hiraki's death might be kinda bastardly.

I enjoyed the game, twas fun, great flavor, great setup, would play again (mass effect 2 mafia pre-/in yes?)

[Rhinox]

wait then how was there a kill the night you were blocked?

[Rhinox]

pedit- that was Hiraki.

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhh....... i see...

[Rhinox]

I'm standing by my actions. I've never heard of abilities that could be used in twilight, especially seeing how there was no set time for twilight, and using a governor ability after the lynch has already happened doesn't sit right with me. Although I should've read the role PMs more closely.

ummm... I'm not mad about what happened, because we're all only human, but this annoys me quite a bit. Don't you dare act like you didn't do anything wrong...

[Rhinox]

Rhinox had the whole day to govern someone, ninjaing the mod isn't part of the game.

DON'T YOU DARE.

Ability:

-

This is an outrage

(1 use):

Once in the game you may pardon someone who has already been lynched.

They may not be lynched for the remainder of that day.

You must have this action submitted before the Lynch scene is posted

, for once a person is dead, there is no going back. It is up to you to get your action in on time; you may even pre-submit it if you want. If you have any questions as to the possibilities or limitations of this ability, quote this PM and ask us directly.

Once in the game you may pardon someone

who has already been lynched.

You must have this action submitted

before the Lynch scene is posted

That explicitly states that there needs to be a lynch before I can pardon someone, and it doesn't say anything about submitting before a lynch occurs, it explicitly says before the scene is posted. It clearly says that because of the first line which states that I can pardon someone WHO HAS ALREADY BEEN LYNCHED. Whether or not I could pre-submit is irrelevant. I submitted the action in accordance with the instructions I was given in the role PM. Don't you dare say its my fault for not submitting earlier in the day. Its bad enough you're blaming the other mod

s

for mechanics you didn't read, know, and understand.

[Rhinox]

Disappointing end, but I think PV (and his team) could probably count this as a win. Had jason actually been governed, reck or toog would have been lynched, and then the likely scenario is either jason or the other of reck and toog getting lynched tomorrow, with jason using his vengeful on the reck/toog survivor if lynched in lylo.

I don't see how PV is scum. 2 scum teams of 2 + hiraki SK? Were they 2 indoctrinated groups? Because if not the flavor after hiraki's death might be kinda bastardly.

I enjoyed the game, twas fun, great flavor, great setup, would play again (mass effect 2 mafia pre-/in yes?)

I was definitely hoping that was how it would go down. You were my next target because I couldn't chance the governor coming out near the end. But since you were using it on Jason, I would have to rethink some things.

pedit- that was Hiraki.

Well here's the issue - had you left me alive, governor shot left or no, that would have been a mistake because scum aren't going to leave 2 "confirmed" town alive in lylo. Its suicide. You can't even wifom it, because you can't argue a "confirmed" town is scum. So I would have at least realized you weren't confirmed at that point.

[Rhinox]

thought Rinox was town too but I did vote for him later b/c his play was so horrible

What was so horrible again?