The Brave and the Beautiful 2: Fairy Tales ÔÇô Game Over

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VOTE: havingfitz

The only player I don't know.

As some of you may know, I have USMLE boards on Tuesday, so I won't be as active the first few days and will then catch up on Tuesday or Wednesday of next week.

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Thanks. I'm been studying since early May. O_O

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I really wanted to type a certain thing as I won DW, so I will do it now, instead:

BENEVOLENCE~!

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I think the more significant problem is that the Mod still apparently doesn't exist.

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HMMM

Vote: Fate

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Nah, I voted Fate because I think he's somewhat more likely to be scum than kunk, and I don't really think fitz is scum. Need to see more from him before I comment further.

P-edit: lol

The reason I voted Fate was that his early posts are focused on discrediting players rather than legitimately prodding people about game-related things. Having played scum with Fate many times (and town Fate), this is something I've noticed.

I think it is a little bizarre if Ooba thinks that scum doesn't want to fake-bus on irrelevant early wagons. It's probably a little bit more bizarre that Fate didn't reflect very critically on that, though (i.e. he'd normally mentally reflect, comment minimally if at all, then do his thing).

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Upon further reflection:

I love Fate with all my heart and would never ever vote him like that in a million years as scum (possible exception being that we were scum together, which is not the case this game) for a couple of reasons:

1. I am an expert at keeping Fate from lynching me. Refer to SE3 where I did this as town and Inception where I did this as scum.

(Corollary to 1: The best way to keep Fate from lynching you is to sheep him, not vote him. This is also the best way to lynch him late game, if you must, though this is pretty theoretical, I think. I suppose it kinda happened in MetaMafia, but there were extenuating circumstances there.)

2. I like playing with Fate and err on the side of doing so where it's possible.

3. I don't like the stress of driving the ship as scum, so I prefer to keep a handful of (wrong) competent town players in the running so that they can win the game on my behalf. Refer to Kdub's SE Gaiden game for a recent example of that, though it didn't work out quite as intended because we kept being vigged. (We did eventually shoot Fate N3 IIRC, but it was because of his "awesome PR" highlighting and our strongman kill.)

So Fate is too friendly to me AND risky and too much my boyfriend and too potentially useful for me to push as scum early on, unless there were extenuating circumstances, etc.

/self-meta

Irrelevant self-meta IFF you think my vote for Fate was actually random-given-non-kunk (as per ooba's stated inference) AFAIK.

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I think the link ooba presented is unusually facile relative to what he usually comes up with. I mean, it's valid, if not sound, but I would expect something more sophisticated from him one way or another. Not sure I've ever played with ooba scum, though.

I have the same impression as you re: LLD's post, but I think she may've done something similar as town in [REDACTED]. It's also weird that she totally ignores what I just posted. Moreover, her "attack" on Ooba looks made-up...the scummy part isn't "calling scumteams" per se IMO, but using uncharacteristic methods to deduce them.

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Well, no you didn't say it at all, as your explanation itself demonstrates. At best (and that "best" is not out of the question, obviously), you implied it. But it's weird to me that you didn't say that explicitly and instead came up with, like "Ooba is not being Lawful!"-type reasons for his being scum rather than "Ooba is not being Town!"-type frames.

In other words, I think the town thought process looks for why someone's motives are odd, but the scum one looks for categorical flaws in someone's play. You framed Ooba's post in the latter fashion. This implies that you were somewhat more likely to have evaluated his play from the latter perspective.

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You are using an overbroad interpretation of "categorical flaws" that would basically make all scumhunting incriminating. For the sake of clarification, the difference between what I did and what you did is that I made clear the scum motivations in your behavior whereas you merely pointed out that Ooba had been behaving badly. You can claim that you implied the rest, and you may well have, but you can't (or shouldn't, IMO) fault me for taking issue with your rhetoric -- at least not in that regard. I'm not going to just infer that every post I read has a town intent. That is bizarre.

P-edit: I don't think Robo is scum. Regardless of whether they are accurate, I think his post ninja'd some of the concerns I had with yours, so I think they come from a town PoV.

Please clarify if you think I am missing something significant.

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I am still cross with you, Fate. But I can be swayed with snuggles.

P-Edit: Why do you think I'm intelligent? I don't think I've ever played with you directly...? O.o

I of course understand that it is possible that you are town, but that isn't very helpful to me in evaluating your alignment, because I already knew that.

I am wary that LLD suddenly wants to make friends. And Fate, to a lesser extent. <_<

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@ Kdub -- Huh? I still think my reasons for a Fate vote are valid; I don't think anything has changed that. Fate even accepted their validity in his comeback post:

My first posts were weak because I'm here with 15 other scummers playing actual mafia in a place I've never been before.

I'm in fact still voting Fate, though I think his explanation is both honest and plausible (i.e. he doesn't pretend that I'm making shit up, and his explanation reasonably explains the discrepancy I noticed).

Also, I think it is CRAAAAZY that you of all people would accuse me of fence-sitting. I mean, sure, I was scum in the game you modded, but COME ON. You know full-well that you are making that up. Also, this:

He's fence-sitting on LL by agreeing with Robo but qualifying it with a "she may have done this as town..." statement.

Is a little twist-y. LLD took issue with my point against her by continually going BUT I COULD BE TOWN! YOU DON'T KNOW I'M NOT TOWN 100%! to which I ultimately responded with this (after she'd made the same I COULD BE TOWN argument about 3 times):

I of course understand that it is possible that you are town, but that isn't very helpful to me in evaluating your alignment, because I already knew that.

The clear meaning of which is IMO obviously "hence, stop making statements that are of no use to anyone" rather than "I THINK YOU ARE TOWN MAYBE LOL."

I included Fate in friendship wariness for completeness. LLD's is weirder because she's never played with me. Fate and I have friends like this in the past. This is feeling a little like SE3 atm. (Or was it SEIV? Can't recall.)

My hesitancy with LLD's alignment (NOT her play per se) relates to her play in [REDACTED], which I need to review before I can make up my mind. It's my only prior acquaintance with her, and I remember her play being slightly screwy.

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@ SX -- Which of these are you WHAAAAAAAAAT-ing (?):

1. Why is Iec posting so much when he should be learning to be a doctor so that he does not pay another $500 to take this test later?

2. Why is Iec self-meta-ing with wallposts? That is morally wrong!

3. Why is Iec self-meta-ing with wallposts? OMG SCUMZ!?

Please tell me I want to know.

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1. I self-meta aggressively and transparently as both town and scum. I also never lie when I self-meta (or haven't yet, at least), so I'd venture that it's a slight town-tell for me if I were to guess.

2. When I'm town, I think the process of reflection that occurs when I self-meta helps me to become more aware of the differences between scum and town analysis patterns, albeit by cross-supplying my own playstyle. (My feelings about LLD's response are an example of this from this particular game.) I think this helps me to get into the game. So I think self-meta helps me personally.

3. Also, I think I sometimes come up with independently compelling arguments through self-meta. I think the big post I made earlier today is one such example. I think the ONLY way I would vote for Fate as I did as scum was a) because it was random-y, which is objectively unlikely because Fate is a bad target for that or b) if this is all a devious conspiracy, which is similarly unlikely and unnecessarily high-risk IMO. So I think self-meta can also sometimes help the other players in the game if I get lucky in the course of my introspection.

The explanation for voting Fate came before the self-meta post. I answered that separately. It was only after that that I reflected a little and realized (fortuitously!) that I would NEVER have made such a vote as scum, so I made a separate post explaining why.

P-edit: No idea why the hell kunk is voting me. Maybe he doesn't even know?

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SX, other than meta things (because those tentatively make sense to me, even if Amrun disagrees), why is LLD town?

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Ooba needs to post.

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I have never played with scumOoba. All I know is that this one posts funny. I want more posts for more information.

Be patient. <3

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@ Amrun -- I already asked her that because I thought the hesitancy to call me dumb might reflect a belief that my wagon would lose steam s/p my long posts and hoping that I would be in a position to save her from the brink when the building focus on her climaxed, etc. (cf. "Why do you suddenly want to be friends?")

She said it was politeness rather than friendship as friendship has no place in mafia, etc.

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So you voted Fate for a meta reason, he gives a response that you claim to think is reasonable and honest, and you still think your reason is valid?

You do not seem to know what valid means OR you are assuming I am using the word valid in a non-standard way.

Valid means that, given that the premises are accurate, the conclusion is correct. It means that the argument is well-constructed (NOT that it is necessarily accurate). This is different from accuracy/soundness, which also assumes that all the premises are also correct.

My point was that you claimed that I "backed off" of "giving reasons for [my] Fate vote," whereas I stand by the reasons for the vote 100%, think they were good, etc., and even Fate (implicitly) does not contest them (i.e. because his response was YEAH SORRY MAN I'M JUST HANGIN WIT DGB).

If the premise "Fate did this because he is scum" is inaccurate because really "Fate did this because he is hangin wit DGB," the argument is no longer sound, but it remains valid.

Relevance is a little technical, I guess. Mainly I was proud of my Fate vote when Ooba wanted kunk.

~~~~~

I am accusing you of fence-sitting because you have posted a lot in terms of volume, but I still can't tell what your actual opinions are. You are making statements about Fate and LL's actions, but your overall conclusion is "I'm not sure"

My actual opinions at this point are that I think ooba, LLD, and you are sketchy. I have specific opinions about Ooba, but I think he should post what his feelings are up to this point before I put words into his mouth. For LLD I can refer back to her meta after my exam.

As for you, I think your reasons for voting me were pretty iffy. Namely, red flags go off when anyone who should know better accuses me of fence-sitting, because I never shy away from champion fence-sitting. Your claim that I have nonspecific roughly equivalent suspicion of both LLD and Fate seems made-up, too, since I specifically indicated that it was NOT equivalent:

I am wary that LLD suddenly wants to make friends. And Fate, to a lesser extent. <_<

I may or may not have things for other players -- namely, I could SWEAR that SX has been in a game with me where I self-meta'd and we had a similar discussion...maybe Of Gods And Men? -- but they're peripheral right now.

However, many players have not really played the game yet, so I think it's too early to tunnel.

~~~~~

And you don't seem to be doing much in terms of questioning or pressuring [LLD or Fate] to find out more.

This is half made-up. I've had a back-and-forth with/re: LLD already. I'm pretty satisfied for now (she basically just kept saying BUT I COULD ALSO BE TOWN, which is not very helpful, so I didn't see much point in continuing) except for needing to read that game I mentioned again, but that's all.

Fate's explanation for his early play satisfies me and I don't need to hear any more about it.

I want to hear from Ooba, who is next on my list.

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Actually, yeah. SX was the worship-warper in Of Gods And Men, and I think I remember an event mid-D1 with /self-meta moments with ABR and SX and Fate that Troll had to moderate, etc.

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So I'm still unclear. Do you think I'm scummy for /self-metaing, or just ill-behaved? If the former, why do you think it is scummy for me to do it?

I am asking this because earlier you said that all of #1-3 were true, implying the former, but now you're like "I can SEE what you were doing from your response," which seems different from that.

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Thanks, that clarifies.

I have never intentionally manipulated my meta in my life in the way you intimate is likely given use of /self-meta. The closest thing to that is that in the past when I was in a large number of games I used to self-consciously force myself to use a rhetorical device I'd used in one game in another game within a day or so as a means of keeping my playstyle as neutralized as possible. But that doesn't apply now that I'm not in lots of games, and the fact that the vote was motivated by Ooba's shift to serious voting makes it objectively unlikely that an outside game motivated my move, anyway.

I do sometimes lie by omission with /self-meta as scum -- for example, I might indicate something accurate about my meta in response to something someone says, but fail to point out why it wouldn't apply in the present circumstance because of extenuating circumstances, etc. But I have never outright made something up.

I posted it because I know that I would NEVER have voted Fate in those circumstances as scum. It would be anti-scum given that I was scum (unless I was scum with Fate). I do not vacillate at all when I self-reflect on this. I think players may read my post and, if they feel the same way, come to the conclusion that I either planned all of that (which IMO is bullshit, because it's just begging for policy-type punishment) or I am town.

I think /self-meta can be useful when it can be established that the other half of the WIFOM is sufficiently more anti-scum.

Given that you have personal awareness that I am a total wimp as scum, I am a little surprised at your indifference with regard to how that post should be interpreted.

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@Iece: "My actual opinions at this point are that I think ooba, LLD, and you are sketchy."
You think LLD is scum with me after that kind of outburst?

I thought some of the rhetoric in her rage post might have been OK NOW WE ARE DISTANCING-type made-up talk. For example, her saying "calling scumteams on day 2" rather than a more scum motivations-type claim makes it easy for you to claim "i value the early scumtell" or "lolreactions" afterwards to resolve the distancing and proceed with another lynch. This crossed my mind because I thought her rhetoric really was THAT bad.

Lingering mysteries:

1. I have no idea why Ooba thought kunk was scum early on or now. Was it for his RVS vote? For his weird/mistaken vote for me?

2. I don't know why Fate thought Ooba was town prior to this return.

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1. That was premature.

2. HMMMMMMMMM sounds made-up/deficient.

3. But nice job making it high risk/reward, I guess.

Still waiting on ooba re: kunk and the rest of the game to come.

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1. Half the game isn't even here yet and it's page 6. It was premature.

2. No.

3. Reference to Fate's post above after your (accidental?) Jester softclaim.

P-edit: I do not understand what SX is saying. That I am scum waiting for the opportunity to join the LLD wagon?

Were I to switch, I'd switch to SX because I don't want to put LLD at L-1 when I clearly want other stuff to happen today, but I don't think the distraction is warranted.

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That is a wild distortion.

I am happy with the LLD wagon. I want commentary at this moment, not the n+1th moment.

P-edit LOLWTF Kdub. Here are the things just on the previous page I have said I want to happen:

Lingering mysteries:

1. I have no idea why Ooba thought kunk was scum early on or now. Was it for his RVS vote? For his weird/mistaken vote for me?

2. I don't know why Fate thought Ooba was town prior to this return. [this one Fate responded to]

Still waiting on ooba re: kunk and the rest of the game to come.

My posts are not hard to read.

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1. That is correct. I do not want the day to end for, namely, the reasons clearly quoted above, so I will not put you at L-1. No idea why you find this scummy.

This is another example of "categorical flaws" vs. "scum motivations"-type scumhunting. I'm scummy for violating someone's feelings about how a vote should be used. Town would take context and the players themselves into account.

2. I have not been advocating a neutral position; I have found you scummy. The fact that I acknowledge that it is possible that you could be town expressing yourself poorly (as in almost any D1 circumstance) does not constitute a "neutral position;" it is simply acknowledging the obvious.

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Please clarify; you appear to be ok with an LLD lynch DESPITE her investigative PR claim, provided that we take time to look at other players. Is that correct?

More correct to say that I think she is scum despite her investigative PR claim.

I want her dead, BUT not necessarily today, and I am open to other lynches.

I need to go over the old B&B game and [REDACTED] before I come to any definite conclusions, not to mention hearing from those who aren't here.

I acknowledge that it is normative to lynch someone who isn't LLD given her claim.

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Unvote

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See, here's the thing.

I have a HARD TIME believing that both of LLD's scumfriends would come to her defense rather than bus (though Ythill's team did pull something like this D1 in [REDACTED]).

I have a HARD TIME believing that SX and Kdub would be this obvious (but see above).

I have a HARD TIME believing that SX and Kdub are town (no reference necessary).

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THOUGH it is wrong to try to connect all three dots, so nevermind.

Anyway, wheels are spinnin until our friends come.

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You have been scummy in my worldview for awhile. I was at first evaluating the extent to which you may just have moral problems with /self-meta that affected your reads. I resolved that confusion at this point:

Given that you have personal awareness that I am a total wimp as scum, I am a little surprised at your indifference with regard to how that post should be interpreted.

I'm referring to your inside knowledge of the scum QT in DW mafia here.

More recently, you were most transparently scum in my worldview here:

Were I to switch, I'd switch to SX because I don't want to put LLD at L-1 when I clearly want other stuff to happen today, but I don't think the distraction is warranted.

I already addressed your Also:'d quote. Hint: it's the post that starts with "That is a wild distortion."

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@ LLD -- No, I'm referring to bv and ABR and fitz and those people.

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Err, quote-fail there. Those should both be Iec quotes. I'm at sapo's house atm.

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Self-meta is self-meta is worthless.

Self-meta is the best thing ever if you get lucky and happen to have legitimately done something highly discriminating.

However, if you want to argue "I'm a wimp as scum" you spent two large posts defending a singular vote under the "Look, I can't be scum because of it."

This is incorrect. I made 1 post explaining the basis for the vote (which the vote target acknowledged), then a separate post where I recognized that I would never have made said vote as scum.

As scum, I think I would've followed Ooba onto kunk, even if I had been scum with kunk, because early wagons on scumfriends are the best time to do it OR supporting confident wrong people is my preferred playstyle as scum.

You absolutely laid the groundwork for going onto LLD but didn't because its "too soon" while being fine with it existing. You had up until this page a vote parked for all intents and purposes on Fate and said you'd vote for ME instead of one of the ones you'd clearly said were "sketchy"

As stated (well, implied) above, I need you to stipulate why you think this is scummy. What does the wily /self-meta-manipulating-Fate-vote-gambiter have up his sleeve now?

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SX's post is basically a long way of saying "No" to my request that he explain why something he says I did would be implicitly scummy, so that's enough there.

Kdub is REALLY reaching for ways to say mean things about me.

Also, it is CRAZY to me that first SX and now Kdub pulls this whole WHAT YOU THINK I AM "SUDDENLY" SCUM HUH faux-shock thing. O_o

You can go back I think like 1-2 posts for why I think SX is scum, because he also just asked me to explain why moments ago. You can go back to my conversation WITH YOU not long before that for why I think you're scummy. (Summary of the later IIRC: you are a crazy person.)

@ fitz -- You posted yesterday, yes, but you hadn't been here to comment on the important events that happened later last night. I wanted all the relevant people on the record. THOUGH, if you must know, the reason you're at the end there is that I added you as an afterthought.

(There's not a scummy-lurkers subtext intended...if you're inferring one...)

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ATTN: People who are not SX and Kdub.

Is the fact that I am "suddenly" suspicious of SX and/or Kdub mysterious to any of you?

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LATTER*

I CANNOT SPELL WHEN FLABBERGASTED.**

** ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF MY CLEVER META MANIPULATION MACHINATIONS!!!

P-edit: Did you say he was making stuff up somewhere? Echoing was not intentional. I just thought it was lame that he was just now like YOU WANT OOBA TO EXPLAIN VOTING KUNK; ERGO, YOU ARE NOT SCUMHUNTING.

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Also Kdub plz add 1 avatar. <3

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This game already has too many scummy players when some of us aren't here. I am probably wrong about at least one of you. This is the main theme of that post Kdub selectively quoted from earlier that had capitalization.

I think the day before USMLE boards is the wrong day for me to push a unilateral crusade on someone. I also very rarely do that as town in general.

/self-meta

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I am a little hurt that SpyreX apparently does not know the content of my heart.

I need to get up early for the test tomorrow, so this is my last post of the night. Until tomorrow afternoon!

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I think the day before USMLE boards is the wrong day for me to push a unilateral crusade on someone. I also very rarely do that as town in general.

Iec...are you saying you are unilaterally pushing a crusade on someone ATM (Kdub?) and that you rarely do that as town? If so...isn't that like a self-meta admission of being scum

VOTE: Iecerint

...No?

This is what happened:

Iec: I think some players are scum, etc.
SX: OMG WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTING ME YOU ARE PERHAPS SCUM HMMM ALSO SELF-META ERGO SCUM.
Iec: Now is not the time for Iec-crusades because I am busy s/p boards. This is why there is no crusade. Also I am more of a crusader as scum /self-meta lol
SX: FINE I WILL BE WAITING FROM MY MOON PALACE.
SX: (*dies*)

Is that why you voted me?

ALSO: BOARDS ARE OVER NOW YAYAYAYAYAY.

BUT I AM STEALING SAPO'S COMPUTER FROM HER ATM SO I WILL WRITE MORE LATER ON. <3

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I still don't think scum would have a daykill ability (if anyone has links to games this has occurred I would like to peruse them)

They had one in this game, though it was also a UPick, so ye know.

I think the daykill is from a serial killer if it's from scum, especially since B&B1 didn't have one and RC apparently likes them (RC recently posted about the upcoming Harry Potter game NOT featuring multiple SKs in one of the RC drama threads in response to claims that RC<3SK-type stuff would mess with the balance, etc).

Meh, Iec vote was not posting carefully, but can't really prove it either way, and any other excuses explanations are pointless as well.

Whose?

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/outguess

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I voted Fate because I think he's somewhat more likely to be scum than kunk,

When you made this comment both Fate and kunk had only made one post. What were you basing their respective/comparative prospects of being scum on?

I'm pretty sure I explained why I thought Fate was scum in the first post after he voted me. It's in the p-edit...ACTUALLY, I explain it in [caps]literally the same post you just quoted from[/caps]:

I voted Fate because I think he's somewhat more likely to be scum than kunk, and I don't really think fitz is scum. Need to see more from him before I comment further.

P-edit: lol

The reason I voted Fate was that his early posts are focused on discrediting players rather than legitimately prodding people about game-related things. Having played scum with Fate many times (and town Fate), this is something I've noticed.

Bold added. I can add that I did think that kunk's RVS vote was slightly scummy as RVS votes go (which is what I assumed ooba was picking up on), but I thought Fate's situation unambiguously trumped that.

I don't like the stress of driving the ship as scum, so I prefer to keep a handful of (wrong) competent town players in the running so that they can win the game on my behalf.

Would you classify your absence of a vote while voicing suspicions towards several players as NOT driving the ship?

Fair point, though it doesn't speak to the Fate vote situation in particular. That said, I felt more like a ship-driver than I thought I would have time to be the first few days.

Post 49 - you agree with robo's (and therefore I would assume with the 2-3 other players who voted LLd for the same reasons as robo) suspicions towards LLd but never vote her or even FoS her.

Don't see the problem. She had plenty of votes. Also, I think she also said really bizarre reactionary things like that as town in [REDACTED]. I think players accused her of making some kind of assumption and she threw a fit.

A fair amount of buddying with Fate (Posts 46 & 63). Ironic that in one of the posts (post 63) where Iec IMO is buddying Fate that Iec states LLd and to a somewhat lesser degree Fate are trying to make friends (which I did not notice).

You are misinterpreting my statement. My point is that whereas both LLD and Fate had prior said mean things to ME, they both shifted and wanted to be friends with me around the same time. I did not intend to imply that they were trying to be friends with one another.

I do not deny that I am buddying Fate. It's null, though. I do this in every game I play with Fate as either alignment UNLESS I decide that he may be scum and I am town (which is basically a summary of the /self-meta post from early on).

You unvote Fate in post 164 without giving any reasons (is he no longer scummy to you) and you fail to place your vote on anyone else, even though you are happy with the LLd wagon (even post-claim) and you had stated "Were I to switch, I'd switch to SX because I don't want to put LLD at L-1." So why no vote? Why not vote SpyreX or who I assume is/was your other suspect, Kdub.

Fate had not really been scummy to me in a long time, no; certainly not the scummiest. This should not be a surprise to you in that I'd already stated at least 2 times that I thought his "@ goofbash ergo bad first few posts" excuse was valid. I didn't revote because I wasn't ready to revote yet.

THOUGH while accurate that doesn't really explain why I unvoted per se. The real reason I unvoted tbh is that I was annoyed at SX making fun of me for still voting Fate. ^^;

If I'm following your trail of suspicion correctly (please let me know if I am wrong) you are most suspicious of (in no particular order) Fate,

SpyreX

, Kdub, and at some point later on LLd (despite being as I mentioned...happy with her wagon).

I think I'm most suspicious of Kdub and LLD right now. I am not particularly suspicious of Fate. I am not ready to vote.

Anyway, wheels are spinnin until our friends come.

When I ISO'd you this came across as an attempt to slow things down a bit since no progress was going to be made while waiting on absent players. At this point I think the game was moving at a pretty good pace and stating things were going nowhere just stikes an odd chord for me. Especially at a time when SpyreX was putting heat on you.

I felt like I was basically multiposting the same thing over and over. I was summarizing my earlier posts instead of adding new information to the thread. SX's "heat" on me was basically that + a religious dispute about /self-meta.

It's probably also true that I was kind of wanting the ability to babysit the thread less, though, because I had the most important test of my life in a few days BUT frankly I think it was more the former because I posted a gazillion times in this thread in spite of it.

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Iec, what is your opinion now on LL and me in light of SpyreX's flip?

Has not significantly changed.

In fact, though it's kinda empty now, I was leaning you slightly as the scum between the two of you because your posts had this "SX and I are twin crusaders" element a few times that I don't think SX ever really echoed, and that seemed off.

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I guess it was just once. This is the quote that stuck out for me:

I think this is the first time in this game where you have outright declared suspicions without qualifications. Why exactly are you calling me/SpyreX scum suddenly? Because we disagree with you?

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Also, I'm headed to the lake today, where there is literally limited access. But I'll still try to post at least once per day or so.

Then I leave for China Monday, which will be an adventure.

Boards being over is fun. <3

[Iecerint]

It is only vT in that first bit where I am annoyed that he only read half of one of my posts. The rest is (I think) a T&T wall.

Mine, at least.

[Iecerint]

What are you twitching at?

My point was that it was not a wall where I yelled mean things at fitz; rather, it was a wall where I addressed fitz's concerns (which mostly do not seem made-up).

[Iecerint]

1. I don't know what your point is in the first one. I voted Fate because his early play was scummiest. I said this a long time ago and it should not be mysterious.

2. In context, the thing you've quoted is about my introspection that I would not have made that Fate vote because I want him to steer the ship for me when I'm scum and I can usually make friends with him successfully in the early game regardless of my alignment. *Your* point about ship-steering is unrelated to that original context, so I wanted to make that clear.

3. I didn't check the continuity of when you quoted from or follow your hyperlink or anything; sorry. Early on, I wasn't sure because of meta considerations (as I think I mention in those early posts) and moved to clarify some things until I had time to check the meta. Later, that point remained AND she picked up votes AND I also had other suspects AND I was busy with boards and didn't have time to build a proper case.

I am aware that I have still not reread said game; I'll try to get to it soon.

4. I don't think making friends is a scumtell, though I used to a year or so ago. Rather, I think that coalition-building is an excellent town tactic. I think I first changed my opinion on this issue in Lay of Leithian where it was used against my scumteam.

5. Your inferences about how I use my vote have been incorrect. After my vote is placed, I do not necessarily mess with it again until I've had time to make a decision and so on. You have to look at my text to get an idea of how my mind is being made-up in the interim.

6. Your chart is incorrect because townIec assumes that Fate is town until he perceives evidence to the contrary. So those should *all* read "buddying." This game I perceived scumFate early on, and moved to UNbuddy him. This is the towntell I highlighted early on.

7. I think she is not Ariel and she is scum, but I agree that it's probably better to lynch someone else D1. I do suspect that at least one scum has a tracker and/or watcher ability if she is scum, though.

[Iecerint]

Was not my intent. I did have a kind of annoyed taste in my mouth when I saw that he could have answered his first question just by reading the rest of the thread. Town reads doing that kind of thing annoys me, especially because I caught scum in [REDACTED] via a riff off of that (but the context, etc. were a little different than here). So that's probably what you're picking up on.

[Iecerint]

Hi guys!

So I'm back from the lake BUT a boy came over and is cooking me dinner at 11:30 PM.

SO I WILL CATCH BACK UP TOMORROW.

I will state that I am surprised that Kdub made the post that he made. I would not have expected scum to abandon me as the counterwagon. I need to read properly and things.

[Iecerint]

@ fitz:

3. The original reason wasn't "disproved;" I had the chronology mixed up. It is accurate that LLD's existing votes contributed to keeping me from voting her at certain times.

5. Yes

6. When Fate decided to apologize for his early play rather than discredit me with sketchy logic, my read on him changed very quickly. I think scumFate is very concerned with leading the early game -- even more than townFate -- and I didn't think he would discredit himself that way as scum.

Re: buddying in the fitz/Kdub exchange -- the difference is that it is normal for Fate-Iec to buddy (as my post that you think is a scumclaim for reasons that don't make sense AFAICT shows), but I think it was weird for LLD based on my limiting experience with her. If ever, you should buddy people you think are town; not people who you think might be on the fence about lynching you. The former builds a bloc that intimidates scum if it's done properly; the latter is just self-preservation.

-He [Kdub] wagons kunk, saying, "I'll bite," implying he thinks ooba has a reason, but then later indicates he knew ooba wasn't serious about kunkstar.

This is a good point.

Re: Kast's list -- Looks OK, but I think Robocopter town. What playstyle differences are you talking about? Also, could you tell me why kunk is scum?

[Iecerint]

Given the other content in his post where he voted for me, I think he definitely intended to vote for someone else; it all referred specifically to things another player had done and not to things I had done. Suppose this doesn't affect your "counter-to-LLD" point, though.

I agree that kunk is not particularly protown, though I've only played with kunkscum (SA2) and am mentally/perhaps inappropriately filing his behavior under "similar to always" so far.

Explanation on Robo is OK.

[Iecerint]

When was RC's other "resolves same night" PR?

[Iecerint]

I suppose that does naturally follow from your analysis of the old game...

I can think of exactly 2 good reasons to massclaim. The reasons not to are "just" the normal ones.

It's worth noting that some of the scrutiny RC's modding received recently may mean that this game has a different kind of set-up.

[Iecerint]

I can FINALLY look at [REDACTED] after I finish catching up in [REDACTED].

[Iecerint]

OK, having glanced through [REDACTED], I retract my prior claim that LLD's behavior might be explain-away-able with meta. It does not apply.

[Iecerint]

Unvote; Vote: kunkstar

That's L-1.

[Iecerint]

Robo doesn't seem like a weird kill to me, really. I don't think anyone expressed any suspicion of him except LLD.

I am surprised that Kdub's claimed action, assuming it resolved successfully, would not allow LLD to use her ability (since it would in effect delay night by a certain amount of time)...

Do not understand why Fate thinks Kast has been PoE'd...

[Iecerint]

Hmmmmmm I hadn't factored in the the possibility that they might have tried to accomodate LLD's ability...that's a good point...

[Iecerint]

The fact that LL had to be corrected on this makes me think she's telling the truth.

?

Went through Blackest night Mafia. Like Kdub said, both Redirector and Roleblocker appear higher on the resolution list.

?

Bv being scum would not surprise me.

[Iecerint]

Ah, OK. Makes sense.

[Iecerint]

Because I'm only indirectly answering your question?

[Iecerint]

My main thought is that I am extremely frustrated by the situation with LLD. I find this LOL I MESSED UP SENDING IN ACTIONS HAHAHA angle incredibly hard to believe, not to mention the added discrepancy of the Kdub's ability not affecting anything. I was actually kind of O_Oing at why we weren't going down that angle until you pointed out that Robo's death was consistent with trying to avoid a Watch target, which tends to suggest that LLD is town unless she is scum with you.

SO that's where I am.

I suppose there are a few more people who may have thoughts to give.

[Iecerint]

Ooba said that the unblockable angle would've only applied in the event of a contradictory situation. Is he incorrect?

[Iecerint]

OK, I understand.

Regarding the function of your ability, which of these does the language imply:

A) If a player uses an ability on the night you target them, they may use that ability again that night
B) If a player uses an ability on the night you target them, they may use a second ability that night.
C) If you target a player who has an ability, they may use another ability that night.

Trying to evaluate whether a certain remote possibility is possible.

[Iecerint]

I would say A is the closest. It says (paraphrasing) they may perform an action twice. The language does not imply anything about using "another" ability.

Based on what you've said, I think the only way LLD can be town is if RC has changed the mechanic to work such that there are "2 halves" of Night such that the second one comes into play if an ability like yours makes it necessary. But even given that, it seems like LLD would have been able to use her ability at least once UNLESS your ability only activates if an action is used successfully in the first half.

Does that make sense?

[Iecerint]

Maybe that lets you ask RC a more specific question? To me, there are ways to just get clarification about the actual function/processing of your role itself without asking about the present situation, so you should be able to get some information....

[Iecerint]

I'd like to see if we can nail down Kdub's ability a little more so as to possibly remove some residual ambiguity first.

[Iecerint]

You don't have to ask about resolution at all; you can just ask about what your ability DOES. As in, does the target have to use an action that night for your ability to have an effect: y/n.

Common sense based on what you've already told us would be "no," but "yes" is the only way that LLD can be town AFAICT.

[Iecerint]

It is true that there are imaginable universes where you are not auto-scum. I am trying to evaluate one such universe with Kdub as we speak.

It is not true that the existence of at least one such universe means that it is the probable universe.

[Iecerint]

1. The roleblocker can't mess with Kdub in the Blackest Night-version of ability resolution.
2. Ooba prevented you from being messed with last night.

Ergo, we have to stipulate at least 2 of RC changing the mechanics around, ooba lying, and roleblocks happening correctly last night for you to be possible town due to RB shenanigans AFAICT.

[Iecerint]

Huh?

OHHH. Kdub's 416 didn't really sink in until right now. I read Ooba's end-of-D1 post the same way you did. <_<

[Iecerint]

Still doubt scum'd roleblock you unless they just wanted to toy with Ooba's ability (unless Ooba is scum), cuz his language implies he makes you tamper-proof:

One of my abilities allows me to make sure LLD cannot be killed tonight - Can't be roleblocked\redirected in any way.

[Iecerint]

I'm obviously not going to vote you until I have all necessary information.

[Iecerint]

LLD and Kdub were not roleblocked by town.

Vote: LLD

?

[Iecerint]

How annoying. He'd probably clarify it if the current situation didn't exist. Ah well.

I'm inclined to lynch LLD. I think the circumstances where she's town are remote enough that I'm willing to risk it, and, frankly, if she's town, she has no one to blame but herself. <_<

I still want to hear what Amrun meant by that comment.

I'd also like havingfitz to claim whether he knows whether he was targeted last night.

[Iecerint]

There's an outside possibility that Kdub's ability is only activated if it is capable of having an effect on the target. This is what I was trying to get Kdub to puzzle out. RC apparently confirmed that the target must have SOME kind of active ability for an effect to occur (i.e. a player who only has a passive ability would not be told that they got an extra ability usage that night), but the effect of roleblocks or failed action submission are less clear.

[Iecerint]

Well, I did say it was an "outside possibility."

[Iecerint]

Vote: LLD

[Iecerint]

LLD is only town if she is a /fail player this game re: actions who is also scummy AND RC changed the set-up AND/OR scum /outguessed Ooba's unintentional gambit AND/OR there are lots of roleblockers. I mean what more do you want.

Main reason to delay the day is if you think the daykiller is town and wanna let him do his thing.

[Iecerint]

The set-up issue is like this:

1. RC has used abilities like Kdub's claimed ability in the past.
2. Such abilities motivate players the same night as their action.
3. However, if, for example, a motivator were to be blocked AFTER he had already sent in his action, this would create a conflict where he may already have same-night-motivated some player (and it would be lots of information/weird for RC to say [caps]"you no longer get two actions! sorry!"[/caps]).
4. To deal with that issue (instead of, like, making the motivator target during the day), RC made the motivator RB-proof in old games.

--> So unless RC changed how he wants to deal with Kdub's ability this game, Kdub could not have been blocked N1.

A daykill on LLD is probably better, ye.

[Iecerint]

I was the one who asked you before.

Could you confirm/deny whether you have wings?

[Iecerint]

I had flavor last night, I need to confirm something, and I think that's the least-invasive question about you I can ask that will accomplish what I need to accomplish.

[Iecerint]

I believe fitz is voting for me...

Shenanigans?

[Iecerint]

@ Kdub re: Amrun -- I think her interpretation is that she has already found the roleblocker, it was a town one, and her having used it on him blocked him for that night. The only logic-step is that there would only be 1 roleblocker. Refer to Kast's post above.

Regarding the last, I think we would've lynched her first if she'd claimed that given RC's prior use of the role you claimed.

My guess is that her scumfriend is the one who's a tracker or watcher, and our decision to have you target her messed up the plan to use his ability to "confirm" her, so they had to improvise.

Her claimed role never really make any sense. It's too simple for RC's standards; compare it to the Tracker hybrid role from the original B&B game (mine!) where Zelda could transform into Sheik to perform doctor or tracker roles....

[Iecerint]

Why are you voting Amrun?

I Salthusis saying he doesn't want to put her at L-1 until D3 or until real-life tomorrow?

[Iecerint]

I dunno it either. I asked them for it yesterday, but they wouldn't tell me.

[Iecerint]

All I needed was a yes/no to that question. I may have a similar question for someone else tomorrow if I receive more flavor.

Am surprised that no one else got anything, but maybe being tight-lipped is a good idea.

[Iecerint]

I suppose Amrun should claim her target.

[Iecerint]

I did not receive any flavor last night.

Since Amrun's already claimed to have a RBer ability, I think letting her claim her target before too much else is claimed is ideal.

[Iecerint]

HMMMMM that is interesting.

At this point I think I support massclaim.

[Iecerint]

My only stipulation is that I go after fitz, because I also received flavor unrelated to his wings earlier.

[Iecerint]

Why am I going after Amrun? Why aren't we doing it popcorn style? And why is Iece dictating that he goes after me? I don't need him fashioning his "flavor" and claim based on what I provide.

I've already claimed enough of the flavor to make it clear to you that it's real. Not sure what's up with the scarequotes.

There was more to it than just wings, so I want to claim the rest afterward you claim so I can confirm to myself that it matches up. I have a good reason for this.

Ooba is not confirmed town, but he is softclaiming that he has a good reason for going last. You can evaluate whether he's full of shit when the time comes.

I agree that Fate's placement on the claim order is a little weird given Amrun's claiming to have blocked him.

[Iecerint]

Scarequotes? You mean "quotes" ?

What are you rolling your eyes at? Are you saying your use of quotations had a different function?

Anyway, either Fate or fitz next is fine. It looks like it'll be Fate.

[Iecerint]

Fitz has not fullclaimed.

[Iecerint]

Also, did Amrun just claim scum? O_o

[Iecerint]

Are you saying you want me to claim before fitz claims his actions? I cannot parse that sentence.

[Iecerint]

I honestly thought kunk had claimed scum D1 when he said something similar to you tbh. <_<

P-edit: K. Next post.

[Iecerint]

I've written it out now. I'm sending it to RC to confirm that the paraphrase is acceptable.

[Iecerint]

Took forever to write out because I had 11 paragraphs of flavor from N1 to paraphrase. N2 was shorter. I also go into how my role has affected my feelings about certain things.

I'm going to have lunch. I'll post it whenever I hear back from RC + am back.

[Iecerint]

Back.

I always write my claim up right before I claim it, unless I'm scum [EDIT: non-premediated /self-meta]; that's how I've done it in every game I've played. I usually just go ahead and post it without worrying much, though. This time is different because of the amount of stuff. Also, I was going to just pick out a few details from the flavor, but when I looked back over it there were some possibly-important details I'd forgotten about, so I decided to go ahead and paraphrase more of it.

[Iecerint]

Suppose I can claim little details like that.

I'm

Alice

. Rolename is

Wayward Seeker

. PM stipulates I'm from

Wonderland

. My art is the middle character on the game logo. My ability is called

Investigate

(but it's more complicated than just that).

N1 I targeted fitz
N2 I targeted Fate

[Iecerint]

I think fitz has actually already claimed enough that I know the possibilities with him.

Fate's situation is a little complicated. There may be specific reasons he wants to go later than me. Those might be OK.

I don't mind holding off on the flavorpost until both have fully claimed, though.

[Iecerint]

ABR says my paraphrase is slightly close for his tastes, but he'll allow it since I asked first. <3

Waiting for a consensus on when I should post it.

[Iecerint]

RC says*

[Iecerint]

Busdrove.... Oooba and Kast N1. (which means a lot of shit happened combined with the other busdrive)

?

[Iecerint]

Also, claim your rolename and universename.

[Iecerint]

Also, go ahead and paraphrase your bizarre flavor. Can't hurt.

[Iecerint]

For example, my universe was Wonderland. I made up the category label.

You probably shouldn't have joined this game if you do not like flavor. If it is similar to the previous game, flavor is a form of information that is useful to the town.

Why did you busdrive those characters, and what other busdrive are you talking about?

P-edit: I have an idea of why fitz might've done so BUT I suppose we'll see...I don't think it affects my ability to catch him with my role...

[Iecerint]

Which Witch are you, and what is your rolename?

I'm about to post my flavor unless Ooba objects...

[Iecerint]

Let me know whether this is acceptable. I've been careful to paraphase IMO, but I don't want to accidentally break a rule:

Below is a paraphrase.

I am

Alice

. I used to be associated with

Wonderland

. My role is

Wayward Seeker

.

My flavor talks about how I like to learn new things, but WL was too weird. I prefer places that make more sense. I don't trust people; consequently, I go and watch them at night to learn about them. I may not be correct all the time because people lie, but I am probably correct about 90% of the time.

My picture is drawn from the girl in the middle of the game logo.

My ability is called

Investigate

. I target one player each night. If it works, I learn fax, which may range from rolename to characters to actions to whatever. A note here re-lists that while it will usually be accurate, some people are as Holden Caulfield describes them in The Catcher In The Rye. Also, I am not very good at maths re: 90%.

Part of the reason I was so suspicious of LLD is that her role is basically a less interesting version of mine. <_<

N1 I targeted havingfitz because I thought his reaction to me D1 after I had a town read on him was unnatural, I thought his picking apart of my town&town wall was unnatural, and I thought there was enough weak "I suspect him" pressure that knowing his alignment would be useful. At the end of N1 I got flavor. There were 11 paragraphs of flavor altogether (though some are short), but here's a paraphrased abbreviation. I've bolded things that I think may be relevant:

I go to where havingfitz was going to spend the night. The area is

a green plain

. I look around the field, but

I cannot find her

, even though I look everywhere. I sense that

someone is watching me

. I think that person

might have an axe and want to hurt me

. But then I see who I was searching for (i.e.

fitz's name is not used

). She is floating in the air with wings. She is annoyed at me. I am

95% sure that the flavor suggests she is Tinkerbell, even though Wendy Darling already flipped

. Faery dust (albeit not explicitly described as such) falls from her wings as she flies. It's pretty.

I feel I am safe

. However, she remains annoyed, so I go.

D2 I was even more sure that LLD was lying, because my ability already contains elements of a Tracker and Watcher, and more besides. <_<

N2 I targeted Fate. I thought his attitude toward LLD D2 was incredibly bizarre, and I wanted to be able to counter whatever he had planned for D3 given that he was scum.

However, flavor indicated that I found that I was too tired and didn't want to get out of bed. So I could not investigate a player, not even Fate. So I stayed in bed til D3.

Interpretation at this point:

I think I was redirected or something N1 and roleblocked N2.

However, I don't know why fitz said he had wings --

The maid just came, so I'll finish my interpretation when I get back. I'm being kicked out for a moment. <_<

[Iecerint]

Yes, that is the extent of my N2 flavor. My N1 flavor was 11 paragraphs long and my N2 flavor was 1 paragraph long. I actually claimed a few posts back that the N2 flavor was shorter. I was somewhat vague about how much shorter because I wanted to pressure Fate into keeping to a truer claim in the event that he ended up going before me.

It's not confirmed that I was blocked N2; that is only my (reasonable IMO) inference from the flavor.

I have a feeling I know who Tinkerbell is, but I suppose we'll see soon.

I am annoyed that no one in this game will produce well-organized claims. <_<

[Iecerint]

kast claimed a busdrive on himself and someone

i busdrove them because i thought ooba would die and kast was someone scummy/lurkerish

that was cuz i thought lld was scum back then still >_>b

Busdrove.... Oooba and Kast N1. (which means a lot of shit happened combined with

the other busdrive

)

Bold added.

Why did you describe it as the OTHER busdrive?

[Iecerint]

I am inclined to agree that it is weird that I didn't get anything. I have looked at my PM again, and I still cannot see any evidence that could be interpreted as an allusion to that.

The closest thing to a possibility is the bit paraphrased in my post above like this:

So I could not investigate a player, not even Fate.

Stood out to me a little, which is why I included it in the paraphrase. But that is a stretch.

Then again, LLD didn't get anything, either.

P-edit: Fate, why wouldn't you just assume that Kast was claiming YOUR bus-drive? Why was there any evidence to you at the time that there was a second bus-drive?

[Iecerint]

Kdub fullclaimed yesterday? O_o

[Iecerint]

I am

Belle from Beauty and the Beast

. I am a

Loving Enhancer

. At night, I can target someone and they will be able to perform any action they have twice. However, if they are killed that same night, I die as well. I can target someone with an active ability tonight so they can confirm my power, but obviously I would not reveal in advance who that is unless that person gets protected. Obviously it's a swingy ability, but it's provable, and hopefully everyone can see how such an ability can't possibly be a scum power for balance reasons.

[Iecerint]

I'd forgotten about Kast's D2 claim, so I misinterpreted that Fate was alluding to Kast's somehow being aware that he himself had been busdriven, in which case the allusion to "another" busdriver doesn't make sense.

One idle point is that Fate's claimed role is misclaimed. His role would be

Little Miss Muffet

, not

Little Miss Tuffet

. Probably just a mistake either way, though is probably a slightly more likely error if it's not mod-provided.

Waiting for the remaining claims.

[Iecerint]

How'd fakeclaims work in the old game? I think Kerrigan just had Kerrigan and so on, right?

[Iecerint]

And they used it on a player who required an extra vote to lynch~! ^^

Happy memories.

[Iecerint]

IIRC, I think some of RC's flavor has implied that there are male characters in this game and that Ursula is in this game.

[Iecerint]

(So you're probably correct.)

[Iecerint]

We will be able to evaluate the possible explanations for no kill once everyone has claimed.

[Iecerint]

I think one of the deathscenes has a lady say things with eels around her. Let me check.

[Iecerint]

"That's not what she says." growled the same woman, pointing to one of her slippery eels, whose eyes flashed as he [presumably the eel] eyed the girl up and down with a baleful stare. The girl gasped as she saw the eel looking her over, and then blushed.

Could just be a Little Mermaid reference, but given that this is RC modding...

[Iecerint]

- N1 I protected Fate (he would not have been able to be killed or perform any actions) and last night I protected all.

You protected, or you jailkept?

[Iecerint]

Hmm.

Could you ask RC about your all-target now? I need to clarify whether you are responsible for my N2 ability not working.

[Iecerint]

Also, claim your ability names, please.

[Iecerint]

[caps]god this is like pulling teeth[/caps]

Claim both ability names, Amrun.

[Iecerint]

1.

Commuter is the exact fakeclaim I had for one for the three scum according to what I thought the setup was! (I had it as Tinkerbell but w/e)

Ooba, I've been wondering in the back of my head since N1 whether you were Tinkerbell because of this. I thought it was a crumb.

Where did this come from?

Also, if you'd decided that scum would have an investigative fakeclaim this game, why don't you think I am scum, especially with no Tinkerbell claim *AND* my ability implies she exists and is town *AND* (requires either the 10% failure on fitz OR unclaimed scum target-switcher).

I mean I know I'm town, but I'm surprised no one's pushing for my lynch tbh...

2. I think RC has deliberately messed with the ability names a little. For example, my ability has a mundane name, and Kast's rolename is mundane.

3. @ whoever spec'd at my N2 flavor, I can confirm that there's no nature-y flavor associated with it. One additional detail that didn't make it into the flavor is that I do *attempt* to go, but I stay in bed instead. But that's all. I probably got an indication-at-all because I always get flavor, so I'd whine at RC if I didn't get something.

[Iecerint]

Ooba, why did you want to claim last? Just your roleblock, or...?

[Iecerint]

ABR, is your character sexed up in your image?

[Iecerint]

I notice that this game has between 1-3 instances of characters from the same universe being included (bold are confirmed, parenthetical is implied by flavor, remaining is claimed):

Wendy

-- (Tinkerbell) (I think Tinkerbell is probably intended to be the fake half of the hypothetical GF role, since she can't be a town role since she wasn't claimed, unless my 10% is literally a random occurrence BUT my ability implies that it is wrong because people lie, which leads toward GF-world)

Dorothy

-- Wicked Witch

Ariel

-- (Ursula) (based only on flavor)

P-edit: Worth noting that Kast also stands out on those grounds, since he's a

Beloved Princess

rather than something fancy.

P-edit x2: Oh

My thought was that ABR's role is more plausible if RC was inspired by the Wicked musical, in which case he would claim a sexed-up picture. If he claimed one that isn't sexed-up, that would lean scum.

[Iecerint]

Oh wait wait.

Kast, is Beloved Princess your ABILITY or your ROLENAME or BOTH?

[Iecerint]

Also, no one claimed the SpyreX kill...so there's that...

[Iecerint]

So either:

1. The town daykiller just doesn't want to claim it. (Low probability)
2. The SK decided to claim something else AND is pretending to be one-shot (Low probability, since no reason to pretend to be one-shot if you're not even going to claim it)
3. The scumteam had a one-shot daykill (I guess this is what happened? Analogous to their free lynch ability in B&B1)

But I don't remember people trying to vilify me particularly after the SX kill...so I don't know why they'd shoot SX, particularly...

[Iecerint]

If he is fakeclaiming 100% and going for the "scum wouldn't do that" angle, he might have claimed not-sexed-up. I agree that this would be an indication that he was fakeclaiming.

Hitting the bulletproofs is possible, I guess. I would have expected that RC would take the opportunity to include some flavor, though. That would mean either you or Sath, right? I think the scum daykill might be parsimonious, though.

[Iecerint]

If the scum have a daykill and it isn't factional, I might expect 1 scum not to have a confirmable ability...

[Iecerint]

Well, it's also how well scum can figure out the set-up and nullify it as a strategy, or introduce relations between roles that change how the game is perceived, etc. It just adds another layer to the game.

Your perceived tell on Amrun is almost certainly null unless you think both Ooba and Fitz are scum AND a secret scum blocked me. No kill N2 was overdetermined.

I am also skeptical of ABR's play. It's been pretty minimalistic until today, and today has focused on jumping on set-up details without balancing specific propositions against other possibilities, etc. It's a way of playing that allows scum to potentially take over the set-up speculation without much forethought.

[Iecerint]

*baited breath*

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- And send in his so-called night action first as soon as he hammers. That way there can be no chances for him claiming that scum roleblocked his mass No-kill action.

I'm pretty sure his claimed mass no-kill is one-shot...

Or did I just assume that?

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I see. ^^~

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I thought you Neighborized Fate N1...?

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Oh, nevermind. Only your N2 usage would matter.

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Oh. Gosh. I had in memory that you targeted Fate N1 for some reason. I think it was his JUST CLAIM IT thing D2.

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I agree with Ooba.

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If fitz can confirm that he still has his action available (I don't see why RC wouldn't tell him this), then I

'd be willing to

will 100% go along with your plan.

This is where I am. If he can't, I am probably still in agreement with you.

Not sure why ABR thinks Ooba is scum, other than that Ooba wants to lynch him (i.e. no discussion about how Ooba is twisting or misrepresenting who is likely scum from the set of claims).

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No one is confirmed town, but there are some claim discrepancies that implicate certain players (specifically, you/ABR/Kast). The ability name flavor in the former cases, and the rolename/abilityname situation in the last.

One big discrepancy is my Tinkerbell result on you. Either I am making it up, I was redirected, or you(=fitz) are some kind of GF scum. Ooba offered an explanation for why he thought it wasn't the first one when I asked him about it earlier (short-version -- he thinks I would have claimed more opportunistic results were I scum).

Another discrepancy is that Fate's and Kast's busdrive abilities work differently, one allowing self-busdrives. There's a perception that this enters into the balance question for reasons that only kind of make sense to me.

It would be anti-town for town to stay quiet about the daykill...it would affect set-up balance analysis given that person's flip if they didn't claim it, namely.

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Scum had an ability that basically gave a free lynch in B&B1 (instantaneously lowered all lynch thresholds by 1), which is kind of like having a free daykill, so I could see that as a strong possibility. I actually think this is most likely. Ooba found modding thread evidence that the set-up may have an SK, so I guess that's also a reasonable possibility. I think positing lying townies is relatively unlikely.

I am not confusing Tinkerbell with a bird. The flavor has her flying in the air angry at me with dust coming from her wings. I mean it's pretty unambiguous, though it doesn't use the name.

I am the only one who claimed any kind of direct indication of being blocked IIRC; I targeted Fate today, but it didn't work.

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Let me know whether this is acceptable. I've been careful to paraphase IMO, but I don't want to accidentally break a rule:

Below is a paraphrase.

I am

Alice

. I used to be associated with

Wonderland

. My role is

Wayward Seeker

.

My flavor talks about how I like to learn new things, but WL was too weird. I prefer places that make more sense. I don't trust people; consequently, I go and watch them at night to learn about them. I may not be correct all the time because people lie, but I am probably correct about 90% of the time.

My picture is drawn from the girl in the middle of the game logo.

My ability is called

Investigate

. I target one player each night. If it works, I learn fax, which may range from rolename to characters to actions to whatever. A note here re-lists that while it will usually be accurate, some people are as Holden Caulfield describes them in The Catcher In The Rye. Also, I am not very good at maths re: 90%.

Part of the reason I was so suspicious of LLD is that her role is basically a less interesting version of mine. <_<

N1 I targeted havingfitz because I thought his reaction to me D1 after I had a town read on him was unnatural, I thought his picking apart of my town&town wall was unnatural, and I thought there was enough weak "I suspect him" pressure that knowing his alignment would be useful. At the end of N1 I got flavor. There were 11 paragraphs of flavor altogether (though some are short), but here's a paraphrased abbreviation. I've bolded things that I think may be relevant:

I go to where havingfitz was going to spend the night. The area is

a green plain

. I look around the field, but

I cannot find her

, even though I look everywhere. I sense that

someone is watching me

. I think that person

might have an axe and want to hurt me

. But then I see who I was searching for (i.e.

fitz's name is not used

). She is floating in the air with wings. She is annoyed at me. I am

95% sure that the flavor suggests she is Tinkerbell, even though Wendy Darling already flipped

. Faery dust (albeit not explicitly described as such) falls from her wings as she flies. It's pretty.

I feel I am safe

. However, she remains annoyed, so I go.

D2 I was even more sure that LLD was lying, because my ability already contains elements of a Tracker and Watcher, and more besides. <_<

N2 I targeted Fate. I thought his attitude toward LLD D2 was incredibly bizarre, and I wanted to be able to counter whatever he had planned for D3 given that he was scum.

However, flavor indicated that I found that I was too tired and didn't want to get out of bed. So I could not investigate a player, not even Fate. So I stayed in bed til D3.

Interpretation at this point:

I think I was redirected or something N1 and roleblocked N2.

However, I don't know why fitz said he had wings --

The maid just came, so I'll finish my interpretation when I get back. I'm being kicked out for a moment. <_<

I added bold to the paragraph that answers your question.

[Iecerint]

A thought: Given that Kast is a Beloved Princess, it might make sense to allow self-busdrives to keep the bad half of his ability from coming into play.

I am still weirded out by the fact that his PM is apparently constructed totally differently, though.

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I think Fate is probably not scum given his situation with RC. I don't think he would be complaining about the set-up given the currently direction of the game if he were scum. Also, I think RC would probably interpret Fate's behavior differently, especially since it is acceptable for a mod to ignore personal attacks and not become involved in the action in spite of the source (i.e. he wouldn't feel the need to fake-respond if he knew Fate was scum).

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I wish I'd done my "send RC something and see if it is transferred to sentbox" trick.

But today I went to the zoo unf.

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I think Fate may need to be replaced if this is the only contribution he can bring to the game.

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Please request replacement before you are modkilled. <_<

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You could ask a more general question -- like, without commenting on what actions took place last night:

Can my ability be blocked?
If my ability is blocked, do I have an opportunity to reuse it?

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I'm almost ready to lynch Fate just so that we can blame the loss on his asinine behavior afterwards.

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Except that:

1. I think Kast's and Fate's abilities have different names, and

2. The fact that Kast is a Beloved Princess might justify his having a more powerful version of the ability.

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That is actually very beautiful. It addresses a lot of the misgivings I'd had about things.

Unvote; Vote: Fitz

This makes 3 votes (Amrun, Ooba, Iec). L-2.

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Kast, please busdrive carefully ^^~

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I didn't spot a guy with an axe; I imagined that a force I thought was watching me might have an axe. It may've been normal-type flavor for being scared.

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I have results.

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Also, the flavor basically implies that ABR is scum given that he's the cause of the modscene start and end:

Apparently,

someone

[ABR claims this is him] had been contemplating to themselves, and had decided that a gathering of all fairy tale heroines and villainesses together in the same locale was bourgeois and altogether unwanted. Mostly because, let's face it; nobody really cares about fairy tales any more, let alone the girls in them. Especially when those said girls are unnecessarily shapely and voluptuous, but with barely the wit to hold a candle to a smart pooch. And so,

that somebody had decided to take matters into their own hands. And the first to go was someone that had been caught stealing, and could be up to no good anyway

.

Could be that ABR didn't ask RC enough about how his ability interacted with the opening flavor.

[Iecerint]

That, or he wants to backtrack and claim vig on Amrun.

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My interpretation is that RC's plan was for clever scum to subvert our observation in B&B1 that, unlike in most MS games, the flavor was actually relevant to the game itself by letting scum control it to an extent. I could see it result from one of the scum from the old game being frustrated by how flavor was used.

[Iecerint]

Oh, I misread your point.

I think he's, falsely or otherwise, already directly implicating ABR in the flavor ABR submitted himself.

The real question is whether he's more likely to do this when ABR is scum or when he is town.

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BUT w/e claims first.

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Hey, it worked yesterday.

Also worked in B&B1.

So yeah.

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I decided on him over the other possibilities mainly because of flavor analysis.

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Waitin on Kasty.

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Is Kast V/LA? He hasn't posted since the 11th...

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Paraphrase sent to RC.

I can go ahead and say the following things:
1. My flavor suggests that Kast took no action last night (sleeping, and she's not gone when I first arrive).
2. My flavor is consistent with Kast being roleblocked (as above).
3. My flavor is consistent with Kast being LRR (flavor awaiting confirmation).
4. My flavor is also consistent with Kast being some kind of princess (flavor awaiting confirmation).
5. My flavor suggests that Kast may keep something of interest in her picnic basket, but I couldn't understand it, so I didn't look.

Kast isn't scum. It's possible that he is a 3rd party role of some kind -- i.e. if he had a gun or something in his picnic basket, since the flavor made special notice of something being in there, and the word choice implies it isn't food -- but that's all.

[Iecerint]

Claims need to finish.

Kdub is next.

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Fun fact: I think (it takes forever to load in China, so I can't confirm) all the girls from the opening image who've flipped have flipped town. It's AliceIec + BelleKdub + ArielLLD + GoldilocksAmrun (+ i forget who), right?

I think just Kdub and I remain.

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Though I guess the same thing happened in B&B1.

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I sent the long-form to RC for confirmation. I think confirmation is necessary because last time he said he was only allowing it because I confirmed it with him first. He hasn't responded yet.

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RC OK'd it:

My flavor is pretty consistent with Kast's story, minus the party. Looser paraphrase this time so I don't have to go through RC [redacted; I checked anyway]:

I feel bad about sleeping last night, so I try extra hard to be useful. I go to where Kast lives in accordance with the hopefully town-made plan.

Kast is lying in a wooded area like a princess. Her manner suggests she is highborn. I sense her dreams are nice; she's not having nightmares -- I get a special note of this for some reason. I notice that she has a red cloak, a picnic basket, and black leather boots. I see things in the basket, but they confuse me, so I ignore them and don't touch them.

I look at her sleeping. I see her white underwear. I get wet in my vag. Then I get nervous about her waking up and finding me with a wet vag, so I leave.

As I'm sleeping I wonder if there was anything from before I should have noticed. I sleep.

[Iecerint]

Kast stole my explanation.

Kast, what's in your baskets?

[Iecerint]

It also doesn't help explain how you survived while Amrun died.

I actually totally hadn't noticed this.

Re: Fate -- Fate's claimed use of his ability was very anti-town...the whole point of my targeting Kast was that if he was lying about being able to self-busdrive, I'd get results on him, but if I got them on someone else, that would confirm that Kast could self-busdrive.

Re: Ooba -- Agree on both counts. It's possible the princess angle was supposed to reflect the BP claim. It's also possible that there's more to Kast's role, and the schizophrenic information is RC's way of reconciling his claim with his role.

Not sure what to make of Fate wanting to claim with me. Gave the impression that he was going to do something outlandish.

[Iecerint]

Oh, wait, nevermind.

Fate just claimed to do what I already said I would do, except that he made it more complicated by bringing in resolution of redirects v. busdrives into it for no reason.

So still anti-town, but for a new reason.

[Iecerint]

I don't think fitz was necessarily a Traitor in the Mafia sense of the word. I think I would have gotten a stronger inkling that she was nefarious if that were the case, since Traitors aren't normally GFs. I think the "Traitor" angle just comes from Tinkerbell's flavor-role as a character who betrays her friends. This would justify her GF status, too.

Though I agree that your theory about ABR's role makes sense if fitz and ABR truly could not communicate.

[Iecerint]

2. My flavor is consistent with Kast being roleblocked (as above).

I don't see anything in your paraphrased flavor that suggests this.

When I was roleblocked N2, my flavor was that I couldn't get out of bed, and I slept all night. I'm analogizing that that same block may have hit Kast last night. This is what I thought even before Kast claimed.

I need to go back and confirm that I didn't have any nightmares N2 (because my Kastflavor specifies that Kast isn't having them). Doesn't sound familiar to me.

[Iecerint]

Confirmed. I didn't have any kind of uncomfortable sleeping N2, so that's consistent with Kast's situation. Wanted to confirm because the flavor made a point of her sleep being nice.

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Hmm...they could have redirected me to scum so that they would get two uses of whatever ability. That might be a better move for them.

Possibly. Frankly, your ability has failed 3 consecutive nights, so they might think you'll convert to lynch territory if they can keep it going long enough.

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That "swarm of birds" comment from fitz that ooba noticed yesterday still makes me want to kill ABR tbh. I think my N1 flavor suggests that Tinkerbell would not have a fakeclaim of her own. My N1 ability use on her implied that she was Tinkerbell AND town (flavor specified I knew I was in no danger after I met her). Given this, also giving her a fakeclaim makes no sense. Hell, it sabotages the way her GF ability works. <_<

BUT Fate's not out of the question for me, either.

[Iecerint]

I do not understand what Fate is saying. No one has any knowledge of how Fate actually used his ability sooooo...?

Does it make sense to anyone else?

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The only way Kast can be scum AFAICT is if he's daykilling SK who was blocked or if he's scum with me and this flavor foolishness is all made-up (because I wouldn't waste ability usage on 2 scumfriends just to get flavor information).

I considered that I could be naive to alignment, but it's impossible because town would've claimed to have blocked Kast, and I can't believe that Amrun would ALSO sabotage Ooba's plan with her ability.

The only way you are town is if you did not think very hard about your ability usage last night or you're trolling.

[Iecerint]

I guess it's possible that hypo-SK has a roleblock and used it on Kast-scum (AND I'm secretly alignment-naive), but I mean.

[Iecerint]

Kdub, you framed your earlier vote on Fate as a result of a Fate/Iec dichotomy. What do you think about ABR?

[Iecerint]

Ah, OK.

I thought the chances of ABR lying about his ability function per se were pretty near zero given that they were that confirmable. I think a more appropriate question to ask is which alignment is more likely to have access to it.

[Iecerint]

There is no explanation for your claimed N3 action whatsoever given that you are town. If you are lynched, you have no one to blame but yourself.

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@ Ooba -- I've already explained why Kast is almost certainly town. The only alternatives are the ones I spelled out here:

The only way Kast can be scum AFAICT is if he's daykilling SK who was blocked or if he's scum with me and this flavor foolishness is all made-up (because I wouldn't waste ability usage on 2 scumfriends just to get flavor information).

I considered that I could be naive to alignment, but it's impossible because town would've claimed to have blocked Kast, and I can't believe that Amrun would ALSO sabotage Ooba's plan with her ability.

I guess it's possible that hypo-SK has a roleblock and used it on Kast-scum (AND I'm secretly alignment-naive), but I mean.

Do you think something in this is mistaken? (Summary: Kast appears to have been roleblocked, and no one has claimed it, so scum roleblocked him. Outside chance is that he's one type of scum and the other type of scum roleblocked him.) If so, what?

I think you are reading too much into the "traitorous" flavor of fitz's flip. Tinkerbell is a literal traitor; there's no need to superimpose mafia meaning on top of it. And there's no reason for fitz to have a fakeclaim when my result on him showed him as innocent-Tinkerbell (which is probably the mafia-y type of traitor the rolename implies...). Especially with your "swarm" catch yesterday, sharing safeclaims makes more sense.

[Iecerint]

He never claimed you were his top townread. That was your misinterpretation earlier. He wanted you to claim last because of your redirect.

I'd actually toyed with the notion that Ooba might be the SK if Sath isn't AND the SK even exists, but I don't think he's mafia for the circumstances of the fitz lynch UNLESS fitz was really just a mundane traitor BUT I doubt it because there'd be no reason for him to have a safeclaim given my role SO I think fitz was GF-scum and claimed someone else's fakeclaim as per Ooba's D3 theory.

Though, if Ooba *is* scum-scum, I think it's relatively likely that ABR is scum with him because of how Ooba would have taken (in that universe) the narrow-but-accurate literal interpretation of the fitz rolename flip and spun it to take ABR from major scumlist suspect to basically cleared.

[Iecerint]

I haven't really gotten a sense of ABR being ABR/using his powers for good this game. He's kinda been on the backburner and occasionally jumped on little details of set-up spec to foster suspicion onto random targets. The focus hasn't been there.

[Iecerint]

Or you're scum together, and he thought he could unbus you. Which, even that. <_<

I am frankly weirded out by the unvote because regardless of your alignment, it doesn't make sense to me.

[Iecerint]

Fate, who do you think is scum with Ooba?

Do you think fitz was a traitor-traitor, or a GF traitor?

Do you think the set-up has an SK?

[Iecerint]

O_o @ Sath criticizing Fate for playing the game.

[Iecerint]

Fate, Kast can't be scum except a) with me (if I made up all the flavor and no blocks happened), b) as the SK (and scum roleblocked me N2 and him N3), or c) as scum (SK roleblocked me N2 and him N3). Same thing I just told Ooba.