The Brave and the Beautiful 2: Fairy Tales ÔÇô Game Over

[Kdub]

Actually, now that I think about it, the SpyreX kill very likely came from scum. The smart way for a pro-town role to use such an ability would be to use it on a player that was going to be the D1 lynch, so that the town could effectively get two lynches D1. Randomly shooting SpyreX out of the blue would be stupid, even if said player thought he was suspicious (and really, can you be sure enough on D1 to waste a kill like that?). Nobody in this game strikes me as a player would would play a day vig in such a careless manner. Therefore, SpyreX was probably killed by scum.

I will have more to say on the implications of SpyreX's death, but I want to hear what Iec thinks about it first. And yes, fitz, I will explain why I FoS'ed you in due time.

[Iecerint]

I think the day before USMLE boards is the wrong day for me to push a unilateral crusade on someone. I also very rarely do that as town in general.

Iec...are you saying you are unilaterally pushing a crusade on someone ATM (Kdub?) and that you rarely do that as town? If so...isn't that like a self-meta admission of being scum

VOTE: Iecerint

...No?

This is what happened:

Iec: I think some players are scum, etc.
SX: OMG WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTING ME YOU ARE PERHAPS SCUM HMMM ALSO SELF-META ERGO SCUM.
Iec: Now is not the time for Iec-crusades because I am busy s/p boards. This is why there is no crusade. Also I am more of a crusader as scum /self-meta lol
SX: FINE I WILL BE WAITING FROM MY MOON PALACE.
SX: (*dies*)

Is that why you voted me?

ALSO: BOARDS ARE OVER NOW YAYAYAYAYAY.

BUT I AM STEALING SAPO'S COMPUTER FROM HER ATM SO I WILL WRITE MORE LATER ON. <3

[ReaperCharlie]

OMG WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTING ME YOU ARE PERHAPS SCUM HMMM ALSO SELF-META ERGO SCUM.

SX: FINE I WILL BE WAITING FROM MY MOON PALACE.

ALSO: BOARDS ARE OVER NOW YAYAYAYAYAY.

BUT I AM STEALING SAPO'S COMPUTER FROM HER ATM SO I WILL WRITE MORE LATER ON. <3

Last warning.

[ReaperCharlie]

The Brave and Beautiful Vote Count

1.8

---

Iecerint [3] – Kdub, Lady Lambdadelta, havingfitz
Kdub [3] – kunkstar7, Amrun, ooba

kunkstar7 [2]

– bv310, Kast

Lady Lambdadelta [2]

– Robocopter87, Fate

Not Voting

– Albert B. Rampage, Iecerint

---

With 12 players alive, it is 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is July 1 at 12pm PST (3pm EST).

[havingfitz]

Is that why you voted me?

No. Mostly because my top suspect has claimed themself off my list for the time being and no one else is getting my attention as much as you have. Which is being highlighted even more given there are still 3 or 4 players who are yet to really get engaged. I thought some of the points brought up by SpyreX had merit and they probably contributed to the semi-gut suspicion I had prior to voting you. That combined with taking my vote off of LLD and preferring to have it in play than not.

---

I see the points about not pursuing knowledge of who made the SpyreX kill. I thought Fate had essentially claimed and if so...I was glad to consider him town. I still don't think scum would have a daykill ability (if anyone has links to games this has occurred I would like to peruse them) but given Fate seems to not be taking credit for the kill and the ~possibility scum made the kill, I'll take Fate off my confirmed town list for now.

Should have time tomorrow to do closer reads on some of the other players.

[kunkstar7]

Meh, Iec vote was not posting carefully, but can't really prove it either way, and any other excuses explanations are pointless as well.

@Havingfitz, knowing that multiple players (most likely all) are going to be power roles, why would claiming take your top suspect off the viable lynches list? Her abilities aren't even obvprotown, they can be scum as well. Ultimately I think most of your reasons for voting Iec seem a bit contrived, especially the "getting most attention so lets focus there" and preferring to have your vote in play.

@ooba, apparently I'm a bit dense here, but besides the mess up with Iec and Kdub, what else makes me scum?

First thought was Fate killed Spyrex, but apparently not, so likely it's a scumvig and I see no reason to bother with it further as they won't reveal themselves. Knowing Spyrex is town is goodstuff though.

[Iecerint]

I still don't think scum would have a daykill ability (if anyone has links to games this has occurred I would like to peruse them)

They had one in this game, though it was also a UPick, so ye know.

I think the daykill is from a serial killer if it's from scum, especially since B&B1 didn't have one and RC apparently likes them (RC recently posted about the upcoming Harry Potter game NOT featuring multiple SKs in one of the RC drama threads in response to claims that RC<3SK-type stuff would mess with the balance, etc).

Meh, Iec vote was not posting carefully, but can't really prove it either way, and any other excuses explanations are pointless as well.

Whose?

[Iecerint]

/outguess

[Kdub]

Iec, what is your opinion now on LL and me in light of SpyreX's flip?

[havingfitz]

Meh, Iec vote was not posting carefully, but can't really prove it either way, and any other excuses explanations are pointless as well.

@Havingfitz, knowing that multiple players (most likely all) are going to be power roles, why would claiming take your top suspect off the viable lynches list? Her abilities aren't even obvprotown, they can be scum as well. Ultimately I think most of your reasons for voting Iec seem a bit contrived, especially the "getting most attention so lets focus there" and preferring to have your vote in play.

Whose Iec vote are you saying "was not posting carefully," your's or Kdub's?

I was not "knowing" multiple players might be PRs until Robo brought it up in post 220. I'm not sure how that affects my take on LLD's claim which is why I haven't put my vote back on her today. I never said she wasn't a viable lynch candidate, I just wouldn't support her lynch today. In fact, thinking this post out, I'm even more inclined to believe her with the possibility everyone is a PR as IMO tracker/watcher is more likely to be a town aligned role and if everyone has a power of some sort...chances are even greater that a tracker/watcher capability exists. Plus...to fakeclaim both capabilities would be even more dangerous for scum to do as you would be doubling the chances of being countered by town (at some point).

If someone else makes points I think have merit, taking those points into consideration isn't "contrived." Do you think SpyreX's suspicions towards Iec were contrived?

As for my vote...as long as I have a modicum of suspicions on someone I would rather have my vote in play then not at all. IMO it gives my firm stance on whoever I'm voting as opposed to what I consider the more suspicious stance by non-voters of waiting in the wings to place your vote.

@Iec, I hadn't considered an SK. That's a good point. Not sure how it affects anything atm but something to keep in mind as the game progresses. Unfortunately I think it muddies the SpyreX kill even moreso which makes trying to figure out who or why the daykill took place even more of a goat rope.

[havingfitz]

Iec ISO.

I voted Fate because I think he's somewhat more likely to be scum than kunk,

When you made this comment both Fate and kunk had only made one post. What were you basing their respective/comparative prospects of being scum on?

I don't like the stress of driving the ship as scum, so I prefer to keep a handful of (wrong) competent town players in the running so that they can win the game on my behalf.

Would you classify your absence of a vote while voicing suspicions towards several players as NOT driving the ship?

Post 49 - you agree with robo's (and therefore I would assume with the 2-3 other players who voted LLd for the same reasons as robo) suspicions towards LLd but never vote her or even FoS her.

A fair amount of buddying with Fate (Posts 46 & 63). Ironic that in one of the posts (post 63) where Iec IMO is buddying Fate that Iec states LLd and to a somewhat lesser degree Fate are trying to make friends (which I did not notice).

You unvote Fate in post 164 without giving any reasons (is he no longer scummy to you) and you fail to place your vote on anyone else, even though you are happy with the LLd wagon (even post-claim) and you had stated "Were I to switch, I'd switch to SX because I don't want to put LLD at L-1." So why no vote? Why not vote SpyreX or who I assume is/was your other suspect, Kdub.

If I'm following your trail of suspicion correctly (please let me know if I am wrong) you are most suspicious of (in no particular order) Fate,

SpyreX

, Kdub, and at some point later on LLd (despite being as I mentioned...happy with her wagon).

Anyway, wheels are spinnin until our friends come.

When I ISO'd you this came across as an attempt to slow things down a bit since no progress was going to be made while waiting on absent players. At this point I think the game was moving at a pretty good pace and stating things were going nowhere just stikes an odd chord for me. Especially at a time when SpyreX was putting heat on you.

---

reading through the thread while doing Iec's ISO, I'm not seeing Kdub as scum. Kunk is raising some suspicions for me atm though. He hasn't posted much but what he has I do not like.

ISO 0 - Amrun RV. Ok, fine.
ISO 1 - Plays off ooba's scumteam post (Ok) but then hammers robo's LLd suspicions and throws in a little misrep (ie...insinuating robo is of the position that the slightest defense of oneself is scummy)...yet for all the focus on robo, he votes Iecerint.
ISO 2 - Unvotes Iecerint ( ) and votes Kdub for flipping back and forth. WTF? You (kunkstar) have made a vote in every post so far and provided very little if any rationale.
ISO 3 - I've responded to this post in my most recent post.

FoS

kunkstar7

[kunkstar7]

Whose Iec vote are you saying "was not posting carefully," your's or Kdub's?

Mine. Hence the following part about excuses etc.

If someone else makes points I think have merit, taking those points into consideration isn't "contrived." Do you think SpyreX's suspicions towards Iec were contrived?

Note I said most. I didn't state any issue with the taking from Spyrex, especially with Spyrex flipping town, I had issues with the other weak reasonings.

I disagree with your tracker/watcher assessment but since its just reaching mod outguessing at this point I won't push it.

So why no vote? Why not vote SpyreX or who I assume is/was your other suspect, Kdub.

This is a real good question though.

[Iecerint]

I voted Fate because I think he's somewhat more likely to be scum than kunk,

When you made this comment both Fate and kunk had only made one post. What were you basing their respective/comparative prospects of being scum on?

I'm pretty sure I explained why I thought Fate was scum in the first post after he voted me. It's in the p-edit...ACTUALLY, I explain it in [caps]literally the same post you just quoted from[/caps]:

I voted Fate because I think he's somewhat more likely to be scum than kunk, and I don't really think fitz is scum. Need to see more from him before I comment further.

P-edit: lol

The reason I voted Fate was that his early posts are focused on discrediting players rather than legitimately prodding people about game-related things. Having played scum with Fate many times (and town Fate), this is something I've noticed.

Bold added. I can add that I did think that kunk's RVS vote was slightly scummy as RVS votes go (which is what I assumed ooba was picking up on), but I thought Fate's situation unambiguously trumped that.

I don't like the stress of driving the ship as scum, so I prefer to keep a handful of (wrong) competent town players in the running so that they can win the game on my behalf.

Would you classify your absence of a vote while voicing suspicions towards several players as NOT driving the ship?

Fair point, though it doesn't speak to the Fate vote situation in particular. That said, I felt more like a ship-driver than I thought I would have time to be the first few days.

Post 49 - you agree with robo's (and therefore I would assume with the 2-3 other players who voted LLd for the same reasons as robo) suspicions towards LLd but never vote her or even FoS her.

Don't see the problem. She had plenty of votes. Also, I think she also said really bizarre reactionary things like that as town in [REDACTED]. I think players accused her of making some kind of assumption and she threw a fit.

A fair amount of buddying with Fate (Posts 46 & 63). Ironic that in one of the posts (post 63) where Iec IMO is buddying Fate that Iec states LLd and to a somewhat lesser degree Fate are trying to make friends (which I did not notice).

You are misinterpreting my statement. My point is that whereas both LLD and Fate had prior said mean things to ME, they both shifted and wanted to be friends with me around the same time. I did not intend to imply that they were trying to be friends with one another.

I do not deny that I am buddying Fate. It's null, though. I do this in every game I play with Fate as either alignment UNLESS I decide that he may be scum and I am town (which is basically a summary of the /self-meta post from early on).

You unvote Fate in post 164 without giving any reasons (is he no longer scummy to you) and you fail to place your vote on anyone else, even though you are happy with the LLd wagon (even post-claim) and you had stated "Were I to switch, I'd switch to SX because I don't want to put LLD at L-1." So why no vote? Why not vote SpyreX or who I assume is/was your other suspect, Kdub.

Fate had not really been scummy to me in a long time, no; certainly not the scummiest. This should not be a surprise to you in that I'd already stated at least 2 times that I thought his "@ goofbash ergo bad first few posts" excuse was valid. I didn't revote because I wasn't ready to revote yet.

THOUGH while accurate that doesn't really explain why I unvoted per se. The real reason I unvoted tbh is that I was annoyed at SX making fun of me for still voting Fate. ^^;

If I'm following your trail of suspicion correctly (please let me know if I am wrong) you are most suspicious of (in no particular order) Fate,

SpyreX

, Kdub, and at some point later on LLd (despite being as I mentioned...happy with her wagon).

I think I'm most suspicious of Kdub and LLD right now. I am not particularly suspicious of Fate. I am not ready to vote.

Anyway, wheels are spinnin until our friends come.

When I ISO'd you this came across as an attempt to slow things down a bit since no progress was going to be made while waiting on absent players. At this point I think the game was moving at a pretty good pace and stating things were going nowhere just stikes an odd chord for me. Especially at a time when SpyreX was putting heat on you.

I felt like I was basically multiposting the same thing over and over. I was summarizing my earlier posts instead of adding new information to the thread. SX's "heat" on me was basically that + a religious dispute about /self-meta.

It's probably also true that I was kind of wanting the ability to babysit the thread less, though, because I had the most important test of my life in a few days BUT frankly I think it was more the former because I posted a gazillion times in this thread in spite of it.

[Iecerint]

Iec, what is your opinion now on LL and me in light of SpyreX's flip?

Has not significantly changed.

In fact, though it's kinda empty now, I was leaning you slightly as the scum between the two of you because your posts had this "SX and I are twin crusaders" element a few times that I don't think SX ever really echoed, and that seemed off.

[Iecerint]

I guess it was just once. This is the quote that stuck out for me:

I think this is the first time in this game where you have outright declared suspicions without qualifications. Why exactly are you calling me/SpyreX scum suddenly? Because we disagree with you?

[Iecerint]

Also, I'm headed to the lake today, where there is literally limited access. But I'll still try to post at least once per day or so.

Then I leave for China Monday, which will be an adventure.

Boards being over is fun. <3

[Amrun]

TvT walls make me sad.

[Iecerint]

It is only vT in that first bit where I am annoyed that he only read half of one of my posts. The rest is (I think) a T&T wall.

Mine, at least.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It is only vT in that first bit where I am annoyed that he only read half of one of my posts.

The rest is (I think) a T&T wall.

Mine, at least.

-twitch-

[ooba]

@Kunk: Those are the reasons.

TvT, T&T?

[Amrun]

TvT is town vs town. T&T is just discussion, I guess?

[Iecerint]

What are you twitching at?

My point was that it was not a wall where I yelled mean things at fitz; rather, it was a wall where I addressed fitz's concerns (which mostly do not seem made-up).

[havingfitz]

The reason I voted Fate was that his early posts are focused on discrediting players rather than legitimately prodding people about game-related things. Having played scum with Fate many times (and town Fate), this is something I've noticed.

Bold added. I can add that I did think that kunk's RVS vote was slightly scummy as RVS votes go (which is what I assumed ooba was picking up on), but I thought Fate's situation unambiguously trumped that.

I was mistaken in that Fate had a few more votes but my main point was that you were comparing their level of scumminess (sp?) when as you point out, kunk only had one post...a scummy RV

I don't like the stress of driving the ship as scum, so I prefer to keep a handful of (wrong) competent town players in the running so that they can win the game on my behalf.

Would you classify your absence of a vote while voicing suspicions towards several players as NOT driving the ship?

Fair point,

though it doesn't speak to the Fate vote situation in particular

. That said, I felt more like a ship-driver than I thought I would have time to be the first few days.

Could you explain the underlined bit.

Post 49 - you agree with robo's (and therefore I would assume with the 2-3 other players who voted LLd for the same reasons as robo) suspicions towards LLd but never vote her or even FoS her.

Don't see the problem.

She had plenty of votes.

Also, I think she also said really bizarre reactionary things like that as town in [REDACTED]. I think players accused her of making some kind of assumption and she threw a fit.

Regarding the bit of your quote I have bolded...as of post 49 when you made the comments I refer to above...

LLd only had one vote

. So what other reason do you have for not voting her? You still have her as a top two suspect...even after her claim, so surely she deserved a vote before her claim when she only had the one vote. ????

You are misinterpreting my statement. My point is that whereas both LLD and Fate had prior said mean things to ME, they both shifted and wanted to be friends with me around the same time. I did not intend to imply that they were trying to be friends with one another.

I do not deny that I am buddying Fate. It's null, though.

I do this in every game I play with Fate as either alignment UNLESS I decide that he may be scum and I am town

(which is basically a summary of the /self-meta post from early on).

I wasn't implying they were trying to be friends with each other either. I was just pointing out that you were saying they were trying to make friends (with who is not important) while you had been doing the same thing...even in the same post. Regarding the bit I have bolded...as you were voting Fat I assume you think/thought he was scum. If you admit to buddying him in this game and admit that you always buddy him UNLESS you think he is scum and you are town, what are we to consider your alignment in this game? Based on the fact you had your vote on Fate the majority of this day I assume you think he is scum.

townFate + townIec = buddying
townFate + scumIec = buddying
scumFate +scumIec = buddying
scumFate + townIec = no buddying

It appears you are saying you are scum. Or we at least have a 2/3 chance of you being scum.

Fate had not really been scummy to me in a long time, no; certainly not the scummiest. This should not be a surprise to you in that I'd already stated at least 2 times that I thought his "@ goofbash ergo bad first few posts" excuse was valid. I didn't revote because I wasn't ready to revote yet.

THOUGH while accurate that doesn't really explain why I unvoted per se. The real reason I unvoted tbh is that I was annoyed at SX making fun of me for still voting Fate. ^^;

SpyreX was annoying you prior to his death. Noted.

I think I'm most suspicious of Kdub and LLD right now. I am not particularly suspicious of Fate. I am not ready to vote.

It's good to keep your options open. So Fate is not a suspect. Got it. Could you provide your thoughts on LLd's claim and why she is still your #2 suspect? I find her reactions to suspicion and some of her comments very suspicious but given her claim and IMO the likelihood/odds of there being a tracking or watching type PR (especially if there is a chance all/most of the players are PRs) I can not see her being an anti-town role.

[Iecerint]

1. I don't know what your point is in the first one. I voted Fate because his early play was scummiest. I said this a long time ago and it should not be mysterious.

2. In context, the thing you've quoted is about my introspection that I would not have made that Fate vote because I want him to steer the ship for me when I'm scum and I can usually make friends with him successfully in the early game regardless of my alignment. *Your* point about ship-steering is unrelated to that original context, so I wanted to make that clear.

3. I didn't check the continuity of when you quoted from or follow your hyperlink or anything; sorry. Early on, I wasn't sure because of meta considerations (as I think I mention in those early posts) and moved to clarify some things until I had time to check the meta. Later, that point remained AND she picked up votes AND I also had other suspects AND I was busy with boards and didn't have time to build a proper case.

I am aware that I have still not reread said game; I'll try to get to it soon.

4. I don't think making friends is a scumtell, though I used to a year or so ago. Rather, I think that coalition-building is an excellent town tactic. I think I first changed my opinion on this issue in Lay of Leithian where it was used against my scumteam.

5. Your inferences about how I use my vote have been incorrect. After my vote is placed, I do not necessarily mess with it again until I've had time to make a decision and so on. You have to look at my text to get an idea of how my mind is being made-up in the interim.

6. Your chart is incorrect because townIec assumes that Fate is town until he perceives evidence to the contrary. So those should *all* read "buddying." This game I perceived scumFate early on, and moved to UNbuddy him. This is the towntell I highlighted early on.

7. I think she is not Ariel and she is scum, but I agree that it's probably better to lynch someone else D1. I do suspect that at least one scum has a tracker and/or watcher ability if she is scum, though.

[kunkstar7]

@Kunk: Those are the reasons.

BS, you were calling me scum before I made that mistake.