Mini 277 - Webcomic Mafia - Game Over!

[Adele]

Yay, let's play!

Random

vote: Nemesis

[Adele]

PIG is sharing the middle of the alive list with me and thus should die quickly and painfully

Quick and painful? That's just wrong.

Y'know, because

slow

and painful's so much more entertaining

[Adele]

I was wondering about roleclaiming. Then I noticed there are 11 listed comics (I have read the entire archives of all but two ). Some of these comics have many complicated characters. Even using the most conservative methods (by "main character", I took to mean "those a semi-literate who's read the cast page and twenty random comics would know"), I reckon there are over 50 potential roles.

So I'm guessing that role-claims won't be too helpful.

[Adele]

No, I'm fairly certain he's a fan of all those strips... Y'know when you're at a restaurant or pic'n'mix or discount bookstore and you just can't make up your mind? I think it was like that.

[Adele]

FOS: everyone who flipped out over my bandwagon vote.

Yeah, I don't think it's any big deal. Adding to it would be a bit much (so I won't), but the third vote in a seven-to-lynch day is really nothing to freak out over. Or OMGUS, or FOS. In fact, if you don't like it, I reckon the best way to kill it stone dead is to roll your eyes and ignore it.

[Adele]

Unvote, Vote TSAGod

; retcon much?

It's too convenient to be able to say something less-than-perfectly-thought-out and blame it on sarcasm later.

Emoticons are your friend.

[Adele]

It didn't make any sense to me at all; I didn't see what you were getting at.

Most of what's written here is "verbal-style", so unless you are a very talented writer (and maybe even then) emoticons are helpful in portraying the spirit in which something is intended; they stand in for facial expressions, timing, and body language. They are a standard aspect of forum interactions, and if you don't like them, it's on you to pick up the slack by writing more clearly.

Sorry, but if you were ambiguous, that was

your

bad.

[Adele]

TSA's opinion seems to be along the lines of "third votes are not a big deal" so I felt - and feel - okay about putting a third vote on him. And I

do

believe the duty of clarity is on the writer, and that TSA confused a few people, myself included.

So I feel okay about my vote on him... but I'm not panicking over one vote on me, either.

[Adele]

unvote

just feels like Adele is grasping for a way to keep this bandwagon rolling.

No. I said I was okay with my vote. I didn't congratulate others for their votes, and I didn't encourage anyone to vote for TSA.

I'm more than happy to vote for people because I don't like their style - although this has happened more with people behaving in an outright unpleasant manner (I support Lynch All Jerks day 1 metagame policy for repeat "offenders"). I think that it's really tough not to be near-random in day 1's lynch. If no-one's doing anything outright scummy, or being a jerk, might as well go for someone who's style is confusing; at least it'll make the game easier from then on.

TSA hadn't (and hasn't) done enough to earn a lynch - it now looks as though the ambiguity was a one-off - a third vote, though? Yes.

[Adele]

Trying to kill the badwagon after it doesn't pick up?

No, trying to explain my actions and acquiesce to the town's wishes.

In case you didn't get it: I didn't understand what TSA was getting at. I saw other people appear confused. I saw him trying to explain it. I thought it might be a retcon. I placed a vote on him - his third, which, from what had been said, seemed like a small deal to people in this game. The end.

[Adele]

Akonas added one after me.

[Adele]

And as for bandwagons, I'm for them as long as they don't have an obvious cause as done by the bandwagon. Officially scumminess is okay, though, but a mildly scummy thing that very likely isn't a real tell angers me.

Okay, TSAGod, if you want to get all self-righteous about how obvious your sarcasm should have been, you're going to have to work on the clarity of your writing. I've read this five times and I still can't figure out what you're trying to say. If I were to translate it into brief, coherent sentences you would be saying:

I'm in favor of bandwagons, as long as there isn't a reason for them. Scummy behavior is okay, but mildly scummy behavior isn't.

I think he's saying: "bandwagons are okay if they are caused by solid scum tells, not weak ones. Don't bandwagon for the sake of bandwagoning"

[Adele]

I'm sick of trying to guess at what I think he's saying. He should learn to write sentences that don't contain grammatically dubious constructs like "an obvious cause as done by the bandwagon" or "officially scumminess."

And, secondarily, I would disagree with his views on solid vs. weak scum tells. In my experience, there aren't many, if any, solid scum tells, but there are lots and lots of weak ones. So my approach is to look for players who've committed several of them and place my vote there.

QFT

[Adele]

I could go for Akonas. He

has

been pretty aggressive. I don't like adding late votes without warning, so I'll say: unless something happens to change my mind in the next 24 hours (claim, another vote or two on him, someone claims scum) I'll be voting for Akonas.

[Adele]

I'd like a claim from Akonas, please

[Adele]

Akonas, you really need to claim properly...

QFT.
We aren't asking you to believe in claiming. We're telling you: we don't trust you. We want a claim, and that's where your best survival chances (if a townie) lie. Sorry.

[Adele]

I recently played a game which scum won by attacking each other. I agree that it shouldn't be a successful tactic, but it was, and still could be. You guys are knee-deep in WIFOM, and I suggest you drop this argument.

Oh, by the way, Akonas still hasn't claimed. Little pet peeve of mine, things like that slipping under the radar.

[Adele]

I'm not going to claim. In this game, there's really no reason to, as it won't really gain the town anything.

FoS: Adele

. Why are you pushing for a tell so much?

A claim isn't going to be useful at this point

. And if scum are supposed to kill certain people, then wouldn't having people claim let them know who to nightkill for a win? Seems kind of scummy to me.

I wouldn't ask for a claim if I thought it was useless, let alone harmful, but to be honest, I requested one for

your

sake. You're pretty near to being lynched and it's fairly standard to give people that opportunity. You don't want to take it? Okay.

vote: Akonas

[Adele]

Sorry if I'm wrong, but don't I have 1 and Arkonas 5?

What are you talking about?

Last edited by Aelyn on Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

[Adele]

grr... you should have at least given him a chance

You know...

another

one...

because he

might

have changed his mind... oh well

[Adele]

Yeah, I know

[Adele]

FoS Thok and StevieT92: Please let him claim before lynching.

To be fair, he had every chance, and seemed to have made his mind up pretty irrevocably...

And

I'm not going to claim

. In this game, there's really no reason to, as it won't really gain the town anything.

FoS: Adele.

Why are you pushing for a tell so much?

A claim isn't going to be useful at this point.

(underlining not original; added for emphasis by me)

[Adele]

Yep. I've let the mod know.

[Adele]

Isn't it rather more likely there are protection-related roles / roleblockers etc?

[Adele]

The Roleblocker should probably aim at the same person again and see what happens.

Should he? How do you know the scum can't choose who to send out? Or maybe you're scum and know the lack of kill had nothing to do with a roleblocker.

FOS: bertrand

. That post could easily have positive intention behind it, but it could just as easily be scummy.

[Adele]

@Adele-I've been in at least two mini's with a cult in place of a normal mafia; however in both cases the cult had a limit to the total numbers of recruits and also had the option to nightkill people instead of recruiting.

Erm, what question of mine are you answering here? The only one I can see is this:

Isn't it rather more likely there are protection-related roles / roleblockers etc?

Protection roles

are

commoner than cults; that question was semi-rhetorical. What question were you answering - or did you just want to imply I said something that I didn't?

[Adele]

...'K, things have kinda stalled. Any ideas on how to keep ourselves talking? Might comic-claims be handy (ie. "I'm from QC" / "I'm from order of the stick" etc)?

[Adele]

No. Claiming of any kind is not a good idea...

The poweroles will be giving themselves away, very bad idea. Really really awful.

I'm cool with not doing it, but I don't agree with the power-role statement. You might be able to figure role out from character, but not comic. All it'd do is limit options for later full roleclaims.

However, yeah, I agree, there's no solid upside. I'm gonna have to do a reread. Darn.

@everyone: getting a bit lurky here. Could you all at least check in? Try to say something, but even if you've not got any content to add, say "Hi, I'm here, blah blah blah"

[Adele]

Vote: Thok

[Adele]

Unvote

then.

We have a problem; we bandwagoned a townie yesterday and no-one got on it in a particularly scummy way. This is just Day 1, mark 2.

Can anyone think of a gambit that's likely to raise contention and so bring out some scummy behaviour? First person to suggest something useful gets a cookie... heh, or should that be a pancake ?

(btw, in past years I've given up lying for Lent, but I don't think that would be too smart this year )

[Adele]

I think we're stuck with a random bandwagon again today.

vote: Thok

HEADS UP: That's 4 votes with 6 to lynch. No jump-ons please; let's give him a fair chance to claim or whatever.

[Adele]

I am Marten Reed from Questionable Content, I use Pintsize to find if people are townies or scum.

It seems really early to be claiming cop, especially when you don't have some really handy info for our perusal... unless Thok was the guy who came up innocent?

How does Pintsize determine the role? Also, he's a perverse little fellow, can he be trusted? Just saying, ministry of defence came round marten's place to do stuff to him and he sends new neighbours welcome baskets of bestiality porn...

Would you be prepared to fully quote your PM? I really don't know if I'd want any other cops to come out now, since it's possible there are two cops in the game, and since they'd be at risk too; although they'd have at least 2 innocent results to present, which I guess is better than nothing... what do other people think of this (

without claiming

)?

[Adele]

I reckon we should bandwagon to see how they react, and if it gets close to lynch and we're bandwagoning an innocent that Nemesis knows of, he steps in before (possibly directly before) that innocent is called upon to claim. To that end,

Vote: TSAGod

[Adele]

I'm personally waiting on, like, a single comment on the plan I suggested (post 246, I think). Wouldn't this give us the benefits of Nemesis' info without the downsides?

I doubt bribery would work - we don't know how much any one of them would need from us, and we can't negotiate. It's likely they believe they have a good chance of getting both WCs and scum win might be their Major WC so they care more about that then anything else.

Besides, even if one did come forward, we couldn't trust him; he's

scum

.

[Adele]

When you are bandwagonning to get a reaction, you don't go out and claim it. Either this is a bad play, or an attempt to warn your scumbuddies.

Hmm, yeah, that makes sense, if we were bandwagoning

just

for a reaction. But that's neither the only thing nor even the main thing. The point of the bandwagons is to find someone scummy-looking who Nemesis doesn't stick up for. If they make themselves look scummi

er

, that's additional advantage, but I hope we're not just counting on that.

[Adele]

Sorry, Aelyn.

Thok, I'd like to hear a claim from you - Pie's gonna have to make account for this request later, it's no free pass.

[Adele]

Pie, did you roleblock Thok night 1 then? How about Night 2? If Thok was roleblocked 2 no-kill nights, that does look bad for him...

Unvote

for now.

[Adele]

Woo-hoo! Coron, looking forward to hearing from ya!

[Adele]

...

eh, we've waited longer. Who better to resuscitate this game, if we can hold out for a coupla days?

[Adele]

Um... I dunno. I'm not too "with it" right now, sorry. I'll try to say something helpful later tonight.

[Adele]

We are allowed to quote our PMs in this game, remember. Have you excluded relevant info? If not, why not quote the PM directly and fully?

On the other hand, that does sound like the kind of role that Aelyn'd write. It makes sense to me. It also fits El Chupacabre's character.

If roleblocking protects your major, then Pie did you a favour, huh? If you die, do you automatically lose your major win condition or do you win on it so long as you target no females prior to your death?

I suppose I also ought to mention I'm female.

would EBWOP but this occured to me before I hit "submit": once you hit a female character, you've lost your major win condition, so it'd be best advisable for you to use your roleblock to assist the town... giving advantages/disadvantages to people telling the truth (they may reason others are lying so they should claim female to avoid your attention, but once you lose your major wc they'll be your likely focus). Okay, I'm too burned out to think this through any further. I'm off to bed now. bye.

[Adele]

Do some basic thinking, Fuldu. Either I'm telling the truth, or I'm not.

If I'm telling the truth, that information is useful to him; not only does it protect his major wc, but if he loses it later, it lets him know he has power over me; that he

can

role-block me.

If I'm lying, then I'd be male. Why not say so? After all, there's no harm whatever in Thok targetting me if I'm a guy.

So what exactly are you accusing me of?

[Adele]

Wow, Fuldu, you're advocating really selfish play. Shouldn't pro-towner's be interested in win-win, rather than this "oh, I'm okay with screwing over my allies" attitude?

[Adele]

I didn't analyse it from every angle, to be honest. I can't claim there's been some huge gain, true enough, but I also don't see that anything was

lost

. It was a tiny action, which you're blowing way out of proportion. It's a storm in a teacup. No real gain, no real loss. (shrug)

[Adele]

Nah, that's what I got from it too. If we'd all claimed before he came out with this ability, it might've revealed a couple of liars.

[Adele]

I think Thok's roleclaim is suffecient enough where we can lay off him at least for now.

I concur.

[Adele]

I'd forgotten you claimed cop, Nemesis...

Does it make Thok a bigger target? I guess so...

[Adele]

Yeah, I was being dim.

[Adele]

Anything in particular, Coron?

I don't know why I can't seem to engage with this game; I'm really sorry that I've been so distant, it's just that... I haven't been able to "hook into it". I'll do a reread and try to get pissed off with someone soon.

[Adele]

/baa

it's better than anything I've got

Vote: VitaminR

[Adele]

Coron, either VitaminR is suspicious or he's not (I say he is, obviously).

If he is, then the people on his bandwagon are doing the right thing and are suspicious.

If he's not, then the people on the bandwagon are suspicious but you should back off VitaminR.

How can you logically cast doubt on both? Like Thok says, you're trying to have it both ways but, more to the point, I think there's a true dilemma here between the two.

[Adele]

I'm sorry for my absence; I don't need replacing, I'm just kind of away. I'll be back on Wednesday, and I'll be opinionated

[Adele]

Black Mage is a Bad Guy. He happens to be with the "light warriors", but is evil, reveling in hadokens that siphon off the love in the world, raising divorce rates. He killed a townie. He needs to tell us his minor and we have to seriously consider dropping him. I have no doubt he'd assist scum in order to get his minor condition - we can't risk having him in the endgame, even assuming he's not the sk, with Fighter-killing being only his minor win condition and his major being killing us all.

[Adele]

It's probable that there are 3 scum left, right? Assuming Nemesis is sane, then (which I think is safe, looking at the flavour; Pintsize is insane, Marten reinterprets him. Plus I know I'm good), it appears that the three unconfirmeds are scum. HOWEVER, if Nemesis has hit a GF, then only 2 of the 3 unconfirmeds are scum (still pretty good odds, but not spectacular in a likely LyLo).

I, for one, would like full-PM quotes including both WCs from the three unconfirmeds ASAP (limit how much time they have to make them up).

[Adele]

FOS: Thok

like there's no tomorrow.

[Adele]

Oh for smeg's sake, I am so close to attempting to invoke "Lynch All Liars" right now. Thok? Claim!

(Also, Stevie and TSA, claim plz kthxbye)

[Adele]

I'll claim tonight after I get back from the movies.

...We're still waiting...

Okay. Thok's SK, no doubt, and likely the "head blown off" killer of Bertrand (IIRC). Still, I for one would like full-PM claims from Stevie and TSA before night falls so if they

are

scum together, they don't get more opportunity to work together on good claims. That's why I'm not adding my vote yet.

[Adele]

You are Ryan, the boy-turned girl from Abstract Gender. Since you have been through so much, you have learned to avoid danger - you can't die at night.

Confirm by PM, along with any questions you may have.

Minor victory condition: Survive to the Endgame
Major vivtory condition: Have the town win.

There ya go!

[Adele]

Yeah, I don't believe that. Maybe it's:
1) the typos (I haven't seen any typos from Aelyn elsewhere in this thread, yet this short quote has at least two)
2) the minimal, humourless flavour that doesn't deal with Ryan's feelings or thoughts on the situation

or

his character
3) the fact that Ryan's new name (Rachel) isn't mentioned
4) the way this role appears

too

pro-town; Ryan's not especially altruistic (by which I mean, extraordinarily), most allegiance win conditions (such as "town win") are minors, as Aelyn himself said - so why is Ryan's major win condition the town win?

Or maybe it's something else

[Adele]

We have more than just those, don't forget:

Example claim:

You are Mega Man, the remarkably stupid droid from Bob and George. You may not be the brightest bulb in the box, being programmed to be stupid and all, but your heart is in the right place. Plus you have an awesome gun. You know that you have to rid the webcomics of the evil people trying to take it over, and you figure your special power to absorb abilities of things you kill could be helpful. Plus it gives you a great opportunity to better yourself! Each night, you can use any one of your night actions - initially, you only have the ability to kill, but whenever you kill anyone you gain any night abilities they may have. Note you can only use one ability each night.

Confirm by PM, along with your first night choice and any questions you may have.

Minor victory condition: Have the town win.
Major victory condition: Absorb at least two abilities.

VitaminR's claim:

You're Fighter, the fighterest fighter in 8-Bit Theater. You want to help people, which is why you're a light warrior, and so is your bestest friend Black Mage. He's such a nice guy, you can't imagine what life would be like without him. If Black Mage gets lynched, and you're part of that lynch, you'll be so overcome with grief that you killed your besterest friend that you'll commit suicide.

It's taken until now for me to realise that these PMs might not be easily faked at all - apart from picking a person and role, there's a very specific "voice" to them that most of us (myself in particular) can detect, but probably not imitate. I definately want TSA's PM, and I'm starting to think full-pm quotes from everyone would be good (although I'd suggest we leave that until at least tomorrow).

[Adele]

I'm starting to think full-pm quotes from everyone would be good (although I'd suggest we leave that until at least tomorrow).

Actually, I think we're likely to be lynching Stevie tomorrow so the Nemesis-confirmed players wouldn't want to claim before the day after tomorrow - is today Day 4? If today's Day 4 then I'd be interested in mass full claim on Day 6 (assuming the game's still in play).

Where's TSA with his claim? He posted elsewhere onsite about 14 hours ago - cutting and pasting from the inbox takes 2 minutes.

[Adele]

Unofficial Vote Count

Thok: 2 (Fuldu, Nemesis)
TSAGod: 1 (Thok)

Not Voting: TSAGod, Adele, Coron, Stevie

4 to lynch

btw, Coron hasn't posted in this thread since last Wednesday, TSAGod hasn't posted in this thread for a full week (although he has posted 3 times in other threads since); and chance of a

prod, please, mod?

[Adele]

EBWOP: said "and chance of a prod", meant "

any

chance of a prod".

[Adele]

Well, do you agree that Thok and Stevie are clearly both naughty people?

[Adele]

Because his claim looks so incredibly faked.

You are Ryan, the boy-turned girl from Abstract Gender. Since you have been through so much, you have learned to avoid danger - you can't die at night.

Confirm by PM, along with any questions you may have.

Minor victory condition: Survive to the Endgame
Major vivtory condition: Have the town win.

Yeah, I don't believe that. Maybe it's:
1) the typos (I haven't seen any typos from Aelyn elsewhere in this thread, yet this short quote has at least two)
2) the minimal, humourless flavour that doesn't deal with Ryan's feelings or thoughts on the situation or his character
3) the fact that Ryan's new name (Rachel) isn't mentioned
4) the way this role appears too pro-town; Ryan's not especially altruistic (by which I mean, extraordinarily), most allegiance win conditions (such as "town win") are minors, as Aelyn himself said - so why is Ryan's major win condition the town win?

Or maybe it's something else

Compare Stevie's claim to the ones quoted in posts 462 and 463.

[Adele]

I think you guys wouldbe better off lynching Stevie rather than me.

I mean, I know I'm biased, but if he's part of a 3 person mafia group (with some godfather that's already Nemesis-investigated), it's useful to keep the SK around as a quasi-vig.

Also, I've already got my major victory; it's not like I need to kill Fighter a second time or something.

(In all honesty, lynching me yesterday would have been a good play for town. Lynching me today isn't nearly as useful.)

Hmm... interesting. But how do we know you'll support the town's aims? You may decide it's in your best interests to support the scum's WCs - or just think, "screw 'em!"

[Adele]

You're still able to kill at night, correct? I don't trust you not to hit town in the expectation that'll help you survive longer.

Vote: Thok

so we can at least expect a max of one townie death tonight.

Given how obsessively TSAGod's been lurking, of course, there's the question as to whether to lynch him or Stevie (who still hasn't answered the points raised about his claim) tomorrow - assuming (as I am) that our attitude to Nemesis' results has not changed in the meantime. I think Stevie'll be the right decision, for the reasons I've already given and more.

[Adele]

um... could we get a votecount? I think Thok's one away...

Just waiting on the hammah-droppah

[Adele]

so... just waiting for

TSAGod, Coron or Stevie

to drop the hammer on Thok, or

anyone

to suggest a sensible alternative.

[Adele]

Well, wouldn't lynching stevie then mean the possibility of two townie deaths tonight? Shouldn't we get it down to a single group and then kill the members of that group?

[Adele]

Unvote, Vote: Stevie

[Adele]

Why are you lynching someone that can be tested?

By who? Thok can test your unnightkillableness, but that's not evidence of the rest of your claim, certainly not your allegiance. Is it even more

common

for people who can't be nightkilled to be town than scum? I don't think it is. Add in all the problems with your claim (which you, obviously, can't now attempt to answer to), and you've got some good reasons there for wanting you dead.

Coron (and everyone), what if, instead of asking Thok to target you tonight, we asked him to target TSAGod? I mean, now he's got his wc and seems happy to go along with the town, why not ask him to act as a

de facto

vig, and take out our probable second scum, leaving us with, at worst, one to try to draw out through a mass claim or something?

[Adele]

I'd rather partially confirm someone without them having to die, thnx.

Huh? Who are you talking about here?

TSAGod, who I suggested that we ask Thok to vig tonight but Coron thinks we may as well let be until the morning. I disagree, for the record.

[Adele]

Erm... I think you're lynched, Stevie. Coron, Fuldu, Thok and I are all voting for you, and it's 4 to lynch, so you're dead.
So... were you evil? May as well 'fess up now.

[Adele]

It was a good game, a fun game (although it took a little while in getting started). I do think the town was radically overpowered - yes, I self-protected every night, and I stand that, because (a) I'd rather see you all die and lose my minor than my major and (b) a self-protecting townie's probably a stronger role anyway than a doc (I'm slightly disappointed no-one ever tried to kill me).

In fact, I do think this game was unbalanced in the town's favour. Perhaps if there had been an SK (like if Thok

had

been SK) and a mafia godfather, as we suspected earlier, or if the mafia could get a second kill at night if they hit a WC or something... I think with a straight 3 against 9, you need an up-powered mafia and a down-powered town.

btw, does anyone know what Tyfo's "I hate myself" code was about??

[Adele]

oh, I didn't notice nale was investigation-gf. Sorry bout that.