SSK(Under Zwet's Evil Mind Powers)'s Random Mafia XL Day 3

[danakillsu]

@Mod

, please edit Wraith's last post. Thanks.
It obviously is not something that belongs here, and might be something that doesn't belong anywhere.

vote: Prokhor

for having a ridiculous username.

[danakillsu]

I like where my vote is. Nervous OMGUSing scum is nervous.

[danakillsu]

Wait, I have a better idea.

unvote, vote: mafia

Psssssh... save yourself some time and just vote for Prokhor. That has more chance of actually lynching the mafia.

[danakillsu]

Unfortunately, you did not, Kitoari.

[danakillsu]

And btw, chesskid3 is quoting the mod without quoting the mod, since quoting the mod is illegal. He is proving to TF that lynching "mafia" will not do anything.

[danakillsu]

Really sorry I haven't posted lately. I will do so this afternoon.

[danakillsu]

I am reading now and will post as soon as I'm done reading.

[danakillsu]

Unvote Vote: FrozenMirror

Not just for the towntells thing, but also because his attack on chesskid in his latest post seemed very opportunistic in light of Tasky's back-and-forth with chesskid.
As far as Prokhor is concerned, no, I don't have any hard feelings, obviously, but I think there is some truth to the fact that a random wagon is hard to start on scum and that only one vote joined me when I pushed for Prokhor votes. This means that I find chesskid to be town, and Prokhor to be just as scummy as ever.

[danakillsu]

Wow. This is craziness. No one has thought twice about what I said concerning FrozenMirror? I do not think chesskid is scum at all. I have experience with him, and my townreads on newbs are, to this point, infallible.

[danakillsu]

Chesskid @139 – Further proof that his ability to make solid gut reads is as compromised as ever.

Chesskid @ 151 – Townpoints for WMC posting fluff? Boggle …

So far I’d be happy to see Helgast, WMC or IH swing. Sleepless is active lurking. Chesskid has reverted to VI status.

That is pretty obviously an attack on chesskid. I did not say that you were attacking him in a personal way, or that you were sure he was scum, but your marginalizing of his viewpoint seems more than convenient for you.

[danakillsu]

Dana – Let’s look at your reasons for saying I’m scum.

1. ‘The towntells thing’ as you put it. Please explain again how that is scummy? Because if you think my saying that I don’t believe in behavioral town-tells is a scum-tell I’d love to see why.
2. ‘My attack on Chess is opportunisitc’. Funny. You do know that I’m asserting he’s just a bad Town player, not scum right. And that I listed THREE separate players who need to hang. Hard for me to be making an opportunistic attack on a player who we’ve never said was scum or intended to vote for. Solid Jackson!

If you’ve got something of substance let me know.

First off, your pitiful attempt at condescension makes me laugh. The fact that you are resorting to calling anyone who opposes you worthless indicates a certain degree of nervousness.
But I will also answer your two points.
1. Not believing in town tells is very scummy indeed. Why? Take this situation for instance. Supposing that chesskid is town, and that you are scum, you want to make chesskid seem suspicious, although you can avoid OMGUS by just calling him a VI. But it would ruin your position if we were sure the chesskid was town, since he has expressed suspicion of you. Therefore, if you could convince me that my towntell on chesskid is just an illusion, you could get me to vote for someone that I would normally not have voted for that is not scum. So from my PoV (which is that there ARE towntells) any PoV that tries to say there are NO towntells is attempting to blur the lines and get me to vote for people that are not scum.
2. You don't get what I'm saying, even after chesskid said it himself? You are trying to brush aside chesskid as a noob instead of voting for him, because OMGUS voting is more obviously scummy.

[danakillsu]

2. Chesskid is a VI. Look at his games. As with dealing with all VIs you have to know how to filter out the inherent VI-ness and get to the behavior that transcends VI status and can indicate Town versus Scum play. Just like dealing with other VIs like Vezok or Furcolow here on site.

And the behavior that transcends VI status conveniently does not include anything negative about you. This is what I find MOST scummy. And yes, unless you can prove a previous statement of it, this particular belief about mafia theory is a scumtell.

[danakillsu]

Perhaps you don't understand what I'm saying, Kito. I think I said it pretty clearly, but I'll say it again in detail. UNLESS he can prove that this is something he actually believes by showing me somewhere else that he said it when he was town, this "theory" of his is a scumtell, because I don't know if he actually believes it, and its implications are beneficial to scum.

[danakillsu]

Dana – You standard for what is a Scum-tell really is interesting.

Can you ‘prove’ that my personal stance (and not necessarily that of the other me) is more likely to come from scum than Town? If not than it’s not a scum-tell.

You can’t ascribe any logical scum-motivation for my belief that any Town-tell can be replicated by scum. Thus it’s not a scum tell. I prefer to look for actual scummy behavior.

If I was reactionary and short-sighted (like Chesskid, for example) I’d claim your attack on me is scummy. But I’m not. Your attack is a Null tell since it can easily come from misguided Town as well as from foolish scum.

You keep blathering on about how I’m trying to discredit Chesskid because of his read on me. That’s incorrect. I call him a VI because he quite frankly is. He’s reactionary to the slightest criticism and has a documented history of poor reads. I’ll judge him by his votes and other relational factors – not the ‘information’ he presents in thread. Note despite his 'read' that I am scum he's yet to actually commit to a vote for me.

If you can ‘prove’ (since you are so fond of the word) that my stance on him is driven by anything other than personal experience do so. Your assertion that I am somehow worried about his ‘read’ is incorrect.

I already told you how it would benefit scum if everyone believed there were no towntells. The fact that you have ignored the one way that I told you that your "theory" would not be a scumtell (proving that you actually do believe this as town AND as scum) tells me that you realize that it IS a scumtell. You can keep saying "you haven't proved nuthin' ", or "I call chesskid a VI because he IS one", but that is not actual proof or argumentation. By the way, though, I find it interesting that you say "any towntell can be replicated by scum" but go on to say that you'll "look for actual scummy behavior". If towntells can be replicated by scum, then scumtells can be replicated by town. You might say "well, but town isn't TRYING to scumtell" but then again, scum isn't trying to scumtell either. Therefore, if there are no real towntells, there are no real scumtells, and we have no clue who to vote for. Your theory benefits scum hugely by making our lynches random.

[danakillsu]

Crisis averted, I won't need replacement.

This game is moving so slowly. I'm not really sure what to do; deadline's in three days and I don't really have a scumread on anyone besides chesskid. I could do a reread to check and make sure I'm not stuck in a tunnel, but..

Hm. The following people are town, I think:
Rain
FrozenMirror
Vezok (iffy)
Weapons

Not many, but it's something.

Kitoari, I know how easy it is to side with someone that sounds condescending so that you can call a fairly new player scum or at the very least completely ignore everything he says, but...really? Are you not thrown off at least a little by the fact that FrozenMirror has not responded to my last post directed at him, or really to my main point at all?

[danakillsu]

@FM
Granted there are no cut and dry tells. That is obvious. But let me put it this way, clear and simple. You must believe there are scumtells that can help the town figure out who is scum. Why do scum players every commit these actions?

[danakillsu]

EBWOP:
Why do scum players ever commit these actions?

[danakillsu]

scum make scum-tells because no-one is perfect. Scum have inherent inside knowledge that to some degree handicaps their ability to perfectly emulate Town play.

Exactly. Scum make scum-tells because they are scum and can't help it. They can't perfectly emulate town play. And in EXACTLY the same way, town players, no matter how bad they are, make town-tells because they are town and can't help it. They can't perfectly emulate scum play, even if they're horrible. Therefore, if there are scum-tells, there are town-tells. You have the logic to figure this out, and the fact that you are still adamantly saying there are no town-tells, and not proving that you have already believed this prior to this game, I believe that you are scum.

[danakillsu]

Therefore chesskid is either displaying town mentality, knowing that his death better serves the town than a no lynch, or he's doing a scum gambit to try to look as town as possible in the face of probable lynch. We really can't tell which one it is, so therefore it isn't really any indication of alignment.

Theory disagreement: This is only a null indicator if there's a 50-50 case of town mentality vs scum gambit.

I'm leaning town on chesskid.

I most definitely misjudged you at the start of the game.
/goodposting.

[danakillsu]

Deadline is Wednesday, guys. We can still lynch anyone we want, we don't have to resort to lynching a fairly obvtown player.

[danakillsu]

But once again we’ve pushed the theoretical on this discussion and you haven’t answered my question – how does my approach to Mafia theory regarding lack of useful Town tells qualify as something more likely to come from scum than from town?

I have answered this twice and will not do so again. Moar FM votes plz.

[danakillsu]

chesskid has not changed his play from what I can tell. I actually kind of respect that fact that he is giving us his honest opinion, however uninformed or unpopular it might be. It helps me to read him, and I say TOWN, my good sirs. Shall we pick someone else to lynch, before it's too late?

[danakillsu]

Any vig should for sure shoot Tasky. If he's a special kind of lyncher, we'll know upon his death. Not sure whether to believe WOMC, so I'll hammer him tomorrow if votes don't change really fast.

[danakillsu]

Sure.

unvote vote: IH

Better deadline lynch is better.

[danakillsu]

Guys, we all need to vote IH, no excuses, no brakes. It's too bad the mod is nowhere to be seen...

[danakillsu]

Not that lynching someone will matter with no mod. >.>

[danakillsu]

Best game ever, amiright?

[danakillsu]

Yes. That is exactly what it will do. No questions asked.

[danakillsu]

Replacing out of a dead game...smooth move.

[danakillsu]

The most messed up part of Kitoari's "yayifications" is that he wasn't actually on the lynch wagon.

vote: Kitoari

[danakillsu]

Well, scratch that, I counted wrong, but it is obvious that his vote was just an attempt to keep us from no lynching. And that actually makes it seem scummier, because if he was scum, he wouldn't know IH was anti-town, and would think hammering him would be to his advantage. So my vote stays where it is.

[danakillsu]

@ Kitoari
Well if that's your translation of what I just said, there's nothing I can do for you. It speaks for itself and does not in the least have the appearance of blindly following someone else.

[danakillsu]

@ Kitoari
Well if that's your translation of what I just said, there's nothing I can do for you. It speaks for itself and does not in the least have the appearance of blindly following someone else.

Your argument goes like this:
1) Kitoari voted IH to prevent a no-lynch.
2) Ih was anti-town.
3) HOWEVER, Kitoari didn't know IH was anti-town, which somehow makes him scummier.
4) Therefore Kitoari is scum.

No, it goes like this.
1) Kitoari voted IH to prevent a no-lynch, but not because Kitoari thought IH was scummy.
2) IH was anti-town, and Kitoari post saying how cool it was we lynched IH.
3) However, Kitoari didn't know IH was anti-town, so his bandwagon vote that helped lynch him makes him scummier.
4) Therefore, Kitoari is scum.

[danakillsu]

Chkflip, we meet again

I've done quite a bit of skimming and I think I get the gist of what's going on here but the game dying and restarting has kind of left it hanging so I'm going to ask that if anyone has any specific posts or post combinations they want me to read, just quote it or post the number and I'll read everything posted to me.

I know we already moved out of this phase but I need a little time to experiment with rule 9a, so excuse my next few votes XD

VOTE: the first wincon in my pm

Uhhh...people had better see what I see here.

unvote vote: themanhimself

And, Kitoari, I'm sorry, but I don't have time right now to respond to your case.

[danakillsu]

@Kitoari
You say I have scumpoints just because I don't want someone marginalizing the viewpoint of someone else who's calling them scum. I don't care if you think he's a VI, I'm surprised you think you can justify ignoring other players. You think you have the right to say whose viewpoint matters? Hmmm...that sounds a lot more arrogant than you're claiming I am.
Then you say I have scumpoints for strawmanning. Let's just say you're right. Faulty arguments =/= scummy posts. You can accidentally use faulty logic as town just as easily as you can as scum. And you can't prove that was intentional, because it wasn't.
You also say I called Prokhor town after he agreed with me. That's not true. Once again, goodposting =/= town posting. I agreed with him, and said so. That in no way means I think he can't be scum.
Finally, you say that I'm no better than you as far as the IH wagon. On the face of it, that's true. However, not only was I on the wagon well before you, but also we need to return to the post I voted you for. You were saying how great it was that we lynched an anti-town player when it was something you were practically forced into, almost as if you wanted town points for it. That is what I find scummy, and I did nothing of the kind.

[danakillsu]

O.o
Whaaaa? Doesn't that result of themanhimself's vote mean that he is currently a Serial Killer? That's the only role I can think of that has the wincon of surviving and another wincon (killing everyone else). That is why I am currently voting for him. If anyone can shed more light on the situation, it would be much appreciated.

[danakillsu]

my gf just left. catching up now

Scumslip. So who's your GF, anyway?

O.o
Whaaaa? Doesn't that result of themanhimself's vote mean that he is currently a Serial Killer? That's the only role I can think of that has the wincon of surviving and another wincon (killing everyone else). That is why I am currently voting for him. If anyone can shed more light on the situation, it would be much appreciated.

Lol this.
Elaborate.

Elaborate? I thought I made it pretty clear already. If he's voting for the FIRST wincon in his PM, he has more than one, and the one that is left over after the first is gone is that of a Neutral Survivor. The only role I can think of with two wincons, one of which is neutral survivor, is the SK.

[danakillsu]

@Dana makes sense, but wouldn't it be really stupid to do that?

Not necessarily. He might think that we wouldn't be able to figure it out, and that we might be willing to keep him around if we do indeed "lynch" his wincon and make him a survivor. But what we have on our hands now can really only be one of two things:
1. A player with a non-town wincon.
2. A player with a town wincon who doesn't want it anymore.
Do we really want either?

[danakillsu]

Oh. Okay.

unvote vote: vezopiraka

Feysal helped us immensely. The wagon on him never should have started.

[danakillsu]

I knew there was something wrong with what he was doing.

unvote vote: themanhimself

[danakillsu]

He's L-2, guys. I want the lynch as much as the rest of you, but we should give him a chance to clarify. Right?

I agree considering his role might not be standard at all.

[danakillsu]

Dude, you're not a VT if you have two wincons. I think you're caught flailing scum, and would not be angry at anyone for hammering you.

[danakillsu]

You might want to change the thread title. It threw me off greatly. Anyone else think it's weird that there's a TOWN poisoner? Kudos to anyone that can find where the Town Assassin or Poisoner came from (i.e. Good Roles/Bad Roles/Wiki Roles).

[danakillsu]

Also, just noticed we started with a miller and a naive cop. At least the mafia started with a traitor to balance things out.

[danakillsu]

Both from the wiki, eh? Thnx, chess. So our assassin appears to have not used his abilities at all. That's strange.

[danakillsu]

OHHHHHH....I understand now. He wanted to lynch one of his wincons, because then he would lose the whole jester thing, and then would only win with the town. I've really never heard of someone having to do two different things to win, but I guess he did.

[danakillsu]

vote: vezokpiraka

This seems like a good idea, since he was on the Feysal wagon, which was short-lived, but one of the weirdest wagons I have ever seen.

[danakillsu]

vote: end

Despite the fact that I love my role.

[danakillsu]

I was a PGO. Freakin' sweet.

[danakillsu]

LOL. Awesome play by me. I saved scum from a PGO.

.............
Curse you.