SSK(Under Zwet's Evil Mind Powers)'s Random Mafia XL Day 3

[Kitoari]

Crisis averted, I won't need replacement.

This game is moving so slowly. I'm not really sure what to do; deadline's in three days and I don't really have a scumread on anyone besides chesskid. I could do a reread to check and make sure I'm not stuck in a tunnel, but..

Hm. The following people are town, I think:
Rain
FrozenMirror
Vezok (iffy)
Weapons

Not many, but it's something.

[danakillsu]

Crisis averted, I won't need replacement.

This game is moving so slowly. I'm not really sure what to do; deadline's in three days and I don't really have a scumread on anyone besides chesskid. I could do a reread to check and make sure I'm not stuck in a tunnel, but..

Hm. The following people are town, I think:
Rain
FrozenMirror
Vezok (iffy)
Weapons

Not many, but it's something.

Kitoari, I know how easy it is to side with someone that sounds condescending so that you can call a fairly new player scum or at the very least completely ignore everything he says, but...really? Are you not thrown off at least a little by the fact that FrozenMirror has not responded to my last post directed at him, or really to my main point at all?

[chesskid3]

Well, tbh, I don't really care too much about being a deadline lynch.
Just remember to lynch my reads after, and not WMC because he's town eh? PLEASE?

[FrozenMirror]

Dana, if tells were cut and dry then this game would be extremely easy. If town always dropped town tells, and scum always dropped scum tells, then how could scum ever win the game? The entire basis of scum play for day 1 is to avoid scum tells, give town tells, and convince other people that players who aren't giving true scum tells are. After day 1 there are more things to consider like voting patterns and such, but the concept remains the same the entire game. Don't do things that scum does, and do things that town does. So if every scum is trying to do things that town does, then how can you possibly assign a particular action to something town is going to do?

You need to analyze the motives behind a player's action, not the action. Showing disinterest is simply an action that could either be genuine or faked. I doubt it would be terribly difficult to fake 6 characters of disinterest when at L-8. If you instead look at the motives behind WMC's play, you'll find exactly one post with scum hunting, and it isn't the best scum hunting. Everything else definitely could be coming from a survival motivated player instead of a scum hunting motivated player.

Town's motivations come from killing scum. Scum's motivations come from staying alive. Look at which motivations fuel each player. That is what real town tells are. Not this *yawn* OMG THAT WAS TOWN garbage.

That being said, there is some internal debate going on about how deeply we're committed to this ideal. I am the part of me that believes there are actions that benefit town more than scum that are difficult to fake, such as good scum hunting. Not impossible, but difficult. WMC hasn't done much of any of that.

If there isn't going to be a WMC lynch, I'd be fine going with any of the players who don't seem to be willing to scum hunt. Helgast is definitely a good example of this. IH and Kaleid are both guilty as well. I'd choose lynching chess over a no-lynch, but he definitely isn't the preferred choice.

[Tasky]

I want chesskid dead.
and no, I am not going to read all of your walls.

[Helghast]

I believe I called him scummy before I agreed that he was a VI. His play has been bad. It really looks like he's buddying/fefending WMC. 139 is horrid. The fact he believes WMC is town based on his *yawn* reaction/"towntell" is silly beyond belief. He either knows WMC is town based on him not being on his scum team or WMC is on his scum team.

So if Cheese is lynched then comes out scum then its safe to assume that Weapons is scum. Tbh I might not have played with cheese previously but I dont think he is a VI

I'm pretty sure none of you who are saying I'm scum actually think I'm scum.

Also, I don't normally like to repeat myself that much.

What makes you say this

Town's motivations come from killing scum. Scum's motivations come from staying alive. Look at which motivations fuel each player. That is what real town tells are. Not this *yawn* OMG THAT WAS TOWN garbage.

I agree but town also want to stay alive as long as possible.

@Feysal I've played and modded games elsewhere.

[danakillsu]

@FM
Granted there are no cut and dry tells. That is obvious. But let me put it this way, clear and simple. You must believe there are scumtells that can help the town figure out who is scum. Why do scum players every commit these actions?

[danakillsu]

EBWOP:
Why do scum players ever commit these actions?

[chesskid3]

I agree but town also want to stay alive as long as possible.

This is BS. I friggin volunteered to be a deadline lynch. I want my scumreads dead in quick sucession, and I am willing to get lynched for it to happen post morterm.

That's the friggin town mentality.

[FrozenMirror]

You must believe there are scumtells that can help the town figure out who is scum. Why do scum players every commit these actions?

I'm sorry, are you confused? I didn't realize that saying there's no such thing as a town tell because scum fake them means the same thing as saying there's no such thing as scum tells. Why in God's name would town try to fake a scum tell? Scum commit tells such as active lurking and fence sitting because if they do them cleverly enough to not get called out for it, they stay alive longer. This plays to their win condition. Scum give scum tells like making bad cases on town because of cognitive dissonance, they know their target is town and therefore have a more difficult time really believing in the case.

Some bad town players put effort in to staying alive when they should instead be finding scum. Sure, town doesn't

want

to die, but their win condition doesn't have a lot to do with staying alive whereas scum's does. The only benefit to staying alive as town is that town is getting another shot at lynching scum, and that should be town's mentality.

Therefore chesskid is either displaying town mentality, knowing that his death better serves the town than a no lynch, or he's doing a scum gambit to try to look as town as possible in the face of probable lynch. We really can't tell which one it is, so therefore it isn't really any indication of alignment.

[chesskid3]

Paragraph 3 would be a great example of why Frozen needs to go tomorrow.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Again, I don't like repeating myself. Mafia sucks when the game turns into a shouting match.

inb4 irony

[FrozenMirror]

@Dana

– You can continue to put forth theoretical reasons why scum may call someone a VI. You continue to not show how someone calling another player a VI (rightfully so, BTW) is MORE likely to come from scum than not. It’s easy to conjecture a scenario where any particular action possibly could come from scum. Showing that any action is more likely to come from scum than Town is far different than that.

My other me already addressed this but I’ll just say – scum make scum-tells because no-one is perfect. Scum have inherent inside knowledge that to some degree handicaps their ability to perfectly emulate Town play. Good player are able to effectively disguise their scum play as Town but aren’t able to long term replicate it completely. The psychological conflict of trying to present as truth facts they know to by lies is a powerful thing.

Helgahst @283

– You gave a weak reason for voting for WMC and pretty much stopped scum-hunting. The rest of your comments have been along the lines of ‘Wow, this day is long’ and ‘Who is under suspicion again?’.

Sleepless Ass @291

– You continued attempts to characterize WMC’s FOURTH vote of the day as a joke vote is noted. I’ll explain it one more time for you. WMC went out of his way to say someone was scum in a post but chose to vote for Rule, a vote guaranteed to not lynch scum. That’s not a Pro-Town mindset.

Chess at 302 and 308

is a prime example of why he’s a VI. Rather than to continue to push for his ‘reads’ to show how they are scum he just states that they are good. Chess – rather than continue to cry that your reads are ‘Gold’ and should be followed how about demonstrating why.

A quick look through Tasky’s ISO makes me believe he well could be a Chesskid lyncher.

This game is a prime example of why Power-role rich games are so stagnant. Everyone is too busy lurking trying to not draw attention thanks to their Awesome Role ™ thinking they are a precious and unique snowflake. When most likely most everyone has a role the importance of your individual role is that much greatly diminished.

[Tasky]

A quick look through Tasky’s ISO makes me believe he well could be a Chesskid lyncher.

lol.
well, lynch chesskid and you'll find out, right?

[Helghast]

I agree but town also want to stay alive as long as possible.

This is BS. I friggin volunteered to be a deadline lynch. I want my scumreads dead in quick sucession, and I am willing to get lynched for it to happen post morterm.
But if you wrong then you being dead, that wont help town. It'll be better to go after those people you have scum reads again.
Please post a list of those that you think are scum, like you are sure.
That's the friggin town mentality.

Helgahst @283

– You gave a weak reason for voting for WMC and pretty much stopped scum-hunting. The rest of your comments have been along the lines of ‘Wow, this day is long’ and ‘Who is under suspicion again?’.

Sleepless Ass @291

– You continued attempts to characterize WMC’s FOURTH vote of the day as a joke vote is noted. I’ll explain it one more time for you. WMC went out of his way to say someone was scum in a post but chose to vote for Rule, a vote guaranteed to not lynch scum. That’s not a Pro-Town mindset.

Chess at 302 and 308

is a prime example of why he’s a VI. Rather than to continue to push for his ‘reads’ to show how they are scum he just states that they are good. Chess – rather than continue to cry that your reads are ‘Gold’ and should be followed how about demonstrating why.

What? Who said I've stopped scum hunting? You are making weak accusations and assumptions here.
You say I gave a weak reason? But you gave that exact same reason right now! On what you said to Sleepless. So are you saying your reasons are also weak or are you just confusing yourself and contradicting yourself.
If cheese is a VI then scum are all over him in turns of voting since its easy. Has cheese been VI before? Does he always play like this, or only when he's VI?

[FrozenMirror]

I'd like everyone who thinks chess is scum to quickly glance through his ISO in this game:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15478
He is scum, and fights to the bloody end to stay alive. Look at him now. Probably not scum.

Hel, I'm also voting WMC because of a severe lack of scum hunting. Look at the past 10 (literally 10, I counted them) posts he's made.

[chesskid3]

Oh god please don't bring that game up. That was me replacing a scum who was at L-1 in MYLO with BOTH PARTNERS BUSSING RAGE.

Anyway I'm going to have to reread Frozen because him defending me doesn't agree with my earlier opinion of him, unless he's doing it for towncred. BACK LATER WITH THOUGHTS

P.S. I think I got kicked out of home. Go me.

[Kitoari]

A quick look through Tasky’s ISO makes me believe he well could be a Chesskid lyncher.

lol.
well, lynch chesskid and you'll find out, right?

...

Yeah I can't ignore this.

Vote: Tasky

[Feysal]

Interesting read. I don't think Chesskid is scum, and after reading that game I feel only more confident about that. Replaced into a hopeless situation and still tried to fight his way out. Here, he has been completely different.

Curious detail: Chesskid yawned at the case on him in that game. So much about that being a town tell, if anyone seriously believed that.

I'm not seeing us making much progress. There is some discussion, but mostly it is the same points being repeated. No one has changed their mind or their vote. Well, given that I'm alone in voting IH and I don't see that leading anywhere, I suppose I'll change my vote.

Unvote: IH
Vote: WoMC

[chesskid3]

it is a town tell, that's why I tried it (((

[chesskid3]

goddamn busses man.

[danakillsu]

scum make scum-tells because no-one is perfect. Scum have inherent inside knowledge that to some degree handicaps their ability to perfectly emulate Town play.

Exactly. Scum make scum-tells because they are scum and can't help it. They can't perfectly emulate town play. And in EXACTLY the same way, town players, no matter how bad they are, make town-tells because they are town and can't help it. They can't perfectly emulate scum play, even if they're horrible. Therefore, if there are scum-tells, there are town-tells. You have the logic to figure this out, and the fact that you are still adamantly saying there are no town-tells, and not proving that you have already believed this prior to this game, I believe that you are scum.

[Kitoari]

Unvote: IH
Vote: WoMC

Oh, right. The unvote rule.

Unvote: chesskid3
Vote: Tasky

[Tasky]

A quick look through Tasky’s ISO makes me believe he well could be a Chesskid lyncher.

lol.
well, lynch chesskid and you'll find out, right?

...

Yeah I can't ignore this.

Vote: Tasky

what exactly can't you ignore?

[ProkhorZakharov]

Therefore chesskid is either displaying town mentality, knowing that his death better serves the town than a no lynch, or he's doing a scum gambit to try to look as town as possible in the face of probable lynch. We really can't tell which one it is, so therefore it isn't really any indication of alignment.

Theory disagreement: This is only a null indicator if there's a 50-50 case of town mentality vs scum gambit.

I'm leaning town on chesskid.