SSK(Under Zwet's Evil Mind Powers)'s Random Mafia XL Day 3

[Kitoari]

So you're saying I shouldn't have voted to prevent a NL?

[Kitoari]

So I'm kind of in a double bind here.

On one hand, SA and dana both come out of the gate with terrible cases against me.
On the other hand, if I vote one of them they'll go "OMG THAT'S OMGUS" without actually responding to any of the reasons that I voted them.

What do?

[gandalf5166]

So I'm kind of in a double bind here.

On one hand, SA and dana both come out of the gate with terrible cases against me.
On the other hand, if I vote one of them they'll go "OMG THAT'S OMGUS" without actually responding to any of the reasons that I voted them.

What do?

Vote em, like this.

VOTE: dana

[Kitoari]

damn it, I did a giant wall o' quotes on dana and I can't post it because of that database bug thing.

I'll split it up.

PART UNO:

@Mod

, please edit Wraith's last post. Thanks.
It obviously is not something that belongs here, and might be something that doesn't belong anywhere.

vote: Prokhor

for having a ridiculous username.

RVS vote, don't remember the context here.

Wait, I have a better idea.

unvote, vote: mafia

Psssssh... save yourself some time and just vote for Prokhor. That has more chance of actually lynching the mafia.

Or this, but he seems to end up tunneling based on an RVS vote?...

Unfortunately, you did not, Kitoari.

This was me not closing a bold I think.

Really sorry I haven't posted lately. I will do so this afternoon.

Can't wait.

I am reading now and will post as soon as I'm done reading.

Doo do do do...

Unvote Vote: FrozenMirror

Not just for the towntells thing, but also because his attack on chesskid in his latest post seemed very opportunistic in light of Tasky's back-and-forth with chesskid.
As far as Prokhor is concerned, no, I don't have any hard feelings, obviously, but I think there is some truth to the fact that a random wagon is hard to start on scum and that only one vote joined me when I pushed for Prokhor votes. This means that I find chesskid to be town, and Prokhor to be just as scummy as ever.

I'll have to go back and ISO prokhor - don't remember why dana found him so scummy.

Wow. This is craziness. No one has thought twice about what I said concerning FrozenMirror? I do not think chesskid is scum at all. I have experience with him, and my townreads on newbs are, to this point, infallible.

How pompous of you. It's too bad you're wrong this time though.

Chesskid @139 – Further proof that his ability to make solid gut reads is as compromised as ever.

Chesskid @ 151 – Townpoints for WMC posting fluff? Boggle …

So far I’d be happy to see Helgast, WMC or IH swing. Sleepless is active lurking. Chesskid has reverted to VI status.

That is pretty obviously an attack on chesskid. I did not say that you were attacking him in a personal way, or that you were sure he was scum, but your marginalizing of his viewpoint seems more than convenient for you.

Personally I think scum would want VI opinions, which have a worse hit:miss ratio to be more prevalent. Scumpoints for dana.

Dana – Let’s look at your reasons for saying I’m scum.

1. ‘The towntells thing’ as you put it. Please explain again how that is scummy? Because if you think my saying that I don’t believe in behavioral town-tells is a scum-tell I’d love to see why.
2. ‘My attack on Chess is opportunisitc’. Funny. You do know that I’m asserting he’s just a bad Town player, not scum right. And that I listed THREE separate players who need to hang. Hard for me to be making an opportunistic attack on a player who we’ve never said was scum or intended to vote for. Solid Jackson!

If you’ve got something of substance let me know.

First off, your pitiful attempt at condescension makes me laugh.

IRONY!

The fact that you are resorting to calling anyone who opposes you worthless indicates a certain degree of nervousness.
But I will also answer your two points.
1. Not believing in town tells is very scummy indeed. Why? Take this situation for instance. Supposing that chesskid is town, and that you are scum, you want to make chesskid seem suspicious, although you can avoid OMGUS by just calling him a VI. But it would ruin your position if we were sure the chesskid was town, since he has expressed suspicion of you.

He just said he thinks chesskid is town, in the post you quoted. Reading is tech.

Therefore, if you could convince me that my towntell on chesskid is just an illusion, you could get me to vote for someone that I would normally not have voted for that is not scum. So from my PoV (which is that there ARE towntells) any PoV that tries to say there are NO towntells is attempting to blur the lines and get me to vote for people that are not scum.

Playstyles are not scummy.

2. You don't get what I'm saying, even after chesskid said it himself? You are trying to brush aside chesskid as a noob instead of voting for him, because OMGUS voting is more obviously scummy.

I'm not too fond of chesskid myself, so I'm probably biased. However, your incessant defense of chesskid is noted.

[Kitoari]

PART DOS:

2. Chesskid is a VI. Look at his games. As with dealing with all VIs you have to know how to filter out the inherent VI-ness and get to the behavior that transcends VI status and can indicate Town versus Scum play. Just like dealing with other VIs like Vezok or Furcolow here on site.

And the behavior that transcends VI status conveniently does not include anything negative about you. This is what I find MOST scummy. And yes, unless you can prove a previous statement of it, this particular belief about mafia theory is a scumtell.

I'd have to check chess' posts to see what he said re: FM, but..

Perhaps you don't understand what I'm saying, Kito. I think I said it pretty clearly, but I'll say it again in detail. UNLESS he can prove that this is something he actually believes by showing me somewhere else that he said it when he was town, this "theory" of his is a scumtell, because I don't know if he actually believes it, and its implications are beneficial to scum.

.. I am forced to admit he explains himself here. I begrudgingly award town points to dana.

Dana – You standard for what is a Scum-tell really is interesting.

Can you ‘prove’ that my personal stance (and not necessarily that of the other me) is more likely to come from scum than Town? If not than it’s not a scum-tell.

You can’t ascribe any logical scum-motivation for my belief that any Town-tell can be replicated by scum. Thus it’s not a scum tell. I prefer to look for actual scummy behavior.

If I was reactionary and short-sighted (like Chesskid, for example) I’d claim your attack on me is scummy. But I’m not. Your attack is a Null tell since it can easily come from misguided Town as well as from foolish scum.

You keep blathering on about how I’m trying to discredit Chesskid because of his read on me. That’s incorrect. I call him a VI because he quite frankly is. He’s reactionary to the slightest criticism and has a documented history of poor reads. I’ll judge him by his votes and other relational factors – not the ‘information’ he presents in thread. Note despite his 'read' that I am scum he's yet to actually commit to a vote for me.

If you can ‘prove’ (since you are so fond of the word) that my stance on him is driven by anything other than personal experience do so. Your assertion that I am somehow worried about his ‘read’ is incorrect.

I already told you how it would benefit scum if everyone believed there were no towntells. The fact that you have ignored the one way that I told you that your "theory" would not be a scumtell (proving that you actually do believe this as town AND as scum) tells me that you realize that it IS a scumtell. You can keep saying "you haven't proved nuthin' ", or "I call chesskid a VI because he IS one", but that is not actual proof or argumentation. By the way, though, I find it interesting that you say "any towntell can be replicated by scum" but go on to say that you'll "look for actual scummy behavior". If towntells can be replicated by scum, then scumtells can be replicated by town. You might say "well, but town isn't TRYING to scumtell" but then again, scum isn't trying to scumtell either. Therefore, if there are no real towntells, there are no real scumtells, and we have no clue who to vote for. Your theory benefits scum hugely by making our lynches random.

An entire post full of Straw Manning. Scumpoints for dana.

Crisis averted, I won't need replacement.

This game is moving so slowly. I'm not really sure what to do; deadline's in three days and I don't really have a scumread on anyone besides chesskid. I could do a reread to check and make sure I'm not stuck in a tunnel, but..

Hm. The following people are town, I think:
Rain
FrozenMirror
Vezok (iffy)
Weapons

Not many, but it's something.

Kitoari, I know how easy it is to side with someone that sounds condescending so that you can call a fairly new player scum or at the very least completely ignore everything he says, but...really? Are you not thrown off at least a little by the fact that FrozenMirror has not responded to my last post directed at him, or really to my main point at all?

TBH, in retrospect, I think that FM was saying THERE ARE NO TOWN TELLS because he was a surv and didn't wanna diezorz.

scum make scum-tells because no-one is perfect. Scum have inherent inside knowledge that to some degree handicaps their ability to perfectly emulate Town play.

Exactly. Scum make scum-tells because they are scum and can't help it. They can't perfectly emulate town play. And in EXACTLY the same way, town players, no matter how bad they are, make town-tells because they are town and can't help it. They can't perfectly emulate scum play, even if they're horrible. Therefore, if there are scum-tells, there are town-tells. You have the logic to figure this out, and the fact that you are still adamantly saying there are no town-tells, and not proving that you have already believed this prior to this game, I believe that you are scum.

See above.

Therefore chesskid is either displaying town mentality, knowing that his death better serves the town than a no lynch, or he's doing a scum gambit to try to look as town as possible in the face of probable lynch. We really can't tell which one it is, so therefore it isn't really any indication of alignment.

Theory disagreement: This is only a null indicator if there's a 50-50 case of town mentality vs scum gambit.

I'm leaning town on chesskid.

I most definitely misjudged you at the start of the game.
/goodposting.

"Oh hey, this guy is agreeing with me! HEY GUYS HE'S NOT SCUM NOW."

chesskid has not changed his play from what I can tell. I actually kind of respect that fact that he is giving us his honest opinion, however uninformed or unpopular it might be. It helps me to read him, and I say TOWN, my good sirs. Shall we pick someone else to lynch, before it's too late?

It makes me really sad my pet lynch was derailed.

That being sad, I think chess is actually very likely town if dana is scum, because dana might've been able to use SEE I TOLD YOU SO for free towniepoints.

Sure.

unvote vote: IH

Better deadline lynch is better.

Guys, we all need to vote IH, no excuses, no brakes. It's too bad the mod is nowhere to be seen...

DANAKILLSU IS A FOUNTAIN OF IRONY.

YOU DID THE EXACT SAME DAMN THING I DID AND SOMEHOW I'M THE SCUM FOR IT?

I'm not even gonna continue, this is just hilarious.

Vote: danakillsu

[Kitoari]

Also I forgot to mention this, but you can't say "oh chesskid's not scum because of his playstyle" and then turn around and accuse FM of being scum because of his beliefs on mafia theory.

Combined with his last (pre-abandoning) day 1 posts dana is a magical hypocrisy generator.

More votes pls.

[gandalf5166]

Haha. You did what I was too lazy to do. Nice. VOTE DANA. VOTE SCUM.

[vezokpiraka]

Message received chesskid.

Sorry for the block.

[vezokpiraka]

V/La till Christmas Eve

[zwetschenwasser]

chkflip replaces Wraith, who requested replacement and themanhimself replaces espeonage.

[themanhimself]

Chkflip, we meet again

I've done quite a bit of skimming and I think I get the gist of what's going on here but the game dying and restarting has kind of left it hanging so I'm going to ask that if anyone has any specific posts or post combinations they want me to read, just quote it or post the number and I'll read everything posted to me.

I know we already moved out of this phase but I need a little time to experiment with rule 9a, so excuse my next few votes XD

VOTE: the first wincon in my pm

[chesskid3]

oh hey another dana wagon on d2.
wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[themanhimself]

@mod: Vote count much appreciated

[danakillsu]

Chkflip, we meet again

I've done quite a bit of skimming and I think I get the gist of what's going on here but the game dying and restarting has kind of left it hanging so I'm going to ask that if anyone has any specific posts or post combinations they want me to read, just quote it or post the number and I'll read everything posted to me.

I know we already moved out of this phase but I need a little time to experiment with rule 9a, so excuse my next few votes XD

VOTE: the first wincon in my pm

Uhhh...people had better see what I see here.

unvote vote: themanhimself

And, Kitoari, I'm sorry, but I don't have time right now to respond to your case.

[chkflip]

A few familiar faces! Many others... not so much. Hello everybody. /confirm replacement.

Glad there's only 20 pages. I'll be with you with some opinion very soon.

[Helghast]

I dont like this that already 2 people have basically role claimed so nonchalantly.

[vezokpiraka]

Deal with it.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I think that was a trap that dana bit.

And I watched BunnyLover.

[Nero Cain]

We lynched a town traitor.

FrozenMirror being a mason might suggest there is another mason around, depending on how the roles were randomized. Or not. Either way it should not matter, since with FrozenMirror gone we cannot confirm any mason claim.

mtc after football.

[Helghast]

Deal with it.

Why do it though?

[danakillsu]

@Kitoari
You say I have scumpoints just because I don't want someone marginalizing the viewpoint of someone else who's calling them scum. I don't care if you think he's a VI, I'm surprised you think you can justify ignoring other players. You think you have the right to say whose viewpoint matters? Hmmm...that sounds a lot more arrogant than you're claiming I am.
Then you say I have scumpoints for strawmanning. Let's just say you're right. Faulty arguments =/= scummy posts. You can accidentally use faulty logic as town just as easily as you can as scum. And you can't prove that was intentional, because it wasn't.
You also say I called Prokhor town after he agreed with me. That's not true. Once again, goodposting =/= town posting. I agreed with him, and said so. That in no way means I think he can't be scum.
Finally, you say that I'm no better than you as far as the IH wagon. On the face of it, that's true. However, not only was I on the wagon well before you, but also we need to return to the post I voted you for. You were saying how great it was that we lynched an anti-town player when it was something you were practically forced into, almost as if you wanted town points for it. That is what I find scummy, and I did nothing of the kind.

[Kitoari]

@Kitoari
You say I have scumpoints just because I don't want someone marginalizing the viewpoint of someone else who's calling them scum. I don't care if you think he's a VI, I'm surprised you think you can justify ignoring other players. You think you have the right to say whose viewpoint matters? Hmmm...that sounds a lot more arrogant than you're claiming I am.

Not really, but when someone has a proven track record of being horrendously wrong I don't think listening to him is going to be very productive.

Then you say I have scumpoints for strawmanning. Let's just say you're right. Faulty arguments =/= scummy posts. You can accidentally use faulty logic as town just as easily as you can as scum. And you can't prove that was intentional, because it wasn't.

You also say I called Prokhor town after he agreed with me. That's not true. Once again, goodposting =/= town posting. I agreed with him, and said so. That in no way means I think he can't be scum.

I'll respond to this more later.

Finally, you say that I'm no better than you as far as the IH wagon. On the face of it, that's true. However, not only was I on the wagon well before you, but also we need to return to the post I voted you for. You were saying how great it was that we lynched an anti-town player when it was something you were practically forced into, almost as if you wanted town points for it. That is what I find scummy, and I did nothing of the kind.

So you were voting me on the equivalent of A Jeep Standard tell. Excellent.

[themanhimself]

@mod: Vote count much appreciated

[zwetschenwasser]

I heard you the first time, my dear.

[zwetschenwasser]

The Man's Votecount:

Kitoari (1)-Sleepless Assassin
helghast (1)-WeaponsofMassConstruction
danakillsu (2)-gandalf, Kitoari
themanhimself (1)- danakillsu
the first wincon in my role pm (1)-themanhimself (effect: themanhimself will revert to a neutral survivor for the duration of the game)