Lay of Leithian Mafia: Game Over!

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Vote: Cobalt

Suffer not the witch to live!

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*hops*

Unvote, vote: Sensfan

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Elscouta called Cobalt his scum-buddy, SpyreX.

Why don't you hop on the SensFan-wagon, by the bye? I heard a rumour they were going to give away free marshmallow peeps to everyone on the wagon.

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The elscoutawagon is dumb.

People should get on the SensFanwagon. I mean, he's a fan of the Ottawa Senators and those are Canadian. Canadian!

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No evidence to suggest scum are more likely to do it though, it's just one of those things I find scummy.

What? Scummy actions are exactly those scum are more likely to do. Do you mean you think scum are more likely to do it, but you don't have any data to back it up?

SpyreX, pushing a random wagon is fun. Wagons based on crappy reasoning, however, are not.

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Dislike SPS still sticking to Sens wagon without further comment on events.

As far as I can tell, all that's happened so far is that xvart and Drippereth (naturally) have things which are wrong and misguided, which is pretty meaningless when it comes to determining alignments. The most relevant thing I've seen so far is Starbuck asking Iecerint to drop it three times in a row.

I feel like wagonning, but all the wagons are dumb.

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xvart seems to compulsively misrep/generalise. Agree/disagree? Scummy or not?
Jack made a random cop breadcrumb comment and and produces little content. I found that scummy. Do you agree?

Agree. Not. No (scum generally better off just killing cop).

CyberBob, I believe kmd was mocking this comment of xvart:

Knowing my alignment and the target I put on myself I felt/feel that there are probably some scum on my wagon right now, so I started pushing back.

Complete bull from Cyberbob. I'm sort of focusing in on the part about me, but that part is crap.

Really? You have problems with one bullet point, so it's complete bull? You do admit that you're looking at only that part, but why do you feel the need to call it complete bull? Seems uncalled for.

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Now this is a wagon I can get behind.

unvote, vote: Jack

, he seems to be acting deliberately unhelpful.

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You guys don't find cyberbob scummy at all?

No. In fact, I'm getting town vibes from his posts so far.

Jack, SpyreX, stop with the pointless posts. That's what General Discussion is for.

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The second part of this isn't okay. Are you saying that wagons with no reasoning are better than wagons with bad reasoning? I'd say that any reasoning is better than none. Plus, more pushing a pointless wagon.

You shouldn't reward craplogic. I mean, "Socrates is mortal, scum are mortal, thus Socrates is scum" is reasoning, but it's definitely worse than no reasoning.

And yes, I'm wagonning. I stay in that phase longer than most people as I'm a big fan of bandwagonning. Do you need examples of me acting this way when town?

Vote Count 12: Lynch

Starbuck - 1 - PaltryExcuse
Drippereth - 1 - SocioPath
Steam Powered Shovel - 1 - Elmocrates
xvart -

5

- Budja, Kmd4390, farside22, FeFiFoFum, Anon
Anon - 1 - Elscouta
MehPlusRawr - 1 - Papa Zito
xofelf - 2 - SensFan, Drippereth
Jack - 4 - SpyreX, J-Scope, curiouskarmadog, Steam-Powered Shovel
Cyberbob - 3 - Cobalt, Iecerint, Jack
Papa Zito - 1 - ooba
Cobalt - 3 - Cyberbob, Starbuck, xvart,

Not Voting (2): MehPlusRawr, xofelf

With 25 players alive it'll take 13 to lynch and 13 to no-Lynch.

There are no players in the

Halls of Mandos

, so right now there are no

Revive

or

Destroy

counts.

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Lack of asking for a claim is a dead giveaway, nice try though, Jack.

Wagoning may not be a scumtell, but pushing a pointless wagon is anti-town, and wagoning instead of scumhunting is anti-town. :X

Early-game bandwagonning is pro-town, certainly in big games. But you are right that I haven't done enough scumhunting; I just don't have a feel for this game. There's too much discussion about inconsequential tidbits.

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If you're playing in a way you would not describe as pro-town, you're doing something wrong.

I'm not saying I'm more likely to be town here, if that's what you're thinking. I'm taking a stance on what's good early-game play. Obviously my early-game play is based on my beliefs regarding what's good early-game play.

Iecerint, was I not allowed to react to Jack's fake daykill?

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SocioPath, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Don't you agree that people in a way that they feel benefits the town?

Iecerint, if we're not supposed to react to it, then why would scum need to alert their buddies? And I wouldn't have posted that if CB hadn't reacted first since I am aware that his reaction is most important.

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I'm going to give xofelf a chance to respond first, but I'll probably be voting for her unless she can explain things.

Elmocrates, lying would definitely be bad play from xofelfscum, but I really can't imagine town making that comment. Scum, under pressure to come up with something after Sens called her out for her previous post, I can imagine making that play.

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@SPS: Why did you think the Els wagon was dumb?

Because calling someone your scum-buddy in the RVS is a null tell.

Elmocrates, lying would definitely be bad play from xofelfscum, but I really can't imagine town making that comment.

Assuming Sens is scum & lying, why?

You're right: if Sens is making it all up, then obviously town make that comment. I mostly meant that I can't imagine town lying about something like that.

xofelf's latest post is enough to make

unvote, vote: xofelf

.

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I really dislike this implication that one of Sens/xofelf is scum because of the lying thing. A lot of this could be down to subjective views/misremembering and the taboo personal issues.

I think this type of thing often is, but SensFan is taking a very strong stance here and I'm quite willing to believe him. I think xofelfscum was hoping we'd just chalk it up to personal disagreement and leave it at that.

Jack, stop being useless.

Am I just being bandwagonned for playing my normal game here or does anyone have a real argument against me?

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@Steam-Powered Shovel

Do you need examples of me acting this way when town?

Am I just being bandwagonned for playing my normal game here or does anyone have a real argument against me?

Why do you feel the need to try and defend your actions through meta? If you think you're playing in a way that's pro-town, wouldn't you have a problem with people not liking your playstyle? Or at the least, not have a problem with how other people view your playstyle?

I don't particularly expect to be able to convince other people of the pro-townness of my playstyle. Even if I could, it would distract the town from more important matters. (This is not a good forum for theory debates.)

And it doesn't really matter how people view my playstyle as long as, knowing it is my playstyle, town lets me be. Obviously, if people want to lynch me Day 1 over my playstyle, I have a problem with how they view my playstyle.

Scum might defend using meta because they think they are playing to their town meta. So those two quotes look like a questionable defense, if that was their intention.

The first quote was in response to MehPlusRawr's "case" on me. He seemed to think that my bandwagonning was indicative of alignment. I figured examples might be required to show him the error of his ways.

The focus of the second question was on the second part. I wanted to know whether there were any arguments against me that I might have missed.

unvote, vote: Jack

, he seems to be acting deliberately unhelpful.

Was this a bandwagon vote, or a vote because you thought he was scum? Or both?

Both. Jack seems to be trying to aggravate the town a little; I don't like it.

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I don't think xofelf was going to claim before the deadline anyway. I have no problem with kmd's decision.

Drippereth, I find that putting forth arguments tends to help getting the lynches you want. You might want to consider that next time.

Vote Count 27: Lynch

xvart - 2 - FeFiFoFum
xofelf -

13

- SensFan, Papa Zito, xvart, SpyreX, Cobalt, Cyberbob, ooba, Steam-Powered Shovel, Elscouta, Elmocrates, J-Scope, Budja, Kmd4390
Cobalt - 1 - Starbuck
Steam-Powered Shovel - 8 - farside22, SocioPath, MehPlusRawr, Drippereth, Jack, Iecerint, Anon, curiouskarmadog
Elscouta - 1 - Nachomamma8

Not Voting (1): xofelf

With 25 players alive it'll take 13 to lynch and 13 to no-Lynch.

There are no players in the

Halls of Mandos

, so right now there are no

Revive

or

Destroy

counts.

For reference, this is the final Votecount for Day 1.

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Is it really that weird that I'm frustrated by the fact that a significant number of people are calling for a lynch without having any way of defending myself? I offered to give examples of town play for them to compare me to, but no one was interested. (And my one completed game on this account is only marginally relevant; games with 7 players are very different from games with 25.)

If I were scum and the town caught me based on gut reads, I could live with that; that's the town's job. Getting lynched as town I find far more frustrating.

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Shame Elmocrates wasn't an Elf.

Vote: Jack

Revive: farside22

Destroy: xofelf

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Well, that's a slamdunk case right there.

Time for J-Scope to claim.

Unvote, Vote: J-Scope

, I believe that's L-3.

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Okay, this is mucho confusing.

Ooba, are you sure you actually got a result? Specifically, is it possible you were just roleblocked?

Also, I googled Belog and couldn't find anything. Are you sure you spelled that right?

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Hmmm. Is it possible either of you got redirected, ooba and FFFF?

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Hmmm. Is it possible either of you got redirected, ooba and FFFF?

How can I answer if I was redirected?
There was nothing else in my night result if that's what you're driving at

Well, it mentioning Farside specificially (as you stated earlier) makes it pretty clear you weren't redirected.

FFFF is just making stuff up now. Why would Beleg have the Silmaril anyway?

(Also, if FFFF could track J-Scope to Farside, then ooba should've been able to detect it too. No group ability shenanigans.)

Unvote, vote: FFFF

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I suspect understanding his motivation will be easier after he's dead (and destroyed if he is an elf) since that'll tell us about his powers. It's clear he's scum anyway.

Papa Zito, no Silmaril-fishing. If he does hold the Silmaril, then he could still easily be scum.

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Oh DGB/Person I don't know but I assume is similar to DGB, you always have to disagree, don't you?

Do you really find it plausible that FFFF would, after ooba's claim proved him wrong, just lie more instead of coming clean despite still not having a good reason to suspect J-Scope (unless you count no one targetting him at night for some reason)? FFFF's second and third claim are clearly intended to be consistent with what ooba claimed.

Iecerint, in the story Beren manages to steal one of the silmarils from Melkor, so I would assume that we are dealing with just one silmaril.

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Vote: Jack

Destroy: FFFF

Going to ISO Nachomamma and J-Scope to see who I'd rather see revived.

I have no problem with Iecerint's argument. It's very weak, but he seems aware of that.

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That's the kind of punchline you should give away, Iece, since not voting for J-Scope is only meaningful if the non-voter is aware of J-Scope's soft claim. And with all that's happened, it's not that weird that people forgot about it.

Revive: J-Scope

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Farside, the first comment about budja refers to Drip thinking the FFFF-wagon was scum-laden. Have you read all of Day 2 yet?

SP's "metatell" carries no weight in my books, although SP seems genuine in his support of it.

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Zito is town because he PM'd Plum to complain about his reads. He wouldn't do it as scum and I doubt he'd lie about it expecting someone to see it as a towntell. So Zito is confirmed town.

God, you're naïve (alternatively: scum).

Additionally, one of (Jack / Budja / Icerint) is scum.

Exactly one?

Additonally, after thinking about the pieces of information we've been given and this setup as a whole: there is probably only one scumgroup that has two kills.

I tend to disagree. Thematically, I'd expect a Morgoth-Sauron-Werewolves side and a Feanor's sons side (Curufin and Celegorm play a significant role in the story.) It wouldn't be the same without either. And having elfscum would help balance the revive-mechanic.

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I tend to disagree. Thematically, I'd expect a Morgoth-Sauron-Werewolves side and a Feanor's sons side (Curufin and Celegorm play a significant role in the story.) It wouldn't be the same without either. And having elfscum would help balance the revive-mechanic.

Looks like IIOA...

Setup speculation =/= IIoA. And IIoA is a made-up tell anyway.

The worst thing on there is the self-metaing (which to be fair is actually pretty bad)

If the case against you is bandwagonning and you're known for bandwagonning, then why wouldn't you bring up your meta? That I don't want to be lynched over my playstyle doesn't say anything about my alignment,

Iecerint did bring up the daykillreactionthing later (so the case was more than just bandwagonning), but that was stupid then and is stupid now. (The daykill trick is so damn old. And if the very act of reacting is considered scummy, then why would I, if scum, need to warn my scumbuddies? They could just, *gasp*, not react to it if they were unsure.)

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Zito is town because he PM'd Plum to complain about his reads. He wouldn't do it as scum and I doubt he'd lie about it expecting someone to see it as a towntell. So Zito is confirmed town.

God, you're naïve (alternatively: scum).

Give me a scenario where that post comes from scum.

Okay. Imagine if you will a scum who's, get this, trying to look pro-town. So he figures he could back up his claim of having trouble with reads by referencing this concrete (but uncorfirmable) thing he did. I'll grant you that "he actually did it"-explanation is, in general, more parsimonious, but on the other hand I find it weird that he would complain to the mod about his reads.

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Sorry for my lack of posting. Should get a good solid post in tomorrow (you can hold me to this).

Iecerint's giving me good vibes lately.

I'm guessing the secret scum tell is just misguided nonsense.

Still happy with my Jackvote.

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This little quip really stood out on the re-read.

Why? Because it drips the stink of "I've been caught but I dont think I've done anything to get caught" AND there's no heat.

There hasn't ever been any heat.

It was a serious question. I wanted to know if I had missed anything. And I don't have a clue what you're on about with this heat business. (I have a healthy body temperature of 37 Celsius if that's what you're after.)

Why?

Why am I not scum? Why is it automatically assumed that I'm just misguided versus scum machinations?

Because you'll have to reveal it eventually. I think you think you've found something worth mentioning. This secret scum tell business would just be terrible play otherwise. It wasn't an automatic assumption; I gave it some thought and came to this conclusion.

It's certainly damn true that SPS isn't doing anything.

I am working on it; I'm just a slow starter.

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Yes there should be some heat. Or anything besides "is this just because I'm playing how I play?"

Are you saying I should have been more OMGUSy?

If town and you're getting a wagon on you you damn well should be able to analyze it. DOUBLY so if you legitimately think you've done no wrong.

It was a Day 1 wagon. And I didn't (and still don't)really have a feel for the game, so I can't say I haven't done anything wrong; I certainly haven't been a paragon of townness.

And the result should never be just a shrug of the shoulders.

Then I guess I don't your preconceptions of how people play the game. Could not care less.

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So, you say you haven't been "the paragon of towniness" but questioned getting wagoned for your standard play?

I was getting wagonned because I was bandwagonning, which is my standard play. The paragon comment was meant to explain that I wasn't thinking "Why are people wagonning me? I haven't done anything wrong." since I was well aware that I hadn't contributed enough content. Did you bother to read your own quote here and the sentences preceding this one in my answer? The only way the accusation you're making here makes any sort of sense is if you just grabbed that one sentence out of context.

(and questioning the motives and votes on yourself isn't OMGUS and if someone said such welp you've done your job because thats a scumbolina style answer)

I was still trying to figure out what the hell the heat business about; that's why I asked the question. It's not uncommon for people to feel suspicious of me, I didn't see anything particularly scummy in the Day 1 wagon.

And if you've couldn't care less about playing the game then I can't care less about watching you dangle.

Do you only read every second sentence of my posts? I couldn't care less about your preconceptions of how someone should play.

So, we're in agreement!

If you ignore enough sentences of mine, then yes, apparently we do.

Xvart:

SPS: Scum, Town.

I want one simple word.

You're being ridiculous. The less words you use, the less information you can convey.

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I've stated my reasons, and they are still valid.

I just ISOed you and all I can find is this exchange:

Shovel: Early-game bandwagonning is pro-town, certainly in big games.
Path: Calling your own actions pro-town is never pro-town.
Shovel: If you're playing in a way you would not describe as pro-town, you're doing something wrong.
Path: That is a bit of a false dilemma. Every action a person takes could be described as pro-town, if the end result is helping them catching scum. Vote: Shovel
Shovel: SocioPath, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
Path: The Ends Justify The Means.

Then I seem to have forgotten about it, which is a shame, since it just boils down to a specious reading of one of my statements. You suggest that I consider actions which don't immediately benefit the town as not pro-town even though nothing in my post suggests that. My statement is not in any way inconsistent with "the end justifies the means". In fact, the opposite is true since bandwagonning is all about the end justifying the means.

If you have other reasons for suspecting me, then you haven't mentioned them.

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Actually, at least from me early on it wasn't because you were "bandwagoning". It was because you were actively calling for the Sens wagon for ??? and calling the els wagon "dumb".

The elswagon was dumb and yes, the Senswagon wasn't really based on nothing.

Succintness is pro-town.

To some extent, sure. Forcing him to use one word when it was already clear from his post that his position wouldn't fit neatly into either box is just being ridiculous though.

Especially in regards to someone who really seems to be playing doublespeak in regards to this wagon.

I thought his stance was pretty clear.

Claim:

I am Mandos of the race of Valar. I'm a Governor whose power is limited to the Revive/Destroy votes.

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In terms of useful pro-town abilities, yes.

In terms of having an ability that's too powerful for scum (hello no-reveal game!), no.

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No, my role doesn't say vanilla. Why would it? I have a power.

Farside, I could veto the Destroy-thing each Day, thereby substantially reducing the number of reveals.

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If I want to prevent a Revive or Destroy from taking place, I have to send a PM to Miriel prior to the Day ending.

how is that a protown ability?

You could ask the same question about a regular governor. It's just an ability mods hand out.

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I can't prevent both, but I can do it each day.

And I assume that if Beren returning to life is in the game, it'll be part of Beren's role, not mine. (Possibly Beren's Silmaril ability.)

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It's only too powerful for scum. Me using the ability will in pretty much all cases be detrimental to the town.

I assume the reason my power is unlimited is that it makes more sense thematically. The Halls of Mandos are mine, why would I only be able to prevent someone from leaving once?

Vote Count 3 - 17: Lynch

Steam-Powered Shovel -

8

- Jack, SpyreX, MehPlusRawr, Cobalt, Papa Zito, SocioPath, farside22, Anon
xvart - 2 - Iecerint, Kmd4390
Iecerint - 2 - Cyberbob, Starbuck
Jack - 1 - Steam-Powered Shovel
Kmd4390 - 1 - curiouskarmadog
Budja - 1 - xvart
curiousjarmadog - 1 - Budja

Not Voting (2): SensFan, ooba

With 18 players alive it'll take 10 to lynch and 9 to no-Lynch.

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Basically there's almost no way that the mod didn't give the scum some power over the revive/destroy votes in this setup. Governor is guaranteed to be a scum role.

Name me a scum character who would hold such a power. Sauron? Melkor? Carcharoth? Curufin?

ACTUALLY, considering how realistically the revive mechanic could make it really hard for scum to win I'm not swayed by the too powerful for scum argument one bit.

So essentially you think the Mod put in a mechanism and then gave scum a power to mostly nullify the mechanism? On top of that, the Mod also gave that power to one person to make the game extra swingy.

We had 4 kills last Night, SpyreX, reviving is not that spectacular in the face of that many kills. And there's a delayed reveal to compensate.

Besides, if I were scum, I'd have just used my powers for evil. Blocking 2 revives would be more useful than a credible fake claim. (Or just prevent the reveals to cause apathy.)

I guess they could be Sons of Feanor together (SPS mentioned them offhand earlier almost out of nowhere IIRC, which could possibly indicate inside knowledge)

I've read the Silmarillion and the Feanor-storyline is a big part of it. Being familiar with the flavour is not a scum tell.

Its value increases dramatically as the game progresses and holding it makes it a factor that can't be accounted for.

I already got suspicion on me Day 1, so why would I risk waiting as scum?

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Why would there be a governor to stop players from reviving or destroying someone. The majority of the votes are town.

You could ask the same question about regular Governors. It makes a lot of thematic sense for Mandos to have this type of power though.

SPS: If you stopped someone from being destroyed would they sit in the Halls? Same question about stopping someone from being revived. Or are they dead for good if you stop it?

I merely prevent the Revive/Destroy action from taking place. They stay in the Halls.

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I'm fine with the Kinslayer QT being released.

Re: balance. I think the Revive-thing wouldn't have been nearly as harsh on scum if the Kinslayermafia had gotten more than 1 kill in. (That Night 2 failure really was a shame. Cobalt would've made the kill if we had sent in proper choices.) The set-up probably was flawed but I think bad luck played a big part in how screwed up it turned out.

"I tend to disagree. Thematically, I'd expect a Morgoth-Sauron-Werewolves side and a Feanor's sons side (Curufin and Celegorm play a significant role in the story.) It wouldn't be the same without either. And having elfscum would help balance the revive-mechanic." (Steam-Powered Shovel)
----------------
Now was this the best time to do this? It will certainly get speculation started, but probably the exact sort of speculation that SPS doesn't want - speculation as to how he came up with this. The only way to get out of it is to prove he knows the source material cold (or nearly so) or use the Finrod sadfeclaim. This is not something which is ordinarily beneficial to say when no one has said anything about this or indeed is even considering who among the Elves may be scum at all, and less so when under mderate suspicion.

The wiki article you linked has a nice short synopsis. Combined with my general knowledge of the themes of the Silmarillion I definitely would've made this connection regardless of my alignment. In hindsight, it was still probably a mistake; it might be a good Townshovel impression, but people don't know me well enough to determine that.

SpyreX, can you tell me your "secret scum tell" now?