Lay of Leithian Mafia: Game Over!

[curiouskarmadog]

I'm not voting for kmd based on one freeking comment and a sparting of information that can before freeking confirmed by someone tonight. I don't like CKD's push at all.

farside, what was your vote on KMD at the beginning of the day based on then?

Vote Count 3 - 15: Lynch

Steam-Powered Shovel -

4

- Jack, SpyreX, MehPlusRawr, Cobalt,
xvart - 3 - Iecerint, Kmd4390, Anon
Iecerint -

4

- SocioPath, Cyberbob, Starbuck, Papa Zito
Jack - 1 - Steam-Powered Shovel
Kmd4390 - 1 - curiouskarmadog
Budja - 1 - xvart
curiousjarmadog - 2 - Budja, farside22

Not Voting (2): SensFan, ooba

With 18 players alive it'll take 10 to lynch and 9 to no-Lynch.

[xvart]

No no. Heat from him. Not ON him.

Heat

from

SPS? Is there a standard level of heat that is associated with town that is not being displayed that encourages your suspicion? I would hate to suggest and ask about standard level of heat associated with town-

SPS

because I think your anti-meta coalition might implode at the hint of suggestion.

xvart.

[Papa Zito]

No no. Heat from him. Not ON him.

Oh.

Well hell, that's half the game. Which is why we're gonna lose, btw.

I'm not joining any more limited-reveal setups. I can't get anything done in this vacuum.

[SpyreX]

That is a lot of the game BUT even when pressure is applied in new and exciting ways nothing. Not a blip.

It reeks of getting busted for what doesn't appear to the busted as a real slipup.

I have absolutely NO idea what xvart is going on about.

[Papa Zito]

Okay, you know what?

It's certainly damn true that SPS isn't doing anything.

And the stagnation just makes me itch.

unvote: Kmd
vote: SPS

And if you're wrong I'll just Papa Zito you off another cliff.

Let's go alliance.

[SocioPath]

Eh, hate to dissolve a wagon before it has truly started but this one is also excellent...

Unvote
Vote: SPS

I've stated my reasons, and they are still valid.

[xvart]

I have absolutely NO idea what xvart is going on about.

SpryreX - let me see if I can be more clear. I'm assuming by "heat" you mean a level of tenacity in defending oneself (at least that is the context I am reading in the original statement). Is that correct? Is there an expected level of return heat typically associated with a town-aligned person when being bandwagoned? Or is it an expected level of heat from a town aligned SPS that is the cause of your furthered suspicion?

xvart.

[Steam-Powered Shovel]

This little quip really stood out on the re-read.

Why? Because it drips the stink of "I've been caught but I dont think I've done anything to get caught" AND there's no heat.

There hasn't ever been any heat.

It was a serious question. I wanted to know if I had missed anything. And I don't have a clue what you're on about with this heat business. (I have a healthy body temperature of 37 Celsius if that's what you're after.)

Why?

Why am I not scum? Why is it automatically assumed that I'm just misguided versus scum machinations?

Because you'll have to reveal it eventually. I think you think you've found something worth mentioning. This secret scum tell business would just be terrible play otherwise. It wasn't an automatic assumption; I gave it some thought and came to this conclusion.

It's certainly damn true that SPS isn't doing anything.

I am working on it; I'm just a slow starter.

[SpyreX]

SpryreX - let me see if I can be more clear. I'm assuming by "heat" you mean a level of tenacity in defending oneself (at least that is the context I am reading in the original statement). Is that correct? Is there an expected level of return heat typically associated with a town-aligned person when being bandwagoned? Or is it an expected level of heat from a town aligned SPS that is the cause of your furthered suspicion?

Yes there should be some heat. Or anything besides "is this just because I'm playing how I play?"

If town and you're getting a wagon on you you damn well should be able to analyze it. DOUBLY so if you legitimately think you've done no wrong.

And the result should never be just a shrug of the shoulders.

[farside22]

I'm not voting for kmd based on one freeking comment and a sparting of information that can before freeking confirmed by someone tonight. I don't like CKD's push at all.

farside, what was your vote on KMD at the beginning of the day based on then?

vote: Kmd

So what's up with the actively lurking? What's with the vote on xvart? You have been really quiet and so far I'm not liking your play.

[Steam-Powered Shovel]

Yes there should be some heat. Or anything besides "is this just because I'm playing how I play?"

Are you saying I should have been more OMGUSy?

If town and you're getting a wagon on you you damn well should be able to analyze it. DOUBLY so if you legitimately think you've done no wrong.

It was a Day 1 wagon. And I didn't (and still don't)really have a feel for the game, so I can't say I haven't done anything wrong; I certainly haven't been a paragon of townness.

And the result should never be just a shrug of the shoulders.

Then I guess I don't your preconceptions of how people play the game. Could not care less.

[farside22]

Question: Does anyone remember who called out PZ for pushing the Senfan wagon? I have a question for that person.

[SpyreX]

Hold up:

So, you say you haven't been "the paragon of towniness" but questioned getting wagoned for your standard play?

(and questioning the motives and votes on yourself isn't OMGUS and if someone said such welp you've done your job because thats a scumbolina style answer)

And if you've couldn't care less about playing the game then I can't care less about watching you dangle.

So, we're in agreement!

[Papa Zito]

I don't remember farside. I probably ignored it.

So, we're in agreement!

Oh good. I like it when people can work together.

[Budja]

SPS is a fair lynch but... not uniquely. I can name many players (e.g. Sens, Anon, KMD) who also suck on the content front.

His play is reminding me more of his scum play then town play at this moment and yes damn it Spyreyx I will say it's meta.

It's a lot more passive than his usual play IIRC, that's part of what makes me uneasy.

(/filler post. Analytical skills are dead ATM.)

[xvart]

Yes there should be some heat. Or anything besides "is this just because I'm playing how I play?"

If town and you're getting a wagon on you you damn well should be able to analyze it. DOUBLY so if you legitimately think you've done no wrong.

And the result should never be just a shrug of the shoulders.

I I've been reading back for a while and let me see if I have the case on SPS right (outside of the... wait for it...

Secret Scumtell

...):

First, pushing pointless RVS wagons:

Iecerint

- in ISO43 you say SPS posts are scummy, but not for the reasons MPR stated. What were the differences? Were the differences so obvious you did not need to state them?

Then, Iecerint, you say in ISO54 that

if

Jack wagon scum exist that your guess is CKB

or

SPS. Were the scummy reasons before just scummy behavior and not the behavior of scum? The conditional in your ISO54 concerns me greatly.

Second, SPS's reaction to the fake daykill.

The other pieces include "gut" (Jack, answering a direct question in 612) and secret scumtell.

Is there anything else that I'm missing? Who have the biggest proponents of the SPS wagon been so I can go back and read them in isolation? Iecerint, SpyreX, and Jack?

My other concern about this wagon is that the case may have some level of credibility, but not to the degree it is given. Perhaps that is because I am not privvy to Jack's gut and SpyreX's secret scumtell, but everything else is marginal at best. I don't think it is any stretch of imagination to think that I am alone in this thought, and that makes SpyreX's reaction to not having a more tenacious reaction troubling.

xvart.

[Iecerint]

I didn't go into why I thought they were scummy because I thought CB/Jack/PZ should be our focus by then. At the time, the SPS stuff was ancient history from before Jack's I SEE A COP CRUMB and the fallout from that.

I can't remember all the specific differences I had in mind back then, but, namely, I remember SPS's "I feel like wagoning, but all the wagons are dumb " comment really rubbing me the wrong way, but MPR claimed it was a scummy post because he abandoned the RVSwagon on SF, which MPR had prior criticized SPS for supporting. If SPS's scummy for supporting it and scummy for abandoning it, what the hell's a guy to do? Rather, it looked scummy to me because it looked like SPS was without a motivation to scumhunt. It also bothered me that MPR mischaracterized PZ's SF wagon as an RVS wagon, whereas it was actually a policy lynch (scummier to stick with something like that IMO). I also didn't like that SPS singled-out the Elswagon as a bad one.

I don't understand your next question. IIRC, I thought the scummiest/most opportunistic Jack voters were CKD and SPS. (I think I thought CKD was particularly bad because he joined Jackwagon while supporting sketchyCB once people were saying they found CB town. SPS was due to relatively poor reasoning for the switch + lackluster play elsewhere.) Other players expressed their reasons for voting more clearly IIRC. On the other hand, I personally thought Jack's rhetoric after SX asked him what was up -- "would scum be this anti-town?" -- was worth a vote, so I didn't know for sure that there were scum on the wagon. Does that answer your question?

I wanted to lynch CB D1. SPS just beat xofelf. Oddly, I think I came the closest to providing a case on SPS in spite of preferring other lynches.

I guess MPR's SPS post indicates him, and SP just claimed he listed his reasons for SPS somewhere, though I have no recollection of anything like that myself. O.o

[Míriel Therindë]

Vote Count 3 - 16: Lynch

Steam-Powered Shovel -

6

- Jack, SpyreX, MehPlusRawr, Cobalt, Papa Zito, SocioPath
xvart - 3 - Iecerint, Kmd4390, Anon
Iecerint - 2 - Cyberbob, Starbuck
Jack - 1 - Steam-Powered Shovel
Kmd4390 - 1 - curiouskarmadog
Budja - 1 - xvart
curiousjarmadog - 2 - Budja, farside22

Not Voting (2): SensFan, ooba

With 18 players alive it'll take 10 to lynch and 9 to no-Lynch.

[xvart]

SPS is a fair lynch but... not uniquely. I can name many players (e.g. Sens, Anon, KMD) who also suck on the content front.

Was his lynch more unique when you were voting for him on D1?

xvart.

[SpyreX]

Xvart:

SPS: Scum, Town.

I want one simple word.

[farside22]

Alright I'm offically calling Iecerint scum at this point and probably with SPS.
I looked at my notes and he was the one to call out PZ on pushing the sens lynch. But if you look at SPS in isolation he really got on the pushing traing.

Unvote; Vote: PapaZito

Nullifying my favorite events in the game so far, and being responsible for the policy lynch on SF that rubbed me the wrong way earlier (never quite noticed that; it'd made me get negative feelings about SPS). Also, 0% impressed with his reported reads. Alsoalso, low activity, and an unusual fixation on MPR.

Will bother CB more later.

He votes for PZ but defends SPS for pushing the wagon and even ignores SPS completely who keeps floating by. I call this the big fat scum tell of all times where you ignore one player but point out another doing the same.

unvote:
vote: Iecerint

[Iecerint]

Uh, how am I ignoring SPS? I'm pointing out that PZ is responsible for the same wagon that had already made me look twice at SPS. Then I list problems with PZ's recent post.

[farside22]

Uh, how am I ignoring SPS? I'm pointing out that PZ is responsible for the same wagon that had already made me look twice at SPS. Then I list problems with PZ's recent post.

Reading in full on my end would be most awesome.

unvote:
vote: SPS

[Steam-Powered Shovel]

So, you say you haven't been "the paragon of towniness" but questioned getting wagoned for your standard play?

I was getting wagonned because I was bandwagonning, which is my standard play. The paragon comment was meant to explain that I wasn't thinking "Why are people wagonning me? I haven't done anything wrong." since I was well aware that I hadn't contributed enough content. Did you bother to read your own quote here and the sentences preceding this one in my answer? The only way the accusation you're making here makes any sort of sense is if you just grabbed that one sentence out of context.

(and questioning the motives and votes on yourself isn't OMGUS and if someone said such welp you've done your job because thats a scumbolina style answer)

I was still trying to figure out what the hell the heat business about; that's why I asked the question. It's not uncommon for people to feel suspicious of me, I didn't see anything particularly scummy in the Day 1 wagon.

And if you've couldn't care less about playing the game then I can't care less about watching you dangle.

Do you only read every second sentence of my posts? I couldn't care less about your preconceptions of how someone should play.

So, we're in agreement!

If you ignore enough sentences of mine, then yes, apparently we do.

Xvart:

SPS: Scum, Town.

I want one simple word.

You're being ridiculous. The less words you use, the less information you can convey.

[Steam-Powered Shovel]

I've stated my reasons, and they are still valid.

I just ISOed you and all I can find is this exchange:

Shovel: Early-game bandwagonning is pro-town, certainly in big games.
Path: Calling your own actions pro-town is never pro-town.
Shovel: If you're playing in a way you would not describe as pro-town, you're doing something wrong.
Path: That is a bit of a false dilemma. Every action a person takes could be described as pro-town, if the end result is helping them catching scum. Vote: Shovel
Shovel: SocioPath, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
Path: The Ends Justify The Means.

Then I seem to have forgotten about it, which is a shame, since it just boils down to a specious reading of one of my statements. You suggest that I consider actions which don't immediately benefit the town as not pro-town even though nothing in my post suggests that. My statement is not in any way inconsistent with "the end justifies the means". In fact, the opposite is true since bandwagonning is all about the end justifying the means.

If you have other reasons for suspecting me, then you haven't mentioned them.