Teleportation Mafia Universe ONE (MAFIA A WINS!)

[Ojanen]

Yup.

[Ojanen]

I have been distracted with stuff and haven't really gotten my head around to this game yet. But prisoner's dilemma seems about right. We dump scummy players there and get scummy players back (/pull pro-town), both towns would have the incentive to do this since both towns seem to have incentive for betrayal in case of agreed ceasefire.
I liked Kai's plan at first read but need to think through a little on benefits of claiming for the teleporters themselves and vanillas fakeclaiming. Little drunk currently, don't trust my head right now.

@mod:

can a teleporter target themselves?

[Ojanen]

I was hit hard by real life in the couple of last days, I'm sorry for not having got here properly yet. I'll catch up and get rolling in 10 hours or so.

[Ojanen]

Yes sir!!!

[Ojanen]

You're good at throwing me off balance, sir.

Raskol is scummy.
He's far too

nice

. And so reasonable in his lack of suspicions.
His iso consists of stressing and repeating how the towns need to work together somehow, anyhow ("If your plan ends up being the best for both universes then I'd be happy to use it. My concern has been to make sure people know what our goal is; I'm less concerned with the implementation, so long as it gets done what need to be. ")
mykonian is naive, but not scummy. The questions he asked from Gayle are

not

meant to suggest Gayle is scum, indeed Gayle's lazy anti-town stance is more of a towntell. Noone is scummy or worth to pursue. Happyhappy.

vote: Raskol

I just hate it because I never like talking about my scum actions. Never. It's something I hold dear to my heart and don't want to share with the MS world (who do read games and look back on things to the nth degree) signs that I'm scum for later games.

So why did you answer the question anyway?

@mykonian: A conservative and stressed Ojanen is the scum one, or that's what they tell me. Come and get me, DGB.

@mod: Please prod aces5993 and Plum.

Prodded ace, Plum has posted as of now.

Lurkerscumz.

[Ojanen]

Well DGB triggers some interesting turns of phrases from people.
@evilsnail: how do you go about attempting to read DGB?
I've had a pro-town read on pops although 266 is a little bizarre. He doesn't know what to think on DGB play, calls it erratic, denies defending DGB in general, goes on to express concern over "insanity plea scumhunting" and promptly votes her.

Still like my Raskol vote. Not only being totally tiptoeish and then pulling out a substantially disagreeable suspicion about right away after my criticism, he feels largely different to the Raskol I met in a previous game.
Admittedly one-game metas are sucky but it's the solidest bad feel I've got at the moment.

@Fishy: do you think, from a point of an individual scumplayer, that getting apart from buddies to the other universe would seem disadvantageous early? (I'm asking you cause I don't trust my own judgment on the strategy discussion.)
@Albert: you throw me off balance cause, I dunno, you're consistently nice to me? I can't use my self-demeaning wonderful shield from the world.

[Ojanen]

Having time problems argh.
I skimmed the last pages, fast comments:

Well, DGB as I remember her is a gut player, especially on day 1, which I find hard to read. But there are a few things I do look for. Gut is erratic, so you look for rapid changes of heart. Going after one player really hard for some time and then suddenly backing off on the basis of one townie-looking comment. That sort of thing. Paradoxically, relying heavily on logic can also be a scum tell (because it indicates an absence of gut feelings). Finally, if my gut reads are the same, that's usually a sense of pro-townness.

Well I did ask him how he would go about attempting to read DGB at all then because of earlier waffling but this was startlingly specific making surely the attempted tells less valid.
Later posts seem to portray evilsnail as universally preferring cards in the open to the extreme in most things though and I don't have a scumread on him currently.

Please - don't let this intrusion from the mod interrupt this fascinating conversation about me. I'm still trying to decide whether evilsnail is buddying up... I'm such a fool for flattery that way.

But this as a reaction from the Goofball at the time was weeeeird in a bad way, why wasn't she freaking out? I guess it's fun to hear about self (though can't see at all what she was referring to with the buddying). But if talking about own scummeta is really scummy, then talking about the specific scumtells regards to others attempted to use in future would seem strike as doubly non-genuine in that thought system. Yet she

likes

when evilsnail tells her what to do to make him think she's more town, discrediting his own scumhunting?
On gut, and without possessing meta, DGB is sort of scummy generally to me.

BTW elvis, while you're answering that, could you go ahead and let me know how usual it is for you to claim town before you even have any votes on you?

Yeah I thought this was bloody weak.
elvis is generally a strong townread of mine currently.
how huge a percentage does she usually spawn out of the discussion of a thread as town? discounting the start, she has seemed one of the most active recently here to me, even before farside accused her of non-verbosity.

(just fyi, this is what it looks like when I want to push a wagon on someone)

This strengthened my view of the fishy vote as a first reaction to the suspicion of him being too vague and non-suspecting.

Albert is scummy.

I curse blizzards and Johannes Brahms leading to semi-V/LA.
Really low on time until Monday, will try to read more carefully by tomorrow but can't promise.

[Ojanen]

I'm trying to catch up in the next 12 hours here. Unfortunately still super busy. Neeeed to master something or die.

[Ojanen]

I am catching up now. Sorry for the absence. I got caught in a web of cancelled flights due to bad weather twice since the weekend and have had great trouble with work crammed to the timeslots when I haven't been stuck in transit.

[Ojanen]

So I'm still 10 pages behind going through the mykonian slip business currently.
I did not think the Slip is a big deal when it's an exchanged word in a sentence that makes sense. These kinds of slips and typos happen to people who don't check their posts. I'm much more inclined to check mine if I'm scum. Typoing and slips seem to me a general personality thing more than something alignment specific.
Anyway, had a few comments disliking DGB and even Fishy a little for finding it significant. But what was up with CSL? Thought first I can never make sense of him anyway, but

Wow, I'm not done with the 12th page yet, and I go to this page, and see that. That's one of the biggest slips I have seen in my life!

Vote: mykonian

This was on page 16.
He then gets criticized for following.
He then explains:

@ Gayle: I did not follow Plum. I found it on my own. However, Plum (and whoever else voted myko) already posted the "slip" and wuoting the post might not have done any good.

The only thing is, the alleged slip post was on page 4.

"Wow, I'm not done with the 12th page yet, and I go to this page, and see that."

with this page reffering to 16 then makes zero sense.
...Liar?

Massive HoS: CSL

/reads on

[Ojanen]

It wasn't apparant then, I guess. I looked back just now.

I can't understand a word of what you mean with this.
Again please.

[Ojanen]

Serious Limited Action going on here. Expect a case from me by Friday evening.

No answer? Fine then.

vote: CSL

You need to explain to me how you did not make it up about catching the slip independently.

Ugh. I'm on page 21 and I have 5 hours of sleep time left with massive carryover sleep debt. I'm gonna have to continue tomorrow.
One comment: So far Rhinox is scummyyyyy.
His 459: Whole wallpost concentrating on commenting the most aligment independent theory drudgery, even quoting chunks of the "is it anti-town to post readlists" discussion that was never gonna end up anywhere. His next post (464) isn't much better. Next one (492) neither. Ugh, is Rhinox always super duper fluffy?
@myko

Gayle, look at who said it: DGB has thought me scum for quite some time. It isn't that weird for her to call her new bystander (who found what a lot of people read over) town. Can't say I disagree, though plum doesn't post enough yet.

Can you dig from your memory this: Did you think at this point DGB was scum?

[Ojanen]

/no counterclaim post
I have a free evening tonight and can finally read up on everything.

[Ojanen]

I was in the middle of a catchup when ABR got hammered. Saved some thoughts in my notes, might as well post them. Up-to-date stuff in a bit when I'm done with the latest couple of pages.

The meta evidence on DGB is pretty damning, unless DGB does this as town too. I've never played with DGB before and I'm too lazy to do the research myself, so anyone ready to level with me and come do DGB's defense? I've seen these go both ways though.

Horrors from Rhinox!
The meta evidence is damning unless she does this as town too? ugh!
The post (654) feels a little like it could be egging on the biggest wagon at that point (DGB), who Rhinox hasn't almost mentioned before except in positive light for agreeing early with her stance on myko's question.

Can you dig from your memory this: Did you think at this point DGB was scum?

Scum, definately. Town wouldn't reason that way, so saying she acted that way also shows how I think about her. I didn't disagree on her town read of plum, but it wasn't because her opinions suited me at that moment, like they did for DGB.

Ok. It just felt a little weird how you quasi-defended the arguments of someone you thought was definitively scum, those arguments being based on you being scum, wouldn't you assume possible maliciousness? (referring to following:)

Gayle, look at who said it: DGB has thought me scum for quite some time. It isn't that weird for her to call her new bystander (who found what a lot of people read over) town. Can't say I disagree, though plum doesn't post enough yet.

Plum asked the question, gayle... Investigation is towny. CSL just hopped on, DGB used it to finally follow her suspicion with a vote. Pop's could be right, because this is pretty much target practice for scum.

The last point on CSL is false. CSL read the current page, plum was one of the last posts, and voted on that. His unvote was much worse, after DGB unvoted.

This missed the point on why I voted CSL btw. It was because when suspicion was dealt for following, he claimed that no, he wasn't following plum's post, instead he found the slip himself independently, which seemed just plain untrue.
@CSL please answer about this. Ignoring my questions got you the vote yesterday.

[Ojanen]

I think Fishy is right about Elli.

[Ojanen]

I have read the thread but feel a bit at loss for a clear target.

CSL is scummy. I know he apparently always is, but gah... Seeming lie about finding a reason to vote on his own and the awful (normal for him? only have meta as scum in active memory) bandwagoning.

Rhinox is scummy, although I've liked a couple of his latest points a little better.

Fishy being several levels more insightful and focused in teleportation thinking than scumhunting makes me worry about him despite originally thinking town.

Out of the superactive bunch, I like the others but can't make heads or tail out of myko and pops, especially myko I can't decide if he's the type who snows in people with camouflaging questionable stuff in over the top amount of words.

I'll look at the bandwagons asap to gain some clarity. I was lagging behind far too much D1, will correct that now.

The killing of DGB is strange. Scum just must have known she wasn't pulled.

[Ojanen]

vote: Rhinox

Rhinox iso 10 seems like it could be a deliberate approach to the biggest wagon at that point (DGB).
Prior to it Rhinox has only mentioned DGB a little, in positive light for the early stance of myko's self meta question being scummy.

The meta evidence on DGB is pretty damning, unless DGB does this as town too. I've never played with DGB before and I'm too lazy to do the research myself, so anyone ready to level with me and come do DGB's defense? I've seen these go both ways though.

Ugh. This says nothing except that it's damning unless it isn't.

+echoes Fishy about DGB being scummy for not paying enough attention on who actually answered mykos question (though he originally liked DGB's stance on the scumminess of the question itself).
Next mention of DGB is straight up this:

DGB 709: I agree with you here. But I also find you very scummy. If I don't vote for CSL today, I'll be voting for you.

and

Also, I'm going to go ahead and ask what makes you think he is town?

If he were scum he would have bothered to BS a list of 5 names. If only not to incur the wrath of his buddies, ie, peer pressure. But he didn't bother. He's a free agent, he's town.

Using this logic, you are very scummy for the lists you've been throwing around all game.

Bad context reading btw, DGB asked specifically for 5 names and that's where the CSL townread referred to.

I figured out something thats been bothering me about DGB.
[...]

Very small thing, but the wording slightly bothers me due to its activeness. (I associate to a need to find a reason.)
And votes DGB to L-1.
I think elvis brings a good point in this post about the L-1 reasoning - it's basically again the same kind of porridge as the DGB meta being damning unless she does it as town too.

After mason claim and before N1, comes online twice with several posts and an unvote, but they are mostly teleporting theory - no new vote, not going back to earlier CSL vote even though he eyerolls at CSL's bandwagoning, no real comment other than that about ABR lynch that is happening although he earlier expressed not being suspicious of ABR.

Hi ellibereth nice to see you again. Why should we not lynch you on the spot, considering your former uni thought it better to be rid of you than gain a confirmed townie in DGB, aparently? Why did you vote CSL before reading the thread?

Plus there is definite U1 scum motivation for this.

[Ojanen]

Rhinox is town.

Why?

[Ojanen]

And OJ's case is crap. iso 10 is a call for more info on DGB's meta. Yes, every single post that isn't "I investigated her last night and the mod told me she was scum" is ultimately "she is scum unless she isn't". Rhinox was just pointing out what info was necessary for a meta read to be conclusive.

He simultaneously said the meta seemed damning. And this call for info as you call it seemed to be half the reason DGB was the second scummiest person in thread (the other being Fishy's point that she hadn't payed enough attention to who had answered myko's question despite finding that a scummy action).

Rhinox's logic is totally correct about DGB later on. DGB asserts that CSL is townie because he doesn't list 5 players he thinks seems townie. That suggests that DGB thinks listing townreads is scummy.
Since DGBs lists have included several townreads all game, she should have seemed scummy by her own logic.

No it's not. DGB asserts that CSL is townie because he didn't list 5 townies

as a response

for DGB asking for 5 townies.

Then the end of Oj's post is more info than analysis.

I didn't think I needed to spell out more. Having taking the position DGB=scummy ABR=not suspicious earlier and then being around to unvote and talk teleportation after the claim but not really commenting about ABR lynch going on is something I find to have a scum motivation of staying out of a convenient lynch's way without getting tarnished.

[Ojanen]

Hoopla, Plum was teleported to the other universe.
(will have time for real post later today.)

[Ojanen]

I hate what has become of my activity. I have been somewhat sick, that plus traveling cut off my good intentions to pick it up. Will get better from (rl) tomorrow on when I'm home again; this post is insomnia induced.
My Rhinox vote seems to be doing nothing.
I isoed pops since the lynch seems to be heavily leaning to either CSL or him. CSL is scummy as always. Pops I alrready mentioned being an utterly confusing read. I wanna ask a couple of questions before deciding my preference.
@pops:
In which games did you play with CSL before this game and as which alignment?

mykonian, I don't know why I bother explaining this to scum, I guess it's more for the rest of the players. farside may not make any sense at all and have her facts all topsy-turvy. In evaluating her alignment you have to learn to look beyond the actual words and arguments she's making.

She's town, so drop it. My farside-meta is solid.

If there is one thing I'm good for, it's to read zwet's alignment.

I can tell you here that he's town in this game.

This has been echoing all game. Which is part of why I'd like to see DGB hang from a tree.

How is this different from you laconically proclaiming Rhinox to be town?
Can you say a couple of parts frim iso that you liked from Rhinox?

Everyone in this thread is being hilariously hypocritical. If it was such a horrible mistake that town couldn't make, then why did everyone in the thread except plum read over it and not notice?
Because, we'd do it too, regardless of alignment.
It's srsly nbd, and in context I don't think I count it for much.
For the scums in the thread, though, it makes a great <insert reason> for <insert vote> on <insert townie>.

myko: I don't lynch people for sucking at strategy, which seems to be a chunk of the case against them. I don't think [competent] scum get to their wincon by advocating bad strategies, because they are unlikely to get adopted. He scumhunts a lot, though, so townier than scum. He does lose points for the slip, which adds some doubtshadows. But not many.

It seems you put more stock on the myko slip over time, why?

The reason I'm particularly attentive to whether ABR's targets flip scum is because I'm assuming I'm a good scumhunter (...lol...) and therefore I think he's townie for targetting scum atm.
But since DGB has functionally "flipped", he's already got one red mark since I made that post. And calling for mason not to cc was obviously dumb.
So this deadline lynch doesn't sting at all, he's almost on a level with CSL. (who has been way scummier than policy lynch line for quite some time, Gayle)

.
You said about myko you wouldn't vote for sucking at strategy, nd you shortcut the time to see Albert as scummy for incorrect reads by a couple of days. How much of your reasons were in hindsight deadline exaggerated and how much stuff you found sincerely scummy enough for lynch?

[Ojanen]

(the last question there refers to pops saying earlier this:)

ABR: ABR is willing to hit a lot of the same targets as me, which is convenient for now. But if none of these targets flip scum, his level of contribution is a problem like people have said. He does contribute a liiittle just not a lot. Giving him time might tell me more. If he kept up this level of contribution 2 more days and none of his targets flipped scum, I'd be helping his attackers lynch him

.

[Ojanen]

Day 2 Vote Count

CSL ( 3 ) Rhinox Hoopla popsofctown
elvis_knits ( 0 )
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 1 ) evilsnail
Hoopla ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
mykonian ( 0 )
ojanen ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 6 ) gayle elvis_knits fishythefish Ellibereth farside22 CSL
Raskol ( 1 ) mykonian
Rhinox ( 1 ) ojanen
Maelyn ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 2 ) Raskol Maelyn
Total Votes ( 14 )


With 14 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: Feb 22nd 19:00 EST

/threadheal

[Ojanen]

CSL was town in mafia 105. He played pretty anti town, refused to defend himself, and requested replacement right before he was lynched.

Why have you been strongly of the opinion that

I personally have played with CSL and found him to be unreadable.

if you have only played with him as one alignment (and you were scum so you wouldn't have been trying to read him)?

Have you played with/seen DGB as town and was she not calling people magically town as that alignment?

The Rhinox examples you gave, neither of them are original ideas, first one expands on a question I had asked from farside, the second one in fact straight up says that Fishy brings up a good point. You say he's obvtown because of original scumhunting. I don't get it.

[ABR]
85% deadline exaggerated. I didn't believe that there would be a superior lynch coming soon. CSL would have been better, but this town is vehemently opposed to the concept of policy lynching.

Why did you feel the need to exaggerate the rhetorics themselves?

[Ojanen]

Rhinox, do you have something to comment on my case on you?

I don't see any way to link it to wincons so it was mostly a meta thing.

I didn't check to see if DGBtown does that. Seems like that should be DGB's job. She didn't even use that line of defense.

You have a thing for one-sided metas that I'm not fond of, not checking whether she does something wincon-independent as both alignments but finding her really scummy for it. Have you btw played with DGB scum before or did the meta information come to you from ABR's case this thread?

He expounds on what fishy says. He adds a lot more. You're saying there's nothing new about the mechanical carriage because it has ancient wheels on it, not fair at all.

...
No, help me out here, I'm getting more and more lost in understanding you on Rhinox.

What Fishy first said:

DGB on myk’s question is bad. If she finds the question, and responses, serious scumtells, why this, after the question and some responses:

Who do you suspect, DGB? Why are you not voting?

No one, that should answer both questions.
@ mykonian You're asking for my scumtells? How the heck should I know. I'm different in every game. Every game has a rhythm, and an atmosphere.

If the question and the answerers are scummy, why didn’t you suspect anyone?
After she does say that people who answered are scum (208), she fails to notice 2 of the 3 players who answered it (farside, me). farside immediately points this out (212). DGB ignores this for a long time, which seems very odd – she is now using it as a serious argument, so why on earth wouldn’t she look at the responses to the question until they were shoved in her face for a third time?
This inconsistent pushing of a scumtell doesn’t look like a serious attempt to work out who the scum are – more like a convenient reason for votes/suspicions.

What Rhinox, with to you grandly townread-inducing originality said:

Fishy brings up a good point about DGB in this post. If DGB was so concerned that answering mykos question was scummy, why wasn't she paying more attention to see who all actually answered the question. That would be an excellent opportunity for a townie to catch scum. Instead, DGB was lazy about it. It makes it seem like scum lazy pretend scum hunting. A townie genuinely scum hunting would have been keeping a close eye out for other players committing the tell.

[Ojanen]

I played with DGB scum. Weren't you here yesterday? oh right, you weren't. It's lynch-the-actives mafia. *ker-sigh*

I don't think you ever said that explicitly.

Nice of you to have determined my future course of action already before I have btw.

Why. Is. Rhinox .Town?

[Ojanen]

Rhinox seems to be pushing the policy lynch thing.

False, actually.

Hoopla, so you seem to prefer a pops lynch to a CSL one? Why does your vote not reflect that?

More later.

[Ojanen]

unvote; vote: pops

[Ojanen]

I think the general move from pops to CSL is funny and prob includes scum, this guy might be fakeclaiming but I guess we'll find out so let's lynch the guy he's been pushing?

[Ojanen]

Hello, anti-prod post. went dark on access due to being abroad, but I'll have internet plus a lot of free time starting from tonight, with reread and content. this should be the last post of this kind your resident excuse poster needs to post, my february of death is over.

[Ojanen]

Hi.
I am in the dark about D1, but I relooked D2.

I get the feeling I really really should think Fishy's town based on his pushing of pops and reversing the wagon situation from evilsnail leading pops 5-3 to 4-4, but my gut still isn't sure. Fishy, could you link to any towngames where you were way sensitive to little pressure?
Also, can you talk through your vote on pops in 1155 - what were the factors that led you to lay it down on pops rather than CSL?

There could be a benefit in that the bandwagon of Pops essentially formed twice. The slowness of the wagon at first gave scum enough time to bus.

myko, what did you mean by this exactly?

The leading suspicions on Hoopla and evilsnail, well yes, I think they are both relatively scummy.
I was going to vote for evilsnail based on his snipes of little content and fluff all through the late pops wagon and semi-non-committality on it, but this gave me serious pause

Pops's response to Ojanen seems off. Considering that pops is pursuing a policy lynch on CSL and not making a case on anyone himself, dismissing all available cases out of hand is really unproductive. Also, I think Ojanen made some fair points about Rhinox's play. I read over pops's ISO and she hasn't contributed real cases in a long time (which I realise now some players have been pointing out for a while). I don't know how this measures up to pops's meta, but it is certainly not helping us.

Why didn't you vote for pops here, evil?

To be completely honest with you, I didn't want to seem scummy. At the time, I was being accused of being opportunistic around the major wagons and I was worried it would just attract more attention. I hate getting lynched as town.

Because this snippet of explanation just really seemed townish/non-fabricated.
And he's limiting his options a lot with his suspicion targets too.
So Hoopla is scummier.

pops was either trying to clumsily connect himself to a townie or sprout multi-layer wifom regards to Rhinox. I'm leaning at the moment somewhat more like I was wrong and he's town.

Raskol, myko scum are not out of the question.

If the world was perfect I would loooove to be taking a small break from mafia right now (farside and Elli know why , another game). But instead I have this 70-page game going on with an all-time low contribution from me. So I'll be trying force myself to psyche up and in any case play this every day from now on that I have time. But this is the maximum I could be bothered to post today.
No vote yet, cause I have no confidence yet on my reads here atm. (Fence-sit, yes, but that's the truth.)

[Ojanen]

Day 4 Vote Count

CSL ( 0 )
elvis_knits ( 0 )
evilsnail ( 0 )
starbuck ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
mykonian ( 1 ) spyrex
ojanen ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )
spyrex ( 0 )
Haylen ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 9 ) gayle ojanen starbuck CSL evilsnail fishythefish Ellibereth Haylen mykonian
Total Votes ( 10 )

With 10 alive, 6 needed to lynch.
Deadline: March 17th 12:00 EST

/'slayer

[Ojanen]

@Starbuck: D1 lasted until about page 40 so you don't have exceedingly much to catch up, D2 featured a lynch on scum-pops and D3 a quickish lynch on town-Hoopla so both at least relatively interesting.

@Spyrex: When clearing people based on scumflips, note from which universe they are, the 2 scumgroups are separate. Haylen and Elli (and now Starbuck) are from the other universe so would be in other scumgroup. I find Haylen scummy and Elli not so much, but you can't clear Elli based on pops flip.

[Ojanen]

I had a bit of time to look at this in the night, but I need more isoing before I lay down my vote.
The remaining U1 scum (not paying mind the possibility of teleported scum in Rhinox/Plum right now) should be in CSL/Spyrex/myko/evilsnail. (I will naggingly look at Fishy once more, but that would mean really considerable bussing.)
Of this bunch, pops had a mild positive opinion of all except CSL (well he turned round to state suspicion of evilsnail right in the end, but otherwise Raskol a.k.a Spyrex was "cranky town", evilsnail case was "meh", myko was pretty townish and "another victim of the girls' club").

Pops wanted to policy lynch CSL, and I have been wavering on what this means. Currently I actually still find him scummy. The things that worry me: the reason he was originally using for policy lynch argument was bad (posting brief posts for the entirety of games) and he could have used a much more incriminating (good-looking) reasoning against CSL, like calling CSL out for apparent lying about finding the slip independently on D1 etc.
Second thing, CSL, who is known for his awful bandwagoning, delays putting down a vote D2 for a long time, not even to save himself when him and pops are the wagons. And CSL is very hard to read but this could be a super clumsy attempt at incriminating Rhinox. (he still had not layed down his vote on pops/anyone this time, btw)

/ghost slay

Also, from the looks of it, the majority is saying pops is scum. Rhinox said pops is town.

Odd..

Spyrex: What meta knowledge of him in your possesion do you think myko references?

I remember some people putting CSL down as town, could they refresh my memory on the reasoning?

[Ojanen]

I would find it unusual if neither of pops' scumbuddies bussed pre-claim, it took a long time to form, the wagon. Especially with daytalking scum.

popsofctown

( 7 )

gayle

elvis_knits

fishythefish

Ellibereth

farside22

CSL

Hoopla

Ellibereth is from the other universe, and I'll eat my hat if Gayle is scum. Leaves CSL and Fishy as only possible bussers.

[Ojanen]

O powerful wizard and hater of meta, have you played with CSL before?

[Ojanen]

When vote analysis leaves so little possible scum, you may want to rethink your assumptions. CSL is quite out of the question (elli, why would anyone go on for page after page how his scumbuddy should be lynched, while it is totally possible that it happens?) and I don't think fishy scum. You might want to ask: did scum bus? And if they did, didn't they do it when Pops was the certain lynch (the second time)? The longer it forms, the less likely everybody wanted to be on the wagon. Meaning scum maybe wanted to stay off.

Your first sentence is craplogic, getting a clear result in itself in no straightforward way implies assumptions should be rethought.
The second wagon was after the counterclaim, pops was all but confirmed scum and any town or scum would have equally just voted him, that is not even bussing anymore in the meaningful sense of the word. If someone was bussing in the hopes of towncred, it happened on the way leading up to claim.
So I do take note of that wagon.
myko, what is making you vote Spyrex over evilsnail, who you wanted to lynch yesterday?

[Ojanen]

Oh oops, missed previous myko post.
myko, can you give specific post numbers/snippets to what gives you pause about evilsnail?

[Ojanen]

Day 4 Vote Count

CSL ( 1 ) Ellibereth
elvis_knits ( 0 )
evilsnail ( 1 ) fishythefish
starbuck ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
mykonian ( 1 ) spyrex
ojanen ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )
spyrex ( 1 ) mykonian
Haylen ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 6 ) gayle ojanen starbuck CSL evilsnail Haylen
Total Votes ( 10 )

With 10 alive, 6 needed to lynch.
Deadline: March 17th 12:00 EST

if you read my response, I was saying that there was little to get from Hoopla's lynch. That the hammer was too quick, but I don't consider it scummy.

Not really.

I would expect scum to be on the Hoopla wagon, and for later: I suspect Elli more then Haylen.
Further, the wagon formed quickly in the start, so one cannot say a lot about the order there.

She doesn't commit to a stance on the pops lynch - but I understand that; I certainly wouldn't says pops was obvscum.

But you were stacking up cases against him. Do you mean not obvscum from general expected average scummer perspective or how?

[Ojanen]

I'm rereading stuff tonight, in the meantime, myko I think you missed this, could you reply?

myko, can you give specific post numbers/snippets to what gives you pause about evilsnail?

(which was referring to

Evil is still interesting, but his admitting his scummy things makes me worry

)

Fishy's unvote, giving towncred for Evilsnail giving OTT towncred, unleashes some towncred to Fishy.

[Ojanen]

[quote="Fishythefish"]What does OTT mean?/quote]
Over the top.
Not horribly accurate phrase to use actually. But you know. The pronouncing of across the board townreads. Something unusual and thus moderately attackable (I don't find it a scumtell either), but you chose to back off.

myko, take your time. I mainly wanna get you to pinpoint the moment in time you got the doubts.
Why am I in the townread bunch in your latest post, I thought you had a no-read on me?

[Ojanen]

Ojanen, the start of the day after Pops got lynched I have made that post.

In which you voted evilsnail, yes, yes, that is not what I'm asking.
I'm trying to get out of you the trigger of your

doubts

about evilsnail's scumminess.

Further, those groups were made on what the total group agrees on, meaning that fishy (evil's suspect, but towny according to the rest; ojanen, neutral for myko, town for the rest; CSL, mostly considered town, but with doubts about heavy bussing) are left out because the big majority agrees on them being likely town. The more people agree on it, the more likely it is right (there is a big amount of townies that agrees on it).

I can't say I really get this, mostly because you're simplifying the trends a lot. And the pool isn't huge, there are 1-2 scum here and the group of people possessing reads in this game besides yourself right now is 7.

[Ojanen]

1-2 U1 scum here, to be accurate.

[Ojanen]

CSL, could you give me the definition of bussing?
(serious question)

[Ojanen]

Not done yet, feeling toolish for not voting yet. But I'll have my vote today.
I was just about to go for CSL. The problem I found with that is pops' very final action. He stalled with the claiming and then claimed teleporter, and announced CSL as his scumread - the general mood was him or CSL at that point. Fishy had suggested that in the case of a fakeclaim the teleporter doesn't have to necessarily claim, outing pops as scum by teleporting him away is possible, too. And CSL was the one that gathered the swinging votes after pops' claim, before elvis'.
If this scenario had actually happened - CSL scumlynch and pops outed as scum - that would have sucked epically hard for their team, pointless loss of 2 instead of 1. Risky play from pops if CSL=scum, although I guess teleporter was rather likely to claim.
About myko's play, I find it actually very hard to try and read him in iso, I just phase out after a bit every time I start again, that's why I didn't get this done yesterday. I don't mean this badly, myko, being hard to read has advantages in mafia, too. The recent impression from his play has been that he has looked at arguments kind of backwards - when the conclusion doesn't suit his ideas he discredits the argument before thinking in through. But I dunno. Looking at him, I like the fact that he originally tried to discourage ABR vs. DGB as personality stuff. The way he expresses that pops is townish when it's inevitable he's gonna be lynched looks somewhat earnest too.

It's hard for me to believe there would have been no bussing at all of pops with such a longtime wagon and daytalking scum. The other option is missing scumpartners, let me check the wagon now again.

[Ojanen]

LOL. This is too hard. I'm starting to wonder if my English is rusty.
DEAR MYKONIAN.
My question is

NOT

when and why you started to think evil is scum.
My question is: Please quote the snippets and triggers that CHANGED YOUR MIND about evilsnail after you wanting to lynch him yesterday.
LOVE, OJ

[Ojanen]

When pops claimed teleporter he KNEW there'd be a CC. Which meant the chances of a non-teleporter claim being lynched was 0 (and allowed scum to eliminate the then confirmed town) So, best case he was getting lynched the next day, worst case that day - which means we'd see the flips in the wrong order and go "would scum DO that?"
The only way it would have fell apart would have been if somehow everyone went "ohh yea two teleporters is fine lets lynch CSL" and then it would have been a true 2-1.

Well I thought likemindedly but this got me somewhat

I think pops should claim now.
It should be noted that if someone fake claims teleporter, now or at any other time, the teleporter has the option of teleporting away the fake claim - thus outing them - instead of counterclaiming. Whether this is a good idea depends on things in the other universe as well as over here, but it's at least worth considering.

Actually that's a good idea because then we know the person is a liar and the teleporter doesn't have to counter claim.

Because it was presented just a little before the claim, so a risk would have been involved.
Although I guess would have been unlikely that the teleporter would have let pops get the lynch he had been pushing. But still.

[Ojanen]

But that coupled with the fact that pops was lurking a bit before the claim, getting closer to deadline which was under 24h from his claim if I remember correctly, that got me.

[Ojanen]

Infodump @Spyrex (Elli what do you think?) [timezones mine]:
Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:25 am: Hoopla L-1 vote

should i claim yet?

evil, fishy, elvis say he should (with fishy's comment about possibility to not cc fakeclaimer)

Why is pops dragging this out?
If we get to deadline, somebody better be willing to hammer him, with or without a claim.

I'm the teleporter.
I'll teleport CSL tonight, if you hold off this inane lynch.
If you lynch me through the claim, I suspect elvis the most of being the scum on my wagon. She's been pushing me the most "just because".
Rhinox isn't scum. Myk and fishy probably aren't. CSL probably is, because the actives dont seem that scummy.

DEADLINE:
Feb 23, 1.00 am.

Claim circa 19 hours before deadline with some dragging; from L-1 about 3 days, from "should I claim?" about 1,5.
He says he'll teleport CSL but he also says CSL scum and has his vote there.

[Ojanen]

OMG
neither evilsnail nor zoraster have talked about replacement for evilsnail.
he was active before you changed your preference to Spyrex.
just pleeeease answer the question

[Ojanen]

CSL ace5993

evilsnail

Starbuck

fishythefish

gayle

mykonian

ojanen

SpyreX Raskol

Ellibereth

Haylen Maelyn

If I would vote right now it would be Spyrex.
Because I wasn't a fan of Raskol's early play, but for more than anything, PoE, as seen above.
SpyreX hasn't done anything tangibly scummy nor excruciatingly townish (and I'm trying to get over the fact that I'm a secret admirer of his. ) But out of people I could imagine voting (Spyrex, evil, myko) the others just have given me more pause with townish signals in the mix, although evil's slot has a more conventionally scummy relation to pops during the lynch.
Raskol's replacing out isn't scummy in itself (I saw him do that as town before) but absent buddyslots would be viable for why no apparent distancing from pops would have happened.

More in a sec.

[Ojanen]

Spyrex, was there something else to the myko disrepancy than the statement about jack on D1 and stating that U2 scum is to be found from Hoopla wagon, not U1? I see the second point and was wondering about it, hence mentioned myko seemingly working through arguments starting from set conclusion back. But the first, yeah, myko was somewhat snappier in tone on the jack line, but do you really see his play at that time overall vaguer? Stuff like iso 16 (almost overconfident to me)?

[Ojanen]

I'm procrastinating with this miserably because I lack proper meaty scumreads here.
I could go with either Spyrex, myko or evilsnail, with myko as least preferred of those for now.
I don't read Spyrex or evil as more negative than neutral (Spyrex) or completely mixed signals of town and scum (evilsnail). But dammit.

vote: evilsnail

for now, contradicting what I earlier said about thinking to vote Spyrex. Cause I don't really see scum in his posts.

I completely agree with Spyrex about seeing SCUMSCUMSCUM every time CSL votes, but he's still out of the table.

[Ojanen]

That post must come off as weird, with the "cause I don't really see scum" part because it's true of evilsnail's last posts too to me, as I've expressed.
Basically it's a thing where I just can't decide.
evilsnail's voting record stinks a little more, but then, that's bound to happen with Raskol out of the game.
procrastinating with a vote is the most pointless thing to do, I guess, so I just picked.

[Ojanen]

I actually have lots of thoughts; the problem was they didn't seem to lead to clearcut conclusions. But there's not exactly too much noise in the thread.

I am uncomfortable with the puff of wifom from evilsnail on my blatant wishy washiness today voting him being townish if anything. Because it's another anti-opportunistic puff, townish bit from him, dammit.

So I'm writing out stuff tonight on myko, snail, Spyrex and taking it from there again if mulling it aloud helps me or someone else.

Stuff of interest on

mykonian

first

-No teleportation strategy proponent (there is a scum motivation for this, but minor tell at best. Driving a strategy from the get-go scum think would in some obvious way benefit them is not scum's nature on average.)
-"what are your scumtells when you are scum" question hulabaloo.
I don't find the "I want to make scum uncomfortable" thought process implausible nor especially naive as others did.
The only thing to see here is that his own answer seems stuff he could easily change up in format (PBPAs, fakeclaim crumbs). Manipulating stances gradually is the only more non-specific part and harder to change up in is answer.

wait, we are at the start of the game, I have asked a question, you are saying you caught scum by it, but it is useless?
unvote vote DGB If you have a mindset where catching scum is pointless, you are scum. I am certain this was a major scumslip.

Early DGB vote; reasoning is totally fine, gut slightly growls at the last sentence though
-Is sensitive/borderline hurt to language calling his argument stupid. (Raskol interaction)

Raskol seems genuinely cranky in a townie way.

If you let away every scum that insults the players attacking him, but doesn't actually defend, you are making this game way too easy. It is site-meta that people showing emotion (be this aggression or anger) are towny. This is known, but easily abused.

This is interesting, I think he believes this, which leads to the fact that he would abuse it as scum (look at previous Raskol interaction).
I should check out if he's generally sensitive.

For me, it is and will remain a significant point against you,

I know it will be. Esspecially since slips are very strong evidence, it will be remembered. So every next argument against me will end with: and he had the slip.
Unfortunate is an understatement. People will now read every point as if I'm trying to manipulate them.

I would expect an average non-guilty person to demean the point much more rather than say "I know this is awful". Slips/typos are really really random as scumtells.
What makes this a weaker gut argument is that it's consistent with myko using extremely strong language that DGB had made a scumlip earlier in the game.
Iso 50 and 52 are townish. ABR/DGB fight is apparently starting up at that time. He wants to resolve it by teleporting due to the apparently personal nature of the conflict. Of course, this would keep scumteam intact, too. But town/town fight discouraging is still pluspoints.

..ugh but then right away 54 he votes DGB. A DGB wagon wasn't up though.

PS: Hoopla, you have seen one of my recent games. The game where I tried to look very protown (in stead of trying to find scum). Here is how I play when I have to find scum.

Spyrex will facepalm at me epically but there's something gut-townish about saying this line.

uhm, no. I never get myself lynched as town. That scum will attack me is great. Let them. We all know what that mistake means, and people react to it. People will react to it day 2, day 3. etc.

Contrary to the amount of posting and scumhunting I try to do in those games, I am often the first or second lynch.
Now, this is such a sad story, but that part is my problem, and I'm working on that. But if your problem with me is essentially that your gut says I'm manipulating, then I'm afraid you have found my normal playstyle

I don't see the scum motivation for this complete contrast but weird stuff on self statements whether he gets lynched.

Pops I have no meta on. He seems to be a player here for the fun, not the actual winning of the game (sig + his totally useless posts). If this is not true, and someone knows him well enough that he really cares about this game, then something weird is going on here. Esspecially since he started the game as towny in my eyes, I can't understand his latest play.

He does express this on late D1 about pops' play.

You don't listen about CSL's meta, do you. You just hammer on about what you said already, without listening to anything.
and now we have this. Seriously. Is this your attempt to look town by switching your vote now and then by "scumhunting"?

Well that makes me like my vote less...

unvote csl; vote popsofctown

Pops is not scum hunting this game. He's making a lot of jokes, off-topic comments about avatars or whatever. I am fine with jokes and banter, but not if you don't also scum hunt. He's not asking many questions, and if he does ask questions they don't seem very probing. Like he's not trying. He's not engaging people in discussion to try to find out their allignment. He's sitting there, making a few half-hearted attempts, and making sure people like him because he's saying funny stuff.
And now he's like "I don't see and obvscum, so vote CSL. BTW CSL has been ridiculously scummy this game." If he's been ridiculously scummy, why isn't he obvscum? I don't get it. I don't think pops is helping.

...which has some contrast to his reaction to elvis' reasoning on D2, which is identical in nature until the point about CSL.

Elvis, I have been very clear I feel there are better lynches then Pops. I disagree with the lynch. Take a look at the votecount, you would say I was vote-parking anyway.

am I scummy for not wanting this lynch? [snip]

This at pops end of long first wagon, L-2 or something. Very tricksy posting if he's scum, feels townish.

mykonian is much more anti-Raskol throughout the game I had really remembered, which I note with interest. Additional motivation for being hypo-SpyreX-scum's target; makes me speculate less about the significance of myko going after SpyreX today instead of continuing 'snailhate

[Ojanen]

Except he was anti-Raskol until I replaced in and then it was....??? until I posted versus applying pressure.

Ok, I'll look at that again. Just glanced and you may have a point. I only really looked D1-3, myko is hard to read for me in big quantities.

And, while not a facepalm I look at most of that and go "why does she think that makes town???"

What do you mean?
I think I got a very mixed observation crop; I don't have an overall townread on him. I can see 2 obscure points that are about tone that would make you ask that in there (self-meta, calling inevitable pops wagon bad and asking question from one of the originators of the wagon whether not agreeing with the wagon makes him look bad), but I don't think explaining them would help, unless you want more transparency on your read on me specifically.

[Ojanen]

Fell asleep before finishing last night, will do that today.

Ultimately? If Myko was town I'd say one of,

if not both

, Plum and Rhinox were scum and the other split lies in the above.

I think Plum AND Rhinox scum is something we can almost 100% rule out btw.

At night, your team may choose to shoot one person. You may shoot someone in any universe that your team has a player alive in.

On N3, scum killed farside here. Pops was dead, Plum and Rhinox were teleported away. Only people who could have done the kill if the teleported players would have been scum from OU, at that time only Elli/Haylen. Unless they would have known U1 scum wouldn't make a kill in U1 (very implausible), it would have been an extremely stupid move from them to signal that HEY there's scum in the 2 of us.

Plum and Rhinox are not scum together.

[Ojanen]

It is surprising how you both (spyrex-evilsnail) seem to poke if there is any interest for a CSL lynch.

Elli and me also. I was just on the brink of voting CSL when I looked at the timeline and scenarios just before the pops lynch deadline again.
I thought bussing was plausible before examining that, changed my mind only based on that argument, which is also what SpyreX did. That's why I think lumping Spyrex and evilsnail together on it doesn't sit right.

Pops was making a lot of noise and rubble against CSL without being very effective in actually getting him lynched and support to the cause due to the aggressive policy reasoning. Not that implausible for bussing to me prior to looking at claim time, pops had enough intensity to gain some town credit imo if CSL flipped scum, long-standing voting/voting at critical junctures and stuff.

At the time, pops was the only one voting CSL. A counterwagon could have formed on me just as easily. I don't think we can really say with that much certainty what pops was expecting to happen. Also, it was consistent with what pops had been saying throughout that day. It's not like he had that much room to manoeuvre.

He stalled with the claim.
It would have been possible that the real teleporter wouldn't even have had the chance to even check the thread during the last 18 hours before deadline, depending who it was. There was just a strategy presented were the real teleporter wouldn't even have to necessarily claim if fake claim happened.
I had a strong impression the general sentiment was "lynch pops, teleport CSL" or the other way around during the late day.

[Ojanen]

Day 4 Vote Count

CSL ( 0 )
evilsnail ( 3 ) Ellibereth CSL ojanen
starbuck ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
mykonian ( 1 ) spyrex
ojanen ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )
spyrex ( 2 ) mykonian fishythefish
Haylen ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 4 ) gayle starbuck evilsnail Haylen
Total Votes ( 10 )

With 10 alive, 6 needed to lynch.
Deadline: March 17th 12:00 EST

'slayer
So I sort of agree with Spyrex's view on this latest turn.

[Ojanen]

evilsnail, why is mykonian probably town to you?

[Ojanen]

@Phate
Don't really relate to how this helps you, but you're town due to pops and Gayle play so why not and maybe Starbuck and Haylen will get something out of it too.

Day 1: all around strategy stuff that in the end didn't result to a distinct teleportation Plan due to mod explaining and specifying rules to players. There was an early wagon on you, Raskol, some on myko too, and CSL of course but soon enough the major dynamics locked into a DGB vs. ABR town/town conflict (ugh never seen that before...), attacks on each other largely based on meta/accusations of not paying attention.
Players were divided to high participation and can't keep up camps.
DGB ended up L-1. Claimed across the universe mason. ABR wanted to lynch him anyway, had a post that resembled softcounterclaiming. ABR got quicklynched. (deadline pretty near and wanting to be in the night not much later than U2). DGB was supposed to be pulled by the other universe's teleporter but they played pretty stupid and teleported Elli to us instead. DGB got killed and we don't really understand how scum did that unless they were here right in the time window of some minutes of difference of U2 night ending, seeing she wasn't teleported and changing their action. Because her getting pulled should have really been a mutually benefiting lock if the U2 teleporter would have had sense, and U2 teleporter had priority in their action to our scum (entered night 10 minutes prior or so).
elvis teleported Plum out (didn't like her Plum vote).
Whole holabaloo of D1 consists 40 pages of this thread and lots of short posts/fluff.

D2: lynch on pops-scum. Slooowly forming wagon, held at 4 votes for pretty long, poopular reasoning bad bandwagoning of ABR/DGB and light content. Other major later day avenue CSL. Pops stalled with the claiming some, then claimed teleported. Elvis counterclaimed, we lynched pops. Elvis was nkd. Rhinox was pulled to the other universe, I thought he was fishy but apparently U2 teleporter thought town. Or was Haylen teleported here first and Rhinox then out D3? Don't remember, order not that relevant though.

D3: Fast lynch on Hoopla (town). Slip about pops very late D2 or so was thought. Second most suspected person prob evilsnail. Starbuck teleported in by our teleporter N3.

D4: not that long, today, you can skim it. Many people are a little directionless and operating by process of elimination. Spyrex and mykonian want to lynch each other. Despite teleportation stuff we are guaranteed to have at least one of the two U2 scum here. We are not concentrating on looking at the teleported people for now. Elli is the only one out of the dearly teleported him, Haylen and Starbuck who is caught up and playing the game.
Town is CSL, your slot, prob Fishy.
So I'm looking at evil, SpyreX, myko for scum.

[Ojanen]

These are big enough to EBWOP

Despite teleportation stuff we are guaranteed to have at least one of the two U2 scum here.

Universe one I meant!

elvis teleported Plum out (didn't like her

Plum

DGB vote).

[Ojanen]

Primarily I guess because he backed off on me today. But I also had a town read on him predating that, from Day 1 and 2.

Why did you have not have a townread on Day 3?
I don't quite get how this backing off works with your read. You don't see it as possibly reactional to SpyreX induced happenings?

[Ojanen]

SpyreX, how do you feel about these regards to your initial myko case:

wait, we are at the start of the game, I have asked a question, you are saying you caught scum by it, but it is useless?

unvote vote DGB

If you have a mindset where catching scum is pointless, you are scum. I am certain this was a major scumslip.

Added to this that this post by raskol was made just after he was accused of bringing little new, this is seriously scummy. Attacking fishy on something that you just found (but couldn't quote?) and which already sounds meh without a quote...

I agree

vote raskol

You completely forgot what you did with fishy, and went for the next target, with a less then spectacular case. Where are you going to run next?

[snip semi-wall to Raskol]
Raskol, you are scum that has the problem that he can't find townies to attack savely.

DGB, I find it funny how you try to talk this into a conspiracy. First, albert must be scum, then, before the game, he must have communicated what you were going to do, but he didn't take actions to prohibit it. In stead, he asked his scumbuddy to ask for a teleportation after you would vote him. Seriously, this is reaching.

unvote vote DGB

Fabricating evidence, no matter how weird you play, is not town.

etc.
I've asked before... but treat me like an idiot. Explain me the major difference in tone to

@ the other universe. Jack is trying to be smart and manipulative.
Town doesn't manipulate. Jack is scum.

@Docpotter: posts 220 and 224 show how Jack takes a quote, and in then makes it so that the person is essentially arguing against himself. He reasons logically from the quote to get to something untrue in Elmo's case, and actually attacks Fghtwas with it.

Since both players obviously didn't intent for their words to be used this way, Jack is strawmanning. He tries to be smarter then the rest of the game by logically deriving the others are wrong, from their own words.

[Ojanen]

Eh.. forget what I said earlier. CSL is town. This isn't scum-play.

He's not scum, but why does

that

post reverse your read?

[Ojanen]

@Oj:
Find somewhere related to THIS universe where he says: "X is scum.

Quote no. 4? Admittedly from your hypo-town-perspective it would be on town, but Jack was on town too?

You did say the dying line to me right? I'd so sig that.

[Ojanen]

Which ISO post is that quote from #4?

Motherfather that might put a kink in things.

Iso 23.
Seriously?

[Ojanen]

Motherfather that might put a kink in things.

Why did you not read what I quoted first by yourself?
Was your initial case actually truly based on the precise semantic of saying "X is scum"?

[Ojanen]

The clear nature of having "X is scum" in an otherwise concise/short post to the other universe was your initial case against myko.

That stuck the scum chord and the rest of the play has just been singing the chorus.

So saying "X is scum" has been pinpointed to be the major point and it

only

counts if there is no longer reasoning attached before it. The probability is that does not have to do with mykonian being more in in his own game.
So "x is scum" to Raskol doesn't count for that reason.

unvote vote DGB

If you have a mindset where catching scum is pointless, you are scum.

I am certain this was a major scumslip.

Added to this that this post by raskol was made just after he was accused of bringing little new,

this is seriously scummy

. Attacking fishy on something that you just found (but couldn't quote?) and which already sounds meh without a quote..

DGB, I find it funny how you try to talk this into a conspiracy. First, albert must be scum, then, before the game, he must have communicated what you were going to do, but he didn't take actions to prohibit it. In stead, he asked his scumbuddy to ask for a teleportation after you would vote him. Seriously, this is reaching.

unvote vote DGB

Fabricating evidence, no matter how weird you play,

is not town.

"If X, you are scum. I am certain X is a major scumslip" and "Concept X you did is not town" do not count because it was to town-DGB, so it was just spagetti.
However, even though from your hypo-town-perspective saying "Raskol is scum" should have also been spagetti for the same reason, you needed to possibly reevaluate based on the rhetoric there. "This is seriously scummy" in a short post to Raskol doesn't count either, because it doesn't read "You are scum.".

You need to convince me you are genuinely scumhunting with this case here. I don't believe you anymore.

unvote; vote: SpyreX

(L-2)

Explain the thought process once more, still assuming I'm an idiot.

[Ojanen]

evilsnail, your prior experience with CSL please.

[Ojanen]

What the frak..
to make sure:

@mod: does the town teleporter's action always resolve at the end of the night?

U2 lynched town again and now has 6 players, no dead flipped scum.
springlullaby was teleported here by their mafia, I think?

[Ojanen]

Ok. Awaiting the end of their night with obsessive interest. Their teleporter is bound to push. I assume springlullaby town for now.

[Ojanen]

All of our U2 people are prob town.

[Ojanen]

And strike that prob. Their town teleporter is not gonna teleport. Unless I'm totally missing something, we have a really nice situation in this universe and a lost cause in the other.

[Ojanen]

@mod:

looking at the wincons, will a game end in a mafia win when nothing can possibly prevent them from winning (e.g. 3 mafia, 2 town, no town teleporter) or would they have to still manually lynch/kill the 2 townies in that scenario?

[Ojanen]

No teleporting U2ers thoughts for now, I think.
All of the U2 people are very likely town.

[Ojanen]

^that

[Ojanen]

But we have eleven people here.
What do you think is happening then?

[Ojanen]

Oh, ten. But still.

[Ojanen]

Congrats scum, and thanks for modding zoraster!

I thought the teleporting mechanic was really fun when I was the teleporter. Powerhunger and all that. But from the vanilla standpoint, I wasn't so sure. I can't really put my finger on why, but it was psychologically somehow irritating to have these people who seemed possible scum to be out of reach, out of being able to effectively interact with them about the relevant universe, out of being able to consider getting flips until much later. And the inbuilt drawback of having an endgame consisting of several townies who never really got into the game due to the large amount of catching up was imo rather anti-climatic. Like an early, hyperactive phase followed by a ghost town of mostly people who were never involved and scum.
The U1 endgame was still winnable for town through realizing that CSL can't be scum (yes, the wretched timestamp argument). Especially Gayle deserves imo a lot of credit for her scumplay though. I believe I have a hat to eat due to her.

[Ojanen]

...Wow. evilsnail, PLEASE start acting more townie at all times.

AAAAAAARGH
CSL you do an impressive job of making my blood boil. You're great at trolling yet it doesn't seems forced.
You really should stop screwing up your team though.

[Ojanen]

Not reading the game wasn't that deviant here, you weren't the only one to miss it. But please. Please. Please constrain yourself with the impulse to go always to the self-voting/self-hammering stuff. It's just villainous.

[Ojanen]

Cool.