Mini 907: Tech Tree Mafia (End Game)

[zoraster]

Vote: Vaya

for being a neutral race. Get involved!

[zoraster]

Vote Tarhalindur

Obv scum.

So, at first I was gonna be like "Hey, everyone, instead of lynching and killing, let's all go for a Technology Victory", but then Tar told me that'd be a terrible idea. So, that said, any ideas for gamebreakery given the new settings?

If not, I'm obviously going for a vig .

I thought about this, but realized that scum can kill one every night other than night 1, so it'd turn out to be, if a normal 9v3 (obviously that's a huge assumption):
After Night.. Town's Choice.. Mafia's Choice
0 Boost - BP
1 9v3 Grant Bonus - Vengeful
2 8v3 Masonify - Vengeance
3 7v3 Tech Victory - Vigilante
4 6v3 Timer 1 - Kill Townie
5 2v3 Timer 2 - Mafia wins

The only problem is that Mafia may go for vig as well, get an extra kill. Or a townie who gets vengeful might shoot and kill someone else. Also, anyone who goes for the tech victory might die and because town isn't really going for a win other than tech victory, anyone killed loses. Tech victory is anti-town, so let's not go down that road.

The thing we most have to look out for as town is getting vote screwed. Double vote and rig election could be really powerful for scum as it may end a lynch very unexpectedly. As a result, we have to be careful at any mylo/lylo situation.

Bulletproof will be a handy tool to have for pretty much all town. I think it might be a good idea to have everyone grab that either tonight, last night or perhaps night 2. It "wastes" a night of inventing/actions, but it also neutralizes several scum kills (scum then has to kill someone twice to take them out). Other than BP, I think diversifying will be good. But what do you guys think? Should everyone get BP tonight if they haven't already?

[zoraster]

I don't think we should specify who got BP and who didn't. I think we SHOULD all move towards getting NK-immunity with BP as the next action for those who didn't get it.

This isn't terrible, although it's really only relevant if you want to pick Blink first, and frankly Blink is a pretty anti-town role (it doesn't HAVE to be, but it's more scum friendly than town friendly by default). That said, it does lead to Bus Driver which is a prereq for THREE level 3 roles (I don't know that any other role allows this): Doctor, Watcher, and Redirector. Still, I think so long as we say that everyone should have either BP or NK Immunity by night 2, we're golden. There's not much reason to get both unless you're really paranoid and going for Revive.

And yes, we technically COULD have everyone come out and go for a tech victory, but why bother play?

[zoraster]

Are you sure you understand the point of that post malth? I was showing why having everyone go for Tech Win would allow Mafia to win. It wasn't a "plan," in fact it was proof of why the plan wouldn't work.

[zoraster]

Well, since Tar clarified that if everyone went for Tech Win it wouldn't work, and I doubt everyone would have gone for it anyway.

Betting BP is good for everyone, but if Mafia have Boost it might not help any.

If they spent an invent on boost, then use boost (an active ability) while we merely get bulletproof (a passive ability that is automatically used) then we come out ahead by a turn because they're forced to use a low level ability rather than invent that turn and any future turns they want a kill to go through.

[zoraster]

EBWOP: Way more than a turn actually, as at least one mafia member will have to use boost every single turn rather than inventing and moving up the chain. A great result for the town.

[zoraster]

The bulletproof skill made a ton of sense to me too. Interrupting kills and getting extra lynches makes a ton of sense to me.

Everyone should note that the ability does not go into effect until the next morning, you cannot invent bulletproof and be protected the same day.

Although I did note the tier 2 ability that makes abilities unblockable. I assume that would apply to kills as well. And its PASSIVE.

However, why are you suggesting everyone get it Zoraster? IMO everyone should go down whatever tree/aim for whatever high level ability they selected rather then get multiple level 1 abilities. Do you disagree?

Because it's a level 1 ability that will take exactly one night worth of invention to get. It's FAR more effective if EVERYONE in the town does this than if only the people who don't want to die do it. If we say "just do what you want" then mafia only have to find the people who didn't do it to kill at night.

On the other hand, if everyone does it, it forces the mafia to either (1) shoot each person two nights in a row or (2) have someone who's boosting their mafia partner's kill every single night, thus not advancing up the tech tree.

Yes, for many people getting BP doesn't advance their own tech tree development. But the trade-off is definitely worth it as it'll actually increase the number of inventions town will get by increasing the number of town alive. This should be a town-wide policy.

[zoraster]

Crazy question? Why are we openly talking about our tech trees?

Because it's likely to help the town. We don't have to discuss what else we're doing yet, but whether or not to get BP (or if it's on your way, NK Immunity instead) is an important point that can help town.

[zoraster]

I don't think we should all get BP, since it has been pointed out that Boost will still make the kill go through. Divide and Conquer.

And as has been pointed out, that means whatever mafia uses boost won't be able to invent. So that's basically taking one mafia power role out for the entire game. Furthermore, toward the end of the game if it were to get down to just him, we're in a great spot as he can't boost himself and he'll have no powers to speak of, while we'll be fully charged. If we lynch the booster, then the mafia then have to invent boost again before their kill will go through (or double kill, which has a similar effect).

Divide and Conquer usually refers to dividing the ENEMY, not allies. And that may well be what you're trying to do here by preventing a sound town strategy. Given that it's time we get back to scum hunting:

Vote: Chaco

[zoraster]

If they spent an invent on boost, then use boost (an active ability) while we merely get bulletproof (a passive ability that is automatically used) then we come out ahead by a turn because they're forced to use a low level ability rather than invent that turn and any future turns they want a kill to go through.

Wrong. What other night actions will be useful then? Please do tell.

So say you start with BP, go to Nightkill Immune, and eventually end with Vig as many have expressed interest in. What then? Play Texas Justice?

Doesn't add up. A lot of the roles will then be of no use. Checking for self protection, and a kill? Well darn, EVERYONE has one. What good does this do?

I think you're stuck in your idealistic view of how this game can be broken.

Are you deliberately or merely accidentally misconstruing what I'm saying?

All I said was that everyone should get either BP OR Nightkill immunity in time for the mafia's first kill on night 2. That in NO WAY says that I think we should all go for the same tech tree.

For many if not most, it probably means grabbing BP and then getting whatever else they want, using BP as a little side excursion not in their own tree. For others, BP will be a natural stop along the vengeful, tracker, rolecop/revive track. Others might instead opt to go blink instead of BP and get NK Immunity (this is the path a potential doctor should take).

[zoraster]

If they spent an invent on boost, then use boost (an active ability) while we merely get bulletproof (a passive ability that is automatically used) then we come out ahead by a turn because they're forced to use a low level ability rather than invent that turn and any future turns they want a kill to go through.

Wrong. What other night actions will be useful then? Please do tell.

So say you start with BP, go to Nightkill Immune, and eventually end with Vig as many have expressed interest in. What then? Play Texas Justice?

Doesn't add up. A lot of the roles will then be of no use. Checking for self protection, and a kill? Well darn, EVERYONE has one. What good does this do?

I think you're stuck in your idealistic view of how this game can be broken.

Are you deliberately or merely accidentally misconstruing what I'm saying?

All I said was that everyone should get either BP OR Nightkill immunity in time for the mafia's first kill on night 2. That in NO WAY says that I think we should all go for the same tech tree.

For many if not most, it probably means grabbing BP and then getting whatever else they want, using BP as a little side excursion not in their own tree. For others, BP will be a natural stop along the vengeful, tracker, rolecop/revive track. Others might instead opt to go blink instead of BP and get NK Immunity (this is the path a potential doctor should take).

What use would a doctor be if you are NK immune, or bulletproof? All can be roleblocked and Boost surpasses all. Even more so global roleblock blocks all active abilities, passive, etc and they can still use a factional ability. It says so in the OP. What good does all that do then? One person, after they get to global roleblock, can use it each day/night and use a factional kill thus nullifying the use.

I'm not arguing it's a good stepping stone...where as I'm arguing the practicality from a projected stand point.

I did misunderstand, and nice use of word, but I still do not completely agree. I may be understanding how the game works as well, but I don't think I am entirely. I'll reread though...

Yeah, I'm not sure why you'd want to be a doctor at all in this game. By the by, I'm taking a look at it now... is it possible that BP is actually BETTER than NK Immune? NK Immune can be roleblocked whereas BP can't, it seems. The only benefit to NK Immune is that it's a second shot you can take after BP has been taken off.

But anyway, my point still stands: this is a good idea to do as a town on the whole. I don't care what people do after they take BP so long as they go for it.

[zoraster]

Also, Zoraster, I'd like you to closely check out the Thirds Post and tell me if you realize this game has a system of checks and balances.

Oh, I absolutely agree. I've taken a lot of time going through various scenarios and it's clear that most have been thought through very clearly. But that doesn't mean that certain methods won't give ADVANTAGES if we follow them through. The BP thing isn't perfect... it won't lead us to a win singlehandedly. We'll still need to scum hunt. But it does give us a significant advantage over scum, and it's one we should take.

Just because there's no way to absolutely break the game doesn't mean there's no way to take advantage of the game setup as a whole.

The Tech Tree is a distraction, quite honestly. And if we continue discussion it for much longer, we will be assisting scum more than helping town. I'd advise us to start considering buckling down and scumhunting. I really don't give five damns what power ANYONE has. Honestly, you probably shouldn't even care what power you have. We effectively are vanilla with benefits, and roles will NOT win this game.

I understand the set up of the game is going to gain discussion for the first few pages, hell, I even contributed to it, but Chaco is right. It's useless to try to plan anything out based on it. I think the best play at this point is effectively as vanilla. Anyone take issue with this?

I disagree with this. While I think it's important we get to scum hunting, discussion of the tech tree is absolutely vital to the town's success. Mafia will presumably have at the very least the night and possibly the day to hash out all their possibilities. Leaving town members, people who are probably of varying degrees of commitment to figuring out the tree, to do it on their own is to allow scum to have a significant advantage.

I'm not saying we should all announce what tech we're going for. But I think it's irresponsible not to discuss the implications of varying strategies. I haven't fully thought through everything, but even with the vote and recruit advantages scum has, I think the tree, properly used, serves to seriously help the town. The town should, in fact, win this game if we use the tech tree optimally.

Furthermore, to not discuss it allows scum to come through with a breaking strategy of their own that may well have a town counter -- if only we discuss it beforehand. I won't elaborate at this point, but I see a couple of ways this can come up and I'm sure there are others.

So no. I don't think the tree is just a disadvantage. To treat this game as merely another is to seriously underestimate the power of these roles.

But again, I agree with one thing: we still need to lynch scum. That, as always, is the key to this game.

[zoraster]

for what it's worth, it's not really setup speculation to talk about known elements of the game. It's speculation to suggest we might have a 9-3 or a 8-2-2 or a 8-3-1 or whatever; it's not to say that BP is helpful to town.

This isn't a game you can use tired mafiascum cliches (such as "don't setup speculate") without a reason besides common wisdom that's developed from normal and normal-like theme games.

[zoraster]

Okay.

unvote

for the moment as I think quite a bit has happened since my initial chaco vote and I have to really consider whether the reasons put onto chaco so far are my own.

[zoraster]

@Percy- Its easier to discuss ability usage to determine alignment then it is to play a normal game. Most scum know how to deal with a RVS, but don't neccesarily know how to discuss the open nature of a theme setup in a protown manner.

Whats dissapointing is the lack of feedback I get on my posts. This game has been incredibly uninteractive for me.

Are you going to snow me in with text walls like you did last game as scum Percy?

As outlined before I dislike Zoraster's wanting to push everyone one direction when it has been pointed out by numerous people that it is likely a waste of resources and its counter-able

His original reason for voting chaco is because Chaco was criticizing his stragegy (yes I am aware of the recent unvote, point stands). He has never adressed a mafia as a whole rushing recruit as a counter to his strategy when I brought it up. Town needs diversity. While yes having 1 town take a BP to stop 1 bullet is awesome, losing 9 actions to stop a few bullets is NOT optimal.

Vote: Zoraster

to see if he will actually listen to other people.

@all- Notice that Tar set a 4 day deadline now. We need to lynch someone today. And while I will be willing to deadline vote chaco, I do not think it is the best choice today. He seems just like how he was playing in Percy's cult game as town to me.

I've given it some thought. While I considered the possibility before, I didn't want to give voice to it too much.

The question is which gives us better chance.

My question to you, sajin, is this: how do you think Tar has balanced the game against recruitment in general?

Furthermore, what's the correct answer to this: given the chance to take away the mafia's kill power in exchange for allowing them to recruit on Night 4 (possibly, if they all went that way), which is better? We have to lynch scum by night 4 regardless or we're going to lose. Let's say we manage just one scum lynch and there are 3 mafia players on the same team (I think this may well be a bad assumption, but i don't want to get into too many wild whatifs):

In the scenario where everyone gets BP, and we lynch correctly on Day 2 it ends up being 4v4 but not necessarily end game 4v4. (no kill n1 (8v3), shot blocked n2 (8v2), one townie killed n3 (6v2), two townie recruited n4 and an attempted shot (4v4).

In the scenario where everyone does their own thing and we lynch correctly on Day 2 it ends up being 2v4 (after n0: no kill (9v3), n1: no kill (8v3), n2: kill townie (7v2), n3: kill townie (5v2), n4: recruit two townies kill townie (2v4))

Maybe i've made a mistake somewhere, but I think this is right. My point is this: by putting people in BP, we assure we have enough alive that when recruitment DOES occur, we have enough to still survive.

None of this is a replacement for scum hunting, and our chances increase incredibly the more we lynch scum.

Anyway: that comes to who to lynch. I don't think Chaco is a good choice, despite how close we are to the deadline. Obviously I'd rather lynch him than no lynch today, but rereading him doesn't make him seem very scummy to me. Both Malth and SSK seem better choices for today.

[zoraster]

a note? so someone sent you a note instead of inventing? that's interesting. why would that be?

[zoraster]

The message may not necessarily make them town, but I have to believe that scum have every reason to want to invent every single night. I'd think that with town as well, but i think there's even more reason scum would want to avoid wasting a night on something so pointless. Lots of WIFOM though, so I think just keep it in your pocket for now no reason to out or anything.

Though I will pose this possibility: UK could be lying.

[zoraster]

vote: vaya

[zoraster]

zoraster will have time a week from sunday to actually not piss off all of the people in the games he's playing in if anyone cares. I'm more than happy to replace out if that's the best option or stay in if that is. It was never my intention to be such a lurker-jerk, and especially in a game that is already suffering from activity problems. This is my fault.

[zoraster]

unvote