Mini 907: Tech Tree Mafia (End Game)

[Chaco]

If they spent an invent on boost, then use boost (an active ability) while we merely get bulletproof (a passive ability that is automatically used) then we come out ahead by a turn because they're forced to use a low level ability rather than invent that turn and any future turns they want a kill to go through.

Wrong. What other night actions will be useful then? Please do tell.

So say you start with BP, go to Nightkill Immune, and eventually end with Vig as many have expressed interest in. What then? Play Texas Justice?

Doesn't add up. A lot of the roles will then be of no use. Checking for self protection, and a kill? Well darn, EVERYONE has one. What good does this do?

I think you're stuck in your idealistic view of how this game can be broken.

[Pomegranate]

We shouldn't all go for vig. Different PRs are important too, but BP can really hinder scum. Get it, then go for something useful.

[zoraster]

If they spent an invent on boost, then use boost (an active ability) while we merely get bulletproof (a passive ability that is automatically used) then we come out ahead by a turn because they're forced to use a low level ability rather than invent that turn and any future turns they want a kill to go through.

Wrong. What other night actions will be useful then? Please do tell.

So say you start with BP, go to Nightkill Immune, and eventually end with Vig as many have expressed interest in. What then? Play Texas Justice?

Doesn't add up. A lot of the roles will then be of no use. Checking for self protection, and a kill? Well darn, EVERYONE has one. What good does this do?

I think you're stuck in your idealistic view of how this game can be broken.

Are you deliberately or merely accidentally misconstruing what I'm saying?

All I said was that everyone should get either BP OR Nightkill immunity in time for the mafia's first kill on night 2. That in NO WAY says that I think we should all go for the same tech tree.

For many if not most, it probably means grabbing BP and then getting whatever else they want, using BP as a little side excursion not in their own tree. For others, BP will be a natural stop along the vengeful, tracker, rolecop/revive track. Others might instead opt to go blink instead of BP and get NK Immunity (this is the path a potential doctor should take).

[Percy]

Hi guys, been having a rough time of it lately, I will post in the next day or so. Sorry all.

[Chaco]

If they spent an invent on boost, then use boost (an active ability) while we merely get bulletproof (a passive ability that is automatically used) then we come out ahead by a turn because they're forced to use a low level ability rather than invent that turn and any future turns they want a kill to go through.

Wrong. What other night actions will be useful then? Please do tell.

So say you start with BP, go to Nightkill Immune, and eventually end with Vig as many have expressed interest in. What then? Play Texas Justice?

Doesn't add up. A lot of the roles will then be of no use. Checking for self protection, and a kill? Well darn, EVERYONE has one. What good does this do?

I think you're stuck in your idealistic view of how this game can be broken.

Are you deliberately or merely accidentally misconstruing what I'm saying?

All I said was that everyone should get either BP OR Nightkill immunity in time for the mafia's first kill on night 2. That in NO WAY says that I think we should all go for the same tech tree.

For many if not most, it probably means grabbing BP and then getting whatever else they want, using BP as a little side excursion not in their own tree. For others, BP will be a natural stop along the vengeful, tracker, rolecop/revive track. Others might instead opt to go blink instead of BP and get NK Immunity (this is the path a potential doctor should take).

What use would a doctor be if you are NK immune, or bulletproof? All can be roleblocked and Boost surpasses all. Even more so global roleblock blocks all active abilities, passive, etc and they can still use a factional ability. It says so in the OP. What good does all that do then? One person, after they get to global roleblock, can use it each day/night and use a factional kill thus nullifying the use.

I'm not arguing it's a good stepping stone...where as I'm arguing the practicality from a projected stand point.

I did misunderstand, and nice use of word, but I still do not completely agree. I may be understanding how the game works as well, but I don't think I am entirely. I'll reread though...

[zoraster]

If they spent an invent on boost, then use boost (an active ability) while we merely get bulletproof (a passive ability that is automatically used) then we come out ahead by a turn because they're forced to use a low level ability rather than invent that turn and any future turns they want a kill to go through.

Wrong. What other night actions will be useful then? Please do tell.

So say you start with BP, go to Nightkill Immune, and eventually end with Vig as many have expressed interest in. What then? Play Texas Justice?

Doesn't add up. A lot of the roles will then be of no use. Checking for self protection, and a kill? Well darn, EVERYONE has one. What good does this do?

I think you're stuck in your idealistic view of how this game can be broken.

Are you deliberately or merely accidentally misconstruing what I'm saying?

All I said was that everyone should get either BP OR Nightkill immunity in time for the mafia's first kill on night 2. That in NO WAY says that I think we should all go for the same tech tree.

For many if not most, it probably means grabbing BP and then getting whatever else they want, using BP as a little side excursion not in their own tree. For others, BP will be a natural stop along the vengeful, tracker, rolecop/revive track. Others might instead opt to go blink instead of BP and get NK Immunity (this is the path a potential doctor should take).

What use would a doctor be if you are NK immune, or bulletproof? All can be roleblocked and Boost surpasses all. Even more so global roleblock blocks all active abilities, passive, etc and they can still use a factional ability. It says so in the OP. What good does all that do then? One person, after they get to global roleblock, can use it each day/night and use a factional kill thus nullifying the use.

I'm not arguing it's a good stepping stone...where as I'm arguing the practicality from a projected stand point.

I did misunderstand, and nice use of word, but I still do not completely agree. I may be understanding how the game works as well, but I don't think I am entirely. I'll reread though...

Yeah, I'm not sure why you'd want to be a doctor at all in this game. By the by, I'm taking a look at it now... is it possible that BP is actually BETTER than NK Immune? NK Immune can be roleblocked whereas BP can't, it seems. The only benefit to NK Immune is that it's a second shot you can take after BP has been taken off.

But anyway, my point still stands: this is a good idea to do as a town on the whole. I don't care what people do after they take BP so long as they go for it.

[Chaco]

No, BP is still worse. I'm positive that BP can be blocked...but to make sure:

Tar: Can BP be roleblocked?

Triggered =/= activated ability, so no. - Tar

I'm pretty positive he labeled Night Kill Immune as blockable just because it isn't a normal mechanic, where as BP can be blocked so he needn't label it.

You'll stand by your point and I'll stand by mine.

Also, why did you mention potential doctors if you later discard them as useless?

[Chaco]

Also, Zoraster, I'd like you to closely check out the Thirds Post and tell me if you realize this game has a system of checks and balances.

[UncertainKitten]

Also, Zoraster, I'd like you to closely check out the Thirds Post and tell me if you realize this game has a system of checks and balances.

May I expand on this?

The Tech Tree is a distraction, quite honestly. And if we continue discussion it for much longer, we will be assisting scum more than helping town. I'd advise us to start considering buckling down and scumhunting. I really don't give five damns what power ANYONE has. Honestly, you probably shouldn't even care what power you have. We effectively are vanilla with benefits, and roles will NOT win this game.

I understand the set up of the game is going to gain discussion for the first few pages, hell, I even contributed to it, but Chaco is right. It's useless to try to plan anything out based on it. I think the best play at this point is effectively as vanilla. Anyone take issue with this?

[Cobalt]

Yeah, how about we actually hunt scum?

unvote vote chaco

Like this!

[zoraster]

Also, Zoraster, I'd like you to closely check out the Thirds Post and tell me if you realize this game has a system of checks and balances.

Oh, I absolutely agree. I've taken a lot of time going through various scenarios and it's clear that most have been thought through very clearly. But that doesn't mean that certain methods won't give ADVANTAGES if we follow them through. The BP thing isn't perfect... it won't lead us to a win singlehandedly. We'll still need to scum hunt. But it does give us a significant advantage over scum, and it's one we should take.

Just because there's no way to absolutely break the game doesn't mean there's no way to take advantage of the game setup as a whole.

The Tech Tree is a distraction, quite honestly. And if we continue discussion it for much longer, we will be assisting scum more than helping town. I'd advise us to start considering buckling down and scumhunting. I really don't give five damns what power ANYONE has. Honestly, you probably shouldn't even care what power you have. We effectively are vanilla with benefits, and roles will NOT win this game.

I understand the set up of the game is going to gain discussion for the first few pages, hell, I even contributed to it, but Chaco is right. It's useless to try to plan anything out based on it. I think the best play at this point is effectively as vanilla. Anyone take issue with this?

I disagree with this. While I think it's important we get to scum hunting, discussion of the tech tree is absolutely vital to the town's success. Mafia will presumably have at the very least the night and possibly the day to hash out all their possibilities. Leaving town members, people who are probably of varying degrees of commitment to figuring out the tree, to do it on their own is to allow scum to have a significant advantage.

I'm not saying we should all announce what tech we're going for. But I think it's irresponsible not to discuss the implications of varying strategies. I haven't fully thought through everything, but even with the vote and recruit advantages scum has, I think the tree, properly used, serves to seriously help the town. The town should, in fact, win this game if we use the tech tree optimally.

Furthermore, to not discuss it allows scum to come through with a breaking strategy of their own that may well have a town counter -- if only we discuss it beforehand. I won't elaborate at this point, but I see a couple of ways this can come up and I'm sure there are others.

So no. I don't think the tree is just a disadvantage. To treat this game as merely another is to seriously underestimate the power of these roles.

But again, I agree with one thing: we still need to lynch scum. That, as always, is the key to this game.

[MafiaSSK]

Yeah, how about we actually hunt scum?

unvote vote chaco

Like this!

...what? One how is Chaco scum? Please state this in your way. Two, why not give a reason? Three, why jump on what seems to be a nonsensical bandwagon with no real reason? For these reasons I

vote Cobalt

[Cobalt]

Yeah, how about we actually hunt scum?

unvote vote chaco

Like this!

...what? One how is Chaco scum? Please state this in your way. Two, why not give a reason? Three, why jump on what seems to be a nonsensical bandwagon with no real reason? For these reasons I

vote Cobalt

funny how all three of these are the same thing.

[MafiaSSK]

Yeah, how about we actually hunt scum?

unvote vote chaco

Like this!

...what? One how is Chaco scum? Please state this in your way. Two, why not give a reason? Three, why jump on what seems to be a nonsensical bandwagon with no real reason? For these reasons I

vote Cobalt

funny how all three of these are the same thing.

Two and three are, one isn't. Regardless, answer it.

[Cobalt]

All three of those essentially ask why I voted.
It's because chaco's setup spec is quite bad. There was no obvious reason for town to take something besides BP last night, and there's no indication it's a bad strategy. So what if docs become useless and the mafia has to use boost? Even making the mafia's NKs that much harder to pull off is a good effect.

[MafiaSSK]

All three of those essentially ask why I voted.
It's because chaco's setup spec is quite bad. There was no obvious reason for town to take something besides BP last night, and there's no indication it's a bad strategy. So what if docs become useless and the mafia has to use boost? Even making the mafia's NKs that much harder to pull off is a good effect.

How is telling people why not to setup speculate speculating?

[Cobalt]

All three of those essentially ask why I voted.
It's because chaco's setup spec is quite bad. There was no obvious reason for town to take something besides BP last night, and there's no indication it's a bad strategy. So what if docs become useless and the mafia has to use boost? Even making the mafia's NKs that much harder to pull off is a good effect.

How is telling people why not to setup speculate speculating?

What does that have to do with what I said?

[MafiaSSK]

All three of those essentially ask why I voted.

It's because chaco's setup spec is quite bad

. There was no obvious reason for town to take something besides BP last night, and there's no indication it's a bad strategy. So what if docs become useless and the mafia has to use boost? Even making the mafia's NKs that much harder to pull off is a good effect.

How is telling people why not to setup speculate speculating?

What does that have to do with what I said?

Bolded.

[Cobalt]

Um, what? Are you saying he wasn't speculating?

[zoraster]

for what it's worth, it's not really setup speculation to talk about known elements of the game. It's speculation to suggest we might have a 9-3 or a 8-2-2 or a 8-3-1 or whatever; it's not to say that BP is helpful to town.

This isn't a game you can use tired mafiascum cliches (such as "don't setup speculate") without a reason besides common wisdom that's developed from normal and normal-like theme games.

[Cobalt]

It's not _just_ setup speculation. He opposes a clearly protown plan. Unless you want tech victory or something, BP was one of the best choices for last night, because it was basically a free invent ability. Anyone who picked BP gets another ability free tonight, because they can't be NK'd.

[Chaco]

All three of those essentially ask why I voted.
It's because chaco's setup spec is quite bad. There was no obvious reason for town to take something besides BP last night, and there's no indication it's a bad strategy. So what if docs become useless and the mafia has to use boost? Even making the mafia's NKs that much harder to pull off is a good effect.

You obviously don't understand. After N2 BP will be inevitable bypassed if they notice what I have. But it's apparent that none of you have, so it should be good. Just stop acting like it's so high and mighty when in fact it's just dumb.

Cobalt, you honestly do not know what you are talking about.

[Chaco]

Also, Zoraster is right, you do need to start thinking outside of your town vantage point and think what scum will be taking. It helps wonders, and it's what led me to show that the BP is utter rubbish.

[Pomegranate]

Also, Zoraster is right, you do need to start thinking outside of your town vantage point and think what scum will be taking. It helps wonders, and it's what led me to show that the BP is utter rubbish.

Thinking what you would do as scum is good. Think of every angle, and how you would look at it as scum.

BP is helpful to the town, and we've established that. I agree with UK that now we've had enough speculation, and what we need to do now is scumhunt.

[Sajin]

It's not _just_ setup speculation. He opposes a clearly protown plan. Unless you want tech victory or something, BP was one of the best choices for last night, because it was basically a free invent ability. Anyone who picked BP gets another ability free tonight, because they can't be NK'd.

How exactly was it free?

If we lack informational roles and we fight 3 scum who rush recruit and each recruit 3 players, did it buy a day? No.

Every strategy has a counter strategy. The trick will be to figure out what strategy the scum are pursuing so that we as a whole can counter it in some fashion. This is not a normal game and treating it as such will not be good. We need to be proactive.


Btw, I think someone should get rig votes. X votes of YOUR DEAD FACTION...will confirm whoever gets it town (lets say 5 town and 1 scum in the grave...if you have 5 votes, your town) as well as counter scum going a multiple vote route. Agreed?