Mini 829 - Internal Struggle Mafia (Over)

[Paradoxombie]

vote:DTMaster

For commenting to dank but voting someone else.

[Paradoxombie]

unvote, vote:Idiot King

for having a "real" vote.

[Paradoxombie]

FOS:

Hiphop and Idiot King. I don't like the way they each unvoted immediately when their votes were called into question, and how they didn't put any other votes down in place of them.

[Paradoxombie]

Bye bye RVS. You died in record time.

Actually when looking at Idiot King's post:

Holy bandwagon, Batman!

unvote

What's with the rapid dogpile on jason?

I'm confused. Normally you would unvote when you see a bandwagon forming if you were part of that bandwagon. You voted for danks first though not jason.

@ idiotking it is almost like you don't want to be voting for someone else, if the bandwagon ends in lynch. This looks scummy to me.

You were also quick to unvote. And you didn't give any explanation either. You say you want to give him a chance to answer, but I don't think that makes sense when you were already voting him for something else altogether.

[Paradoxombie]

Another mistake on my part, I guess, about you voting.

Making mistakes-not a scum tell. Being paranoid about who finds you suspicious-is a scum tell (IMO at least). Unfortunately it can also be a VI tell. One more mistake like this one and I'm more than willing to revote you.

I don't think he's being paranoid. I would expect any player to be somewhat overwhelmed. Jason may not have voted, but he has been solely interrogating hiphop, to a greater degree even than some players who have voted(Toro).

[Paradoxombie]

Alot has happened since my last post.

A few suspects:(in no order)

Red Coyote- I'm not a fan of lurking or massive posts, but I don't suspect him for that yet. His vote on dank was pointlessly cryptic when first made, and if he had read enough to make the vote, why couldn't he provide any content to back it up? Confusing, but the ideas he presents afterward are more sound.

Zach-His random vote was too non-random for my taste, and he calls one vote on him for it an overreaction. Willing to apply preassure but not take it. But I like his vote on hiphop. Makes a better argument than those before him, I think.

Ryan-Didn't put down a real vote in his only post, despite being 3 pages into the game and despite lots of content. Especially troubleing if we're gonna have to wait 3 more pages for his next post

Hiphop- The case on him seemed a bit overblown but it's died down a little I hope. He made some simple mistakes, but the best case I see on him are his last few impotent votes. Too careful.

Jason- Seems very critical of Hiphop without placing a vote. Now considers it a misrepresentation that hiphop called him anxious for a lynch. Maybe hiphop is wrong, but to still be riding a random vote is practically worse. Whether he is setting himself up to hammer or sitting on the sidelines, I don't like it.

IdiotKing- Makes a non-random random vote and since has offered nothing else besides explanations for explanations for why he unvoted. His unvote doesn't bother me as much as the pretense of analyzing the jason wagon which never happened.

Now deciding who to vote, im stuck between IdiotKing and Jason, because both have only random votes and seem to be eyeing the hiphop wagon. Idiot King ended up on the defensive, but that almost gives him more of an excuse. Ultimately it's hard to tell much without knowing Hiphops alignment, so I'll vote for someone I consider scummy either way, Toro.

Toro- Pretty slow onto Hiphop wagon and too wishy washy in voting in 61. Then jumps to seeming almost too confident in 63 and 65. I don't like how he refers to the difference between "good" and "bad" moves. That seems alot more like a scum perspective.

FOS

In his last post 88 he fails to understand Red Coyote was talking about danks vote because that was the reason for his own vote on dank. Reading Comprehension may not be a classic scumtell, but I can easily see how scum would skim large posts like Red Coyote's. I think someone reading the whole post can see where Red Coyote was going

unvote, vote:Toro

[Paradoxombie]

Hiphop, could you show me the three theme games you played in?

[Paradoxombie]

Plus typically in the games I've played on other forums, the player who places an OMGUS vote (and this time w/o any reason) is 80% of the time scum.

I'm not liking this argument.

Toro, why would a town player unvote when they have 2 clear suspects?

[Paradoxombie]

I'm really not liking the way toro unvoted after getting a couple of votes. Toro, I didn't vote you for voting, I voted you for having suspicions that did not strike me as genuine. You were wishywashy when you got on the wagon, but after you'd actually voted it seemed nothing could change your mind. When hiphop tries to reason with you, you essentially shrug him off, like you're not even interested in the possibility that he's town. It's quite different from a few posts before, when you weren't even sure whether to vote him. Then when a couple of people vote you, you hastily unvote. You're all over the place.

[Paradoxombie]

What I'm more concerned about right now is two groups of people:
1) people who are trying to force the hiphop issue.
2) people who are trying to not to appear to be hiphop-hunting.

That seems like a very wide net to cast. Who would you put in each group? Jason seems to fit in both I'd say, so I can see why you'd vote him.

[Paradoxombie]

The second group is pretty clear-cut. Most people thus far have given a decent amount of opinion on hiphop. Jason clearly stood out in this group as our biggest fencesitter.

The first group is trickier. Up until recently, hiphop's been giving scum more than enough to use against him. The fact that at times he did look so suspicious makes it very plausible that townies would be picking on the little things he did and not just scum. When I re-read, Jason stood out in this group too as trying to fan the flames and not just trying to scumhunt.

If the second group is so clear cut, can you give more specific names in your opinion?

[Paradoxombie]

Oh, I have been trying to be cautious and be sure with my vote because I thought not being 100% sure on my vote would actually be hurtful and dangerous to the town.

Not as hurtful as no discussion. I ask: what do you think we'd be talking about now if no one had voted? Would you still be suspecting hiphop if he hadn't voted or been voted? Hypothetically, do you think town would have the advantage in a game where people could only cast one vote per day?

[Paradoxombie]

Unfortunately, at this point there's so little actual logic and almost no fact, and as such, it's hard for me to do my job correctly...

@ryan Everything you said on me is the truth how can I defend against it.

Hiphop, yes they are facts, but they are facts that make you scummy, and thus, a good thing to build a case around.

Look at the above two quotes. One person says there is no actual logic, thus no fact. The other says everything is fact.

Interesting dilemma here.

In my opinion, I think we have a fairly large portion of good logic, contrary to what IK thinks.


IK and Hiphop have both responded to the arguments against them. It was obvious who had a legitimate response.

Vote:hiphop

Your cases against IK and Hiphop amount to simply that they unvoted when criticized and haven't done much scumhunting. They both did those things, but hiphop is the one who actually tried to scumhunt even at the cost of more suspicion, while IK has been laying low and on the defensive since RVS. Hiphop admitted that he made mistakes, while IK made a bunch of excuses. Now you vote hiphop who agrees with you and legitimize IK who basically still hasn't left RVS?

And as you pointed out IK is the one who we should have higher expectations for since he's played a game on this site before.


So Im pretty suspicious that you consider hiphop the obvious choice. I'm not saying that voting hiphop is unacceptable, but looking at your arguments and both of their play, picking hiphop without even explaining your logic looks like a slip, because now you're choice seems more based on majority support than the facts. Nothing about IK's response is more legitimate than hiphops. In fact it looks very defensive because it shows much more effort and insight than any of IK's scumhunting. So your whole interest in their responses seems pointless, because I don't think their responses played into your decision at all, they just made it easier to make the vote you already wanted to.

[Paradoxombie]

Your cases against IK and Hiphop amount to simply that they unvoted when criticized and haven't done much scumhunting. They both did those things, but hiphop is the one who actually tried to scumhunt even at the cost of more suspicion, while IK has been laying low and on the defensive since RVS. Hiphop admitted that he made mistakes, while IK made a bunch of excuses. Now you vote hiphop who agrees with you and legitimize IK who basically still hasn't left RVS?

And as you pointed out IK is the one who we should have higher expectations for since he's played a game on this site before.


So Im pretty suspicious that you consider hiphop the obvious choice. I'm not saying that voting hiphop is unacceptable, but looking at your arguments and both of their play, picking hiphop without even explaining your logic looks like a slip, because now you're choice seems more based on majority support than the facts. Nothing about IK's response is more legitimate than hiphops. In fact it looks very defensive because it shows much more effort and insight than any of IK's scumhunting. So your whole interest in their responses seems pointless, because I don't think their responses played into your decision at all, they just made it easier to make the vote you already wanted to.

Your thoughts are misquided, or wrong, on a few accounts.
1.) No, that is not the reason for my vote. In my post for 100, I list, in summary mode, the scumtells/case against each. You will see that hiphops is much more involved and multiplied. Add to that that hiphop is being hypocritical with going after someone for not voting their "most scummy player" when he indeed did the same thing. The majority of the case on IK, however, was his contradictory statements on why he eventually DIDN'T LOOK at the bandwagon.
2.) We must be reading different threads then. IK's posts, in my opinion, have been much more helpful and coherent then hiphop. Thus, hiphop seems like struggling scum. Sure, it would make sense that IK is on the defense, given his situation. If you could give some posts/evidence where hiphop actually scumhunted and how IK has not and has been laying low, that would be fantastic.
3.) Just because hiphop admits his mistakes, doesn't mean it isn't still scummy (you are saying what jason said that I mentioned earlier in this post). Where was IK making excuses? I may have missed that.
4.) How has IK not left RVS? What is hiphop agreeing with me about?
5.) Yes, he does have higher expectations. But the amount of things hiphop has done wrong doubles that of IK. Thus my vote.
6.) If you read my post 100 and subsequent 149, you will see that it was a logical transition. I suspected both, and wanted a response from both. Clearly, one was inadequate, saying he has nothing to argue against (hiphop). Defeatist, and total bs. So no, I DO logically support my vote.
7.) Majority? There was one other vote on hiphop at the time. The bandwagon had fallen apart. There was no majority when I VOTED.

FOS: paradox

8.) A lot of IK's response was more legitimate than hiphops. Hiphop said I can't argue, and I made a mistake. Completely bogus response in the game of mafia, ever.
9.) This sentence from the above quote: "In fact it looks very defensive because it shows much more effort and insight than any of IK's scumhunting" doesn't make sense. I think you may have messed up the pronoun usage. Retry that sentence again because it doesn't make sense as is. Do you mean hiphop's response looks defensive because more more and insight compared to IK's scumhunting? Because again, I don't see it. Maybe I am just missing a post, but hiphop's RESPONSE TO ME was inadequate.
10.) No, my interest in their responses is not pointless. Who was more scummy before they responded, IMO? Hiphop. I wanted to await their responses/defense to then make a decision on my vote. Hiphop allayed no suspicions, thus my vote. Don't see what is so hard to understand about that.

Suspicions
High: Hiphop
Growing to High: Jason
Medium: Toro, IK

I only have time for a quick response now, but I'm less suspicious now that you've explained your reasoning in more detail. I'll try to clarify why I think IK is more suspicious than hiphop when I next post.

[Paradoxombie]

Ryan, to put it simply the main reason I suspect IK more than Hiphop is that Hiphop has been trying to get things done and IK hasn't. Maybe he is fearful scum struggling, but to me it looks more like someone who wants something more out of a game than defend himself the whole time. Im much more suspicious of a player who jumps into their shell when poked, verses hiphop who continued to apply pressure and seek new leads.

The main reason I found your argument suspicious is how you deal with hiphops response. You call it BS and bogus that Hiphop says he can't defend against your arguments. Doesn't that imply that you know your arguments to be flawed or deserving of opposition?

I've seen players say they have no defense before, and I know I've felt that way before. I don't think it's as crazy as you make it sound.

[Paradoxombie]

@RC
Your reasoning for your vote, and such can be argued by OMGUS. Abet it has more ground then if you voted me when I first attacked your "first post", it is still an unfavorable position to be in. What do you have to say to the OMGUS argument?

That's understandable. I've done my best to distinguish my vote insomuch as Ik's vote has no bearing on my vote whatsoever.

I have trouble believing this. Your original post was intended to garner a reaction. A player reacts strongly to it, including a vote on you. I would expect that to have bearing on your vote on him; it seems strange to disregard it.

[Paradoxombie]

3. You've blown the case on RC to ridiculous proportions. Your last post completely cements that. It looks to me like you know you have nothing on RC and you're willing to resort to anything to get him lynched.

I think they've both blown it out of proportion. Quote wars like that are annoying, and nobody gets their point across. It's hard to find either scummy for it because it seem mutually destructive.

[Paradoxombie]

Quote wars like that are annoying

Sorry about my last post, but there was no other way to make that post.

My statement wasn't supposed to be a complaint, it's advice for whoever would like it. I make long posts too. But when it continues for several posts back and forth, then it makes the arguments inaccessible to people not already participating, because people start making points about points about responses, and we get so caught up in clarifying ourselves that soon no one can see the forest through the trees. We end up arguing about the argument.

I just think it's neither the best way to make a case, nor scumhunt. I make points because they're useful, not just because they're there to be made.

[Paradoxombie]

I liked IK's original line of questioning, but I feel his attempts to add pressure were misguided because he failed to convince anyone, including RC, that RC looked scummy.

At this point his arguments against RC seem like more a defense of his own views than pressuring.

[Paradoxombie]

hat indicates this to you, specifically?

You're attempting to refute everything he says, when most of it doesn't deserve to be refuted. Indicative of someone who refuses to have his opinion changed. This would make sense if you're scum, since you would want to do everything possible to portray him as scum.

I have given plenty of opportunities to check my meta. I'm perfectly willing to give more. This is how I have always done things, and how I will always do things. I am not attempting to refute everything he says, I'm attempting to ADDRESS everything he says. Why? Because that's how I do things. In this sense, it would also make sense if I'm town, because I want to pressure him with REAL pressure, not the fabrication that pressure votes are.

Well I have to ask you: Does this feel so unreal?

unvote, vote: IdiotKing

[Paradoxombie]

I think you're wrong about RC whether you're town or scum. Even if he is scum you have the wrong reasons to suspect him and when it's a mislynch him and DRK would look cleaner than the 5 people on the wagon after them.

Also, martyrdom is bittersweet.

[Paradoxombie]

Okay everybody, I know you are tired of this IK/RC situation but please read this post at least. I no longer wish to vote IK

unvote

and I never suspected RC much, and I think I have a good grasp of things. Please be illuminated:

Again, defensive, since you[RC] questioned my intentions when I tried pushing the case farther than anyone else had (that's what pressure is

for

, to see your reactions to stiff resistance/argumentation).

I don't see RC as getting defensive, I see YOU as getting defensive when RC pressured YOU by questioning your intentions. RC is the opposite of defensive, he's been very aggressively going after YOU. Your 275 is clear evidence that you are the one being pressured:

THAT WAS TO HIPHOP, NOT TORO. NOBODY ELSE HAS MADE THIS 'MISTAKE', AND EVERYONE ELSE UNDERSTOOD WHO I WAS TALKING TO.

Shortly thereafter you[RC] vote for me in a manner which I still consider OMGUS

RC comes in and makes a vote looking for reactions. YOU react strongly to it, including a vote. Then he votes you. To me he explained his vote in advance, before he even knew who it'd be.

When a fish bites a lure, the fisherman reacts by pulling it in. Not because he's afraid the fish will hurt him.

Either it's a serious scum gambit, or, what's really causing me stress, a prideful townie move.

Prideful, or earnest?

Stubborn.


My problem isn't so much that I don't like your case but that it's a case built on a weak foundation. And that seems to be what RC was looking for. It makes sense to be suspicious of RC for his original post, he know's that. When DTM voted him for it, RC poked back. They have one or two big quote posts and DTM soon drops it in favor of better suspects. RC likewise gave you a chance to explore your suspicion within reason, but you only continued to escalate a case built on a very weak premise, that RC was lying about his gambit. Nothing I see suggests that, and his pushing a case on you furthers my belief that he is authentically scumhunting through that original gambit.

[Paradoxombie]

@To myself Outloud.
My original question to Jason is drowning with the recent charges of IK. As the IK debate goes on it makes me wonder if everyone is tunneling too strongly. Scum can easily slip in the debate and bandwagon onto IK (or bus IK for scummy validity), I should look into the vote count reasoning for everyone's votes. This gets harder to debate with others with the recent inactive calls.

Indeed. In my last vote, I was choosing between voting IK and Jason, but IK is active and Jason is barely here. This does not mean I've forgotten Jason.

vote: JasonT1981

for the thing I originally suspect IK for, fencesitting, specifically in going after hiphop without voting him.

Misc. Comments:

Showing that someone's argument makes no sense is part of defending someone. Poking holes in the accuser's arguments is a very simple, universal way to defend yourself or another player. Do you honestly think it isn't?

Or it could be clarifying the situation so as to not let misconception/misrepresention wrongly influence others. Even if I were to push for a given person's lynch, I wouldn't want to allow for incorrect information to cloud someone's cognizance.

Yes, but it still could be defending, and is worth looking at if the defended turns up scum.

[Paradoxombie]

I still think we need more opinions on the IK/RC situation, but I'd be happy with a Jason lynch if others don't want an IK lynch.

It seems a bit premature to be negotiating. There's no deadline, so why are you trying to hammer out a compromise?

[Paradoxombie]

unvote

To be clear, my vote on you, jason, had nothing to do with your absence. But I think in that post you made a lot of good points and developed your opinion satisfactorily. I agree that Zach has been fairly inactive since the hiphop wagon as well.

vote: Zachrulez

[Paradoxombie]

It seems a bit premature to be negotiating. There's no deadline, so why are you trying to hammer out a compromise?

I'm not really trying to compromise. My vote right now is on IK. It will stay there until I no longer think he's scummy or the town decides to lynch someone else I find scummy. Remember that Jason was my #2 lynch candidate. I would be very happy with a Jason lynch. I would be happier with an IK lynch, but the town seems to be splitting on the IK issue. If I know there won't be enough support for an IK lynch, I'd be more than willing to back a Jason lynch and that's what I was saying. If you replace "Jason" with any other player in the game, I wouldn't feel the same way.

I do think Jason's post was good enough to take some heat off of him, though I still think we need to keep a close eye on him.

@Paradox
You do know Zach is gone until the 14th, right?

It just seemed odd. If it was me I would've said something more along the lines of "I still suspect jason too". It's not really a big enough point to be worth arguing further though.

Yeah I know Zach get's back from vacation tomorrow. But I'd rather have my vote on an absent person than no one, and my only other real suspect is also away.

[Paradoxombie]

Odd...quotes from two of Zach's posts:

Will be V/LA August 10-14

I will be leaving for my trip later today, and will be back on Wednesday.

Anyone want to roll a die?

He said he's back on wednesday but may not be around to post for a couple more days.

[Paradoxombie]

My problem isn't so much that I don't like your case but that it's a case built on a weak foundation. And that seems to be what RC was looking for. It makes sense to be suspicious of RC for his original post, he know's that. When DTM voted him for it, RC poked back. They have one or two big quote posts and DTM soon drops it in favor of better suspects. RC likewise gave you a chance to explore your suspicion within reason, but you only continued to escalate a case built on a very weak premise, that RC was lying about his gambit. Nothing I see suggests that, and his pushing a case on you furthers my belief that he is authentically scumhunting through that original gambit.

This seems pretty accurate to me. I still don't necessarily agree with your conclusion, that we should jump on jason, because I'm not convinced that Ik is a prideful (stubborn) townie. I still lean more scum than anything with Ik, but unlike Ik, I'm completely open to the possibility that my suspicions are going in the wrong direction.

You've got me wrong here, but I can see why you'd think this. I still suspect IK, but I don't see much point in voting him more. I have a large sample of his play and want to explore other suspects to compare and make the best final choice. If there was a deadline now I'd vote IK.

Also, I've already unvoted Jason. And even when I was voting him I didn't think we should pile on him. I just wanted to pressure him to give us more of his perspective.

[Paradoxombie]

I don't really care if the mod is disappointed. I don't think more posting from me, DRK, DTM, IK, or RC will help the town at all. I know how I feel about all those players, but the other half of the town is like a blur. In some cases that may be the result of our overzealous posting.

I'm not really motivated to prevent a deadline right now, because I think seeing all those players scramble onto bandwagons would give a lot more info than the last few pages of high activity arguing with IK. If the people who have been posting actively up til now give their scumlists it'll only make it easier for quieter players to shadow them.

Basically, I disagree with your strategy DRK.


Hiphop, your scumnet seems cast almost too wide. But I must admit I feel weird narrowing my suspects down based on the info we have. It may be 14 pages but I feel like I have almost nothing because so much of that is the same players. But this may just be experience talking, as I often feel like day one is practically a shot in the dark.

[Paradoxombie]

unvote, vote: Toro

consider this an extension of my previous vote on you.

[Paradoxombie]

The main reason I found your argument suspicious is how you deal with hiphops response. You call it BS and bogus that Hiphop says he can't defend against your arguments. Doesn't that imply that you know your arguments to be flawed or deserving of opposition?

Paragraph 2: No, it's not implying my arguments are flawed. This game is about attack and defense, and conceding to not defend yourself is a defeat, which seems pointless as both scum and town, and is anti=town, as then we have no measure to gauge his response.

It'd be alright if you were just saying he may be avoiding a response or that his actions were suspicious without an explanation, but you seem to be framing it very differently. What I see you saying here that he is obliged as a town player to defend himself to the best of his abilities. That sounds more like an attorney than a townie.

Your argument against hiphop was just stating his actions and saying they're scummy. What were you expecting in response? A theory discussion with a new player? Did you want him to endlessly defend his mistakes or something?

[Paradoxombie]

An analysis of hiphop:

post # in isolation

3 -

@everyone. FYI there are more than one scum in the game, so keep looking. At least I am staying active.

Point 4 - We are all aware there would be more than one scum... maybe a diversion tatic from you to get others to look elsewhere away yourself?

I'm with #24 here, this certainly sounds real fishy to me. In a game of this size there'd have to be at least

2-3

scum members.

Unvote

Hiphop specifically asks people to look elsewhere for scum. I hardly consider asking people to divert their attention a "diversionary tactic" so I think Jason is stretching it here, perhaps for the sake of pressure. But Toro takes it to a new level calling it "fishy". This is toro's first comment on hiphop, and I think there are better points against hiphop at that point, so I don't see why this minor point is the one Toro mentions.

4 -

I'm considering on putting a vote on hiphop, but his lack of experience sort of is making me feel sympathetic and going against it. But you know what, after rereading his posts, I'm definitely not getting a real townly feeling from him, so...

Vote: hiphop

Defensive about voting hiphop. This posts concentrates more on toro's uncertainty than any reason for a vote.

5-

Making slipups? That's your style?

references slipups vaguely. Further applies pressure without really making an argument.

6 -

the first unvoting was inexperience.

Y'know, by your third game I think you'd start to know what's a good move and what's a bad move.

I don't believe in good and bad moves, and I don't like that toro still hasn't given a reason why it was a "bad move" and I don't like an argument beased entirely on the suggestion that Hiphops poor play is somehow scum motivated.

11 -

Okay, my current list of possible scumminess...(from highest possible threat to lowest)

----------------------------------------------

1

-

hiphop

Why? Playing the newb card after three games is just downright stupid, I belive he's just using it as a coverup for the slipups he made earlier. Plus typically in the games I've played on other forums, the player who places an OMGUS vote (and this time w/o any reason) is 80% of the time scum.

2

-

RedCoyote

Why? After reading back a little bit, I read back on the part where DTM (P84) points out that RC started getting a bit defensive over being put at L-6. Which makes me concerned he's hiding something.

-------------------------------------------------------------

These two are the only two that concern me atm.

And since I guess it's now wrong to vote for those who you believe are scum now. I'll do this.

Unvote

.

After being asked for prime suspects, toro gives relatively weak arguments, the best ones just rehashes of old ones. Then he unvotes, apparently in response to Hiphops unvote of his Number one suspect. There's no clear reason to do this, and toro strangely never revotes.

Okay to be honest guys, I'm not the world's greatest scumhunter. Although, sometimes I'll pick up on stuff real easily, so far this game I've got nothing except what you've guys got. Don't cast me off as useless however, as I still am a member of the town.

I'm not liking this argument.

Toro, why would a town player unvote when they have 2 clear suspects?

Because like I quoted, according to you people it's wrong to vote for the guy who you believe is scum, if you have no original reason to. Do I have to post something original about a player I find suspicious in order to vote for them?

He basically plays the newbie card, except perhaps worse by simply saying he is not good at scumhunting. Then he says he unvoted because he thinks he isn't supposed to be voting without unique reasons. I don't understand if he's mocking the idea or truly pondering it. Either way I don't like it especially if he's just catering to people whose alignment he couldn't know as town. I feel this is a change in his behavior from before he was first raised as a suspect.

121 -

And what's wrong with my OMGUS argument?

Inexperienced cornered townies also have a tendency to cast OMGUS votes, especially when the pressure starts to dissipate. He did give a reason, although I'm not particularly happy it came after his vote.

/nod.

Who said it's wrong to vote for who you believe is scum? Where do they say that?

Pretty much all the talk about me just jumping on the hiphop bandwagon, the reasons were there for my vote, they just weren't mine.

Seems too accepting of advice that goes directly against his preconceived notion of OMGUS being done by scum 80% of the time. It seems he really did unvote out of fear that it was "wrong" to vote. Looks suspicious to me.


From here I think Toro has been far more defensive. He still hasn't revoted, and he says his suspicion of hiphop has been reduced. Has really been playing it safe since the votes on him. Because of this, most of this case is in reference to his earlier play.

[Paradoxombie]

My last post was clearly an analysis of Toro, not hiphop as I labeled it mistakenly.

@Drk I can claim as a PR too, does that mean I am one.

The fact of the matter is, there are only two different players who would reasonably claim PR, scum or the actual PR itself. Take that as you will.

I agree, but the keyword is "reasonably". I don't think don's play is reasonable as scum or PR or townie. This plus don's modkill request make me wanna agree with an IGMEOY:don.



For now I think IK is town, because his play makes more sense for a frustrated town than scum. The fact that his roleclaim occurred when he had only 2 votes on him makes him seem overly sensitive. Scum should be paying more attention to votes than mere suspicions.

I agree he seems more suicidal than logical, and his arguments about information gained seem like justification. If I was in his position, I'd want to be killed just because it'd be convenient for me. I'll admit I seriously want to vote him out of disgust, but i really don't see him as scum at the moment.

Right now I could support a lynch on toro, or jason.

Jason for post 500 which looks very hasty and opportunistic.

FOS

The whole time jason is saying that IK is purposely being sacrificial to avoid a lynch. And yet IK was never wavering in his opinion even as it became clear it was only increasing votes on him. Why would scum attempt a gambit like that when they only had two votes?


I also have to agree with IK that RC's unvote was pretty sudden and unexpected after he rode that vote for so long.

I still think Toro should be our guy for today mainly because he has been clearly opportunistic on 2 different wagons and very pandering to the town the whole time. The way an agreeing vote was all it took to make him put down his vote makes him look all the more opportunistic.

I really think it'd be stupid for us all to lynch the suicidal guy. I know it's a little maddening but seriously? We have so many better suspects. Really scum wouldn't put in the amount of effort IK has into self-destruction. Scum are trying to float under the radar now, not asking for a lynch! There are situations where scum are wise to appear accepting of death, but IK is begging for it. If he was really scum he must much worse than I think because this whole bandwagon was so avoidable.

[Paradoxombie]

I sense a catch-22 in the IK situation. The more votes he has, the more he looks town because he seems so willing to die. The fewer votes he has, the more plausible it is that he's trying to make us unvote him with his recent display of suicidal tendencies. I'll do a re-read to better gauge the situation.

But why would he begin this tactic when he had only 2 votes on him? I think there are other factors that suggest that IK is wants to die just because it would be easier than continuing in the face of adversity. No matter what his justifications, to me he is trying to die just so he can win the argument, which is childish and shortsighted. This fits to me because it's the same way he's been arguing the whole time, at the cost of great suspicion. The idea that he purposely got himself bandwagoned again to

reduce

suspicion seems a bit above the head of a new player.

[Paradoxombie]

Ik you should be reasonable. It's one thing to be willing to die when you get the votes. But it's another to basically ask for votes. If you care at all about the game you should at least vote toro and give us a shot at scum.

If you are town and you kill yourself, it will only make it clear what a poor player you really are. That you really think you would help the town more dead than alive. How ludicrous! Only a really sick player would cause their own mislynch like that. It's not dignified at all. You are just giving up when players are never really beyond redemption.



I see you made another post as I wrote this. To answer your question I do not think we will gain enough information that it is worth sacrificing our primary means of eliminating scum. A lynch that could randomly hit scum is probably more valuable than one that definitely won't. Tomorrow we are more likely to go after suspects we already have than suddenly rearrange all our scumlists. Your death will make for maybe 1 new point on a case against certain players, but you know it that will be on many town too. Your death doesn't prove that RC and DRK were tunneling or that Zach or toro were opportunistic, those things are already clear points against them that we gained because you were alive, not dead. Townies provide the town with more info by scumhunting or being suspected than by dying

[Paradoxombie]

I'm doing what I think is right and there's not a damn thing you can say to convince me otherwise.

Well you may wish to consider the possibility that you are wrong sometime. Because it's definitely unwise to pretend you are always right. I'm assuming that's what your doing if you are not gonna be open to opinions.

I'm not being hostile, I'm just playing the game. I believe you're town and I'm actually trying prevent your lynch and you still call me hostile. If you're that bothered by me then I can see why you were freaking out from those 2 votes. Also why you went so hard after RC after he voted you.

[Paradoxombie]

If you think youre a decent player you should try to survive. I'd rather have you as a remaining townie than someone like who barely posts like Toro or acts erratically like Don. Seriously I can understand your actions if you think you aren't valuable to the town, but you are. All the info you have talked about getting is already there because you are a pretty active player. We get much much more info from you alive and active than in death. Because once the active players begin getting mislynched and NKed things start really going downhill. The info from your alignment is nothing compared to the value of an active player. As you even said, even when you are being bandwagoned and suspected it is helping the town. Even considering that are you going to say you are more valuable dead?

[Paradoxombie]

BTW IK

New to the forum? Yes. New to mafia? No.

I played several games on another site before I joined this one. Things are completely different here than pretty much anywhere else. You could be a pro on another site and a newb on here. Which is why I'm willing to give Toro a little slack. The reason I don't want to give Hiphop any is because he's

been

on this site and is still acting this way.

It was my impression that this was Hiphops first game on this site as well. He only mentioned three games on another site to my memory. Hiphop, care to clarify? Toro, how many games have you played bfore?

I agree that Hiphop has been opportunistic at times but his unvote of you at L-1 doesn't fit. I think Toro is far more suspicious one because of both his jumps onto hip hop and you came at very opportune moments, and his unvote of hiphop was when he came under pressure. I mean just looking at his vote on you, how can that not be called opportune? Also he claims that he normally notices more but now all he can see are popular wagons? I'll agree that Toro's play looks like a newer player, but not particularly new town.

IK, do you think if Toro continued to play this way all game you wouldn't suspect him?

[Paradoxombie]

yes, that's what i mean. thanks. i read the initial statement as oppurtunistic(anyone but me) behavior, but you are clarifying that this is not so.

i think you are most likely town, but i still think you are a good day 1 lynch. i'll move to jason, but i would rather be sure about you first so as to help qualify my suspicions of everyone now involved. anyone have a better idea?

So have you read the game yet or are you trying to get a lynch that will make it easier for you?

[Paradoxombie]

not sure what the second part there means, but no. i have not read the entire game, nor do i plan to. if i get the chance, i will, but at this point i think I have plenty to go on and it is time consuming enough to stay current.

please explain further what you mean by getting a lynch that makes it easier for me. is the implication that i am scum looking for an easy lynch? or is the implication that i am scum looking for the lynch that will make the game easier for me? or is the implication that i am town and looking for the quickest lynch so that i can read up during night phase? or is it something else?

Your behavior reminded me of another player who was anxious to read the game but wanted a lynch first to make the rereading more illuminating. That would've explained your interest in gaining info as well, but I will go into more detail below....

i would move to jason as well, but if he flips town then the quandary surrounding ik's alignment would still stand. i think the ik lynch is necessary to confirm our current suspicions. but i'm not going to swim against the current with deadline looming.

just because i think someone is town doesn't mean its odd for me to want them lynched. someone needs to be lynched and if we do it for information its better on day 1 than in lylo. so yeah, ik should be lynched because most of our suspicions of others are based around their actions regarding his bandwagon. how can we qualify those suspicions without having 100% proof of his alignment. he claimed vanilla, we should follow through. i'm not going to tunnel this, but we need his flip. if he flips scum and i am wrong then its a good thing and i am not so egotistical as to think i am always right. he didn't get so many votes on him by accident.

Major FOS Don

First of all there will always be the quandary of not knowing someone's alignment. You haven't even read the majority of IK's behavior in this game and you are pretending you'll never know what to think of him. You have only seen a small bit of his behavior and yet you feel he will forever be an enigma. You talk about how much info we can get from each death but you act as if IK will never appear town to you.

I don't mind you not reading the game but to act this info greedy doesn't make sense. You say Jason's death won't clarify IK but how can you know that? What about their interaction throughout the game you haven't read?

You act as if IK's lynch is the only one that can illuminate us, when any lynch will have just as many votes. You say he's probably town. If you think he's town you can make all those qualifications you wanted. When it comes to linking people, you are best doing it with the pretense that anyone could be scum. Is it really such a challenge to look at the same wagon as if it was on town or scum? It's just a few pages of activity to you.

[Paradoxombie]

I agree that Hiphop has been opportunistic at times but his unvote of you at L-1 doesn't fit.

In a sense it does. The bandwagon's faltering, and now it would look rather unfashionable for him, especially when I flipped town. It's opportunism in the other direction. Basically the same thing I think about RC's unvote, but I'd rather not draw any more conclusions about his until he explains.

You can't have it both ways though. Was he getting off because the lynch was going to go through? or wasn't? Even if it was opportunistic to unvote, it must be more suspicious to stay on if you think scum would avoid it. Do you think newb scum would stay on or get off your wagon? Let us note that 2 votes were just added before hiphop unvoted so i doubt he saw it as a faltering wagon.

[Paradoxombie]

More gut talk? You are starting to sound like Hiphop?

The thing about gut is that gut feelings are basically baseless unless you can connect the reasoning that is triggering your gut feeling in the first place.

Jason makes a point on you, you ARE vote hopping. In fact, you seem like you're really trying to gauge who the town thinks looks worse between IK and Jason and then vote accordingly, rather than going by your own reasoning.

I had a look at IK wagon, and noticed that you had unvoted Talbot right as support for the IK wagon started building up. It wasn't until the support for the wagon started deflating and scrutiny on Talbot started building again over how scummy his vote looked that you were once again willing to vote for him.

I'm also finding it interesting the way you seem to be looking to worm your suspicion away from IK as more and more of the town seems to come to a consensus that he is town based largely on gut and little else for reasoning. What I'm seeing is not strength in conviction, but vote hopping in an attempt to park your vote in a safe place.

Your suspicions do not strike me as genuine.

Unvote: Vote: DRK

I really don't like IK at all, I don't understand why people think he's town. I've heard points made about how his play makes no sense from a scum perspective, but it doesn't make any sense from a town perspective either. His play doesn't make any sense at all, except for the fact that it's scummy. I can only conclude that IK is likely town because it seems like so many people are actually bothered by his play. (But not actually suspicious of him) I am getting the general feeling that it's actually scum running away from his lynch and not town, being afraid to be tied to his lynch later in the game. I have my eye on everyone who came up with a BS excuse to leave that wagon.

You don't claim when you're not under threat of lynch, and you certainly don't ask to be lynched. IK should die simply for the latter, but it seems like we have a growing number of people who are unwilling.

Hiphop actually alleviates my suspicions with his vote of Talbot. I just got a genuine pro-town vibe from his vote change. (Where as DRK's looked far more opportunistic.)

I'm having a bit of a change of heart on Toro. Now he's not only not scumhunting, but is quite happy to vote IK right after I do. (Notice he scrutinizes IK but doesn't seem to find it worthy of a vote until he sees my post.)

I'm pretty much willing to lynch any of DRK, IK, Toro, Talbot at deadline, with DRK and Toro being the top 2, and Talbot and IK being toward the bottom of my preference.

I agree with you that we should look for people with BS reasons to drop IK and I think you have the worst. Your case on DRK is seems weak when he openly admits that he is hopping to the more popular wagon and considering that they are both ones he already preferred. Your sudden interest in toro and disinterest in IK is just as opportunistic as your original vote on IK. Overall I think you look worst from IK Wagon II.

unvote, vote:ZachRulez

[Paradoxombie]

@RC
I'm writing a hypothetical situation. Would you rather I stated in more absolute terms? That is borderline soft claiming or a full on claim if I said "I'm town so if I get mod-killed it should resolve into a lynch" instead of "If I am town it should resolve into a lynch, if I'm not town it would be day-vig".

Why are you bothering to hypothesize about your side at all? You wouldn't have had to have said "I'm town so ..." because that is implied when you make a statement about yourself. I mean, I don't even understand how the argument really changes, regardless if you are scum or town. If you are scum then the mod-kill wouldn't have counted as a lynch, but if you were town it would? That doesn't seem to make much sense.

The point is, the statement seems extremely cautious and self-conscientious. Like you are trying hard to make it

look like

you know you are town, rather than making a statement from the position that you

know

you are town.

What do you have up your sleeve, DTM?

---

I disagree. There wasn't much reason to breadcrumb at that point, especially when it's a blatant attempt to look imperative to the town's survival. It's strange.

You really ought to be policy lynched for this. Not just your pointing it out, which is bad enough, but your attempt to rationalize it.

---

I unvoted with the hopes someone else would pick up on DTM, for I didn't have the time this weekend to press him on the issue.

I keep beating myself up because I don't feel I have as good of a beat on this game as I did my previous two mini normals (where, if I may be so pompous, I diligently led the both towns to D1 scum lynchings from very early on in the day).

In any case, I don't think Ik is scum at the moment. I don't think it will necessarily lead to issues down the road, as I think don suggested, but I'm worried that I'm seeing scum at everyone I look at regardless.

For what it's worth, I'm noticing some possibly great connections between players over the last two pages.

It would be nice if ryan, shrine, or RC could stop in soon so we have a better idea of where the town is leaning and (hopefully) find someone whose lynch the majority of the town supports.

You're right; you're right. I just didn't want to see an Ik lynch at that point, but I really just can't make up my mind. I think we can all agree that the only reasonable lynchings today will be Toro, jason, or Ik.

Mod

, will you please let us know what will happen in the case of a tie? Will you also please record my

vote: jasonT1981

?

What is your case on Jason? And could you show us your patented scumscale?

[Paradoxombie]

I agree with you that we should look for people with BS reasons to drop IK and I think you have the worst. ]Your case on DRK is seems weak when he openly admits that he is hopping to the more popular wagon and considering that they are both ones he already preferred. Your sudden interest in toro and disinterest in IK is just as opportunistic as your original vote on IK. Overall I think you look worst from IK Wagon II.

unvote, vote:ZachRulez

DRK openly admitting to hopping to the more popular wagon doesn't make it any less scummy in my eyes.

Think what you want about my sudden interest in Toro. The way he followed me onto that wagon was just horrible.

You saying I look the worst on the IK wagon while previously scrutinizing Don with a major FOS is hilarious though. Even more interesting than that is that you hadn't really mentioned me as a suspect prior to the above post. (At least not since your previous vote of me which you cast while I was V/LA.)

We just had a new bandwagon collapse and you admit we should be scrutinizing those who dropped. Don't pretend you're exempt. You admit I did vote you and I think your recent series of opportunistic moves looks like scum trying to dance through a chaotic deadline.

Plus, it would be stupid to vote a claimed power role at this point.

[Paradoxombie]

Don you don't know the whole game, therefore I say the town should not be taking your advice.

[Paradoxombie]

Deadline is 9:00 am Eastern Time tomorrow if I'm not mistaken.

MOD

Could you clarify how many hours to deadline? And is there any chance we could get a deadline extension because of all this activity?

unvote, vote:Toro

in case there will be no extension.

[Paradoxombie]

I agree with you that we should look for people with BS reasons to drop IK and I think you have the worst. ]Your case on DRK is seems weak when he openly admits that he is hopping to the more popular wagon and considering that they are both ones he already preferred. Your sudden interest in toro and disinterest in IK is just as opportunistic as your original vote on IK. Overall I think you look worst from IK Wagon II.

unvote, vote:ZachRulez

DRK openly admitting to hopping to the more popular wagon doesn't make it any less scummy in my eyes.

Think what you want about my sudden interest in Toro. The way he followed me onto that wagon was just horrible.

You saying I look the worst on the IK wagon while previously scrutinizing Don with a major FOS is hilarious though. Even more interesting than that is that you hadn't really mentioned me as a suspect prior to the above post. (At least not since your previous vote of me which you cast while I was V/LA.)

We just had a new bandwagon collapse and you admit we should be scrutinizing those who dropped. Don't pretend you're exempt. You admit I did vote you and I think your recent series of opportunistic moves looks like scum trying to dance through a chaotic deadline.

Plus, it would be stupid to vote a claimed power role at this point.

Who said I'm exempt?

And who dropped from that bandwagon? How likely is DRK to actually be lynched? What about Red Coyote? Toro?, HipHop?

You criticized the fact that I haven't mentioned you as a previous suspect when you just said you were looking at people coming off the wagon. But you are one of those people jumping off the wagon so I think it makes sense I'd be starting to look at you. You jumped to a case on DRK while leaving yourself open to all the popular wagons including jason, ik and toro.

[Paradoxombie]

unvote, vote:Zachrulez

[Paradoxombie]

Zach, there's a difference between being willing to vote people at deadline, and developing suspicions on those people. In a relatively short time you've developed suspicions of Toro, Jason, and IK. There were previous cases on them since much earlier, but they all became suspects of yours as it became clear they would be the best potential lynches. I understand being willing to lynch, but your suspicions read as opportunistic. All of them basically besides the one on DRK which is just strange. It makes sense to hop off the IK wagon and look for another possible lynch before deadline. But you put your vote in a strange place so close to deadline while saying how you now suspect all the possible lynches. Why wouldn't you vote someone with potential for a lynch if you suspect so many? Unless you're purposely trying to look like you're not doing what you criticized DRK for. It doesn't look genuine. You look opportunistic and your vote on DRK may just be an attempt to mask that.

^^ absolutely. that's two power role claims you disbelieve and two claimed pr's you seem to want lynched.

rc: the second sentence is what i've been saying all along. many of us have suspicions of others that are based around their interaction with the ik wagon. without confirming ik's alignment the suspicions don't hold as much water. yes, another wagon and another flip would help to confirm things as well, but ik has claimed. i don't see the benefit of forcing another claim with less than 48 hours to deadline when we have a good(and relatively safe) suspect to lynch. just because we are secondguessing his alignment doesn't change the fact that he has now voted for two claimed pr's. am i skeptical of toro? a bit, but not enough to out and out push for a lynch on someone who may be able to be confirmed in other ways. ik is just playing terrible here and is either scum or misguided town. if he flips town he will be a good information lynch and town won't lose a potential power role nor risk outing yet another claim on DAY 1.

i'll lynch jason to avoid a no-lynch. but if he's scum he'll be here tomorrow. if we have a vig they might take him out tonight. we need information to have a productive day 2 and pushing someone else closer to lynch this close to deadline can be extremely detrimental to town.

You don't even care about alignment in this choice; the mere amount of suspicion on a person makes them worth lynching? Your logic basically justifies every vote on the IK wagon, so I can't see how your going to go after the people who voted just like you.

[Paradoxombie]

mod: i approve a deadline extension.

In case anyone is wondering, this should be seen unmistakably as a townie move.

I would also have supported this, for what it's worth.

---

It seems more like a neutral tell to me since a player(me) had already asked about a deadline extension and the mod just explained how we could have one with a majority vote. I'd expect any sane player scum or town would be instantly agreeing to one.

Thinking about it though don probably would've gotten his wish of an IK lynch if there was no extension. Did you consider that don? You read as eager for night so why do you want the extension?

[Paradoxombie]

heh I didn't mean to put that emoticon in, but I kind of like how it punctuates the whole post.

[Paradoxombie]

I also agree that don's move is more pro-town considering he was the first person to request the extension. The rest of the votes should be considered null tells (even mine) for obvious reasons (ie due to time zones and such...). Even the people who didn't request an extension.

Actually I was the one to request an extension.

So you don't think IK is suspicious for posting without voting for an extension?

[Paradoxombie]

I am town aligned

wait a minute, if jason is scum how is his claim verifiable? Unless we lie as town, won't jason just tell any town players they are telling the truth like any good player would?

It's also a vague role. If I pm the mod with a password and say one in game that could be true or false, would the mod inform you that?

Also I don't like that jason only gave the role and did not suggest any tactics or uses for it. If you've known this all game, shouldn't you have more to say? He should've given us both the mechanics

and

the dynamics.

And although I'd normally ignore his defensiveness about claiming, I think that combined with those points make me fairly willing to lynch jason regardless of his claim. It'd be nice to have him help us lynch scum but he could easily lead the town on a wild goose chase if he is fakeclaiming. And I'll admit I'm feeling a bit calloused to claims after so many.

I'd prefer a zach lynch overall, but I'd still hammer a jason lynch over IK.

[Paradoxombie]

Actually, I change my mind. I think we're better off waiting until D2 for jason, and I think it's a bit too close to deadline to fight an IK lynch.

unvote, vote: Idiotking

[Paradoxombie]

that should be L-1 if I'm not mistaken.

[Paradoxombie]

Whoever can hammer should just do it.

[Paradoxombie]

I just was starting to get worried. I guess it may have been unwarranted though.

[Paradoxombie]

i am town aligned.

Don this is stupid. How could everybody fall for this? If Jason is scum each day all he has to say is yes this person is town-aligned. Mix a couple of scum in there and nobody knows which way is up and which way is down. No, I will not say what I am aligned to. I prefer Jason find some other information to ask about me if he is town-aligned. Something that I might just say he is lying to. What an easy scum claim. And you guys fell for it? ha. You guys made it easy on him.

The worst part is that no scum( even an Sk) will come out and say Jason is lying that he really isn't town aligned, because otherwise they would be lynching themselves.

Yes I believed we should of lynched Jason.

This deserves a

FOS Don

for starting this nonsense and for threatening everybody if they didn't follow you.

That's basically what I said, but I think the suspicion should be directed at Jason, not Don. I don't think don's plan will work, but there are still other ways to find out someone's alignment.

If Jason does end up scum, then nail don for it. Until then don has enough points against him already.

[Paradoxombie]

@ryan7254: Unbelievably, I actually picked DRK.

I agree that this is unbelievable.

unvote, vote:Toro

I just don't buy that you got lucky like that.

[Paradoxombie]

I see no reason for anyone to claim except near a lynch. Otherwise we are sacrificing the town's power to alleviate our curiosity. Whatever happened last night, it was good, I'm happy. I'd be happy if it happened again.

FOS

Zach for asking for a vig claim. What WIFOM are you talking about? How would a claim help us besides getting our vig killed? And even if they claimed we'd still suspect them as an SK.

[Paradoxombie]

Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa.

[Paradoxombie]

Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa.

What I had was a lot of people I was willing to lynch over no lynching in a deadline situation.

As for not throwing down a vote. Is a quick lynch on Toro really what you're driving for right now? Personally I'd prefer to do some re-reading and more thinking.

Well it's awfully easy to float along when you're doing that. I mean your first post was just an echo of things people had said before you. I'd say that about most people you've suspected besides DRK, which makes me wonder.

[Paradoxombie]

Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.

^^ yes. if vig doesn't claim today then we would have no choice but to disbelieve the claim later. better to have this particular role out in the open. the fact that a mafia was killed means there may be a protective role on board. as i said: one successful vig shot is more than we can ask for. let the other town pr's work. by lynching toro we will also have a better idea of what happened last night. i.e. if he is town then he most liekly did block drk and very well may have been what prevented the other nk. i see no reason for a vig to hide. i refer you to mini 712- capital of the world where vig claimed day 1, fired night 1, and town went on to win. not exactly the same scenario, but that game changed the way i look at vig's. i am always skeptical of the late game claiming vig as it is poor town play. if vig doesn't claim today we have to work on the assumption that there isn't one. that is my stand here. i am willing to discuss this matter, but i doubt anyone will change my mind.

I agree a vig will be more dangerous than useful at this point. So if they really want to help the town they might as well claim.

[Paradoxombie]

Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.

^^ yes. if vig doesn't claim today then we would have no choice but to disbelieve the claim later. better to have this particular role out in the open. the fact that a mafia was killed means there may be a protective role on board. as i said: one successful vig shot is more than we can ask for. let the other town pr's work. by lynching toro we will also have a better idea of what happened last night. i.e. if he is town then he most liekly did block drk and very well may have been what prevented the other nk. i see no reason for a vig to hide. i refer you to mini 712- capital of the world where vig claimed day 1, fired night 1, and town went on to win. not exactly the same scenario, but that game changed the way i look at vig's. i am always skeptical of the late game claiming vig as it is poor town play. if vig doesn't claim today we have to work on the assumption that there isn't one. that is my stand here. i am willing to discuss this matter, but i doubt anyone will change my mind.

I agree a vig will be more dangerous than useful at this point. So if they really want to help the town they might as well claim.[/quote

Protection will come.

*fixed tags

[Paradoxombie]

Mod could you fix those tags?

done

[Paradoxombie]

Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa.

What I had was a lot of people I was willing to lynch over no lynching in a deadline situation.

As for not throwing down a vote. Is a quick lynch on Toro really what you're driving for right now? Personally I'd prefer to do some re-reading and more thinking.

Well it's awfully easy to float along when you're doing that. I mean your first post was just an echo of things people had said before you. I'd say that about most people you've suspected besides DRK, which makes me wonder.

Let's not be hypocritical here, that's pretty much what you did agreeing with how unbelievable toro's claim sounded.

The following posts pretty much suspect me for doing that, without leaping to the same vote that you did.

Quite interested that you flipped to believing that a vig claim is best after attacking me for calling for one, which also calls your interest in lynching a claimed roleblocker into question when it seems to have prevented a mafia kill.

I placed a vote because I wanted to do something while I rethought things. I'd like to reread too but I still want to pressure people over things going on now.

How is it interesting if I change my mind, when you did the same? Now that's hypocrisy. I still don't think a claimed vig will clarify anything, but I agree that the town has a better shot if they claim now.

And I wanted to lynch that roleblocker yesterday but I decided to wait to see if he came up with a BS night action today.

[Paradoxombie]

I just think a vig would survive in this game. There are a number of other claimed roles plus the chance of them hitting scum or scum getting blocked by a doctor or RB. I just said it very confidently in a cheap attempt to convince someone who wants to keep playing rather than get NKed.

At this point I have to think it's an SK because I think DRK looked more like an SK target than vig target.

Hiphop, you are right but claiming doesn't = death. And viging someone doesn't give them a chance to claim or a wagon for us to gain info from.

[Paradoxombie]

Yeah, I feel like Toro is trying to pull an IK.

[Paradoxombie]

@Paradox
737: You're certain a vig claim would not invoke a NK target based on that reasoning? It reads as role fishing before ryan claimed. Some issues with your logic are:

1. The town protects are now targeting one of the town PRs (I hope they did). You are insinuating that one of the claimed/softclaimed PRs is scum here with the doc protects scum idea.

2. The town vig would target an unCCed town PR. That would be silly right there, only an SK would do that. Unless the doc moved his protect from the town claimed PRs (that would be odd) the vig kill will resolve on another player. So your logic that the town vig is safe from kills seem fishy to me, pre-claim even.

I was role fishing. I don't think the vig will necessarily survive, but i'd prefer them claimed and dead than alive and unclaimed.

[Paradoxombie]

I don't care if ryan is scum or town, we would be wise to kill him.

Ironically I think he becomes more dangerous with each scum he kills. It means he's more likely to hit town tonight. Ryan, would you hold your kill tonight, on pain of death?

[Paradoxombie]

@Pardox

If worst case scenario happens we would lose 3 townies out of 7. That's 4 people left and we would be in lylo.

The best bet for us is to

not lynch Ryan but for him to no kill tonight

if you want to avoid this.

Like I said, I'd be willing to do that on the condition we vow to kill him if he disobeys.

Does anyone else think a massclaim might be a good idea?

[Paradoxombie]

I am the tracker. I tracked Don who visited me N1 and Zach who visited me N2. Basically I believe both of their claims. Last night I forgot to submit a choice. I'm kinda pissed but I think we have this game in the bag, and it's possible that there was no NK anyway.

I think our best option now is to just kill ryan. It is the "safe" choice.

unvote, vote:ryan

Then we lynch DTM if there is a tomorrow.

[Paradoxombie]

Actually I made a mistake. The PM does say that he visited Ryan. I must've gotten mixed up at some point.

[Paradoxombie]

If you still think I'm lying, for what purpose?

[Paradoxombie]

1. True enough.

2. Well I suspected Don and Zach significantly at those points. Then I suddenly stopped after those nights. Plus I guessed that Don was the doc around when he was so in favor of a vig claim, and that's partially why I came to agree with that.

[Paradoxombie]

2. I have issues with your night actions regardless with the claim based on convenience. Your lack of night action last night concerns me since you did not state why you didn't post anything towards the end of day 2 till now. Why didn't you post anything between that time.

When I last came in it was post-hammer. It was a rather quick lynch, imo. I considered whether it would be worth claiming in twilight but decided against it in hope I could track you, who is potentially the last mafia. I tend to procrastinate to deadline for my night choices but it seems pretty stupid this time because my only other choice would've been ryan, but the whole point of procrastinating was to think that through. I expected a chance to go on the night before nightchoice deadline but ended up hanging out with my friend. More generally though I've been back at school, and have had less chances to post compared to the summer.

3. With the first post of today, it can be attributed as actively lurking. You answered the questions about the claim then went towards ryan for the "safe vote". What is your analysis on the town right now?

You or Ryan is the last scum. I just don't see much point in deciding between you and him. On the off chance that you're both scum I'd prefer to kill ryan today. Basically I am actively lurking because, as I said, only deadline will change my mind. Though I'm open to reasoning if my thinking is off.

[Paradoxombie]

Since ryan agree's, there should be nothing else to discuss, imo. I don't think the town should give up more info about night actions.

[Paradoxombie]

Well Don's logic makes sense to me.

unvote, vote:DTMaster

[Paradoxombie]

I didn't realize that was a hammer. Oh well.

[Paradoxombie]

3 to lynch. Hence the whole Don wanted Zach to be careful with his vote.

Doesn't really make a difference.

[Paradoxombie]

I think Don is scum. There is no reason for RC to have been killed by mafia N2 over Don, the claimed powerrole. I thought his role as Doctor was confirmed because he visited me when there was no NK, but toro had blocked the goon that night.

I also don't like how early on he was eager to have the vig killed, but later started wanting him alive, as it became more likely he's kill town than scum.

Don, claim your night actions from all game.

[Paradoxombie]

i already claimed my actions. why ask again?

paradox: do you believe that the set-up is devoid of a town protective role?

I think Don is scum. There is no reason for RC to have been killed by mafia N2 over Don, the claimed powerrole. I thought his role as Doctor was confirmed because he visited me when there was no NK, but toro had blocked the goon that night.

^^ seems like extreme retroactive thinking here.

zach: what are your thoughts?

I don't recall you claiming them, and I can't find it. That's why I'm asking.

If I was scum, there was no way I could have known the vig wouldn't kill me like we agreed.I tracked ryan last night and he did nothing. It would be unreasonable for scum to expect that, wouldn't you agree?

I don't like that you're asking for Zach's thoughts before you give yours on him? You gambled a lot on the idea he was protown. You still so sure? Or did you plan on waiting for him to back you up before you reaffirm it?

[Paradoxombie]

sorry for the triple post, but if you are tracker, shouldn't you have someone cleared by now? you should have targeted either me or zach. but you obviously didn't.

FoS: paradoxombie

zach: he should have reported his results immediately. why hasn't he? here's my confession:

i am only a two shot doc. i haven't been able to protect you the last two nights. i was bluffing.

note that paradox claimed his targets initially after you and i were revealed. he should have tracked one of us last night. he obviously didn't track me, and he obviously didn't track you. had he tracked ryan he would have said something, but he didn't. if you need more of a case i will be glad to work on it, but if you read dox in iso it should be obvious. if you are scum then you deserve to win. so whatever.

balls to the wall, brother.

Nobody visited don on night one.

I tracked Don who visited me N1.

^^ i am obvtown here. i think zach is town, but i want to here some more discussion.

You are not Obv town. And that's a damn scummy thing to say I think. Who thinks about how town they look? I see no reason to think you're town, and you've actually done many scummy things, especially early on. Also, you're only protects just happen to be ones that we saw? I'm doubtful.

You said yesterday that you had reason to believe ryan was SK, but didn't want to "play your cards". What was it?

[Paradoxombie]

i am confirmed.

yours and zach's results conflict

. if you are town and don't want to be lynched then you should be focusing on proving to me that zach is the final scum, not giving me lip. got it?

weak.

You are not confirmed as far as I can see. And

if

you're town you should convince ME instead of making threats, because if you don't I'm going to vote YOU and we'll lose either way. If you really were scumhunting me it wouldn't make any difference who I was going after. But now you want me to hush up on the arguments about you. huh.

I did recently notice the point you make about zach and my results, but I am unsure if a tracker would count as "visiting" someone. Also, why would scum fakeclaim watcher like Zach did?

[Paradoxombie]

You can't simultaneously attack me and say you blocked the kill N1. You can't have it both ways. You would be voting zach if you were sure of that yourself. I also agreed to your plan expecting to be killed.


I am unsure what the setup is, but I'm very suspicious of the fact that you rapidly changed your mind about ryan and saw zach as clear for little reason yesterday. You also claimed a powerrole and weren't killed.

I've been suspicious of zach before. And I've been in a situation like this before where one guy was quiet and two guys were super active arguing with each other, and the two of us ended up distracted and lost because of it. I am also starting to think zach because his post today looks the most like an attempt to float through. If Don was scum he could easily go after me and win, but that seems more like what zach is doing. Backing the guy who backed him yesterday. Don you look more paranoid like me.

[Paradoxombie]

Lame. Zach seemed obvious scum to me, but for some reason I always go after more confusing answers. I won't make this mistake a third time.

[Paradoxombie]

Well the town was screwed by not having any lynch bandwagons on scum, which is very helpful in separating both town and scum out of the neutral zone in my read. At the end I was struggling to work with just claims and process of elimination.

[Paradoxombie]

paradox: you were at least still using some form of dedictive reasoning at the end. in fact, you nearly had me convinced to vote zach, but i couldn't get past the facts surrounding your claim and subsequent targets. targeting ryan the last night didn't make any sense to me. at least you didn't vote for a townie in lylo.

My mistake was just not paying enough attention. Early on I felt very in control but as ryan nailed scum after scum I just got less interested because I felt it was only a matter of time until the end. I mean it was only a slight difference at first but it got worse and worse. By the end I was basically willing to give up any thinking of my own to follow your plan.

The reason I tracked Ryan was because I thought the only way I'd live is if Ryan killed someone else and figured I wanted to avoid the possibility of him claiming he didn't use his power. But I still didn't think it through much at all. I really thought ryan was sk and tomorrow it'd be you and zach pondering over him.

When ryan came up town and I was still alive, it was a shock and I overcompensated my previous passivity by attacking Don who I saw as one of the people to lead me into my indifference. Additionally I had extreme suspicion for you from day one that I had dropped because of my result night 1. When I realized I could be wrong in doing that the suspicion jumped back up to full and I overcompensated there too.

Another mistake was thinking you wouldn't vote me so hastily Don. I really didn't take your suspicion of me very seriously at all. Not a good idea that late in the game, I guess.