Mini 829 - Internal Struggle Mafia (Over)

[Idiotking]

Could you point out exactly what it is you found "defensive"? I am concerned that the term lurker is being thrown around carelessly, and I am concerned players like DTM, Toro, and Shrine are making assumptions about me before asking for my response to things.

Well, the whole thing seems a little tense, but in particular two specific statements jump out at me, both to DTM:



"Are you not content with waiting for me to answer your accusations before you vote me because of them? "

"The first time you brought it up was understandable, albeit presumptive. The second time you brought it up was disconcerting. Now you bring it up a third time, without waiting for my response, in order to do what exactly? "


The first statement is in response to DTM's statement that your reasonless, substanceless vote was random. Am I the only one who thinks this seems a little defensive in the non-good way? Though you didn't say it specifically, it sounds almost like the next line would read 'how DARE you for saying my vote was random!' I just get this feeling of extreme anger from it. How does everyone else think about this?

The second statement also seems pushy. It's a response to basically the same accusation, except that this time the accusation included that it was a post-RVS reason for a clearly RVS vote. Yet you repeatedly question why people thought it was a random vote. My question is, given the knowledge available when you posted your vote, are you actually capable of blaming people for thinking it was unnecessarily RVS in a post-RVS situation?

Well, to be honest, I was gauging for town reactions. I had expected someone to ask my why I was voting for dank, so then I could have a discussion with them. Instead, Shrine, Toro, and DTM lectured me for random voting and DTM went so far as to push people into starting a wagon against me because of my "random" vote.

I'm still not quite certain who has sincere intentions in their heart, and who is attempting to misdirect. I'm not certain who was being extremely critical of me for the sake of the town, or for the sake of making themselves look as if they're helping. What do you think about this Ik? Am I bluffing, making it up as I go along, or do you think there was an deeper reason behind my first post?

I can't believe that you don't understand why people reacted in that manner. I think DTM reacted very appropriately, and now I think you're going back trying to trump up some reasons that weren't there originally. If there was a deeper reason behind our first post, you should damn well say what it is. Subtlety is what'll get you killed in a game like this, because subtlety is what the town is looking for.

@Idiot King
In your 109 can you put your name with that quote. I know this is on the same page, but it makes looking up the source a lot easier (especially since it was the only quote. You can leave out the ="name" tag for a chain of quotes like in your 107)

My apologies, it's a bad habit.

IK-says hiphop's "exploded in scumminess" but never votes for him

In that post or one very near it, I'd also said it's way too early for a lynch, and at the time, he'd had accumulated quite a number of votes on him already. I'm the kind of person who doesn't pressure vote someone if they've got several votes on them already; my vote would just push one more inch to a lynch without actually putting any more pressure on him. Do you have a differing opinion?

[Idiotking]

In my opinion, I think we have a fairly large portion of good logic, contrary to what IK thinks.

Logic requires fact, fact can't happen exist without concrete evidence of it, true concrete evidence doesn't exist until night actions have taken place, people are dead, and true roles of the departed are known. Then, using the logic from the next day, the logic of the previous day can be dissected and new facts emerge. At least that's how I see it, and helps explain why I do so poorly in RVS.

[DTMaster]

Nice activity to catch up to for a change, here are some thoughts that haven't been said that I thought should be pointed out.

@Toro

Your 121 bothers me with this line:

Pretty much all the talk about me just jumping on the hiphop bandwagon,

the reasons were there for my vote, they just weren't mine.

You admit you are weak at scum hunting, but the bolded part doesn't jive well with me since it makes you look like you are going with the town flow.

@Hiphop

Your 123 makes little sense since you don't have to revote after your RVS. In face I would be concerned if you took it to the extreme and randomly voted, unvoted, and revoted. There are more ways to play then that.

The rest of your arguments make sense, abet in different words from what I would say. Just wanted to clarify, are you using your gut feeling in that statement, or is it just a random vote? (See your 125)

@DRK
Wait wut? Did you just seriously ask for a claim in your 146? Bad rolefishing! Bad!

@Ryan
It is still early to say we have good logic. The only definite way have any information is the start of day 2 when we have some concrete proof of at least a couple of people.

I still consider everything is up in the air, with

lots of speculation

and WIFOM arguments. But that doesn't mean we can't take good notes or forgo scumhunting.

Also can you elaborate more on IK and Hiphop's responses and how IK's demonstrate better logic then hiphop's? Also can you also elaborate more on "IK has a legitimate excuse" ?

[RedCoyote]

I'm very grateful that you don't separate each of your points into different posts, but lengthy walls generally do more harm than good... so can you keep them to a minimum? Please?

Since you asked nicely. XD

I will try to trim as much fat as I can.

The way you [anyone] conveys what they mean is pretty crucial. There was definitely a better way to phrase "scum number 1", and the way he worded it made it seem as though he was more confident in his suspicion than he was.

Is your vote still on Dank for this reason?

Yes, I would prefer to hear more from him at this point. I definitely agree that hiphop worded it poorly. My argument is that dank knew this as well, and he used it against him rather than to question him.

---

I did not said I wanted a prod at

36 hours in

, since it is unreasonable to ask you for that.

I'm not saying you did. I'm just saying you brought up the need for prods too early. You could've said, "If this keeps up for another week we should probably prod" and it would've been the same. Anyways, this, so far as I can tell, has little to do with your alignment, and was more just something that annoyed me.

Easy to create a pro-town image, good backdoor exit if no one presses you, comes with an excuse: "you simply didn't ask me", and implies you only respond if something is addressed to you or someone addresses you.

Well, that's for you to figure out now, isn't it?

---

It's kind of hard to gauge town reactions when you disappear for a couple of days in between posts. I have no problem with you posting once every couple of days with a lot of content or with trying to read reactions, but I just can't see the two working well together.

Fair enough. I would just say, in response to that, I don't mind coming to the thread with one or two new pages of activity. That's kind of a pace I'm accustomed to doing, although I will try to make my posts shorter for y'all from here on out.

---

The majority of RC's posts were not about me, so I didn't really notice the case he made

You didn't notice my vote?

The case centers around the post I made, which both goes after hiphop's odd certainty by using "scum number 1", but more importantly, the fact that he was afraid to vote someone who was afraid to bandwagon, because then he'd be bandwagoning. That's all it was.

Huh? Yeah, I know that. I'm asking you what you thought hiphop meant by the phrase "scum number 1".

---

In the first quote, Jason brought up a point that I personally think hiphop had just settled (and that hiphop had already explained). Arguably, hiphop's statement from the second quote seemed a bit contradictory, but it's pretty clear to me what hiphop meant. He practically gave the definition of a random vote (just worded oddly). It looks to me like Jason could very easily be trying to fan the flames without committing himself to either side.

I think this is a very poignant observation, and this calls for some reaction from jason.

---

As well as that I was not fully convinced he was scum... so non comittal yea, I guess that is in a way.. But when I place a vote (aside from RVS) I am 100% sure I feel that person is scum.

I would recommend you not be weary of using your vote a little more strategically. Be flexible. Your vote is a tool, not a promise. You definitely do not have to be 100% sure of anything before you use your vote.

---

Though you didn't say it specifically, it sounds almost like the next line would read 'how DARE you for saying my vote was random!' I just get this feeling of extreme anger from it.

Alright, well, I'm not sure how I could've sounded more objective. You're welcome to suggest other means of asking DTM why he made said accusation multiple times before hearing and processing my response that doesn't sound as "defensive".

I think DTM reacted very appropriately, and now I think you're going back trying to trump up some reasons that weren't there originally. If there was a deeper reason behind our first post, you should damn well say what it is. Subtlety is what'll get you killed in a game like this, because subtlety is what the town is looking for.

I disagree. I think DRK's response was much more "appropriate" by whatever standard you choose to assess it. I also disagree with your criticism of my playstyle, but I guess we're at an understanding there.

---

@DRK
Wait wut? Did you just seriously ask for a claim in your 146? Bad rolefishing! Bad!

Pretty sure this was tongue-in-cheek.

[alexhans]

Mod: Where did toro vote himeslf? I don't remember him doing that.

*Remember when I told you that your mind could play games with you? Well... it seems to playing games with me too... After all, I'm your subconscience.

I double checked this list. It should be fine.

I'm very happy with the activity so far. Keep up the good work!

------------------

Those in danger of suppression #6:

dank (1)

-

RedCoyote

hiphop (2)

-

Zachrulez, ryan2754

jasonT1981 (1)

-

DeathRowKitty

RedCoyote (1)

-

DTMaster

toro (3)

-

hihop, Paradoxombie, dank

Not Voting (4)

-

Idiotking, Shrinehme, Toro, jasonT1981

Happiness with Posting Level:

HAPPY!

Mod's State of Mind:

UNSTABLE

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

[Zachrulez]

OK

The reason I didn't vote earlier is because I was pointing out what was wrong with Hiphops postings... I was not building a case.

after that however the misrep on me was bad yes when he stated I was anxious for his lynch and started me thinking more, and one of the reasons I did not vote then was because it would have put him at L-1 I believe at the time.

As well as that I was not fully convinced he was scum... so non comittal yea, I guess that is in a way.. But when I place a vote (aside from RVS) I am 100% sure I feel that person is scum.

See, this validates the point about you fence sitting. You seem to acknowledge that Hiphop is scummy, and arguably the most scummy player in the game so far, but seem unwilling to vote him.

There are times to be cautious, and there are times that scum might believe that it's a good time to

pretend

to be cautious.

Being 100% convinced of someone's guilt in a mafia game is generally impossible. Using that line as a reason not to vote is simply not valid.

That said, I'm still happy with my vote on Hiphop. I can't understand why the bandwagon on him has derailed. I also don't see what all the fuss is about Toro. His play looks like textbook newbie play to me. That's just the way I'm seeing it anyway.

[DeathRowKitty]

@DRK
Wait wut? Did you just seriously ask for a claim in your 146? Bad rolefishing! Bad!

You wouldn't be saying that if he'd actually claimed scum! But yes, as RC pointed out, it was tongue-in-cheek.

It is still early to say we have good logic. The only definite way have any information is the start of day 2 when we have some concrete proof of at least a couple of people.

I still consider everything is up in the air, with lots of speculation and WIFOM arguments.

I disagree. Personally I think the information we get from the night actions just leads to more speculation. and WIFOM. Sure we'll have more information Day 2 when we know alignments, but we do have information now. We have 6+ pages of posts to use with more coming. We have everyone's thoughts recorded and IMO, that's better than any evidence the night actions can give us. I'm not saying we shouldn't use the night actions to our advantage, but I don't see why there can't be any logic without them.

The majority of RC's posts were not about me, so I didn't really notice the case he made

You didn't notice my vote?

Wait, you didn't notice the

bolded text

in RC's post?? Even if you just skimmed his posts, which should be a

minimum

, you should have noticed the bolded text. I can't say I consider not reading to be a scum tell or reading to be a town tell (I was scum in my last game and I probably read every word of every post twice), but not reading is definitely anti-town.

IK-says hiphop's "exploded in scumminess" but never votes for him

In that post or one very near it, I'd also said it's way too early for a lynch, and at the time, he'd had accumulated quite a number of votes on him already.

Fair enough. What do you think of hiphop now?

I thought I did express my opinions on Hiphop and those opinions where how he was wrong in what he said

Saying hiphop was wrong in what he said isn't giving an opinion on him. I could say Newton was wrong in formulating his theory of gravity and I haven't given an opinion of him.

I'm just looking for a couple of sentences saying precisely what you think of him at this moment. Is he scummy? How much so? Do you think he would make a good lynch? etc. Anything you think is important to your hiphop views.

[hiphop]

@dtm concerning 123, At the point I wasn't sure if the rvs was even over. The only reason I knew to random vote in the first place was because I looked at the beginning of the other mini games. I didn’t know how far you carried it. So I believe I should have revoted again.

About the 125, the idiotking vote was a random vote. I said in 51 it was random, but everybody kept questioning me about it, so I tried to explain it a different way.

@ryan As it says in the newbie guide, “Generally, players will vote for someone they think is Mafia” if you think, based on what I said, I am the most likely candidate to be the mafia, then so be it. I have tried explaining, but I can only go so far. Don’t you believe that sometimes a town can act scummy?

[DTMaster]

@ Mod
Lols, and kudos to the unstable mind status. :3

@RC
Annoyance noted. :p

But your little taunt:

Well, that's for you to figure out now, isn't it?

Gives me a bad gut feeling. I'll just make note of that for now.

@DRK
Actually I thought you meant a cop claim, not the scum claim. When I reread it again the sarcasm hit me.

We have 6+ pages of posts to use with more coming. We have everyone's thoughts recorded and IMO, that's better than any evidence the night actions can give us. I'm not saying we shouldn't use the night actions to our advantage, but I don't see why there can't be any logic without them.

Which is why in the second sentence I said that "doesn't mean we can't take good notes or forgo scumhunting". I agree with everything you say, but if you are looking at some concrete evidence then Day 2 is the only day we have something like that to continue on.

@Exchange b/w dank , DRK, and RC
There is also the vote count. Do people read them anymore?

@Hiphop
When RVS is over depends on the person really. I think its over when discussion begins. Other people think its over at the end of day 1 because
they view day 1 discussion as poor evidence for a good lynch.

[Idiotking]

Fair enough. What do you think of hiphop now?

Pretty much the same, but it's still too early to lynch. I don't like his repeated line that "this is all some big mistake, the town shouldn't be going after me because I'm town, can't you see that?"

[DeathRowKitty]

Let's say we were 10 or 15 pages further into the game. Would you be willing to vote and/or lynch hiphop? Basically, how scummy do you find him?

[Toro]

Nice activity to catch up to for a change, here are some thoughts that haven't been said that I thought should be pointed out.

@Toro

Your 121 bothers me with this line:

Pretty much all the talk about me just jumping on the hiphop bandwagon,

the reasons were there for my vote, they just weren't mine.

You admit you are weak at scum hunting, but the bolded part doesn't jive well with me since it makes you look like you are going with the town flow.

I

was

going with the flow.

[Zachrulez]

Going with the flow is generally considered suboptimal play, and even scummy by some.

You are expected to think for yourself, and give your own insight in reaction to the events of the game.

A go with the flow attitude, if present in enough players, promotes quick lynching with minimal thought, and as the saying goes short days hurt the town.

Your play style is potentially very dangerous to the town. You need to learn as you go and develop your play style into something that is more than just going with the flow.

[Toro]

Going with the flow is generally considered suboptimal play, and even scummy by some.

You are expected to think for yourself, and give your own insight in reaction to the events of the game.

A go with the flow attitude, if present in enough players, promotes quick lynching with minimal thought, and as the saying goes short days hurt the town.

Your play style is potentially very dangerous to the town. You need to learn as you go and develop your play style into something that is more than just going with the flow.

Which I'm starting to do.

[Idiotking]

Let's say we were 10 or 15 pages further into the game. Would you be willing to vote and/or lynch hiphop? Basically, how scummy do you find him?

If he was still acting the same, probably, unless someone else somehow topped him.

[dank]

RC- Scum number 1 certainly sounds more confident than scummy, and most people would vote someone they found scummy. If they see someone as scum number 1, there's no reason why a vote shouldn't be on that person within the same post they point it out. The fact that it wasn't, and the certainty that phrase carried, supported by bw argument.

[hiphop]

@dank let me put it another way. If I were to make a list of most likely to be scum, I would make a list, with most suspicious on the top to probably not on the bottom. I would than number them from 1 to how many people are in the game. Therefore when I said scum number 1, I meant the top of my list.

I understand what you might think it meant, but that is not how I intended it to mean. There is no way that anyone can be that certain of scum, the way you thought it means, on day one, until the scum are dead.

[Toro]

@dank let me put it another way. If I were to make a list of most likely to be scum, I would make a list, with most suspicious on the top to probably not on the bottom. I would than number them from 1 to how many people are in the game. Therefore when I said scum number 1, I meant the top of my list.

I understand what you might think it meant, but that is not how I intended it to mean. There is no way that anyone can be that certain of scum, the way you thought it means, on day one, until the scum are dead.

So who's your 'scum number one' now?

[jasonT1981]

Going with the flow is generally considered suboptimal play, and even scummy by some.

You are expected to think for yourself, and give your own insight in reaction to the events of the game.

A go with the flow attitude, if present in enough players, promotes quick lynching with minimal thought, and as the saying goes short days hurt the town.

Your play style is potentially very dangerous to the town. You need to learn as you go and develop your play style into something that is more than just going with the flow.

Oh, I have been trying to be cautious and be sure with my vote because I thought not being 100% sure on my vote would actually be hurtful and dangerous to the town.

[hiphop]

@Toro You at the moment, for that is the reason I am voting for you, but that may change. A lot of things have happened for day 1, and most likely many more.

[Toro]

@Toro You at the moment, for that is the reason I am voting for you, but that may change. A lot of things have happened for day 1, and most likely many more.

*facepalm*

Of course Toro, don't read the votecount.

[DTMaster]

Jason your latest post bothers me again.

Mod: Where did toro vote himeslf? I don't remember him doing that.

*Remember when I told you that your mind could play games with you? Well... it seems to playing games with me too... After all, I'm your subconscience.

I double checked this list. It should be fine.

I'm very happy with the activity so far. Keep up the good work!

------------------

Those in danger of suppression #6:

dank (1)

-

RedCoyote

hiphop (2)

-

Zachrulez, ryan2754

jasonT1981 (1)

-

DeathRowKitty

RedCoyote (1)

-

DTMaster

toro (3)

-

hihop, Paradoxombie, dank

Not Voting (4)

-

Idiotking, Shrinehme, Toro, jasonT1981

Happiness with Posting Level:

HAPPY!

Mod's State of Mind:

UNSTABLE

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

This is the latest vote count show that no one is in danger of getting lynched. Votes become dangerous at two times:

1. A deadline day.
2. At the end game.

We are at neither position. So I cannot see the "danger" that you present from voting. By withholding your vote and being cautious, I see more scumminess then township. This is a bit WIFOMish but it is one way to limit the use of your voting record in a case against you. Also this leaves you open to every bandwagon when an opprotunity arises and cause a mislynch.

Unvote

[/b] Vote: Jason [/b]

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: Urk

Vote: Jason

[dank]

@dank let me put it another way. If I were to make a list of most likely to be scum, I would make a list, with most suspicious on the top to probably not on the bottom. I would than number them from 1 to how many people are in the game. Therefore when I said scum number 1, I meant the top of my list.

I understand what you might think it meant, but that is not how I intended it to mean. There is no way that anyone can be that certain of scum, the way you thought it means, on day one, until the scum are dead.

Again, I understand what you meant. The point is, you did not vote who you said you found most suspicious because there were several votes on him, and voted someone else instead. You did the same thing you accused your target of being scummy for.

[Paradoxombie]

Oh, I have been trying to be cautious and be sure with my vote because I thought not being 100% sure on my vote would actually be hurtful and dangerous to the town.

Not as hurtful as no discussion. I ask: what do you think we'd be talking about now if no one had voted? Would you still be suspecting hiphop if he hadn't voted or been voted? Hypothetically, do you think town would have the advantage in a game where people could only cast one vote per day?