Mini 829 - Internal Struggle Mafia (Over)
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jasonT1981 Jack of All Trades
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To be honest I would not count out the possibility of a pro-town, and a mafia role blocker in this game given the so far claimed roles.
The only way I could have got an inconclusive result is through either being roleblocked or that Don's in a ninja or unwatchable role where night actions towards him are immune. but not too sure if that can be applied in that situation as I am only going by roles I have already seen in my 3 games on MS
Also one thought, with DRKs death.. could it be a PGO (paranoid gun owner) he was the mafia goon, and if a mafia targets a PGO the mafia targeting said person dies instead of the target? that could also explain a mafia death with no other kill-
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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please explain this. how is there "no way"? we have no other claimed prs. three prs does not sound farfetched. if toro blocked a mafia goon that could certainly explain the night results of only one nk.ryan2754 wrote: Given the current set up, there is no way all three of them are power roles, given the issue with the NK.
are you implying that mafia killed one of their own? this was mentioned before, but i find it extremely wifomic(if not completely assanine) to suggest such a thing. escpecially considering drk had little suspicion on him day 1. let's stick to the facts, and mafia killing one of their own is quite a bit outside of the realm of "most likely" scenarios here.ryan wrote:Right now, Toro seems most likely lying, as I could see him and DRK making this a mafia RB "block the night kill" ploy, in an attempt to clear Toro while sacrificing DRK.
i do agree with the suspicion of toro. the whole "it was a crapshoot" makes no sense considering toro did express suspicion of a couple players during day1. why he would say "i can be a game changer" and then use his ability supposedly "randomly" makes little to no sense.
vote: toro
i reiterate my request for a vig claim.town 39-32
mafia 17-9
sk 0-6-
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ryan2754 Goon
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don_johnson wrote:
please explain this. how is there "no way"? we have no other claimed prs. three prs does not sound farfetched. if toro blocked a mafia goon that could certainly explain the night results of only one nk.ryan2754 wrote: Given the current set up, there is no way all three of them are power roles, given the issue with the NK.
We clearly have a Vig (or SK) as well. Thus, given previously claims, that would make 4. Thus most likely that one of the three that have claimed as lying. If there is an SK, I find it highly unlikely that there are 3 town PRs, and if there are, I doubt they are the ones that have been explicitly expressed by Toro and Jason (personally, I think one of them is lying indefinitely).
No, I am not implying that. You are missing my point.don_johnson wrote:
are you implying that mafia killed one of their own? this was mentioned before, but i find it extremely wifomic(if not completely assanine) to suggest such a thing. escpecially considering drk had little suspicion on him day 1. let's stick to the facts, and mafia killing one of their own is quite a bit outside of the realm of "most likely" scenarios here.ryan wrote:Right now, Toro seems most likely lying, as I could see him and DRK making this a mafia RB "block the night kill" ploy, in an attempt to clear Toro while sacrificing DRK.
WHat I am saying is this: Toro claims Town RB, knowing we are going to be skeptical, and ask him for his N1 choice. He then discusses with his scumbuddy, to decide on NO NK. Thus, the next day, when Toro says, I RBed DRK, and no NK, so DRK must be scum. We lynch DRK, and he shows as scum, and Toro would gain a TON of ground with the rest of populace, as opposed to having to continually deal with explaining himself everyday, and eventually outting himself as mafia RB. However, seems to have possibly backfired with vig/SK kill of DRK.
I've seen stranger things, and from the few games I've played with DRK on this site (and the few he's played in general), he's pretty damn good,a nd could totally see him trying this. Not to mention, DRK never fully pushed at Toro, whereas he was hardcore on Jason, which makes me think Jason is town, personally.ShowTown: 3-4*
Scum: 2-1
SK: 0-1
Unlynched.
"Noone can deny that the Ryan, from now on known as "Bullseye", accomplished an amazing feat. Nightkilling 2 mafia roles on the first 2 nights. He deserves to win." - Alexhans, Mini 829, Town Loss-
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Paradoxombie Mafia Scum
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hiphop Mafia Scum
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I find two things plausible from the discussion of what actually happened.
Mafia got RB and SK/vig killed, or Mafia Traitor. I like the first best.
I don't find bus drivers or redirectors believable for the mafia kill, because the odds would have been greater for them. They would have to of chosen a mafia member twice in order for a mafia member to die.
Toro- Why DRK? Don't say it was coincidence, because I don't believe that. You had 28 pages to have based an opinion, if you were town (or even scum) there had to of been a reason. What is it?-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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You're right; I spoke out of turn. There would be crosskill still in this instance. I was just harping back to the one-mafia-submits-kill thing, which still kind of throws me off at times.DTM 690 wrote:DRK's kill will resolve even if she gets killed if the person didn't have NK protection. The only possible way she couldn't kill is explained in 2.
I really hope there isn't a Redirector/Bus Driver though, those confuse the hell out of me.
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This seems like the most plausible explanation to me. I see Toro's angle though, Toro is going for the angle that he blocked the Mafia's kill. To believe this, you have to set aside the improbability that both Toro and (Vig/SK/Other Mafia Group/Bodyguard/whatever role) chose the right people. Toro wants us to believe DRK's mafia team hit a double whammy. Their kill was roleblocked and the person they used to kill was killed himself.jason 700 wrote:The only way I could have got an inconclusive result is through either being roleblocked
jason used his power, and it was stopped. jason pointed out two logical reasons for this, he was either roleblocked or don has some sort of ability that would keep him from being investigated. I think don needs to do on record if he has anything in his role to indicate that he would be "uninvestigative" in anyway. I don'tthinkthis is a sort of power we would see in a Mini Normal, but I could be wrong. It seems a little complicated, but they are both valid, if not equal, solutions to why jason's investigation didn't go through.
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I believe ryan is right here. It's difficult to imagine that both Toro and jason are telling the truth at this point.ryan 702 wrote:I doubt they are the ones that have been explicitly expressed by Toro and Jason (personally, I think one of them is lying indefinitely).
I understand your point, but this seems over the top. I am agreeing more with don, this just doesn't seem as likely. I think what's more likely is Toro saw an opportunity to claim that he blocked DRK (when it's more likely that he actually blocked jason) and he is kind of using the opportunity of no kill going through presented to him. It's possible the mafia felt as though they were strong enough to make this bold a move, but DRK wasn't suspected particually hard by anyone outside of Ik so far as I can tell.ryan 702 wrote:WHat I am saying is this: Toro claims Town RB, knowing we are going to be skeptical, and ask him for his N1 choice. He then discusses with his scumbuddy, to decide on NO NK. Thus, the next day, when Toro says, I RBed DRK, and no NK, so DRK must be scum. We lynch DRK, and he shows as scum, and Toro would gain a TON of ground with the rest of populace, as opposed to having to continually deal with explaining himself everyday, and eventually outting himself as mafia RB. However, seems to have possibly backfired with vig/SK kill of DRK.
But then again, if Toro blocked jason, whatdidhappen to DRK's kill? Well, I've got to be thinking protection is the most likely.
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I read this as you believe Toro is telling the truth. What's your take on the night actions, hiphop?hiphop 704 wrote:I find two things plausible from the discussion of what actually happened.
Mafia got RB and SK/vig killed, or Mafia Traitor. I like the first best.
I'm interested in this answer as well.hiphop 704 wrote:Toro- Why DRK? Don't say it was coincidence, because I don't believe that. You had 28 pages to have based an opinion, if you were town (or even scum) there had to of been a reason. What is it?-
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alexhans Mafia Scum
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ryan2754 Goon
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If there is a bus driver/redirector, that individual should claim now to shore up any of these possible scenarios.ShowTown: 3-4*
Scum: 2-1
SK: 0-1
Unlynched.
"Noone can deny that the Ryan, from now on known as "Bullseye", accomplished an amazing feat. Nightkilling 2 mafia roles on the first 2 nights. He deserves to win." - Alexhans, Mini 829, Town Loss-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Lot of WIFOM on DRK's kill. Rather than drown in it, I think it's best that someone claim the kill if it was done by a vig, otherwise it's safe to assume that we have a serial killer walking about that crosskilled.
Toro's roleblocker target looks awfully convenient given the fact that the person he claims to have targeted is dead.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Paradoxombie Mafia Scum
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I see no reason for anyone to claim except near a lynch. Otherwise we are sacrificing the town's power to alleviate our curiosity. Whatever happened last night, it was good, I'm happy. I'd be happy if it happened again.
FOSZach for asking for a vig claim. What WIFOM are you talking about? How would a claim help us besides getting our vig killed? And even if they claimed we'd still suspect them as an SK."Beware of Zombie Entanglements."
-George Washington
So it goes.-
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Paradoxombie Mafia Scum
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Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa."Beware of Zombie Entanglements."
-George Washington
So it goes.-
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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though zach is on my shortlist, i have to disagree here. i also asked for a claim as i think a vig claim would be helpful. the problem with vig is that it is easy cover for sk. without a claim we run the risk of carrying a nightkiller into lylo type situations. this is not a good idea. i believe vigilantes should shoot early and claim early. taking a nightkill is better than scum targeting someone else who may have a more important role like cop or doc.Paradoxombie wrote:I see no reason for anyone to claim except near a lynch. Otherwise we are sacrificing the town's power to alleviate our curiosity. Whatever happened last night, it was good, I'm happy. I'd be happy if it happened again.
FOSZach for asking for a vig claim. What WIFOM are you talking about? How would a claim help us besides getting our vig killed? And even if they claimed we'd still suspect them as an SK.
i think 711 is better reasoning for an FoS than 710.town 39-32
mafia 17-9
sk 0-6-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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The WIFOM that is trying to analyze what happend over the night phase, as several players have attempted to do over multiple posts.
Eh, I guess you're right about a vig claim being a bad idea. Kinda operating under the logic that a vig would be more willing to claim than an SK, but it would also put a vig at risk if that was the case.
Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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What I had was a lot of people I was willing to lynch over no lynching in a deadline situation.Paradoxombie wrote:Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa.
As for not throwing down a vote. Is a quick lynch on Toro really what you're driving for right now? Personally I'd prefer to do some re-reading and more thinking.-
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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^^ yes. if vig doesn't claim today then we would have no choice but to disbelieve the claim later. better to have this particular role out in the open. the fact that a mafia was killed means there may be a protective role on board. as i said: one successful vig shot is more than we can ask for. let the other town pr's work. by lynching toro we will also have a better idea of what happened last night. i.e. if he is town then he most liekly did block drk and very well may have been what prevented the other nk. i see no reason for a vig to hide. i refer you to mini 712- capital of the world where vig claimed day 1, fired night 1, and town went on to win. not exactly the same scenario, but that game changed the way i look at vig's. i am always skeptical of the late game claiming vig as it is poor town play. if vig doesn't claim today we have to work on the assumption that there isn't one. that is my stand here. i am willing to discuss this matter, but i doubt anyone will change my mind.zach wrote:Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.town 39-32
mafia 17-9
sk 0-6-
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Paradoxombie Mafia Scum
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Well it's awfully easy to float along when you're doing that. I mean your first post was just an echo of things people had said before you. I'd say that about most people you've suspected besides DRK, which makes me wonder.Zachrulez wrote:
What I had was a lot of people I was willing to lynch over no lynching in a deadline situation.Paradoxombie wrote:Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa.
As for not throwing down a vote. Is a quick lynch on Toro really what you're driving for right now? Personally I'd prefer to do some re-reading and more thinking."Beware of Zombie Entanglements."
-George Washington
So it goes.-
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Paradoxombie Mafia Scum
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I agree a vig will be more dangerous than useful at this point. So if they really want to help the town they might as well claim.don_johnson wrote:
^^ yes. if vig doesn't claim today then we would have no choice but to disbelieve the claim later. better to have this particular role out in the open. the fact that a mafia was killed means there may be a protective role on board. as i said: one successful vig shot is more than we can ask for. let the other town pr's work. by lynching toro we will also have a better idea of what happened last night. i.e. if he is town then he most liekly did block drk and very well may have been what prevented the other nk. i see no reason for a vig to hide. i refer you to mini 712- capital of the world where vig claimed day 1, fired night 1, and town went on to win. not exactly the same scenario, but that game changed the way i look at vig's. i am always skeptical of the late game claiming vig as it is poor town play. if vig doesn't claim today we have to work on the assumption that there isn't one. that is my stand here. i am willing to discuss this matter, but i doubt anyone will change my mind.zach wrote:Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later."Beware of Zombie Entanglements."
-George Washington
So it goes.-
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Paradoxombie Mafia Scum
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Paradoxombie wrote:don_johnson wrote:
^^ yes. if vig doesn't claim today then we would have no choice but to disbelieve the claim later. better to have this particular role out in the open. the fact that a mafia was killed means there may be a protective role on board. as i said: one successful vig shot is more than we can ask for. let the other town pr's work. by lynching toro we will also have a better idea of what happened last night. i.e. if he is town then he most liekly did block drk and very well may have been what prevented the other nk. i see no reason for a vig to hide. i refer you to mini 712- capital of the world where vig claimed day 1, fired night 1, and town went on to win. not exactly the same scenario, but that game changed the way i look at vig's. i am always skeptical of the late game claiming vig as it is poor town play. if vig doesn't claim today we have to work on the assumption that there isn't one. that is my stand here. i am willing to discuss this matter, but i doubt anyone will change my mind.zach wrote:Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.
I agree a vig will be more dangerous than useful at this point. So if they really want to help the town they might as well claim.[/quote
Protection will come.
*fixed tags"Beware of Zombie Entanglements."
-George Washington
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Paradoxombie Mafia Scum
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Let's not be hypocritical here, that's pretty much what you did agreeing with how unbelievable toro's claim sounded.Paradoxombie wrote:
Well it's awfully easy to float along when you're doing that. I mean your first post was just an echo of things people had said before you. I'd say that about most people you've suspected besides DRK, which makes me wonder.Zachrulez wrote:
What I had was a lot of people I was willing to lynch over no lynching in a deadline situation.Paradoxombie wrote:Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa.
As for not throwing down a vote. Is a quick lynch on Toro really what you're driving for right now? Personally I'd prefer to do some re-reading and more thinking.
The following posts pretty much suspect me for doing that, without leaping to the same vote that you did.
Quite interested that you flipped to believing that a vig claim is best after attacking me for calling for one, which also calls your interest in lynching a claimed roleblocker into question when it seems to have prevented a mafia kill.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Paradoxombie wrote:
Protection will come.Paradoxombie wrote:
I agree a vig will be more dangerous than useful at this point. So if they really want to help the town they might as well claim.don_johnson wrote:
^^ yes. if vig doesn't claim today then we would have no choice but to disbelieve the claim later. better to have this particular role out in the open. the fact that a mafia was killed means there may be a protective role on board. as i said: one successful vig shot is more than we can ask for. let the other town pr's work. by lynching toro we will also have a better idea of what happened last night. i.e. if he is town then he most liekly did block drk and very well may have been what prevented the other nk. i see no reason for a vig to hide. i refer you to mini 712- capital of the world where vig claimed day 1, fired night 1, and town went on to win. not exactly the same scenario, but that game changed the way i look at vig's. i am always skeptical of the late game claiming vig as it is poor town play. if vig doesn't claim today we have to work on the assumption that there isn't one. that is my stand here. i am willing to discuss this matter, but i doubt anyone will change my mind.zach wrote:Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.Vote: Paradoxombie
Feel free to explain this post.-
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Paradoxombie Mafia Scum
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I placed a vote because I wanted to do something while I rethought things. I'd like to reread too but I still want to pressure people over things going on now.Zachrulez wrote:
Let's not be hypocritical here, that's pretty much what you did agreeing with how unbelievable toro's claim sounded.Paradoxombie wrote:
Well it's awfully easy to float along when you're doing that. I mean your first post was just an echo of things people had said before you. I'd say that about most people you've suspected besides DRK, which makes me wonder.Zachrulez wrote:
What I had was a lot of people I was willing to lynch over no lynching in a deadline situation.Paradoxombie wrote:Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa.
As for not throwing down a vote. Is a quick lynch on Toro really what you're driving for right now? Personally I'd prefer to do some re-reading and more thinking.
The following posts pretty much suspect me for doing that, without leaping to the same vote that you did.
Quite interested that you flipped to believing that a vig claim is best after attacking me for calling for one, which also calls your interest in lynching a claimed roleblocker into question when it seems to have prevented a mafia kill.
How is it interesting if I change my mind, when you did the same? Now that's hypocrisy. I still don't think a claimed vig will clarify anything, but I agree that the town has a better shot if they claim now.
And I wanted to lynch that roleblocker yesterday but I decided to wait to see if he came up with a BS night action today."Beware of Zombie Entanglements."
-George Washington
So it goes.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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It's interesting because you found me suspicious for the position you are now taking.Paradoxombie wrote:
I placed a vote because I wanted to do something while I rethought things. I'd like to reread too but I still want to pressure people over things going on now.
How is it interesting if I change my mind, when you did the same? Now that's hypocrisy. I still don't think a claimed vig will clarify anything, but I agree that the town has a better shot if they claim now.
And I wanted to lynch that roleblocker yesterday but I decided to wait to see if he came up with a BS night action today.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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