Mini 829 - Internal Struggle Mafia (Over)

[ryan2754]

My opinion hasn't changed since my last post.
Toro's response to DTM was extremely subpar.

I feel IK's lynch would give information and what not, and has sparked debate, but I am less suspicious of him than I was before. I agree that his second go around with trying to get the wagon on him again is a move scum WOULDN'T make.

As for Jason, his 500 seemed more like an attempt to fit in and act as though he was scumhunting. Doesn't seem genuine.

I as well have a weird feeling about DRK's most recent post.

[hiphop]

@idk this is my first game on this site.

[DeathRowKitty]

Wait what? IK is scummier than Jason, yet you're voting for Jason? That makes no sense at all.

I said Jason was

less blatantly

scummy than IK, nothing about how scummy they were in comparison.

Most people who play mafia on this site know all the common and obvious tells and can reasonably avoid them. We still have to be careful of players who are blatantly scummy (like IK), but Jason (to me) feels very suspicious for exhibiting more subtle scummy behavior, as if he's playing more to avoid giving off obvious tells than he is to actually play a pro-town game.

Yes, it does appear I'm wagon-hopping because I probably am. Since page 7, I've been mostly concerned with IK because I was getting a strong scum read on him. More recently, he seems slightly less scummy (I'm still very suspicious of him though), while Jason's been seeming scummier with each post. Now that I see the town doesn't support an IK lynch, it makes sense to switch wagons. It's not like I don't find Jason scummy. Plus, an iso-read on Jason doesn't exactly make him look pro-town...

Overall, I'd put Jason and IK about even in scumminess. The deciding factor before was information, which an IK lynch would be better for. When DTM mentioned gut feelings, it made me reconsider. My gut doesn't exactly say townie on IK, but it gives me a very confused read, whereas it's screaming scum on Jason, which an iso-read confirmed.

[Idiotking]

@idk this is my first game on this site.

Oh. Well then, my apologies.

But I also don't know how to act. You've been nothing but scummy. Toro has been nothing but scummy. Toro is on his second game on this site, you're on your first. You have more scumtells than Toro, but that could easily be because Toro hasn't said as much.

. . .

I need time to think on this.

[hiphop]

But I also don't know how to act. You've been nothing but scummy. Toro has been nothing but scummy. Toro is on his second game on this site, you're on your first. You have more scumtells than Toro, but that could easily be because Toro hasn't said as much.

It seems to me that you have it narrowed down between me and Toro. Are Toro and I the two most likely candidates that you will push a lynch for? Or are there others?

[DTMaster]

@Ryan
1. They wouldn't make a move on IK's BW? Can you elaborate this more?

While it looks unfavorable right now an IK lynch could be around the corner. IK, Toro and Jason have taken top spots to under go scrutiny right now but the "information analysis angle" is still being brought up against IK. While I personally agree that we should wait I don't see what would stop scum from pressing on this matter.

2. Can you also expand on your gut feeling with DRK?

@DRK
1. In that quote I even said it reads as a soft claim, not as a bread crumb. But that point aside uncc PR issues should be dealt on day 2 regardless their true alignment because we will be better equipped to deal with it on day 2. Alignments and NKs will provide us enough data to proceed more effectively if there is scum fake claiming the PR.

So right now I'd prefer to drop the Toro case, much like my don case, until day 2 arrives.

2. Your recent posts kinda reads both as: changing ideas due to new information or following the town opinion. It's odd since it gives me both pro-town and scummy readings at the same time (this is a gut reading). But from skimming through your ISO posts support the former since you did explore the Jason and Toro angles.

@Jason
Since this was asked of my by DRK, is it worth it to push a lynch on don right now? Even when I voted I felt the ideal time to deal with PR claims are day 2 onwards since the NK will serve as stronger evidence to convict or clear a person's alignment. I'm not suggesting we drop don's case, I'd prefer to revive it on day 2, same with Toro.

Also what do you have to say to the recent accusations of your scumminess based on your vote on IK?

[Toro]

My opinion hasn't changed since my last post.

Toro's response to DTM was extremely subpar.

I feel IK's lynch would give information and what not, and has sparked debate, but I am less suspicious of him than I was before. I agree that his second go around with trying to get the wagon on him again is a move scum WOULDN'T make.

As for Jason, his 500 seemed more like an attempt to fit in and act as though he was scumhunting. Doesn't seem genuine.

I as well have a weird feeling about DRK's most recent post.

Well did you want me to spend my time writing paragraphs to try and defend myself?

[RedCoyote]

@RC
I'm writing a hypothetical situation. Would you rather I stated in more absolute terms? That is borderline soft claiming or a full on claim if I said "I'm town so if I get mod-killed it should resolve into a lynch" instead of "If I am town it should resolve into a lynch, if I'm not town it would be day-vig".

Why are you bothering to hypothesize about your side at all? You wouldn't have had to have said "I'm town so ..." because that is implied when you make a statement about yourself. I mean, I don't even understand how the argument really changes, regardless if you are scum or town. If you are scum then the mod-kill wouldn't have counted as a lynch, but if you were town it would? That doesn't seem to make much sense.

The point is, the statement seems extremely cautious and self-conscientious. Like you are trying hard to make it

look like

you know you are town, rather than making a statement from the position that you

know

you are town.

What do you have up your sleeve, DTM?

---

I disagree. There wasn't much reason to breadcrumb at that point, especially when it's a blatant attempt to look imperative to the town's survival. It's strange.

You really ought to be policy lynched for this. Not just your pointing it out, which is bad enough, but your attempt to rationalize it.

---

I unvoted with the hopes someone else would pick up on DTM, for I didn't have the time this weekend to press him on the issue.

I keep beating myself up because I don't feel I have as good of a beat on this game as I did my previous two mini normals (where, if I may be so pompous, I diligently led the both towns to D1 scum lynchings from very early on in the day).

In any case, I don't think Ik is scum at the moment. I don't think it will necessarily lead to issues down the road, as I think don suggested, but I'm worried that I'm seeing scum at everyone I look at regardless.

For what it's worth, I'm noticing some possibly great connections between players over the last two pages.

It would be nice if ryan, shrine, or RC could stop in soon so we have a better idea of where the town is leaning and (hopefully) find someone whose lynch the majority of the town supports.

You're right; you're right. I just didn't want to see an Ik lynch at that point, but I really just can't make up my mind. I think we can all agree that the only reasonable lynchings today will be Toro, jason, or Ik.

Mod

, will you please let us know what will happen in the case of a tie? Will you also please record my

vote: jasonT1981

?

[Idiotking]

It seems to me that you have it narrowed down between me and Toro. Are Toro and I the two most likely candidates that you will push a lynch for? Or are there others?

REALISTICALLY, yes, it's probably between you and Toro. PREFERABLY, I'd still like it to be RC or Don. However, I know neither of those lynches are going to happen. So I have to settle for one of you two.



RC, I hate policy lynches. It's one thing to hate anti-town behavior (I still don't get how it was), it's another to lynch someone purely based off of one instance of it. Two wrongs don't make a right.

And I'm not rationalizing. I'm reasoning. Of course, you wouldn't accept that if I told you, would you?

[alexhans]

Those in danger of suppression #20:

don_johnson (1)

-

Idiotking

Idiotking (4)

-

don_johnson, Zachrulez, Toro, jasonT1981

toro (3)

-

Paradoxombie, Shrinehme, ryan2754

jasonT1981 (3)

-

hiphop, DeathRowKitty, RedCoyote

Not Voting (1)

-

DTMaster

Happiness with Posting Level:

HAPPY

Deadline:

Tuesday 25th - 1000 hs (GMT - 3)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

[alexhans]

Man... I had the busiest weekend... I should've warned you beforehand...

@Mod

In my 472 I stated:

If I'm town the modkill will not be treated as a day-vig attempt, the traditional setting is to treat it as a lynch, especially when town outnumbers the scum players. It would force us into night if I'm correct.

If you did mod-kill a town aligned person is this true that you would force it into a lynch, or is it a day-vig scenario. I'm just curious since I seen it done in this way. If you can answer this game mechanic question then I'd be happy. :3

A mod-kill should work as a punishment to the team of the mod-killed player. Therefore, if the player is scum it

WON'T

count as a lynch and the day will proceed with a clear votecount. If the player is town, it

WILL

count as a lynch.

Mod

, will you please let us know what will happen in the case of a tie? Will you also please record my

vote: jasonT1981

?

In the event of a tie there will be a nolynch. I'll add it to the rules.

[DeathRowKitty]

Also, DRK... whats with the vote hoping as of late?

Just to point out, I've used my vote conservatively this game as compared to last game, where I voted 9 times for 6 different people on Day 1.

[ryan2754]

My opinion hasn't changed since my last post.

Toro's response to DTM was extremely subpar.

I feel IK's lynch would give information and what not, and has sparked debate, but I am less suspicious of him than I was before. I agree that his second go around with trying to get the wagon on him again is a move scum WOULDN'T make.

As for Jason, his 500 seemed more like an attempt to fit in and act as though he was scumhunting. Doesn't seem genuine.

I as well have a weird feeling about DRK's most recent post.

Well did you want me to spend my time writing paragraphs to try and defend myself?

Good Lord....

[Paradoxombie]

not sure what the second part there means, but no. i have not read the entire game, nor do i plan to. if i get the chance, i will, but at this point i think I have plenty to go on and it is time consuming enough to stay current.

please explain further what you mean by getting a lynch that makes it easier for me. is the implication that i am scum looking for an easy lynch? or is the implication that i am scum looking for the lynch that will make the game easier for me? or is the implication that i am town and looking for the quickest lynch so that i can read up during night phase? or is it something else?

Your behavior reminded me of another player who was anxious to read the game but wanted a lynch first to make the rereading more illuminating. That would've explained your interest in gaining info as well, but I will go into more detail below....

i would move to jason as well, but if he flips town then the quandary surrounding ik's alignment would still stand. i think the ik lynch is necessary to confirm our current suspicions. but i'm not going to swim against the current with deadline looming.

just because i think someone is town doesn't mean its odd for me to want them lynched. someone needs to be lynched and if we do it for information its better on day 1 than in lylo. so yeah, ik should be lynched because most of our suspicions of others are based around their actions regarding his bandwagon. how can we qualify those suspicions without having 100% proof of his alignment. he claimed vanilla, we should follow through. i'm not going to tunnel this, but we need his flip. if he flips scum and i am wrong then its a good thing and i am not so egotistical as to think i am always right. he didn't get so many votes on him by accident.

Major FOS Don

First of all there will always be the quandary of not knowing someone's alignment. You haven't even read the majority of IK's behavior in this game and you are pretending you'll never know what to think of him. You have only seen a small bit of his behavior and yet you feel he will forever be an enigma. You talk about how much info we can get from each death but you act as if IK will never appear town to you.

I don't mind you not reading the game but to act this info greedy doesn't make sense. You say Jason's death won't clarify IK but how can you know that? What about their interaction throughout the game you haven't read?

You act as if IK's lynch is the only one that can illuminate us, when any lynch will have just as many votes. You say he's probably town. If you think he's town you can make all those qualifications you wanted. When it comes to linking people, you are best doing it with the pretense that anyone could be scum. Is it really such a challenge to look at the same wagon as if it was on town or scum? It's just a few pages of activity to you.

[Paradoxombie]

I agree that Hiphop has been opportunistic at times but his unvote of you at L-1 doesn't fit.

In a sense it does. The bandwagon's faltering, and now it would look rather unfashionable for him, especially when I flipped town. It's opportunism in the other direction. Basically the same thing I think about RC's unvote, but I'd rather not draw any more conclusions about his until he explains.

You can't have it both ways though. Was he getting off because the lynch was going to go through? or wasn't? Even if it was opportunistic to unvote, it must be more suspicious to stay on if you think scum would avoid it. Do you think newb scum would stay on or get off your wagon? Let us note that 2 votes were just added before hiphop unvoted so i doubt he saw it as a faltering wagon.

[Zachrulez]

Wait what? IK is scummier than Jason, yet you're voting for Jason? That makes no sense at all.

I said Jason was

less blatantly

scummy than IK, nothing about how scummy they were in comparison.

Most people who play mafia on this site know all the common and obvious tells and can reasonably avoid them. We still have to be careful of players who are blatantly scummy (like IK), but Jason (to me) feels very suspicious for exhibiting more subtle scummy behavior, as if he's playing more to avoid giving off obvious tells than he is to actually play a pro-town game.

Yes, it does appear I'm wagon-hopping because I probably am. Since page 7, I've been mostly concerned with IK because I was getting a strong scum read on him. More recently, he seems slightly less scummy (I'm still very suspicious of him though), while Jason's been seeming scummier with each post. Now that I see the town doesn't support an IK lynch, it makes sense to switch wagons. It's not like I don't find Jason scummy. Plus, an iso-read on Jason doesn't exactly make him look pro-town...

Overall, I'd put Jason and IK about even in scumminess. The deciding factor before was information, which an IK lynch would be better for. When DTM mentioned gut feelings, it made me reconsider. My gut doesn't exactly say townie on IK, but it gives me a very confused read, whereas it's screaming scum on Jason, which an iso-read confirmed.

More gut talk? You are starting to sound like Hiphop?

The thing about gut is that gut feelings are basically baseless unless you can connect the reasoning that is triggering your gut feeling in the first place.

Jason makes a point on you, you ARE vote hopping. In fact, you seem like you're really trying to gauge who the town thinks looks worse between IK and Jason and then vote accordingly, rather than going by your own reasoning.

I had a look at IK wagon, and noticed that you had unvoted Talbot right as support for the IK wagon started building up. It wasn't until the support for the wagon started deflating and scrutiny on Talbot started building again over how scummy his vote looked that you were once again willing to vote for him.

I'm also finding it interesting the way you seem to be looking to worm your suspicion away from IK as more and more of the town seems to come to a consensus that he is town based largely on gut and little else for reasoning. What I'm seeing is not strength in conviction, but vote hopping in an attempt to park your vote in a safe place.

Your suspicions do not strike me as genuine.

Unvote: Vote: DRK

I really don't like IK at all, I don't understand why people think he's town. I've heard points made about how his play makes no sense from a scum perspective, but it doesn't make any sense from a town perspective either. His play doesn't make any sense at all, except for the fact that it's scummy. I can only conclude that IK is likely town because it seems like so many people are actually bothered by his play. (But not actually suspicious of him) I am getting the general feeling that it's actually scum running away from his lynch and not town, being afraid to be tied to his lynch later in the game. I have my eye on everyone who came up with a BS excuse to leave that wagon.

You don't claim when you're not under threat of lynch, and you certainly don't ask to be lynched. IK should die simply for the latter, but it seems like we have a growing number of people who are unwilling.

Hiphop actually alleviates my suspicions with his vote of Talbot. I just got a genuine pro-town vibe from his vote change. (Where as DRK's looked far more opportunistic.)

I'm having a bit of a change of heart on Toro. Now he's not only not scumhunting, but is quite happy to vote IK right after I do. (Notice he scrutinizes IK but doesn't seem to find it worthy of a vote until he sees my post.)

I'm pretty much willing to lynch any of DRK, IK, Toro, Talbot at deadline, with DRK and Toro being the top 2, and Talbot and IK being toward the bottom of my preference.

[Zachrulez]

For the record, Talbot is Jason. I call him that out of habit. (I made an effort to call him Jason and failed to do so on a consistent basis.)

[Paradoxombie]

More gut talk? You are starting to sound like Hiphop?

The thing about gut is that gut feelings are basically baseless unless you can connect the reasoning that is triggering your gut feeling in the first place.

Jason makes a point on you, you ARE vote hopping. In fact, you seem like you're really trying to gauge who the town thinks looks worse between IK and Jason and then vote accordingly, rather than going by your own reasoning.

I had a look at IK wagon, and noticed that you had unvoted Talbot right as support for the IK wagon started building up. It wasn't until the support for the wagon started deflating and scrutiny on Talbot started building again over how scummy his vote looked that you were once again willing to vote for him.

I'm also finding it interesting the way you seem to be looking to worm your suspicion away from IK as more and more of the town seems to come to a consensus that he is town based largely on gut and little else for reasoning. What I'm seeing is not strength in conviction, but vote hopping in an attempt to park your vote in a safe place.

Your suspicions do not strike me as genuine.

Unvote: Vote: DRK

I really don't like IK at all, I don't understand why people think he's town. I've heard points made about how his play makes no sense from a scum perspective, but it doesn't make any sense from a town perspective either. His play doesn't make any sense at all, except for the fact that it's scummy. I can only conclude that IK is likely town because it seems like so many people are actually bothered by his play. (But not actually suspicious of him) I am getting the general feeling that it's actually scum running away from his lynch and not town, being afraid to be tied to his lynch later in the game. I have my eye on everyone who came up with a BS excuse to leave that wagon.

You don't claim when you're not under threat of lynch, and you certainly don't ask to be lynched. IK should die simply for the latter, but it seems like we have a growing number of people who are unwilling.

Hiphop actually alleviates my suspicions with his vote of Talbot. I just got a genuine pro-town vibe from his vote change. (Where as DRK's looked far more opportunistic.)

I'm having a bit of a change of heart on Toro. Now he's not only not scumhunting, but is quite happy to vote IK right after I do. (Notice he scrutinizes IK but doesn't seem to find it worthy of a vote until he sees my post.)

I'm pretty much willing to lynch any of DRK, IK, Toro, Talbot at deadline, with DRK and Toro being the top 2, and Talbot and IK being toward the bottom of my preference.

I agree with you that we should look for people with BS reasons to drop IK and I think you have the worst. Your case on DRK is seems weak when he openly admits that he is hopping to the more popular wagon and considering that they are both ones he already preferred. Your sudden interest in toro and disinterest in IK is just as opportunistic as your original vote on IK. Overall I think you look worst from IK Wagon II.

unvote, vote:ZachRulez

[Paradoxombie]

@RC
I'm writing a hypothetical situation. Would you rather I stated in more absolute terms? That is borderline soft claiming or a full on claim if I said "I'm town so if I get mod-killed it should resolve into a lynch" instead of "If I am town it should resolve into a lynch, if I'm not town it would be day-vig".

Why are you bothering to hypothesize about your side at all? You wouldn't have had to have said "I'm town so ..." because that is implied when you make a statement about yourself. I mean, I don't even understand how the argument really changes, regardless if you are scum or town. If you are scum then the mod-kill wouldn't have counted as a lynch, but if you were town it would? That doesn't seem to make much sense.

The point is, the statement seems extremely cautious and self-conscientious. Like you are trying hard to make it

look like

you know you are town, rather than making a statement from the position that you

know

you are town.

What do you have up your sleeve, DTM?

---

I disagree. There wasn't much reason to breadcrumb at that point, especially when it's a blatant attempt to look imperative to the town's survival. It's strange.

You really ought to be policy lynched for this. Not just your pointing it out, which is bad enough, but your attempt to rationalize it.

---

I unvoted with the hopes someone else would pick up on DTM, for I didn't have the time this weekend to press him on the issue.

I keep beating myself up because I don't feel I have as good of a beat on this game as I did my previous two mini normals (where, if I may be so pompous, I diligently led the both towns to D1 scum lynchings from very early on in the day).

In any case, I don't think Ik is scum at the moment. I don't think it will necessarily lead to issues down the road, as I think don suggested, but I'm worried that I'm seeing scum at everyone I look at regardless.

For what it's worth, I'm noticing some possibly great connections between players over the last two pages.

It would be nice if ryan, shrine, or RC could stop in soon so we have a better idea of where the town is leaning and (hopefully) find someone whose lynch the majority of the town supports.

You're right; you're right. I just didn't want to see an Ik lynch at that point, but I really just can't make up my mind. I think we can all agree that the only reasonable lynchings today will be Toro, jason, or Ik.

Mod

, will you please let us know what will happen in the case of a tie? Will you also please record my

vote: jasonT1981

?

What is your case on Jason? And could you show us your patented scumscale?

[Zachrulez]

I agree with you that we should look for people with BS reasons to drop IK and I think you have the worst. ]Your case on DRK is seems weak when he openly admits that he is hopping to the more popular wagon and considering that they are both ones he already preferred. Your sudden interest in toro and disinterest in IK is just as opportunistic as your original vote on IK. Overall I think you look worst from IK Wagon II.

unvote, vote:ZachRulez

DRK openly admitting to hopping to the more popular wagon doesn't make it any less scummy in my eyes.

Think what you want about my sudden interest in Toro. The way he followed me onto that wagon was just horrible.

You saying I look the worst on the IK wagon while previously scrutinizing Don with a major FOS is hilarious though. Even more interesting than that is that you hadn't really mentioned me as a suspect prior to the above post. (At least not since your previous vote of me which you cast while I was V/LA.)

[Idiotking]

Folks, I don't mean to throw a wrench in discussion, but we've got votes flying in every direction now. WE HAVE GOT TO HAVE A LYNCH BY THE DEADLINE. Given a choice between a lynch and a no-lynch, the lynch is

always

better. So make up your minds, who are we going to lynch?

Unvote

Vote Toro

I'd really rather not do this, as I think Hiphop is still the scummier of the two. But I can be fairly certain that Hiphop is not going to be lynched today (why, I do not know), and Toro has also been extremely scummy.

Self-voting would be anti-town, and I think we could get more info out of Jason on D2, so among the popular lynches, my choice can only be Toro.

[Paradoxombie]

I agree with you that we should look for people with BS reasons to drop IK and I think you have the worst. ]Your case on DRK is seems weak when he openly admits that he is hopping to the more popular wagon and considering that they are both ones he already preferred. Your sudden interest in toro and disinterest in IK is just as opportunistic as your original vote on IK. Overall I think you look worst from IK Wagon II.

unvote, vote:ZachRulez

DRK openly admitting to hopping to the more popular wagon doesn't make it any less scummy in my eyes.

Think what you want about my sudden interest in Toro. The way he followed me onto that wagon was just horrible.

You saying I look the worst on the IK wagon while previously scrutinizing Don with a major FOS is hilarious though. Even more interesting than that is that you hadn't really mentioned me as a suspect prior to the above post. (At least not since your previous vote of me which you cast while I was V/LA.)

We just had a new bandwagon collapse and you admit we should be scrutinizing those who dropped. Don't pretend you're exempt. You admit I did vote you and I think your recent series of opportunistic moves looks like scum trying to dance through a chaotic deadline.

Plus, it would be stupid to vote a claimed power role at this point.

[don_johnson]

stay the course. lynch ik. his actions have been questionable and people are tieing themselves to the wagon one way or the other. would another wagon net info as well? absolutely, but we shouldn't be forgetting that ik has already claimed vanilla. with one pr out in the open and a second speculatively soft claimed, further pushing is a bit ludicrous. just because some of ik's recent actions make him look town, it shouldn't excuse his earlier play. its day 1. players are trying to base suspicions off of how other players are acting surrounding the ik wagon, but unless we lynch ik we will not know whether these suspicions have validity. simply lynching one of several other players will leave ik's play in a questionable light. i am not tunneling here, i am playing to strategy. bottom line:

ik has already claimed vanilla. lets lynch him and move on. we have a good shot here at getting at least one succesful night action resolved. lets not endanger what seems to be a strategic high ground for town.

ik: if you are town you definitely need to consider the possibility of the self hammer.

[Zachrulez]

I agree with you that we should look for people with BS reasons to drop IK and I think you have the worst. ]Your case on DRK is seems weak when he openly admits that he is hopping to the more popular wagon and considering that they are both ones he already preferred. Your sudden interest in toro and disinterest in IK is just as opportunistic as your original vote on IK. Overall I think you look worst from IK Wagon II.

unvote, vote:ZachRulez

DRK openly admitting to hopping to the more popular wagon doesn't make it any less scummy in my eyes.

Think what you want about my sudden interest in Toro. The way he followed me onto that wagon was just horrible.

You saying I look the worst on the IK wagon while previously scrutinizing Don with a major FOS is hilarious though. Even more interesting than that is that you hadn't really mentioned me as a suspect prior to the above post. (At least not since your previous vote of me which you cast while I was V/LA.)

We just had a new bandwagon collapse and you admit we should be scrutinizing those who dropped. Don't pretend you're exempt. You admit I did vote you and I think your recent series of opportunistic moves looks like scum trying to dance through a chaotic deadline.

Plus, it would be stupid to vote a claimed power role at this point.

Who said I'm exempt?

And who dropped from that bandwagon? How likely is DRK to actually be lynched? What about Red Coyote? Toro?, HipHop?

The problem here is that we don't really have any time left and the most viable lynches have already claimed or soft claimed, and anyone else we run up will NOT have a fair chance to claim a role before being lynched.

Do I have that about right?

[don_johnson]

^^ yes, which is why you should be voting for ik.