Open 159 - Lovers Mafia - Game over before 823

[SpyreX]

I am dos confirmin'

[SpyreX]

I agree with the agreement of Incognito.

However, this is my first -lovers- game: I thought it was polygamist.

With no NK and instant win if we hit either of the scum isn't this an easy setup?

[SpyreX]

Wait, yea, this is pretty easy based on the mod rules:

6 - lynch
5 - lynch
4 - Immediately get SOMEONE to two stopping the NL possibility. At that point its 50%

Psssshhh so yea 3 shots to get either member means this could be won easymode coinflippy.

[SpyreX]

-~- I'd like to point out that the scum have the ability to daytalk.

SpyreX, your numbers are off. Town only has the ability to mislynch once. On Day 2, it's do or die since another mislynch would bring the numbers even Steven = 2 townies, 2 mafia = town loss according to the mafia win condition. What made you think otherwise?

Camn, why didn't you confirm as soon as you opened your role PM?

7. Once the majority of votes on a player has been reached, that person will be lynched. All votes and unvotes will not be counted. Everyone but the lynchee is allowed to talk during the Twilight phase. If the majority has not been reached by the deadline, then the person with the most votes will be lynched. You may vote No Lynch if you’d like.

In the event of a tie, whoever received the most votes first is lynched.

Thats why coming out of the gate with an actual vote Day 3 gives it a chance as well. They can't lock a no-lynch IF votes are already there first.

[SpyreX]

Good LORD fast posters. But yea

[SpyreX]

... Ok, then how the hell does that work with #7 which implies exactly the opposite?

[SpyreX]

I, apparently wrongly, assumed the by-line in the mafia PM is the standard "Equal or Greater" because at equal they can force a NL and then simply win.

However since the rules themselves say that isn't the case the third day should be active under exactly what KMD said.

[SpyreX]

Not fishing, just mentioning. I doubt it is modkillable because she didn't quote her own PM. I'm not really sure as I've never came across this before.

Spyrex, I don't care what you say, I'm meta-ing you.

What good does it do to mention what you think is a mod-killable offense if the end result wouldn't be a mod kill?

And... what the hell? I dont think I've PLAYED with you before so I have no idea why you would single me out for that latter statement.

Incog, (I have not read Camn's post at the time I write this), I agree with you on everything except the OMGUS. She seemed to be pretty obviously joking. Anyone who knows Camn could tell that was a joke. But you do have a point about taking 2 hours and then trying to cover it. Honestly though, I'd think if Camn were lying, she'd do a better job of it.. Let's see what she has to say.

You agree with Incog and vote me for being scum with Haylen?

Which actually brings me to a different issue:

In this setup, 2 days is all town gets. Slicey's scum role PM also says outnumber OR equal town. Chances were slim that we were going to get a 3rd Day. Spy, as scum, may have realized that, but asked anyway to look better. Also, with you, Korts, and Camn all being town, what other choices do I have? It's Spy and Haylen. It's gotta be.

So you are saying I realized that but asked to look better? Which mirrors your response to the information given.

So, a whole mess of questions for you:

1.) Considering your pre-game push / agreement with Incog, why is Camn town?
2.) Why is Incog town?
3.) Why is Korts town?
4.) Since I am scum for mirroring your own sentiments, why the vote for me over Haylen?

[SpyreX]

Choo Choo'

\4.) Wait, when did I say you were scum for mirroring something I did? I voted you over Haylen because.. I don't know, actually. I'd be fine voting either of you.

In this setup, 2 days is all town gets. Slicey's scum role PM also says outnumber OR equal town.

Chances were slim that we were going to get a 3rd Day. Spy, as scum, may have realized that, but asked anyway to look better.

Also, with you, Korts, and Camn all being town, what other choices do I have? It's Spy and Haylen. It's gotta be.

Assume A and B are town. C and D are scum.
Now, look at the Mod's rules.
2 town can still lynch 2 scum.

So, actually, sans your "simple process of elimination" that is the ONLY reason you gave for me being scum: that I purposefully did that to look town with the new caveat that "Chances were slim that we were going to get a 3rd day anyway."

Which is extremely bizarre considering you followed and posted the exact same thought process. That is some painful cognitive dissonance.

As an aside:

Right, so I just spent ages writing a nice long post for you guys. Then I clicked the x on my mafia tab in firefox and the damn post has been lost. I'm not happy. I blame Spyrex. I shall explain why later.

Not happy.

If you ctrl-shift-T it should re-open the last window. My firefox for whatever reason will normally keep the text I have written too.

I'm gonna deal with Haylen's madness later. Lets just say thine case beith paper thin.

[SpyreX]

Time for the other side of the coin:

Can you please explain to us how one can believe another to be scum without evidence? Sure, you say you're a vanilla townie. Hypo-town Kmd would know there are two mafia out there, and 3 more town. But he would still have to work out which two of the 5 are scum. And it's too risky to randomly flail around and point fingers saying 'you're scum, you're scum.' In fact, that's a sign of a person being scum.

It also appear as though you are in the early stages of tunnelling me, which is scummy behaviour according to Tarhalindur.

According to him, but not according to you?

If thats not the case, why mention that specifically.

May I ask when? At this stage in the game, no one is obviously town. I am beginning to think you are scum who has decided the easiest people to create a mislynch with were myself, and possibly Spyrex, although I am unsure about his alignment. It is possible that you were bussing him by voting him...

In general, town clearing town is a scary situation for scum. In THIS SETUP, it is absolutely dreadful.

Again, why are you mentioning my name specifically? This is a cascading effect that really bothers me.

It helps clarify things, so I don't make a mistake in a future game. I'm trying to improve here and I think as an experienced player, you should respect my attempts at improving my play.

You're not walkin' like a newbie, or talkin' like one. So I'm sure as hell not treating you like one. Nor, even if that were the case, would "I'm new" be a justification.

I am convinced that you think me and Spyrex would be the easiest to lynch, which is why you're attacking me. You've attacked me more than you have him. How on earth can I convince you I'm town without having you lynch me? That's just ridiculous.

Again. We are not connected. This is not tech in any scenario but triply so in this SETUP.

Go check out my games, you will see I'm always paranoid of being lynched, whether i'm town or scum. For some reason I'm more paranoid as town. Why? Cause the only person you can truly trust in these games is yourself. Town don't know they've got the wrong guy til the flip, see what I mean? No one except yourself knows your alignment, therefore, the only person you can trust is yourself. With scum, it's the same, although you're more worried about your partner betraying you. See what I'm getting at here? I am a naturally paranoid person, it says so on my wiki.

Meta is not a savior. Meta is not a defense. Meta is way too overused.

Yeah, why not? In other games it's fair to suspect more than two players when there is a two player scumteam, why not this one?

BTW why would town need to CONVINCE anybody someone is scum? Obviously, they could try and build a case themselves. Scum convince town someone is scum, town don't convince town. And that to me, is a scumslip.

You'll notice my random caps. This setup has one very, very large difference over other setups coming out of the gate:

To lynch scum, it requires EVERY town player on a single wagon. There is no room for shades of gray. So, if you are town you ABSOLUTELY need to be able to convince people someone else is scum.

Painting that as a "scumslip" is over the top. When you combined it with the repeated pairing of your name and mine in

your own posts

I'm not down.

Vote: Haylen

[SpyreX]

Reading Spyrex's wiki, it appears that he is an uptight git. His opinions clearly show how he would like a game to be played, and since he has many and those opinions are strong, I concluded that he may be quite controlling in games, liking to take the lead. I was able to deduce this, not only from his thoughts on mafia, but also his comments about the games he was in. I think that he doesn't like me commenting on things like this because he wants to be in control of who he is connected to, and at this moment, he would appreciate it if that was no one. Now if he is scum and people believe he is (falsely, might I add) connected to me, then he may get lynched and therefore lose the game for him and his scumbuddy, which is the last thing that he and his partner would want.

I'm not an uptight git. Or, at least I try not to be. Sheesh.

I do have opinions. I do express them. Openly and loudly.

You are right that I want to be in control of who I am connected to especially in this game: and that answer is no one. Connections are going to be way important. Way, way important.

All right so that might slightly reduce the validity of that tell (though in a game like this with Mafia Lovers, I'd only expect the ballsiest of the ballsy scums to self-vote, which still might validate the tell), but you should still unvote.

I do agree it would take some steel juevos to pull that maneuver off generally. HOWEVER, on Page 4? In a lovers game? No, not buying it.

[SpyreX]

I don't really get SpyreX's vote on Haylen. He's claimed to have a problem with Haylen's repeated mentioning of his name in her posts but a) I feel like this was largely prompted by Kmd (who happened to link the two of them together in the first place) and not Haylen, and b) I believe she initially referenced SpyreX in reference to meta because Spy's Wiki page has a reference to believing that meta is basically a waste of time (I happen to disagree). She was basically mentioning that despite what he says, she sees some validity in meta, and she will be looking into his games no matter what he says.

So, SpyreX, why exactly are you placing your vote on Haylen for frequently mentioning your name in her posts when this was initially prompted by Kmd? Shouldn't Kmd be the person you have beef with?

a.) Nope. Haylen started dropping my name in post 40 with that whole "I'm meta-ing you" business which still strikes me as bad news bears. KMD didn't bring forth his awesome theory which I'm going to get to again in a bit until 43.

b.) Instead of simply saying "No, stop trying to join us, there is no connection." She FED this and kept bringing up my name fostering this fake connection which I really dont like.

Can you explain your thinking here? Why does the page number and the set-up type play a role in you thinking that a Haylen hypo-scum could do this in this game as scum and not suffer any real danger? Because I arrived at a different conclusion here.

Lets break it down and I'll try to explain my thought process in entirety:

Premises:

1.) It takes all the town to lynch a scum.
2.) Quicklynches are, generally, very rare.
3.) If a quicklynch actually DOES occur and is wrong, the later votes are suspect - especially the hammer.
4.) This game has two total mislynches.
5.) If one scum is hung, the game is over.

With the above in place under the assumation that Haylen is scum the self-vote to L-1 isn't near as large a threat as it appears:

The players left after the vote (Camn, Icog, Korts) would, by nature be 1 scum and 2 town. The scum has the most vested interest to come to their defense - and this move comes in with built in defenses as you, yourself, have shown. The town in that grouping have another major question: at this point am I confident enough that Haylen is scum to hammer? If they are right, then game set match. However, if they are wrong they KNOW they are setting themselves up for a mislynch the next day for quickhammering town and pushing the game extremely quickly to lylo.

So, no, a page 4 self-vote isn't near as scary as it is.

Further, regardless of if Haylen didn't do this on her own I could see ANY of you three that haven't voted suggesting pulling a maneuver for just this reason.

KMD's in next post.

[SpyreX]

Haylen, didn't I already say I haven't cleared anyone yet? Yes, Camn is my biggest town read, but that could easily change.

In this setup, 2 days is all town gets. Slicey's scum role PM also says outnumber OR equal town. Chances were slim that we were going to get a 3rd Day. Spy, as scum, may have realized that, but asked anyway to look better. Also, with you, Korts, and Camn all being town, what other choices do I have? It's Spy and Haylen. It's gotta be.

1.) She is reacting how she always does as town.
2.) His efforts in pressuring Camn, whether to start discussion or because he actually believes she is scum, look genuine and helpful.
3.) He's reminding me of the game where he went after me out of the gate to get the town going somewhere. He was town there.

Well, I'm only a vanilla, so the most I can give is my opinions and reasons for them.

I believe three players to be town for the reasons I listed earlier. That leaves you and Spy who have yet to convince me you are town. So because I have the most doubts about you and Spy, that's who I think is scum at this point.

And you say that I am tunneling on YOU. Not you and Spy, just YOU. This worries me. It looks like you are paranoid that I am about to get you lynched. That or maybe you realize that your game is over as soon as Spy is lynched. Guys, we have the scum team. Can we lynch them now?

Oh, and you didn't answer my question. Are you vanilla? I think you are a lover with Spy, which would explain the connection. Are you?

I already said what made me think they are town. And actually, the easiest lynches for me to push would probably be, yes, you, due to lack of experience compared to the rest of the players in this game (no offense meant by that at all as you could be a very good player, just not as experienced) and Camn just because of my knowledge of her meta and the way I could easily twist it to make her look scummy. Spy is anything but an easy lynch.

Incog, I haven't cleared anyone. Just gave my early reads.

See the bolded and my huge issue with this whole "town reads are NOT confirmation" doublespeak you have going on.

You said that all you have is your opinions so either your "clearing" IS clearing or it is all claptrap. Which is it?

[SpyreX]

There's no spaces there so thats OBVIOUSLY not me your talking about. Whomever spyrexspyrexspyrexspyrexspyrexspyrexspyrexspyrexspyrexspyrexspyrex is is probably just PISSED right now though.

I'd be on the lookout.

[SpyreX]

Kmd's questioning of me appears as though it is the early stages of tunnelling. His questions only appear to be directed at Haylen and he seems certain that she is scum. This amounts to tunnelling, but because we are only a few pages into the gae, it would not be deep enough to be considered full tunnelling - it is still in the early stages. Also known as Selective Scumhunting, it was said by Tarhalindur that Tunnelling is a scumtell. Tarhalindur is a well respected member of the Mafia Scum community and it is necessary to conclude that he would have the experience and knowlege to for Haylen, herself, to trust his word and tells when she is scumhunting, which is why she believes Kmd's tunnelling is a scumtell.

Why all the qualitative language (appears, seems, amounts).

How in the name of everything is that selective scumhunting?

But the big one is - why the appeal to outside authority? If you think he is tunneling you think he is. What does Tar have to do with any of that?

Do you really want me to express my views on mentioning your name again? The only people I am connected to in this game are the townies, but since I don't know who they are, I don't really want to be connected to anyone. You don't want to be connected to anyone probably because you fear you will be accused of being scum and have the town lynch you, then we'll win because you are probably scum with Kmd.

Do I need to go pick out where you've mentioned me specifically and how that creates a false connection that in a lovers game especially a.) doesn't make sense and b.) is scummy by nature?

I will agree that I do not talk like a townie, I know the theory almost perfectly, still a few things I get muddled here and there though. But if I don't know something, I can easily find out. The walking, however, is an entirely different kettle of fish. My playstyle is...'developing' as Ether put it. I make mistakes, I do stupid things and sometimes I just can't seem to get the hang of it. But, someone else said that's just down to lack of experience. So how you can say my actions don't coincide with that of an experienced player, i have no idea. Only completed 3 games.

I'm not playing the Newbie Card, I have much contempt for the use of the Newbie Card even in newbie games. I'm just using fact to contradict your statement. I have no wish for anyone here to treat me like a newbie, how on earth would that prove that I'm just as good as you lot? It wouldn't, it's counter-productive.

So, you post a giant paragraph about being new but not playing the newbie card?

Further, what statement of mine does any of this contradict?

I am going to use meta. I like meta, and I think it can be worth quite a lot in games. The views on it are obviously subjective so neither can be proven. Basically, you can say what you want about it, you can threaten to build a crap case against me to get me lynched because of it, you can curse and kick and scream all you like, I'm still going to use it. It has been worth quite a lot in my others games, so I am going to continue using it within cases against people regardless of your opinion.

Use it all you want. I'm not a dictator (sadly). However, I will call BS when it is used improperly (which is a majority of the time).

Further... you've talked an awful lot about using meta (mine specifically) but haven't in fact USED it for anything.

No comprende. Rephrase or explain?

Even if you, yourself, didn't think up the hammer-manuever and the scum gain your partner (whom I have to assume wasn't voting for you thus in the subset of Korts, Incog, Camn) sure as hell would have thought of it.

Other short post coming asap.

[SpyreX]

Incog:

Are you voting KMD as a function of being camn's partner or am I missing something?

(there will be more after this is answered)

[SpyreX]

Its not often that I am ready to pounce all over something and then a wall of SENSE rears its ugly head and stops me.

If you're scum I'd eat a hat.

I'd like to see camn's response and/or kmd's as well.

[SpyreX]

You can see Haylen and I? Really?

Vote still is on KMD though?

By god I am tempted to hammer BUT since I'm going to be kind of V/LA this weekend I'll wait and see if anything else happens in this game.

[SpyreX]

Are you implying that if Haylen's scum, Incog is her partner? Please make clear statements instead of going with implicit assumptions.

I'm up to Haylen's "SpyreX" post and getting mentally exhausted. I'll have another post up later this evening.

If Haylen is scum do I think Incog has a higher chance to be her partner? Yes, for the reasons I stated and the fact he was the one that came to the defense. However, that could just be part of the games within games - ultimately haylen IS scummy whereas Incog could only be considered scummy by association.

Does that mean that her partner could be one of (Korts, Camn) as well? Yes.

The only ones that don't make ANY sense for Haylen's partner are myself and KMD. Which is the one reason why I'm iffy on this wagon some.

[SpyreX]

You can't be for real, can you?

[SpyreX]

@Haylen:

So the fact I posted on this page directly continuing a train of thought means I'm:
Spyrex. Lurking. Posting elsewhere. Much as can manage.

Seriously I mean choo choo. (As an aside post 117 still misses you and wishes you would talk to it.)

@Camn:

Scum ARE easier targets than town, in my experience.
And Im not fishing for any wagon... I am encouraging you to get in the game!

If you believe the statement you made does that not mean that under your premise that KMD would be scum?

If so, why the hesitation there?

@Korts:

May I ask when? At this stage in the game, no one is obviously town. I am beginning to think you are scum who has decided the easiest people to create a mislynch with were myself, and possibly Spyrex, although I am unsure about his alignment. It is possible that you were bussing him by voting him...

To be quite honest I don't think Kmd's evidence to support his reads of Incog/camn/me are convincing, since I definitely have a different read of my own play as compared to my play in True Love. I'm getting the feeling he's using his gut as an excuse not to make real efforts at scumhunting. Not to mention me bein uncomfortable with him going for town reads instead of scum reads--process of elimination is a bad way to hunt when the people you're eliminating from your list of suspects are not confirmed town by any mechanic.

The devil is in the details.

You went: there can not be "confirmed" town and thus process of elimination is a poor process for finding scum.

Haylen went: Kmd is scum and is picking on SpyreX and I as easy mislynches.

Now, as I have nothing to do with Haylen you can see why the latter is an instant ding.

Further, you explained your stance whereas the other isn't. and everything else. And the overblown "defense" and now the calling me a lurker of all things.

Haylen is scum. Fo sho'

[SpyreX]

Instead of being snappy I may just take your advice until something happens.

That doesn't change the fact that the above has nothing to do with anything.

[SpyreX]

What I'm saying has nothing to do with anything but what you said.

The logic follows thusly:

Premise: Scum are easier lynches.
Fact: KMD was at L-1
Logical Conclusion: Camn, if not scum would think KMD IS scum because scum are easier lynches.

Thats not what happened thus my question.

[SpyreX]

Hah you hath been snipe'd and now your PS makes NO SENSE MUHAHAHA

But you are right and I'm gonna try and chillax because mad <3's to my peeps yo'

[SpyreX]

Welcome back Haylen. 117 is left out in the cold, scraping against the door, hoping that you'll welcome it in and give it a home.

[SpyreX]

In MOST games it is nothing, in this game, I think it would be weird if we DIDN'T buddy up!

...Que?

- The qualitive language is because I don't know for sure who is scum.
- That is selective scumhunting a) because I say it is and I'm right. b) because it obv is, he was focusing on me. And since there werent many pages then, I said it was early selective scumhunting, meaning he was preparing to selective scumhunt me.
- I was using Tar because I was taught the correct way to form a proper argument is to use the views of people in authority to support
- Don't get me started on the apparent 'making a connection' thing again. I have not tried to make a connection with either of us. Mentioning 2 names in a sentence does not form connections, it just makes it unnecessary to write the same thing out again with a different persons name.
- I have never played the newbie. Have no intentions of playing the newbie card and using said newbie card would defeat the whole purpose of proving myself. Idiotic point.

- Or, as I think, it is a method to distance yourself from a mislynch by showing lack of strength in conviction.
- Selective scumhunting would be in a multi-scum game hunting after scum A and not ever looking for scum B (with the implication that you, therefore are a member of scum B). In a normal setup it is harder to do but could still be possible (looking for goon connections to save your power roles) but... in this setup one scum IS 100% a+ exactly the same value as another. So, in essence you are saying it is "selective" because he has selected you.
- I'm not sure what to say except that an appeal to authority is a fallacy and I'm not sure how you connected that the appeal to someone else was how to structure a case. All this does is, again, serve as a method of distance from a mislynch.
- If need be I'll deal with this later.
- Yes, this would be an idiotic point

except for the fact

you posted that:

I will agree that I do not talk like a townie, I know the theory almost perfectly, still a few things I get muddled here and there though. But if I don't know something, I can easily find out. The walking, however, is an entirely different kettle of fish. My playstyle is...'developing' as Ether put it. I make mistakes, I do stupid things and sometimes I just can't seem to get the hang of it. But, someone else said that's just down to lack of experience. So how you can say my actions don't coincide with that of an experienced player, i have no idea. Only completed 3 games.

I'm not playing the Newbie Card, I have much contempt for the use of the Newbie Card even in newbie games. I'm just using fact to contradict your statement. I have no wish for anyone here to treat me like a newbie, how on earth would that prove that I'm just as good as you lot? It wouldn't, it's counter-productive.

Which, no matter how many disclaimers you want to put on it, IS saying "I'm new hence I will make mistakes." as justification for said mistakes. Which could be fine - except for the fact I think its bunk. Which I will get to hence:

So you're saying I'm stupid?
If I wanted to come up with a good scum tactic, I would've done it myself. But I wouldn't self vote. I didn't self vote as godfather in the Vengeful I was in and so I wouldn't self vote here if I was scum. The consequence would've affectively been the same here. I'm into self preservation.

Far from it. In fact, damn near the polar opposite. I think you are actively and purposefully downplaying your abilities to use a shield for scummy behavior - hence the "I make mistakes".

There is a reason I said Even if you didn't think it up your partner would. From the nature of your play I find it totally plausible that you thought it up yourself.

You're not pinging scum because you're new. You're pinging scum because you're scum.

[SpyreX]

The only problem is that I think real hard that Haylen dost be scum.

Riddle me this in detail: why is Haylen town?

[SpyreX]

@Haylen

What statistics?

I've been pretty clear why I think you're scum.

@Incog

Korts seems to have absolute minimal contact with Haylen. Which could be a connection.
Further, there is still the connection between the two of you. However:

@Camn

WHAT?

[SpyreX]

Fine a summary of the things I've questioned you about:

1.) The "I'm metaing SpyreX" and then repeated use of me in a connection with your fight with KMD.
2.) The appeal to authority to push a case on KMD based on "tunnelling".
3.) The "I'm new" defense for mistakes
---3.a) The denial of the above.
4.) Meta as a defense for your actions via KMD.
5.) Meta as a defense for your actions via Camn.
6.) The KMD "scumslip" when in this game what he said is 120% accurate.
7.) The self-vote early enough to allow you to slide by and gain "town cred".
8.) The "spyrexspyrex" explosion as an attempt to build a strawman out of what I was saying to attack.
9.) Your massive amount of qualitative language in regards to KMD.
10.) Accusing me of lurking when I posted on the same page.

However I've got a new serious business question:

@Camn:

Just cuz a hypo-scum-haylen has yet to fold doesn't mean she won't!
And my not agreeing with her statements AS YET outweighs my town-reaction-read.

Am I getting MORE convinced she is scum? Not really. Am I SATISFIED as to her townieness? Not at all.
Thus, my vote stands.

That said, I admit it.. I am not convinced she is town OR scum.
But I get a scummier read from her than from You, KMD or Spyrex.

That is quite the change in opinion in a short amount of posting.

@Incog / Camn:

You have postulated that both the scum are now in the group of (Camn, KMD, SpyreX).

Camn has agreed to this as being useful information which means that the only logical pairing would be SpyreX / KMD in camn's mind.

However, I would have been willing to hammer KMD. In fact, I still would given the amount of lurking and no answer to my questions about his weird stance on "clearing townies".

So, I'm going to lay this out:

There is a scum between KMD and Haylen. However, I'd eat all the hats if they are scum together.

I'm leaning real hard at a Haylen/Korts team. It could be Haylen/Incog but Incog is the only zoom zoom town I see thus far.

If its KMD it HAS to be KMD/Camn.

[SpyreX]

Grrr I hate quote blocks like that:

1.) You mentioned me specifically. That is the issue. Camn's wiki says "don't bother to meta me" yet there was no "I'm going to meta deal with it Camn." You fostered a link that shouldn't and doesn't exist. This was augmented in your arguments with KMD unnecessarily.

2.) If that is true that doesn't change that inherent in that plan there is an appeal to authority - especially in a subjective enviornment like this. What does Tar have to do with anything except be an outside source to look back on if you are wrong?

3.) See the end of your post 14, mid post 20, post 51.

4 & 5.) Any reference to "see I did this in X game." I'm not going to hunt them all down. Which leads us to:

6.) It is an undeniable fact that every town player has to be on a wagon to lynch scum in this setup. A function of that would be being able to convince other said town members of your case. This is not the case in normal games sans-lylo. Thus, when KMD said you have to be able to persuade town members it is a true statement* and I have no idea how it can be portrayed as a scumslip.

*This does not mean that KMD is town, but the statement is still factual.

7.) AtE

8.) AtE

9.) Hypothetical qualitative language is still qualitative language and if that is the essay form of what you were saying it is implied in your statements.

10.) ... I what? See post 153. THEN see post 162. Your little snipe didn't make sense then and this is just simply mind blowing.

[SpyreX]

All that and that is what you have to say?

"I was just frustrated that was totally not a scum maneuver / attempt to setup a gigantic strawman" IS an AtE.

[SpyreX]

I mentioned you specifically because I was aiming a point at you, your wiki suggests very strong feelings about meta so I was putting across the point that I'm going do it whether you like it or not.

And my contention has been from the very beginning: what rationale is there to do that? How could I stop you if I wanted to?

Calling me out specifically is creating a tie.

What do you mean by 'it was augmented in your arguements with Kmd'? Everything (with the exception of a few posts) I say necessarilly, I don't pull up loads of crap out of nowhere.

We'll detail this in a second.

2) It is true. Nobody can make up P.E.E, other synonyms for it are P.E.G.E.X. which means exactly the same thing. I don't plan on looking back on Tar because I know I'm right,

and I was using his standard tells to support my idea.

Is it not necessary to reference where you have gotton your information?

Bolded is the issue. If you know you are right you know you are right. If you are not sure (or are trying to have an escape if you are wrong) you would use external support.

Which is what you did.

3) Cant you post links?

post 14 - Not me using being unexperienced as an excuse to make mistakes. Somebody wanted an explanation and I gave it.

post 20 - Again, it's an explanation.

post 51 - Um...I actually said I wasn't a newbie anymore and invited you to attack me for all the mistakes I make.

Now tell me, in which of these posts did I actually use it as a defence for doing something scummy? Your point is invalid.

So, above you say you don't pull loads of crap out of nowhere - which I'm going to have to assume means that every post is valid and for moving the game forward.

So, with that said what would the above be? What would you be explaining?

Scummy behavior?

If so, then what would saying any of the above (especially 14 and 20) be?

My little snipe? You are really beginning to get on my nerves now. I don't snipe. Not in my nature. Look at the amount of time between those posts, and explain why you were lurking around the site.

Well sure lets go ahead and do that:

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject: 153
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:53 pm Post subject: 162

So, yes apparently I was lurking for not posting for less than 4 hours.

And if you're trying to say that:

Spyrex. Lurking. Posting elsewhere. Much as can manage.

Isn't a snipe then well then I dont know what to say.

[SpyreX]

SpyreX, I think you're setting up a false dilemma with the whole "calling me out specifically in the beginning is creating a tie" thing. I see the point you're getting at, but I don't see why this would cause you so much concern -- do you really think the player group in this game would be stupid enough to assume that just because Haylen mentions your name out of nowhere, if she's scum, she's most likely scum with you? I'm pretty sure everyone here is aware that scum interactions are oftentimes less transparent than that.

The statement itself is concerning. The reactions to my questioning it were truly the bizarre part though.

Ultimately in this setup something transparent like that could work better than in others with the aforementioned everyone needs to pull it together to nail scum.

My only issue with camn is that I still think haylen is a better choice and I dont see a camn-haylen team making any sense.

[SpyreX]

Um...I think I made it clear in those posts, I was explaining that I'm determined to show everyone I'm not an idiot. I wouldn't call that scummy, I'd call it something that needed to be said. And I've just been told I have nothing to prove to anyone...so meh...

Did anyone call you an idiot?

That was not a snipe. I was unable to write more at that time for personal reasons, I don't feel the need to explain to you. You're walking a line there, I am warning you nicely not to continue.

I'm walking a line for what? I'm not asking about your personal reasons - if you have them they are yours and they are personal.

That doesn't change the fact it was a 1 line statement that I still can't figure out what you are basing it on. I call that a snipe.

That does lead into:

I do believe Spyrex was lurking and still is. At that time, I would not have posted unless I deemed it absolutely necessary cause I was V/LA.

Ok, quantify lurking for me. I'm sure not getting it. I dont lurk in any of my games.

So, I want what you think is lurking spelled out and how it applies to ME and not to Korts and KMD who have both been far less active.

[SpyreX]

I'm always online. That doesn't mean I'm here.

4 hours != lurking unless maybe it was < 4 hours to deadline and I was inconspicuously absent.

[SpyreX]

The only time I ever have to reopen the site is when my computer resets or firefox crashes. Otherwise I'm always logged in. So, yea, funny that.

[SpyreX]

Actually, now that I think about it: somewhere in this whole lurker business you are lying:

That time you were V/LA for personal reasons.
The reason why you only posted one line was because you didn't have enough time to post more.
You have said that it logs for inactivity after 30 minutes.
You said I was lurking those 4 hours.

So, that means you would have had to be sitting there watching me (and not posting which would be "lurking" by your own measure) to make sure I didn't log off for inactivity AND this revelation was enough to warrant posting that I was lurking in that time. Which, of course, would have meant you had enough time to post more than one line.

So riddle me this: if you were V/LA and didn't have time to post more than one line based on what you've said how could I be lurking?

As an aside I don't even think I get logged out when I reset - I'm pretty sure firefox reopens the page with me already logged in so I really dont know what to make of that.

[SpyreX]

I think I'm going to go V/LA for a few days, for reasons I don't want to talk about in thread. I'm doing this across the whole site, wont be posting anywhere. (might be able to manage a bit of GD if feeling better though). So sorry. I could be gone anywhere from 1 day to 3. Just depends.

Spyrex. Lurking. Posting elsewhere. Much as can manage.

Can. Am. Now I'm off again.

Haylen: Not scum.
Haylen: V/LA
Haylen: Going now.

So V/LA meant "watching my games instead of playing in my games" apparently if you were there the whole time watching my access on it.

It's not lurking if you had reasons.

It's not V/LA if you are there. And it IS still lurking even if you have reasons - just not classic scum hiding not wanting to play the game lurking.

I've been called many things, but not a lurker. I'm a little offended at the idea.

[SpyreX]

I'm not - in fact I'm trying to say that your definitional lurking doesn't apply because it would apply to you as well. Which makes no sense.

Look, I think you're scum. However this is bordering on outside the game bad mojo and I want to make it clear:

I've got no problems with you. I think you are fun to play with and I absolutely am not trying to intrude on your personal life.

Lets take a step back from this, alright?

[SpyreX]

I think we were both forgetting its supposed to be fun. <3

[SpyreX]

I'm going to have to look but is there ever any real reference of KMD/Camn suspecting each other at all?

Or has it been this all along?

[SpyreX]

You've got to be kidding me.

Well, it looks like its time for MEGALIST:

Korts/Incog
Korts/KMD
Korts/SpyreX
Korts/Camn
Incog/KMD
Incog/SpyreX
Incog/Camn
KMD/SpyreX
KMD/Camn
SpyreX/Camn

That is all the possible pairings we have.

So lets cut this pig some:

1.) I am town.
2.) SUPER REVELATION TIME: Incog is town. I'd eat das hats if he's not. The only scenario that made sense to me was Incog/Haylen and with that gone I am confident in this assumption.

So, the new list:

Korts/Camn
Korts/KMD
KMD/Camn

And the tricky bit - in order of likelyhood:

KMD/Camn - Self explanatory. I'm going to give this one a reread to make sure but I don't think they have said anything negative about each other the whole game despite KMD's absence.

Korts/Camn - The lynch makes this a whole lot more plausible. Surprisingly (not really) MY issues with Haylen were a talking point with this whole business. The only thing that gets me is their positioning on the lynch.

Korts/KMD - Process of elimination says this is last. The only real interaction was early on with a Korts vote that sat there.

So at this point:

FoS: Camn

*Notice the use of FoS because we better not be throwing down votes with 3 to lynch.

[SpyreX]

I have absolutely no idea what to make of this.

The fact that everyone sans Camn has chimed in saying they'd support camn scares the hell out of me.

[SpyreX]

I'm very, very curious as to KMD's answer to Incog's question above.

[SpyreX]

...

I am absolutely fine with a KMD/Camn lynch for that business right there.

Just to make it clear:

FoS: KMD

[SpyreX]

I raise you: Why would we vote right now when we're scant into day 2 and a misplaced town vote could (sans likelyhood) cost the game?

Aint nothing wrong with some discussion, but if you really want to push the issue after this last business I'm down.

[SpyreX]

Unvote, Vote: KMD

Busted scum.

[SpyreX]

Swish. First scum win what what!

[SpyreX]

And this is why we dont vote at lylo sheesh.

Incog you played a great game. No way in hell was I going to even pretend to push for you after Haylen went down.

I'm real glad Camn and KMD are naturally buddyish (which I normally would have been too) which helped a bit.

Haylen: <3. I had to push on someone and hard. Just happened to be you.

[SpyreX]

Yea I dont think anyone was REALLY suspicious of you Incog.

Great game Korts. High fives all around.

Now, I'm away to relish and be angry that "View your posts" isn't working which makes my games REAL hard to keep up with.

[SpyreX]

Actually, I think when I saw she did that I swore outloud.

Damage control on that was going to be the game, one way or another. It was very, very scary.