Mafia 93 - A Roccisi Summer - Over!

[ekiM]

Ah, this game started.

Hi guys. I am a alt. Feel free to start the guessing game.

Attention whore alert.

Vote Howard Roark

, for his architectural stylings are unorthodox and illegitimate. Also, bandwagon!

[ekiM]

I count 22 players alive which makes 12 for a lynch.

Mod: Could we get that info in future votecounts, pretty please?

I'm GMT+1, one hour behind TDC and five hours ahead of the eastern seaboard of the United States of America. So I'm one of those who'll be waking up to five pages of stuff to go through.

re: OGB. People typically use alt accounts because they want to be able to escape their meta and have an anonymous game where the usual perceptions of them don't apply. Using an alt so you can say "Hai guys, guess who I am??" is sheer wankery and actually fairly pitiful. That said, if OGB can pull his finger out and play in an acceptably pro-town manner, that's fine. If it he continues to play as if he's joined the game just to screw about then he can go hang, whoever he is. Can't allow scum to hide behind the "LOL IM A VI!!!" façade.

People should definitely stop trying to guess who OGB is or coax it out of him. It is IRRELEVANT, and discussion of it is an anti-town distraction.

Seraphim asking for reasons for votes feels weird. He then jumps on the OGB bandwagon (a very easy bandwagon, to be sure). "The question was intentionally loaded to provoke reactions." --- Seraphim, if you're town then please don't try and provoke the reaction that you're scum. "rofl is probably town" --- weird to say that this early. As far as I can tell, rofl is playing the way he always does.

Caboose following the policy vote on alvinz is weak sauce.

Oh lordy, Mufasa made an empty first post and claimed in his second post. Note that Jack-of-all-Trades was given as an example role on page 1. This defuses the "how would he know his rolename" line of thought, but it does make it quite possible he just copied the whole claim from there. Apparently this guy's meta is "anti-town fool", even to the extent of false-claiming as town.

Now, Mufasa has claimed to be a JoAT without the vig. That's awfully convenient, when vig is the ability that is most easy to verify when directed by town, don't you think?

Mufasa

: Please state precisely what 1-shot actions you do have.

I am claiming now to give the town two free lynches to try to get scum. by claiming now I will hopefully draw a night kill tonight and use my doctor ability then we will have another day tm to have another go at a lynch. I also have two more abilities including roleblocking.

From page 1:

Doctor: Each night you can protect

another player

. You are only able to prevent a single kill attempt per night.

You can't protect yourself. Wouldn't you have read that?

Bah, I seem much of this ground has already been trodden. Conclusions: he might be stupid lying scum, stupid truthful town, or stupid lying town. If he's truthful then he's essentially useless to us now. Way to go. We might be able to get a protect or a cop out of him, but if he's roleblocked he doesn't get to use it again a different night. And he might just be lying scum. And he's useless to the town either way. What to do, what to do?

These players have not yet posted: TheAdmiral, tubby216, darkdude, inhimshallibe, PopularTajo, Skitzer

Mod: Can you prod those guys? There was no message telling me the game started, I nearly missed it. Thanks.

These players have posted but have posted nothing useful: OGB, mufasa, Mixologist, HowardRoark, alvinz95.

Vote: OozingGolfBall

: Hi, post some useful comments on the game or die. Thanks.

[ekiM]

I'd love to hear some reasons why I'm scum besides you pile of wifom that is your misrep of my first post.

• Your first post is a ridiculously anti-town distraction.
  
• Your second post is void.
  
• Your third post is a ridiculously anti-town continuation of what you started in post one.
  
• Your fourth post is purely reflexive and defensive. It also makes no sense whatsoever. Trying to start a "guess the alt" game is blatantly anti-town. Pointing that out doesn't involve any misrepresentation or WIFOM.
  
• You haven't done a single thing pro-town after six pages and four posts. Not one thing.

darkdude - is that really all you have after six pages?

[ekiM]

Mod: VC is slightly in error, tubby216 was voted BY HowardRoark, he didn't vote FOR him. tubby hasn't posted yet.

[ekiM]

Seraphim - If it's pretty clear what his abilities are, how is it suspicious to ask him to restate what he has already said for clarity? How would that make him more useless?

Why are you unvoting your main suspect? How is pressuring your main suspect with 5 votes a bad thing?

And what kind of tactic is making yourself look intentionally scummy? Seriously.

[ekiM]

It's more than five votes now, I'm sure. And pressure isn't going to help in this situation as it is. Pressure doesn't help when deciding whether or not to lynch someone...pressure is getting someone to claim or getting them to post content. If you can demonstrate a need for pressure on Mufasa at this time, point it out and I will place my vote back in his direction.

It was five votes. Not paying attention? Then why were you worried?

Pressure isn't going to hurt in this situation, is it? I find it odd that you're trying to say that voting for your main suspect is not an appropriate use of your vote. What?

And what kind of tactic is making yourself look intentionally scummy? Seriously.

A tactic that has worked in the past and continues to work wonders. The early pressure is worth the reads I can get. I can be very, very deadly in LYOL if I can get my early game reads.

Sorry mang, pretty sure that early game reads aren't worth a bucket of spit compared to what comes later. As town, drawing suspicion to yourself by acting anti-town way outweighs the benefit of the reads you get in response. You make yourself a suspect when you shouldn't be, and distract townies from the real bad guys. Not. Worth it.

Skitzer --- *facepalm*. That is all.

Caboose following the policy vote on alvinz is weak sauce.

It's not like I don't have a reason.

So it is a policy vote then? Please make up your mind.

No, it's not a policy vote. It's a pressure vote. But it's failing since no one is wagoning.

Hint: If you tell someone "I am voting you for pressure to see if you slip up", they aren't going to feel pressured at all. Your vote isn't credible, which makes it useless. Placing useless votes is anti-town.

@ekiM: Did you know the reference in my username, or was it after looking at my wiki and Google-ing?

Yes.

ekiM's post 133 calling for prods and expecting more from those of us who have only posted once is just silly.

No. Several people hadn't seen the game had started, asking for them to be prodded is sensible. And pointing out people who no pro-town contribution helps stop them slipping under the radar.

V/LA 22-29 MAY 2009

That's nearly half of day one. :\

darkdude --- You've made two posts, and both of them have been defending OGB and Mufasa. That's not good enough.

Hey guys, let's not lynch Mufasa today, for his lynch would not be very informative. If we have a vig they can kill him tonight. Otherwise, I'd be happy to see him strung up tomorrow.

Still very happy with my vote on OGB, but Seraphim or skitzer look like good lynches, too.

[ekiM]

I seriously don't understand how I could be scum, or why you would lynch a townie when you know pretty damn well is a townie.

What don't you understand? We can't see your role pm, and you aren't allowed to show us it, so we have no way to verify that you're not simply lying. We don't know that you're a townie. Various considerations make it seem more likely than not that you are town, but acting like you're confirmed is inane.

I really believe that at least one of the people that are for a vig on me today are scum

If you're a JoAT you've compromised your role to the point of uselessness by claiming. It's also pretty clear that you're not, as a player, capable of scumhunting. If you're a townie, you're useless.

The other possibility is that you're scum.

Someone who is either useless or scum is an excellent vig target.

I believe that Skitzer/Sera are scum. hmm S for Scum haha. vote for sera

OK, I take it all back, this convinces me that you are pro-town and an excellent scum hunter.

[ekiM]

EBWOP: For "pro-town and an excellent scum hunter" read "completely useless".

[ekiM]

EkiM: I wasn't worried. Mufasa was going to have no lack of votes sO I decided to pressure another player instead who is another lead of possible scum. Why are so intent on seeing Mufasa lynched so early in the game?

That's a nice explanation except that it's false. In 151 you asked a couple of people weak questions and unvoted mufasa saying "I don't like the speed of this wagon". 156 was defense. In 181 You voted skitzer, thanking rofl for giving you a target. So no, you didn't unvote Mufasa to pressure another player. Why lie?

Why are so intent on seeing Mufasa lynched so early in the game?

If I am intent on seeing Mufasa lynched, why am I advocating that we don't lynch him?

Sorry mang, pretty sure that early game reads aren't worth a bucket of spit compared to what comes later. As town, drawing suspicion to yourself by acting anti-town way outweighs the benefit of the reads you get in response. You make yourself a suspect when you shouldn't be, and distract townies from the real bad guys. Not. Worth it.

Says you. This is how I play as town. Later in the game, you'll see how dangerous I can be.

Look at this guy:

There is always a reason for my madness, I love to see peoples reactions and can pretty much get a good tell for them on how they react to my gameplay.

Can you see why Mufasa's claim that he gets useful reactions from his wildly anti-town behavior doesn't justify it? Well, the same logic goes for you.

You may be the more retarded than me, wow you level of comprehension in that last statement was next to none. Seriously look at your pm and look at the examples they don't state much of an ability.

Nice ad hom.

Unvote; Vote: Mufasa

Too much jumpiness in your posts.

Yep, OGB still needs a lynch.

From what I have gathered certain players who look at ways to lynch/vig me seem to pop out as scum, and i believe Skitzer's whole statement which I damned him for earlier was very scummy as well. I believe Sera pushing the backpeddle on me when I am justifying my actions based on your questions is rediculous as well.

People are suggesting that you die because you made a strong anti-town move. Repeating what other people have said about other players doesn't help.

I doubt OGB is scum because scum would try to use the alt account to their advantage.

Complete WIFOM.

Since when isn't there WIFOM? I'm trying to guess the WIFOM layer here, and it seem to me it's more likely he's town.

Hey, darkdude, start scumhunting! Thanks!

The oh-so-important random phase is "interrupted" by ogb claiming he is an alt. For some reason this makes him obvscum according to seraphim and rofl and others. I tend to disagree.

At worst he is being slightly unhelpful. Whoever said he is trying to distract the town from scum hunting is ridiculous as its rather easy to attempt a guess at who he's and alt of/ignore him altogether and hunt scum at the same time. Anyone who can't do a simple multitasking assignment like this should probably quit the game mafia for good.

How pro-town do you feel that OGB is now that you've read the whole thread?

Rofl says:

ok, seraphim is plunging down the town charts and heading very quickly towards scum territory.

which is a close relative to the examples that axelrod was talking about before.

Essentially some reasoning would be nice.

Seraphim's post in close proximity to rofl's is pretty self-explanatorialy scummy.

Still happy with an OGB lynch. Would also vote for Skitzer, darkdude, and Seraphim.

Anyone keeping their vote on Mufasa: please explain why you think he would be a good lynch for today. How informative would his lynch be? How likely do you think it is that we have a vig? Do you think Mufasa would make a better vig kill than a lynch?

[ekiM]

Anyone keeping their vote on Mufasa: please explain why you think he would be a good lynch for today. How informative would his lynch be? How likely do you think it is that we have a vig? Do you think Mufasa would make a better vig kill than a lynch?

I don't see the functional difference between a vig kill and a lynch. In terms of information, this argument right now is generating information. How informative a Day is depends on how often people post, how often they include original insights, and how long it takes, not who dies.

I think taking someone all the way up to a lynch generates a lot of information because if a lynch is actually a realistic prospect then people have to take firmer stances. When someone is at 3 votes, someone putting the fourth vote on doesn't make much difference, and you can't read all that much into their action. Someone willing to put someone to L-1 or to hammer is taking a stronger stance and giving more useful information about what they're willing to do. Similarly if people start hopping off or on when a wagon heats up, that's informative.

If someone is vigged, it's the decision of one guy. There's no bandwagon-to-lynch, so it's harder to tell just how firm people's positions on someone were.

With someone like Mufasa who makes a dumb and anti-town move but has a meta of doing so, it's genuinely hard to tell whether he's town or scum. Taking a stance one way or the other is really mostly gut, and can be explained easily either way. Nobody is going to stand up and defend him, so there's nothing much to be learned either way from whether people say that they think we may as well lynch him today, or that we have bigger fish to fry.

Epic fail at scumhunting.

Before you insult people, perhaps you could try scumhunting yourself? Seeing as, you know, your few posts only outline people as stupid, not scum. Now that you've outed the stupid people, maybe you can out the scum too?

Now that you've chastised someone to demonstrate your pro-town bona fides, maybe you could address what's at the top of post 230?

Anyone keeping their vote on Mufasa: please explain why you think he would be a good lynch for today. How informative would his lynch be? How likely do you think it is that we have a vig? Do you think Mufasa would make a better vig kill than a lynch?

Mufasa is the town's best candidate for a lynch today. He claimed when not under pressure. He can't keep his claim straight. He's clearly not a JOAT. When someone lies about their role, they are scum. If they are town and lying about it, they are helping the scum by risking a counterclaim by a real townie. His lynch would give mediocre information, but we're not lynching him for information. We're lynching him to win. No idea how likely it is we have a vig. I'm not interested in letting him live tonight and hoping we have a vig and hoping the vig kills him.

If someone lies about their role like Mufasa did, they're either stupid town or scum, agreed. I don't think counter claims are relevant here. If we're not lynching him for information, we can lynch him any day. I'd rather try for an informative lynch today and see if he gets killed tonight. I also think OGB's play is actually far less explicable as town coming from someone who is (presumably) somewhat experienced, than Mufasa's coming from someone who is a known VI. So I think OGB is scummier too.

[Charter, ]please stop fence sitting and pick a side.

I think he did, dude.

This is a bit of a loaded question. I think it is fairly obvious that ogb has not been pro-town, however I don't think he's necessarily been anymore anti-town than, say, a lurker.

Basically I think there was an overreaction initially to his first couple of posts, although I do admit that his continued unhelpfullness does not make him look good

OK. I think active lurking is probably worse than lurking though, especially when done after being specifically called out for not contributing.

Whoever said he is trying to distract the town from scum hunting is ridiculous as its rather easy to attempt a guess at who he's and alt of/ignore him altogether and hunt scum at the same time.

I said this. I don't think it's ridiculous at all when all OGB is interested in doing is getting people to guess who he is. Playing guess the alt detracts from scumhunting, and I'd much rather quash OGB's mess before someone takes his bait.

You aren't the only one who has said it, so don't think I am trying to focus on you. But since you responded:

1. that's not "all ogb is intested in". Let's put it in to a bit of perspective: he asked a question that admittedly wasn't all that relevant to the game, but did so in the

random voting phase

, a period of the game that is debatable in regards to how helpful it is in determining scum from town.

He is still yet to show interest in scumhunting.

2. how does it detract from scum hunting when you easily still scum hunt and just ignore his question?

Sadly, not everyone is as level headed and focussed as might be desired.

3. furthermore who are these other people that you are trying to protect from "taking his bait". Do you think anyone in this game actually has taken his bait and has been so caught up in guessing who he is that they have been

completely unable

to scum hunt and therefore have put the town in a far worse position? Has anything even slightly resembling this happened?

It's a bit hard to say what would've happened in the counter-factual where his question wasn't immediately called out by several people as being a distraction and not worth addressing. Posts 32, 33, 34, 36, 39, 43, 169, 171 were discussing who OGB is. I think if unchallenged it could've been worse.

as I said before I think mufasa is lying and calls for him to be vigged are a bit silly given that we don't know whether there is a vig or not and furthermore he may very well be scum.

I don't think he's a particularly informative lynch today, because he's such an easy target. There's a reasonable chance there's a vig in a game this size. What's the problem with him being vigged if he is scum?

The claim is confirmable, a likely NK target, and has been executed by a newbie with precedent of, um, let's call it unorthodox play as town; Seraphim's vote, in this context, is opportunistic and scummy.

How is the claim of 1-shot doc, JK, RB confirmable? Is he really that tempting a NK target for scum? His abilities aren't exactly threatening to them and he's destroyed any credibility he had to act as a scumhunter.

PEOPLE CALLING FOR A MUFASA LYNCH/VIG ARE SCUMMY. I'll compile a list of these people later.

Could you explain why?

[ekiM]

Well, I must say I'm incredibly frightened by how ekiM just responded to about everything directed at me. Very frightened.

What do you mean? I responded to the stuff The Admiral said because it was originally directed to "whoever said [OGB] is trying to distract the town from scum hunting".

By the way Mufasa didn't claim cop. He claimed to have 1-shot Doc, JK, RB. Which is even less confirmable and useful.

[ekiM]

My abilities only say Doctor Jailkeeper and Roleblocker each a one-shot

[ekiM]

How are they confirmable? How likely is a player like Mufasa to find the right target and time to use those abilities in a game this size?

[ekiM]

ekiM is right when he says "How likely is a player like Mufasa to find the right target and time to use those abilities in a game this size?" Add on top of that the fact that Mufasa has given zero opinion on everyone, and who knows what damage he will do. Even if we can confirm Mufasa, so what? He is not doing anything to help the town win.

There is zero reason to let Mufasa live past day one. I do not understand how this is a difficult concept to grasp. If you do not see the light, please ask me your questions and I will clarify.

He's plausibly town and there are some bona fide scumbags knocking around right now. edit: but I see you saw the light

ekiM - good analyzer. Im a little bit biased to be extra careful with him since he just came up scum in a game where I pegeed him as obv town. 230 is good posting. But I dont understand his position regarding Mufasa. Clarify.

From that, a simple application of the gambler's fallacy shows that I am town.

My position on Mufasa: he might be town and he might be scum. Not a good lynch today because non-informative. A good vig candidate because he's compromised town or scum. Lynch an obv scumbag today and see if Mufasa is still here in the morning.

OozingGolfBall - I dont get the hate OGB is getting for asking to guess his alt. Damn, it was random stage. I can buy some of the agressive players here will be over him, though. This lynch is not as optymal as you imply to be. How is he different than other "quality" posters? Ill analyse his wagon later.

It's been a week and he has posted zero content, despite being around on the site and looking at the game. What's not to hate?

OK. I think active lurking is probably worse than lurking though, especially when done after being specifically called out for not contributing.

Fair enough. Just for the record what is your definition of active lurking as there are a few different interpretations.

OGB is active on the site and makes occasional posts in this thread but has no opinions on anything whatsoever. He's active lurking.

He is still yet to show interest in scumhunting.

There are others though. Darkdude comes to mind.

Yes, absolutely. Both would be good lynches.

It's a bit hard to say what would've happened in the counter-factual where his question wasn't immediately called out by several people as being a distraction and not worth addressing. Posts 32, 33, 34, 36, 39, 43, 169, 171 were discussing who OGB is. I think if unchallenged it could've been worse.

At it's worst I still don't think it would have given us all that much less information than a normal random voting phase. In fact since it ended the random voting phase I think this was very good for the town as actual scum hunting was able to begin very early. This was not, of course, his intention though, so he shouldn't be given credit for it, but if we are talking about simply actions and consequences you can't really say his action was anti-town.

I can. I do!

I don't think he's a particularly informative lynch today, because he's such an easy target. There's a reasonable chance there's a vig in a game this size. What's the problem with him being vigged if he is scum?

No problem with him being vigged, but I would be happy to lynch him and I don't feel as strongly about anyone else.

No strong feelings after ten pages? Hmm...

I don't understand why some think Mufasa is scum but not OGB or vice versa. Anyone care to explain?

^^ Scum.

Answer, if it's needed: they haven't behaved similarly. So your question is ill posed.

Except, roflcopter, his meta shows that he's done similarly as town. And it doesn't take long to check, I promise.

I don't see the games that he's had his alignment revealed in. So this confuses me. I also see he's been posting more, and posting CONTENT in another game.

I have given you guys every piece of truthful information that my role has and it certainly should be enough to easily to tell my allignment to the town.

I am struggling to believe you are this much of a naif. Telling us role info doesn't prove you're town. REALLY.

Interesting. To rofl's case I don't have much to say besides the fact that my first post was just a joke and that the rest of your case is founded on that one joke post.

If you're an alt then presumably you know the basics of the game. So you know that this post is damning.

They are "connected" by similarity. Both of them did nonsensical stuff, so why would one case be scummy and another not?

Similarly, both I and you have used capital letters, so our alignments must be the same.

Random thoughts:

I note that tubby216 is flying under the radar. Alvinz too.

What is Caboose's obsession with alvinz? An excuse not to contribute?

There are some obvious townies out there that don't need naming.

Scumbags

OGB - Yes.
darkdude - No scumhunting, just defending OGB and Mufasa.
Seraphim - A lot of things other people have been cataloguing. I am still waiting for an answer to 230 --- why did you LIE about how and why you came off the Mufasa wagon?

[ekiM]

Interesting. To rofl's case I don't have much to say besides the fact that my first post was just a joke and that the rest of your case is founded on that one joke post.

You fail.

Vote: OGB

(L-1)

:goodposting:

[ekiM]

OK, 2 mafia. And, by the looks, an extra killer. I'm assuming the extra hit on the Russians wasn't a 1-shot use, because it would make little sense to use one of those so early. So we probably have either a vig or an SK bouncing around. We also had a death night zero, which makes me think that the killer performed that kill, and is also likely compulsive.

I'm thinking two groups of three scum, possibly + a vig = 6 or 7 scum out of 23 people. More than that seems less plausible. Possibly the scum groups are a-symmetric though.

Caboose has put himself on the line to accuse alvinz and skitzer. OK, then.

Vote: alvinz95

(L-1)

Neighborhoods. If we're happy to follow Caboose for today and see what happens, little point in any neighbors claiming and making themselves NK targets (Upper Roccisi was known to the Italians, but possibly not the Russians). Seraphim's claim was kind of pointless as it doesn't confirm him in any way (also "Lower Roccisi" would be an easy guess for a fake neighbourhood claim...). I'm guessing the neigborhoods have abilities attached, so we don't want to lose them. I disagree with neighborhoods claiming, for today at least.

Godfather flip heavily implies investigative role(s). Surprise!

Mufasa - Looking a lot like town right now with those flips on his wagon, plus Korts' confirmation of being blocked. Still seems incapable of independent rational thought, though.

Seraphim's defense has been poor but not necessarily scummy, possibly fumbling town. The links with ThAd and inHim that rofl pointed out are interesting though. The neighborhood claim was bad. I'd still like to know why you gave a misleading explanation of why you jumped off of Mufasa's wagon, way back when, but I guess you've decided to never answer.

1. Did you look at the meta? I highly doubt it, otherwise you would see this as a legitimate observation. Or you think that everyone who is not suspicious of scum is scum...

I looked at the meta and I saw no games where he has been revealed as town. I also saw him posting more and content in another game. So, hmm.

I can actually see roflcopter being Russian Mafia, bussing hard through D1 to get town points. Your certainty in his guilt was crazy.

Pushing hard for the lynch of your own 1-short vig from the start of D1 would be stupid. And scum knew there were other mafia groups out there, so the townie points would be mitigated anyway. I don't see this as plausible, at all really.

Howard - Has contributed zilch so far this game. Went after alvinz for lack of content.

alvinz - Ditto. Votes Caboose for voting him. Hmm. Caboose declared him scum.

darkdude - needs to start playing

tubby - needs to start playing

[ekiM]

Caboose - any reason you didn't place a vote when you claim to have role based info?

[ekiM]

I think I would prefer that Alvinz claim and relay any results or whatever that he may claim to have before the hammer is dropped. I think it's unlikely he's town at this point, and he probably is today's lynch no matter what he claims, but I don't think there's a strong reason not to wait just in case Caboose is lying/wrong and Alvinz is town and has something useful he can tell us before he goes.

[ekiM]

Night 0 kills

Dust (vanilla townie)

- skitzer (vig)

Night 1 kills

inHim (italian)

- probably skitzer, he was voting for inHim D1

ThAd (italian)

- Probably the russians then

???

- italian kill on someone doesn't go through.

Night 2 kills

rofl (mason)

- italians or russians. He was obvtown.

skitzer (vig)

- guilty result on him, so I can't see why either mafia would kill him, he would've been the lynch today if he were alive. Don't see any hints that he was a vig to make scum want to kill him. I'm guessing this was a 1-shot from a townie then?

Starbuck (vanilla)

- skitzer was voting for him, doubted mufasa was scum on day 2

Mufasa (stupid JoAT)

- russians or italians because he was looking townie now and had two protects left.

So it looks like we have 2 mafia groups and a dead vig. I don't think we have an SK, 4 killing groups would be way too many (especially considering only 2 kills night 1), too swingy. 8 mafia seems quite a lot for a game of 23 players, although maybe balanced by town PRs. If it's 6 mafia then there's only one of each left. Asymmetry possible, not sure.

Caboose, any new results? Guessing you were left untouched because Mufasa could've been protecting you.

Look at these people in isolation: tubby216, darkdude, howard_roark.

tubby216 - Has said literally nothing useful. Keeps apologizing for lurking but NOT FIXING IT. Day one all he did was distance a little from OGB and Howard and eventually vote OGB. Day two says "yeah i like the case on Sera and Starbuck, vote Starbuck". Hopped onto alvinz when result was given. 8 posts so far this game?? None of them with content???

darkdude - Has said literally nothing useful. Day 1: Defended OGB. Tried to say OGB and Mufasa's alignment must be the same. No vote all day (?!). Day 2: Apologizes for not trying, suggests we look at tubby. Calls people town. Votes alvinz after the info claim (first and only vote ALL GAME!) then tries to defend him at the end. 13 posts, mostly one liners. He defended both Russians, and he seems inept enough to do that as scum, so:

Vote: darkdude

.

Howard_Roark - Has said literally nothing useful. "Mufassa's claim is poor. I hope that reaction to it is useful to finding scum." --- weird thing to say. "vote Korts For his contrived case against Seraphim." --- what? Iso 2-4 is blablabla. Said literally nothing Day 2. 8 posts so far this game??

Seraphim! Still scummy! Why did you think claiming that you're in a neighborhood helps you out? What did you say to your neighbors last night? Did you reach an agreement on whether they would claim or not? What's going on, basically.

[ekiM]

have axel and charter both gone all retarded or what?? why would the last mason member claim?? there are far to many unknowns left out there, that being said mason members shut up and say nothing more.

To confirm themself/ves town, and to avoid situations like: another mason dies tonight and tomorrow scum fakeclaims third mason, and we can't be sure that they're lying.

ekim_ you have played with me before correct? i never have any content i am not good at content posts or posting cases what i do i do well and i just post what i am thinkin.

Actually if you did post what you were thinking I'd be a lot happier. At the very least, tell us who you suspect

and why

. It's so anti-town and pointless to be an observer rather than a contributor. If you just want to watch games, don't join them.

at the risk of looking like buddying i agree with your assement of darkdude

i will re-read charter and axel

*facepalm*

Dust (vanilla townie) - skitzer (vig)

Why do you think this? I think this is a scumslip--scum would know Dust was a vigkill if, for instance, their group killing ability didn't have a Night 0 addendum.

Umm, if there is one death night zero and the vig's role PM looked like this:

skitzer, Compulsive Miller Vigilante, Town

:

• Active Abilities:
  • Vigilante:
    • Compulsive
      
      
    • Night 0

... then it's a pretty reasonable assumption that the night zero death was caused by the compulsive vig.

[ekiM]

... then it's a pretty reasonable assumption that the night zero death was caused by the compulsive vig.

No, it's not reasonable to assume that the mafia don't have any Night 0 shots. Not reasonable at all.

We know skitzer took a shot night zero. It's way more likely that it went through and the mafia didn't have shots than that it didn't go through, and exactly one of the mafia groups got a kill through.

Tajo, I would take whatever a hammered scum said in twilight with a very large pinch of salt indeed.

I see that the Upper Roccisi neighborhood had scum from both mafias in it, so anyone in it is a known target to scum. So I guess they should claim so town has the same information as the mafia? I don't see why any other neighborhoods should claim. Very interested in what Seraphim and his claimed hood have been saying to one another!

I think if there is only one more mason with rofl, and they don't have a group or individual power, then they should claim. Confirmed townies are very good for the purposes of figuring things out, and I would like to cut off the potential for fake mason claiming later days by sorting it out now. If we leave the mason claiming for a critical point then it also makes it harder to trust the claim. Any fake claim today would be countered and net us a scumbag.

Claiming might make them an NK target, but there is a kind of prisoner's dilemma here, as each mafia won't want to target him if the other will. And we may have some sort of protective role. And if he is vanilla apart from masonhood, then it

may

be better for us if he's a NK target than potential town power roles, anyway.

[ekiM]

We know skitzer took a shot night zero. It's way more likely that it went through and the mafia didn't have shots than that it didn't go through, and exactly one of the mafia groups got a kill through.

Bullshit. You can't calculate likeliness of either scenario, since you don't know the town's power roles. I have role-based information that at least one kill more was attempted N0 than went through.

And I don't have that information, so from my POV where we have a compulsive N0 vig and a single N0 kill, the most obvious explanation is that the vig committed the kill.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to partially claim, by the way.

Very interested in what Seraphim and his claimed hood have been saying to one another!

As I'm sure you would be as scum.

Right, because townies wouldn't want to know that. You're not interested in what one of your top suspects throughout the game has to say about his earlier hood claim?

Re: masons: I don't want to give scum a chance to fakeclaim and snatch the win at endgame, so I'm with charter on the masons claiming. It's a good WIFOM trap for scum night kills, too. This is, of course, if there is no additional group ability for the masonry.

Isn't this exactly what I just said?

[ekiM]

Ugh, we did say don't claim if you have a power.

Assuming N1 --> N0 etc., that's a... moderately plausible claim. I mean, rofl never mentioned you negatively, and I believe the ability makes sense, but why wouldn't you protect rofl N0? You

knew

he was town, so I don't see why you would defend an unknown good player over him. Also, why don't you mention having discussed things with rofl on the second and third nights? When did you know that you can guard one another? Did you ask the mod? What else did rofl discuss with you? If the mod allows it, I'd love for you to paste everything from your quicktopic.

If he's lying can (one of) the real mason please counter claim so we can lynch a scumbag and maybe eliminate a nightkill. I assume scum would not fake counter because trading their lynch tomorrow for a bodyguard lynch today is not good for them, especially as they've already lost 2 players each.

Tubby if nobody counters I'm going to be considering you basically confirmed town at this point. If that's the case then please try and actually contribute. A confirmed townie is very useful for analysis if he puts the effort in.

[ekiM]

i guess you are talkin about nite 0??

do you want to refrase rethink your last post before i answer charter?

Explain.

[ekiM]

Did you discuss suspects etc. at all?

[ekiM]

OK then. I'm assuming tubby is telling the truth, with the proviso that he is lying then he

really

should be counter-claimed, unless the remaining mason is a multitasker-vigilante-cop or something.

Congrats tubby, you are playing as confirmed town! Make the most of it...

@SpyreX: From page one: "

Masonry: All members are confirmed to be pro-town and share the regular town victory condition.

"
@all: would like more opinions on the merits of neighborhood claiming.

[ekiM]

What do we gain by others claiming? What's changed since yesterday in that regard?

[ekiM]

We lose that scum will also be aware of the neighborhoods. Obviously this is bad if they have a group ability. Not sure if it's bad if they don't.

If there's a group of neighbors (unconfirmed masons) in a game is it SOP for them to claim at the start of the game?

Now what do we gain? And why weren't you asking neighbors to claim yesterday or day one then?

[ekiM]

I think massclaim with 14 people is premature.

My current suspects are Darkdude and ekiM. No, Mike, this isn't OMGUS, I do have reasons to suspect you beyond what Korts has pointed out. I think you may have slipped. But of course, let's hear what Caboose has to say.

If it's not OMGUS then you should have some reasons to give.

Four people were killed last night which seems to indicate a fourth possible killing group, more than likely a one-shot given the previous night's two kills.

This makes no sense to me. There were two kills N1 and four kills N2. So you think the most likely explanation is four killing groups, two of whom screwed up or declined to kill on N1? Why?

Do you think that my inclusion into the Lower Neighborhood makes more or less likely to be scum given the two flips in the Upper Roccisi Neighborhoods?

No.

We did not talk about claiming because I only claimed to save my ass. There was no need to talk about dragging

the rest of them

into it.

ekiM, what advantage would there be in

my neighbors

claiming?

I knew when I received the neighbor role that there was most likely going to be a scum mason group. I seriously doubt there would be two which is why I'm fairly sure

my partner

is town. Hopefully,

my partner

will come to the same conclusion.

Do I spy an inconsistency? I think I do!

unvote; Vote: Seraphim

My current suspects are Darkdude and ekiM. No, Mike, this isn't OMGUS, I do have reasons to suspect you beyond what Korts has pointed out. I think you may have slipped.

If you suspect me for reasons other than OMGUS, why haven't you given them?

Also:

I think I agree that darkdude looks more like inept town than scum right now.

What changed here?

Regarding me "last ditch attempt to save Alvinz"

Actually, I reread the rules before doing this. The rules say unvotes were not necessary, so by that time I already knew that Alvinz was the lynch.

The reason I did that was because I actually did think that Alvinz's "post-lynch" post made him likely to be town, and Caboose was somehow wrong. In which case, my attempt to save Alvinz would appear pro-town after the flip.

Yes, I actually faked my play to try to look pro-town. Why? Well I'm seriously sucking ass in this game and can't play well or even make much of an effort. First time playing a Large game, I think the reason for this is I can't concentrate on this many players.

Are you on crack?

I believe that we have a better chance by leaving tubby216 alive for now.

For now? What?

Vote: darkdude

That last post gave me no reason to believe Darkdude is town.

Hey Seraphim, why do you suspect me?

Caboose, who do you plan on investigating tonight?

Seraphim, what is the pro-town motivation for trying to make that information public?

Sorry for not able to play properly, believe me I've tried

So I guess the only thing left is to laugh at the ridiculousness of this whole thing after I flip

For the lulz!

Clearly you're NOT trying.

[ekiM]

Absolutely no lynch until mixologist posts, btw

.

[ekiM]

ekiM: it's not that I really feel like defending Seraphim all that much, but the "inconsistency" you just pointed out doesn't seem like much of a slip. In fact, I think it's impossible for it to be a slip unless there are 0 town in the Lower Rocissi Neighborhood, and Seraphim knows this.

True, but I do think that it is possible that Seraphim is not really in a neighborhood. He could simply refuse to out his 'partner' forever. This isn't that consequential anyway, but I'm not sure why the inconsistency if not this.

Not sure why I put the vote next to that bit actually, asking Caboose who he would be investigating is far more egregious.

My current suspects are Darkdude and ekiM. No, Mike, this isn't OMGUS, I do have reasons to suspect you beyond what Korts has pointed out. I think you may have slipped. But of course, let's hear what Caboose has to say.

If it's not OMGUS then you should have some reasons to give.

I did somewhat hint at them. Mostly, it's just a meta read after watching you play two games as scum as your mod. You seem to be playing similarly here.

Specifically? Also, if you haven't seen me play as town for contrast then you have no basis for comparison.

Anything besides, essentially, 'gut'?

Four people were killed last night which seems to indicate a fourth possible killing group, more than likely a one-shot given the previous night's two kills.

This makes no sense to me. There were two kills N1 and four kills N2. So you think the most likely explanation is four killing groups, two of whom screwed up or declined to kill on N1? Why?

No. That's what I'm saying. I said one of them was most likely one-shot and the other got screwed up, clearly. inHim looks like a vig kill but ThAdmiral is probably the Russian kill. Where's the Italian kill? Most likely blocked.

I misread your post, sorry. I agree, then.

Do you think that my inclusion into the Lower Neighborhood makes more or less likely to be scum given the two flips in the Upper Roccisi Neighborhoods?

No.

Answer my damn question. It's not a yes or no question.

I don't think your claimed inclusion into the Lower 'hood makes you more or less likely to be scum.

Do I spy an inconsistency? I think I do!

unvote; Vote: Seraphim

Dammit. Fine. I only have one neighbor. Congratulations. Since I gave out this information, I might as well say that the Upper Roccisi Neighborhood probably only had two members as well.

I don't get it. Were you intentionally trying to be ambiguous? Then why did you say 'partner' yesterday and 'neighbors' today, instead of picking something actually ambiguous and sticking with it? Are you sure you're in a neighborhood?

Caboose, who do you plan on investigating tonight?

Seraphim, what is the pro-town motivation for trying to make that information public?

I want to know if he plans on investigating me tonight. He may or may not get a guilty depending on what investigative role he actually has.

Not buying it. Sorry. Asking investigative roles who they are going to target is scumtastic.

[ekiM]

And, haha. I just caught you. I can see through your bullshit and see your true intention. You're trying to out my partner. Why? Because you're scum?

No, I was not trying to out your partner.

Still waiting to hear what specifically about my play you feel accords with my scum meta. It's almost like you don't actually have anything there so you're repeatedly dodging the question.

I have a gun, alright? I just can't use it yet. If Caboose is a gunsmith(which is still possible), then I will come up guilty. This is the sole reason I wanted to know who he was targeting. I suppose I didn't need to know who he was targeting and should've simply made the statement.

This is *headdesk* on several levels.

There also wasn't a "multitasker" ability.

Yes there was.

Also, MILLERS DON'T CARRY GUNS.

In this game millers will appear to have a gun when investigated by a gunsmith.

You are the people who keep wanting to lynch me. I've been trying to a play a goddamn pro-town game, I've been trying to scum hunt and almost immediately I fall under scrutiny. Every fucking day there has been a group of players calling for my lynch.

And you expect me to play perfectly? What sort of fucking expectation is that? I'm trying to save my ass and expect me to play perfectly?

If it didn't not play to my win condition and darkdude wasn't such obvious gambiting scum, I would self-vote right now. Maybe once I'm dead, you'll listen to me.

*facepalm*

Godfather flip heavily implies investigative role(s). Surprise!

Rolefish +scumpoints for ekiM

How is this rolefishing?

Hmmm. If I get closer to lynch range, I'll pull out another reason keeping me alive might be a good idea.

This is why unprompted partial claims are bad, people.

---

I don't see how Seraphim and X can be of different alignments, or one of them would be dead by now. At least, I can't see the incentive for not having killed the other and gaining an extra kill for your faction on the DL. Possibly NK immunity, but that seems pretty marginal. So my working assumption is they're either town together or scum together. I'm finding it difficult to imagine Seraphim's play this game coming from a town player, but it would also be a big risk to be fakeclaiming here.

Unvote

.

---

Looking again at 473 I'm actually having trouble reconciling this with Russian-DD. The wagon was clearly unstoppable and if DD knew alvinz was Russian, it can't have been attractive to jump off at that point. His explanation in 526 is horrible but possible. Still wouldn't make him town for sure though. Argh.

---

People flying well under the radar today:

PopularTajo: Talked about neighborhoods, made a case on Howard
Howard: Made a case on Tajo. Has made 9 posts all game.
Mixologist: Hasn't posted since post 302, Saturday 23rd of May. That was Day one. What the fuck? Thread re-opened on Thursday 28th and he was posting in other threads until he dropped off the site at the start of June.

[ekiM]

ekim where the hell are you i had a town read on you but the you dissapeared

I don't get it, I posted 15 posts before this. I don't know what else there is to say today.

[ekiM]

For fuckssake, at least pretend to want to help.

Excuse me for feeling guilty for being a useless player.

I don't think it's of any use to replace out at this stage, right?

See when you apologized for not being productive yesterday and said you would try harder, I was cool with that. But you've done little since then.

[ekiM]

With every flipped scum being a power role, and the Russians already having had two 1-shot vigs flip, I'm finding it quite likely that it's two 3-man scum groups. 6 out of 23 doesn't seem out of order, and the town power roles revealed so far have not been particularly awesome. The idea of 2 more Russians is ludicrous. At the absolute most, 2 more Italians and one more Russian. Most likely in my eyes is no more Russians and one or two more Italians.

Something nobody mentioned yet by the way, with alvinz being a multitasker either the Upper Roccisi 'hood had an ability, or the Russians had more than one ability. Further scum power...

I'm currently finding it pretty likely that Lower Roccisi are both town, despite Seraphim's play this game. I just don't see why they wouldn't have killed the other night one if either were scum independent of the other. Only other possibility in my eyes is both Italian... well, ballsy gambit if so.

I'm wondering if today is the day for massclaim? I don't have any experience in big games, so what do people think?

Alive(10):

05. ekiM

09. populartajo

10. Seraphim

- Lower

12. Korts

14. X

- Lower

15. Lowell

17. HowardRoark

- Innocent result on him, hum. Are we really looking at

two

godfathers in italians, or 4 russians all with power roles including two extra NKs? Thinking this result may be accurate.
19. charter
20. SpyreX

21. Caboose

- Pretty sure based on investigations? And alvinz saved him last night, I guess. Italian cop/rolecop? Outside chance...

Orange = somewhat suspicious of them, no time for proper analysis now unfortunately.

[ekiM]

17. HowardRoark - Innocent result on him, hum. Are we really looking at two godfathers in italians, or 4 russians all with power roles including two extra NKs? Thinking this result may be accurate.

You're neglecting possibility of an SK?

Hmm. We already have two mafia killing groups, two mafia 1-shots, a compulsive town vig, and a claimed town group with a further vig ability. I'm not sure there's room in there for another nightly killer. Will look at the kill patterns later and see if it fits at all.

Bah. Apparently I forgot to factor in the three already dead Russians when considering alvinz's ISO 12. I still think there's one more Russian, and if so, they're likely one of the four on alvinz's final wagon who are unconfirmed. Italian(s) may be in that four as well.

I don't know how deductively useful this is. There was no incentive for

anybody

not to go against alvinz once Caboose outed himself to claim a guilty result on him. Town, Russian, Italian, other, they all should go for the guy with an claimed investigation against him, no matter what team he is on.

ekim, his darkdude vote, 484, I feel like that was a giant pile of trying to fit in.

Ummmm, that was the fourth post of the day, the first substantial post of the day, and the second vote of the day. I'm not sure how that can read as "trying to fit in".

He never mentioned inHim

True. There were 21 players to look at and I never mentioned inHim. Shrug.

He had this wierd addition to my back and forth with ThAd day one.

Quote it and explain why it is problematic. IIRC ThAd had some questions about why OGB was scummy that were mainly directed at you and I responded to them. So what?

---

Hopefully more time at the weekend.

[ekiM]

Will not lynch Caboose today.

Only way X or Seraphim are scum is if they are two greasy Italians together. That's not impossible, I guess.

I'm finding it hard to think we have three scum left, though. We successfully lynched scum days one and two, and there have been three NKs on scum. That feels like we should be winning by a healthy margin. Assume that there are ten players left and three scum. If we mislynch today and scum don't cross kill then tomorrow there will be three scum and four town left. That's pretty much LYLO, I think. It just seems ridiculously punitive that after 2 scum lynches and 2 mislynches the town could be effectively screwed, in a game of this size. I think there might be just one scum left, an Italian.

ekiM, the thing I found odd about you was that you voted alvinz95 to L-1 in your first post of D2. You didn't want to slow down and ask anyone questions about their actions so far in D2?

I didn't actually remember how long I went without posting on D:2, but I think it was due to lack of time. I did read the whole day and post my thoughts, and I voted Alvinz because he had a claimed guilty on him. I think when someone sets up a situation like that you might as well lynch immediately and then make sense of the aftermath.

There are three Russian mafiosi dead, but none are a Godfather. Usually scumgroups include a Godfather. The Italian scumgroup included a Godfather. Caboose has given us accurate results in the past, and he announced an Innocent on HowardRoark. And as you said, TDC likes balance and making things even. If he gave a GF to one mafia group, he would likely give one to the other mafia group as well.

Erm. With the flips we've seen, it's impossible for both scum groups to be have the same set of power roles.

Anyway,

Vote: Lowell

[ekiM]

Mike, why the Lowell vote?

Living players:
05. ekiM
09. populartajo
10. Seraphim
12. Korts
14. X
15. Mixologist
17. HowardRoark
19. charter
20. SpyreX
21. Caboose

Every post in which inHim mentioned a living player Day 1:

vote: Caboose

I'll be back maybe tomorrow, but I'm checking in and putting my vote on the most likely scum that I see. Mostly the doublespeak on voting OGB and reactions to Mufasa is my reasoning.

inHimshallIbe: I'm sorry but your first post reads scum to me...placing your vote on someone in no danger of being lynched while you catch up so that you seem like you're doing something is very scummy. Please explain your case against Caboose in more detail.

I actually thought he had more than 0 votes at the time I voted. I much prefer a wagon. I have no more detail.

rofl: I dunno, rofl. You haven't seen Mufasa's past play. I've certainly been weighing whether or not he's town in my head.

...

Unvote

Don't like the speed of this wagon at all. Mufasa is definitely still my #1 suspect but pressuring him with votes isn't going to do any good.

unvote

vote: Seraphim

What is there to pressure Mufasa about anyway? I don't like how you've backed off his lynch train.

+Seraphim (+ = good/towniepoints, - = bad/possible italian).

Alright, inHimshallibe. In your last two posts, you have demonstrated extreme scumminess. Your first post set off some alarm bells as you put your vote on Caboose who had no wagon on him because of doublespeak(what?) and reactions to Mufasa. You are never questioned on this except by me who mentions it in passing as scummy behavior.

First off, "inHim" will help you out on reducing all the typing.

I am responding to this directly because you did mention it, but probably won't come back to it after this post, unless of course I ruffle some other goose's feathers. Doublespeak, to clarify, would be Caboose's alvinz spiel, which I more or less see as fencesitting (one of my favorite words in my mafia vernacular).

Then, second post.

I actually thought he had more than 0 votes at the time I voted. I much prefer a wagon. I have no more detail.

So you though you were wagoning a player who you vote because of tells you can't elaborate on?

More or less, yes. I like to vote productively, and had I realized Caboose was sitting on no votes, I would have mentioned him, but probably would have wound up voting one of Mufasa or OGB.

What is there to pressure Mufasa about anyway?

Urm...that's why I unvoted. Kneejerk reaction was to vote him but that doesn't do anything. If we lynch him, it will be at the end of the day when all avenues of discussion are finished. Voting him serves no purpose as he doesn't need pressure.Hmm, I definitely read that post in the wrong way. I thought you were saying you didn't want to pressure Mufasa any further. I'll look back at it again later.

Since a consolidation has been requested, and I very much like the idea, I'll go ahead and

unvote
vote: OGB

In other news, HowardRoark and Korts are probably the same faction.

+Sera,Howard,Korts

Hmmm, I actually don't like my vote now.

Given the high modularity (holy hell, that's a word?) of the game, I'm going to attribute Mufasa's role as a credit to TDC's innovation as a mod.

I'm normally pretty cut-and-dry on my LAL policy, but I'm thinking it's pretty obvious Mufasa is town. To those of you who have said this before, sorry good buddies, I'm a few pages behind on the times.

I agree with Korts that Mufasa is helpful to the town alive rather than dead, but I'm not so keen on pushing votes on charter or ekiM, who I think are just headstrong town at the moment.

Looking back at some of the wagon patterns on Mufasa, I'm returning to my Seraphim vote.

unvote

vote: Seraphim

+Sera, -Charter

I've chronicled the 'wagon on Mufasa since his claim:

charter, Seraphim, iamausername, Korts

(Korts unvotes)

charter, Seraphim, iamausername, Mixologist, Starbuck

(Seraphim unvotes)

charter, iamausername, Mixologist, Starbuck, skitzer

(iamausername unvotes)

(Mixologist unvotes)

charter, Starbuck, skitzer, OozingGoofball, X, ThAdmiral, inHimshallibe

(inHimshallibe unvotes)

And the count now stands:

charter, Starbuck, skitzer, OozingGoofball, X, ThAdmiral

More of a future reference, really, but I can do a small bit of analysis:

charter seems convicted, and Starbuck seems negligent.

Not among any of this is Axelrod, and duly noted.

+Charter

Bad play comes from scum too.

Yeah, but it doesn't equal scum play, as skitzer was so very much implying. Given my previous thoughts on the Mufasa matter, I thought it was inherently clear that I was making the point of "bad town play." I also think you've got a bit of tunnelvision involving Mufasa, which may be cluttering your views on other players.

His skitzer vote is very weak.

I don't think anything regarding Seraphim is going to move on this Day, and I don't like the OGB wagon - blown way out of proportion, in my opinion.

+charter,sera

He never mentioned Tajo, X, Spyrex, or Mixologist (Lowell). He also never mentioned his known partner, ThAd, except very briefly in the wagon analysis.

My conclusions from this: the four above could be non-interactive partners. Sera doesn't look Italian from this. I'm a bit conflicted on what it means for charter.

Pages 1-3

The oh-so-important random phase is "interrupted" by ogb claiming he is an alt. For some reason this makes him obvscum according to seraphim and rofl and others. I tend to disagree.

At worst he is being slightly unhelpful. Whoever said he is trying to distract the town from scum hunting is ridiculous as its rather easy to attempt a guess at who he's and alt of/ignore him altogether

and

hunt scum at the same time. Anyone who can't do a simple multitasking assignment like this should probably quit the game mafia for good.

Page 4

Mufasa claims joat really early. Why? Charter and seraphim then vote for mufasa. Even more why?

Mufasa seems inexperienced.

Seraphim says something about the "tone" in which mufasa claimed which is just a very poor and completely subjective way to keep his vote on someone who may very well be a town power role.

However...iamusername points out a very interesting fact that players aren't given their role names. While this is true I don't think it's impossible that a person could have surmised their role from their abilities (I know I can), however it does seem slightly unlikely that an inexperienced player would know about a jack of all trades. It could be a scum claim but it would be a risky one.

caboose defends mufasa. noted.

it seems mufasa is not inexperienced but is a bit daft. he also is trying to tell the doc what to do. hmm.

will continue later.

+Sera,Caboose

page 6

mufasa's past is revealed. apparently he is a bit of a menace.

Spyrex votes ogb for fairly shady reasons.

starbuck brings up the "ogb is distracting" point again, which, as I said, is ridiculous.

ekim actually has some good points to say about the ogb situation. Here they are:

re: OGB. People typically use alt accounts because they want to be able to escape their meta and have an anonymous game where the usual perceptions of them don't apply. Using an alt so you can say "Hai guys, guess who I am??" is sheer wankery and actually fairly pitiful. That said, if OGB can pull his finger out and play in an acceptably pro-town manner, that's fine. If it he continues to play as if he's joined the game just to screw about then he can go hang, whoever he is. Can't allow scum to hide behind the "LOL IM A VI!!!" façade.

he also brings up a telling point against mufasa in that he doesn't have a vig, which could be used to test the role. Mufasa is seeming more dumb and scummy by the second.

rofl says mufasa must be town because he is inexperienced and stupid. While I sort of agree with this I also think that by the same token an inexperienced and stupid mafiate could also behave this way. Rofl also brings up the fact that the role jack of all trades is on the first page as evidence that mufasa is most likely telling the truth, but I would say it is slightly convenient/coincidental that he has one of the roles that has been displayed on the first page...without the ability that could prove it.

darkdude comes out of nowhere are says ogb and mufasa are town. No reasons given.

ekim brings up the distraction argument against ogb...

I was beginning to like him

Page 7

Saying stuff like:

we need to get back to lynching ogb.

^^^ lynch this guy now

Like there's some kind of open and shut case out there is not helpful

This is so true. The annoying thing is this sort of stuff is in so many games these days. It is not in persuasive in the slightest so I don't see the point of doing it anyway.

Rofl says:

ok, seraphim is plunging down the town charts and heading very quickly towards scum territory.

which is a close relative to the examples that axelrod was talking about before.

Essentially some reasoning would be nice.

Skitzer makes some interesting (read: scummy) posts in which he only looks at one side of the mufasa issue, states that we will have to lynch him eventually, and perhaps subtly implies he knows he is town in 173, although I am willing to let that one off with just odd wording.

In any case Skitzer has gone up in my scum rankings.

more later...

+SpyreX

Page 8

Axelrod makes more good points against mufasa. At this point I am fairly certain mufasa is lying.

Caboose continues to defend mufasa. If mufasa comes up scum caboose has to be next. I normally don't like chain lynching but this one seems like a gimme.

Howard Roark votes korts "for his contrived case against seraphim". Another example of a completely subjective reason to vote someone, furthermore a reason I don't agree with at all. He doesn't use any points to back it up either.

Darkdude continues to be unhelpful.

Spyrex makes a few bold claims about people, some I agree with some I don't. Have seen him play like this before as town and have been getting town vibes off him in general.

Page 9

claiming out of the clear blue sky on day one before a serious wagon has even really taken off on anyone is undeniably stupid, and will bring the house down on your head.

This is true, but why does stupid = town? If Mufasa got a scum role, would it suddenly boost his IQ by a few orders of magnitude?

i mean, really, did anyone look at the EXAMPLE PMS provided with the ruleset? the name "jack-of-all-trades" is right there guys.

Yes, I noticed. I assume that's where Mufasa got it from when he decided to fake claim.

These are two zingers that summarize my stance on a few things in an overall very good post by iamausername.

+ town points to iamausername.

mufasa claims he did it all for reactions.

++Caboose, +Howard, -Korts,

How pro-town do you feel that OGB is now that you've read the whole thread?

This is a bit of a loaded question. I think it is fairly obvious that ogb has not been pro-town, however I don't think he's necessarily been anymore anti-town than, say, a lurker.

Basically I think there was an overreaction initially to his first couple of posts, although I do admit that his continued unhelpfullness does not make him look good.

Whoever said he is trying to distract the town from scum hunting is ridiculous as its rather easy to attempt a guess at who he's and alt of/ignore him altogether and hunt scum at the same time.

I said this. I don't think it's ridiculous at all when all OGB is interested in doing is getting people to guess who he is. Playing guess the alt detracts from scumhunting, and I'd much rather quash OGB's mess before someone takes his bait.

You aren't the only one who has said it, so don't think I am trying to focus on you. But since you responded:

1. that's not "all ogb is intested in". Let's put it in to a bit of perspective: he asked a question that admittedly wasn't all that relevant to the game, but did so in the

random voting phase

, a period of the game that is debatable in regards to how helpful it is in determining scum from town.

2. how does it detract from scum hunting when you easily still scum hunt and just ignore his question?

3. furthermore who are these other people that you are trying to protect from "taking his bait". Do you think anyone in this game actually has taken his bait and has been so caught up in guessing who he is that they have been

completely unable

to scum hunt and therefore have put the town in a far worse position? Has anything even slightly resembling this happened?

(also is anyone else slightly amused by these people going on and on about ogb, saying we shouldn't get distracted by ogb, without irony?)

Mufasa claims joat really early. Why? Charter and seraphim then vote for mufasa. Even more why?

Because he claimed for no reason on page three. Since then, he's changed his claim to make it utterly useless for town two times. He's a distraction and detriment to the town and is either scum or a townie helping scum out. Either way, I want him dead, and the sooner the better.

True, especially the last bit.

But at the time his nefarious past and unhelpful nature hadn't been brought to light and it was quite reasonable to suspect he may actually be a pro town power role.

For example, if someone claimed doc early day 1 for no apparent reason, and isn't counterclaimed, should that person then be wagoned?

as I said before I think mufasa is lying and calls for him to be vigged are a bit silly given that we don't know whether there is a vig or not and furthermore he may very well be scum.

vote: mufasa

+charter

---Responses from page 10---

OK. I think active lurking is probably worse than lurking though, especially when done after being specifically called out for not contributing.

Fair enough. Just for the record what is your definition of active lurking as there are a few different interpretations.

He is still yet to show interest in scumhunting.

There are others though. Darkdude comes to mind.

It's a bit hard to say what would've happened in the counter-factual where his question wasn't immediately called out by several people as being a distraction and not worth addressing. Posts 32, 33, 34, 36, 39, 43, 169, 171 were discussing who OGB is. I think if unchallenged it could've been worse.

At it's worst I still don't think it would have given us all that much less information than a normal random voting phase. In fact since it ended the random voting phase I think this was very good for the town as actual scum hunting was able to begin very early. This was not, of course, his intention though, so he shouldn't be given credit for it, but if we are talking about simply actions and consequences you can't really say his action was anti-town.

I don't think he's a particularly informative lynch today, because he's such an easy target. There's a reasonable chance there's a vig in a game this size. What's the problem with him being vigged if he is scum?

No problem with him being vigged, but I would be happy to lynch him and I don't feel as strongly about anyone else.

1- Ok then, you tell me what else he is interested in except for voting anyone he can to try and relieve pressure off himself, because I sure as hell don't see anything besides trying to distract the town in his posts.

You admit it yourself that he is interestesd in other things. Like shamelessly jumping on bandwagons.

2- I know I can do both. I know there are many players who can do both. I know there are also many players who cannot do both and will get caught up in trivial things like that.

name one.

3- I do not believe this has happened to an unacceptable extent. I believe that the swift wagon on OGB shunned anyone who may have wanted to play guess the alt from doing so.

Fair enough. So since his actions were only theoretically distracting to people you are only theoretically suspicous of him?

For example, if someone claimed doc early day 1 for no apparent reason, and isn't counterclaimed, should that person then be wagoned?

Absolutely. Not all games have a doc. I'd probably want to lynch this person.

Agree to disagree.

Actually doc is a bad example as claiming makes that role useless. How about cop?

+charter

whats the difference between ogb and mufasa?

I think one is lurking a bit and said something that lead to some overreactions, and another one is almost certainly lying about something.

Starbuck - dont like this guy. Agreeing with rolf, charter and mike about ogb. Then, he has a weird stance regarding Mufasa. First he is quikcly to put Mufasa in the town territory. Too much for my taste.

Onto Mufasa, I don't understand why someone would claim on Day 1. It just makes no sense.

It just made him a Mafia target.

But then, he votes for him when the pressure starts to increase.

I am also in agreement on Mufasa. Something just doesn't seem right.

Vote: Mufasa

Good pick up there. It seems she's hinting at the fact that she knows mufasa is town in that first post.

in fact

unvote

,

vote: starbuck

I didn't see a point to Mufasa's claim unless he was trying to set up the town for the mafia, which is why I voted for him and why my vote has stayed on him.

Can you elaborate on "trying to set up the town for the mafia"?

I was actually thinking that scum would try to disguise their NK as a vigging. Wouldn't this point mufasa more towards town?

mafia generally do not pretend to be vigs as they are always eventually caught out by nk discrepancies ("why is there constantly only one night kill?") and also would then have to pretty much follow the town.

Slight -Tajo.

He never mentioned: Mixologist (Lowell). He also never mentioned his known partner, inHim.

Conclusions I draw from this: Again, could be maintaining non-interaction with Mix. Not looking for an Italian among SpyreX, Caboose, Seraphim or Charter right now. Might be wrong, but at the most basic reading of the above, that's what I get from it.

The only time Mixologist mentioned either of these players was to say "Waiting on darkdude/tubby/alvinz/ThAdmiral to start playing." I think that this mutual three-way non-interactivity could easily be scum going for one of the most obvious ways of avoiding linkage on Day 1. Mixologist --- possible greasy Italian.

After Day 1 Mixologist disappeared. Seems he was V/LA for some of that disappearance, however I did see him posting elsewhere after that but never here. Hum.

Let's look at his replacement then, Lowell:

He hasn't really said a lot since he came in. Several times he's said "I'll post more soon". His big vote analysis post looks like a whole lot of not very much. Spends plenty of time telling us what he thinks of already flipped players. Says he thinks DD is town but would vote him anyway?? His contributions today have been severely lacking. Votes X based on """I'm not thrilled with X's 665 yesterday or 673 today. They seem to "OMG please don't help scum OMG" for my liking.""" Which is... uh... opaque. Then he said he liked one of Howard's posts. And that's it.

So, his predecessor had no interactions with either flipped Italian, then vanished (and I recall some posting elsewhere when he was supposed to be back). Now he's really not done anything that makes me think "pro-town". Especially off was saying he thinks DD is town but still supporting the lynch. Trying to have it both ways?

I may go back and look at each living player's mentions of the Italians on D1, when I have time later, and see if that turns up anything interesting. For now however, I think that this is a good lynch.

[ekiM]

n alvinz' final outbreak post, he claims that there are at least 3 scum on his wagon; superimposing the dead players' list on the alvinz-voters' list, that leaves 3 out of 4. Even considering that there can't be 3 more Russian scum I doubt alvinz was completely bluffing; in addition I doubt that at that point (cop guilty on alvinz) Russians would have tried anything else but fervent bussing; therefore the assumption is that if there are any Russians left, which I suspect to be true, they're likely among the four living alvinz-voters. One of them is SpyreX.

If there is no reason for a Russian or an Italian to act in any way other than a townie would with regard to Alvinz, then you can't conclude anything alignment from the actions w.r.t Alvinz then.

I think, based on balance alone, an Italian is more likely. Based on the interactions we've seen though, a Russian is just as probable.

Odd thing to say. There is

certainly

another Italian. And it's

possible

all Russians are dead. Right?

Caboose - when i analysed him he came up as the most likely italian. cop claim saved his ass, is there any reason why mafia are not killing a claimed cop and going for targets like axelrod?

I don't get it.

Lowell - mixo was prob townie when he was here, i got some overall townie read from first lowell post.

Or this.

@ALL: I am away for a week starting Tuesday. No access whatsoever.

[ekiM]

X, I don't think that's an especially fair representation of my analysis. I wasn't just listing times people were mentioned positively. Actually I don't think I used that even once. Most of the observations are of the Italians casting aspersions on other players. Yes, this is possibly distancing, but I think it's far more likely to be used against non-Italians. The tells are obviously of different strengths, but things like "Caboose continues to defend mufasa. If mufasa comes up scum caboose has to be next. I normally don't like chain lynching but this one seems like a gimme." are pretty indicative. I can't see scum lining up a lynch on a partner like that, when for all they knew Mufasa could easily have been another scum faction.

Also the main point was explaining my Lowell vote---total non-interaction with both Italians D1 is somewhat suspicious, and he's done very little since replacing in.

[ekiM]

It's not a number based method. I just didn't have time to go into detail for each post why I thought it made someone more or less suspicious. I think most of it is pretty self-explanatory anyway, but if not please do ask.

Believe I already did this, but:

Vote: Lowell

[ekiM]

Woah I got votes. Not cool. Someone tell me what I've done wrong.

Speaks for itself, really.

716- ekim, why can X and Seraphim only be scum together? It's not possible one is scum and one is playing poorly? Why not?

They've claimed to have an extra vig that gets enabled when one of them dies. I cannot see how they wouldn't kill the other ASAP if either were scum independently. An extra kill is a huge bonus.

I'm on vacation in nine hours.. will check back before that.

[ekiM]

Hi guys, I'm back now. Was visiting with my parents after I got back and their internet was bust, am back home now. Will have some time to go over things this evening or tomorrow.

I'm a vanilla townie.

[ekiM]

OK, reading from mid page 32 onwards...

I don't think it's significant that Lowell used the wrong term for his group membership. Quite possibly he just looked at his role PM and never read the page one description of how the modular mechanics of this game work.

That said, I have some questions. Why the claim? Did they ever claim a group ability? Every other claimed group has had an ability (we don't know about Upper Roccisi, but lower claimed so and the masons did). Neither of you seems to consider at all the possibility that the other is scum. Why?

---

ekim, post 248 was what I was referring to in 690, though now I'm pretty sure it's tajo, not you.

What's the issue with post 248?

Its not a matter of 'saving' him. You went "I dont think he's scum" to your partner and then immediately voted him out of the block - and he didn't say anything.

Seriously.

---

Talk about game symmetry is stupid. We've seen no evidence of it at all.

---

Seraphim is NK immune but X is vanilla? Odd. Also breaks some of my earlier reasoning for clearing them.

---

Vote Count fixed.

Prodding Mixologist* and HowardRoark

*He PMed me during the night, I accepted that as picking up his prod from D1, because obviously, he couldn't reply to it in-thread at the time.

That's the modfom side of it.

Mix was absent from the thread for an absurdly long time but hey, he seemed in touch with the mod at night...

Well, I still think that if he was scum he would have posted something in our QT, but that doesn't really look good for him I guess.

Indeed it don't. I'm not sure why your first clause.

I don't understand how you can think we're scum together. Why would our claim have been this shitty if we're scum together? We would have had it planned out days ago. This isn't really WIFOM since it would make sense for scum to have a solid sounding claim, not this jank we have.

Uh yeah that's pretty much textbook WIFOM.

---

Yet this continued into day two, after several scum were killed. If Caboose was Italian, he'd have been down a doctor by that point, thus putting himself in a very vulnerable position. It's obvious that I am/he was a legit cop based on the accuracy of our results - why, then would he be more likely to draw attention to himself as scum cop over town cop? The way he acted makes more sense as town, because there is no kill to use to go after those guilty results; the only way to get those investigations out there is through this thread. If he was scum, he could have just kept his mouth shut and taken care of any guilty result at night.

This is good logic.

Similarly, I find X's 180 on the Caboose subject scummy as shit, but I'm seeing that people are writing Seraphim/X off as probable town because they claim to receive a kill if the other dies:

They've claimed to have an extra vig that gets enabled when one of them dies. I cannot see how they wouldn't kill the other ASAP if either were scum independently. An extra kill is a huge bonus.

...which I agree is a very strong point in favor of them being town.

Sera has now claimed NK-immune though, which is both mystifying and screws with that logic.

1) Spyrex
2) populartajo
3) Lowell
4) ekiM
5) Korts
6) charter
7) HowardRoark
8) X
9) Seraphim

Curious about SpyreX and my placement there...

---

I don't see how you can think me and Lowell are scumbuddies when there's already five scum dead. I'm sorry, but there is not seven or eight scum in this game. For that many you need ~30 players, and that's without them all having power roles and so far, all of our scum have ridiculously good roles.

Is this really true? 7 out of 23 is implausible?

---

All the votes suddenly piling up on SpyreX = eh?

---

No lynch. And SpyreX dies at night. Um. Why not the cop. Bizarr-o.

Lowell, if you don't think Spyrex is scum, who do you think is scum? The main reason I thought he was was his ridiculous charter/Lowell are scum theory.

Why ridiculous? I'm not seeing why 7 scum is so out of whack.

I got an innocent on populartajo.

This all adds up.

I'd support a massclaim. Why not. I doubt it will do much though.

You know what else hasn't done much? YOU! You've made one useful post since replacing in.

Because I found both you and Spyrex to be scummier by a significantly larger margin than the other players in the game. Ultimately, though, either I would have received a guilty on you and known you were scum, which is good news in itself, or an innocent, which, because you claimed backup cop, would be far more beneficial to be made known than in the case of Spyrex.

Again this all makes sense.

So is Korts the only person that isn't cleared/town then? Didn't he not want to claim yesterday as well? I want to see what he's cooked up for us today then before I vote him.

I think it was ekim/X that get a kill if the other dies (unlikely either of them is scum then).

Me/Lowell are neighbors, though I don't think he's scum.

tajo, Howard, Seraphim were all cleared by Caboose/Kison.

Am I missing anything?

Umm, only that like half of this is wrong.

Alright. I'm a tracker/watcher jack-of-all-trades type role, and my abilities are the following: one shot each of tracker, watcher, amnesiac tracker, amnesiac watcher, tracker inventor, and watcher inventor. I also had a bulletproof vest, but I was shot on N0. Only the inventor abilities could be used on N0.

My targets are as follows:

N0 I used the watcher inventor on roflcopter.
N1 I tracked Seraphim. No result.
N2 I watched Caboose. I saw tubby visiting him, and you can see that my actions toward tubby were hostile up until his claim, where his target matched my results.
N3 I used amnesiac tracker on Axelrod, sending the results to Caboose, now Kison. Hopefully Kison can confirm the fact that his predecessor got the result; I breadcrumbed this in my first post after night 3, by asking Caboose whether he recieved anything else than his regular result.

Last night I unfortunately forgot to send an action, since I intended to sit down and thoroughly consider my options with an amnesiac watcher. I intended to watch Kison, but I wasn't really sure who I could send the results to.

So basically, I'm left with one shot each of amnesiac watcher and tracker inventor.

This is all quite detailed, plausible, and tallies with past words and actions. Prima facie true.

N3 I used amnesiac tracker on Axelrod, sending the results to Caboose, now Kison. Hopefully Kison can confirm the fact that his predecessor got the result;

I got it. No result.

Unless Korts and Kison are BOTH scum (wildly unlikely, I think...), this pretty much confirms their roleclaims to be true to me.

After deep thought, I'm going to wait until he claims, but...

With all this, it think it's fairly clear who the last scum is: ekiM.

How so, process of elimination or something? Could you lay it out in a bit more detail?

Charter/Lowell as Neighbors really means nothing, and with Seraphim being NK-Immune it means nothing for me to be a Neighbor as well

Agreeeee, and I like you acknowledging that your own 'hood doesn't clear you.

Well, a vanilla doesn't mean anything, so process of elimination

vote ekiM

Could you lay out that process for me?

[ekiM]

Public information:

Living player claims:

[mrow]Player[col]Role[col]Neighborhood[col]Cop result? ekiM[col]-[col]-[col]- populartajo[col]Backup Cop[col]-[col]Not guilty Seraphim[col]NK Immune[col]Lower Roccisi (solo vigilante)[col]- Korts[col]Investigative JoAT[col]-[col]- X[col]-[col]Lower Roccisi (solo vigilante)[col]- Lowell[col]-[col]Seaside (no ability)[col]- HowardRoark[col]-[col]-[col]Not guilty charter[col]-[col]Seaside (no ability)[col]- Kison[col]Cop[col]-[col]-

All players (color = death confirms alignment, white = claims)

[mrow]Player[col]Alignment[col]Individual Power[col]Group[col]Group powers[col]Cop result? ThAdmiral[col]Italian[col]Doctor[col]Italy[col]?[col]- Tubby[col]Town[col]-[col]Mason[col]Bodyguard[col]Not guilty darkdude[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- roflcopter[col]Town[col]-[col]Mason[col]Bodyguard[col]- ekiM[col]?[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- iam[col]Russian[col]1-shot vig[col]Russia[col]?[col]- alvinz[col]Russian[col]Multitasker[col]Russia,Upper[col]?,?[col]Guilty skitzer[col]Town[col]Comp Miller Vig[col]-[col]-[col]Guilty populartajo[col]?[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]Not guilty Seraphim[col]?[col]NK-immune[col]Lower[col]Solo vig[col]- Mufasa[col]Town[col]Protective JoAT[col]-[col]-[col]- Korts[col]?[col]Investigative JoAT[col]-[col]-[col]- inHim[col]Italian[col]Godfather[col]Italy,Upper[col]?,?[col]- X[col]?[col]-[col]Lower[col]Solo vig[col]- Lowell/Mix[col]?[col]-[col]Seaside[col]-[col]- Dust[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- HowardRoark[col]?[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]Not guilty Starbuck[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- charter[col]?[col]-[col]Seaside[col]-[col]- Spyrex[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- Kison/Caboose[col]?[col]Cop[col]-[col]-[col]- Axelrod[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- OGB[col]Russian[col]1-shot vig[col]Russia[col]?[col]-

[ekiM]

Tajo,Sera,Korts,X,Lowell,Howard,charter,Kison.

I think Kison/Korts backed each other up pretty well.

Tajo,Sera,X,Lowell,Howard,charter.

Tajo and Howard cleared (or SECOND godfather in italy? that would be anti-flavor. backup godfather? hehe... unlikely).

Sera,X,Lowell,charter.

Well I'm left with the 2 claimed neighbor hoods. Of the two, seaside is way less plausible. What;s the point, even, of a hood with no power? Also Lowell has done barely anything useful since replacing in, hard active lurking really, mix had total non-interaction with the flipped italians day 1, was absent from thread but not from messaging TDC.

vote: Lowell

.

[ekiM]

Yet this continued into day two, after several scum were killed. If Caboose was Italian, he'd have been down a doctor by that point, thus putting himself in a very vulnerable position. It's obvious that I am/he was a legit cop based on the accuracy of our results - why, then would he be more likely to draw attention to himself as scum cop over town cop? The way he acted makes more sense as town, because there is no kill to use to go after those guilty results; the only way to get those investigations out there is through this thread. If he was scum, he could have just kept his mouth shut and taken care of any guilty result at night.

I missed this before. Why would he draw attention to himself as Scum Cop? Because it's given him/you semi-confirmed status.

Not worth risking drawing the cross-kill though.

Similarly, I find X's 180 on the Caboose subject scummy as shit, but I'm seeing that people are writing Seraphim/X off as probable town because they claim to receive a kill if the other dies:

They've claimed to have an extra vig that gets enabled when one of them dies. I cannot see how they wouldn't kill the other ASAP if either were scum independently. An extra kill is a huge bonus.

...which I agree is a very strong point in favor of them being town.

Sera has now claimed NK-immune though, which is both mystifying and screws with that logic.

Yeah, this was before I caught that Seraphim was night kill immune. Assuming I have this right, they get a kill if the other dies. This still remains a fairly compelling argument for Seraphim not being scum, given that X is not claiming to have the same immunity.

That's right I think.

Why exactly are you all preferring Lowell instead of charter?

Speaking for myself, mainly the way he's doing very little scumhunting.

Kison, do you realize that one of the optymal plays yesterday was to investigate Spyrex?

I read this as . . . "Hey!!! I killed SpyreX to waste one of your investigations because I expected an investigation on him! Why'd you investigate me?!?!?" This is gold. Drat that pesky result.

That's silly. If Tajo is a godfather then he'd be fine with having drawn the investigation.

ekiM's 903- I've considered the possibility charter is scum. I just don't find it likely that he is.

WHY?

This is like blood from a stone.

901 is bad for justifying lurkervotes.

So you admit that you're lurking? Why are you lurking?

903 is bad for shotgunning

I had two weeks of posting to comment on, so I had a few things to say. I understand 'shotgunning' to be shooting a wide field of suspicion in the hope of hitting something. I'm not doing this.

In general, this post has the feel of someone who is trying to position himself as being active and pro-town, but I don't see that much that really hits hard.

As opposed to your Herculean scumhunting efforts...? I've said more in the couple of posts since I got back than you've said all game.

... also, charter's defense of me suggests he's town. A scum mason-buddy wouldn't try very hard to prevent his partner from being lynched. It would exonerate him and give him a clear path to victory were the town-buddy to die.

He's not trying very hard. He's saying "Lowell is town" without any serious justification.

Also, your logic appears to be "people who suspect me are bad, people who defend me are good". You know that's weak, right?

I've already explained why. Mixologist wasn't posting in our quicktopic, and I'm pretty sure that if he was scum, and had just checked his scum quicktopic, he'd hop on over to ours and try and figure out what I'm thinking. His lack of participation I think means he wasn't interested, which I think makes him much more likely to be town.

That's absurdly flimsy. One could just as plausibly argue that avoiding discussion in a QT is scummy. It certainly is in the main thread. And from this you insist so strongly that Lowell is town? This leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

My thinking right now is that scum is one, possibly two of {ekiM;charter;Lowell}. I'm leaning towards ekiM right now, up next Lowell, and then charter.

...

Would it kill you guys to provide a couple of sentences of reasoning when you say stuff like this?

People, Lowell is town, unvote him.

People, give some damn reasoning or there is no reason to listen to you.

People, Lowell is town, unvote him.

Listen to the man. Let's make something happen with ekim.

Interesting how you start posting once you're in danger, to point the finger at the only other guy to have gotten a vote. Seems rather self-serving.

[ekiM]

Korts, in post 363 you say "Re: my being blocked, I confirm that it's likely I was blocked." You've claimed that N1 you tracked Seraphim and receieved no result. Why did that make it likely that you were blocked?

[ekiM]

Mike, what do you think of he claiming masons instead of neighbors?

I don't think it's significant.

Who are your other suspects?

Charter for defending Lowell based on nothing, that could be the action of a scum partner or, if Lowell isn't scum, scum looking for cred for defending a townie. The thing I just posted from Korts troubles me. Also X is not really confirmed at all now that Seraphim claimed NK-immune, so I need to think about him.

Why do you think Lowell is town? Who do you suspect?

[ekiM]

In post 931 the second-to-last quotation should've been attributed to Tajo, not Korts.

[ekiM]

You got no message at all from TDC then?

[ekiM]

"""

Amount of Night Actions: Unless otherwise stated, every player may only use one night action per night. This includes group actions submitted by that player.

...

Active ability modifiers

:

• Free: This ability does not count against the one action a night rule.

...

Passive abilities

:

• Multitasker: You can use one additional ability per night.

"""

[ekiM]

I could go for Seraphim's plan. If he's telling us the truth getting an extra townie-directed NK each night will help us out a lot I think. His play throughout this game has been very patchy but I can't really get my head around why he wouldn't have killed X if he is scum. A 1scum-1town nhood with that ability and the townie having NK-immunity seems like a plausible design. I see X-scum as being plausible.

Also there are a couple of things we need to explain that haven't gotten too much attention:

• Why did inHim die N1with a doctor on his team?
  • Was not protected because the doc protected someone else.
    
  • Was protected but targeted for a kill more than once.
    
  • Doc was roleblocked.
• Why was there no kill from the Italians on N1?
  • The killer was blocked.
    
  • The target had immunity.
    
  • The target had protection.

(Any more possibilities, please point them out).

One explanation for the lack of an Italian NK N1 is that X is scum and they tried to take out Seraphim but failed. I'm kind of neutral on X based on his play so far, but I could believe him to be scum. Why did inHim die? Perhaps X has a power role he hasn't revealed and they thought it more worth protecting than godfather.

unvote; Vote: X

NOTE: we only have a couple of days left before deadline. I will definitely be around to move my vote if needed, but we really mustn't allow a no lynch again.

[ekiM]

Oh, it's one shot? Never mentioned that here:

No point in keeping this secret.

I'm Seraphim's

only

neighbor, in the Lower Roccisi Neighborhood

. The

group

has a Soloist Vigilante ability.

or

I have claimed Lower Roccisi with a shared kill between me and my neighbor, X. I am also NK-immune.

Hmm. Was that an oversight, an intentional omission, what?

Also interested in this:

Nighttalk Paraphrase

Night 0

Seraphim: Hi!
X: What's the point of this if you're scum?
Seraphim: Eh, whatever. Any abilities that you have that I should know about?

Night 1

X:

Excised.

You?
Seraphim:

Excised.

Didn't expect OGB as scum. Who do you think is scum?
X: roflcopter, alvinz, IHSIB. And I have no idea about Mufasa. Also didn't see OGB as either scum or town. I think the speed of this game coupled with my inexperience with Large games is hurting my scumhunting.
Seraphim: I see rofl as a Cop w/Guilty.

Night 2

Seraphim: Look, there's another Mafia Neighbor. What's the chance that I'm mafia now? I doubt you are. Probably 1 scum left per group. Wanna try a gambit?
X: It definitely decreased the chance, but I'm not ruling it out. How are you sure about the 1 scum thing? And I'm very cautious about gambits, but shoot.
Seraphim: Never mind. Too many problems in the gambit. And I'm not sure, but it's unfeasible to have two 4-man mafias. And if alvinz was a motivator, how did we only get 1 kill N0? And do you think Caboose is town?
X: I see your point about balance, but I won't rule out 4 and 4. alvinz was a multitasker. As far as Caboose goes, the alvinz flip makes me sort of trust him. I will be surprised if he doesn't die Tonight. But the mod could have given an investigation to a mafioso. But other than his clairvoyant predictions, he hasn't contributed much. What do you think of him?

compared to

[Seraphim] told me [about his NK immunity] during N2.

What was excised then? What was the 'gambit'? etc.

[ekiM]

5 hours to deadline. I've got that sinking feeling...

[ekiM]

Unofficial vote count:

Lowell (3): X, HowardRoark, Kison
X (3): ekiM, Korts, Lowell
ekiM(1): Charter

Not Voting (2): populartajo, Seraphim

TWO AND A HALF HOURS UNTIL DEADLINE

HowardRoark

, will you be around to move your vote to X if someone else votes him? Otherwise if anyone new votes for Lowell I'll move my vote back to hammer.

Tajo, Seraphim

: Vote for someone!

Korts, charter, X, Kison

: Any chance of you being awake to move your vote?

[ekiM]

One hour ten minutes until deadline.

Someone please vote so that we can get a lynch.

[ekiM]

Public information:

Living player claims:

[mrow]Player[col]Role[col]Neighborhood[col]Cop result? ekiM[col]-[col]-[col]- populartajo[col]Backup Cop[col]-[col]Not guilty Seraphim[col]NK Immune[col]Lower Roccisi (solo vigilante)[col]- Lowell[col]-[col]Seaside (no ability)[col]- HowardRoark[col]-[col]-[col]Not guilty charter[col]-[col]Seaside (no ability)[col]- Kison[col]Cop[col]-[col]-

All players (color = death confirms alignment, white = claims)

[mrow]Player[col]Alignment[col]Individual Power[col]Group[col]Group powers[col]Cop result? ThAdmiral[col]Italian[col]Doctor[col]Italy[col]?[col]- Tubby[col]Town[col]-[col]Mason[col]Bodyguard[col]Not guilty darkdude[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- roflcopter[col]Town[col]-[col]Mason[col]Bodyguard[col]- ekiM[col]?[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- iam[col]Russian[col]1-shot vig[col]Russia[col]?[col]- alvinz[col]Russian[col]Multitasker[col]Russia,Upper[col]?,?[col]Guilty skitzer[col]Town[col]Comp Miller Vig[col]-[col]-[col]Guilty populartajo[col]?[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]Not guilty Seraphim[col]?[col]NK-immune[col]Lower[col]Solo vig[col]- Mufasa[col]Town[col]Protective JoAT[col]-[col]-[col]- Korts[col]Town[col]Investigative JoAT[col]-[col]-[col]- inHim[col]Italian[col]Godfather[col]Italy,Upper[col]?,?[col]- X[col]SK[col]Vig,Godfather,2*BP[col]Lower[col]Solo vig[col]- Lowell/Mix[col]?[col]-[col]Seaside[col]-[col]- Dust[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- HowardRoark[col]?[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]Not guilty Starbuck[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- charter[col]?[col]-[col]Seaside[col]-[col]- Spyrex[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- Kison/Caboose[col]?[col]Cop[col]-[col]-[col]- Axelrod[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- OGB[col]Russian[col]1-shot vig[col]Russia[col]?[col]-

[ekiM]

Seraphim, did you take a shot last night? If so at whom?

Kison, result?

[ekiM]

Public information:

Living player claims:

[mrow]Player[col]Role[col]Neighborhood[col]Cop result? ekiM[col]-[col]-[col]- populartajo[col]Backup Cop[col]-[col]Not guilty Seraphim[col]NK Immune[col]Lower Roccisi (solo vigilante)[col]- HowardRoark[col]-[col]-[col]Not guilty charter[col]-[col]Seaside (no ability)[col]- Kison[col]Cop[col]-[col]-

All players (color = death confirms alignment, white = claims)

[mrow]Player[col]Alignment[col]Individual Power[col]Group[col]Group powers[col]Cop result? ThAdmiral[col]Italian[col]Doctor[col]Italy[col]?[col]- Tubby[col]Town[col]-[col]Mason[col]Bodyguard[col]Not guilty darkdude[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- roflcopter[col]Town[col]-[col]Mason[col]Bodyguard[col]- ekiM[col]?[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- iam[col]Russian[col]1-shot vig[col]Russia[col]?[col]- alvinz[col]Russian[col]Multitasker[col]Russia,Upper[col]?,?[col]Guilty skitzer[col]Town[col]Comp Miller Vig[col]-[col]-[col]Guilty populartajo[col]?[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]Not guilty Seraphim[col]?[col]NK-immune[col]Lower[col]Solo vig[col]- Mufasa[col]Town[col]Protective JoAT[col]-[col]-[col]- Korts[col]Town[col]Investigative JoAT[col]-[col]-[col]- inHim[col]Italian[col]Godfather[col]Italy,Upper[col]?,?[col]- X[col]SK[col]Vig,Godfather,2*BP[col]Lower[col]Solo vig[col]- Lowell/Mix[col]Town[col]-[col]Seaside[col]-[col]- Dust[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- HowardRoark[col]?[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]Not guilty Starbuck[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- charter[col]?[col]-[col]Seaside[col]-[col]- Spyrex[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- Kison/Caboose[col]?[col]Cop[col]-[col]-[col]- Axelrod[col]Town[col]-[col]-[col]-[col]- OGB[col]Russian[col]1-shot vig[col]Russia[col]?[col]-

[ekiM]

Kison, result?

Not surprised to see X was scum, but him being SK means there was an extra NK attempt each night. Changes things up a bit, more later.

[ekiM]

With six players left I think the right move is to not lynch today. If we do that, we shouldn't discuss anything else to avoid informing the scum. Also if we finish today quickly we can bank some time for tomorrow.

Vote: No Lynch

[ekiM]

Why are you bringing up odds then dismissing them as irrelevant?

[ekiM]

Kison, can you hammer No Lynch, please? Unless you have some compelling reason not to.

[ekiM]

The sooner we finish today the more time we bank for tomorrow. Kison already supported NL so unless he's changed his mind he should hammer it ASAP.

The only people not supporting NL were you and HowardRoark and neither one of you gave a reason.

[ekiM]

Hi, been busy this weekend.

I only see two reasons why Kison would still be alive: because he's scum or because the last scum doesn't fear his investigation. Presumably because they're a Godfather.

I will go back and look at the Italian interactions and events to see which looks more likely. I do think a team of Godfather, Cop, and Doctor is a lot more thematically plausible than two Godfathers and a Doctor. "Corrupt city government" kind of deal.

The roleblocker story seems fishy. Wouldn't they have used it much before? Unless it's some kind of scum JoAT, hmm.

I wonder at the speed of the votes today, before everyone even checked in, but I guess it's highly unlikely that we're somehow in LYLO.

More in-depth analysis later. We do have nearly 2 weeks today so we have a bit of breathing room.

[ekiM]

Oh, duh. So if he's telling the truth then the last scum must have roleblocking powers somehow, but not have been using them on him until now. That doesn't strike me as very likely.

Hmm, let's try and draw some conclusions about things. First of all, I think it's pretty much certain we have only one scum left, and he is Italian. Anything else makes no damn sense at all, balance wise. If I'm wrong here and we're in LYLO then I'll feel pretty dumb, but I don't think I am.

Kison reported an innocent on Howard. For Howard to be scum, Howard would have to be a Godfather AND have an ability to roleblock somehow. That would be very weird (Doc, Godfather, Godfather+Roleblocker hybrid? Really? Or the mafia have a final chance roleblock?).Throwing that one out via Occam's razor. Howard is probably not scum. I wish he would show up and contribute though.

For charter to be scum he would have to have a roleblock power and have been willing to let Kison live this far. I don't see why he would do that. He was a plausible target for investigation, especially on the night when Lowell got shot by Sera. (If scum had a roleblock why didn't they roleblock tubby and shoot the cop way back when?) (Nice how two "cop investigations" went to people who died that night...). I haven't been liking charter's play these last few whatevers but I don't see why he would risk living Kison alive this far. I think this logic also rules me out as scum.

For Seraphim to be scum he would have access to a roleblock, and have been put in the Lower 'hood, and be some kind of multitasker or have a free action (there were 2 shots on the night he shot lowell [I think they would've mentioned if the kill was free, because it would make each other's claims to have no active powers HIGHLY suspect]). (Cop considerations being ignored here because we collectively pseudo-confirmed X and Sera so they weren't at risk of investgation. that turned out well...). Why put an italian mafia member in a 'hood where they have to play an elaborate game to get a 1-shot vig, when russians get 2 for nothing? Also, X only reported being shot one night, late on. I think we can believe if Sera is scum X would've been shot at earlier (although this would explain the lack of an Italian NK on N1??? but why would X lie then, just to screw us over? actually he should've reported being shot when he was alive, to DAMN sera, and get himself an extra kill, I don't see why he wouldn't do that). I think Sera is town too.

Which leaves Kison. I thought his explanations were good earlier, but I can't really see how this all fits together if the scum is anyone other than him.

Kison, you've barely posted today. What is your theory for who is scum then?

[ekiM]

I think the simplest explanation is that Kison is scum. I think the only thing that wouldn't lead me to vote for him today would be if he could come up with some more plausible explanation for how things have gone down. He doesn't seem to be interested in posting though.

I'll give it a couple of days so Kison or HR can say anything they might want to say, then I'll hammer.

[ekiM]

I would like to hear from HR...

Kison, why did you investigate Lowell? Wasn't it pretty likely he would be the vigged? I was expecting an investigation on one of me or charter.

Why wouldn't you have been shot that night? Why was Tajo killed instead of you? Why was Spyrex shot over you? If there was a roleblocker why didn't they block tubby and kill you then? So many nights of you not dying while being a claimed cop, with so many scum kills still floating around. The only reason I see is if there was a GF+RB combo in the Italian team, and that just seems very far-fetched.

Why the investigations on tubby and lowell? "Oh, I got an innocent on the guy who died" not once but twice smells bad.

Caboose's early game play would make more sense as town cop than scum cop, but maybe he was just not playing optimally. Or relying on his Doctor. Who then died. And then he announced himself as cop, painting a target on himself... but never got taken down? Huh? Confusing...

Charter, why did you push for a lynch instead of NL yesterday? Why was that better?

I guess X, as SK, would've tried to kill Seraphim once. So he must have NK immunity and be telling the truth? If he's a roleblocker scum I am not going to be amused.

HO hum.

[ekiM]

Why am I scummy?

[ekiM]

Unexpected V/LA until the 19th (Wednesday). No access. Sorry..

[ekiM]

Oh, we won! Awesome

This game was very fun for me. Funnst game on this site so far, in fact. I think there were two reasons for this: the set-up and modding; and the activity of the town. This was my first large game and there were fewer lurkers and replacements than some of the smaller games I've played! Two "real" replacement in a game this size is great! And I think people stayed active because the set-up was very interesting.

I think it was a bit of a shame that so many of the scum got wiped out so fast, it made it more of a mechanical town win than a scumhunting exericse. X lynch was a natural plan, scum cop screwed himself over early on. IAUN did well but caught a stray bullet. I wonder if the cop-doc-godfather team was a bit underpowered. If I read the roles right, they didn't have a night kill unti only one was left? I'd much favor the gun-toting Russians, there.

Special kudos to Kison there. A great performance... in a doomed cause!

Oh, and one point I only noticed after the final flip... the cop just happened to investigate one of the scum's neighbourhood partner N0. This should have been a big red flag, but everyone missed it!

Many thanks to TDC and all my fellow players. Hope to play with you soon!

/pre-in for Roccisi winter...

[ekiM]

Any chance of quicktopics?