Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[MeMe]

vote: gootentag

It is

Day 1. 11 people live; 6 to lynch.

Mod, you might want to change the count to 8 alive, 5 to lynch. Not trying to tell you how to do your job, but.....

[MeMe]

Is there any reason not to have a cop come forwards if they think they’ve found someone who is mafia? Conversely, is there any reason to have a cop come forwards if they haven’t?

Well, in this theme the one

obvious

cop (Javert) may not judge correctly. Although I'd assume Javert to be on the side of the town, I wouldn't trust his judgment completely. After all, he identified someone incorrectly as being Jean Valjean and pursued Jean Valjean mercilessly despite the fact that JV had changed his ways. He even commits suicide because he realizes that the law, to which he'd dedicated his life, isn't always just.

So, basically, I'm against the cop coming out at this time -- though I might have to reconsider if someone has a cop role and is

not

named Javert.

[MeMe]

Come on, that's too easy. How about the Thenardiers?

Looking a little eager there, LML.

[MeMe]

LML - your "style," if you're town, could kind of hurt things. My post about Javert was crafted in such a way because of two specific reasons.

1) Javert,

if

scum, should feel as though the town would be receptive to the possibility of him NOT being scum. Say you're right and he's mafia -- well your attitude will certainly scare him away from claiming. Town is in need of information and we're certainly not going to get it from Javert if you're screaming "

scum

" at his role.

2) I think that Aelyn has an affection for Javert as he's been sporting lyrics from his suicide song in his signature for quite some time. I think that anyone who truly understands Javert realizes that he was always driven to uphold the law -- not to break it.

The Thenardiers are

definitely

scuzzy. From anyone's viewpoint.

[MeMe]

Read and seen several times, though I'm not at all sure why this would matter. The mod provided a link to needed information in the sign-up queue, so I'm pretty sure even someone totally ignorant of the story would have adequate claiming potential (though I've not checked the link myself).

EmpTyger -- I'm not sure if you've actually got a question about the second quote attributed to me in your last post...it may have been worded sloppily but I think the meaning should be clear. I'll attempt to clarify, regardless.

--I don't think that Javert need expose himself. If he's a cop, an investigation result of "guilty" can't be trusted, in my opinion...and an investigation result of "innocent" shouldn't be revealed at this point.
--In general, I'm against cops coming forward on Day 1 even with a guilty investigation because 1) sanity is always in question (unless the role specifically states sanity) and 2) we can never be sure they'll be protected, even if sanity is known. But, in a smallish game like this, if there

is

a cop with a role name other than Javert and they think they've found a guilty, it might be a decent idea to have them come forward -- it's an unusual situation, though, and I'm not about to demand it.

And I'll also just come right out and say that I'm fully against mass role claims on Day One and strategizing ways to break a set-up in any game. I'd prefer to deduce scum through their posts rather than to expose a possibly flawed set-up (which is what a set-up that rewards tactics such as these would have to be).

[MeMe]

Eh, perhaps I am metagaming too much, although I guess I see it like your speculating on the translation between character and role in the case of Javert. Part of the game.

Let me remind you that I was responding to

your

idea about the possibility of the cop coming forward.

I’d rather wait until hearing everyone’s answer before answering your "why would this matter" question, if that’s alright?

I don't mind waiting -- but for someone doing a lot of heavy questioning, it's a bit odd that you seem to be avoiding answering one.

In [10] you said you weren’t sure whether a non-Javert cop should come forward, but would reconsider if someone was a non-Javert cop. I was pointing out if someone came forward then there is no longer anything to consider- the non-Javert cop has already come forward! So it seemed you left it ambiguous whether a non-Javert cop should come forward, so I asked for clarification. Which you kind of did in [20], although you still are hedging.

Well your explanation here is exactly what I thought it was...nitpicking at my words. There's no way you can honestly say that I'm "hedging," I went out of my way to be perfectly clear about what my meaning was. Or are you still confused? Be specific about your allegation of "hedging" -- if you can't, I'll have to wonder why you're trying so hard to make me look less than forthcoming.

1) sanity is always in question (unless the role specifically states sanity)<snip>

Pardon my inexperience, because I feel silly for bringing up something that seems very obvious. But, I mean, wouldn’t it defeat the purpose of insanity for the role to specifically say so?

I'll pardon your inexperience, but your tone is beginning to feel less innocently inquisitive and more accusatory. Sanity is always in question unless the role specifically states sanity. The only specificity I've ever seen in a cop role is "you are guaranteed sane" or the like. Did you really think I was suggesting that a role might say "you are paranoid" or "you are reverse"? And why didn't you consider it from the "you are sane" angle rather than the ridiculous "you are insane" one? Again, it feels as though you're working hard to make me look bad, but you're having to bend over backward to do so.

vote: gootentag

<snip>

This wasn’t explicitly labeled as random. Was it?

What's the purpose of asking "was it"? You can see perfectly well that it wasn't.

[MeMe]

Regarding the lack of signifier in my first vote...check my games. In the last 30+ I've played I've used "random" once and "randomish" once. There's nothing

necessarily

to glean from it, though reactions to its simplicity can be interesting.

[MeMe]

I think the most likely is a team of two -- the town would have to be extremely strong to have a chance of combatting any of the other possibilities (group of three or 2 killers/killing groups). The fact that we've had a townie die makes the likelihood of a 2-person group feel more solid since we know that not every pro-town role is powered.

gootentag's last post makes me happy to keep my vote on him.

[MeMe]

Hmmm...could you please list these "facts," Lee?

The only ones I know is that we have a minor character (townie) down.

[MeMe]

*one

[MeMe]

1 is not a fact, it's speculation
2 is exactly the conclusion I've put forth as most likely...but which you characterized as futile discussion of mafia statistics rather than of facts in your last post

[MeMe]

Perhaps MeMe and LML could put their claws away and concentrate on finding scum instead of scratching each other's eyes out.

My goodness -- I haven't even gotten heated up in this game. I'm pretty surprised my posts are being characterized in such a way.

[MeMe]

LordKrishna seems to be keeping quite the low profile so far...especially in comparison to the level of chat from almost everyone else (except gootentag, who has my vote and will continue to enjoy that privilege for the time being).

[MeMe]

gootentag - you're my original vote and, so far, no one has stood out as being suspicious enough for me to switch to them, nor have you looked so ultra-innocent as to make me want to budge. I have got my eyes and ears open -- so it's not an "insistence" on voting for you, it's that I'd rather be voting than not voting and I think you're at least as suspicious as anyone else in the game right now.

The post to which I referred had two particular points I found interesting.

This is mistaken. Half is not a majority, and I've seen it work out before in a situation with a mafia of 2, a Serial Killer, and a townie of some sort being left. If a Day two mafia lynch occurs (which is unlikely but possible,) the remaining mafia and the SK could kill each other and the town would win. Like I said, unlikely, but possible.

This raised my eyebrows...it's feels like a reassurance -- like "well, the situation you describe isn't

that

dire and let me show you how it could be OK." Although you call a win unlikely, you do attempt to put forth the theory that losing pro-town roles could still result in town survival. Just interesting and, in my experience, wrong -- I'm pretty interested in where you've seen this "work out before," so please provide a link.

As for the Javert implications, I guess we can put them aside for now. Without either him or another cop showing up dead or alive, it's all speculation anyway. And assumptions can lead to bad things - like in Harry Potter Mafia where it was later discovered that Harry, Hermione, and Ron were the mafia. (NOTE: I haven't read the game, just heard it referenced several times before as a classic case of "Don't outguess the Mod.") I mean, it's

possible

that Jean Valjean - prisoner 24601 - is scum, right? I mean, he is a convicted theif and robber, amirite?

Here you say the Javert talk should be put aside because, hey, it's just speculation. Then you go on, in almost the same breath, to come up with a speculation of your own about Jean Valjean.

If I didn't already have my vote on you, I don't know that these comments would have been enough to make me switch, but they're certainly enough to make me stay.

[MeMe]

~doesn't need a prod~

[MeMe]

vikingfan:
4 posts, all short. To summarize:<snip>
I’m not as anti-speculation as others in this game, but speculation by itself does not count as contributing. Honestly, my biggest surprise is that MeMe missed you in [62] when she noted Krishna and gootentag had been keeping low profiles.

I mentioned this earlier, in my posted reply to MeMe:

I put it to you that in addition to me and gootentag, Mr Stoofer and vikingfan are also less 'post-happy'

but it didn't seem to raise an eyebrow from her. This looks rather odd to me, that she'd miss out on that, after having made such an exhaustive search on the rest of us.

I made a search...though not "exhaustive" on

everyone

. And -- hey, boys and girls -- you can too! Just use the handy-dandy "view all posts by" drop down menu at the bottom of the page and voila! You'll be in the know

just like MeMe

!

At the time of my post on the subject, the counts were:

Changling Bob - 5
EmpTyger - 10
gootentag - 2
LordKrishna - 2
LoudmouthLee - 10 (+ one double)
MeMe - 11 (+ one immediate clarification)
Mr Stoofer - 5 (+ one double)
vikingfan - 4

So, I believe I was justified in singling out goot & LK as the ones most lacking in the contribution department. Now:

one

of you picking on me for leaving out a name or two you think I should have included though they'd had at least double the posts of the two I did mention? Kind of interesting. But

two

of you? Well, that starts to look like opportunism, especially since LK has chosen to reiterate the point after ET raised it anew. It doesn't hurt that it takes a little pressure off of you if someone starts questioning the person who pointed out your lack of productivity in the first place, eh LK? And, since we're on the subject -- why did you leave CB out of your two additions, LK? He had the same number of posts as Stoofer, who you considered worthy of mention.

EmpTyger -- I also find your terming my vote on gootentag as "cryptic" rather odd as I'd just explained my reasons for not caring to switch at this point. And you playing at being game savior just makes me giggle. I thought you might have something specific to share and was happily waiting for that. Next time just say "back tomorrow" rather than making it sound like you had something ready to say. Regardless, I'd been one of the last people to contribute and probably wouldn't have had reason to stick a post up unless someone else added content first.

[MeMe]

I'm not really interested in persuading anyone to vote with me...as I said, I don't know if I'd switch

to

him myself -- but I'm content enough not to switch

from

him at the moment.

I'd consider a vote for vikingfan in future, though.

[MeMe]

Though it almost feels too strong to be true, I don't think there's any room to disbelieve the claim (unless there's a counter). Alignment could be in question since they were revolutionaries...but having Graintaire revealed as town makes it sensible to assume (at this point, anyway) that both Enjolras and Marius should be too.

I prefer that Enjolras not be revealed. There are other suspects to pursue without pushing more information out of viking.

[MeMe]

MeMe and bob voiced suspicions

Where is this suspicion that you say bob has voiced? My interpretation of bob's comments is that he seems to have gone quite far out of his way to

not

voice a suspicion against vikingfan and to get attention elsewhere. He's attempted, twice, to prod vikingfan into more active participation -- which is exactly what a mason might do for a partner who's getting attention for sitting back, eh?

I prefer that Enjolras not be revealed. There are other suspects to pursue without pushing more information out of viking.

If vikingfan is telling the complete truth, Enjolras might be revealed already...

Well, exactly. And, if viking's telling the truth, the only possibility for the Enjolras role is Changling bob, in my opinion -- something I wasn't eager to point out so blatantly. But as you, through this rather large hint, have kind of ruined any possibility of keeping his identity under wraps for those who

hadn't

yet figured out that the identity could be uncovered through simple deduction...I don't see any reason not to just say it out loud now myself.

Anyway, since Cb has said in his pursuit of LoudmouthLee...

According to my admittedly limited experience of mafia, there are few times when withholding information is good for the town, with the exception of doc.

[logic]LML is withholding information.
Withholding information (usually) means scum or doc.
Hence, LML is (probably) either scum or doc.
If LML is not scum, he is probably doc, and hence will have a huge target on his back tonight.[/logic]

...there's no way that he can justify not coming forward if he's a mason with viking. If he can't/won't, viking should swing.

[MeMe]

I'm pretty confused about what I'm being asked to weigh-in on.

[MeMe]

Is that, indeed, the subject about which you were asking, LK? Seems odd, if so. Why would you need everyone to comment on something easily answered by one?

[MeMe]

Here's the thing, LK -- masons have come to mean next-to-nothing on this board (which I consider a real shame). It used to be that when someone claimed mason they were automatically left alone for at least a day because it's such a strong, provable, pro-town claim. Macros introduced the concept of mixed-alignment groups in Normal #15 and they've been used several times since (twice in games I've played: Min4 & Christmas).

That said -- a pro-town mason team in a 9-person game is

very

(almost too?) strong. A pro-town team with recruitment/searching/revolution-starting powers seems stronger still. And yet, an anti-town team with the powers they claim in a game this small is even

less

likely as scum need only to get majority numbers while the rest of us must eradicate scum completely. Basically, if they were both scum, why would they admit/invent all of the powers they claim? I believe they'd have said "masons" and left it at that.

In my opinion, their claims say to me that one or both of them are pro-town. If they're both pro-town, their powers are probably dangerous. Perhaps if Eponine finds Cosette, Ep dies (as she did in book). Perhaps if they incite a revolution, something horrible happens...I have to guess that what seems like strength is actually danger or the game's out of whack. If only one of them is town, well -- their powers could just be "as is," but benefiting the scum as much as they do the town.

All of this is speculation and "don't outguess the mod" seems a prudent mantra on Day 1. If I were the sole decision-maker, I'd take both of the masons off of the "to lynch" list today since I don't think it makes sense for them both to be scum...but I'd certainly keep a close eye on them and read morning reports with their claimed abilities in mind.

[MeMe]

3) LML was extremely evasive about claiming- but in [119] revealed that he is Cosette unprompted.

Very

interesting point.

[MeMe]

I'll join you in that.

unvote: gootentag
vote: LmL

I'm especially interested in the fact that he's been absent in this thread for several days while posting elsewhere.

[MeMe]

Here's what I don't like... Meme's first and only unvote is a vote to me, even after I claimed.

If you can come up with ANY idea, MeMe, about how Cosette is Mafia, please let me know.

Interesting that you pick me out of those voting for you for retaliation...but I'll step up to your challenge:

1) Cosette is the reason Fantine worked herself to the bone and, ultimately, died
2) Cosette is the reason Valjean was ever exposed to the Thenardiers in the first place
3) Rescuing Cosette is the reason Valjean escaped from his proper punishment the second time
4) Caring for Cosette is the reason that Valjean must live under an assumed identity
5) Cosette is the reason the Marius is distracted from his revolutionary work
6) It is in returning from delivering a message to Cosette that Eponine is killed (I think I'm remembering this timing correctly)
7) It is for Cosette that Marius pushes Valjean out of their lives and into loneliness at the end of the book.

But, let me be clear, it is

your behavior

I find scummish -- not your role or I'd have voted for you the minute you claimed. I find your attempt to wave your name as your sole defense ridiculous. Cosette may not be evil incarnate, but I'd say she's, at best, a neutral character who acts as a catalyst for much misfortune. After it was pointed out that you claimed your name quickly after the masons came out despite the fact that you'd earlier threatened that we wouldn't be happy if we "forced" you to it makes me wonder what result being "found" will have...and that you refuse to give us a hint about what will happen worries me. If you're pro-town and don't

know

what will happen, I think it should worry

you

as well.

If you feel it necessary to get the entirity of my role, lynch me. If you're pro-town, you're making a huge mistake.

And I think this is interesting. Again a threat and a refusal to provide details about your role. If you've got a power role (as you claim) then withholding it until death is simply childish.

and, PS: I'm *not* a mason with Viking. He needs to find me.

Maybe he needs to find a different witty girl to go to his bed.

And though I'm pretty sure this was an attempt at humor...I'll just point out that in no way could Cosette be characterized as either witty or likely to go to bed with anyone other than Marius.

Triple post- Posting elsewhere and not here? Mainly because I feel the conversations here have been relatively hogwash and running me around in circles. I'm not going to post for the sake of posting. I'll post when I have something to say.

Ridiculous. When conversation is "hogwash" pro-town players should say so and try to figure out why and who is perpetuating said hogwash. That you're dismissing the contributions with a wave of your hand to excuse your lurking is not only insulting but, from what I've seen, also out of character for you. I'd have a easier time believing "I forgot about the game" than for you to assert that you deliberately ignored the game as a whole for more than five days and specific accusations against you for more than two because you didn't deem them worthy of response.

I'm feeling pretty good about the location of my vote at the moment.

[MeMe]

Hmmm. Looking back over Lee's posts I can buy his claim that he was attempting to draw mafia fire by claiming to have power that the town would be sorry to lose...and it does make sense thematically for Cosette to be more heavily protected than anyone else.

Of course, as has been already brought up, claiming to be unkillable explains surviving the night if mafia. I'll go ahead and add that it's an

especially

good claim for an SK to make because it causes mafia to aim elsewhere out of fear of wasting a kill while making town unwilling to lynch the claimant as well. And I'm not saying that Cosette's likely to be an SK -- just pointing out the merits of the claim if she

were

.

Anyway....

unvote: Loudmouth

for now.

viking: I'm confused. You went from wondering whether it was a good idea to search for Cosette given the possibility that Loudmouth is scum to stating that you would absolutely do so tonight. Why? I'm also curious about the use of "recruit" (which you corrected right after) and the possibility of it being a Freudian slip. At the moment I still think it's sound to keep you two masons out of the noose...but your recent posts have made me wonder what's going on.

Perhaps there are also 3 Mafia? (!)

I still don't see this as plausible. One wrong lynch today (the day most likely for a wrong lynch to occur) and a successful mafia kill tonight would make the numbers 3 scum to 3 town -- game over.

And LK, point taken about LmL possibly talking about someone other than Cosette (though I did recognize the song, I just thought he was referring to

himself

as a witty girl who gets around).

[MeMe]

Basically, I didn’t feel his actions pre-claim made sense for the role he’s claiming, nor do I understand why he is so shocked that people are disbelieving him. In retrospect, maybe I should have simply said that.

Interesting that you and I have voiced opposite reactions on this.

[MeMe]

If your role makes it "pretty obvious" who the scum are, it makes sense to me that you'd have been interested in encouraging claims rather than quashing them.

So, how do you explain...

* I am against any sort of role/character claim at this stage for many reasons including the fact that trying to outguess the mod's allocation of characters to roles is pointless.

and

Vote: the next person to speculate as to the role which the mod has assigned to any character from the book

.

...?

Your earlier emphatic "don't do it" attitude about role discussion doesn't seem to jive with your current claim to know which roles are scum roles.

Regardless, if making a "detailed" claim of your role is what you wanna do, I'm willing to hear you out.

[MeMe]

Since I'm still uneasy about lynching either of the masons and I lean more toward believing LmL's actions back up his claim than not, I'm gonna go back to where I was before all the excitement...

vote: gootentag

However, Mr Stoofer has suddenly become a person of interest as well. As I said, his early play doesn't jive with his claim that his role gives him information...and he backed down way too quickly after gootentag ranted at him, in my opinion.

But the rant itself seemed more than a little off to me. Gootentag starts by saying that Stoofer's plan could only work IF the scum are roles that are generally considered innocent...and, um, they very well

might

be, as far as anyone but Stoofer should know. I don't understand why gootentag would rant when he's obviously aware that there's a workable scenario (e.g., if Stoofer thinks his role tells him that, say, Fantine and Eponine are scum). It's true that no one is going to be eager to claim scummy-sounding names...but they may have been willing to claim innocent-sounding ones before before gootentag sounded off what could be interpreted as a warning.

Basically, I just don't see the reason to quash Stoofer's plan before finding out what he thinks he knows. Either Stoofer's scum or the information he claims to have could help us.

[MeMe]

But if Stoofer is telling the truth, than it is no longer a workable scenario, because the scum would know to avoid claiming names Stoofer knows are scummy (their own.)

My interpretation of this...

1. My role PM makes it pretty obvious who the scum are. Everyone could claim their names and then we would either have our scum or 1 or more liars. Of course, this option requires some trust to be placed in me. [I would have to make a detailed claim first.]

...was that Stoofer's plan was for him to give a detailed claim of his role -- without exposing the names of the roles he believes to be scum -- and then, if majority wanted to proceed (i.e. agreed that his role seemed pro-town/sane/whatever), we'd all claim OUR names...and then he'd tell us which were scum according to his role. That was just my logical assumption based on the "duh" factor that Stoofer saying the names

first

wouldn't have a chance in hell of working.

Now...in light of my interpretation of Stoofer's plan, it was YOUR post that removed any possibility of it being effective. Of course, Stoofer agreed with you immediately -- so it's possible that he's truly the bad player you accuse him of being and that your post wasn't an attempt to ruin a plan that could have worked well for the town...but the problem with that is that

predicting

that Stoofer would agree with you would have been some feat, which is why I still think that your post is questionable. You neither considered the plan that I thought was obvious nor questioned Stoofer further before assuming the plan was broken. If you consider it from my point of view, my conclusion makes perfect sense. But if you prefer to dismiss me with a roll of your eyes rather than to explore any possibility that there's logic behind the things I post, well -- that's certainly easier on you than typing out a sentence, eh?

Now -- let's look at it from the perspective you're claiming to have: for you, Stoofer's plan post not only doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever...it also goes completely against his early-game posts. Explain to me how your stated conclusion about him is that he's "not acting scummy just yet" but rather just playing bad. I'd have thought that, from your claimed understanding, you'd have been ready to vote him...or at least have found his quick claim of idiocy and agreement to be rather convenient.

[MeMe]

I agree with MeMe: a Therardier-based mafia seems more likely.

I’m Thenardier.

Thanks. That makes things SO much easier.

unvote: gootentag
vote: EmpTyger

[MeMe]

heh.

[MeMe]

The lynchee is incredibly obvious -- now get in here and vote EmpTyger.

Paraphrasing:
"Thenardier as mafia? Sounds right"
"I'm Thenardier"
"Um...Just joking!"

[MeMe]

MeMe: Here, have an April's fool block of cheese. It might make you feel better for being made a fool. And while your at it, will you kick yourself in the teeth so I don't have to?

Please read the post in which EmpTyger claims to be Thenardier: he claims. Then he fills out the rest of the post with questions and suspicions.

Now, I admit that I wavered for a minute when he claimed to be fooling -- but then I asked myself...

1) Would any good player (which EmpTyger definitely is) deliberately introduce confusion as a joke?
2) Would a "joke" claim contain detailed role mechanics?
3) Would a player who thought a joke was so funny that it was

worth

the confusion it would cause make the joke harder to spot by bundling actual game play in with the joke?

In my opinion, no to all of the above. I think this is a simple case of EmpTyger forgetting his earlier post. If he remembered what he'd said, why leave it to someone else to find the contradiction...thereby making it necessary for someone to vote him and make the joke

for

him? Seems he's banking an awful lot on someone else's detective skills. And what if everyone had just bought the claim without a blink? He would have been in the uncomfortable position of having to say..."um, hey -- that was a joke back there that nobody got. I'm not really Thenardier. Heh." You can disagree with me, Bob -- but buying it as a joke without giving it a second glance while disparaging the intelligence of someone who chooses to take every post seriously is extremely questionable for a pro-town player.

If I'm wrong, it's EmpTyger who should be getting abuse hurled at him for his reckless play. Regardless, I will probably avoid playing games with you, Bob, in future. Your comment was not only unnecessarily abusive, it totally neglected the fact that I have a pretty good mind and that I consider every post. My vote remains on EmpTyger because that's where I think it should be.

EmpTyger -- I find you saying that I'm trying to manufacture suspicion against you "out of nothing" when the source material is your own claim pretty funny. So, yes -- I've got a sense of humor.

[MeMe]

EmpTyger is so drippily scummy that it's incredible to me that he's not been lynched yet.

Please vote him.

[MeMe]

I'm

Valjean. I was rather hoping that ET would be lynched because of his obvious scumminess rather than me having to counter-claim – but oh well. Though I have a pretty good chance of dying tonight, I think dead scum on day one is a pretty good trade.

I'm not going to waste too much more time trying to prove what I was pretty sure about after his first claim...and absolutely positive of after his second (extremely clever) claim. It was a no-lose gamble from his perspective...either JV's not in the game and he skates with his false claim or he forces the real Jean Valjean out. And no, I'm not going to claim role mechanics.

So. Lynch him. There should be no hemming and hawing about this from anyone other than EmpTyger. Look with suspicion on any who come to his defense and/or don't vote him immediately. If I DO get lynched today, put those who vote me at the top of your lynching list -- right after EmpTyger, of course.

After all, you'd have me dead to rights tomorrow if I were the liar who got ET lynched -- so this would make an extremely silly move for me if I were scum. But, like I said, if EmpTyger and any cohorts convince the town players among you to take me out first, don't you

dare

let them talk themselves out of culpability tomorrow.

[MeMe]

Stoofer - to answer the "6B" question about why I claimed...

There were only three votes on EmpTyger. LmL said that he was very close to unvoting EmpTyger. If he'd have done so, ET wouldn't have the votes necessary to lynch at deadline.

There were also several "well he's not been counterclaimed..." comments that made waiting almost impossible. If I'd not made sure of his lynch today (when I know he's scum), I'd not only be acting irresponsibly in a game this small, but I'd also have a hard time convincing anyone of my role tomorrow. Only my overnight death would have cinched his lynch day two, but I couldn't bank on being targeted and, even if I were, there'd still have been quite a bit of cursing my name at not coming forward on day one.

[MeMe]

The deadline passed a little more than 5 hours ago.

[MeMe]

and since nobody has come foreward with a counterclaim as Valjean, I am prone to believe EmpTyger at this point, which seems to be back at square one.

Update, please?

[MeMe]

And I believe

this

is the current count:

EmpTyger

(4)

LoudmouthLee, MeMe, vikingfan, Mr Stoofer

LoudmouthLee

(1)

Changling Bob

MeMe

(1)

Emptyger

Not voting: gootentag, LordKrishna

[MeMe]

I have to admit I'm a little bothered by the fact that an announced deadline has come and gone without confirmation from the mod on whether or not it stands (though the thread title still has us as under deadline).

Please don't let EmpTyger talk himself out of his rightful place in the noose. As I said before, I'm looking very carefully at those who have commented since my counterclaim without voting him. No reason for delay. It's him or me...by our actions in the game before the claim/counter-claim, I think it's not an over-generalization to say that he was more suspected than I.

gootentag -- why haven't you voted for EmpTyger?
LK -- why haven't you voted for EmpTyger?

In fairness to Changling bob, he's not posted since I claimed -- so that could be his reason for not voting yet. We'll see what he does when he gets here.

[MeMe]

somehow an obvious joke I’ve made is being taken as the ultimate sign of evil

No - your "joke" was taken as a

probable

sign of evil. Claiming my role is a

sure

(though still not "ultimate") sign of evil.

So in any case,

this clears bob and vikingfan

. Since both bob and vikingfan would have to be mafia together,

I must have missed the part where we all decided that bob and vikingfan would "have to be mafia together." Mind pointing me to it?

Perhaps if Eponine finds Cosette, Ep dies (as she did in book).

This is *not* what happened in the book.

Well, yeah it did. Ep delivered a message to Cosette from Marius and then went on to die. I did not say that Eponine died as a result of finding Cosette. But she does die

after

finding her.

The only connection is temporal, and as to that, you might as well say that if Eponine finds Cosette, Javert or Gavroche or Valjean dies.

Yes - they die after that event as well. But as it was claimed that Marius sends Eponine to find Cosette, I thought the most likely scenario of danger would be to one of those three -- and since Eponine is the only one of the three who winds up dead, it seems plausible (much more so than Javert or Gavroche dying, anyway).

So the only conclusion I can draw is that she was trying to discourage the masons from using their abilities.

Yep - I was pretty clear about that. If the town has as much power as their claimed abilities imply, using them is dangerous. However, I still think it's possible that one or the other could be scum. Again, please remind me if this possibility has somewhere been disproven.

Please, after my death, reread the thread and reevaluate immediately- don’t wait until tomorrow; do it before your night choices.

Please, after his death, pause to admire the beauty of his attempts to stay alive.

No reason for delay.

Finally, for what it’s worth, let me again point out how anxious MeMe has been to rush my lynch. If she were town, wouldn’t she want to have these voting patterns to analyze?

Nope. As I'm on record as saying, I think you're a good player. Since I know you're scum, I want there to be absolutely no chance of you talking yourself out of being lynched. As a player with a pretty good record of talking herself out of "certain" death, I know just how dangerous allowing scum to flap their gums can be.

[MeMe]

So gootentag, you missed your chance to put the lynching vote on EmpTyger and be thought of as more likely innocent than guilty. Bad decision.

I've just sent the game into twilight. Once Aelyn comes back, he should be posting a death scene for Thenardier -- um --

EmpTyger

.

[MeMe]

And please be clear, gootentag. Are you claiming that your role says that you cannot vote? Because that sounds absolutely ridiculous for a pro-town role.

It would mean that, if there are 6 town left and you're one of them, we'd need every single pro-town player who is able to vote to vote unanimously to get scum lynched today...or, if there's one dissenter, exercising my mayoral privilege becomes a NECESSITY.

Which means that if I'd either gotten killed last night or I didn't agree with the majority, it'd have been almost impossible to get scum lynched today.

[MeMe]

I think the others would have ultimately seen the errors in their logic.

You have more faith than I, Loudmouth.

I was banking on the deadline when I claimed and am pretty irritated that it was taken away. There were three people who could have added their vote to the four on EmpTyger...

1) Changling bob -- I can't see him being able to admit that he's the one who'd read EmpTyger's "joke" so completely wrong. I think he would have chosen to vote me first, regardless of his alignment
2) gootentag -- just said he believes EmpTyger more than he believes me
3) LordKrishna -- said "explain or die." EmpTyger's explained. Really well.

Although I know that if I'd been lynched first, Emp would have to do some fast talking to survive tomorrow -- in such a small game I'd rather get a sure scum down

first

. I was just imagining his "MeMe must have been my doppelganger! The one who everyone thought was me!" story tomorrow if I'd been lynched and revealed as Jean Valjean. And, with the way the logic has gone since my claim, he might have pulled it off if he'd tried it.

[MeMe]

It's a role that I don't think makes sense for either side.

But, if you're scum, simply claiming to have a restriction doesn't mean that you actually do. In my experience, mafia have this crazy tendency to lie about what their roles require.

[MeMe]

Above is a response to gootentag.

This is my response to EmpTyger: give it up. You're dead.

[MeMe]

The day was already over -- bailing on a vote wouldn't have mattered.

And alright, Loudmouth, I admit it: you were right -- I'm just too jaded, I guess.

[MeMe]

Welp - I'm suspicious of almost alll y'all. Some, obviously, to a greater degree than others.

Yesterday I believed it to be an almost sure thing that we couldn't have more than two scum. The appearance of a suicidal pro-town player sets that almost in concrete.

I'm for a mass claim at this point -- role names first...mechanics if the names haven't told us enough. Any objections?

[MeMe]

Surely Changling Bob and I are confirmed innocent? Bob is confirmed innocent by vikingfan being confirmed as a pro-town mason.

No one can confirm their mason partner as "pro-town" -- I've speculated (as have others, I believe) that the masons may be split in alignment to balance the game. I'm open-minded today.

I am surely innocent based on my repeated attempts to get EmpTyger lynched (which, before you ask, was based entirely on what he was posting).

Attempts that didn't equal a lynch. As I said, some are more suspicious to me than others -- but no one is absolutely cleared in my mind.

That means it must be gootentag or LordKrishna.

Um...well...you're leaving

me

off this list. Which is odd, considering the rest of your post.

I think that this would be a good idea and obviously I'd like nominate LordKrishna to go first. Before we do this, though, why do you think you were not targetted last night - since you were pretty much cleared as a result of your duel with EmpTyger?

The most innocent-looking person in the game often gets doc protection and, correct me if I'm wrong, I think I might have been tagged as such after yesterday.

The only logic in EmpTyger claiming to be Valjean was because he wanted the real Valjean dead. The fact that you are still alive casts a shadow over you, does it not?

It does not. And if you thought it did, I assume you'd have me on your short list of where the mafia "must be." It would have been pretty easy for me to back off of ET yesterday when almost

everyone

believed he was joking (even if they ultimately thought he was scum despite the joke).

Lord Krishna claimed Eponine, didn't he?

I didn't have this in my notes -- and I'm having trouble finding it now. Can you point me toward the claim?

[MeMe]

Oh - and let me clarify the "that didn't result in a lynch" comment (which is confusing on the screen, but clear in my mind).

Your vote/suspicions weren't the cause of him being in the noose. Your vote came after I expressed concerns about the "joke" -- and you removed it when you noticed it put him in danger. At that point, scum had nothing to lose by voting their partner (ET) -- he would be exposed as a liar sooner or later, so pitching in for his demise is not bad play. But it was not your vote/comments that

got

him lynched.

Prior to this, you were FOSing

me

-- that you still seem interested in pursuing that course of suspicion when you've claimed that your role tells you who the scum are (and Valjean ain't one) does nothing to take the sheen of suspicion from you.

[MeMe]

The most innocent-looking person in the game often gets doc protection and, correct me if I'm wrong, I think I might have been tagged as such after yesterday.

How many scum do you think are left? If one person got shot by scum, then there wasn't another scum to try to kill you. I think that it's more likely that there is no doctor (also: Town over-powered issue), and that the scum tried to kill someone else to throw suspicion on you.

If you read my comment in context, you'll see that I wasn't saying I thought I was targeted, but was simply answering Stoofer's question to me about my thoughts on why I

wasn't

. It

could

be to make me look guilty (and Stoofer's line about me still being alive "cast[ing] a shadow" over me indicates that's what

he

thinks it does), but I was offering a viable reason for me not being targeted at all last night: i.e. because scum, if (s)he thought I was the most likely to be protected, wouldn't have wanted to risk wasting a kill.

Based on something quite specific in Marius's death scene, I do

not

think that Eponine is mafia. I still think a mass name claim is a good idea.

[MeMe]

gootentag - are you claiming to

still

be unable to vote?

[MeMe]

@MeMe: Why should gootentag's ability have changed overnight? If he couldn't vote yesterday, why shuold he be able to today?

Let me answer your question

with

a question: why should we assume that his claimed inability to vote would be static throughout the entire game when he's not said that was the case?

For all I know, it changes when there's a certain number of players left...or it was *just* for day one...or he was simply bluffing so that scum would keep him alive as a non-threat...basically, I'd rather him tell me what the deal is than to assume such an odd mechanic would be stagnant.

[MeMe]

I've already claimed...so you're not waiting on me.

[MeMe]

I claimed and used my ability yesterday when I sent the game into early twilight by finishing off EmpTyger myself. Remember?

[MeMe]

Stoofer - the Bishop of Digne is the agent of change for Jean Valjean. As for "stature" -- he kicks off the story, but isn't involved after that (except a mention of his death, which JV observed and mourned). He and Javert are my favorite characters in the book. goot's mechanic makes sense for the role he claimed.

A couple of observations:
--The death scene describes the shooter as a male & a group leader.
--EmpTyger's name is given as simply "Thenardier" -- not Monsieur Thenardier. Because of this, I think it's possible that Madame is not in the game.

[MeMe]

That's a dicey one. Of the names claimed, he's the only one who'd be described as a leader of a group -- and I can't think of any unclaimed main characters who would fit with that description either. Thenardier's the only other possibility and he's dead. In Enjolras's introductory description in the book, it's said that he is "capable of being terrible" and he was openly disdainful of Marius's pursuing of romance during revolutionary times -- the book says "He had but one passion, the right; but one thought, to remove all obstacles.... He was severe in his pleasures. Before everything but the republic, he chastely dropped his eyes. He was the marble lover of liberty. His speech was roughly inspired and had the tremor of a hymn. He astonished you by his soaring. Woe to the love affair that should venture to intrude upon him!" That said, I have a hard time believing that it'd be that simple...that the mod would give us a picture of who we're looking for in the morning scene (but stranger things

have

happened).

I said before that I believe that it would make sense, in a game this size, to balance the sides by splitting the mason group's alignments. I also think that if someone's an evil side of a mason group -- killing his/her partner's not a bad idea as others could say "surely the surviving partner is cleared" (as you did, Stoofer).

I'm also still getting hung up on the fact that it was CB who was the first and most adamant that I'd been taken as a fool yesterday...but that could just be my wounded pride speaking (despite the fact that I've now been proven absolutely correct).

So, I'm not sure enough to be FOSing -- I just wanted to share my most current observations.

[MeMe]

Here is the link from which I took my quotes -- I realize that there are different translations and I don't want to create confusion.

[MeMe]

Stoofer - why don't you go ahead and put all your cards on the table?

gootentag - why don't you tell us who you protected both nights? One course of action we might consider pursuing is to lynch the person he says he's made unlynchable...if that person lives, we're 3-1 tomorrow (unless CB is a hostile recruiter -- see below). If that person dies, gootentag's the obvious scum (comments please -- just something I've been playing around with...don't know if this is workable). However, I'll say that if goot's scum, he must be lying about his role name and probably mechanic as well -- but giving up his vote is quite a commitment for a lie. The Bishop of Digne was not a leader of a sizable group...nor would he ever shoot anyone...the book makes a point to say that he "was not as hostile to insects as a gardener could have wished to see him," which is rather the same as saying he wouldn't hurt a fly.

CB - if you're scum, I have a big problem allowing you to recruit. Since you're the only mason left, it makes sense to me that you'd be recruiting someone into a scum group at this point (again, IF you're scum). This might also explain why your partner would have been killed overnight...perhaps you're recruiting into a mason group when you're both alive, but scum group if only the scum half is surviving? Just a ramble, mind you, but it does worry me.

As for LK -- he's our only claimed cop. I stated on day 1 that I believe that Javert would, thematically, be on the side of the town. I do not believe he commanded a group of men -- but my memory could be fuzzy on this bookwise. In the play, however, he chases Valjean into Fantine's deathroom and struggles with him alone...and infiltrates the group at the barricade alone. When I think of him, I always picture him as a lone figure of absolute law...he kills himself because he cannot live with the fact that he made a just decision which went against the letter of the law.

Basically, if we

must

lynch someone, I think it should be Enjolras over Javert. Since CB's claimed recruiting powers, I think he's the more dangerous.

[MeMe]

You haven't obviously haven't used your power to incite revolution or recruit, but how do we know that you didn't, say, try to recruit LML last night?

I don't agree with it being obvious that he's not used his power to recruit. If he was successful last night, how would those who hadn't been recruited know it unless we were told? I admit that I

doubt

he did so -- but I don't want to assume he didn't.

My power explained: extra, anonymous vote once during the game.

Stoofer: no more beating about -- lay your claim out fully.

[MeMe]

I'm satisfied with Stoofer's explanation. I'm suspicious of Changling bob & LordKrishna.

Cb
--The role name
--The claimed mechanics (if he's town...what if he recruits scum into his group? Just doesn't seem to work except in a cult/scum capacity)
--Backing up EmpTyger yesterday
--And the thing that's catching my eye most prominently at the moment (huge examples in posts 308 & 312): he's admitting that he understands the allegations against him. When I'm town and being unfairly accused, I tend to think my accusers are imbeciles and go to great lengths to explain how what I said is in

no way

scummy...even if I've made errors. Conceding points against oneself looks guilty to me.

LK
--Although I wouldn't personally ever make Javert evil, I'm concerned about his latest post in which he puts forth the theories of 1) EmpTyger and I being the mafia team who concocted the "brilliant" plan of removing one of us from the game on Day 1 thereby securing the win (if there are/were only two scum, as I believe, this would

not

be brilliant) and 2) that Eponine hired an NPC group (which is, though creative, ridiculous thematically as Eponine is destitute). The more he talks, the less comfortable I am that he's to be trusted.

[MeMe]

You haven't obviously haven't used your power to incite revolution or recruit, but how do we know that you didn't, say, try to recruit LML last night?

I don't agree with it being obvious that he's not used his power to recruit.

This is an incorrect interpretation of my earlier statement -- read again, with the word 'obviously' boldfaced, drawing attention to word order:
"Bob, you haven't

obviously

used your power to recruit, but how do we know that you didn't, say, try to recruit LML last night?"

Well, let me show you how the original quote looked...and kindly focus on the words

I've

bolded:

"You

haven't

obviously

haven't

..."

So, sure. When you remove the second "haven't" in your original post, the meaning you're now claiming is clear. But when you remove the first (as I mentally did), it's clear in a DIFFERENT way. Your post was confusing and you've misrepresented it above. I'm not sure why you're trying to lay blame for misunderstanding at my feet when it's easy enough to check where any confusion originated (seeing as you quoted the confusing passage yourself). Why not just admit a typo? Or is this fallout from me saying that innocents, when falsely accused, think their accusers are imbeciles? Huh. Something to ponder...real or put-on?

MeMe, your reasons of being suspicious of me are completely unfounded. Let's take them both apart, shall we?

Although I wouldn't personally ever make Javert evil, I'm concerned about his latest post in which he puts forth the theories of 1) EmpTyger and I being the mafia team who concocted the "brilliant" plan of removing one of us from the game on Day 1 thereby securing the win (if there are/were only two scum, as I believe, this would

not

be brilliant)

Two reasons why this fails as a 'me-being-scum' argument:
1) I didn't put it forth as a theory, I just brought it up as I thought it would be interesting. Everyone seems to be saying that it would make no sense to do this, as (as gootentag put it) it "takes all the weight out of role-claiming").

That's "putting forth" a theory, LK. You're not saying that you believe it -- but you did suggest it as a possibility. Just like I put forth the theory that Enjolras, being a male leader of a group, could be the shooter in the morning scene. I'm not saying that I necessarily

believe

he's the shooter -- but the theory's out there because I put it out there. Why dodge ownership of your own theories?

Let me also point out that you said the only way to test the "hypothesis" would be to "lynch someone and see what happens" (and since I'm the only one left on which to test it -- I think it's reasonable for me to assume you meant "lynch MeMe and see what happens" as a test).

2) Yes, I contend it would be absolutely brilliant. Why? Well, if we lynch Thenardier, then we would all look at point 1, and refuse to lynch Jean Valjean, right? This would be true no matter what day this happens on. Again, I'm not saying this makes you scum, MeMe (as I think it's not likely for Thenardier and Valjean to be scum together), but don't discount it as a bad plan, given the silly setup I posited...

I completely disagree with you here. Surviving day one in a 2 to 7 scum set up would be optimal. Attacking a partner unnecessarily to bring the count to 1 to 5 the next day (as there'd be no way for scum to know there was a suicidal pro-town role) is rather unbrilliant. Again, you're not doing much to make me think you're trustworthy by defending your "silly" set-up and "brilliant" scum plan theory (or "hypothesis," whichever you prefer) here.

2) that Eponine hired an NPC group (which is, though creative, ridiculous thematically as Eponine is destitute). The more he talks, the less comfortable I am that he's to be trusted.

Again, you are mis-interpreting my words. I brought up the idea that it is stupid to rely on the flavor text as our determiner of who is guilty. I do not believe that the scum needs to be a leader, or to be a male. Again, I was positing a hypothetical in which it could be true that Eponine would be scum, while not actually pulling the trigger in the flavor text

because I don't think it is at all important

. The flavor text also had me pull

Victor Hugo's

gun out of his pocket and finish off EmpTyger. Victor Hugo is obviously not a character in his own book, nor is he able to affect the outcome, so why does he have a gun? (etc. etc. -- My point is that all such considerations are inane). Also, if, as you say, MeMe, your power is to double your vote anonymously, then my act of pulling the trigger in the flavor text would not matter at all, so, again, my contention stands -- the flavor text is irrelevant.

If you keep putting words on the page, you must assume that they will be analyzed. If they're not to be taken literally, please don't expect me to know that and say that I've "misinterpreted" you later. I think that all flavor text (especially night scenes) should be looked at for clues. I put an emphasis on night scenes because they tell us the things that happened of which we

aren't

all aware. We can decide to ignore it, but to do so pre-emptively just seems wasteful to me. You introducing the "maybe Eponine hired the people I think we should be ignoring," possibility was something I thought you were seriously suggesting.

Oh, and MeMe, it doesn't make any sense to suspect that Javert is in cahoots with Thenardier. That's just as ridiculous as Valjean-Thenardier.

Well, the difference is that I've said repeatedly that I don't believe Javert is scum, nor have I put forth a theory where they would be connected. You, on the other hand, seem to think that a "ridiculous" pairing such as Valjean-Thenardier is possible enough to mention it as an "awesome" idea. Get it straight -- it isn't your claimed role that concerns me, it's your posts.

Mr. Stoofer, it really seems the burden is on you to figure out who your Mme. Thenardier is.

I do not discount the possibility of there being one, MeMe, despite the lack of M. Thenardier.

Why would the burden be on Stoofer to "figure out" who Mme. Thenardier is? And I agree it's possible that Mme. Thenardier's in the game...but I still doubt it. I'll play along, though -- if there were a Mme. Thenardier in the game, she'd have to be either gootentag or yourself. Right?

Your reaction to my suspicions on you seems pretty over-the-top to me, especially because I think it was pretty clear that Changling bob was still my favorite suspect. I'm also pretty interested in the fact that at the end of the day one, you chided me for not noticing that you generally post later in the evening...but now you seem to have gained access without problem in the middle of the day. If I were a suspicious type (and, make no mistake, I

am

), I'd have to wonder if you were simply avoiding the thread yesterday...and I'd have to ask myself (again, make no mistake, I'm askin') whether the reason EmpTyger said that he agreed with me about Javert not being mafia was because he knew Javert

was

mafia.

Can't wait to hear how my current post is completely unfounded. Oooh! And I still have Changling bob's retort to anticipate! Happy,

happy

day.

[MeMe]

I'm not going to talk over your entire post this time, but I will respond to this...

I do generally post in the evening, MeMe, but I think it rather crass of you to accuse me based on access needs. Not everyone has a computer at their disposal 24/7. I have a computer at home, and I'm happy to logon to the site every night to check. During the day, however, I work as a teacher, so I'm not usually able to do so. This past week, school was out for Spring Break (that is also how I was able to fly out to Chicago midweek).

--Yesterday you made a point of saying that you tend to post late at night and that it [should have been] somewhat clear.
--Today you call me "crass" for remembering what you said on Day 1.

Now, I don't know anything other than what I'm told in the thread. Since you say you're a teacher, I'm going to assume that you have the ability to reason...

1) if someone makes a point of saying that their normal access time is late at night and
2) posts start occurring with regularity outside of that time frame without explanation...

...that the logical conclusions are...

a) point one was never true or
b) point one is no longer true.

Since you didn't say one way or another, it's simple thoroughness for me to bring it up. Basically, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that your schedule is usually one way and then get indignant when I point out that you're no longer keeping to it. A simple explanation would have sufficed, so I'm pretty confused about your defensive tone and I find it rather ironic that you're telling

me

to keep it friendly. There is no basis for the allegation of crassness when I've questioned/disagreed with/challenged the

content

of your posts -- and will continue to do so as I see fit.

[MeMe]

As we've only seen one kill nightly, if there are "twin SKs," they must be operating on opposite nights. And, with all the power claimed by the town, they'd have to be hella-strong to be expected to have a chance at winning singlehandedly. I still think a mafia team of two makes the most sense.

I don't think it's problematic for a scum team to be made of two characters who aren't a classic match.

Thenardier and Javert could be a scum team:
--because they both wanted to take Valjean down
--if the revolution is considered a

good

thing, neither were active in it (Javert working against it...Thenardier only working to profit by picking over the dead)

Thenardier and Enjolras could be a scum team:
--because they were both on the wrong side of the law (and I realize that Valjean fits here too)

[MeMe]

The Bishop of Digne, Cosette, and Javert don't.

[MeMe]

Ooooh....interesting possibility, gootentag.

[MeMe]

Regarding the possibility of LK being Mme. Thenardier -- I think it's simply interesting. I'm on record as doubting the existence of the role, but LK made it clear that he thinks it might exist (by attacking my thoughts about the absence of "Monsieur" for EmpTyger's role) and then later made it sound as though Stoofer's the only one who does -- at least role-wise.

LK stayed out of the discussion about Javert's alignment (which I think the real Javert may have done), but then there's post #139 in which he suggests that the masons are the only power roles...when, if he's a cop/vigilante (as he claims), he'd know better. Could've been a trap to see who'd go "yeah - that's probably it!" -- but he didn't follow up on it...and even if someone had leaped on the theory, it'd certainly not be indicative of that person being scum.

As for taking a "risk" by claiming Javert if he actually isn't...I don't believe this is true. When he claimed, Cb and I were already out...gootentag said he thought Javert would be SK or godfather (in post 25) - so he's obviously not going to claim Javert...and Stoofer said in post 191 that Javert would be an "obviously scummy role - so

he's

obviously not going to claim Javert.

Still - after all that - I'm afraid...very afraid...that Changling bob's the remaining scum and that Lord Krishna has just been tossing red herrings left and right.

[MeMe]

The last set of points you posted I answered, so can you explain so I can defend myself please.

Same stuff, Cb. Yes, you "answered" -- but that doesn't mean I've bought your answers.

Might as well get this over with first.

<snip>
--The role name
--The claimed mechanics (if he's town...what if he recruits scum into his group? Just doesn't seem to work except in a cult/scum capacity)
--Backing up EmpTyger yesterday
--And the thing that's catching my eye most prominently at the moment (huge examples in posts 308 & 312): he's admitting that he understands the allegations against him. When I'm town and being unfairly accused, I tend to think my accusers are imbeciles and go to great lengths to explain how what I said is in

no way

scummy...even if I've made errors. Conceding points against oneself looks guilty to me.
<snip>

To go through your points in order:
--In what way would Enjolras be connected to Thenardier in a scum based capacity?
--I don't know what happens if I recruit scum. I'd rather not try it out if it's all the same to you
--I made a mistake. I laughed at a joke. Then you claimed and I didn't get time between your claim and the lynch to voice my suspicions.
--Well if you're willing to accept that you are, in fact, an imbecile, then I'll happily treat you like one. As is, I'll deal with your arguements as I see them.

I agree that there's no way for you to tell that I haven't used my recruitment ability, but then there's no way for any of us to confirm who anybody else used their ability on, or even what they are.

--As I've said, I don't think that the scum group has to be a

natural

fit.
--I'd rather you not try to recruit at all...and I'm stuck on the possibility that you're scum and recruiting gives you

another

scum at this point. But, regardless, you didn't answer the question about what

might

happen if you recruit scum -- you just dodged it with an "I'm not gonna"
--So you say. But, from my perspective, it was you who gave legs to the "joke" by taking up the cause so vehemently. The only part of ET's post series that I interpreted as a true joke was the one in which he actually

said

"April Fool's" (the one I said "heh" to) -- I thought he was trying to lighten the mood after his horrible blunder. It looked to me as though you breathed life into his defense when you attacked me -- then ET saw a glimmer of hope and ran with it.
--And that one's not an answer...it's a comeback.

But I've obviously not made up my mind, so please keep talking.

[MeMe]

eeny meeny miney....

vote: Changling bob

[MeMe]

unvote: Cb

Forgot LK changed his vote to Cb...but that's the way I'm currently leaning.

[MeMe]

I totally understand the suspicion about LK and I'm not

sure

it's Cb. I'm torn as to who's more likely to be guilty...but my current leaning is based on taking a good look at the numbers.

Let's assume we started with 2 active scum (which I think is a sound assumption).

That means that we've either got one scum left OR, if Cb's scum, he may have recruited another last night (possible mechanic could be that he can recruit only if his partner's dead...but I think being allowed to recruit and kill in the same night would be way unfair, so I'm doubting this is the case).

If we have...
--One scum with no recruitment possibility: we can both lynch wrong

and

suffer a death tonight and we still have two alive to find the one scum tomorrow.
--Two scum (successful recruitment last night -- depends on Cb being scum): we're in lynch or lose.
--One scum with the possibility of another being gained tonight (again, only Cb): then the soundest play is either kill the recruiter, which would put us back to the top option of "one scum"...even if Cb's innocent, we should still be alright if we lynch him . We could alternatively go with a no-lynch -- but that would make it lynch or lose tomorrow and we'd still have to figure out the recruited party...and we'd also have to hope that recruiting/killing can't both happen on the same night or we'll lose outright.

Basically, if the scum is anyone

other

than Changling bob, we've got two days to find him. A good lynch yesterday means that a mistake won't fatal today. If it's Changling bob, however, we've got the recruitment mechanic to consider and lynching anyone else could be the end of us as we could be:
-- 2 scum to 3 town right now (again, I think this unlikely but it must be considered)...wrong lynch loses it
or
--1 scum to 4 town right now...wrong lynch makes it 1 scum to 3 town...overnight recruitment makes it 2 scum to 2 town...we lose it.

Do you understand what I'm saying? If we're trying to decide between two lynchees and one of them can recruit...then I think the choice is a no-brainer.

vote: Changling bob

[MeMe]

Please don't vote without

much

conversation first.

Anyone got stuff they need to say?

[MeMe]

gootentag: what are your current thoughts on LK? Do you believe him to be Javert and guilty or do you believe he's lied about his role name?

LK: what are your current thoughts on gootentag? Do you believe he's truly the Bishop?

[MeMe]

Interesting. I look forward to hearing LK's thoughts.

[MeMe]

Oh, I've got thoughts...but I'd prefer not to have mine influence either of yours at the moment.

[MeMe]

First -- of

course

your posts would influence my thoughts. One of you is scum and I'm still trying to figure out which...I'm looking at everything you all say to help me make a decision. I preferred not to speak first as I suspect both of you...and detailing my suspicions only gives whichever of you is scum a kind of primer on what to say to make me believe you're thinking the same things as I am about the

other

one.
~~~~~~~~~~~

gootentag

When I don't look at anything other than the roles/mechanics claimed, I'm sure that the "Bishop" is the remaining scum. Mr Stoofer's claim makes it clear that Javert should be in the game (though alignment is up in the air) and I think it's kinda hinky for gootentag to state that he believes LK to not be Javert when the existence of a "government agent" is necessary for Stoofer's claim to be correct (and as Stoofer's dead & town, we know his claim is trustworthy).

I agree with LK that it would have been quite a feat for gootentag not to vote until now -- but originally the explanation was pretty vague ("role based reasons") and they weren't firmed up until he was directly questioned. This makes me wonder if it was only at that point that he decided to go with the non-voting angle. The explanation of how the role works in endgame is pretty weird too...basically, he's saying that there's no way for town to win this game unless 1) a deadline is in place and 2) LK and I vote each other first.

LordKrishna

But, when I look at all of LK's

posts

yesterday, I think that

he's

got to be the scum. I also can't ignore the fact that Stoofer and Changling bob wanted LK to swing and they've both been proven town. If I vote gootentag, it'd be against the suspicions of confirmed pro-town players and the loss would be fully on my shoulders. There's also the little matter of Stoofer being termed doctor in his post...his role apparently didn't explicitly say "doctor":

Every night I choose someone to hang around. As the estranged daughter of the Thernadiers, I will try frustrate them if they try to harm that person. That is how I knew that Thernadier(s) were scum.

Furthermore, because of my time acting as a lookout for my parents, I will out of habit distract any government agents that try to do anything to the person I am hanging around. I originally interpreted this to mean that that person would be immune from investigation. Of course, if Javert is scum then I would be a straightforward doc.

According to Stoofer, his role sounded like doc/blocker on first read...but that's not what

Aelyn

called Eponine.

Mr Stoofer (Eponine, doctor) has been stabbed to death.

Although I think a Thenardier/Javert pairing is weird -- it's not impossible. As I believe I stated before, they were both out to get Valjean, so they have a natural affinity there. I also find this an interesting possibility...

I know others disagree, but I could easily accept a set up with 2 independent SKs, namley Thernadier and Javert. That would make me a standard doc and would make perfect sense. It would explan why there is only one Thernadier in the game. And it would explain LK's rather odd statements of late.

...but I believe a standard two-person group to be more likely.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
So. Those are my current thoughts. You're both suspicious in your own way -- but if I were going to vote this minute, it'd be for LK.

[MeMe]

I guess I'll be voting for LordKrishna -- but I'll give him a while to say what he wants to say.

[MeMe]

vote: LordKrishna

[MeMe]

Damn.

[MeMe]

I'm really so mad I could spit -- but what could I do? Please, innocent dead, answer truthfully...would you have done differently in my shoes? Did anyone believe gootentag to be the scum?

LK -- could you have looked

any scummier

?? Gah. This loss is a hard one. In my 80+ games, I don't think I've ever felt so invested in a game.

I knew Javert must be innocent. Why oh why didn't I stick to that?

[MeMe]

gootentag -- extremely well played. Yesterday it was either LK or Cb on the block, never you.

So very frustrating.

[MeMe]

Oh - and LK -- you were right about me not killing EmpTyger on day one.

I bluffed that to 1) hopefully scare the other scum (or anyone really) into placing the necessary lynching vote onto EmpTyger and 2) make myself look like a townie without spending my extra vote. My mechanic was an extra vote once during the game -- not a daykill as assumed by LmL.

Your last post just convinced me that you were the way to go. Sorry -- but, hey. You looked damn scummy.

[MeMe]

I can edit because I'm a Little Italy moderator. I can edit any post in any game in this forum (though I'd never do it while a game is in process unless I were the moderator of said game).

[MeMe]

It sucks to lose this one, but at least I have the comfort that the winner earned it through really good play!

No, I'm

not

downplaying my idiocy. Really.

[MeMe]

it got to a situation in day 3 where MeMe could only win if there was a no lynch, and Goot and LK could only win by lynching one another.

How so? Wouldn't lynching gootentag have resulted in a town win? And, if not, was there ever any

real

possibility of a town without being perfect in lynches? As LK said on day two, he expected to turn up a guilty result on Valjean -- so what makes you think he'd arrest me automatically? I guess I'm not quite clear on the SK aspect of the Javert role...I'm frankly

more

confused by the game now that I've read the roles.

And why list Stoofer as

only

doctor in his death scene? This, for me, was the biggest deciding factor in me voting for LK (a close second was the misleading male-shooter death scene).

And EmpTyger -- you can insist about the joke all you want, but I

truly

thought it wasn't and can't imagine I'd have budged off of you even if you hadn't claimed my role. I've already detailed what looked off about it (too much detail and bundled with actual game comments, if I recall).

[MeMe]

Oh - and the "game savior" comment (had to look up the context) was in reference to your self-proclaimed "harsh" chiding the rest of us for letting the game lag while we were waiting on you. You seemed, to me, to want to characterize yourself as the motor of the game and us as slackers who needed you to kick us in the butt.

[MeMe]

But...you said that LK's arrest was not automatic. And LK said...

I did think that an investigation of MeMe would probably turn up a false guilty result, so I didn't do that, instead trying to get more information...

So, it's quite possible that, if LK and I had lynched gootentag today and he was exposed as scum, we'd have had a joint win, no?

And if the only chance of innocent town winning the game was a "no-lynch" -- I pretty much think that's the same thing as saying that the town had

no

chance of winning the game on day three. It'd have been completely nonsensical to go for no-lynch when it looked clear that there was only one killer and no doctor. And it seems totally unsolvable to me that, just because you chose that I should turn up as guilty (though I'm town, according to my role) that I can't win if Javert (another innocent, according to HIS role I'm assuming) is also alive. I mean, reverse/insane/paranoid cops don't have to believe the investigations they're given -- if they do, that's kind of playing the game

for

the players rather than letting them interpret the game for themselves.

I'm just irritated, as you can probably tell. All game I was trying hard to win this. It was bad enough when it looked as though I had simply made a bad decision...it's even worse when it appears as though there was never a RIGHT one for me. Feels like a waste of time -- like I've been Punk'd.

[MeMe]

I just take mafia games way too seriously. Ignore me.

[MeMe]

last post