Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[vikingfan]

So if Valjean and Javert were left after lynching Mde. Thenardier, Valjean would have lost? Hmmm....

Good game all, though I was suspicious of gootentag first- I simply wasn't buying the claim, though goot set it up nicely from the start.

[MeMe]

it got to a situation in day 3 where MeMe could only win if there was a no lynch, and Goot and LK could only win by lynching one another.

How so? Wouldn't lynching gootentag have resulted in a town win? And, if not, was there ever any

real

possibility of a town without being perfect in lynches? As LK said on day two, he expected to turn up a guilty result on Valjean -- so what makes you think he'd arrest me automatically? I guess I'm not quite clear on the SK aspect of the Javert role...I'm frankly

more

confused by the game now that I've read the roles.

And why list Stoofer as

only

doctor in his death scene? This, for me, was the biggest deciding factor in me voting for LK (a close second was the misleading male-shooter death scene).

And EmpTyger -- you can insist about the joke all you want, but I

truly

thought it wasn't and can't imagine I'd have budged off of you even if you hadn't claimed my role. I've already detailed what looked off about it (too much detail and bundled with actual game comments, if I recall).

[MeMe]

Oh - and the "game savior" comment (had to look up the context) was in reference to your self-proclaimed "harsh" chiding the rest of us for letting the game lag while we were waiting on you. You seemed, to me, to want to characterize yourself as the motor of the game and us as slackers who needed you to kick us in the butt.

[Aelyn]

it got to a situation in day 3 where MeMe could only win if there was a no lynch, and Goot and LK could only win by lynching one another.

How so? Wouldn't lynching gootentag have resulted in a town win? And, if not, was there ever any

real

possibility of a town without being perfect in lynches? As LK said on day two, he expected to turn up a guilty result on Valjean -- so what makes you think he'd arrest me automatically? I guess I'm not quite clear on the SK aspect of the Javert role...I'm frankly

more

confused by the game now that I've read the roles.

And why list Stoofer as

only

doctor in his death scene? This, for me, was the biggest deciding factor in me voting for LK (a close second was the misleading male-shooter death scene).

And EmpTyger -- you can insist about the joke all you want, but I

truly

thought it wasn't and can't imagine I'd have budged off of you even if you hadn't claimed my role. I've already detailed what looked off about it (too much detail and bundled with actual game comments, if I recall).

Basically, Javert was essentially a neutral role - it was quite possible for some townies to win and others to not.

Javert would have won if, at any point, the only people left alive were him and people he felt to be innocent. Those people would also have won, but not the rest of the town. Had Goot been lynched day 3, Javert would have arrested you overnight, which would have meant you wouldn't have won.

In other words, it was quite possible from the start for Javert, Cosette and Marius to win, and no-one else to (had CB used his ability)!

Regarding the Eponine thing - Eponine did actually block investigations, but I only gave the

essence

of the role. Yes, it was gamebreaking in the end, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

[MeMe]

But...you said that LK's arrest was not automatic. And LK said...

I did think that an investigation of MeMe would probably turn up a false guilty result, so I didn't do that, instead trying to get more information...

So, it's quite possible that, if LK and I had lynched gootentag today and he was exposed as scum, we'd have had a joint win, no?

And if the only chance of innocent town winning the game was a "no-lynch" -- I pretty much think that's the same thing as saying that the town had

no

chance of winning the game on day three. It'd have been completely nonsensical to go for no-lynch when it looked clear that there was only one killer and no doctor. And it seems totally unsolvable to me that, just because you chose that I should turn up as guilty (though I'm town, according to my role) that I can't win if Javert (another innocent, according to HIS role I'm assuming) is also alive. I mean, reverse/insane/paranoid cops don't have to believe the investigations they're given -- if they do, that's kind of playing the game

for

the players rather than letting them interpret the game for themselves.

I'm just irritated, as you can probably tell. All game I was trying hard to win this. It was bad enough when it looked as though I had simply made a bad decision...it's even worse when it appears as though there was never a RIGHT one for me. Feels like a waste of time -- like I've been Punk'd.

[Aelyn]

But...you said that LK's arrest was not automatic. And LK said...

I did think that an investigation of MeMe would probably turn up a false guilty result, so I didn't do that, instead trying to get more information...

So, it's quite possible that, if LK and I had lynched gootentag today and he was exposed as scum, we'd have had a joint win, no?

And if the only chance of innocent town winning the game was a "no-lynch" -- I pretty much think that's the same thing as saying that the town had

no

chance of winning the game on day three. It'd have been completely nonsensical to go for no-lynch when it looked clear that there was only one killer and no doctor. And it seems totally unsolvable to me that, just because you chose that I should turn up as guilty (though I'm town, according to my role) that I can't win if Javert (another innocent, according to HIS role I'm assuming) is also alive. I mean, reverse/insane/paranoid cops don't have to believe the investigations they're given -- if they do, that's kind of playing the game

for

the players rather than letting them interpret the game for themselves.

I'm just irritated, as you can probably tell. All game I was trying hard to win this. It was bad enough when it looked as though I had simply made a bad decision...it's even worse when it appears as though there was never a RIGHT one for me. Feels like a waste of time -- like I've been Punk'd.

I think I see the misunderstanding here.

Javert was

not

a pro-town player here - he was neutral, almost an SK with an advantage. On the last day, the game setup was essentially a townie, an SK and a Mafia - and that situation is unwinnable by the townie unless there's a no-lynch. The way that the lynches and nightkills fell, there was no way for you to win day 3, but unfortunately that happens sometimes.

The reason I made the arrest mechanic optional was twofold - firstly, it means that he can hide the fact that there's an SK-like player in the game. Secondly (and perhaps more evilly), it makes his exact role rather vague - for the majority of the game, LK believed he was strictly pro-town, instead of the essentially neutral role he had.

The reason Javert had this somewhat unusual role was purely flavour-driven. In the book, Javert is a firm officer of the law, and spent the vast majority of his time chasing Valjean. He also infiltrated the revolutionaries, with the intention of destroying them from the inside. Judging by these points, it felt bizarre to think that it would be possible for him to win with some of his enemies alive, so I felt I had to give him the unusual victory conditions. However, Javert firmly believed he was doing the right thing, hence the vague role description.

I apologise if you feel cheated by the setup.

[MeMe]

I just take mafia games way too seriously. Ignore me.

[Mr Stoofer]

Kudos to you gootentag. A well deserved win - albeit I think you were a bit lucky with Javert's result on you.

Thanks also to you Aelyn for a great theme adaptation that had us all guessing until the very end. It must have involved a huge amount of work for you. What was the "unusual rule" that you didn't use in the end?

[LoudmouthLee]

Hi everyone-

Incredible props to Goot. This may very well be the BEST scum play I have seen in a long time. Granted, the voting restriction was pure genius... but I don't like the way it played in the last day.

Truth of the matter was, MeMe, you were going to die regardless, for even if you lynched Goot, You would have been found guilty by Javert and being arrested.

This was the classic Townie / Mafia / SK standoff..

As for everyone, it was an amazing game. I had fun playing with you all.. Damn you all for driving me to suiicide.

[Aelyn]

Kudos to you gootentag. A well deserved win - albeit I think you were a bit lucky with Javert's result on you.

Thanks also to you Aelyn for a great theme adaptation that had us all guessing until the very end. It must have involved a huge amount of work for you. What was the "unusual rule" that you didn't use in the end?

Thanks!

Actually, it wasn't that much work... apart from trying to write nightscenes around existing lyrics. I'm rather proud of how it ended up.

The unusual rule was... no breaking the fourth wall. It's kind of a difficult rule to implement, but basically it would have meant you weren't allowed to talk about the game as though it was a game - no discussion of exact role mechanics, or the probability of certain roles being in the game, or the like. It's a rather subjective rule, and I'm gonna keep it in mind for a while until I can figure out a nice way of implementing it.

[MeMe]

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