Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[EmpTyger]

Sorry again, all, for the delay.
I don’t think there’s anything I can add to my defense that hasn’t already been said. (It’s still MeMe’s word vs. mine; and somehow an obvious joke I’ve made is being taken as the ultimate sign of evil.) There’s no point in attacking MeMe- it’s obvious it’s her or me, and half have already made up their minds.

Yet I see no reason to stay silent- besides if I survive this imminent lynch I will certainly be nightkilled, so this is my last chance to talk. And there must be another antitown out there, so I may as well try to take both down with me. So here are some final thoughts to help the town.

As I said, obviously, one of {MeMe, Tyger} must be mafia (or SK if 2 SK setup). So in any case,

this clears bob and vikingfan

. Since both bob and vikingfan would have to be mafia together, and at least one other must be mafia, and it’s been shown that that cannot work mathematically. (We need either 2 SKs or a 2 person mafia to survive past a day 1 mislynch.)

Now, even without my role, the town was still considered overpowered. With bob and vikingfan innocent, that focuses even more attention on LML. I’d list more suspicions, but we know how much he likes ignoring what I have to say.
[Aside to bob: the problem I had with LML was halo, and the problem I had with voting LML was halo. Good luck sorting it out.]

If it somehow becomes clear that LML is innocent, I propose whoever Eponine is (provided it’s not MeMe). Given what had gone on during the vikingfan claim, either both Eponine and Cosette should have come forward, or neither. Moreover, I’ve mentioned already how MeMe’s handled Eponine oddly. For example, looking back over the thread, I noticed this:

Perhaps if Eponine finds Cosette, Ep dies (as she did in book).

This is *not* what happened in the book. The only connection is temporal, and as to that, you might as well say that if Eponine finds Cosette, Javert or Gavroche or Valjean dies. So the only conclusion I can draw is that she was trying to discourage the masons from using their abilities. In that post she also first proposes the idea that their abilities are antitown. Please, after my death, reread the thread and reevaluate immediately- don’t wait until tomorrow; do it before your night choices.

No reason for delay.

Finally, for what it’s worth, let me again point out how anxious MeMe has been to rush my lynch. If she were town, wouldn’t she want to have these voting patterns to analyze? Moreover, a rush might bring night upon before a chance for the reevaluation of night abilities. Like the talk about “searching for Cosette”, that MeMe keeps superseding by forcing attention onto me.

If this is it, thanks all and mod. Would love to discuss the novel in postmortem.

[MeMe]

somehow an obvious joke I’ve made is being taken as the ultimate sign of evil

No - your "joke" was taken as a

probable

sign of evil. Claiming my role is a

sure

(though still not "ultimate") sign of evil.

So in any case,

this clears bob and vikingfan

. Since both bob and vikingfan would have to be mafia together,

I must have missed the part where we all decided that bob and vikingfan would "have to be mafia together." Mind pointing me to it?

Perhaps if Eponine finds Cosette, Ep dies (as she did in book).

This is *not* what happened in the book.

Well, yeah it did. Ep delivered a message to Cosette from Marius and then went on to die. I did not say that Eponine died as a result of finding Cosette. But she does die

after

finding her.

The only connection is temporal, and as to that, you might as well say that if Eponine finds Cosette, Javert or Gavroche or Valjean dies.

Yes - they die after that event as well. But as it was claimed that Marius sends Eponine to find Cosette, I thought the most likely scenario of danger would be to one of those three -- and since Eponine is the only one of the three who winds up dead, it seems plausible (much more so than Javert or Gavroche dying, anyway).

So the only conclusion I can draw is that she was trying to discourage the masons from using their abilities.

Yep - I was pretty clear about that. If the town has as much power as their claimed abilities imply, using them is dangerous. However, I still think it's possible that one or the other could be scum. Again, please remind me if this possibility has somewhere been disproven.

Please, after my death, reread the thread and reevaluate immediately- don’t wait until tomorrow; do it before your night choices.

Please, after his death, pause to admire the beauty of his attempts to stay alive.

No reason for delay.

Finally, for what it’s worth, let me again point out how anxious MeMe has been to rush my lynch. If she were town, wouldn’t she want to have these voting patterns to analyze?

Nope. As I'm on record as saying, I think you're a good player. Since I know you're scum, I want there to be absolutely no chance of you talking yourself out of being lynched. As a player with a pretty good record of talking herself out of "certain" death, I know just how dangerous allowing scum to flap their gums can be.

[Aelyn]

Satisfied by the recent swell in conversation, Monsieur Hugo sits back down, tucking his pistol away.

Deadline rescinded.

I apologise for not coming online until now to explain this - my net access died last night, and has only come up in the last hour or so. Sorry all.

[gootentag]

MeMe: as stated before, I am not voting because of role based reasons. As for your claim, I am slightly suspicious, seeing as you were the one driving the bandwagon prior to EmpTyger's claim (the Valjean one, not the Thenardier April Fools[?] claim.) I fail to see why you did not come out with a claim sooner after EmpTyger's. It seems to me that you are a good enough player to know that if EmpTyger were lying, a legitimate counterclaim would have been the final nail in his coffin. Valjean, one way or the other, is most definately a catch for the scum if they can get him out of the way, which might have motivated a false claim out of you - getting him lynched today in exchange for your surefire lynch tomorrow. It also appears that you were trying to hold out and see if you could force the lynch before you claimed, thus possibly avoiding a trade and just getting a strict advantage instead. If you are lying and we lynch EmpTyger, then the scum have the precious day one lynch they almost need to survive in such a small game.

In short, it is obvious that you claimed in order to get EmpTyger lynched. The only question is wether you did it because you are indeed Valjean or because you believe he is Valjean.

At this point, I find you more suspect. But it is indeed a far cry from the "square one" I mentioned earlier.

[MeMe]

So gootentag, you missed your chance to put the lynching vote on EmpTyger and be thought of as more likely innocent than guilty. Bad decision.

I've just sent the game into twilight. Once Aelyn comes back, he should be posting a death scene for Thenardier -- um --

EmpTyger

.

[LoudmouthLee]

(eyebrow)

Used a daykill, MeMe? I think the others would have ultimately seen the errors in their logic.

[MeMe]

And please be clear, gootentag. Are you claiming that your role says that you cannot vote? Because that sounds absolutely ridiculous for a pro-town role.

It would mean that, if there are 6 town left and you're one of them, we'd need every single pro-town player who is able to vote to vote unanimously to get scum lynched today...or, if there's one dissenter, exercising my mayoral privilege becomes a NECESSITY.

Which means that if I'd either gotten killed last night or I didn't agree with the majority, it'd have been almost impossible to get scum lynched today.

[MeMe]

I think the others would have ultimately seen the errors in their logic.

You have more faith than I, Loudmouth.

I was banking on the deadline when I claimed and am pretty irritated that it was taken away. There were three people who could have added their vote to the four on EmpTyger...

1) Changling bob -- I can't see him being able to admit that he's the one who'd read EmpTyger's "joke" so completely wrong. I think he would have chosen to vote me first, regardless of his alignment
2) gootentag -- just said he believes EmpTyger more than he believes me
3) LordKrishna -- said "explain or die." EmpTyger's explained. Really well.

Although I know that if I'd been lynched first, Emp would have to do some fast talking to survive tomorrow -- in such a small game I'd rather get a sure scum down

first

. I was just imagining his "MeMe must have been my doppelganger! The one who everyone thought was me!" story tomorrow if I'd been lynched and revealed as Jean Valjean. And, with the way the logic has gone since my claim, he might have pulled it off if he'd tried it.

[gootentag]

I appologize for being unclear - I cannot vote. While I understand your frustration (believe me...) I can only assume it serves to balance out some of the stronger power roles mentioned by other players. As for it making a majority harder to reach if I am one of 6 remaining townsfolk, it would make it nearly impossible to win as scum. It throws the entire endgame off from a numbers standpoint and makes it impossible to lead a charge against anyone else. I admit, it's not a role I'm particularly fond of, but I see how it fits in character and could be a balancing tool from a mod's perspective.

[EmpTyger]

Strawmen, circular logic, and contradictions, yet I'm facing the lynching...?!

I have no idea whether MeMe's vote-editing ability is honest but actually a mafia ability, or whether she's hoping to get people to pile on in a false twilight thinking voting no longer matters, but I'll assume I have a chance. Could someone unvote, on the offchance that she's giving an instruction to a mafia compatriot who has yet to login?

somehow an obvious joke I’ve made is being taken as the ultimate sign of evil

No - your "joke" was taken as a

probable

sign of evil. Claiming my role is a

sure

(though still not "ultimate") sign of evil.

Blatantly false. You were "sure" long before I claimed. [201]. Right after the joke, when the deadline was announced:

The lynchee is incredibly obvious -- now get in here and vote EmpTyger."

So in any case,

this clears bob and vikingfan

. Since both bob and vikingfan would have to be mafia together,

I must have missed the part where we all decided that bob and vikingfan would "have to be mafia together." Mind pointing me to it?

Um, when they supported each other claiming *mason*. I’m sure you can find it mentioned a couple times in the thread. Why would bob support the claim if vikingfan were a mafia falsely claiming mason? Or are you proposing a protown-antitown mason group?

Perhaps if Eponine finds Cosette, Ep dies (as she did in book).

This is *not* what happened in the book.

Well, yeah it did. Ep delivered a message to Cosette from Marius and then went on to die. I did not say that Eponine died as a result of finding Cosette. But she does die

after

finding her.

The only connection is temporal, and as to that, you might as well say that if Eponine finds Cosette, Javert or Gavroche or Valjean dies.

Yes - they die after that event as well. But as it was claimed that Marius sends Eponine to find Cosette, I thought the most likely scenario of danger would be to one of those three -- and since Eponine is the only one of the three who winds up dead, it seems plausible (much more so than Javert or Gavroche dying, anyway).

So the only conclusion I can draw is that she was trying to discourage the masons from using their abilities.

Yep - I was pretty clear about that. If the town has as much power as their claimed abilities imply, using them is dangerous. However, I still think it's possible that one or the other could be scum. Again, please remind me if this possibility has somewhere been disproven.

I can't believe 3 others think that *I*'m doing more to spread confusion than you.

The masons' abilities are too powerful for the town, therefore they shouldn't use their abilities. Masons may be mafia. Abilities of protown players may actually be antitown. There's an alternate explanation that can't be proven for every single thing.
Every single thing, except, of course, for a joke a told on April Fool's Day, which obviously must have to be sinister.

This makes sense how?

Please, after my death, reread the thread and reevaluate immediately- don’t wait until tomorrow; do it before your night choices.

Please, after his death, pause to admire the beauty of his attempts to stay alive.

No reason for delay.

Finally, for what it’s worth, let me again point out how anxious MeMe has been to rush my lynch. If she were town, wouldn’t she want to have these voting patterns to analyze?

Nope. As I'm on record as saying, I think you're a good player. Since I know you're scum, I want there to be absolutely no chance of you talking yourself out of being lynched. As a player with a pretty good record of talking herself out of "certain" death, I know just how dangerous allowing scum to flap their gums can be.

I note the dramatic irony of your last sentence. You're a good player, too.

However, considering how anxious you are to see who's voting and not voting for me given the chance, maybe you're contradicting yourself again?


Regarding gootentag's partial claim:
If he's telling the truth, the math pretty much dictates that the antitown be 2 SKs, since otherwise a majority is ridiculous to obtain. (Which might explain how someone like Cosette could happen to be antitown with someone like Thenardier.)
If gootentag is lying, well, then he's the second antitown and the setup is irrelevant.

[MeMe]

It's a role that I don't think makes sense for either side.

But, if you're scum, simply claiming to have a restriction doesn't mean that you actually do. In my experience, mafia have this crazy tendency to lie about what their roles require.

[MeMe]

Above is a response to gootentag.

This is my response to EmpTyger: give it up. You're dead.

[LordKrishna]

In case it hasn't been somewhat clear -- I tend to post late at night, b/c that's when I'm home and have Internet access. MeMe, please don't ask "Why haven't you voted" when the reason is obviously that EmpTyger hadn't yet posted his defense... which he now has.


All right. EmpTyger's defense of himself has come up EmpTy.

<rimshot>

I do like genuinely like your play-style, EmpTyger, but I, too, ultimately find MeMe's explanation more convincing than yours. I don't think the Thenardier claim was a 'tell' -- I think that you honestly did attempt to make what I thought was a pretty funny joke. But ultimately, the counter-claim breaks it for me...

I had essentially voted already, MeMe, with my heart (my earlier FOS, with the words "Defend yourself or die), but now, after the words "I don’t think there’s anything I can add to my defense that hasn’t already been said," I'll put my money where my mouth is, so to speak).

VOTE: EmpTyger

.

I dp think that EmpTyger's 'defense' post [250] raises some interesting points for those who have night decisions to be made, should he turn out to be Town (and ALSO, should he turn out to be scum). I agree with MeMe's assessment -- he is a rather clever player. Let's see who was more clever...

-K

P.S. Apologies for lame joke above.

P.P.S. EmpTyger and I are cross-posting, but nothing he just said has solved the problem. If he's innocent, then MeMe is obviously scum. End of story. Let's end the Day now, and gain some info.

[LordKrishna]

MeMe, I don't understand this "give it up. You're dead." comment. Prior to my vote, he still had a chance (of someone bailing on their vote, whatever).

gootentag's role restriction does make sense if we have as many superpowers on Town's side as people have been claiming.

-K

[MeMe]

The day was already over -- bailing on a vote wouldn't have mattered.

And alright, Loudmouth, I admit it: you were right -- I'm just too jaded, I guess.

[Mr Stoofer]

*Keeps fingers crossed*

[Aelyn]

Monsieur Hugo keeps careful count of the votes flying back and forth as MeMe and Emptyger stare each other in the eye. After a few minutes, MeMe sits back, triumphant. “Don’t worry, everyone”, she calls out, “He’s had the sword of Damocles over him for a while, and I just cut it.”

Confused, Emptyger looked above his head and stared into the sky, apparently not understanding the metaphor.

“I’ve had enough!” growled LordKrishna. He strode forward, taking advantage of Emptyger’s distracted state, grabbed Monsieur Hugo’s pistol and shot Emptyger dead. You walk towards him as a group – this is the first time some of you have seen death, and everyone is silent. MeMe steps forward, and tears open the corpse’s shirt. You all gasp as you see the number tattooed onto the man’s chest.

23,819. One of you recognizes the number.

“That’s the old innkeeper, Thenardier.”

Votecount as night falls:

LoudmouthLee - 1 (Changling Bob)
Emptyger - 5 (LoudmouthLee, MeMe, vikingfan, Mr Stoofer, LordKrishna)
MeMe - 1 (Emptyger)

Emptyger (Thenardier, mafia) has been lynched.

Please get night choices into me as soon as possible. I won't impose a deadline unless it's taking ages.

[Aelyn]

”A heart full of love! A heart full of song!”
The sound of a man in love reaches every ear in Paris. Vikingfan, the poor, lonely language student and friend of the ABC, walks slowly forwards as he meets his love, LoudmouthLee for the first time.
“I’m doing everything all wrong. Oh god, for shame!”
Meanwhile, in the sidelines, Eponine stifles a tear as she watches the love of her life embrace the beautiful daughter of the mysterious man who lives and No. 55 Rue de Plumet.
“I do not even know your name.”
She sits back against the gate, safely hidden from view, and tears cloud her eyes as a mysterious group silently walk into the garden.
“Dear madameoiselle… Won’t you say? Will you tell?”
The leader of the group draws a pistol from his overcoat.
“A heart full of love! No fear, no regret!”
A shot rings out into the silence.
“My name… is Marius… Pont… mer… cy.”
Vikingfan slumps forward.
LoudmouthLee runs upstairs, tears flooding her eyes.
She draws a decorative dagger in her room from its sheath.
She places it on her breast.
She looks up.
“And mine’s Cosette.”
The dagger falls from her lifeless hand.

Vikingfan, Marius Pontmercy (Mason) has been shot.
LoudmouthLee, Cosette (Self-protecting townie) has killed herself from grief.

Players still alive:
Changling Bob
Mr. Stoofer
LordKrishna
Gootentag
MeMe

With five alive, it's three to lynch.

It is now day 2.

[MeMe]

Welp - I'm suspicious of almost alll y'all. Some, obviously, to a greater degree than others.

Yesterday I believed it to be an almost sure thing that we couldn't have more than two scum. The appearance of a suicidal pro-town player sets that almost in concrete.

I'm for a mass claim at this point -- role names first...mechanics if the names haven't told us enough. Any objections?

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm suspicious of almost alll y'all. Some, obviously, to a greater degree than others

Surely Changling Bob and I are confirmed innocent? Bob is confirmed innocent by vikingfan being confirmed as a pro-town mason. I am surely innocent based on my repeated attempts to get EmpTyger lynched (which, before you ask, was based entirely on what he was posting).

That means it must be gootentag or LordKrishna. Looking at their posts, and what EmpTyger said about them, from yesterday, I'm going to

FOS LordKrishna

for now.

I'm for a mass claim at this point -- role names first...mechanics if the names haven't told us enough. Any objections?

I think that this would be a good idea and obviously I'd like nominate LordKrishna to go first. Before we do this, though, why do you think you were not targetted last night - since you were pretty much cleared as a result of your duel with EmpTyger? The only logic in EmpTyger claiming to be Valjean was because he wanted the real Valjean dead. The fact that you are still alive casts a shadow over you, does it not?

[Changling bob]

<snip>I am surely innocent based on my repeated attempts to get EmpTyger lynched (which, before you ask, was based entirely on what he was posting).<snip>

I think that, in confirmed is a

strong

word to use here. Although it appears as though you are pro town, just because you pressed for a scum's lynch doesn't prove that you are.

Concerning the end of yesterday:

I logged on and checked the thread a couple of posts after MeMe counter-claimed. Up to this point I was more inclined to believe EmpTyger, but the counter-claim made me

much

less sure, and I printed out the entire thread to review in terms of 'who is scum'. Then EmpTyger got lynched. Then I reread the thread.

Currently, I am in favor of a mass roleclaim, but then I think I'm a little biased, seeing as I've already claimed everything about me.

At the moment, I want to reread the entire thread again, to see why anyone would want to go after vikingfan, when it would appear that other people are perhaps more likely targets (read: I would've targeted other people if I were scum, which I have been proven not to be by vikingfan's death.)

And I agree about LordKrishna claiming first...

In other news, I used neither of my abilities last night, as vikingfan and myself agreed that any results today would be the results of his finding Cosette, due to the possibily-not-pro-town-abilityness of it all.

[gootentag]

At this point I agree that a name-claim may be in order, so I will go first, I guess, although I think it's ust me and Mr Stoofer who have not claimed characters yet - Lord Krishna claimed Eponine, didn't he? If you guys want me to hold off untill LordKrishna gets in here I can, though.

Especially if LordKrishna is Eponine, per the day 2 scene, I'm interested in what you have to say as you were listed as present at the shooting. Did you see anything? Were you involved? o.O

Right now,

FOS: Mr. Stoofer

- you are by no means "confirmed innocent." Often times scum point at each other, sometimes with a vengence, to try and avoid suspicion or divide a bandwagon against one or another.

As for possible reasons why scum may have gone after vikingfan - a masonry is self-preserving in that it's members know each other to be legitimate townsfolk. Particularly if you have (or had?) the ability to recruit, this is considerably threatning and they probably wanted to keep it under control as much as possible.
Cosette's death seems a moderator convention to circumvent the self-protecting role. Perhaps the game is more balanced than I was reading into it yesterday.

[gootentag]

Edit - "I will go first" should be "I can go first" -

Edit 2 - it's just me and Mr. Stoofer.

I missed this earlier -

FOS: LordKrishna

in addition to beeing present at the shooting, you apparently had Mr. Hugo's pistol from the lynch scene yesterday. It may be coincidental flavor writing, but I think it's worth discussing and taking note of.

[Mr Stoofer]

I don't think LordKrishna has claimed Eponine. If he did, I missed it. Where was it?

[MeMe]

Surely Changling Bob and I are confirmed innocent? Bob is confirmed innocent by vikingfan being confirmed as a pro-town mason.

No one can confirm their mason partner as "pro-town" -- I've speculated (as have others, I believe) that the masons may be split in alignment to balance the game. I'm open-minded today.

I am surely innocent based on my repeated attempts to get EmpTyger lynched (which, before you ask, was based entirely on what he was posting).

Attempts that didn't equal a lynch. As I said, some are more suspicious to me than others -- but no one is absolutely cleared in my mind.

That means it must be gootentag or LordKrishna.

Um...well...you're leaving

me

off this list. Which is odd, considering the rest of your post.

I think that this would be a good idea and obviously I'd like nominate LordKrishna to go first. Before we do this, though, why do you think you were not targetted last night - since you were pretty much cleared as a result of your duel with EmpTyger?

The most innocent-looking person in the game often gets doc protection and, correct me if I'm wrong, I think I might have been tagged as such after yesterday.

The only logic in EmpTyger claiming to be Valjean was because he wanted the real Valjean dead. The fact that you are still alive casts a shadow over you, does it not?

It does not. And if you thought it did, I assume you'd have me on your short list of where the mafia "must be." It would have been pretty easy for me to back off of ET yesterday when almost

everyone

believed he was joking (even if they ultimately thought he was scum despite the joke).

Lord Krishna claimed Eponine, didn't he?

I didn't have this in my notes -- and I'm having trouble finding it now. Can you point me toward the claim?