Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[Changling bob]

<snip>I know others disagree, but I could easily accept a set up with 2 independent SKs, namley Thernadier and Javert. That would make me a standard doc and would make perfect sense. It would explan why there is only one Thernadier in the game. And it would explain LK's rather odd statements of late.

I think this is what I was trying to say towards the end of my last post, only less eloquently. Setting up a role to protect against both Thernardier and 'government agents' seems to me to be a very interesting way to have a doc who isn't just a doc. I'm not certain whether there's any chance of Thernardier and Javert being scum together, but wasn't it EmpTyger who brought up the idea of twin SKs earlier?

[Changling bob]

<snip>I know others disagree, but I could easily accept a set up with 2 independent SKs, namley Thernadier and Javert. That would make me a standard doc and would make perfect sense. It would explan why there is only one Thernadier in the game. And it would explain LK's rather odd statements of late.

I think this is what I was trying to say towards the end of my last post, only less eloquently. Setting up a role to protect against both Thernardier and 'government agents' seems to me to be a very interesting way to have a doc who isn't just a doc. I'm not certain whether there's any chance of Thernardier and Javert being scum together, but wasn't it EmpTyger who brought up the idea of twin SKs earlier?

[MeMe]

As we've only seen one kill nightly, if there are "twin SKs," they must be operating on opposite nights. And, with all the power claimed by the town, they'd have to be hella-strong to be expected to have a chance at winning singlehandedly. I still think a mafia team of two makes the most sense.

I don't think it's problematic for a scum team to be made of two characters who aren't a classic match.

Thenardier and Javert could be a scum team:
--because they both wanted to take Valjean down
--if the revolution is considered a

good

thing, neither were active in it (Javert working against it...Thenardier only working to profit by picking over the dead)

Thenardier and Enjolras could be a scum team:
--because they were both on the wrong side of the law (and I realize that Valjean fits here too)

[Mr Stoofer]

Or we could interpret the fact that Aleyn has been so faithful to the theme so far as being cover for a theme blowing-pairing such as the Bishop and Thernadier.

[I'm not suggesting that as a serious example but I think we should be careful about assuming that Aleyn is 100% faithful to the theme. That could be just what he wants us to think...]

I confess that I am finding this very difficult indeed.

[Changling bob]

<snip>
--because they were both on the wrong side of the law (and I realize that Valjean fits here too)

From what I'm aware of, didn't most of the characters we started out with fit into this category?

[MeMe]

The Bishop of Digne, Cosette, and Javert don't.

[Mr Stoofer]

Well I've slept on it again and still none of the possible permutations makes sense:

- gootentag can't be scum unless LordKrishna is lying. But if LordKrishna is lying then he must be the scum.

- LK/Javert can't be scum because (a) it doesn't make sense for Javert to be scum with Thernadier and (b) how did he get such a good read on gootentag?

- CB/Enjolras can't be the scum because that makes no sort of sense and anyway I am getting no scummy vibes from CB (a little CrapLogic aside)

- MeMe can't be the scum for a variety of reasons (or if she is, she deserves to win)

- I can't be the scum because I've read my PM and it says I'm not. (Not that that's much help to you guys.)

HELP!

[LordKrishna]

I don't believe Stoofer's claim. Thus, there's nothing incongruent about a cop wanting to lynch a potential 'doctor' -- I don't think he is one.

Why don't I believe it? In addition to the Town-is-too-powerful problem of old, I have detailed more reasons at the end of this post. For now, some responses to quotes of y'all. All 'you' (or 'he', in one case) refs. are pointed my way.

ChanglingBob: "You also seem to be happy to throw a vote around when no-one else has bothered. "
K: This is because I think that we need to lynch scum to win the game. A proactive solution.

gootentag: "It is not solely Mr. Stoofer's responsibility to find Mme Thenardier if she exists."
K: His claim indicates that she exists. This is the only evidence we have. I don't believe his claim. Therefore, he has to prove himself to me.

gootentag: "You washing your hands of finding scum is both suspicious and ironic for a claimed cop."
K: I'm not 'washing my hands of finding scum'. I'm voting for who I think fits that bill.

Mr. Stoofer: "I don't think that the he even gave a single reasons why I might be scum."
K: It's because your claim just doesn't make sense to me.

Let's look at the claim.

"Every night I choose someone to hang around. As the estranged daughter of the Thernadiers, I will try frustrate [sic] them if they try to harm that person."
a) So, if you 'hang around' Javert tonight, you will try to frustrate me if I try to harm the Thenardiers?
b) Or is it that you protect ME from the THENARDIERS?
(This latter seems to have been how people interpreted this post, but I had initially read it the first way, esp. when paired with the next sentence. I am beginning to believe that it must have been meant the first way, but I am suspicious of it, as I think it makes town too powerful, as noted above.)

"Furthermore, because of my time acting as a lookout for my parents, I will out of habit distract any government agents that try to do anything to the person I am hanging around."
So if I were to investigate the Thenardiers, she would distract me (presumably causing an innocent result)? This either seems like it works with choice (a) above, in which case, you behave scummily, or it works against choice (b), assuming that 'government agents' refers to Javert (the only figure of the govt. that I can think of). In the case of incongruity, it makes your claim hard to believe.

Now does it make sense why Mr. Stoofer's claim seems suspect to me? Thematically, as a government agent, I am interested in not having someone around who thwarts me, and I would see that as breaking the law (aiding and abetting a criminal). Furthermore, assuming people's role claims are all true, Eponine seems the best candidate to be scum to me (as opposed to Valjean, the hero of the story; Enjolras, the courageous rebel; the noble Bishop of Digne, who gives even his silver candlesticks away to redeem the soul of a criminal; or Javert, the policeman -- a tragic figure bound to his duty, who realizes his quest has been after a noble man, and gives up his own life, unable to bear the contradiction).

What's Eponine all about? She's essentially the wicked stepsister of Cosette, right? Or am I missing something else from the story here?

-K

[Mr Stoofer]

Thanks, that post really helps. I was already thinking that my reasons why LK couldn't be scum were probably the least convincing of the lot.

LordKrishna, please could you explain how I can be scum and yet behave the way I did to EmpTyger on day 1. For convenience, the facts are as follows:

OK, let’s clear this up. If you look at my posting on day 1

as a whole

it is fairly unlikely that I was in league with EmpTyger. (Numbers refer to post numbers.)

4

12 March: I random vote EmpTyger. Nothing in that of course, but it is interesting in light of what happens later.

12

12 March: Beginning of the LML v MeMe “catfight”. Instead of taking one of the sides (which I surely would have done if I was scum)...

31

13 March and

48

14 March: ...I try to put a stop to the catfight...

57

15 March: ... and instead I pick up on LML’s suspicions of EmpTyger and set out detailed reasons why he is suspicious.

65

16 March and

81

20 March: I stick to my guns in light of EmpTyger’s robust defence.

83

March 20: I eventually unvote him.

Everyone else unvotes EmpTyger and there is no pressure on him at all (a few FOSes, no votes) until…

180

March 30: I suggest as “radical suggestion no. 2” lynching EmpTyger. No one takes me up on the offer.

192

I FOSsed MeMe because I thought she ought to have agreed with gootentag (and in the end, I think maybe she did).

215

April 4: I voted EmpTYger yet again. I expressly said that it was not based on his “April Fool’s joke”. This was

before

MeMe’s counterclaim.

224

April 5: I express scepticism about EmpTyger’s Valjean claim (

before

MeMe’s counterclaim) and explain why I found a recent post of EmpTyger’s scummy.

237

April 6: Following MeMe’s counterclaim, I set out in detail why I believed we should lynch EmpTyger. It was far from clear which way the town would go at this stage. I was genuinely troubled by the fact that I thought it would be idiocy for EmpTyger to claim Valjean if he was not Valjean (that was why I was doubtful). But in the end this post was a powerful attack on EmpTyger at a pivotal moment.

239

April 6: I stick to my guns again.

In light of this, if I am scum with EmpTyger I must be psychotic.

Unless I get a good explanantion as to how I can be scum with EmpTyger in light of this I am going to vote for you.

PS: to clarify my role (I did ask the mod about this): I distract anyone (thug or government agent) who targets my target. My target is not affected and can kill/investigate/protect/communicate as they wish.

[Changling bob]

The Bishop of Digne, Cosette, and Javert don't.

Six scum to three town seems unbalanced to me

Another thought as to LordKrishna's claim. Why can't he be scum and cop? Assuming for a moment that it isn't just a plain 'scum|non-scum' cop, it would be beneficial for the scum to be able to find out who a possible doc/cop/vig/whatever could be. (I'm bringing this up now since I've just built a random setup generator (for use later), and this happens from time to time on it.)

And besides, you've just responded to a whole bunch of questions and said very little. A serious amount of fluff, but very little that actually answers the questions raised.

[Mr Stoofer]

Another thought as to LordKrishna's claim. Why can't he be scum and cop? Assuming for a moment that it isn't just a plain 'scum|non-scum' cop, it would be beneficial for the scum to be able to find out who a possible doc/cop/vig/whatever could be. (I'm bringing this up now since I've just built a random setup generator (for use later), and this happens from time to time on it.)

I don't understand this.

[Changling bob]

*rephrases*

LordKrishna could be both scum and cop if he were a role investigator. This would benefit the scum group (and possibly balance the town) as they could hunt out docs/cops/whatever.

[Mr Stoofer]

[Changling bob]

Meh.

I'm just trying to come up with reasons that LordKrishna had such a good handle on gootentag's role.

[LordKrishna]

I'm sticking with my vote for now. It doesn't matter to me that you're not allied with EmpTyger, as I see no reason why you couldn't be another SK.

Got another target that you think looks better for me to vote for? Let me know, and I'd switch, provided your reasoning made more sense to me.

I realize, all, that I'm the only one voting. I don't think this makes me scummy -- far from it. I think that the lynch today is the only way for us to catch and kill scum. And I don't want the game to stall.

Bob, name something(s?) I didn't answer. I'll try to address it(/them?) in my next post.

-K

[gootentag]

Meh.

I'm just trying to come up with reasons that LordKrishna had such a good handle on gootentag's role.

If he was lying about investigating me, the results he gave could have been construed to fit any one of us. It makes sense that if he

didn't

have a good handle on my role that he would try something like that to see what he could milk out of it claimwise and throw suspicion at someone and still be able to justify a mislynch the next day.

Combined with his constant insistance that Eponine alone has to somehow prove the existance of a Mme Thenardier, I think it's possible that you

are

Mme T., and that's why you are both trying to distract attention from role, confuse everyone else in the town with erronious results, and throw suspicion at the town doctor, who in the absence of a true cop, is arguably the biggest power role in the game.

[MeMe]

Ooooh....interesting possibility, gootentag.

[Mr Stoofer]

But gootentag, if LordKrishna is not Javert then (a) Javert is not in the game and (b) LK took a potentially suicidal risk in claiming Javert. I find both of these unlikely. [I thought

you

were Javert, on the basis that Javert would be prohibited form any extra-legal activities such as lynching.]

That aside, I am moving more and more towards a vote for LK based on all the other points previously made. We now have numerous plausible explanations for how could he could have obtained his "result" on gootentag and yet still be scum.

MeMe, I would like to know your views.

[Changling bob]

LordKrishna:
From your earlier post:

<snip>ChanglingBob: "You also seem to be happy to throw a vote around when no-one else has bothered. "
K: This is because I think that we need to lynch scum to win the game. A proactive solution.

This is true.

gootentag: "It is not solely Mr. Stoofer's responsibility to find Mme Thenardier if she exists."
K: His claim indicates that she exists. This is the only evidence we have. I don't believe his claim. Therefore, he has to prove himself to me.

This seems almost political in its answering of a different question to the one asked. You're earlier point is being contradicted, yet you don't really try to defend it, you say something else instead. Just because Mr Stoofer's claim mentions the Thernadiers, it doesn't mean that Mme Thernadier is in the game, and saying it is one person's responsibility to find scum is wrong: that's the job of the whole town.

gootentag: "You washing your hands of finding scum is both suspicious and ironic for a claimed cop."
K: I'm not 'washing my hands of finding scum'. I'm voting for who I think fits that bill.

You are washing your hands of finding scum, as you are claiming it is Mr Stoofer's job to find it. And then voting him also completely contradicts the point of saying he must find scum, as this leaves him less chance to anyway.

Mr. Stoofer: "I don't think that the he even gave a single reasons why I might be scum."
K: It's because your claim just doesn't make sense to me.

A claim not making sense does not make the claimer scum.

Let's look at the claim. <snip of analysis of claim>

Mr Stoofer is (essentially) claiming that he is a doc. What is not to understand? I think you are probably trying to misconstrue what he said to bring suspicion against him. And failing.

I, like Mr Stoofer, am approaching placing a vote on you.

Also,

MeMe, I would like to know your views.

Seconded

[MeMe]

Regarding the possibility of LK being Mme. Thenardier -- I think it's simply interesting. I'm on record as doubting the existence of the role, but LK made it clear that he thinks it might exist (by attacking my thoughts about the absence of "Monsieur" for EmpTyger's role) and then later made it sound as though Stoofer's the only one who does -- at least role-wise.

LK stayed out of the discussion about Javert's alignment (which I think the real Javert may have done), but then there's post #139 in which he suggests that the masons are the only power roles...when, if he's a cop/vigilante (as he claims), he'd know better. Could've been a trap to see who'd go "yeah - that's probably it!" -- but he didn't follow up on it...and even if someone had leaped on the theory, it'd certainly not be indicative of that person being scum.

As for taking a "risk" by claiming Javert if he actually isn't...I don't believe this is true. When he claimed, Cb and I were already out...gootentag said he thought Javert would be SK or godfather (in post 25) - so he's obviously not going to claim Javert...and Stoofer said in post 191 that Javert would be an "obviously scummy role - so

he's

obviously not going to claim Javert.

Still - after all that - I'm afraid...very afraid...that Changling bob's the remaining scum and that Lord Krishna has just been tossing red herrings left and right.

[Mr Stoofer]

Still - after all that - I'm afraid...very afraid...that Changling bob's the remaining scum and that Lord Krishna has just been tossing red herrings left and right.

I know how you feel.

Normally with 5 left, 1 scum (as we all seem to think is the case here), the town would have 2 chances to lynch scum to win. But if gootentag genuinely cannot vote

ever

, then its lynch and lose, isn't it? Because If we lynch town today, tomorrow there will probably be 1 townie who can vote, 1 who can't and one scum: a guaranteed scum win.

Gootentag, I would be grateful if you could explain what you understand would happen in this situation - asking the mod for clarification if necessary. [Obviously the mod is not going answer my questions on the subject, since any response he might give me would risk confirming or denying your claimed mechanic.]

[Changling bob]

Still - after all that - I'm afraid...very afraid...that Changling bob's the remaining scum and that Lord Krishna has just been tossing red herrings left and right.

What is it you find so scummy about me? The last set of points you posted I answered, so can you explain so I can defend myself please.

[Changling bob]

Hot damn, crossposting. Any chance you can answer my question Mr Stoofer?

[Mr Stoofer]

All

I

meant to say is that I am afraid that you may be scum, not that I think you are scum. I just don't know who the scum is.

[MeMe]

The last set of points you posted I answered, so can you explain so I can defend myself please.

Same stuff, Cb. Yes, you "answered" -- but that doesn't mean I've bought your answers.

Might as well get this over with first.

<snip>
--The role name
--The claimed mechanics (if he's town...what if he recruits scum into his group? Just doesn't seem to work except in a cult/scum capacity)
--Backing up EmpTyger yesterday
--And the thing that's catching my eye most prominently at the moment (huge examples in posts 308 & 312): he's admitting that he understands the allegations against him. When I'm town and being unfairly accused, I tend to think my accusers are imbeciles and go to great lengths to explain how what I said is in

no way

scummy...even if I've made errors. Conceding points against oneself looks guilty to me.
<snip>

To go through your points in order:
--In what way would Enjolras be connected to Thenardier in a scum based capacity?
--I don't know what happens if I recruit scum. I'd rather not try it out if it's all the same to you
--I made a mistake. I laughed at a joke. Then you claimed and I didn't get time between your claim and the lynch to voice my suspicions.
--Well if you're willing to accept that you are, in fact, an imbecile, then I'll happily treat you like one. As is, I'll deal with your arguements as I see them.

I agree that there's no way for you to tell that I haven't used my recruitment ability, but then there's no way for any of us to confirm who anybody else used their ability on, or even what they are.

--As I've said, I don't think that the scum group has to be a

natural

fit.
--I'd rather you not try to recruit at all...and I'm stuck on the possibility that you're scum and recruiting gives you

another

scum at this point. But, regardless, you didn't answer the question about what

might

happen if you recruit scum -- you just dodged it with an "I'm not gonna"
--So you say. But, from my perspective, it was you who gave legs to the "joke" by taking up the cause so vehemently. The only part of ET's post series that I interpreted as a true joke was the one in which he actually

said

"April Fool's" (the one I said "heh" to) -- I thought he was trying to lighten the mood after his horrible blunder. It looked to me as though you breathed life into his defense when you attacked me -- then ET saw a glimmer of hope and ran with it.
--And that one's not an answer...it's a comeback.

But I've obviously not made up my mind, so please keep talking.