Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[Mr Stoofer]

Everyone is quite right: nobody, including me, is cleared. I think my attitutide towards EmpTyger on Day 1 is [chooses words carefully]

good evidence

[/chooses words carefully] of my innocence. I'll set it out in excrutiating detail if necessary.

[MeMe]

Oh - and let me clarify the "that didn't result in a lynch" comment (which is confusing on the screen, but clear in my mind).

Your vote/suspicions weren't the cause of him being in the noose. Your vote came after I expressed concerns about the "joke" -- and you removed it when you noticed it put him in danger. At that point, scum had nothing to lose by voting their partner (ET) -- he would be exposed as a liar sooner or later, so pitching in for his demise is not bad play. But it was not your vote/comments that

got

him lynched.

Prior to this, you were FOSing

me

-- that you still seem interested in pursuing that course of suspicion when you've claimed that your role tells you who the scum are (and Valjean ain't one) does nothing to take the sheen of suspicion from you.

[Mr Stoofer]

OK, let’s clear this up. If you look at my posting on day 1

as a whole

it is fairly unlikely that I was in league with EmpTyger. (Numbers refer to post numbers.)

4

12 March: I random vote EmpTyger. Nothing in that of course, but it is interesting in light of what happens later.

12

12 March: Beginning of the LML v MeMe “catfight”. Instead of taking one of the sides (which I surely would have done if I was scum)...

31

13 March and

48

14 March: ...I try to put a stop to the catfight...

57

15 March: ... and instead I pick up on LML’s suspicions of EmpTyger and set out detailed reasons why he is suspicious.

65

16 March and

81

20 March: I stick to my guns in light of EmpTyger’s robust defence.

83

March 20: I eventually unvote him.

Everyone else unvotes EmpTyger and there is no pressure on him at all (a few FOSes, no votes) until…

180

March 30: I suggest as “radical suggestion no. 2” lynching EmpTyger. No one takes me up on the offer.

192

I FOSsed MeMe because I thought she ought to have agreed with gootentag (and in the end, I think maybe she did).

215

April 4: I voted EmpTYger yet again. I expressly said that it was not based on his “April Fool’s joke”. This was

before

MeMe’s counterclaim.

224

April 5: I express scepticism about EmpTyger’s Valjean claim (

before

MeMe’s counterclaim) and explain why I found a recent post of EmpTyger’s scummy.

237

April 6: Following MeMe’s counterclaim, I set out in detail why I believed we should lynch EmpTyger. It was far from clear which way the town would go at this stage. I was genuinely troubled by the fact that I thought it would be idiocy for EmpTyger to claim Valjean if he was not Valjean (that was why I was doubtful). But in the end this post was a powerful attack on EmpTyger at a pivotal moment.

239

April 6: I stick to my guns again.

In light of this, if I am scum with EmpTyger I must be psychotic.

I thought it was important to set this out in case someone claims my role when we do the role claim thing.

[LordKrishna]

Personally, I don't think a mass claim is a good idea.
ChanglingBob claimed Enjolras
MeMe claimed Valjean
gootentag, Mr. Stoofer, and I have not yet claimed (this despite gootentag's blatant misread of my Eponine post -- more later).

Why do I bring this up? It would be relatively easy for the remaining scum to simply wait and claim a role that the other two characters haven't. Does it gain us (Town) anything? No. But it does gain a lot for the remaining scum -- he may be able to deduce who has a power role among those of us who remain and kill them the next night, if we fail to successfully lynch tonight.

That means it must be gootentag or LordKrishna. Looking at their posts, and what EmpTyger said about them, from yesterday, I'm going to

FOS LordKrishna

for now.

I fail to see how EmpTyger said anything implicating me -- care to point this out?

In other news, I used neither of my abilities last night, as vikingfan and myself agreed that any results today would be the results of his finding Cosette, due to the possibily-not-pro-town-abilityness of it all.

Here is what happened to vikingfan and LoudmouthLee -- vikingfan "sent Eponine to find Cosette". Once this happened, Eponine betrayed them both, causing them both to die. Eponine is clearly scum, no?

gootentag raises an interesting point. It is interesting because of how ludicrous it is -- he claims that I have claimed to be Eponine. Now, this is problematic on two fronts: 1) I have not claimed Eponine, so it's pretty demonstrably false; 2) I have been arguing all along that Eponine is likely scum, based on Marius' power -- the revelation that Thenardier was scum makes this only more likely (more later).

Why are you so eager to implicate me in such an obviously false way? This seems like poor play to me, as if you simply didn't read very carefully. This is bad for Town. We need to read very carefully, and make sure of our decision -- only 5 people left. We don't have a guaranteed loss if we mislynch, but that doesn't mean we have a whole lot of error room...

This, too, is ridiculous, gootentag:

FOS: LordKrishna in addition to beeing present at the shooting, you apparently had Mr. Hugo's pistol from the lynch scene yesterday.

First, let me now point out that the flavor text also mentions the Sword of Damocles. Does this mean that this self-same sword has appeared in our game? No. It means that is Aelyn having fun writing good death scenes.
Second, assuming that the flavor text IS in some way reflective of reality: in the flavor text, I take Hugo's pistol from him and finish EmpTyger off. He was Thenardier, a scum. So this is far from making me a suspicious character. You, on the other hand, refused to vote for Thenardier, citing 'role-based reasons'. I put it to you, gootentag, that you are in fact Eponine, the daughter of Thenardier. Not having the heart to off the old man, you watched as we killed this insidious criminal, then, crying, you sent off Cosette and Marius to their deaths as well.

(Perhaps the above is a bit melodramatic, but I think gootentag is FAR from free from suspicion --

FOS: gootentag

).

MeMe:

The most innocent-looking person in the game often gets doc protection and, correct me if I'm wrong, I think I might have been tagged as such after yesterday.

How many scum do you think are left? If one person got shot by scum, then there wasn't another scum to try to kill you. I think that it's more likely that there is no doctor (also: Town over-powered issue), and that the scum tried to kill someone else to throw suspicion on you.

-K

[MeMe]

The most innocent-looking person in the game often gets doc protection and, correct me if I'm wrong, I think I might have been tagged as such after yesterday.

How many scum do you think are left? If one person got shot by scum, then there wasn't another scum to try to kill you. I think that it's more likely that there is no doctor (also: Town over-powered issue), and that the scum tried to kill someone else to throw suspicion on you.

If you read my comment in context, you'll see that I wasn't saying I thought I was targeted, but was simply answering Stoofer's question to me about my thoughts on why I

wasn't

. It

could

be to make me look guilty (and Stoofer's line about me still being alive "cast[ing] a shadow" over me indicates that's what

he

thinks it does), but I was offering a viable reason for me not being targeted at all last night: i.e. because scum, if (s)he thought I was the most likely to be protected, wouldn't have wanted to risk wasting a kill.

Based on something quite specific in Marius's death scene, I do

not

think that Eponine is mafia. I still think a mass name claim is a good idea.

[gootentag]

After doing an exhaustive search for Eponine throught the entire thread, I was indeed mistaken when I thought LordKrishna claimed Eponine, for which I appologise. I also admit that this debunks my theory of LordKrishna (who grabbed the pistol) neccecarily being Eponine (present at the shooting.) The Sword of Damoclese reference is mentioned metaphorically while the pistol was used to shoot in both instances - If I were correct about you claiming Eponine, I still believe it would have been a valid point.

I however, am not Eponine, and if I were, why would I have drawn attention to myself for bringing it up? I also note that while you were quick to throw the role back at me, you did not claim a role yourself and are against a mass claim. What are you hiding?

I didn't vote for EmpTyger for role based reasons - MY role, not his. Again, I can clarify if we agree on the mass-claim idea, but since you have been called out to come foreward first, I'll still hold off on mine until instructed to do otherwise.

[MeMe]

gootentag - are you claiming to

still

be unable to vote?

[Changling bob]

@MeMe: Why should gootentag's ability have changed overnight? If he couldn't vote yesterday, why shuold he be able to today?

@gootentag: Can you actually not vote, as this is a verifiable ability. If you cannot vote, then if you post a vote on anyone then we get a postcount, it wouldn't show as a vote. If you are unwilling to vote because of some ability, then obviously this plan doesn't work.

@LordKrishna: Why are you against a mass name-claim. The same is true of any game you can think of; that the last people, if scum, could make up something that hasn't already been used. It's a calculated risk to take, and it gives ideas on whose name is false. If a name claim fails, we could then move onto a roleclaim and see if there are any inconsitencies between roles and names, or roles and roles, or anything else. And why should Eponine be scum if vikingfan died? If she killed vikingfan, then wouldn't there have been another death from the mafia from their night choices, rather than just relying on what townies decided to do?

[MeMe]

@MeMe: Why should gootentag's ability have changed overnight? If he couldn't vote yesterday, why shuold he be able to today?

Let me answer your question

with

a question: why should we assume that his claimed inability to vote would be static throughout the entire game when he's not said that was the case?

For all I know, it changes when there's a certain number of players left...or it was *just* for day one...or he was simply bluffing so that scum would keep him alive as a non-threat...basically, I'd rather him tell me what the deal is than to assume such an odd mechanic would be stagnant.

[LordKrishna]

I'm probably going to be unable to post for two days (last-minute visit to Chicago, visiting law schools I got into). That said, I'm willing to claim my role, I have no problem with that. It just seems to me that a mass-claim is a bad idea, as it would give the scum info, and I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to claim a scummy role...

I am Inspector Javert. I am allowed to investigate, and to make arrests based on the results. From what I gather, this is essentially a night-kill. (I have not made any).

In the discussion, there has been talk of doubting Javert's sanity. I did as well (after all, he wrongfully pursues Jean Valjean endlessly in the book), so I was careful. I did correctly get an innocent result (for LoudMouthLee), so it's not as if I thnk everyone is guilty in my eyes or whatever. I did think that an investigation of MeMe would probably turn up a false guilty result, so I didn't do that, instead trying to get more information...

So, on the second night, I investigated gootentag. I got the result that you have shady Underworld associations, and that you yourself were just shady enough to arrest, but that doing so would feel wrong, somehow. Hence, I'd like you to explain what your Underworld connections are, if they are not simply that you are Eponine, the daughter of Thenardier (as I posited in the last post).

I'm not suspicious of MeMe, and while your role makes me uneasy, you don't appear to be scum (in my eyes), and I absolutely know that I'm not scum. That leaves ChanglingBob and Mr. Stoofer. I don't think it's likely for Bob to be scum, as it means he would have killed his own Mason partner, and from this I would be termpted to deduce that Mr. Stoofer is scum, but I realize that Bob is still a wild card (as he could, as MeMe points out, still be scum, but with a Pro-Town partner) so I'm not yet ready to vote.

Be back as soon as I can (perhaps I can post from the library, briefly, tomorrow, enough to weigh in or vote, as necessary).
-K

[gootentag]

Ok, since the discussion seems to be leaning this way, I'll post a full claim - I am Monsieur Bienvenu, Bishop of Digne. Seeing the value of all human life, I am morally opposed to lynching - voting would result in a modkill. I can however, send in one name other than my own each night and protect that person from being lynched the following day.

From a numbers standpoint, I can see how my existance by itself can be seen as a liability for the town in that it screws up especially endgame voting. If we hit a dead end, lynching me might be a good idea just to raise the ratio of voting town players. However, I'm obviously not advocating this course of action beforehand...

[gootentag]

Missed LordKrishna's previous post - the only thing I can think of that I have done is that I covered for Valjean/lied to the officers pursuing him. I figured that was the basis for the lynch-proofing part of my ability, but have no idea why you would get mixed results like that.

[Changling bob]

Well the claims so far are... interesting.

Will post further thoughts once Mr Stoofer and MeMe have claimed.

[Mr Stoofer]

I am Eponine.

The flavourtext in my role PM makes it quite clear that the Thernadiers (my parents, from whom I have run away and whom I am avoiding) are scum, which at one time I thought was a valuable and exciting piece of information, but I now realise was blindingly obvious.

[MeMe]

I've already claimed...so you're not waiting on me.

[Changling bob]

MeMe or Mr. Stoofer, do either of you have abilities, as all of myself, gootentag and LordKrishna have claimed abilities as well as roles.

[MeMe]

I claimed and used my ability yesterday when I sent the game into early twilight by finishing off EmpTyger myself. Remember?

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm not sold on the idea of claiming abilities (MeMe said we shouldn't) but if we do I would like MeMe to explain hers more fully.

As to the role claims, I think its fair to assume that Valjean and Javert are in this game, and since no one has counterclaimed (except EmpTyger), MeMe and LordKrishna are likely telling the truth. In my mind at least, I am sure CB is indeed Enjolras. I think it is clear that Eponine is in the game and again, that can only be me. That leaves gootentag = the bishop as

my

only area of doubt. Does anyone have any reason to doubt any of the other claims? (I am ignoring the question of alignment for now.)

Can I ask those with more familiarity with the book:

1. Is the bishop of comparable stature to the other characters that we know are in the game? Or is he much more minor that the others?

[In this connection I note that EmpTyger made a point on Day 1 of saying how minor Grantaire (Seol) was].

2. Are there lots of other characters in the book who could have produced the result that gootentag apparently did? ie:

you have shady Underworld associations, and that you yourself were just shady enough to arrest, but that doing so would feel wrong, somehow

[Mr Stoofer]

Sorry, I should clarify this comment:

I note that EmpTyger made a point on Day 1 of saying how minor Grantaire (Seol) was

I interpreted EmpTyger's comment as laying the ground for a false claim to a fairly minor character, which he could be confident that no-one else would have, which he could justify by saying "but Grantaire is also a minor character!".

EmpTyger did not adopt this strategy in the end. But it is possible that he was laying the ground for his mafia buddy to do so.

[Changling bob]

I claimed and used my ability yesterday when I sent the game into early twilight by finishing off EmpTyger myself. Remember?

Except that the death scene shows LordKrishna, who voted last, finishing off EmpTyger, not you.

Anyway, this is neither here nor there at the moment as I believe you for now.

So assuming no-one is lying (which someone must be), town started with: two masons (one with a narrow cop ability, one who can recruit), a (variably accurate) cop and vig combi role, a self-protecting townie, a 'daytime doctor' who can't vote, a day-killer, and two townies.

Logically then, scum started with two mafia, plus the self-protecting townie dies when a specific townie dies.

I think this is too powerful for the town (beyond the fact that there's one person more above than actually in the game). Now I realise that I could be wrong, but I feel that one of the more power roles is probably lying, as this does balance the game more than it is.

At the moment no-one sticks out enough to me enough to vote.

[Mr Stoofer]

Changling Bob: I haven't said whether or not I am a plain townie.

[MeMe]

Stoofer - the Bishop of Digne is the agent of change for Jean Valjean. As for "stature" -- he kicks off the story, but isn't involved after that (except a mention of his death, which JV observed and mourned). He and Javert are my favorite characters in the book. goot's mechanic makes sense for the role he claimed.

A couple of observations:
--The death scene describes the shooter as a male & a group leader.
--EmpTyger's name is given as simply "Thenardier" -- not Monsieur Thenardier. Because of this, I think it's possible that Madame is not in the game.

[Mr Stoofer]

The death scene describes the shooter as a male & a group leader.

Is that a FOS: Enjolras?

[MeMe]

That's a dicey one. Of the names claimed, he's the only one who'd be described as a leader of a group -- and I can't think of any unclaimed main characters who would fit with that description either. Thenardier's the only other possibility and he's dead. In Enjolras's introductory description in the book, it's said that he is "capable of being terrible" and he was openly disdainful of Marius's pursuing of romance during revolutionary times -- the book says "He had but one passion, the right; but one thought, to remove all obstacles.... He was severe in his pleasures. Before everything but the republic, he chastely dropped his eyes. He was the marble lover of liberty. His speech was roughly inspired and had the tremor of a hymn. He astonished you by his soaring. Woe to the love affair that should venture to intrude upon him!" That said, I have a hard time believing that it'd be that simple...that the mod would give us a picture of who we're looking for in the morning scene (but stranger things

have

happened).

I said before that I believe that it would make sense, in a game this size, to balance the sides by splitting the mason group's alignments. I also think that if someone's an evil side of a mason group -- killing his/her partner's not a bad idea as others could say "surely the surviving partner is cleared" (as you did, Stoofer).

I'm also still getting hung up on the fact that it was CB who was the first and most adamant that I'd been taken as a fool yesterday...but that could just be my wounded pride speaking (despite the fact that I've now been proven absolutely correct).

So, I'm not sure enough to be FOSing -- I just wanted to share my most current observations.

[MeMe]

Here is the link from which I took my quotes -- I realize that there are different translations and I don't want to create confusion.