Mini 754 - Frogs Mafia Game, Set and Match.

[Gorrad]

Word? Don't you know about the bird? Well, everyone knows that the bird is a word.

Aaaaaaand enough of that froggy bull (GET IT? IT'S A PUN!).

FoS: MBF

for being a traitor to one of your kin.

On the other hand, Michigan is an land populated entirely by criminals, as everyone knows, and criminals are used to not being trusted, as CW is not trusted by you, so not only can he not choose the wine in front of you, but your suspicion of him is founded on solid evidence.

UnFoS

.

TSQ is probably town by virtue of being totally unhelpful. He's like Flameaxe that way.

[Gorrad]

...And I swapped people in my head again. Frik. You're right, unhelpfulness isn't your meta. I was thinking of someone else.

[Gorrad]

Hey Gorrad, I remember a game where TSQ played exactly like he has so far. Do you?

...Come to think of it, I do. Recall what allignment he was?

[Gorrad]

Word? Don't you know about the bird? Well, everyone knows that the bird is a word.

Aaaaaaand enough of that froggy bull (GET IT? IT'S A PUN!).

FoS: MBF

for being a traitor to one of your kin.

On the other hand, Michigan is an land populated entirely by criminals, as everyone knows, and criminals are used to not being trusted, as CW is not trusted by you, so not only can he not choose the wine in front of you, but your suspicion of him is founded on solid evidence.

UnFoS

.

TSQ is probably town by virtue of being totally unhelpful. He's like Flameaxe that way.

if everyone in Michigan are criminals, then aren't the both scum
:teach:

Psh, being a criminal == flavor != allignment.

[Gorrad]

vote: Gorrad

Obviously, if you know so much about Michigan's large crime population, then you have either done enough research, or spent enough time in the state to easily have fallen prey to their shady activities.

I spent time there primarily building up an immunity to iocane powder.

WIFOMOMGUS Vote: Kloud1516

[Gorrad]

Hi I'm here!

Hi say something with a point!

[Gorrad]

Hi I'm here!

Hi say something with a point!

seems kind of hypocritical since you haven't really said anything contentful as well

Perhaps not, but it's sure better than 'hi'.

[Gorrad]

Ok, TSQ, now you're just being ridiculous.

[Gorrad]

Gorrad, I don't think TSQ is being ridiculous. He's probably been the most helpful so far. Unless there's some way for you to simply this scum hunt (like, you know, confesss?)

Right. Giving random people the third degree regarding other people is scumhunting. I'd like to see some semblence of WHY he's asking random person A about random person B and not just trying to seem helpful while acomplishing nothing.

Also, personal pet peeve, asking someone unfoundedly to "confess". Serious question: When was the last time someone said "Hey, lookit me, I'm against the town!" when pressed like that? It just irks me to no end.


I really misphrased earlier. It was less that I swapped him with another person, and more that I swapped his allignment. In Kleptomafiac, he was going through some personal issues. I had both forgotten that there were personal issues involved and that he was SK (I remembered when ML mentioned it), and only remembered playing a game in which TSQ was generally inactive. I screwed up that bit completely, it was a case of my simply completely forgetting the circumstances of the meta. Sorry.

[Gorrad]

No I wasn't random voting to look protown, i was random voting for the sake of random voting.

You weren't being asked if you were voting to look protown, you were asked if it was one of your norms. Guilty conscience?

Unvote, Vote: Crywolf

.

[Gorrad]

Yeah. I didn't see the part ML quoted. I scanned that post pretty thoroughly, too.

Unvote

.

I agree, Karne. I think random votes are fine if consistent with meta. I wasn't jumping on about random votes, I was jumping on because I thought I saw CW answer a question not asked regarding allignment, which is generally bad.

[Gorrad]

My current take on the Hatorade/TSQ situation is about 80% WIFOM that would detract from the game. I think Hatorade's town, he seems sincere enough. Jury's out on TSQ- this is where the WIFOM comes in.

[Gorrad]

Wait...whut?

[Gorrad]

Oh! I thought that said 'vote', rather than 'unvote'. Readfail! Sorry.

[Gorrad]

sorry for not posting, marathon day and such

and again, why mention it? How were we suppose to know you start at 50%? Your posts so far seem fluffy. I need a point of reference to know what 70% means from you. Right now, you have left yourself room to maneuver around if you have to. What is my % and why? TSQ’s? Scot’s? Cry’s…and why? How does lurking affect your %s?

do you really think that he's scummy due to his grading (of scumminess) system? how is this any different from other players do? vollkan's a good example of this type of system.

also, i'm comfortable with a

vote Gorrad

right now for a few reasons.
one because of the clear hypocrisy he made in his calling out of Haterade.
next, i don't like how he dismisses the TSQ/Haterade as "WIFOM", which i don't really see how it is. it felt like he was commenting on it for the sake of commenting on it. finally, from what i remember of playing with him, he tends to be much more active and aggressive as town and i'm not seeing that in this game.

1. In which post did I call out Hatorade?
2. I didn't call the TSQ/Haterade argument WIFOM, I said my take on it was. In other words, if I stated my take on it, it would result in too much WIFOM that would muddle things up.
3. See Grimmmafia (not to be confused with Grimmafia). If I'm town, I have less of an active interest in the game and won't be very active unless either actively part of a conflict or if I smell a rat (like how I jumped when I thought a question was being answered that wasn't asked). If I'm scum, I've got more at stake trying to throw blame on others, so I'm more active. Give it time. I shouldn't be like this for long.

[Gorrad]

3. See Grimmmafia (not to be confused with Grimmafia). If I'm town, I have less of an active interest in the game and won't be very active unless either actively part of a conflict or if I smell a rat (like how I jumped when I thought a question was being answered that wasn't asked). If I'm scum, I've got more at stake trying to throw blame on others, so I'm more active. Give it time. I shouldn't be like this for long.

I don't like this post very much at all. Self-metas are okay in some situations trying to prove some points, but this is not one of them.

A fair opinion. What would you prefer?

[Gorrad]

24 hours with no posts? Odd.

funny you mention no posts...but you dont reply to my email...why is that?

Email?

[Gorrad]

Headed to New York City from the 14th through the 18th. LA, if not no access.

[Gorrad]

sorry for not posting, marathon day and such

and again, why mention it? How were we suppose to know you start at 50%? Your posts so far seem fluffy. I need a point of reference to know what 70% means from you. Right now, you have left yourself room to maneuver around if you have to. What is my % and why? TSQ’s? Scot’s? Cry’s…and why? How does lurking affect your %s?

do you really think that he's scummy due to his grading (of scumminess) system? how is this any different from other players do? vollkan's a good example of this type of system.

also, i'm comfortable with a

vote Gorrad

right now for a few reasons.
one because of the clear hypocrisy he made in his calling out of Haterade.
next, i don't like how he dismisses the TSQ/Haterade as "WIFOM", which i don't really see how it is. it felt like he was commenting on it for the sake of commenting on it. finally, from what i remember of playing with him, he tends to be much more active and aggressive as town and i'm not seeing that in this game.

1. In which post did I call out Hatorade?
2. I didn't call the TSQ/Haterade argument WIFOM, I said my take on it was. In other words, if I stated my take on it, it would result in too much WIFOM that would muddle things up.
3. See Grimmmafia (not to be confused with Grimmafia). If I'm town, I have less of an active interest in the game and won't be very active unless either actively part of a conflict or if I smell a rat (like how I jumped when I thought a question was being answered that wasn't asked). If I'm scum, I've got more at stake trying to throw blame on others, so I'm more active. Give it time. I shouldn't be like this for long.

Back. Can someone please answer question #1 here? The 'clear hypocracy'? Where is that?

[Gorrad]

Wait...that's it? That's the big calling-out post? Gods above and below, I looked right over that. Are you saying I was wrong to ask him to say something with a point? I was at least /talking/, as opposed to such a worthless post when conversation was occuring.

[Gorrad]

And this hypocricy...makes me scummy somehow?

[Gorrad]

I too am LA due to the fact I work tonight, tomorrow, Friday, and Saturday...along with two art projects that desperately need working on because its due on Monday. I may need replacing...I dunno how much I can catch up with...I will try.

9 pages is not that much...you seem to be active everywhere else..why?

If she truly is active elsewhere, then this lurking is very disturbing to me.

FoS: crywolf20084

I'm KINDA active elsewhere. This takes thought unlike the other places i've been posting.

And out of the nine pages I've read like three...maybe.

Didn't notice this until ML brought it up.

Vote: CryWolf

. Thinking is protown.

[Gorrad]

I'unno, ML. Coincidence?

And yeah, I knew that vote would get me some suspicion. What were my alternatives? Not vote? I can understand reading and not posting, I do it all the time, but posting and not reading? That's, as they say, nucking futs. I'd rather post rarely and say precisely what I think than know nothing about the subject on which I'm posting. Those who've played with me should remember that- when replacing into a game I always, without fail, do a readthrough (with the exception being extremely long games, in which case I'll usually read the last day or two). CW's not even reading- I honestly can't comprehend why town would do that.

Scotmany, you and I have played in the same game several times now. Look back on some of those games. Can you honestly say I'm out of my pattern for early-game? At this point, I won't even use it as a town-tell for me. Just a null-tell. I "active-lurk", as y'all say, usually for the first day at the latest.

[Gorrad]

I concur. Frankly, that you would assume that your partner is mafia is quite suspicious to me. I'd peg you for mafia mason if anything.

I believe the claim of 'duck'.

And do NOT claim who your partner is. What you've already said is probably too much.

[Gorrad]

Alrighty. ready to play.

I don't rally have any FOSs right now, nd I'm not liable to do anything much yet.

So you have nothing to say?

....

speaking of which i noticed you seem to be more involved with the game now. finished your read yet?

Yeah. And i'm not stressing over life, atm either. So for this moment, i can be active.

Then why aren't you? At least read through the topic. You're top of the votecount, dude, try saying something.

[Gorrad]

EBWOP:

Alrighty. ready to play.

I don't rally have any FOSs right now, nd I'm not liable to do anything much yet.

So you have nothing to say?

....

speaking of which i noticed you seem to be more involved with the game now. finished your read yet?

Yeah. And i'm not stressing over life, atm either. So for this moment, i can be active.

Then why aren't you? At least read through the topic. You're top of the votecount, dude, try saying something.

You should do the exact same thing. Maybe you could provide something useful once in a while.

At least I've read the thread. I give info when I feel I have something to contribute. If I try to say something when I don't have anything to contribute, I end up either sounding really scummy or idiotic. Usually the latter.

[Gorrad]

Yeah, they pretty much got my question. Just because some power roles might not be frogs doesn't mean they all aren't.

[Gorrad]

Role /= Allignment. One of my favorite mantras. I have no doubt that the duck claim was honest, but why should that reflect allignment? It boils down to a bunch of WIFOM.

[Gorrad]

It's a slight increase in scum hitting a power role vs getting potentially useful information, that being the partner's opinion of cry with respect to night talk.

It's friggin' Day 1. How much useful information do you think he has?

QFT.

[Gorrad]

Wow, I did NOT realise that my vote was still on CW.

Unvote

I'm giving the benefit of the doubt, here. I haven't liked CW's play so far, and I'm not opposed to the idea of a scum duck mason, but it's out there enough that I'll not lynch D1.

To whomever is partnered with CW: If your role is 'neighbor', or ANYTHING other than 'mason', please say so now. If it's 'mason', then do NOT say anything. If it's not mason, I'll likely lynch CW on the spot. If nothing is said, we can assume that it IS mason, and we don't out the partner.

[Gorrad]

Gorrad, who do you think we should kill? With TSQ gone, you're the person I trust the most right now. Even though you have been eerily low-key all day phase.

I'm leaning towards Karne: the 50-50 thing really bothered me, as did his outright dismissal of my meta. I'm going to do a full readthrough tonight and get back with a definite answer.

[Gorrad]

Thoughts:

mikeburnfire/Farside22 - Generally good, intelligent posts. Likely town.
dahill1 - Generally short posts, some distinctly lacking in content. Better than CW or Scot.
curiouskarmadog - I'd bet on town. Really good posts, and I'm getting good vides from him.
Raging Rabbit - Has made 10 posts all game.

FoS: RR

.
kloud1516 - Like CKD.
crywolf20084 - Lurking, short posts. Questionable claim. REALLY don't like 208. Several empty posts saying that he can provide content, but that don't provide content. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, at least D1.
Haterade/Archon - Haterade I liked. Archon's done nothing but vote someone for lurking while lurking himself.
scotmany12 - Tunnelvisioned on me, which I obviously don't like. Not unfounded, though. Also lurking. Last person I played with who played like Scot is now was scum. Doesn't mean Scot is, but still suspicious.
MacavityLock - Seems to be bringing up some pretty good points. Likely town.
Citizen Karne - As mentioned, do NOT like the 50-50 thing, nor the meta dismissal. Pretty good odds of being scum.
Thestatusquo - I don't like him. I don't think that has a big effect on allignment, though. And he's been gone for weeks.

Karne or Scot I would be happy lynching, but my Scot suspicion has a good measure of OMGUS in it.

Vote: Citizen Karne

[Gorrad]

Holy cow, we got a comprehensive post out of Gorrad!

Well, yeah. It's been 14 pages, I actually have material.

[Gorrad]

Well...Okay when i see the word "neighbor" that usually freaks me out, which is what my Role PM specifically says I am.

Unvote, Vote: Crywolf

[Gorrad]

A no lynch stops the town from using the one power it's nigh-garunteed to have against the scum.

[Gorrad]

Geez, big swap from

Gorrad, who do you think we should kill? With TSQ gone, you're the person I trust the most right now. Even though you have been eerily low-key all day phase.

Neighbors means, in my experience, that at LEAST one member of the pair is scum. I've yet to see a neighbor pair that didn't have at least one scum member. Masons can have scum members too, but for neighbors it's pretty much garunteed. I'd believe a Mason claim, give it the benefit of the doubt in the face of scummy behavior, etc. But the fact that he claimed neighbor means that in my mind he's a scummy member of a duo that contains at least one scum.

That aside, no offense taken. 'Tis just a game.

[Gorrad]

And there was much rejoycing.

Yaaaaaaaay.

[Gorrad]

We don't. I know from my own experience that I have yet to see a neighbor pair without at least one anti-town. If anyone HAS seen such a pair, I'd like them to link it ASAP. It's like someone claiming vig/janitor. It's possible, sure, but unlikely and unprecedented.

[Gorrad]

The game is ongoing. Can't link. Quick scan of my threads should find it, though.

Neighbor isn't just flavor. According to the wiki, neighbor refers to any mason pair which doesn't know allignments. The fact is, I've only seen the phrase neighbor actually used instead of mason when at least one of the two were not town.

[Gorrad]

A search of the site for the word 'neighbor' reveals the following games with and without an anti-town in a neighbor group:

With:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... r&&start=0

Without:

Exceptions:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... r&&start=0
-This game had a town neighbor who could pick one person a night to talk to.

No games on the site with neighbor groups, to my knowledge, have been omitted. Keep in mind that for those games that did not have their roles all on the front page, they can be found in the endgame section. Ongoing games have been omitted.

And this is why I didn't link any.

[Gorrad]

Mod: Is that vote count correct in the number of votes on CW?

More than one. Again, ongoings. The conclusions I draw are my opinions. I'm not asking you to share them. I don't find it ridiculous. You do? Great. Feel free to not agree with me. I shared my data and my reasoning, and people are allowed to draw different conclusions.

[Gorrad]

Oh, and @ML: Because the partner won't claim if they're scum...

OH! CW to claim their partner. Wow, didn't think of that.

CW: Partner claim, please

.

[Gorrad]

...See 392.

[Gorrad]

Oh, and @ML: Because the partner won't claim if they're scum...

OH! CW to claim their partner. Wow, didn't think of that.

CW: Partner claim, please

.

This doesn't explain why you were willing to lynch Cay without forcing either her or her partner to claim.

If Cry's town, then the scum won't claim. If Cry's scum, the other's either scum, and won't claim, or town, and should claim without pressure. I didn't think to ask Cry to claim her partner. When my active game is done, I'll give an explanation of why.

[Gorrad]

Cry's mason buddy would have a higher odds of being scum, yes, but the possibility of two scum neighbors from different teams is a possibility too.

[Gorrad]

Cry's mason buddy would have a higher odds of being scum, yes, but the possibility of two scum neighbors from different teams is a possibility too.

Why would I?

Because you had not claimed. However, you have now, so that point's moot. Also, are you also a duck?

DI, you're at L-2. I'd hurry up if I was you.

[Gorrad]

Cry's mason buddy would have a higher odds of being scum, yes, but the possibility of two scum neighbors from different teams is a possibility too.

Why would I?

Because you had not claimed. However, you have now, so that point's moot. Also, are you also a duck?

DI, you're at L-2. I'd hurry up if I was you.

We are not lynching izzy because of your stupid theory.

You're not. I am. And it's hardly based only on the fact that she's a neighbor. I was hard-pressed to give benefit of the doubt even when the claim was still mason.

[Gorrad]

If he did not claim at all, he would be scum. I didn't think he'd need pressure to do so, but he did. The fact that he did doesn't make him scum. 410-411 make him scum.

Unvote, Vote: Archon

.

Also, I shall say once more for Karne's sake, my argument against CW is NOT based on her role name. I was voting/suspecting her long before that. The only reason I was giving her the benefit of the doubt was that she had claimed mason. What the role name 'neighbor' did was stop me from giving her that benefit. That's all.

[Gorrad]

410 shows signs of you lying for no one's benefit but to preserve your own hide and contians more WIFOM than Watchmen does man-ass. 411 shows you haven't been paying attention to your own partner. 417 puts you as a Toad in Frogs Mafia.

[Gorrad]

410 shows signs of you lying for no one's benefit but to preserve your own hide and contians more WIFOM than Watchmen does man-ass. 411 shows you haven't been paying attention to your own partner. 417 puts you as a Toad in Frogs Mafia.

well, exuse me for noticing that her avatar was a duck. I thought that everytime somone called her a duck, it was a joke.

alos, you completley re-stated what you just said in the last post of yours. Tell me what exactly about it is scummy. me using your idea, then trying to cover my butt when people attack me?

I....you...it's been one of the biggest points brought against her! Geez.

No. You're #3 answer is scummy because you're admitting that you lied to cover up lurking. #7, #9, and the general thought are complete WIFOM. Plus, you've claimed Toad, a species notable for not being a Frog.

Dunno about the rest of y'all town, but Toads seem like a pretty good candidate for the mafia to me.

[Gorrad]

And what are you, then?

You want me to claim? My flavor's species is frog, though whether I'm a regular frog or some subspecies I won't say. The vanillas are all frogs, as you can see in the first post. This is because it's Frogs Mafia.

[Gorrad]

Correct me if I'm wrong Gorrad, but you said that Archon and Crywolf being neighbors made them lose the benefit of the doubt, right? If that's the case, then there is no basis for that loss besides a simple meta.

That is correct.

Watch Scotmany tomorrow. Trying to move the lynch to me with so little time would be impossible and possibly make us NL.

I'll let Deadline do its work.

[Gorrad]

That is a remarkably good picture of a duck.

Vote: Crywolf

[Gorrad]

Mod needs to update the page one list. Sorry, Izzy, I forgot you replaced.

Vote: DizzyIzzy

.

1. How do you know flavor is internally consistant if you're protown?
2. You are NOT, I believe, confirmed duck. Neighbor, aye, but not duck.
3. You're a member of a neighbor pair, the dead member being town.
4. I have an innate suspicion of anyone who claims themselves to be confirmed on such shallow evidence.

These are not all points meant for you to address. They're simply points against you, in addition to points against CW D1, which make you totally vote-worthy.

[Gorrad]

Vote: Gorrad

'Nuff said.

Hold on, I'm getting a call on my invisible cell phone!

Uh huh. You say you're calling from where? A mile away? And you saw that coming! Wow!


Way to tunnelvision, Yos.

[Gorrad]

Vote: Gorrad

'Nuff said.

Hold on, I'm getting a call on my invisible cell phone!

Uh huh. You say you're calling from where? A mile away? And you saw that coming! Wow!


Way to tunnelvision, Yos.

...and at 1:20 AM, aparently Yos means Scot.

[Gorrad]

Mod needs to update the page one list. Sorry, Izzy, I forgot you replaced.

Vote: DizzyIzzy

.

1. How do you know flavor is internally consistant if you're protown?
2. You are NOT, I believe, confirmed duck. Neighbor, aye, but not duck.
3. You're a member of a neighbor pair, the dead member being town.
4. I have an innate suspicion of anyone who claims themselves to be confirmed on such shallow evidence.

These are not all points meant for you to address. They're simply points against you, in addition to points against CW D1, which make you totally vote-worthy.

I can agree to all of these reasons except for, and especially, the third one. Archon flipping town means NOTHING in relation to Dizzy's role whatsoever. If we followed a meta every time we played mafia, then we would be nowhere (and the game wouldn't be fun anyways).

Anyways I'll probably decide where to put my vote tomorrow, just got back from vacation

3/4's not bad.

[Gorrad]

Just letting everyone know that this week has been really busy for me. I'll get something done over the weekend.

AKA Scotmany will post another one-liner stating that I'm scum in a day or two.

[Gorrad]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

[Gorrad]

Sorry, y'all, I haven't meant to lurk. It just kinda happened.

Here's the skinny: I'm still all in favor of an Izzy lynch, and I still think MBF is pretty protown. The reason I haven't been commenting on those points made against him is because there is, to an extent, some truth to them and I wanted to see his responses.

They're what I'd expect from him as town. Admitting to tunnelvision and playing by gut, for a player of MBF's caliber...frankly, as scum, I'd expect him to play better. For me, at least, disinterest is a town-tell. Scum have a harder job, they have more at stake in the day phase, so they post more. Power-roles have this too to an extent. When I'm a vanilla townie, I'm usually significantly less into a game than when I'm scum, and I tend to apply that to others as well.

[Gorrad]

Well applying your own meta to others obviously won't work
For example, I actually prefer being vanilla rather than scum

Nonetheless, it's my bias.

[Gorrad]

I've given my input on the situation. You're capable of fighting your own battles.

[Gorrad]

MBF's claimed vanilla.

Good post, BTW, dude. This guy's town, y'all. Dizzy and Scot are probably scum, so I won't ask them to unvote, but the rest of y'all should.

[Gorrad]

They're what I'd expect from him as town. Admitting to tunnelvision and playing by gut, for a player of MBF's caliber...frankly, as scum, I'd expect him to play better. For me, at least, disinterest is a town-tell. Scum have a harder job, they have more at stake in the day phase, so they post more. Power-roles have this too to an extent. When I'm a vanilla townie, I'm usually significantly less into a game than when I'm scum, and I tend to apply that to others as well.

Gorrad won so friggin hard just now. Seriously. He hit the nail right on the head. I'm a townie.

MBF has the good post.

[Gorrad]

V/LA from Friday evening until Monday evening. I'll try my best to post when I can.

[Gorrad]

Posting to say that I have read since my last post and am checking in while V/LA. I see no cause for comment; Scot's still tunnelvisioning, Izzy seems to be lurking, and I'm happy with my vote.

[Gorrad]

Thought process:

It's six to lynch.

Scum could lynch MBF at any time with no questions asked.

They are not.

Therefore, either MBF is scum, or all the scum are on his wagon.

I'm pretty sure MBF is town.

Confirm Vote: DizzyIzzy

. I'd also dig a Karne lynch tomorrow.

[Gorrad]

lynch order preference at the moment:
MBF
Izzy (although it is slightly rising, will explain later)\
Gorrad

Are MBF and I both bussing one partner and not bussing the other, then?

[Gorrad]

lynch order preference at the moment:
MBF
Izzy (although it is slightly rising, will explain later)\
Gorrad

Are MBF and I both bussing one partner and not bussing the other, then?

Personally, I think so.

You're REALLY not Rosso.

[Gorrad]

Hmm? Sorry. Didn't see it.

Do I think Scot's scum? Right now, no. As I've said, all the scum are probably already on your wagon. Do I think he's scummy as sin? Yes. And if you flip scum I'm going to be on him like a fly on sugar. With his short posts and tunnelvision, it wouldn't be hard at all for him to be bussing you right now.

[Gorrad]

Izzy, that logic might be ok at times, but TSQ's asking for a specific here. What precisely of the case are you citing here to justify your statement?

[Gorrad]

If Izzy is the worst townie you've ever seen, you've led a lucky life. She's not a townie, of course, but I've seen town act MUCH worse.

See also: Weather Mafia's Blackberry.

[Gorrad]

Bah! Go scum! : D

[Gorrad]

Good game all! I wish I could have played more of it. Also, nice call Scot. I honestly thought I was cruising along pretty nicely until you up and off'd me.