Mini 754 - Frogs Mafia Game, Set and Match.

[Thestatusquo]

"While conceivably valid ARE inherently invalid"

Apologies for the typo.

[mikeburnfire]

Gorrad is scum for all the reasons I have said previously. he does not have the town's best interest at heart, and now that I think of it, he has been accusing my of tunneling, when he is also tunneling on dizzy. At least I have been commenting on the whole MBF thing, Gorrad has been doing nothing.

Gorrad was one of the first people to defend me. And really, you're both tunneling pretty bad.

Right now, I think MBF is more likely to be scum than town, but I am sure that Gorrad is scum. I still have doubts with MBF.

I really don't think there's a whole lot of evidence that suggests Gorradscum. I'll have to back and look at the reasons you gave for him being scum, but I think that there are better lynches today.

Therefore, either MBF is scum, or all the scum are on his wagon.

It would be stupid for all the scum to be on my wagon. Afterall, the town was barreling towards my lynch, so a

smart

scum would just let the town lynch their own.... Which is what you and TSQ were doing. Raging Rabbit isn't around to hammer me. He could very well be scum. I'd say best odds is that two scum are on my wagon now, one isn't.

The only person this wagon clears for me is scotman. He had the perfect opportunity to lynch me and had actually pushed for my lynch earlier. It would have been EASY for him to kill me and get away with it. Do you still think he's scum?

As for CKD, he's just another one of the people who say I'm scum and will do anything to justify it. His last post reads like this:
TSQ and MBF aren't suspicious of each other! They must be scum....
TSQ and MBF are expression suspicion of each other! They must be distancing...

[Citizen Karne]

In other words, TSQ is either too lazy to read my pbpa or too stubborn to treat it as a case. Probably both. :/

[Thestatusquo]

In other words, TSQ is either too lazy to read my pbpa or too stubborn to treat it as a case. Probably both. :/

No, my point was pretty much that it is unreasonable for you to expect other players in the game to spend hours of work just to fact check your opinion on one player.

Generally, if you think a player is scum, you try to convince other people that he is scum. I told you your case was unpersuasive to me, and why. Then I told you how you could very easily make a case that would be potentially persuasive to me. You have chosen to ignore this, and attack me personally instead. That's fine, I can deal with your attacks, but it doesn't seem like a particularly townie reaction, especially if you DO think mbf is scum.

*shrug*

[curiouskarmadog]

dont have time to really reply all that has been posted..and thought this was interesting

As for CKD, he's just another one of the people who say I'm scum and will do anything to justify it. His last post reads like this:
TSQ and MBF aren't suspicious of each other! They must be scum....

TSQ and MBF are expression suspicion of each other! They must be distancing...

in reference to the bolded...i wasnt trying to put forth this as part of my case (which was posted pages ago)

I am curious as to why you believe TSQ to be town. He was absent for a good portion of the game, and when he has been present he has been doing things like arguing why a pbpa is bad and asking everybody questions instead of giving his opinion on people (other than Izzy). Hell, getting his opinion about my bandwagon was like pulling teeth.

this is actually a good post....do I see a MBFscum making this comment about TSQscum at this point?....well, if he was trying to distance maybe....hmmmm

the fact that it was a good point made me think it out....did I say "well mbf is suspicious of TSQ, proof they are distancing"..no..I said MAYBE that post would make since if he was distancing...I wasnt presenting it as proof...I brought it up, because you DID make a good post that I think was worth repeating and I dont know if youscum would say that to tsqscum...but the fact you focus on that to discredit me without addressing my case (which was posted pages ago) or anything else in the that post should be quite telling to all..also where did I say that YOU are scum BECAUSE you and TSQ are not suspicious of each other...I never said anything remotely close to that....guess you are really feeling the heat if you are blatantly lying...you are scum for many other reasons, none of which has anything to do with your interaction (or lack of) with TSQ.

Also where did I say that TSQ expressed suspicion of you?..if you read my post...one of my biggest problems with TSQ is is lack of addressing you...or blowing smoke.

again, if MBF is not lynched today...I will be shocked.

[curiouskarmadog]

and for shits and giggles..CK can you post 3 reasons (and provide posts) for why you think MBF is scum...when he does that TSQ can you address it?

[scotmany12]

Gorrad is scum for all the reasons I have said previously. he does not have the town's best interest at heart, and now that I think of it, he has been accusing my of tunneling, when he is also tunneling on dizzy. At least I have been commenting on the whole MBF thing, Gorrad has been doing nothing.

Gorrad was one of the first people to defend me. And really, you're both tunneling pretty bad.

If you think I am tunneling, then so is basically everyone else in this game.

[Thestatusquo]

and for shits and giggles..CK can you post 3 reasons (and provide posts) for why you think MBF is scum...when he does that TSQ can you address it?

Absolutely. I've made this request of him like 3 times for this express purpose.

[Citizen Karne]

and for shits and giggles..CK can you post 3 reasons (and provide posts) for why you think MBF is scum...when he does that TSQ can you address it?

Absolutely. I've made this request of him like 3 times for this express purpose.

I've somehow missed all of them.

Well, here goes.

1. MBF isolation Posts 12 & 17, which contradict MBF isolation Posts 33 & 34.
These showcase his contradictory stance on flavor.

2. MBF isolation Post 43.
This showcases both his illogical stance on metas (he claims that scotmany's dismissal of Gorrad's self-meta contradicts his acceptance his meta of cry) and his odd stance on Gorrad (he admits that scotmany had a legitimate reason to vote Gorrad, yet recently has sworn that Gorrad is town).

3. MBF isolation Posts 24 & 27.
These showcase MBF's puzzling No-Lynch vote. Instead of making a case on the three people he feels are scum to try and garner some votes for them, he just votes no-lynch. Instead of justifying his vote, he makes a sarcastic remark. Also, notice his attachment to Gorrad, whom he said in post 43 was legitimately votable at that time. I don't know about you, but I would call someone legitimately votable

and

the most trustworthy in a game unless there was something else going on under the surface.

[dahill1]

lynch order preference at the moment:
MBF
Izzy (although it is slightly rising, will explain later)\
Gorrad

[mikeburnfire]

If you think I am tunneling, then so is basically everyone else in this game.

At least half the players are, but that doesn't make it a good thing.

lynch order preference at the moment:
MBF
Izzy (although it is slightly rising, will explain later)\

When? After I'm dead?

[curiouskarmadog]

sry maybe you missed the post.

please dont ignore.

dont have time to really reply all that has been posted..and thought this was interesting

As for CKD, he's just another one of the people who say I'm scum and will do anything to justify it. His last post reads like this:
TSQ and MBF aren't suspicious of each other! They must be scum....

TSQ and MBF are expression suspicion of each other! They must be distancing...

in reference to the bolded...i wasnt trying to put forth this as part of my case (which was posted pages ago)

I am curious as to why you believe TSQ to be town. He was absent for a good portion of the game, and when he has been present he has been doing things like arguing why a pbpa is bad and asking everybody questions instead of giving his opinion on people (other than Izzy). Hell, getting his opinion about my bandwagon was like pulling teeth.

this is actually a good post....do I see a MBFscum making this comment about TSQscum at this point?....well, if he was trying to distance maybe....hmmmm

the fact that it was a good point made me think it out....did I say "well mbf is suspicious of TSQ, proof they are distancing"..no..I said MAYBE that post would make since if he was distancing...I wasnt presenting it as proof...I brought it up, because you DID make a good post that I think was worth repeating and I dont know if youscum would say that to tsqscum...but the fact you focus on that to discredit me without addressing my case (which was posted pages ago) or anything else in the that post should be quite telling to all..also where did I say that YOU are scum BECAUSE you and TSQ are not suspicious of each other...I never said anything remotely close to that....guess you are really feeling the heat if you are blatantly lying...you are scum for many other reasons, none of which has anything to do with your interaction (or lack of) with TSQ.

Also where did I say that TSQ expressed suspicion of you?..if you read my post...one of my biggest problems with TSQ is is lack of addressing you...or blowing smoke.

again, if MBF is not lynched today...I will be shocked.

[Gorrad]

lynch order preference at the moment:
MBF
Izzy (although it is slightly rising, will explain later)\
Gorrad

Are MBF and I both bussing one partner and not bussing the other, then?

[Citizen Karne]

lynch order preference at the moment:
MBF
Izzy (although it is slightly rising, will explain later)\
Gorrad

Are MBF and I both bussing one partner and not bussing the other, then?

Personally, I think so.

[Raging Rabbit]

Real sorry for all the lurking, life got way busy. Will finally finish my reread today and hopefully start being helpful.

[Gorrad]

lynch order preference at the moment:
MBF
Izzy (although it is slightly rising, will explain later)\
Gorrad

Are MBF and I both bussing one partner and not bussing the other, then?

Personally, I think so.

You're REALLY not Rosso.

[Raging Rabbit]

Right, all caught up. I don't feel like typing a novel right now, so I'll try and make this brief.

Izzy is totally town, it continues to baffle how half the town wants to lynch her. The duck goes a strong way towards redeeming her in itself, and her behavior since replacing in I see as genuine town. Only thing standing against her is her predecessor's early game behavior, which was good for a page 4 wagon but isn't much to look at now.

Scot is probably scum. He's spent the entire game flying under the radar, in a way that feels very intentional to me. He's been emptily declaring that Gorrad's obvscum for ages now, with no real case to back him up. It should be obvious to Scot that this style of posting isn't gonna make anyone change their mind, so continually demanding Gorrad's head is a good way to give out the illusion of participating. Also that allowed him to dissmiss Izzy, who seemed like the obvious (mis)lynch at the point he called her wagon BS. He could easily be doing the same with MBF-town today.

However, MBF himself is pretty scummy, for all (well, most) of the reasons everyone's already mentioned. I'm sorta wavering on the hammer, though, since the strongest thing he has going for him is that I think that if he and Scot were buddies, the right move for Scot would clearly be to hammer - so my TSQ suspicion doesn't settle well with my Scot suspicion, which leads me to the conclusion that one of them's almost surely scum, but probably not both. While the data on both is about equally incriminating imo, Scot gives me terrible vibes while some of MBF's recent posting feels genuine (though it isn't past him to fake such posts). So the lynch today should be either of these two, but I prefer Scot - and even if I won't succeed in getting others to agree, I want more feedback on him before I start to consider a hammer.

Gorrad is also quite scummy, and I can easily see him as partners with either of the above. He's the most to blame for the ridiculous Izzy-hate (I'd like to stress out again how much the "but one neighbor HAS to be scum!" WIFOM sucks), and hasn't done a whole lot else other than subtly defend MBF and actively lurk.

Another guy I'm uncomfortable with is CKD, but I can't really tell why - other than that his behavior reminds me of his play as scum in 12 Angry Men, for some reason.

My reads on everyone else range from neutral to strong town, and I don't think it'd be to the town's benefit for me to go to further detail on this atm.


Phew.

[Raging Rabbit]

...so my

TSQ

suspicion doesn't settle well with my Scot suspicion...

What he meant to write was MBF.

[mikeburnfire]

Gorrad, answer my damn question. Do you still think scotman is scum?

CKD, I've already explained away everything in that "case" several times. If you can't be bothered to go read my posts, I can't be bothered to repeat myself. Although for this point:

I never said anything remotely close to that....guess you are really feeling the heat if you are blatantly lying...you are scum for many other reasons, none of which has anything to do with your interaction (or lack of) with TSQ.

1) I'm not lying. When you say things like "do I see a MBFscum making this comment about TSQscum at this point?", you are inferring that I am scum and that TSQ is scum.
2) If my interaction (or lack of) with TSQ is not one of the reasons you think I'm scum, then

stop mentioning it.

You're wasting my time.
3) I am feeling the heat because we're about to kill a townie, tomorrow we will be at lynch or lose, the town will be equally divided on whether to lynch Gorrad or Izzy, and the person who holds the deciding vote has lurked the entire game.

Oh, and of those 3 points that Karne wants TSQ to address, I'd like to say that I've already addressed the first one, the second one is stupid and ends with a lie, and the third one focuses on Day 1 screwing around instead of my Day 2 actual playing.

[mikeburnfire]

Nice of you to finally join us rabbit.

Izzy is totally town, it continues to baffle how half the town wants to lynch her. The duck goes a strong way towards redeeming her in itself, and her behavior since replacing in I see as genuine town. Only thing standing against her is her predecessor's early game behavior, which was good for a page 4 wagon but isn't much to look at now.

Meanwhile, I have no idea why people are so sure Izzy is town. I disagree that the duck thing is redeeming. The scum could very well have had knowledge about flavor being randomly assigned. But I can also understand the argument that if she were mafia she would have been better off fake claiming. But how can you say that her behavior is genuine town? Ever since his predecessor got Archon, her innocent neighbor-partner lynched, Izzy has done nothing except tunnelvision Gorrad and myself. That's ALL he's done. I'm looking at his posts right now and that's all there is. No comment on dahill1, Thestatusquo, curiouskarmadog, Raging Rabbit, scotmany12, MacavityLock, or Citizen Karne - just "Hey, why aren't you guys voting Gorrad/MBF?"

To everybody who has said that they think Izzy is town, I ask....

WHY?

Maybe the early cases against him were weak, but how does that clear him as town in any way?

Scot is probably scum. He's spent the entire game flying under the radar, in a way that feels very intentional to me.

You just described half the town just now.

He's been emptily declaring that Gorrad's obvscum for ages now, with no real case to back him up.

Tunnelvisioning is the "in" thing it seems.

Also that allowed him to dissmiss Izzy, who seemed like the obvious (mis)lynch at the point he called her wagon BS. He could easily be doing the same with MBF-town today.

I can see where you are coming from with this. However, I was RIGHT THERE on the chopping block, and he had the PERFECT OPPORTUNITY to kill me. He had already expressed suspicion of me, and if he didn't hammer me, there was no guarantee there would be enough votes to kill me. He's either town, or a scum who is sacrificing good play to create a WIFOM scenario. He's number one on my list of likely town. I mean, from your point of view we could still be scumbuddies, but a ScotScum-MBFtown scenario is very unlikely.

I'm sorta wavering on the hammer, though, since the strongest thing he has going for him

...is that I've been the most helpful player, addressing all points against me, and actively scumhunting through everybody instead of mindlessly focusing on one specific person?

...is that I think that if he and Scot were buddies, the right move for Scot would clearly be to hammer

That could go either way. One one hand, he's be making himself look good and ending the day quickly. One the other hand, he'd be killing his scummate and look suspicious for ending the day early.

(I'd like to stress out again how much the "but one neighbor HAS to be scum!" WIFOM sucks),

First of all, will people please look up the definition to WIFOM before they use it? Second of all, it's a valid point to consider, although very very circumstantial.

My reads on everyone else range from neutral to strong town, and I don't think it'd be to the town's benefit for me to go to further detail on this atm.

You've been gone for the entire day. Go into further detail.

[mikeburnfire]

I'd just like to take this opportunity to triple post and say that even though I'm very busy with real life right now, I plan on going through the game soon and posting a thorough case on everybody. I mean, I've got to pull the weight for all of you slackers who are lurking (Rabbit), arguing over semantics (TSQ), and tunnelvisioning (everybody else)

[Raging Rabbit]

Oh, and of those 3 points that Karne wants TSQ to address, I'd like to say that I've already addressed the first one, the second one is stupid and ends with a lie, and the third one focuses on Day 1 screwing around instead of my Day 2 actual playing.

Stop trying to scare the town into doing your bidding.

Nice of you to finally join us rabbit.

Yeah, you lose your wager from earlier.

Ever since his predecessor got Archon, her innocent neighbor-partner lynched, Izzy has done nothing except tunnelvision Gorrad and myself. That's ALL he's done

Her predecessor did not "get archon lynched", it was a joint effort led by your dear Gorrad. And from where I'm standing, there's nothing wrong with focusing on two main suspects (which she makes excellent points against), as long as you don't completely forget about everyone else (which I didn't really feel was the case). Also, at least she's not focusing exclusively on one guy like, say, Scot or Gorrad.

You just described half the town just now.

Not really. Most others aren't nearly as guilty of this, and nobody else feels that aware.

I can see where you are coming from with this. However, I was RIGHT THERE on the chopping block, and he had the PERFECT OPPORTUNITY to kill me. He had already expressed suspicion of me, and if he didn't hammer me, there was no guarantee there would be enough votes to kill me. He's either town, or a scum who is sacrificing good play to create a WIFOM scenario. He's number one on my list of likely town. I mean, from your point of view we could still be scumbuddies, but a ScotScum-MBFtown scenario is very unlikely.

You realize that you're still very probably gonna die today, right? What does scum-Scot has to lose from waiting to gain some townie points?

...is that I've been the most helpful player, addressing all points against me, and actively scumhunting through everybody instead of mindlessly focusing on one specific person?

Actually, it's that you're so humble.

That could go either way. One one hand, he's be making himself look good and ending the day quickly. One the other hand, he'd be killing his scummate and look suspicious for ending the day early.

Why aren't you applying the "he'd look scummy for ending the day early" argument to Scot-scum, you-town? It's much stronger if that's the case, since ending the day early is very excusable if it leads to lynching scum.

You've been gone for the entire day. Go into further detail.

How would that help, exactly? Other than give scum more info on the correct NK, that is?

[Gorrad]

Hmm? Sorry. Didn't see it.

Do I think Scot's scum? Right now, no. As I've said, all the scum are probably already on your wagon. Do I think he's scummy as sin? Yes. And if you flip scum I'm going to be on him like a fly on sugar. With his short posts and tunnelvision, it wouldn't be hard at all for him to be bussing you right now.

[scotmany12]

Scot is probably scum. He's spent the entire game flying under the radar, in a way that feels very intentional to me. He's been emptily declaring that Gorrad's obvscum for ages now, with no real case to back him up. It should be obvious to Scot that this style of posting isn't gonna make anyone change their mind, so continually demanding Gorrad's head is a good way to give out the illusion of participating. Also that allowed him to dissmiss Izzy, who seemed like the obvious (mis)lynch at the point he called her wagon BS. He could easily be doing the same with MBF-town today.

You seriously think I have emptily declared that Gorrad is scum? What the hell have you done in your reread? His whole thing on Cay/Izzy confirmed him to be scum. He says that one neighbor has to be scum, based on one game. Then instead of forcing the other neighbor to claim, he goes right after cay saying that the other neighbor would have already claimed at town. Note that Archon did not claim until later. So Gorrad basically said that the other neighbor was scum due to him not claiming, and yet he still votes cay/izzy.

Oh, and @ML: Because the partner won't claim if they're scum...

OH! CW to claim their partner. Wow, didn't think of that.

CW: Partner claim, please

.

This doesn't explain why you were willing to lynch Cay without forcing either her or her partner to claim.

If Cry's town, then the scum won't claim. If Cry's scum, the other's either scum, and won't claim, or town, and should claim without pressure. I didn't think to ask Cry to claim her partner. When my active game is done, I'll give an explanation of why.

Cry's mason buddy would have a higher odds of being scum, yes, but the possibility of two scum neighbors from different teams is a possibility too.

Why would I?

Because you had not claimed. However, you have now, so that point's moot. Also, are you also a duck?

DI, you're at L-2. I'd hurry up if I was you.

How is it a moot point? He still did not come out and claim without pressure. By your exact logic, how he did not claim right away, he would be scum. Yet you are voting for izzy.

Not to mention that he was actively lurking in the beginning and used his own meta, WIFOM, to defend himself. Also, he has convinced himself that I am tunneling on him, when if I am, he is doing the same thing to izzy.

Now, to defend against your ridiculous accusations. How exactly have I flown under the radar? If anyone has, it has been you. I haven't been lurking, I have been posting. Did you just miss the whole conversation I had with mbf? You truly think I haven't be participating? And I have explained why I think the izzy wagon to be bs. I really hate repeating myself.

[scotmany12]

Hmm? Sorry. Didn't see it.

Do I think Scot's scum? Right now, no. As I've said, all the scum are probably already on your wagon. Do I think he's scummy as sin? Yes. And if you flip scum I'm going to be on him like a fly on sugar. With his short posts and tunnelvision, it wouldn't be hard at all for him to be bussing you right now.

You have yet to say one adequate reason why I am scummy. Tunneling doesn't count, because if you think I am tunneling, then so are you, and so is basically everyone voting for MBF.