Mini 734 - GrimMafia - OVER

[Pablo Molinero]

Vote: Beyond_Birthday

What is this underscore nonsense?

[Pablo Molinero]

Last to vote? "Call it a day" based on random voting? Probably a joke? Bah!

Vote: springlullaby

[Pablo Molinero]

I'm still alive, I swear! Sorry fellas, I didn't have the joy of early-Day 1 on the first game I played. (I subbed in about 5-6 pages in when there was plenty of content to go off of.) So, I'm kind of rubbish at picking out this initial stuff when there's nothing solid. As expected, no bells in my head are going off and the random vote thing was just silly to begin with; hopefully it's out of everyone's systems. Skillit didn't seem malicious or anything and didn't press too hard. Meh. Also:

unvote

Going back, it's likely springlullaby just was fishing for reactions in that post that got her the first few votes. Ecto and PerArdua win points simply for being active (extra for the numbers to please my inner-statistician!). Although in my short time on the site, I've seen both ends of the activity spectrum in one game. That is: scum being THE most active player with his buddy being the least active. No real trends there from what I've experienced.

So... yeah, I'll hold on to my vote for a while and look at the more neutral peoples that haven't posted much (irony!) when I have time.

[Pablo Molinero]

Why, I think speedlynch on page two is the best that could happen to town, yes/no?

What is so detrimental about speedlynch?

Erm, because in later game, the more info for the town to look back on, the better? Maybe my first vote for you was right...

[Pablo Molinero]

How many players do you think are not aware of the fact that a reasonable amount of discussion per day is propitious to town?

Not many that are playing here, I would think. Sure, I'm sure some would go for it, but you'd be more likely to see that in the newbie forum.

How scummy would a speedlynch in a normal setup be?

I can't see speedlynch being very likely unless a scum is powering it. I guess there's the liklihood of a town strategy to unbalance the scum like ecto described, but I can't see enough townies going along with it for it to go through. The simple explanation seems to me that the speedlynch needs scum to push it along and over the brink.

How is scummy activity not good news?

...Ah. I see. If speedlynch ends up scummy, you have a ready-made batch of suspects on Day 2. Still, risky as hell since ya basically lose Day 1.

Are you truly unfamiliar with this line of argument?

Yep. Still learning.

[Pablo Molinero]

The rest of you shoot me in the head if this is going to keep up.

No, me first plz.

From the past few pages, I've also sorted Zer0ph34r into the 'mildly worthless' category, but as I've seen in other games, it’s not necessarily scum. I share his sentiments of "nothing to go off of" but you gotta accept that's just the nature of the game and you can't be too distracted by it on Day 1. Instead of complaining about it, do some prodding and see what happens.

Beyond_Birthday and PerArdua, you can't honestly think a scoring system or 'points' or any rubbish like that will actually work… do you?

zwet, surely you see the irony in arguing about posting useful content and then saying nothing else. Give us your thoughts on some people, or at least your top 3 to start with. Sipylus and nuwen, too.

btw: Zer0ph34r and spring are the ones that have caught my attention so far, what with being the centers of controversy so far. It seems like a scum's MO to stir things up.

[Pablo Molinero]

How the hell did you get through your first games here, then?

[Pablo Molinero]

In regards to Zero's play as a whole, for him to be scum, it just dosen't feel... right. Just out of general knowedge of play, it dosen't seem to me that scum would sit there and flounder over nothing, asking what we should go off of as more people slowly pile on the votes. Wouldn't mafia at least take a shot at someone to deflect suspision, no matter how misguided or insane? With Zero there's none of that and he's the only real target at this point. While his 'what do we do' questions are useless at best and anti-town at worst, that still dosen't mean he's scum. Hell, it may be the unpopular line of thinking right now, but put me in the camp that thinks Zero is town.

Now, looking at the people trying to pick him off: zwet has been posting one/two liners digging at Zero's play and not much else. Scum coasting on the anti-Zero wave? Possibly.

JereIC has hit a nerve with a few people, but looking at his most recent posts, something stood out: he says that using Zero as scum, "I think we'll be able to use that to implicate other players as scum" (or something like that). It's full of confidence, but if he's wrong, we'll have nothing to go off of to make said implications. Now, unless he's bussing on day one to set up lynches later (seems very unlikely), it dosen't seem to me that scum would make that assumption. ...did that make sense to anyone?

Beyond looks good so far and has hit looked quite pro town so far.

Zach... I dunno. Neutral at this point, will have to look deeper later.

Sipylus has 2 posts. Prodzorz?

Hell, let's get a vote out there:

Vote: zwetschenwasser

[Pablo Molinero]

Ugh. For zwet,

unvote

, you're solid, mang. Zero, you aren't helping your cause. Instead of "woe is me" at least try and give us a legit reason not to vote for you OR perhaps someone why someone is more scummy than you. Right now, you've only given us a OMGUS.

I have a legit question for people: how often have you, personally, seen mafia compared to townies utilize appeals to emotion in their final throes?

Mod:

What's our vote count at?

[Pablo Molinero]

...outstanding, Zero. Once again,

mod: votes?

You're getting damned close to getting my frustrated throw-my-hands-in-the-air vote.

I was seriously considering bitching about spring's question-question-question style, but it seems Nuwen beat me to the punch. Unfortunately, annoying =! scum. There's that contradictory statement of "I don't want to/wouldn't mind lynching Zero" that I paused at, but it with further thinking it doesn’t seem to be a big deal considering that's basically my line of thinking right now as well.

Anywho: Any kind of early bussing theory is kinda crap from my first-hand experience and logic; keep it simple, people, no way it happens this early in the game. I would bank on one or two of our scum pushing the wagon right now, although perhaps they jumped off seeing that it would stop short, so really we need to look at who was heading the charge at its peak. Feh. I'll get on that.

[Pablo Molinero]

Aye, it's needed.

[Pablo Molinero]

You're really calling zwet an active lurker? He's kept his posts short, but they have had significant content than these long fluff-posts flting around. Hell, he's been one of the main proponents of the Zero wagon.

[Pablo Molinero]

Zero: ?

see: spring, Nuwen, myself, and hero. Have you not been here?

Anywho, I'm having one helluva time figuring this one out. Just when I'm ready to throw more heat on him, zwet's doing a great job justifying himself, if nothing significant happens in a few days, I'm going to have to suck up my pride and vote Zero. I'm looking at some of the middle of the pack voters in the Zero wagon with a suspicious eye right now, though: JereIC, Wolfy, Zach, and Sipylus. JereIC has bounced around so damned much to garner my attention.

[Pablo Molinero]

...bitter, stupid mafia bussing fellow mafia? *off to the wiki*

[Pablo Molinero]

I'm done with this nonsense. I tried, I tried my damnedest to believe you were town, but even if we keep you alive do we want you making important decisions down the road?

Vote: Zero

[Pablo Molinero]

Astounding.

mod plz?

[Pablo Molinero]

When I read zwet's first declaration after the night, I thought, "This has to be a joke". But lo and behold: baffling seriousness. Was scum really trying to set this up that badly? I had suspicions on day 1, but he had answers. Now...

vote: zwetschenwasser

[Pablo Molinero]

That seems awfully specific. Sounds more like you're trying to sell us a story.

[Pablo Molinero]

Yeah, I'm wary to end a day so quickly, but zwet's bizarre behavior/confidence is awfully off-putting. His story seems too far of a long shot and reeks of scum creating a conspiracy. The vote stands.

[Pablo Molinero]

Let's start at the beginning: your elaborate declaration that Spring is scum due to the NK. Why did you just drop it all at once instead of discussing and building a stronger case? It seems all you have is overeager conjecture. The best defense is a good offense, so go on the offensive and give us something other than, "LOOK LOOK SCUM!" Quotes? Elaboration?

(I dunno what the rest of you want from him, but it's a start.)

[Pablo Molinero]

... is it really that hard to follow?

[Pablo Molinero]

Oh, modkills. *is here* *is astounded with this game*

[Pablo Molinero]

One word to sum up my play in this game: lazy.

Ain't proud of it, but with the mind-numbing combinations of zero and zwet on the first few days, that's what it boils down to. Obviously should take more initiative, and I will, but I'm not the only one guilty of this.

For now: 2AM=sleeps.

[Pablo Molinero]

All quotes from spring:

1. Your fact are false, I did vote JereIC.

Yeah, for a while anyways.

I am still up to lynch Zero, I however would prefer lynching JereIC for the reasons I have cited.

Unvote, vote Zero

Come on, hammer. I'm tired of this too.

Yeah, I wasn't the only one.

I feel that active lurking is not the correct term to describe Zero, as I do not detect deception from him. Of course this is wifom, especially since people have made know that he just may be too scummy to be scum, and his latest contribution is kinda playing into the expectations, but I'm going with it now

She seems to be up for a kill, no matter who it is at times, and like myself, ends up on the frustrated side of things and just wants to end things. While hypocritical on my part, I’m fully aware of what I’ve done wrong this game and have changed my style accordingly (go ahead and do some meta-ing if you’d like), and spring seems just as guilty and trying to cover her tracks.

I swear to god, you think I’m bullshitting, but I picked out the very same quote of…

2. I said very clearly why I thought Zero was crapshoot, I think he has an equal chance of being awkward scum and awkward town. I also think the best argument against him right now is to get rid of the distraction.

… before reading through today’s posts again. Still the point stands that killing town is terrible no matter what. I know, I know, but I’m going to fall behind the newbie-defense for my earlier actions. After my first newbie game, this was game #2 for me.

And if we want to look at the nightkill, aside from zwet’s inane ramblings (Jesus Christ, did I really side with him earlier in the game?!), Nuwen was a solid, logical player that voted for spring right at the beginning of day 2 (before zwet ruined everything) and ended up dead on night 2.

And to say something of playstyles in that “answer a question with a question” exchange she had going earlier that helped absolutely nothing and now this little hissy-fit with the mod on the state of the game. Speculation: Perhaps a partner is lurking that you don’t want modkilled? Also, day 2 was quite unspectacular for her on the scum-hunting side of things (and most of the town, really) in that she took the easy way out for zwet getting lynched without so much as a second thought. (See also: BB, Pablo, and Ecto). We still have a ways to go to salvage this game.

FoS: spring

Question to our town: based on the setup, how many do you suppose we have in the ways of mafia?

[Pablo Molinero]

The idea is that when half the town is guilty of some of the things I'm accused of (and it WAS bad play, I'm not denying it), tunneling in on one does little good, particularly when spring's transgressions are a bit less forgivable than mine. Why *just* the FoS? I wanted to see more current stuff on this line of thinking before I throw out my vote.

[Pablo Molinero]

Dammit, post eaten by a power outage.

It consisted mostly of this: awkward wording in that last post of mine, but the point of spring stands. While my play has been poor/scummy (and I'm not denying it, even) hers has done that and then some with her peculiar playstyle and inconsistencies in rallying for a lynch JereIC, then saying it doesn't matter so much to her who gets lynched from the two (expressing a desire to just get someone lynched, a dangerous proposition), to throwing up her hands at Zero, but then washing her hands of it on day 2 and coasting the rest of the way to zwet's lynch. "Half the town" is spring, myself, BB, and Ecto, as I said earlier.

[Pablo Molinero]

Lovely. Who hasn't been replaced at this point?

[Pablo Molinero]

Man, I'm tied to BB/Zach by Vi, Spring/Zach by BB, and Spring/BB by Zach as a buddy. Anyone see something wrong with this? In my experience, people agreeing is never, ever a good thing. Either epic bussing is happening (very unlikely at presumed LyLo), or ya'll are wrong. Think about it.

----

Well, for one, I've been moving from Dayton to Columbus to Cincinnati in the past week. (Like, moving, moving, not just driving to and from). Would it be better if I just popped in with a "sorry busy week, lol" and went away? As for when I'm not moving about the state, "Hiding" isn't really an apt word for my behavior, methinks, more frustration and apathy with all the fukkin' replacements and never really getting "into" the game, so I never established any momentum.

(Thanks for your 562, Vi, so I know who the hell is who and who was on the wagons)

As for your other question Setael question about Zach, I'm finding him scummy from both Vi's (high protown player sofar) arguments and his recent "I'd like a lynch, even if it's me" noble-bullshit attitude WHEN WE'RE AT LYLO. No logical town would say that seriously, so I'm highly suspecting that it's just an act.

Vote: zachrulez

Beyond's recent behavior does nothing to inspire confidence (how the hell am I potential buddies to these two, Vi??) in that Zach expresses his desire for a Pablo or BB lynch and BB is quite quickly on the Pablo train. Cause and effect.

[Pablo Molinero]

He thinks that town thinking together (along the same lines) is bad.

And how do you know that it is town "thinking together" instead of mafia stringing a couple of townies along? So YES, I want people to be stingy with their trust. I just finished a game where the town insisted on coming to a consensus at LyLo instead of thinking individually for themselves. Obviously, scum walked away with the easy win. And instead of twisting one point of mine, how bout you stop ignoring the others: what about Zach's recent "there has to be a lynch, I don't care even if it's me" and your sudden focus on me (eager to clear your name/divert focus?)

Setael, you talk about my alignment after the lynch. Does that mean you aren't aware of our presumed LyLo, or do you not think we are at LyLo?

[Pablo Molinero]

#27 Of course I haven't been posting; it's THIS GAME. And now everyone thinks I'm scum. This can't be right!

Hah, please. All that was, was an explanation. I know my play has been bad. Hell, it's been scummy the way I've lurked, but be it activity in real life, activity in other games, or simple lazy, I've not been able to get into the game. I don't expect it to get heat off me, just an explanation.

As for the "town" agreeing, I'm going to stick by my point. I would understand the suspicion against myself if it had gone FoS, but no vote, from my presumed scumbuddies, but that ain't happening. No deflection of focus, it's solely on me at this moment. (not "woe is me" just stating fact) Zach's unvote makes me pause in my opinion about him, since we're at presumed lylo.

Vi- Do you still think zach and B-B are scum as well?
Zach- What do you think of Setael's play after his initial case against me? Seems like he's content to sit back and let the machine he set up against me run its course instead of probing further. And can you explain your opinion that we HAVE to have a lynch today, even if it's you?

[Pablo Molinero]

Trust me, I know that a No Lynch is not an option, I'm not suggesting that, but in that you know you're town and we're assuming that we're going to lose if we lynch a townie. If we lynch you (if you're town) we lose, so the option at this point shouldn't even cross your brain. THAT's why I find some of your words earlier very off-putting.

[Pablo Molinero]

Pablo tried to throw suspicion on spring rather than defend himself

Basically. A good defense is a good offense. I’m not going to find scum by simply sitting back and defending myself. Particularly, because my first two days were pretty damn weak.

First of all, her.

Apologies. It always annoyed me when other people do this, and lo and behold I fail.

Second, is this you hiding a stab at me in a question to Zach?

Yeah, for the most part. About thirty minutes after writing that, I thought, “that’s fairly petty,” but what can ya do? I wanted to bring other people into the discussion to see if my feelings were legit or unfounded. If I ask you directly, of course I’m going to receive a refutation.

You weren't lurking. Instead you were trying to stay off the radar.

Heh, I was taking other people’s points and basically saying, “yeah, that sounds good.” Active lurking? Feh.

Pablo is still playing poorly.

Die in a fire. Some of my points against you and zach have simply been ignored and you’re now trying to slight my play since I called out your switch in behavior. Petty. And what's with the nice-nice to Vi and Setael? Are you trying to coax Setael back into pressuring for me after you think you 'scared' her off to track?

And Looker seems to be either trying realllllly too hard, or is just insane.

[Pablo Molinero]

So he's trying too hard or he's insane? What does that even mean? Do you think it's scummy to try too hard or is that something townies do? What about insane? Once again you're avoiding actually stating your suspicions. Why? Still lazy? Give us a solid opinion for once.

Really? I think my comment on Looker was pretty self explanatory looking at his random smileys, extended caps lock, and bizarre behavior. Typically something skittish scum do, but it could also be playstyle so I'm not going to condemn him yet. I have not made an extended look at Looker just yet. And 'insane' was a joke. Lighten up.

[Pablo Molinero]

LOL! O my F**KING GOD! Thank you for shedding some light upon my day and making my life more bearable.

But no, Setael, I am not and was not looking at votecounts in the stead of reading the whole thread. I was merely trying to urge a commitment out of those who had not committed, i.e., you, seeing as I view a vote as a commitment.

Lol, you are f**cking hilarious

Dear lord. As much as it pains me to admit it, I agree with Setael in this whole exchange, and looker's reactions are just *so* ridiculous and strained, I can't help but to think our scum in panicing. I know the difference between "stupid" and STUPID (I have played with Empking and millar and zwet before), and this is falling in the former category. It ain't sitting right with me. Find something legit. Defend yourself.

vote: looker

[Pablo Molinero]

You can do anything at Zombo.com.

The world is yours at Zombo.com.

Seems to me that B_B is overlooking a first naive, skittish player for another. Hypocritical and smacks of protecting someone. Your line of:

I have no talent for reading "newb scum" versus "newb town." So, if you care to point out things Looker has done that indicates scum anything (particularly something an amateur scum is more likely to do), be my guest.

really, really looks like you're playing the "indifferent" card to someone that shouldn't get that benefit. I do agree that Archon's vote against me was very opportunistic and very awful, and I'm currently sitting on the fence, and Arch is digging himself deeper, but my scepticism is preventing me from voting alongside B_B or zach when things like this are said:

Archon is the lynch, open your eyes people.

I would also urge anyone on the looker wagon that is town, to unvote in light of 672.

You need to be lynched... now.

How many to lynch? 5? Barring busing we need to get this *exactly* right if we're assuming 3 scum.

[Pablo Molinero]

Who have I protected?

Looker, with that exact attitude that you reiterated. I find it odd that you're going after Arch when he's proven to be just about as useful and scummy in the terms of play as Looker (who got the "meh" treatment). If you've given up on newbscum ideas, what stands out about Arch other than his L-1 vote for me?

[Pablo Molinero]

Give me reasons that you're voting for Arch that are NOT seen in Looker (who showed off his stupid first and got your "I have no talent for reading "newb scum" versus "newb town." " reaction). Use bullet points if you want to make it simple. Hell, something plz.

[Pablo Molinero]

Lurking and throwing out a L-1 vote with little reasoning? Yeah, sounds about right.

[Pablo Molinero]

Scum can make cases on each other for some wonderful WIFOM when they flip scum. Plus, trying to distract from his own case to throw it onto a scumbuddy is a wonderful way to seem town later.

You're giving scum-me far too much credit, why not the most simple answer of just one of us being scum? I have not seen a whole lot of strategic bussing in my time. We're playing by probabilities here: what is most likely to happen, since we can't be 100% sure of anything. You got unfounded speculation in your answer and that's it.

[Pablo Molinero]

At home for the holidy, so this is short: I've been saying B-B's different treatment of Looker/Arch for a while now, Vi, it's just now that it's been noticed? I don't like the idea of your "Carousel of Death" because it seems like fishing for a kill, any kill, that the town will follow along with. However, I can't exactly begrudge you for doing it to your top 3 suspects since we're assuming there are 3 scum. I'm going to hold off on my vote right now, to see what our favorite punching bags in Looker and Arch say.

[Pablo Molinero]

Yeah, the caps "I'M TOWN" was not a good sign, and Looker's subsequent reaction of FoSing Arch and Vi just furthered the hole you're in. I'm not a huge fan of making pairs out of this situation unless they're uber-obvious, because they can quickly make a mess of the situation and are rarely exactly right. We still haven't nailed scum yet, so potential pairs are mere speculation.

I'm close to voting B-B, but Setael and to a lesser extent Arch have been pretty silent. Where do you guys stand?

[Pablo Molinero]

I'm willing to cut B-B a little slack in his recent attitude, but not a whole lot. If you're town, bleedin' defend yourself!

arch

Okay, there has to be a problem with that. SOMEONE HAS to be voting for me, what with the constant shifty-eyed looks and the context that my name is constantly used in.

Anyone else find this really bizarre? I'm not sure scummy is the right word, but it's odd as hell to attract attention to yourself like this.

Looker's blatant statement of

no it just says that i'm town. sorry for the misunderstanding

and his recent lack of activity keeps my vote on him for now. I don't care about your lies and silence sure doesn't help you. Oh, I'm waiting for Setael to resurface, too.

[Pablo Molinero]

And if B_B's not, we lose. You're pushing awfully hard for this kill now and your blatant, over-the-top antics in this last page outright calling for votes has shaken my confidence a wee bit. Seeing the end in sight? In fact, in the way that Vi's run the game since joining, why has no one put any heat on Vi, like, ever? I'm going to go back and take a look later.

(I know I'm going to have to commit to something eventually, but I want to exhaust ALL options first)

[Pablo Molinero]

If B_B flips scum, Looker gets autolynched. What's keeping you from switching?

Isn't the same true on my side? How 'bout YOU switch?

I'm sorry, I missed the part where Pablo tells us who he thinks the scum are.

A) I've said that looking at potential-pairs for the most part muddles things and makes for an easier time lynching someone innocent, so I'm only looking for one person right now.

B) Look where my bleedin' vote is and my last few posts. Could I think he is scum? Surely not! Logic is hard. Looker has clammed up and stopped digging his idiot-hole as soon as the heat was on B-B. No diversionary tactics from his supposed buddy, and spells "flying under the radar" to a T.

For the most part, B-B's recent reaction, of resignation, is disturbing, because I've seen it happen all too many times. Peticularly when a driving force is about to mow over a townie.

[Pablo Molinero]

Hrm. Things are not looking so hot for you, Beyond. Time to reread.

[Pablo Molinero]

Alright, I may get flamed to death for this, but hear me out. Would it be beneficial for us to no-lynch today? Seeing as we would be down to 5-LyLo instead of 6-LyLo, it would cut prospective suspects down by one and require 3 townies to agree instead of 4.

[Pablo Molinero]

What the hell? Well, at least there is the advantage of here not allowing the scum to quickhammer if you're wrong.

[Pablo Molinero]

B-B

A HOWL! ONE! SINGULAR! Two mafia teams=2 people each, right? Unless its a sk lover with a town aligned lover or something... So, given this line of thought, what do you think?

Please tell me this is sarcasm. The stretch is laughable and any talk about multi-scum groups or anything like that is too far out of the realm of possibility at this point. If there were more than 1 anti-town group, how have we not had 2 NKs ever? I'm betting on the standard 3-scum team that just happens to go with the "werewolf" theme the game sometimes has. Your recent posts at the colors, mod text, and now this quoted statement, smacks of desperation. Your plea to emotion at the end of last day in the

And then the other possibility is Looker is scum. Which, while I hope is true, I realize would result in town loss because then I would most likely be lynched. I suppose I conclude that town can't win from my perspective.

Fuck, I have to add my first town loss...damn...(And the mafia loss hit me pretty hard to...>.<)

If it's *that* bad, why the hell would you say that instead of going out and trying to prevent that first town-loss?

Vote: ...

God dammit, I can't do it just yet.

I will come back to this tomorrow, consider the logic, and I'll find the progression.

Alright, it's 'tomorrow'. You better have something good.

I pause due to Arch latching onto Zach in a very, very bizarre manner and Zach trying to practically beat him off with a stick, but B-B has done nothing redeeming recently and my reread just solidified my position. However, at presumed LyLo, (still), we have to tread carefully and Arch's (and by extention, Zach's) behavior worry me.

Arch

Yes, why do you think that we can't be scum?

Cocky/buddying much?

Also, I say again since I was blatantly ignored the first time: if we have 6 people left, 4 to lynch, shouldn't a "no lynch" be a viable option? There's no one totally clean, 3 townies have to agree instead of 4, and we eliminate one suspect from the pool. We'd be in basically the same situation of lynch-correctly-or-lose but with less players to muddy the waters. Recent development make me pause at voting and I think a no lynch could be a decent move.

I wanna see how hascow and setael weigh in.

[Pablo Molinero]

My reasons stand, B-B has not shown up for any further defense. I think the 3-scum is standard for a game this big, so I fail to see why you would immediately leap to the 2-scum team idea.

vote: Beyond Birthday

[Pablo Molinero]

Because he's done nothing so far but throw out far fetched theories to (?) save himself, no scuhunting or deflection of attention. I'm not going to tell him what to do, but it's uncharacteristic to a player that seemed quite competent earlier. He defended looker on a double standard (voting for you instead) and pleaded to emotion near the end of yesterday.

[Pablo Molinero]

The two who have voted both seem to just be reacting to zach's attacks.

Zach has nothing to do with my opinion; it's mostly based on B-B's actions yesterday and his heavy connection to looker. That said, I should put my money where my mouth is instead of just talking about it; I think the best townie play right now is:

unvote, vote: No Lynch

[Pablo Molinero]

Most Scummy
--
B_B - He gained some time with his last post, but the point stands, that yesterday he was heavily linked to looker AND made that godawful appeal to emotion at the very end of the day. His bizarre look at muti-scum teams/scum color is completely illogical and seems like caught scum scrambling to latch on to something to save his skin.
Arch - His behavior has been spectacularly bad at points, particularly using the same damn "trying to get discussion going" excuse that looker used. Scum-looker! His recent lovefest of Zach for a very weak/bizarre reason is also disturbing.
Zach - Him bussing looker is not out of the question to ensure a win later, but his cautious style so far has earned him points. However he's in the same "not hammering looker" boat that B-B is in. More guilty by association. My first priority to read in ISO.
Setael - I... dunno. Not terribly scummy, but misinterpreted my attack against B-B as Zach's doing (lulz). I'll have to reread in ISO as well.
has - Has been a little too inactive at this point near the end for my liking, but has shared on my looker and B-B suspicions, so I can't fault him for that.
--
Least Scummy

Alright, Zach in ISO, then a reread of looker's interactions, then Setael.

A question to pose to the town that *just* came to me (and rightly annoys the fuck out of me that I thoguht of this, making our lives harder): After finishing another game, there were only 2 mafia in a 12 person game, since the town only had a doc. We seem rather underpowered as a town, since everyone that have died so far has been vanilla, so... *sigh*... is there a possibility there is actually only 2 scum?

[Pablo Molinero]

Nevermind with the scum count that was nagging at my mind. It wouldn't matter. The best play would still be to No Lynch today.

[Pablo Molinero]

Well, actually, it it were a 2 man scum team from the start, and yellow=mafia, then we should lynch today.

Wrong. Let's kill 2 birds with one stone, between this and arch's question, and make this crystal clear.

---------------------
IF there were 3 (now 2) scum:

-Lynch today. We are at 6-person LyLo. All 4 townies have to agree or bussing has to happen. If we mislynch, scum 2 and townies 2 = scum win.
OR
-No lynch today. NK eliminates a suspect, gains info. Puts us in 5-person LyLo tomorrow, 3 townies have to agree.

Either way we have 1 lynch to get it right.

---------------------
IF there were 2 (now 1) scum:

-Lynch today. 4 of the 5 townies have to agree. If we mislynch, tomorrow we will be at 4 people and 3 of 3 townies have to agree.
OR
-No lynch today. There is a NK. Tomorrow we are at 5 people and 3 of 4 townies have to agree. If we mislynch, we will be at 3 people and 2 of 2 townies have to agree.

Either way we have 2 lynches to get it right.
---------------------

We have the same amount of attempts (between Lynch or No Lynch) in either situation. The suspect pool gets smaller in both cases of No Lynch, though, and provides us with more info.

[Pablo Molinero]

As time passes, I'm starting to agre more and more with Setael about Has. Come out, come out, and play.

[Pablo Molinero]

This feels a bit off to me, like you're trying to look town by promoting discussion.

Too-townie fallacy?

[Pablo Molinero]

See, I'm becoming less and less keen on the whole no-lynch scenario now that it's being established that myself (and Seteal?) are looking fairly pro-town. I'm not so sure if either of those NKs would help anyone.

unvote

[Pablo Molinero]

FoS

Fair enough. Very dumb thing for town to say.

I know my stance on a No Lynch has flipped, but that's because it's brought about information that I didn't think of at first. To be honest, I have been less and less sold on B-B lynch for today, considering he has pointed out Vi's original point of No Lynching being useless when we actually have suspects. Which we do in Arch, B-B, and Zach. Correct me if I'm wrong.

However, Zach, Arch, and Saetel have entertained the idea, perhaps as a way to appease the town, make nice-nice for the day, and kill a protown player in the night. Obviously not the greatest argument I've got, but I'm always paranoid of those who don't challenge my logic (because upon further thought, No Lynch seems fairly faulty).

I think I need to do a complete looker re-read and see what I can see. In the one game that I've been responsible for a town win on this site, I did it pretty much solely with a lynched-scum reread.

[Pablo Molinero]

FoS

Fair enough. Very dumb thing for town to say.

I know my stance on a No Lynch has flipped, but that's because it's brought about information that I didn't think of at first. To be honest, I have been less and less sold on B-B lynch for today, considering he has pointed out Vi's original point of No Lynching being useless when we actually have suspects. Which we do in Arch, B-B, and Zach. Correct me if I'm wrong.

However, Zach, Arch, and Saetel have entertained the idea, perhaps as a way to appease the town, make nice-nice for the day, and kill a protown player in the night. Obviously not the greatest argument I've got, but I'm always paranoid of those who don't challenge my logic (because upon further thought, No Lynch seems fairly faulty).

I think I need to do a complete looker re-read and see what I can see. In the one game that I've been responsible for a town win on this site, I did it pretty much solely with a lynched-scum reread.

Oh, re-read me too! I want to know what you think.

1) I really don't like this
2) The point of the reread is that we KNOW looker's alignment, we do not know yours.

[Pablo Molinero]

@Pablo - can you elaborate on the no lynch change of mind? I feel that even if we have suspects (which I certainly do) it is still in the town's best interest to increase our chances of successfully lynching scum by narrowing down our options.

Real quick as I'm in class: The whole point is that we have suspects. If we no lynch, it makes for an easy NK for scum in kiling someone not under the microscope and while our options are *technically* lowered, our true options (the current suspects) have not gone down. Also, it makes scum easier to quickhammer FTW.

[Pablo Molinero]

Looker reread will come later tonight. Sorry it took so long folks, life happened, you know how it goes.

[Pablo Molinero]

Here it is, all quotes are from looker. It's a bit of a stream-of-consciousness thing so some things are corrected or elaborated later. Not as in depth as I would have liked since Looker is frustrating as hell to read.

--------------

hmm...odd...i was kind of feeling a setael n zach, but i guess that's the benefit of other opinions. i'll go back and do some more reading.

Setael and zach are the first people he finger for suspicion. Do we think looker is the type to throw out misdirection in the very beginning?

Nice catch. But anyway, still reading and still feeling Setael more than Spring. Coming with some substance later on, until then

vote: Setael

Remember kids. Arch=Spring.

I'm wanting to agree with this post and place a vote on you; however, I doubt it's more because I think you're scum than simply my willingness for something to happen. I can understand how one could easily get bored, but I don't understand whether this would count as a FOS Spring. Either way, I'm trying

To spring (Arch). I am of the opinion that FoS’s hold little to no weight, so the ol’ FoS your partner and vote someone else could be in full effect. Speculation, sure, let’s see how this develops.

Vi - Nice. I don't know, though, I think it was a pressure vote; I'll go back and see. Until then, unvote.

And the retraction of his vote.

i remember. just trying to put everyone on the map. wouldn't want anyone to get too comfortable.

vote: hasdqfas

Hmmm, he seems to like to put his vote on people in the name of ‘pressure’ and keeping them off balance.

Well excuse me! Exactly what answer were you looking for, Vi? A scummy one...? unvote

And the next post another quick retraction. He’s bouncing from place to place to see what will stick. I think has and Setael are looking good because of this.

Vi threw me off.

If I could find your case, which I'm sure is pretty nice, I'd post my opinion; however, I've yet to locate said case.

I think Zachrulez is...::sigh::...I'll have to isolate him, Setael... (And here I was trying not to do any work...)

We never got that promised read on Zach. Nice sketchy noncommittal post he was good at.

Yes! Tell me what you think! I've been reading you and I think you're really cool, but you're really smart, which makes me think you're scum that really knows what you're doing. My scum readings really don't mount up to much in my opinion because I always sum up the person's playstyle and personality instead of what they've actually posted and the probability of the mod giving them a certain role.

In short, it's hard.

Wait, wait, no, no it's not...! (another jokey-joke, sorry folks)

If I had to give you a number, I'd say you'd have a 36.333...% chance of being scum; however, I don't have to give you a number so I'll just say I think you're town right now. BUT I DON'T KNOW! Maybe you're just a nice friggin guy...! [/quote

To Zach. Ah, here is where things get interesting. A very strange “You’re cool! But scum! But I’m unreliable when reading! But I don’t know! But you’re a “nice friggin guy”!” Very, very odd.

Ah crap. I hate it when people over-analyze things because it makes it harder for predominantly simple people like myself.

@Pablo, wait, no, @ Town: PABLO IS SCUM! LYNCH HIM! DO NOT BE DISTRACTED BY THE FACT THAT I AM TALKING TO SOMEONE! CONTINUE ON WITH YOUR LIVES!

You don't make sense...whoa, is this a belated OMGUS vote...?

And then the panic, under the guise of being a “simple” player.

I don't think you're scum because I haven't read anything to imply such - meaning, I've read nothing where you've done or said anything that could appear to be scum-motivated if you understand the term. As far as Setael, I voted her because I was replacing in and she had no votes on her and wasn't voting anyone. She looked uninvolved, kind of like I was, and so I involved her. Simultaneously, I involved myself, now I'm in the game. It's stupid, but it's what I always do when replacing into a game with a good bit of pages.

At Zach, when asked about his early votes/suspicions. It could be buddying to town or it could be buddying to partner. Too much WIFOM to make a distinction.

Bluff. Pick two random names, throwem in the sea and see what ripples they make. i'm tellin u, zach, i could have just as easily did the same process with anyone else that wasn't voting or had no votes on them. it's more of a "hey i'm here" vote than anything else, certainly not a "100% scum" vote. appreciate your honesty, though

He’s being slightly called out on his motives. It’s interesting to see the tone of this in contrast to the violent, annoyed tone of his exchanges later with Setael.

No one has anything to say about my post? Okay...

As for my whole deal with looker;

I see no scuminess.

Looker seems to just be in it for the fun

. if he were scum, he probably would not be playing this way, and would be just a bit more cautious (I'm sure I spelt it wrong). I just see a level of noobness I have never seen before.

Why can't anyone understand this? I honestly think people forget that this is a game sometimes and that the purpose is to have fun. O well...

Huge freakin post here. Not just Looker’s, but Arch’s before it. Arch says he sees no scuminess in Looker and he’s “just doing it for the fun”. Remember how that turned out? Worked out well for the town, but Arch completely turned on that idea at the drop of a hat.

Damn

To Zach calling him dumb.

Double damn

To BB calling him dumb

Hey calm down, Ms. Setael. If my first reason is, indeed, "bunk" (as you so cleverly put it) then that's solely because the votecount didn't reflect it. So there, honey, your move.

To Setael calling him out on having weak motives. Different reaction, tone, smileys, than he gave earlier.

I have no talent for reading "newb scum" versus "newb town." So, if you care to point out things Looker has done that indicates scum anything (particularly something an amateur scum is more likely to do), be my guest.

Not gonna happen

Dammit, he’s linking himself to BB now. The callback on BB’s noncommittal post is disconcerting. It’s hard to read someone that’s all over the place.

LOL! O my F**KING GOD! Thank you for shedding some light upon my day and making my life more bearable.

But no, Setael, I am not and was not looking at votecounts in the stead of reading the whole thread. I was merely trying to urge a commitment out of those who had not committed, i.e., you, seeing as I view a vote as a commitment.

Lol, you are f**cking hilarious

Once again, a freakout, directed towards Setael. I’m inclined to say that this helps clear Setael, but this is frustrating getting nothing clear.

lol as in FOS Pablo

Yea, that's right

Oooh, dreaded FoS. I rescind my earlier comment of FoSing partners, he ain’t that bright.

I can't take it anymore. he is too damn annoying.

Vote; Looker

Arch snaps and votes. Helps his case.

Ad hominem...?

@Birthday: Whatcha got? (As in accusations against which I could defend myself, seeing as Archon & Pablo [hmm...scumpair...?] have nothing more than votes)

He’s looking for BB to give him something since my and Arch’s accusations are too harsh for his little brain. This is definitely looking like a reaching out to the scumbuddy move for help to me.

so its agreed!
VOTE: ARCHON
wait, wait, wait, no, no, no...you have to say something first...
unvote

This is just plain bizarre. He’s scrambling, for something, and digging deeper. Trying to gain backing against Arch? Looks like it.

FOS: Archon & Vi Alright, due to this little exchange (and my role pm), I'm startin to get suspicious. I think this crap is staged.

And yet he quotes BB before this as his reasoning for his FoSing. Vi is town and arch has been his target for all late-day.

unvote vote: Archon
FOS Vi & Zach

Last desperate attempt by desperate mafia.

Vi drew the BB connection and only reluctantly voted looker as a consolation prize. Vi ended up dead in the night and would have certainly gone after BB in the day. 100%. BB gave us very bizarre things early this day with his “multi scum teams” that he has tried to amend, but I have not forgot. looker asking for a softball from BB and otherwise staying out of BB's way (when freaking out on everyone else) is the most damaging thing he did to his scumbuddy.

unvote, vote: Beyond Birthday

[Pablo Molinero]

Screwed up the tags, but you can figure it out. And I didn't think it was *that* underwhelming. Let's make a bleedin' decision, people.

[Pablo Molinero]

If Beyond is so confusing AND linked to looker (would not commit to reading the confusing looker, did not hammer, been baffling today) why would you not vote him? We're nearing the end of things and I'm picking up where Vi left off: lynch BB.

[Pablo Molinero]

By allowing the NK, I think we give the mafia the chance to WIFOM the hell out of the kill / make up something from the kill to their advantage / kill off the most-town player. Also, it allows them to try and quickhammer. While our current setup needs 2 townies to be fooled to lose instead of 1 tomorrow.

[Pablo Molinero]

Wel, that's interesting. What the hell does that even mean? Come on peoples, speak up.

[Pablo Molinero]

Great, so the collective conscensus on Looker is "I dunno"?

Town, rank these three from most scum / lynchable to least:
BB
Arch
Zach

[Pablo Molinero]

We have a winner. Someone string up B-B. If you're so set on your opinion not changing, Zach, why wait?

[Pablo Molinero]

If Pablo or Setael dies, yes we know their alignment, but we generally gain nothing in terms of those who actually have suspicion.

We're at a critical point in this game, and a no lynch is, at least from my perspective, the wrong play.

Bingo.

unvote, vote: Arch

For his recent play, first read on Looker being "just wanting to play the game", and then his hard flip in behavior against looker makes me think more and more it was an act. Looker's Vote/FoS at the end of the last day was that of a desperate dead man and I would not put it past him to make a last ditch effort to clear his buddies. Vi's death also continues this line of thinking. Also, the "read me! read me!" Arch gave when I said I'd reread looker makes me think he's FAR eager too get cleared, as if he knows he distanced himself from looker and is proud of the fact.

Let's get something going people, let's not let this game die after we've come 4 months to get to this point.

[Pablo Molinero]

So, yes, I have done extremely scummy things in the recent play. But really; Only a newb or a complete idiot would do something like that, and I can relatively assure myself that I am not an idiot, and I know I'm no newb.

Your scummy things are something that only an idiot or newb would do... and you say you're neither. So... you're scum?

[Pablo Molinero]

Yeah, but you were wrong about idiot-looker. Just sayin'.

I'm not going to be voting Archon.

There's likely 2 scum left, ya know.

To the town: BB/Arch?

[Pablo Molinero]

My big two pairs are BB-Arch and Zach-Arch. Either way, Arch is the pivot point that's looking pretty awful right about now.

[Pablo Molinero]

BB has shown the most logical resistance to the no lynch, where mafia-BB could have used it to NK me without a second thought. Arch, meanwhile, has meandered all over the place on the issue and ended up supporting it EVEN THOUGH it was pointed out that we'll likely lose a protown player. Arch's trying to hard to look town ("read me!"/looking at looker's final vote and FoS's, which we really can't take seriously) instead of finding the final 2 scum, meaning he has no leads because A) He isn't trying too hard. B) He is scum.

I want to hear from has, who has been legitimately away from the entire site since Weds. He gets back Fri-Sat, but I'd like to get something figured out sooner than later.

[Pablo Molinero]

As for mass claim at this stage in the game, would that help us at all?

[Pablo Molinero]

For reals. How's that for inside knowledge? (when the rational-town wasn't even considering it.) Humor us, BB, why did you even bring it up? Seems to me it was done in panic when your scumbuddy died and Vi, the main agressor against you, died as well. Has, you said you we're up for a Zach or BB vote yesterday, does that still ring true?

Also, what the hell was the deal with the vamp-death mechanic? (I know, Grimmy will tell us afterwards, but it's really bizarre).

[Pablo Molinero]

1 scum, 1 scum, 1 town.

Okay, I just got really, really paranoid that I'm a townie sitting in between a Werewolf and a Vampire. ohgodohgodohgodohgod.

[Pablo Molinero]

Your words are irrelevant. I'm completely convinced that you are either one of one scum or one of two scum. All that matters now is the reread and figuring out my optimal move.

[Pablo Molinero]

Alright, I think I have it. I'll explain after the game, but this will pretty much amount to my last game post.

Vote: No lynch

Have fun, kiddies!

[Pablo Molinero]

...

unvote

Except I just thought of something else. Dammit. Either way I'm taking a risk.

[Pablo Molinero]

Yep, thought it through.

Vote: no lynch

Proceed being confused.

[Pablo Molinero]

YES! Town wins! I rule!

Alright, here was the thinking:

The big thing I was worried about was only one 2-person night kill all game, so I figured:

1 Vampire
1 Town-Vampire
2 Werewolfs

So, I was banking on a over-kill on night 1 and 3 to confirm this, due to the descriptions of the kills (Vi's shredded AND bloodless body). Setael as the Town-Vamp (has to be killed first to turn vampire) to soak up one of the other NKs. I was just praying there was no kill-restrictions. I knew BB had to be a Vamp by the last day due to his reaction to looker, and I knew another werewolf had to be alive due to looker's death flavor text (thanks for pointing that out, BB!) Ergo, I was sitting between death and death if we lynched. My only chance was to go into the night and pray. Lo and behold it worked out!

So yeah, I wanna know night actions, too.

[Pablo Molinero]

Oh, that works, too.

GG all.