Mini 733- Congratulations! You are... Mafia (Game Over)

[elvis_knits]

hi

Damn you, Elvis, getting in before I could finish. The rules are in the next post. Scroll down.

[elvis_knits]

I asked for a posting restriction and was thus denied. Therefor I hate all of you who were lucky enough to get one.

vote: glork

Naughty alpaca.

[elvis_knits]

I asked for a posting restriction and was thus denied. Therefor I hate all of you who were lucky enough to get one.

vote: glork

Naughty alpaca.

But I hear in zis contree zat zey say "fake it ontil joo make it," ya?

Are you faking it?

[elvis_knits]

I know nothing of garden gnomes and I want no lemonade. I am in search of something, but none of you have mentioned it.

[elvis_knits]

SlySly has bought some lemonade and nothing horrible has happened. Therefore, more of you should

buy:lemonade

.

That is all. I'd love to tell you what happens when you buy it, but I don't actually know.

You don't know? This convinces me not to buy lemonade. I keep having flashbacks to BM's mystery mafia when the people who agreed to say "Nagasaki" got exploded with atomic bomb. Until I know more, I'm not buying lemonade.

[elvis_knits]

@crazy languages- ok

@Caf- I'd also like to know what is in it for you if we buy lemonade.

I see no attempt to scum hunt here.

unvote: glorkycakes; vote coheedcambria

[elvis_knits]

[elvis_knits]

Your point is null because when me and Glork are fighting in mortal combat, we're on the same side.

[elvis_knits]

I believe that scum give off tells in the random phase, but I also think that the weirder tha game, the less you can see as tells in the random phase. The more idiotic people are acting, the less you can make of the random phase. There is a high level of idiocy in this game. Therefor, I am not interested in looking for tells in the random phase.

Also, I read the book Appaloosa.

[elvis_knits]

Also, voting Ross Perot is fun and all, but let's not be voting him on page 10, please.

[elvis_knits]

Because idiotic and scum look eerily similar.

[elvis_knits]

I've gone from ignoring the weirdness to wanting to see if I can understand some of it.

Ma-ia hii
Ma-ia huu
Ma-ia hoo
Ma-ia haha

I just googled this.

Found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WdMLr8Vftc

It's the most annoying and funniest thing at the same time.

I didn't really arrive at any conclusions about imaginality, but... I had to post this.

[elvis_knits]

Vrei sa pleci dar nu-mã, nu-mã iei
Nu-mã, nu-mã iei, nu-mã, nu-mã, nu-mã iei
Chipul tãu si dragostea din tei
Mi-amintesc de ochii tãi.

Vrei sã pleci dar nu-mã, nu-mã iei
Nu-mã, nu-mã iei, nu-mã, nu-mã, nu-mã iei
Chipul tãu si dragostea din tei
Mi-amintesc de ochii tãi.

Googling this... it seems imaginality is "numa numa" a virus that makes you go crazy and love bad music. lol.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... =numa+numa

Seems anti-town, but maybe every role in this game seems anti-town in some regard...

---

The case against kmd seems fairly weak to me but at the same time, kmd's responses to the questions seem a little too defensive as if he does have something to cover up.

How do you tell the difference between someone defending themselves and someone being too defensive?

[elvis_knits]

What?

[elvis_knits]

:dances:

[elvis_knits]

Hi, I'm going to post now from a cold/flu-induced haze. First I have to look what's been happening, because I don't even know what homoo is doing in this game.

[elvis_knits]

I'm not aware if slysly has expanded on this, but it was his answer to my question from last week, so I'm just going to say whatever I think anyway, even if you guys have already covered it in stuff I haven't read yet.

The case against kmd seems fairly weak to me but at the same time, kmd's responses to the questions seem a little too defensive as if he does have something to cover up.

How do you tell the difference between someone defending themselves and someone being too defensive?

My statement is a result of some of kmd's responses reminding me greatly of some of my own statements in past games where others were saying the same about me.

Were you scum in those games? Are you saying kmd is acting the way you act as scum, or are you saying that other people have gotten away with attacks like this on you whether or not you have been scum?

Because there are a fair number of people that get away with making an attack on a person and then when the person defends themselves, however they do it, the attacker can say "OOOOOOO overdefensive scum DIEDIEDIEDIE!!!!!11111111"

Personally, I think someone who calls another person "overdefensive" is usually scum.

Alo, alo, sunt eu, Picasso
ti-am dat beep
si sunt voinic
Dar sa stii, nu-ti cer nimic.

Te sun, sã-ti spun, ce simt, acum
Alo, iubirea mea sunt eu, fericirea

Alo, salut, sunt eu, un haiduc
si te rog, iubirea mea, primeste fericirea.

Vrei sa pleci dar nu-mã, nu-mã iei
Nu-mã, nu-mã iei, nu-mã, nu-mã, nu-mã iei
Chipul tãu si dragostea din tei
Mi-amintesc de ochii tãi.

Vrei sã pleci dar nu-mã, nu-mã iei
Nu-mã, nu-mã iei, nu-mã, nu-mã, nu-mã iei
Chipul tãu si dragostea din tei
Mi-amintesc de ochii tãi.

These types of posts are not helping the town. I, for one, am not translating them. I have a job already, I signed up for a fun game, not a foreign language class.

I see the foreign language posts, by all the players doing it, as anti-town. I am now assuming that any post that is not in english is scummy.

Is this for serious, because this is bastard mod game... you know that, right? Do you know what that means? That we all have sucky (yet fun, mirth, you know we love it ) roles, and impediments placed in our path. The people with post restrictions are forced to type stupid stuff, and the rest of us are forced to read it.

And why aren't you objecting to the gratuitous posting of kittens? Maybe all the people posting kittens are scummy. OMG KITTENS ARE TEH SCUMZORZEZ!

/nyquil.

[elvis_knits]

/agree with Issac
don't like sly's "foreign languages are scummy" policy at all
also sly, if you believe that the different languages are scummy, shouldn't you be voting someone who is doing so by your logic?

Well, seeing how there are multiple players doing it, and I don't understand what any of them are saying, it is hard to narrow it down to one.

Well, you could start with voting ANY of them, instead of none.

It is good to see that my foreign language stance has sparked a little conversation. Hopefully, we can sniff out some scum in the process.

I HATE when people do that. Say somehting scummy and then be all like "I was trying to start some conversation duuuuudes, and it worked so I'm the shit."

I want to pet those first 3 kitties that destructor posted.

DOUBLESTANDARD between foreigners and kitty posters! Why don't you think kittens are scum, huhhuhuhuh?

[elvis_knits]

So I was just about to do a recap, saying sly is my front-runner, but darox is also scummy for his unexplained pile-on vote on kmd. And then we get this gem:

srsly, joo shood leench darox or dezh today.

What do you have on darox? I have a few of my own ideas about darox, but I want to hear why you are pushing me to vote him. When you say 'dezh' do you mean Destructor? If so, what is your case against him?

If you think I should be voting one of these 2, why are you voting for petroleumjelly and not one of them?

Sly and darox sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G

[elvis_knits]

SO I notice homoo replaced in and voted Isaac, which surprised me because isaac seems town to me, but I have no real reasoning. He just hasn't done anything to make me think he's scummy I guess. His point about other people defending kmd too, is valid, and I do think hascow singled him out.

COW - why is isaac scummier than any of hte other people who defended kmd? plum did... I think I did sort of even.

Overall,

unvote, vote slysly

Elvis, please stop spamming and condense your posts into one post. thank you

[elvis_knits]

DAMN YOU BOTH FOR POSTING I WAS GOING TO FILL A WHOLE PAGE WITH POSTS FROM JUST ME

[elvis_knits]

Kittens beat every other fluffy animal in existence when it comes to cuteness. Nothing that cute could

ever

be scum. They are especially cuter than puppies.

You attack puppies and you attack me, sir. DIE.

Also, what just happened with the orange juice?

[elvis_knits]

Um, I think that imaginality was the first one to say that slysly was unlynchable, and then sly just agreed. Sly made vague warnings, but I think imaginality was the first one to say unlynchable.

Here's what slysly was saying before imaginality says unlynchable. He says the town would be wasting it's time trying to lynch him. I took that to mean "Hey, I'm town so trying to lynch me is not productive as it won't kill scum." I guess it could mean literally, that the town will waste it's time as the lynch won't go through, but that is not the way I took it. Usually when people say "the town will waste a lynch on me" it means that they are town, not that they are unlynchable. Amirite?

i want sly to claim because i think he's scum. big difference

State your case on me clearly please. Then the bandwagon can build, you can be proven wrong and the town can quit wasting time on me.

--------------------------------------

Kmd, please work on your quote tags so you won't be misquoting people in the future like you did me in 367.

--------------------------------------

Cow, for the record, your interpretation was correct about kmd's statement about me full claiming. After thinking it over, I think it is best if I don't full claim at this point.

If people want to waste their time trying to lynch me, more power to them.

For: 3 (Dahill, Cow, Kmd)
Against: 3 (Plum, Caf, Sly)

(bolding there was mine)


And then Imaginality comes in and understands sly differently (than me) and says sly must be unlynchable:

If lynching him = no lynch, is not zo bad. Confirms Sly's claim.

Then sly starts saying he's not sure the lynch would go through, but he doesn't know for sure. Which is pretty weird if even sly "doesn't know," but imaginality apparently does.

SlySly, question: What happens if we try to lynch you? Does the day end? Or does the lynch just fail and game continues?

I assume the day would end, but I don't know that for sure. I don't even know for sure that I won't die, but I have never been witness to a successful sasquatch hunt and for that reason, I suspect the lynch will not succeed.

I guess maybe it's possible that imaginality just jumped to the wrong conclusion, but it seems like there is some communication/coaching/hinting going on between these two, or that imaginality knows more than he's saying. Slysly's role seems hard to pin down, and his story is changing... going from vague warnings, to failure to correct people who say he's unlynchable, to saying he's not sure if he can be lynched or not. I do not like it when stories change.

[elvis_knits]

Guys, I asked Destructor's agreement. Everyone else's consent was not necessary. I hope you will all trust me in that I think Destructer will agree to my demands, for his own good.

I don't see how making him modkill himself is for his own good.

[elvis_knits]

Isacc's plan had no hope of working. This is the second game I've seen him do this (make bad hopeless plans). I don't know if it means anything about his allignment though. I still think we should lynch Sly.

[elvis_knits]

Before I am lynched, other than myself, who do you (townies) find scummy?

Hmm. Intehrrrezting phrase - "you (townies)" = SlySly not townie?

This is a slip. A scum slip.

---

KMD, Isacc is dead in the game i mentioned but the game isn't over, so I probably shouldn't go into it anymore. I only brought it up because it's the only other game I have played with Isacc and it does seem similar to me. I don't know if it's enough to speculate on allignment implications, but just that this may be the way he plays, regardless. I brought it up because I felt that the "hey dez modkill urself mmkay?" plan (which I really think had no chance of succeeding) should be taken with a grain of salt.

[elvis_knits]

Well when you don't include yourself in the group called "town" it makes me suspicious.

[elvis_knits]

I thought you couldn't be lynched?

Or were you lying before?

[elvis_knits]

I think you said that wrong.

[elvis_knits]

I'm wondering if slysly wasn't saved by drinking lemonade? And could it work twice?

Plum -- you posted suspicions of me? I don't remember that. I'll look back and see.

[elvis_knits]

Is this it? You have a problem with the me seeing sly's slip?

Imaginality suggested it and EK echoed it in no uncertain terms. When Sly explained the above reason as to why he specified 'you (townies)', she deftly changes the subject. Fos: elvis_knits.

Well, I have noticed that people never like it when I call out slips or tells. I'm not sure why exactly. Maybe it's because other people don't rely on gut-reaction tells as much as I do. I tend to hit on small things that don't make sense to me. Often, a small thing will make me look harder at a person, and either through questions or through looking at their other posts, I get more (or less) convinced of them being scummy. Maybe this is not how other people work?

Anyway, I do sometimes get caught up in wording. Because I think it can show how a player is subconsciously considering themselves. If they are putting themselves in the town group, or out of the town group. That's pretty significant to me. Other things I have seen, a player voting someone they consider town, a player slip and name an exact number of scum in a game. That is pretty much defnitely a scum slip. I try to notice things like that. You may not agree with me. It's not an exact science, but it helps me a lot.

As to "deftly changing the subject" I don't remember doing that.

[elvis_knits]

EK, you DEFINITELY changed the subject.

491 - you are explaining why you found him suspicious for his word choice.
492 - SlySly finishes what is a pretty logical defense, overall. Regardless, the topic is still on his word choice.
493 - you suddenly attack his "no lynch" claim, making no overall response to his defense against your word choice attack, and from then on never touch the subject again.

If that isn't changing the subject, then I am Abraham Lincoln.

I didn't change the subject, slysly did. The unlychable aspect seemed like it didn't make sense. Like he had been changing his story. I smelled lie, so I went after it.

Also, it went more like this:
Originally called it a slip in 488
dahill says he doesn't buy the slip in 489
Explained further in 491
Got distracted by the unlynchable aspect in 493

[elvis_knits]

"Got distracted" is code for "changed the subject to."

I'm not liking your explanation here. I don't buy it at all. I don't see how SlySly changed the subject, and the fact remains you jumped from "Your word choice is suspicious," to "That one part of your last defense is suspicious."

Fos: Elvis_Knits

with a vote possibly coming after I do my PBPA on Darox.

If you want to call it that, okay. Maybe I did change the subject, but guess I just don't understand what was weird about it. I stand by the "slip" remark, and I've explaned it numerous times. The fact that I may sometimes talk about other things, doesn't mean anything. It's not like I didn't want to talk about the slip. I've talked about it a lot. We can talk about it all day. I don't understand the problem with me having multiple points and going from one to the other.

[elvis_knits]

CHANGING THE SUBJECT NOW...

I found it interesting that sly still has seven votes on him. The VC didn't reset. He has seven votes on him and continues to live. So I guess we can't lynch him today.

unvote

I have to look through the thread and see where I want to put my vote now. I'm thinking darox or maybe cow. Darox for that weird bandwagon vote on kmd with no reasons explained. cow because he went on Isaac's witch hunt against des.

[elvis_knits]

vote slysly

[elvis_knits]

cow because he went on Isaac's witch hunt against des.

Um, I didn't think Isacc's ultimatum against des was a good thing, I wanted clarification on the German thing after zazier said she couldn't speak English.

I see you voted des first (before Isaac's insano-plan). I also see that you have had a fair amount of attacks on Isaac. I did not see you say how bad Isacc's plan was (until recently, after the major dust-up). It seems like you should have said how much you disliked the plan if you didn't like it, especially if it came from isaac, who you were already suspicious of.

[elvis_knits]

cow because he went on Isaac's witch hunt against des.

Um, I didn't think Isacc's ultimatum against des was a good thing, I wanted clarification on the German thing after zazier said she couldn't speak English.

I see you voted des first (before Isaac's insano-plan). I also see that you have had a fair amount of attacks on Isaac. I did not see you say how bad Isacc's plan was (until recently, after the major dust-up). It seems like you should have said how much you disliked the plan if you didn't like it, especially if it came from isaac, who you were already suspicious of.

I may not have talked about how bad isacc's plan was at the time, but plenty of other people were. I also didn't support it, so if other people are attacking it, why should I? I wouldn't have added anything except "I don't like Isacc's plan either", and that would've looked like following.

Since you had voted des (although, I don't think you were voting him at the time) because of the english/german question, and Isacc's plan had to do with that issue, it's not easy to tell your feelings on the subject. I thought you might support isaac, because you brought up that exact same issue against des.

And why are you worried about "following" or appearing to follow?

[elvis_knits]

I don't know what you guys are talking about or how it helps anything.

caf... how many people have to buy lemonade from you? If they don't, will the lynch fail? I think I remember you saying something about "the day can't end yet."

I don't think Glork is scum. I've been in other games with a person whose vote doesn't count. Sometimes we lynch them because they can screw the town in endgame. However, I don't think we should lynch him just because he doesn't have a vote at the moment. It's possible that his role has other powers that are useful to us, or that he will have a vote on other days, or after something happens. So we shouldn't knee-jerk lynch him unless we think he's scum.

If we can't lynch sly, I'll go for cow since I sensed something scummy with the Isaac plan/des stuff. I really didn't like when cow said he didn't say how he hated Isaac's plan because he "didn't want to look like a follower." Being overly worried that your actions might look scummy is usually a sign of being scum.

unvote sly; vote hascow

[elvis_knits]

I'm still here for real guys.

I'll throw down an overview soon. And by soon I mean when it gets done.

I can't think of a single thing you've done this game except for a bandwagon vote on kmd with no explanation.

unvote; vote darox

[elvis_knits]

Dear Other Players,

It looks like Sly is not going to die today. We have to lynch someone else. Please come back.

xoxo,
elvis

[elvis_knits]

I think Darox is the play today. His participation has been pathetic. The fact that he has promised things and not come through really makes me suspicious. Combined with the bandwagon vote on KMD with no explanation, he remains my choice.

[elvis_knits]

Sorry I wasn't around this weekend. I'm reading up now...

[elvis_knits]

I think Darox is the play today. His participation has been pathetic. The fact that he has promised things and not come through really makes me suspicious. Combined with the bandwagon vote on KMD with no explanation, he remains my choice.

what are your thoughts on him now that he's completed the review?

I don't like his review. It's only of half the people in the game. I don't like that at all. When you pick only certain people to review, that makes me suspicious... like he's shaping his answers. Why choose the people he did? Why leave out the people he did? It's not like his review was only people he found scummy. He said I was scummy, buddied up to hascow and lucifer, says a whole lot of nothing about caf, dahill, and glork. I don't agree with him about hascow, and feel he was sucking up. And the only person he accused of being scummy was me, and that's basically OMGUS.

I still support his lynch.

[elvis_knits]

Sorry I wasn't around this weekend. I'm reading up now...

Did joo have a jot valentinezh date?

No, it was Singles Awareness Day for me. I went to see Friday the 13th though

[elvis_knits]

I think I just said that.

[elvis_knits]

I think Darox is the play today. His participation has been pathetic. The fact that he has promised things and not come through really makes me suspicious. Combined with the bandwagon vote on KMD with no explanation, he remains my choice.

what are your thoughts on him now that he's completed the review?

I don't like his review. It's only of half the people in the game. I don't like that at all. When you pick only certain people to review, that makes me suspicious... like he's shaping his answers. Why choose the people he did? Why leave out the people he did? It's not like his review was only people he found scummy. He said I was scummy, buddied up to hascow and lucifer, says a whole lot of nothing about caf, dahill, and glork. I don't agree with him about hascow, and feel he was sucking up. And the only person he accused of being scummy was me, and that's basically OMGUS.

I still support his lynch.

Those are the first six people listed on the front page.

That's why I picked the people I did, and that's why I left out the people I did. Because I was only half done.

Okay... I see the thing about the list from the first page. But explain the rest. You are buddying to hascow and OMGUSing me, and your assessments of the rest tell me nothing.

[elvis_knits]

Didn't we hit deadline?

No. Y'all were whiney and I gave you an extension

I don't like destructor hammering away at Glork over being voteless. I've already said how we don't know if Glork has other abilities that we might want/need around. Also, he may get his vote back at some point -- I've seen roles like that. I remember I think it was llama in Family guy mini who was random joat and if he unradnomized himself he would lose his night ability but gain his vote back. So there's no reason to auto-lynch Glork at this point.

[elvis_knits]

Why did you choose to make your most recent decisions based on him flipping town, rather than scum?

The play of a few has given me a hunch that Darox is town and they are scum.

I would also suggest that no one buy the lemonade. It sounds like a way to join a cult to me. If it were not for my role, there is no way I would have bought some.

Re: lemonade.

I think caf's town because he didn't make some shit up about what would happen if we had lemonade. I think scum would be tempted to lie about it. Caf has been frankly telling us that something happens but he can't tell us.

I don't think caf has been especially scummy either, but your logic here makes no sense. If caf is scum and makes something up about what the lemonade does, it could be easy to catch him in later. If he lies, we'll probably lynch him. So the fact that he didn't lie doesn't make him town.

Towntell on Sly is that he bought lemonade at all. Glork said scum were more likely to buy it because they'd have more reason to believe Sly is town, and so won't harm people. On the other hand, scum would not go near the stuff if they knew that buying some

helped a pro-town player

.

Another logic fail. Sly says he's hard to kill, so that's probably the bigger reason he took lemonade and he's not afraid of what the lemonade will do.

[elvis_knits]

[elvis_knits]

[elvis_knits]

I was asked about Glork vs. Des.

As far as policy lynching Glork, I actually do see Des's point. I was against the idea until I thought up a hypothetical scenario. Glork being alive at LYLO hurts us more than lynching Glork hurts us. And that's if he's town. If he's scum, that's even more reason to lynch him.

As far as Des, he seems pretty protown IMO.

I honestly think both are town and Glork is a policy lynch at most.

What about Des asking for a claim from Glork earlier today? Still protown?

Not pro-town.

[elvis_knits]

I am too.

[elvis_knits]

Where is the rest of your opinions on people? You did half and stopped.

[elvis_knits]

deadline lurking = scummy

[elvis_knits]

I don't think we have anything better. I don't think we can get a des lynch together before deadline.

[elvis_knits]

I don't think we have anything better. I don't think we can get a des lynch together before deadline.

Would you prefer a Des lynch over a Darox lynch, ideally? Inquiring minds want to know.

I don't liek des's push on Glork and pushing him to claim. It's something I would and have advocated as scum. You can say: "Get rid of the guy who can't vote because that hurts the town!" But what you really mean is: "This guy is an easy lynch! I don't care who dies today as long as it's not me!" Unless Glork is acting scummy, there's no reason to auto lynch him because he can't vote today.

So, I'm not a fan of des. But every time darox opens his mouth, he makes me nervous. He hasn't provided good reasoning for his votes, and has promised us stuff like reads on people, and then not finished them, buddied up tremendously to hascow for no reason, voiced suspicions of me which are blatant OMGUS. And his "I can't claim or I'll be modkilled" could be true, but it's also ultra-convenient.

[elvis_knits]

So I'm not changing my vote... I prefer darox lynch.

[elvis_knits]

#2: Hascow, the guy I was just talking about. Awesome.
Coheed contributes a whole lot of nothing, so hascow is starting from pretty much a blank slate here. Starts with a rundown of posts he thought were noteworthy, and a list of people he feels the need to comment on. He votes for Isacc here, which is important because Isacc blows up at this point and all sorts of other controversy stems from it. He defends himself pretty well against Isacc's knee jerk attack.
A short while later, it's brought up again, and he pretty much stomps all over the people protesting his suspicion of Isacc. Several times.
Mentions some suspicions of Sly , votes destructor for the German thing.
Slaps a silent vote down on Sly (L-2) which is kind of disconcerting considering his previously stated suspicions consisted of a couple of offhand comments and a HoS. He then goes on to treat Sly as public enemy #1, which makes me feel like he's missed a few steps.
Then we get to the part with caf, where as I said before, hascow pretty much trashes caf's weak jabs at him.
Some trashing of Isacc and his Modkill plan occurs, and refutes EK's bizarre accusation of hascow having joined in on Isacc's Modkill plan.

Diagnosis: Awesome. Totally rad to the max. Looking pretty good so far

Calling hascow "awesome, and totally rad to the max" is buddying.

[elvis_knits]

Calling hascow "awesome, and totally rad to the max" is buddying.

Actually, considering how cow described his role, I took this as some possible link to cow, such as an 'awesome' masonry.

I think they would have said if they're masons...

also, I think cow objected to the buddying. If they were masons, I don't think cow would mind the buddying.

[elvis_knits]

I never said hascow was "in on" the modkill plan. I said hascow seemed to support it, or at least not come out against it. cow now says he thought it was a bad plan. Which I still think it's weird he didn't say so at the time. Sort of seeing if it would fly before commenting. But I never said howcow was in on the plan.

I noticed my typo, but i'm leaving it. hownowbrowncow.

[elvis_knits]

I <3 David Duchovny. It's odd that he was a lyncher, because I was getting the feeling that dez was a lyncher trying to lynch Glork.

I have some lingering suspicions about cow, but I guess I can't go there today because he's silenced.

I'll probably take a look at darox's posts to see who he could be connected to.

[elvis_knits]

I don't like the idea of giving him a free ride either, but the alternative is to vote him without hearing any explanation for his play (which could help sway us one way or the other), and lynch him without a claim.

Hey, maybe we can lynch sly today?

vote slysly

[elvis_knits]

As most of you ought to know, EK has been pinging my scumdar since Day 1. Her actions have been a little off here or there, as I have pointed out before. Also, now I am noticing a suspiciously similar playstyle to another game where she has recently flipped scum. Meta is making me worry.

What is the similarity here?

Oh I see you just said I'm not aggressive enough from what a friend told you?? Maybe you should look at some other games if you really want a meta, and not rely on what some unnamed person's impression is of me.

But here's a more interesting thing to note. Darox was scum, and prior to his lynch, I asked for his top three targets. He named, Destructor, myself, and Elvis_Knits.

This is interesting to me, as two of the three are confirmed town (at least to me...those two being Dest and myself of course).

The other, however, was already pretty suspicious in my eyes. So here's what I see: a scum going down would love to accuse a scumbuddy just before his fall, just so that people might loosen up on them after he flipped. So, if two of the three are town, but the other is suspicious...I say EK is probably another scum.

Have you heard of WIFOM? I'm not goint to assume that you're scum for the same reasoning because I think it's a very weak reason. I think interaction is much more important when we look for darox's scum buddies.

Also, I think we should try to lynch Sly again today. If we can't, we go for someone else.

[elvis_knits]

I was concerned the message wasn't sinking in.

What are you worried about if you can't be lynched?

[elvis_knits]

Darox wagon analysis! Here you can see how the Darox wagon built, who voted then unvoted and such.


Darox wagon built quickly. I think these votes came in like a page:

Votecount

darox - badger -[imaginality, elvis, des, sly]
elvis - badger - [Plum, Isacc]
Sly - badger - [Darox]
Kmd - badger - [Dahill]
Isacc - badger - [Kmd]
PJ - badger - [Glork]

Not Voting - mushroom - [Caf, cow]

Change from last VC to next is that Sly unvoted darox, and KMD votes him.

Votecount

darox - mary -[imaginality, elvis, des, kmd]
elvis - had - [Plum, Isacc]
Kmd - a - [Dahill]
des - little - [sly]
PJ - lamb - [Glork]

Not Voting - baaaaaaaaaaaaaa - [Caf, cow, Darox]

Change from last to next is kmd unvotes him.

Votecount

darox - 87329572 -[imaginality, elvis, des]
elvis - potato - [Plum, Isacc]
Kmd - 3587297529830918353 - [Dahill]
des - 1 - [sly]
Isaac - 208420 - [kmd]
PJ - 1837593 - [Glork]

Not Voting - 3 - [Caf, cow, Darox]

Change = Isaac adds his vote to Darox

Votecount

darox - b -[imaginality, elvis, des, Isacc]
Kmd - i - [Dahill]
des - n - [sly, Plum]
Isaac - g - [kmd]
PJ - o - [Glork]

Not Voting - g5 - [Caf, cow, Darox]

Change from last to next = kmd revotes darox

Votecount

darox - you -[imaginality, elvis, des, Isacc, kmd]
Kmd - have - [Dahill]
des - about - [sly, Plum]
PJ - 28 hours - [Glork]

Not Voting - 45 mins- [Caf, cow, Darox]

Change = caf and dahill vote darox.

Votecount

darox - finally -[imaginality, elvis, des, Isacc, kmd, caf, dahill]

des - this - [sly, Plum, Darox]
PJ - god forsaken day - [Glork]

Not Voting - is over- [cow, ]

SO this wagon is pretty interesting because it builds quickly, partly because of a looming deadline, I think. kmd's vote and unvote, and revote of darox looks suspicious to me. The first vote came close to the first deadline, which makes me think it could have been a last resort kind of vote to make sure you get on the scum buddies wagon. Although, at the time, I had two votes on me, and if kmd voted me, I would be tied with darox. darox would have still been lynched because he reached three first, unless kmd could get someone else to vote for me. In addition, isacc and caf are suspicious to me because they are late in joining the darox wagon.

There was always a rival bandwagon to darox, which makes it very interesting to note which wagon people chose. First I was rival bandwagon to darox, and then des was the rival wagon. Plum was on both these rival wagons. Both rival wagons were close to succeeding and overtaking the darox wagon. Plum was looking anywhere for a lynch but at Darox.

[elvis_knits]

Zen, after EK said I don't think we can get a des lynch together before deadline, Plomzh lobbied for EK to veigh in on Dezh again. I really think zat Plomzh vos again lookink for somebody to shift to Dezh so zat he vood bekom ze deadline leench.

I'll respond to this right away because I happen to clearly remember why I did it: EK's phrasing seemed to suggest that EK might prefer a Des lynch if there was any chance it was possible. I wanted EK to confirm or reject that interpretation, which was the first one that occured to me, so that we could have a clearer general understanding of all players' positions on Des and Darox as we approached a lynch influenced partly by the deadline.

I see plum's away for a few days. When she gets back I would like to know what Plum's conclusions are about me and what I said about des vs. darox lynch from yesterday.

[elvis_knits]

EK: I am not relying purely on some "unnamed person"s knowledge of you. Look at other games? Ok, I did. The one I just mentioned.

Comparing to one game where I was scum is not building a meta of me. Look at a game where I was town, then comment.

Next, I have a specific reference who tells me that as town you act differently than you are now. And it's not his "impression" of you, it's actually by your words that you apparently act different as a townie. Sorry, but if that's not good enough for

you

that really doesn't matter much.

Why are all these people talking about me behind my back

Please be more specific, because I don't know what you're talking about now. What are you saying that some specific refernce says that I said about myself?

[elvis_knits]

In addition, isacc and caf are suspicious to me because they are late in joining the darox wagon.

Eh, I was actually on Darox's case for quite a lot of D1 (or as much of 'on his case' as I could be without him answering most of my questions). The reason I didn't vote, as I said at the time, is that I hadn't sold enough lemonade and I didn't want to end the day without this having happened. After the lemonade got bought, I made a couple of other small posts, announced my intention to vote, then voted.

You are bringing up some good points with this post (most of which I'm cutting out... but I do think your points are important). My analysis was mainly on the vote counts, and I notice now that it misses some of the finer points. So I'm glad you're bringing this stuff up.

I think you're right that you were anti-darox for much of the day. I understand your reasoning that you weren't voting because you needed to sell lemonade... but still, attacking without voting is usually scummy in my book.

I am concerned that you seem more intent on selling lemonade than on scum hunting.

Although, I agree with the following conclusions, which make me feel a little better about you:

tl;dr: SlySly and Plum are suspicious.

[elvis_knits]

Plum, you answered caf, but didn't answer me:

There was always a rival bandwagon to darox, which makes it very interesting to note which wagon people chose. First I was rival bandwagon to darox, and then des was the rival wagon. Plum was on both these rival wagons. Both rival wagons were close to succeeding and overtaking the darox wagon. Plum was looking anywhere for a lynch but at Darox.

Zen, after EK said I don't think we can get a des lynch together before deadline, Plomzh lobbied for EK to veigh in on Dezh again. I really think zat Plomzh vos again lookink for somebody to shift to Dezh so zat he vood bekom ze deadline leench.

I'll respond to this right away because I happen to clearly remember why I did it: EK's phrasing seemed to suggest that EK might prefer a Des lynch if there was any chance it was possible. I wanted EK to confirm or reject that interpretation, which was the first one that occured to me, so that we could have a clearer general understanding of all players' positions on Des and Darox as we approached a lynch influenced partly by the deadline.

I see plum's away for a few days. When she gets back I would like to know what Plum's conclusions are about me and what I said about des vs. darox lynch from yesterday.

[elvis_knits]

Buy lemonade

I'm more interested in seeing caf scum hunt than I am in talking endlessly about lemonade. This whole lemonade thing is distracting. I'm still wary of it, but w/e. If I die, I die.

The other two people who bought it yesterday should buy it again. Then we can stop talking about the lemonade for a while.

[elvis_knits]

Vote Plum

She's had a week to respond to me and hasn't done so. She's gotten on and responded to others, but not to me.

[elvis_knits]

Plum, you answered caf, but didn't answer me:

There was always a rival bandwagon to darox, which makes it very interesting to note which wagon people chose. First I was rival bandwagon to darox, and then des was the rival wagon. Plum was on both these rival wagons. Both rival wagons were close to succeeding and overtaking the darox wagon. Plum was looking anywhere for a lynch but at Darox.

Zen, after EK said I don't think we can get a des lynch together before deadline, Plomzh lobbied for EK to veigh in on Dezh again. I really think zat Plomzh vos again lookink for somebody to shift to Dezh so zat he vood bekom ze deadline leench.

I'll respond to this right away because I happen to clearly remember why I did it: EK's phrasing seemed to suggest that EK might prefer a Des lynch if there was any chance it was possible. I wanted EK to confirm or reject that interpretation, which was the first one that occured to me, so that we could have a clearer general understanding of all players' positions on Des and Darox as we approached a lynch influenced partly by the deadline.

I see plum's away for a few days. When she gets back I would like to know what Plum's conclusions are about me and what I said about des vs. darox lynch from yesterday.

Was I looking anywhere for a lynch but Darox? Interesting accusation, as I undeniably was on what EK refers to as the 'rival bandwagons'. On page 29, for instance, I notice I'm already voting EK, and that I'm the only one voting her. No one, at this point, is voting Darox at all. It's on this page that the Darox wagon starts; first imaginality then EK vote him in quick succession, mostly for lack of scumhunting, fair enough. EK was one of the first on the Darox wagon - this might be a slight point in your favor, EK. Something I'm having trouble coming to a strong conclusion on is the fact that Darox seems to argue EK's side in the 'Sly's scumslip or not?' case. I'll refrain from spending time on analysing how right either side of that case actually was any more; suffice it to say that on reread the change of subject is there, though possibly not as strong as I'd suspected, and the fact that Sly had already explained why he'd used the phrasing he did only makes EK's subsequent slip look worse. Thus I still find it a point of curiosity that despite the fact that he calls EK out for her assertation that Hadcow jumped in with Isacc's witch hunt, Darox claimed to be slightly suspicious but much more confused. The problem is that Darox said little more conclusive about anyone (aside from Hascow) than that. Still, for someone he said made a 'rediculous accusation' and implying that her vote on Hascow for what he did was out of place, I might expect something stronger. This makes me lean slightly more towards the possibility that EK is Darox's buddy. If so, she bussed early-ish, though at that point he looked as likely a lynch as any besides her own, and I have seen excellent bussing so well-done and early it was undetectable as bussing.

Everything about the above paragraph is kinda/sorta answering me, but it's very unclear/speculative/wifom.

Please answer this directly:

Did darox seem pro-town to you?
Were you trying to get me to switch my vote from darox to des at the last minute?

Back to the accusation that I was looking anywhere but Darox for a lynch. I'll count you wrong on the first wagon you mention, as at the time I joined it I'd both expounded on my reasoning and there was no Darox wagon at all. I was on the Des wagon, and yes, at that point it was a rival to the Darox wagon. I hope I explained sufficiently why I was on that wagon and why I strongly believed Des was very scummy.

Okay, you thought des was scummy, but was darox NOT scummy? We have to reach a consensus in this game to get a lynch. I respect pursuing different candidates, but when most of the town is looking at a certain player, and moving towards a lynch, you have to decide whether you want to help lynch the person or not. You decided not to. Why?

In the context of Darox, I conclude, EK does not show too many strong signs of sumbuddyhood. Overall, though, my gut and a few incidents with her make me feel she's scummiest.

In regard to what you said with the Darox wagon vs. possibly last-minute Des counter-wagon: If you had proffessed to prefer a Des lynch at that point, after Darox's lynch and flip you would have been, in my mind, either stupid scum (deadline was that night and the general consensus was that Darox was the play,

and

you'd been pushing him for a while) or honest town who reconsidered and legitimately found Des scummier. You supported the Darox, lynch, however, making you either decent scum or honest town. "Honest-to-goodness, Plum," you say, "but that was a useful piece of information! Now we know that . . . EK is either scum or town! What usefulness we have here!" No, my conclusions from your answer to that one question don't happen to be earth-shattering at all on their own they don't give us all that that much. But as the question (am I wrong?) was '"What did you get out of asking that question" the answer is "clarification for myself and anyone else who felt EK had said something somewhat ambiguous, that EK did not believe Des scummier than Darox as the day ended". Is that fact in and of itself conclusive of anything but the above? Not much, sorry.

Geez. You're talking me to death here...

So you're saying you asked for clarification on smething where the clarification leads you to conclude nothing. And you're saying, even if my answer had been different, you probably couldn't have been able to conclude anything. So... what was the point?

It seems more like you were trying to see if you could get me to switch my vote to des.

Your

explanation would make your actions pointless, which I don't believe.

My conclusions about EK on the whole of it, however, are a bit stronger: I think she's the best candidate for scum on terms of her own scumminess thus far. Re: the carp accusation on Hascow:

I dropped the issue at its inception, partly because at face value the accusation was so ridiculous and EK had said, if I recall, that she'd been in need of a reread. However, following up, she did not acknowledge that the accusation was inane but attempted to justify it with weak points. Cow's lack of comment on Isacc's plan was in no way ambiguous enough, much less as scummy as the original accusation's tone would imply, to justify considering a vote. Basically, saying that Cow 'went on Isacc's witch hunt against des' is a lie, implying that he did something scummy he did not do is itself scummy, and the weak justifications don't help.

I fail to see the problem in my suspicions over hascow. If I remember correctly, he didn't comment on isacc's plan, but voted with him. That is enough evidence to suggest he supported the plan. IF he didn't support the plan, he should have said so, since he's voting with the guy. Otherwise it looks like they're in the same boat.

And hascow saying LATER that he never supported the plan looks like a lie to me. Because of where his vote was.

As I've posted before,

Bit of analysis and responses to EK:

Is this it? You have a problem with the me seeing sly's slip?

I have a problem that you state with such conviction that it was a slip, because I don't see that it was any sort of explicit tell at all.

Imaginality suggested it and EK echoed it in no uncertain terms. When Sly explained the above reason as to why he specified 'you (townies)', she deftly changes the subject. Fos: elvis_knits.

Well, I have noticed that people never like it when I call out slips or tells. I'm not sure why exactly. Maybe it's because other people don't rely on gut-reaction tells as much as I do. I tend to hit on small things that don't make sense to me. Often, a small thing will make me look harder at a person, and either through questions or through looking at their other posts, I get more (or less) convinced of them being scummy. Maybe this is not how other people work?

Anyway, I do sometimes get caught up in wording. Because I think it can show how a player is subconsciously considering themselves. If they are putting themselves in the town group, or out of the town group. That's pretty significant to me. Other things I have seen, a player voting someone they consider town, a player slip and name an exact number of scum in a game. That is pretty much defnitely a scum slip. I try to notice things like that. You may not agree with me. It's not an exact science, but it helps me a lot.

As to "deftly changing the subject" I don't remember doing that.

First paragraph is a long ramble about how sometimes you will hit on small things during the course of your scumhunt, and how people 'never like it' when you call out slips or tells. I don't care either way, just that you're arguing that something is a slip when it clearly isn't. Ramble smacks of subtle meta defense, which I generally consider a fairly mild scumtell.

Second paragraph also contains a fair amount of filler, but whatever: Did you reread the exchange and notice that Sly had two short posts using only 'you' pronouns. The first was directed at Darox. The second was phrased fairly naturally in a sentence structure which required parenthetical clarification as to who 'you' referred to, as in the last post it had been Darox, not the town at large.

Deftly changing the subject:

You accused Sly, in no uncertain terms, as having shown a scum slip. Sly commented in his usual kinda useless way, and you told him you were suspicious of the fact that he didn't include himself in the 'town' group. Sly elaborated. Instead of either continuing the argument, or ending it with a statement that 'I still see it as a slip/sorry, my bad' and continuing on, you turned to a completely different subject. You made an incorrect accusation, discussed it, and, Sly having elaborated, you ignore the discussion on your bad accusation and turn the conversation towards Sly's apparently evolving degree of claimed lynch-proofness. He'd already shown it to be varied and/or evolving, at any rate. If you'd been suspicious he'd been lying, you might have brought it up before. As it is, it looks like a convenient attack to pick up when your attack fell flat due to its incorrectness.

Those are the main points in my case on EK, though I might have forgotten to note less major points. I may do a reread of EK but unfortunately my time will be somewhat limited until Wednesday, though I'll be about for anything current.

And I've answered all that before. You're writing us a novel here to say that you think I'm scum because I noticed a "slip" that you don't agree with, and because I talk about more than one thing at the same time ("deflty changing subjects"). Both these points are weak and lame and speculative.

Right now I'll take the liberty to

Vote: EK

OMGUS

[elvis_knits]

I am, though, severely off-put by EK's claim of "OMGUS" on Plum. Plum had suspected EK since D1, and clearly still did today. Just because his vote came after EK's doesn't make that OMGUS.

Plum was voting me a LONG time ago. I thought Plum was going other places and looking at other people. The fact that she comes back hard at me after I vote her, does seem like OMGUS to me. Others can judge for themselves.

And hascow saying LATER that he never supported the plan looks like a lie to me. Because of where his vote was

Funny because

this

looks more like a lie to me.

I have ot look at the whole thing again... I don't remember all of it. Maybe I am wrong in what I remember. I just remember I thought there was something scummy about hascow there.

]
I am feeling confident in an EK lynch, and I find the Plum wagon very interesting.

The wagon of two people? One of them being me? I can't imagine why you don't like that wagon...

[elvis_knits]

Votecount

Isacc - pi - [Kmd, Imaginality]
Elvis - e - [Isacc, Plum]
Plum - ! - [Elvis, Sly]

Not Voting - 1 - [Glork, Plum, Hascow, Caf]

Judging from this VC, we're going to need to see some movement from some people. Glork and hascow can't vote, I think. SO caf is the only person who isn't voting who can do so. Also, maybe Plum, if she has a second vote (unless that's a typo).

I would like to see some substance from caf. I thought that caf would concentrate better on scum hunting without worrying about the lemonade. So far that hasn't happened. I'm starting ot think I should have promised to buy lemonade if caf agreed to be more involved, but not just bought it like I did.

[elvis_knits]

At the time, I didn't think that she'd punk out on helping the town.

[elvis_knits]

Really though, I do not see scumtells coming from Plum. I won't defend her against accusations, but I feel it helpful to at least point out that I don't find her scummy.

You've been pro-plum all game. I find it strange for you to be so adament. I understand having a town read on a person. That's normal. But you categorically deny any attack against Plum. How can you be so sure? You can say "I won't defend her against accusations" but you actually ARE defending her.

kmd: Can you recap your points on Isacc, or point me to the most important post? I've been so focused on interrogating Plum, that I glossed over the stuff between you and Isacc.

[elvis_knits]

I pretty much agree with Sly. I think town don't usually make gambits, and when they do, it usually fucks the game royally. I USUALLY see scum as the ones laying traps and pulling stuff. Not saying it's not possible for town to do it too, but it's much less likely.

[elvis_knits]

Theorrry qwvestion: somevun or somezing haf zilence hascow, yes?

If ve haf a silencer role, vhat is meta herre on MS? Is silencer nearly alvays anti-town rrole? or can be eizer prrro-town orrr anti-town?

It seems anti-town to me. I remember a looooooong time ago I was in a game and I had a silencer power when I was mafia. But I don't know what the prevailing wisdom is nowadays.

Anyways, I look forward to hearing from des 2.0.

[elvis_knits]

hi imaginality!

[elvis_knits]

AND NOW, for more thoughts on the kmd case:

Points Four and Five

Non-Committal statements to create wiggle room/contradiction

a.)"As for the lemonade, I don't find it scummy yet, but I am still a little put-off by it."
First, you don't find it scummy "yet". So your opinion can change when everyone else's does? Sure, Caf may do something scummy later, but you are addressing lemonade specifically. There is no specific lean on it. Second, define "put-off" on something you admit you "don't find scummy". Seems like a contradiction to me.

(If Charter was in this game, he'd call you out on a scum slip because the only way to be "put-off" by something you "don't find scummy" is if you are scum worried about a power role. I rarely believe in slips though, so I see this more as trying to be able to take either side later.)

edit: I think you meant you didn't find it scummy (yet) that Sly bought the lemonade, not that Caf was selling it. Point still stands, but I think I misread who you were talking about.

Agree. Waffling can be scum testing the waters to see where the town is willing to go, what the town is willing to buy.

b/c)You were also non-committal in calling Darox "odd" and calling dahill "ridiculous". I elaborate on those later.

This I find one of the best points, since darox is known scum.

d)"In other news, Sly your comments about foreign languages seems kinda anti-town." anti-town? Not scummy? Looking through that post (15 under your posts in isolation), I see nothing that shows whether you think Sly is scum for this or not.

e)"Alright, while the whole SlySly issue is very interesting, I would rather address a matter I feel I can get a definite read on for now, so as to whether or not his claim seems legit, I am holding off on deciding." translates to "We had a roleclaim, but I'm not gonna look at it yet."

Agree. Scum testing waters without commiting.

Point Seven

Distancing from Darox

a) "Darox is odd to me. While it seems his "who would win" scenarios are probably a role related thing, that doesn't explain why he voted Glork for it. Seems a bit strange to still be random voting at this point. small FoS until we get an explanation on that."

Your first suspicion of the game. Well, first real suspicion. (You joke voted Caf.) And you don't even specifically call him scummy. This is as small a suspicion as you can get. You call him "odd" and you even FoS. But wait. Not just FoS, but a "small FoS". Was there really a purpose in this? If you are town, I don't see one. If you are scum with Darox, I call distancing. (Note that the FoS was "removed" just 2 posts later)

b)Another FoS after Darox doesn't justify his vote.

c) "@Sly: As to who I find scummy, let's see...
Darox continues to frustrate me. He rarely posts anything original, and his content is more often the "Who would win" than anything else at all. The only time I think I see him making an actual argument is against SlySly."- Still haven't voted Darox AT ALL, but you HAVE FoS'd twice.

d)"I think, in light of Darox, I am going to do a PBPA to see if my memory is correct. I'll post it later."- You avoided this until I asked about it.

e) You finally vote Darox when it's clear he's our most likely lynch. Sets you up to say you look more townie for voting him. After that, you finally bring forward that PBPA and push hard for the lynch. And this late push makes you look pretty obsessed with getting Darox lynched. After just a few FoS's and small jabs before. Smells like classic bussing to me.

Agree. This is the most important part of the case to me. Ties to darox, and also for being hypocritical because Isaac was random voting for a long time too. But mostly for pattern of FOSing known scum darox.

Point Eight

Lack of Solid stance on early Dahill vs. Kmd

First, you only comment because you feel you have to, shown here: "the length of this tiny squabble has made me realize I am going to be obligated to take some position or side, or at least provide commentary."

Next, you say dahill is over reacting to it. Ok, you take a side. But you fail to correlate it to an alignment of either player. You FoS dahill and leave it at that. And the FoS isn't even for being scummy. It's for being, " for being, frankly, ridiculous."

"Why is it weird to you that a person explains their actions as they do them? How in the world does that make it scummy? I'm reading it totally right, and I maintain you have no case, your argument holds no water, and you're voting for nothing."
You are quite clearly disagreeing with dahill here and "taking my side", but again, nothing about an alignment on either player. No suspicions or even bad vibes yet.

"Dahill, I will start by saying you have defended yourself well, and my worries towards you have lessened significantly. That said, there are still some parts of your argument I disagree with."
Now you are acting like you had previously been calling dahill scum. You weren't. And still no suspicions at this point in the game. On anyone.

"I think a scum and town are both likely to want to explain their actions the way Kmd did."
Good to know. But no mention of which is MORE likely in THIS situation.

"it's not the vote themselves that make it helpful. It's the responses that are important, like your and Kmd's little debate."
Ok, but it's only important if you take something from it. You really didn't.

This could be the sort of non-commital waffling behavior I agreed with above. But I don't think it's as strong. sort of null to me, but possibly the scum testing the waters.

Point Ten

"I'm not scummy. Someone else did it too!"

a) Hascow calls you out and you literally say, "Plum did the same thing as me five posts above the one you're voting me over..... So why are you voting for me, but made no such comment to Plum? Scummy." (The dot dot dot is to note that I removed some of the post because it's not relevant.) So. You can't be scum because Plum did the same thing. Not only that, but Hascow is scummy for thinking you are scummy. Textbook OMGUS. And your first actual suspicion of the game, so congrats on that. Want a milk bone? (Damn image tags. I can't get it to work.) "Unvote because I had only voted Destructor for pressure." I take back that milk bone. =/

b) You also throw in the little gem, "Hey look, I also see a bunch more people agreeing that Kmd isn't scummy for his vote...again...how come you haven't attacked them?"

I agree that "Someone else did it too" is not a defense, but it is important to point out where others are being inconsistent with their suspicions, so I don't blame Isacc for doing it. Except that it's not an explanation for why he did something.

Point Eleven

Extreme over defensiveness

a)We see this when Hascow votes you. You call his accusation "bull crap" and say it "pinged your scumdar like mad". You also toss out a "major FoS Has for a totally bull accusation and tunneling." which is hilarious because Hascow was far from tunneling.

b) Your post 19 is filled with caps, bold, profanity, and bad points. (Not that I have a problem with profanity. Just the way you used it looked over defensive.)

c)Not even gonna go into your response to my original suspicions again. Note that it's there though.

Strongly disagre with this one. Overdefensiveness is not a scum tell. In fact, I think it's scummy for a person to tell another person they're being overdefensive. So... this is actually scummy from kmd.

Point Twelve

Ordering Des to die

"You must not post in German ever again in the thread. Period. If you make another post in German, you will be lynched. Got it?" =/

I think I've said enough on why this is scummy. (earlier in the game)

"He claims he will die if he doesn't make any posts in German. This will tell us if he is lying."- Awesome. If he's modkilled, we know he's town. That's helpf....wait a second.

I agree Isacc's plan was bad and unhelpful, but overall I think it's null since I have seen Isacc make unhelpful plans as town.

OVERALL:

I think many of kmd's points are null on Isacc. Ones I didn't even list were ones I thought were null. I do however think Isacc's behavior toward darox was extremely suspicious, the FOSing and such. That's the strongest part of the whole thing, and for that alone I think Isacc is a good lynch candidate.

[elvis_knits]

@EK: Your analysis of the case is, admittedly, not really scummy, defying my expectations.

This made me lol...

So, anyway, I guess I should know this about you since I played with you once before, but, you prefer to FOS over vote until you feel "sure"?

Personally, I almost never FOS, so it seems weird to me.

[elvis_knits]

Oh look! I found something wonderful!! I knew I remembered being on Darox before the wagon!!! I'll keep all that stuff above, because it's true as well, but I think this is the important stuff.

Important Fact

You people who claim I didn't get on Darox until he was very surely a lynch candidate:

Page 21, Post 513:

Sly had only just been "lynched," Darox was not even voted yet, and Sly asks who the top 3 scum-candidates are for everyone.

Here, I list Darox as one of my highest suspects. Before the wagon...WAY before the wagon.

Page 23, Post 551:

Darox

still

hasn't been voted yet and it is

here

that I decide I'll make a PBPA on Darox. I apologize that it didn't come until much later, but I had no control over that. My suspicions on Darox began

long before the wagon

.


So...who still wants to claim I joined it all near to last? Yeah, so maybe I didn't

vote

Darox as early as you guys did. But I was on his trial from the get-go.

Expressing suspicions but not voting Darox is EXACTLY the way I would expect a bus to go down. You're trying to cover yourself for the future by expressing suspicion, but not actually voting guy, which might, you know, lead to your buddies death.

Isacc, I intend to vote you for your ties and behavior with Darox. Stop dithering around asking people if they want you to claim. You have the most votes. We're getting close to deadline. Obviously, you are the person that needs to claim. People haven't been moving their votes lately... and you just sitting there doing nothing is making it worse.

Isacc: claim or die.

[elvis_knits]

There are seven voting players in the game at this point. Three are voting you. If I vote you, that will be four, which is majority of the players who have a vote. It's possible that will lynch you.

[elvis_knits]

First of all, Isacc, the bulk of my suspicion on you is over my read of kmd's case, which you already said was a fair assessment. Also, whether you are town or scum, claiming was the right thing for you to do to advance the game, since deadline was coming and you had the most votes. It is very scummy that you held off this long when virtually nothing has changed for weeks.

On to the claim... Any type of depowered cop or doc claim is suspect in my book. I mean, sometimes it's real, but most of the time it's the safest type of power role to claim, because it's likely they will get counter claimed.

Even if we lynch you Isacc and you fliptown, you confirm Plum. Because I am pretty sure you were not blocked last night.

[elvis_knits]

WHAT? EK, are you seriously claiming my Doc claim is suspect? When is it ever a safe claim for scum to claim Doc? There's such a high chance of a counter-claim, I'd have to be retarded to find Doc a safe claim.

You claimed weak doc. That is different to me than claiming plain doc. I could see a scum claiming weak doc and then if there was another doc, says, well "I'm a weak doc, there's a difference."

I am honestly laughing at the fact that you are still trying to push for my lynch. Don't justify it by saying Plum will be confirmed, because then there's a guaranteed night kill from now on, making 1 confirmed town = target range.

I didn't say we had to kill you necessarily. I am still thinking about it as an option though, and I'm not just believing you right off the bat. You get all up in arms over everything I say, saying that I am tunneling. You are tunneling too. I'm just trying to think through the claim before I make up my mind. And I do think confirming Plum would be good. Plum won't necessarily die.

Also, EK has

still

deliberately ignored every accusation against her, that I've made.

Why aren't people noticing this?

I haven't been ignoring anything. What do you want me to answer? You've been saying that nobody has made a good case for you being Darox's buddy. This is a lie. See post 1081.

Also, EK complains that my lack of a claim was stagnating the game, however now that I have claimed, instead of proceeding to find scum suspects, she tunnels again and pushes for a doc lynch.

Someone tell me you see the problem with this!

Your refusal to claim WAS stagnating the game. Now that you've claimed we can think about your claim and also look at others. Both of which the town is doing. What are you complaining about? The game is moving again. I was right. You were wrong. Suck one.

[elvis_knits]

Alright, here is what consistently bothers me about some of the cases against me. Simply put: bussing is not a good scumtell. Here is why.

Someone has to join a wagon late. Someone has to be near the end votes of a wagon. Also, many times have people in games joined wagons of people who were near lynch, deciding they were a good enough lynch despite pushing for someone else during other parts of the day.

These things are equally available situations for town and scum. Not often do 7 players lynch someone on D1 where they all were openly and vocally suspicious of that person, and so very often do people (town and assuredly scum too) end up joining wagons in the same fashion as I did last day.

I don't agree with your assessment of what constitutes bussing. It's not just that "someone joined a wagon late," although that often is part of the bigger picture. To me, what constitutes bussing is: someone acting strangely in regards to a known scum. "Acting strangely" can mean several things, and it's not always the same from game to game, person to person. Situations are always different.

Some things that make me pick up on bussing: 1) Voting scum with a bad reason (to make it easier for their bud to wiggle free? Or because they think that when the bud is revealed scum, their reasons won't be looked at and they will look pro-town regardless). 2) FOSing your buddy while you vote someone else (trying to hedge your bets here so if your buddy is lynched you can say you were suspicious, but also trying to distract from his lynch and hopefully save him by voting a townie) Hint: Isacc FOSed Darox while voting others. 3) Jumping onto wagon late (Isacc also did this).

There are other things, of course, but those just came to mind first. My point is that bussing can mean a lot of things (anything that seems like odd behavior with known scum), and you have done many of them.

Bussing is not a provable event. It falls into the exact same category of "well, if he is scum..." Yes, if I were a scumbuddy with Darox, I would have been bussing. However, if I am town, then that is simply not true. There is no way of proving either event based purely on reading the vote-counts.

Don't even go there. Nothing is a provable event if you want to go there. This game is about picking up on behavior that does not seem like how a townie would act. Then you construct an argument and make your case. That's proof in this game. (Unless we're talking investigations, which we're not).

I, and others, are saying that your behavior toward Darox was not how a townie would act. It's how a buddy would act.

For these reasons, I do not understand how bussing can be used as your main tell. In my understanding, bussing as a term came about as an explanation of why scum would get rid of their partner.

You are still looking at this from a very simplistic POV. Looking for player's ties to Darox is a huge tool for us to use. Some people even look for buddies before lynching scum. Personally, I think there's too much WIFOM for that to be useful, but after lynching scum? Looking for ties is VERY important.

Do you disagree?

Bussing should be presented as an explanation for why an already scummy person voted a person who flipped scum. Why? Because it's speculative. It should not be used to prove that someone

is

scummy because no one knows whether or not I was actually bussing.

Everything in this game is speculative. I don't understand the problem here...

The rest of your post was more of the same... I think I've answered why your argument doesn't make sense. It's like you're saying "bussing" can't ever be used as an argument because we won't know for sure until we lynch you. But everything in this game is like that. We don't know for sure until roles are revealed.

[elvis_knits]

Isacc: how the hell do you expect me to scum hunt when I am making multiple posts per real life day answering you? You are causing this huge argument with me and saying I'm ignoring you, and when I try to address you more fully, you say I am tunnelling on you and am not scum hunting. You are just determined to say everything I do is horrible, no matter what. Why don't you post in bold some more and maybe people will believe you.

In terms of alternate lynches... if we don't lynch Isacc, then we don't lynch Plum. I guess my front runner after that is caf since caf has done almost nothing except sell lemonade.

Since deadline is coming:

unvote; vote caf

[elvis_knits]

EK, your vote is still on Plum, and has remained there throughout your pushing for Isacc to "claim or die" and his subsequent claim and supposed clearing of Plum. Please explain why your vote is still there.

My vote was still there because I thought if I voted Isacc, Isacc might get lynched, and then no more discussion. So I held off. My vote remained there until I decided who deserved it now: you.

[elvis_knits]

Elvis, vy is it zat joo did not answer my kveschon?

Sly, can joo explain vy imaginiality vos won ov joor top sospekts?

imaginality, joo are still votink Iyzak. Do joo still vant to lynch him? If not, vich of elvis or caf vud joo support ze lynching of?

caf, I do not know who it is joo vant to lynch now zat joo hav unvoted Iyzak. Vat are joo tinkink?

I didn't realize you asked me a question... I tend to gloss over you because it takes me longer to figure out what the hell you're saying with the accent.

I'll go sift through I guess...

[elvis_knits]

I think this is what you mean:

Expressing suspicions but not voting Darox is EXACTLY the way I would expect a bus to go down. You're trying to cover yourself for the future by expressing suspicion, but not actually voting guy, which might, you know, lead to your buddies death.

Is it not zat joo sed joo

know

zat Iyzak is kareful viz his votes? Vy iz it zat it iz a schomtell this time?

I don't think I ever said that Isacc is careful with his votes. Isacc said that as his defense, and I questioned him about it. I'm not really sure it's true. I've played with Isacc before, and I don't remember noticing this. I haven't had time to look back at the game, but I don't remember it.

[elvis_knits]

Here's my thought:

I would like EK and Imaginality and Caf (in fairness, seeing as he seems to be the other prime suspect) to post reasons for why they should be kept alive instead of the other two. Each of you please post what reasons you find yourself to be more pro-town than the others.

Among other things, I was onto Darox from the get-go and voted him throughout even when he was even with Des.

Whoever has the most votes should claim soon in case we need to switch wagons again. If it's me, I'll claim whenever. I'll claim tomorrow morning if I have the most votes. Speak up if you think there should be another plan...

[elvis_knits]

I am Don Quixote. I am trying to find my lady love. Each night I can check one person to see if they're my lady love. Last night I checked Glork (now Des) and got no response (Mirth couldn't tell me anything, although she said my choice was received). Which leads me to believe I was blocked last night. You might remember I hinted to this before after Isacc claimed and said Plum is town unless he was blocked. Well, I doubt he was blocked since I am assuming I was. Also, I hinted Day 1 that I was looking for something.

Also, role doesn't say what happens when I find my lady love. I don't know if we become masons or what happens. But I can't win until I find my lady love.

[elvis_knits]

My PM says I will be told when I find my lady love.

Last night though I was told specifically that my action did not go through. It didn't say I was blocked specifically, but that my action did not go through.

[elvis_knits]

If elvis and caf are boz town, I am tinkink zat ze schomz hav to be {Sly, hascow} or {imaginality, hascow}.

I don't think sly is scum anymore. He's been one of the more townish people today, I think. I don't know about the rest, but I'm not hot for slyscum anymore.

[elvis_knits]

I don't know. I don't think his behavior really implicates anyone or excludes anyone. I think caf was trying to skate through the game by not doing much, not pissing too many people off. But in truth he wasn't helping, and was mostly just trying to sell lemonade.

[elvis_knits]

It's this one:

(b) you vin viv town but only if you haf found your lover

I never read Don Quixote. If my lady love doesn't exist, then I can't win. This is possible given the bastard mod game. I'm still hoping it's possible for me to win... but given Mirth's evilness, I don't know.

[elvis_knits]

HAI

[elvis_knits]

SO I hope my lady love lets me know who she/he is...

If nobody lets me know, I guess they're mafia or they don't exist.

[elvis_knits]

elvis - search [plum] plum is blocked, action doesn't go through.

Is this normal that a block on another player stops my action because I target them? Because that effectively blocks me...

Like if a cop investigates player a and player a is blocked, the cop still gets an investigation, right?