Mini 733- Congratulations! You are... Mafia (Game Over)

[Plum]

If I recall, before he died Des made an argument against against Glork, saying that he wasn't playing to his town meta. Des has died and flipped town, leading me to wonder whether that accusation is strong or not (by-the-by, I have heard that in general Town!Glork is an excellent scumhunter).Before I go wading through Glork's meta, does anyone have an informed opinion on the subject, and how strong a tell early lesser scumhunting from Glork actually is?

Now, I have a more important case. I think I has found scum numero dos.

As most of you ought to know, EK has been pinging my scumdar since Day 1. Her actions have been a little off here or there, as I have pointed out before. Also, now I am noticing a suspiciously similar playstyle to another game where she has recently flipped scum. Meta is making me worry.

I, too, have not forgotten my case on EK from yesterday. The pounce on a weakening SlySly by calling out a scumslip which was in fact nothing of the sort looked pretty bad from my point-of-view. Additionally, that accusation against Hascow still looks weird and potentially scummy, to be honest.

Synopsis: EK has been acting pretty strangely, and there is several things that strike me as being off. A bit suspicious of her, but mostly confused.

Odd post (stupid 20/20 hindsight is seeing red over Darox's PBPA post, that he either called players solid or was wary. No strong stances on someone looking suspicious. Meh).

Isacc, can you elaborate on EK's scum-meta-playstyle-thing you mentioned? The other thing you mentioned . . . I've often used similar logic in my own mind, but to be honest it's very hard to determine if what you believe is the 'logical conclusion' is really what happened. Too many other variables.

[Isacc]

Kmd: Whatever, you had no case yesterday, and you have none today. You've also ignored every action I had D1 except the one tiny one you're still voting me over. You're an idiot.

[Mirth]

Votecount

Glork - 9 - [Sly]
Isacc - 0 - [Kmd]
Sly - 2 - [Elvis]
Elvis - 1 - [Isacc]

Not Voting - 0 - [Glork, Plum, Imaginality, Hascow, Caf]

[SlySly]

Isacc, thesame logoic works on you tioo. Im leavin my vrote.

Same logic would work against cow too. Remember Darox's awesome review of cow.

I am suspicious of EK and Glork too.

Glork early had been all over Darox insisting he was the best lynch only later to state how bad the Darox lynch was.

[Isacc]

Plum: Well, here's my whole "scum-meta" thing. My friend who got me onto the game originally claims that EK is usually pretty darn aggressive. However, in both this game and my second most recent game (the one from which she cited my other "plan," which had no relevance) in WoT mafia, she acted particularly similar to this one. Aggressive-ish once in awhile, so as not to be a lurker, but not really pushing hard on anyone, and overall pretty calm.

Normally, I wouldn't take this meta so strongly. But given that she was already a large suspect in my mind, and I see this, and Darox flipped scum, that's what I think is likely.

[elvis_knits]

As most of you ought to know, EK has been pinging my scumdar since Day 1. Her actions have been a little off here or there, as I have pointed out before. Also, now I am noticing a suspiciously similar playstyle to another game where she has recently flipped scum. Meta is making me worry.

What is the similarity here?

Oh I see you just said I'm not aggressive enough from what a friend told you?? Maybe you should look at some other games if you really want a meta, and not rely on what some unnamed person's impression is of me.

But here's a more interesting thing to note. Darox was scum, and prior to his lynch, I asked for his top three targets. He named, Destructor, myself, and Elvis_Knits.

This is interesting to me, as two of the three are confirmed town (at least to me...those two being Dest and myself of course).

The other, however, was already pretty suspicious in my eyes. So here's what I see: a scum going down would love to accuse a scumbuddy just before his fall, just so that people might loosen up on them after he flipped. So, if two of the three are town, but the other is suspicious...I say EK is probably another scum.

Have you heard of WIFOM? I'm not goint to assume that you're scum for the same reasoning because I think it's a very weak reason. I think interaction is much more important when we look for darox's scum buddies.

Also, I think we should try to lynch Sly again today. If we can't, we go for someone else.

[SlySly]

Also, I think we should try to lynch Sly again today. If we can't, we go for someone else.

Do you think everyone didn't hear you the first time?

[elvis_knits]

I was concerned the message wasn't sinking in.

What are you worried about if you can't be lynched?

[Kmd4390]

Kmd: Whatever, you had no case yesterday, and you have none today. You've also ignored every action I had D1 except the one tiny one you're still voting me over. You're an idiot.

K.

Isacc Case

Point One

-

Stays in random phase as long as possible

-

Yes, I know the game didn't get truly serious for quite a while. But read Isacc's first 8 posts. Not a serious point to be found. There's a jokevote on Caf, some superhero arguing with Daroxscum, and calling Imaginality's vote unfair.

First post with content starts, "Ummm lot's to respond to I guess...". Yeah, well, when you lock a dog in a room with 3 year old steaks, the shit is gonna pile up.

Bottom line, there was a lot of useless stuff going on which is great for scum. They can post without adding anything and no one questions them for it. Well, consider yourself questioned, scum.

Point Two

-

"Admitting" points

Same post, "Yes Caf, you are well to point out I haven't done much yet. I admit, I was a little lost by the randomness of it all for awhile, and hadn't quite caught up."- Admitting it doesn't make it any less true. This is an excellent way for scum to try and lessen points brought up on them. They can say, "Yes, I lurked", "Yes, I lied", "Yes, I fucked up", but the truth is admitting it doesn't mean it never happened. It just means you are defending it differently. This point can still be used even if you admit it's true.

Point Three

Bad Excuse

Also, "I was waiting for Imaginality's explanation of his vote, but I think i just figured it out."- This was your excuse for staying random. You were waiting for him to explain. What? Do you get random and joke around when a game is in LYLO and everyone is waiting for a player to respond? I don't. You could have done more while you waited.

Points Four and Five

Non-Committal statements to create wiggle room/contradiction

a.)"As for the lemonade, I don't find it scummy yet, but I am still a little put-off by it."
First, you don't find it scummy "yet". So your opinion can change when everyone else's does? Sure, Caf may do something scummy later, but you are addressing lemonade specifically. There is no specific lean on it. Second, define "put-off" on something you admit you "don't find scummy". Seems like a contradiction to me.

(If Charter was in this game, he'd call you out on a scum slip because the only way to be "put-off" by something you "don't find scummy" is if you are scum worried about a power role. I rarely believe in slips though, so I see this more as trying to be able to take either side later.)

edit: I think you meant you didn't find it scummy (yet) that Sly bought the lemonade, not that Caf was selling it. Point still stands, but I think I misread who you were talking about.

b/c)You were also non-committal in calling Darox "odd" and calling dahill "ridiculous". I elaborate on those later.

d)"In other news, Sly your comments about foreign languages seems kinda anti-town." anti-town? Not scummy? Looking through that post (15 under your posts in isolation), I see nothing that shows whether you think Sly is scum for this or not.

e)"Alright, while the whole SlySly issue is very interesting, I would rather address a matter I feel I can get a definite read on for now, so as to whether or not his claim seems legit, I am holding off on deciding." translates to "We had a roleclaim, but I'm not gonna look at it yet."

Point Six

Making your voice heard without really saying anything

"I agree that we should wait til day 2 to see what happens to the lemonade drinker."- Well...yeah. Unless you get inside info from the Mod, that's what is going to happen. Or we could have lynched him, but specifically over buying lemonade? No. That would have been a terrible move. So you basically said nothing except the obvious with this line.

Point Seven

Distancing from Darox

a) "Darox is odd to me. While it seems his "who would win" scenarios are probably a role related thing, that doesn't explain why he voted Glork for it. Seems a bit strange to still be random voting at this point. small FoS until we get an explanation on that."

Your first suspicion of the game. Well, first real suspicion. (You joke voted Caf.) And you don't even specifically call him scummy. This is as small a suspicion as you can get. You call him "odd" and you even FoS. But wait. Not just FoS, but a "small FoS". Was there really a purpose in this? If you are town, I don't see one. If you are scum with Darox, I call distancing. (Note that the FoS was "removed" just 2 posts later)

b)Another FoS after Darox doesn't justify his vote.

c) "@Sly: As to who I find scummy, let's see...
Darox continues to frustrate me. He rarely posts anything original, and his content is more often the "Who would win" than anything else at all. The only time I think I see him making an actual argument is against SlySly."- Still haven't voted Darox AT ALL, but you HAVE FoS'd twice.

d)"I think, in light of Darox, I am going to do a PBPA to see if my memory is correct. I'll post it later."- You avoided this until I asked about it.

e) You finally vote Darox when it's clear he's our most likely lynch. Sets you up to say you look more townie for voting him. After that, you finally bring forward that PBPA and push hard for the lynch. And this late push makes you look pretty obsessed with getting Darox lynched. After just a few FoS's and small jabs before. Smells like classic bussing to me.

Point Eight

Lack of Solid stance on early Dahill vs. Kmd

First, you only comment because you feel you have to, shown here: "the length of this tiny squabble has made me realize I am going to be obligated to take some position or side, or at least provide commentary."

Next, you say dahill is over reacting to it. Ok, you take a side. But you fail to correlate it to an alignment of either player. You FoS dahill and leave it at that. And the FoS isn't even for being scummy. It's for being, " for being, frankly, ridiculous."

"Why is it weird to you that a person explains their actions as they do them? How in the world does that make it scummy? I'm reading it totally right, and I maintain you have no case, your argument holds no water, and you're voting for nothing."
You are quite clearly disagreeing with dahill here and "taking my side", but again, nothing about an alignment on either player. No suspicions or even bad vibes yet.

"Dahill, I will start by saying you have defended yourself well, and my worries towards you have lessened significantly. That said, there are still some parts of your argument I disagree with."
Now you are acting like you had previously been calling dahill scum. You weren't. And still no suspicions at this point in the game. On anyone.

"I think a scum and town are both likely to want to explain their actions the way Kmd did."
Good to know. But no mention of which is MORE likely in THIS situation.

"it's not the vote themselves that make it helpful. It's the responses that are important, like your and Kmd's little debate."
Ok, but it's only important if you take something from it. You really didn't.

Point Nine

Fear of voting?

a)Well, you jokevoted and unvoted with no vote attached.

b)You commented on lemonade with no vote.

c)There's the Darox issue where you FoS, you never voted.

d)You FoS'd dahill.

e)"I might vote you, except I have not decided who exactly seems the most suspicious yet." to Hascow.

f)You are asked for suspicions while you are not voting anyone. You mention Darox first. You mention EK and actually bring good points. And you say Sly bothers you, but not enough for a lynch. I'd have expected a vote on EK. But again, no vote.

And later, "Fos: Elvis_Knits with a vote possibly coming after I do my PBPA on Darox"

g) While voting Sly "to test a theory", "Glork, EK, and Kmd are scum."

Why the fear of voting? (Your Post number 26 where you vote Des if your first serious vote of the game)

Point Ten

"I'm not scummy. Someone else did it too!"

a) Hascow calls you out and you literally say, "Plum did the same thing as me five posts above the one you're voting me over..... So why are you voting for me, but made no such comment to Plum? Scummy." (The dot dot dot is to note that I removed some of the post because it's not relevant.) So. You can't be scum because Plum did the same thing. Not only that, but Hascow is scummy for thinking you are scummy. Textbook OMGUS. And your first actual suspicion of the game, so congrats on that. Want a milk bone? (Damn image tags. I can't get it to work.) "Unvote because I had only voted Destructor for pressure." I take back that milk bone. =/

b) You also throw in the little gem, "Hey look, I also see a bunch more people agreeing that Kmd isn't scummy for his vote...again...how come you haven't attacked them?"

Point Eleven

Extreme over defensiveness

a)We see this when Hascow votes you. You call his accusation "bull crap" and say it "pinged your scumdar like mad". You also toss out a "major FoS Has for a totally bull accusation and tunneling." which is hilarious because Hascow was far from tunneling.

b) Your post 19 is filled with caps, bold, profanity, and bad points. (Not that I have a problem with profanity. Just the way you used it looked over defensive.)

c)Not even gonna go into your response to my original suspicions again. Note that it's there though.

Point Twelve

Ordering Des to die

"You must not post in German ever again in the thread. Period. If you make another post in German, you will be lynched. Got it?" =/

I think I've said enough on why this is scummy. (earlier in the game)

"He claims he will die if he doesn't make any posts in German. This will tell us if he is lying."- Awesome. If he's modkilled, we know he's town. That's helpf....wait a second.

Point Thirteen

Explanation for Point Twelve

"Alright, well, my gambit failed...I didn't expect to push it till he was modkilled."

I've already said I don't buy it. You tried to get a free kill on a town aligned player, and when it wasn't going to happen, you passed it off as a Gambit.

[Plum]

I'll be V/LA until Sunday afternoon EST. Sorry about any inconvenience.

noted

[Glork]

Hokay, I have had a day or so to think aobout vot hazh happened, and I believe zat Plomzh is ze scomzh.

I vos thinkink, assumink a three-person scomzhgroup, one of Darox's scomzhboddeez probably tried to stave off ze Darox leench vonce ze shit began to hit ze fan. First I looked at ze day-end vote kount. Two people (ozer zan Darox) vere voting for Dezh instead, and I vos of korse supporting a Dezh leench. Hazhkow vos not votink for anybody. I would not be surprised if vone of Darox's scomzhboddez leenched him, bot I do think that lookink at zese four players vos a good place to start.

Plom'zh play in partikular interests me. First, this post:

I was asked about Glork vs. Des.

As far as policy lynching Glork, I actually do see Des's point. I was against the idea until I thought up a hypothetical scenario. Glork being alive at LYLO hurts us more than lynching Glork hurts us. And that's if he's town. If he's scum, that's even more reason to lynch him.

As far as Des, he seems pretty protown IMO.

I honestly think both are town and Glork is a policy lynch at most.

What about Des asking for a claim from Glork earlier today? Still protown?

After KMD veighed in on ze Dezh/Glork thing, she point-blank asked him at anozer angle. It seems to me zat she vos klearly fishink for any way to get somebody (in zis kase, KMD) to jump on Dezh. At zat point, Darox has 4 votes, Dezh had 2. KMD vood make three, and Darox vood obviously svitch to Dezh, making both vagons 4 votes.

Zen, after EK said I don't think we can get a des lynch together before deadline, Plomzh lobbied for EK to veigh in on Dezh again. I really think zat Plomzh vos again lookink for somebody to shift to Dezh so zat he vood bekom ze deadline leench.

Hazkow:

I have a homevork assinment for joo. Even zo joo kant post today, I am not goink to let joo off ze hook. Using ze notes fonktion on zis site (or notepad, or votever joo vont, really), I vont joo to take notes on ze ENTIRE day as it happens. Every time joo see an interesting post/point, argument, or anything zat stiks out to joo, I vont joo to note ze post nomber, and write a sentence (or more) on it. Vonce joo are able to talk again, I vont joo to post ze ENTIRE set of notes in full. If joo are protownzh, a largely objective, stream-of-konsciosness, comprehensive analysis kan be a huge blessink in disgize. If joo DON'T post this tomorrow, I am goink to throttle joo. Joo have no excuse not to do zis, konsiderink joo shood be followink ze game anyvay. Thanks in advance.

[Glork]

Glork early had been all over Darox insisting he was the best lynch only later to state how bad the Darox lynch was.

I looked back on ven I kolled Dezh and Darox obvscomzh, and I honestly have no idea where I got ze Darox-obvscomzh feelink. My alarm at Darox later vos becoz I saw him get 4 votes in somesing like 17 pozhts, vich olmost olvays makes me nervous.

[Kmd4390]

Hazkow:

I have a homevork assinment for joo. Even zo joo kant post today, I am not goink to let joo off ze hook. Using ze notes fonktion on zis site (or notepad, or votever joo vont, really), I vont joo to take notes on ze ENTIRE day as it happens. Every time joo see an interesting post/point, argument, or anything zat stiks out to joo, I vont joo to note ze post nomber, and write a sentence (or more) on it. Vonce joo are able to talk again, I vont joo to post ze ENTIRE set of notes in full. If joo are protownzh, a largely objective, stream-of-konsciosness, comprehensive analysis kan be a huge blessink in disgize. If joo DON'T post this tomorrow, I am goink to throttle joo. Joo have no excuse not to do zis, konsiderink joo shood be followink ze game anyvay. Thanks in advance.

I agree with this. No reason not to do it.

[Plum]

Zen, after EK said I don't think we can get a des lynch together before deadline, Plomzh lobbied for EK to veigh in on Dezh again. I really think zat Plomzh vos again lookink for somebody to shift to Dezh so zat he vood bekom ze deadline leench.

I'll respond to this right away because I happen to clearly remember why I did it: EK's phrasing seemed to suggest that EK might prefer a Des lynch if there was any chance it was possible. I wanted EK to confirm or reject that interpretation, which was the first one that occured to me, so that we could have a clearer general understanding of all players' positions on Des and Darox as we approached a lynch influenced partly by the deadline.

Regarding my question to Kmd: I had made a case on Des and thought it to be a good one. One of my major beefs with Des was the call for you, Glork, to claim prematurely. Kmd, when asked to weigh in on the subject, answered only about Des' call for you, Glork, to be policy lynched, and after addressing that as he saw it, declared that Des looked pretty pro-town to him. Seeing as he didn't address a major concern I had with Des, I wanted him to weigh in on what he thought about it, and why he thought Des looked pro-town despite it.

Basically, overall I was aiming for thoroughness and the best clarification of players positions on facets of the cases and viable wagons.

I'll third the call for Hascow to take notes to present tomorrow. It can only do good.

[SlySly]

I was concerned the message wasn't sinking in.

What are you worried about if you can't be lynched?

I'm not worried. It seems to me that you are willing to waste the town's time again today, though. That seems scummy to me. Though I would prefer to lynch cow, if you keep pushing this issue when others seem to think there are more important avenues to explore, I will be moving my vote to you.

Glork could be a pro-town vig that killed Des. So, I will...

unvote

[elvis_knits]

Darox wagon analysis! Here you can see how the Darox wagon built, who voted then unvoted and such.


Darox wagon built quickly. I think these votes came in like a page:

Votecount

darox - badger -[imaginality, elvis, des, sly]
elvis - badger - [Plum, Isacc]
Sly - badger - [Darox]
Kmd - badger - [Dahill]
Isacc - badger - [Kmd]
PJ - badger - [Glork]

Not Voting - mushroom - [Caf, cow]

Change from last VC to next is that Sly unvoted darox, and KMD votes him.

Votecount

darox - mary -[imaginality, elvis, des, kmd]
elvis - had - [Plum, Isacc]
Kmd - a - [Dahill]
des - little - [sly]
PJ - lamb - [Glork]

Not Voting - baaaaaaaaaaaaaa - [Caf, cow, Darox]

Change from last to next is kmd unvotes him.

Votecount

darox - 87329572 -[imaginality, elvis, des]
elvis - potato - [Plum, Isacc]
Kmd - 3587297529830918353 - [Dahill]
des - 1 - [sly]
Isaac - 208420 - [kmd]
PJ - 1837593 - [Glork]

Not Voting - 3 - [Caf, cow, Darox]

Change = Isaac adds his vote to Darox

Votecount

darox - b -[imaginality, elvis, des, Isacc]
Kmd - i - [Dahill]
des - n - [sly, Plum]
Isaac - g - [kmd]
PJ - o - [Glork]

Not Voting - g5 - [Caf, cow, Darox]

Change from last to next = kmd revotes darox

Votecount

darox - you -[imaginality, elvis, des, Isacc, kmd]
Kmd - have - [Dahill]
des - about - [sly, Plum]
PJ - 28 hours - [Glork]

Not Voting - 45 mins- [Caf, cow, Darox]

Change = caf and dahill vote darox.

Votecount

darox - finally -[imaginality, elvis, des, Isacc, kmd, caf, dahill]

des - this - [sly, Plum, Darox]
PJ - god forsaken day - [Glork]

Not Voting - is over- [cow, ]

SO this wagon is pretty interesting because it builds quickly, partly because of a looming deadline, I think. kmd's vote and unvote, and revote of darox looks suspicious to me. The first vote came close to the first deadline, which makes me think it could have been a last resort kind of vote to make sure you get on the scum buddies wagon. Although, at the time, I had two votes on me, and if kmd voted me, I would be tied with darox. darox would have still been lynched because he reached three first, unless kmd could get someone else to vote for me. In addition, isacc and caf are suspicious to me because they are late in joining the darox wagon.

There was always a rival bandwagon to darox, which makes it very interesting to note which wagon people chose. First I was rival bandwagon to darox, and then des was the rival wagon. Plum was on both these rival wagons. Both rival wagons were close to succeeding and overtaking the darox wagon. Plum was looking anywhere for a lynch but at Darox.

[Isacc]

Kmd, you has no brain. Let me counter your bad logic point by point.

1: I stayed in the random phase as long as possible? WTF? That could be said about EVERYONE in game, seeing as it lasted til nearly page 8!

2: Yes, admitting points doesn't mean they didn't happen. However, admitting points is also NOT a scumtell. Actually, what would have been scummier is if I had lied about it. However, you are saying something I did was actually a scum move done in order to look town? Wifom much?

3: That wasn't an "excuse" for anything. You clearly have no idea what I was referring to. When I said I had been waiting for Imaginality's explanation, it was because he voted me after quoting someone else. Then I realized he was testing the "let's put a vote on everyone" theory so I said "Oh nvm Imaginality, I understand now." That wasn't an excuse for anything.

4a: Or, you know, it means I was wary to trust buying lemonade, but I didn't think it was automatically a scumtell, which was what people were calling it at that time.

4b/c: addressed later, I guess.

4d: There is a difference between acting anti-town and acting scummy. Being a retard is anti-town. However, it doesn't make you scum. If you don't realize the difference between anti-town and scummy, you need to go back to newbie games.

4e: No, it doesn't translate to that. It translates to, "I want to see Sly's interactions still, so I'm going to pursue a different case which was interesting to me."

6: Not a scumtell. Not really any tell. Not really...anything...

7: Ok, you are trying to manipulate the meaning of my words. "Odd" meant it is bothering me, sorry that I didn't use a word you felt more in tune with "scummy." So I small FoSed him, gave him a chance to explain his vote, because maybe he had a good case.

Then, I FoSed because he never made a case. Seems pretty damn reasonable.

You complain that I didn't vote Darox? BFD. I don't think I am obligated to vote for every scumtell ever.

No, I didn't avoid the PBPA. I was freaking V/LA.

And NO I definitely did NOT vote Darox when he was our most likely lynch. In fact, I'm pretty damn certain I voted Darox about the time everyone was switching away from him in favor of Destructor.

8: To your "first," so?

Ok, the rest of this point is a boldfaced lie. I am noticing a pattern. You keep claiming that I am NOT suspicious of people I FoS. Do you know what the S stands for in FoS? I WAS suspicious of Dahill, don't try and claim I wasn't.

"Now you are acting like you had previously been calling dahill scum. You weren't. And still no suspicions at this point in the game. On anyone."
-Lie

"Ok, but it's only important if you take something from it. You really didn't."
-Yep, I did. I took from it that I find Dahill town, and you an idiot.

9: A vote is used for two purposes in my mind. Number 1, I am comfortable lynching the person. Number 2, I am demanding they address an issue. In all the situations you are referencing, neither of these held true. Therefore, I had no reason for a vote.

10: I wasn't saying that because others did it, it wasn't scummy. You are totally misrepping. I was saying that it was weird that Hascow singled me out. I did not at all say anything like what you are claiming. I do admit the OMGUS was my bad, and it was a common trend in all my games. However, you may note I have (since Hascow and I discussed it) stop assuming anyone voting me is scum.

11: That is how I roll. Or how I rolled. Either way, not really a tell unless you fail at meta.

12: I wasn't gonna make him die. But I won't get into why your logic is circular again.

13: Lulz.


So, your whole case fails. Here's a question. Earlier you "voted me for same reasons as yesterday." Yesterday, your reasons were only my gambit, and today you have a "case." Why wasn't that there yesterday?

[Isacc]

EK: I am not relying purely on some "unnamed person"s knowledge of you. Look at other games? Ok, I did. The one I just mentioned.

Next, I have a specific reference who tells me that as town you act differently than you are now. And it's not his "impression" of you, it's actually by your words that you apparently act different as a townie. Sorry, but if that's not good enough for

you

that really doesn't matter much.

And yes, interactions are important. Which is why I still find you scummy the way I did D1. It's just, the meta + Darox's final words makes me think there are too many coincidences to be a coincidence.

[elvis_knits]

Zen, after EK said I don't think we can get a des lynch together before deadline, Plomzh lobbied for EK to veigh in on Dezh again. I really think zat Plomzh vos again lookink for somebody to shift to Dezh so zat he vood bekom ze deadline leench.

I'll respond to this right away because I happen to clearly remember why I did it: EK's phrasing seemed to suggest that EK might prefer a Des lynch if there was any chance it was possible. I wanted EK to confirm or reject that interpretation, which was the first one that occured to me, so that we could have a clearer general understanding of all players' positions on Des and Darox as we approached a lynch influenced partly by the deadline.

I see plum's away for a few days. When she gets back I would like to know what Plum's conclusions are about me and what I said about des vs. darox lynch from yesterday.

[elvis_knits]

EK: I am not relying purely on some "unnamed person"s knowledge of you. Look at other games? Ok, I did. The one I just mentioned.

Comparing to one game where I was scum is not building a meta of me. Look at a game where I was town, then comment.

Next, I have a specific reference who tells me that as town you act differently than you are now. And it's not his "impression" of you, it's actually by your words that you apparently act different as a townie. Sorry, but if that's not good enough for

you

that really doesn't matter much.

Why are all these people talking about me behind my back

Please be more specific, because I don't know what you're talking about now. What are you saying that some specific refernce says that I said about myself?

[Isacc]

EK: I have been told that you told a person you like to be very aggressive as town, and even more aggressive as Vanilla townie. However, since I haven't seen you be any more aggressive than WoT (where you really weren't) I see a pattern.

And all this does not erase the fact that you have been suspicious in other ways this game, meta aside.

[caf19]

In addition, isacc and caf are suspicious to me because they are late in joining the darox wagon.

Eh, I was actually on Darox's case for quite a lot of D1 (or as much of 'on his case' as I could be without him answering most of my questions). The reason I didn't vote, as I said at the time, is that I hadn't sold enough lemonade and I didn't want to end the day without this having happened. After the lemonade got bought, I made a couple of other small posts, announced my intention to vote, then voted.

Anyway, I wasn't quite sure who to start with today, as my sights had been set on Darox for most of yesterday. So I analysed the formation of the Darox lynch a bit. My thoughts are this: it formed in a hurried fashion shortly before the first deadline. Then it just sort of hung around in various forms for a week, with attempts to change it being unenthusiastic or unsuccessful. This is commonly how wagons on townies go, with the scum happy not to rock the boat and just leave the wagon 'lying around' until it becomes the only choice. However, Darox was scum - and to that effect you'd expect the other scums at least to try to unsettle it. When the deadline got extended, I'd expect to see scum saying 'oh, we don't have to lynch Darox any more, let's go lynch this guy instead' or something similar. Players who do (or don't do) this:

- Kmd immediately switches back to Isacc when the deadline moves. This does make sense within his play as a whole, and he doesn't push for everyone else to change their vote over, so this is fairly excusable - but still, his "Darox is finally starting to be helpful" line seems rather implausible and it was the most rapid switch away from Darox. A minor mark against Kmd, I'd say. Kmd makes my scumlist but he'd be fairly low down on it; one to come back to later, imo.

- Glork vocally opposed Darox's lynch and supported a des lynch. That's not great, but he was consistent in doing this before and after the deadline extension, and also at the end of the day when Darox obviously going down. Glork doesn't look especially scummy to me.

- SlySly starts pushing pretty hard for the viewpoint that Darox is town - a U-turn from voting Darox a few posts before. He actually switches before the deadline is extended, which I don't quite understand, but maybe he just assumed the extension was going to come. He continues not to be on board with the Darox lynch...

The play of a few has given me a hunch that Darox is town and they are scum.

...until the last few hours when his posts start to be of the "oh hai, maybe Darox is scum after all" tone.

Darox, why can't you be using the time you are using to respond to each of these posts to finish your analysis? That would be the protown thing to do. Your refusal to do so is looking extremely anti-town, bordering on scummy.

Though I have a stinking suspicion that Darox is town, my support for the Darox wagon is growing.

It does look a lot like scumbuddy behaviour, and tbh I wouldn't be against trying to lynch Sly again. (once some lemonade gets bought, anyway)

- Although EK says Isacc is late to join the wagon, he actually did so on the 16th (with all of the extra week to go). He didn't wait around or make any posts trying to get someone else lynched after the extension hit. Isacc might have done bad things in the game, but this isn't one of them.

- Plum is another interesting one: post 779 she makes a huge case culminating in a vote for des. This case seems to be made from the assumption that Darox is town; players are analysed in relation to how scummy their vote on Darox is perceived to be. EK is criticised for her attack on Darox:

On the other hand, interestingly, immediately before this she notes Darox as scummy for 'his unexplained pile-on vote on kmd'. Not totally - as the case progressed Darox expressed sentiments that Kmd was being more self-contradictory than a compulsive liar, from which one may deduce that he saw the 'Kmd's responses are becoming scummy and contradictory' side of the debate

and des's push for a Darox lynch is brought up again and again.

Des notes Darox's 'opportunistic' vote on Kmd early and also notes Darox's overall lack of contribution as reason for his vote and ends his long post by saying that 'I think Darox needs to die'. Bit strong for that amount of proof, but I'll deal. In a subsequent post Des says that ' I think the only good wagons today are on Darox or imaginality'. Interesting.

Des continues to push for the Darox lynch afterwards, citing, of all things, a quote of his in which he attacks Glork for 'giving Darox lip service' on his lack of contributions. Huh? Did I miss something here?

(there's more in the post itself)

Plum deliberately refrains from analysing Darox. The only part of her post that directly addresses him is this:

The Darox reread - the part he's been able to post thus far. Does it make him less scummy? Yes and no, unfortunately. He's at least breaking out of the 'little contributions made' mold, which is good. Does turning over a new leaf make a towntell? Not really. Decent scumhunting, if that's what this turns out to be, would, however.

Odd thing I notice in his analysis of Caf is that his semi?-defense for an accusation that he voted Sly with little case to back him up is that 'One would think placing a vote is a pretty good way of saying "Yep, I think this guy is scummy"'.

So he's neither scummy nor innocent? Well, that's a good way to avoid giving an opinion entirely. At that stage of the game figuring out whether or not to lynch Darox was vital, and Plum avoided the question entirely in favour of judging other players on an implicit assumption that Darox is town. For the record, Plum doesn't clarify her position on Darox in other posts, until post 845 (about a day before the deadline), where she suddenly becomes receptive to it. That looks like buddy behaviour to me, pushing for other lynches until it becomes clear they won't happen, then turning round and sending him to the grave.

tl;dr: SlySly and Plum are suspicious.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd, you has no brain. Let me counter your bad logic point by point.

Calling it bad logic doesn't make you right and me wrong.

1: I stayed in the random phase as long as possible? WTF? That could be said about EVERYONE in game, seeing as it lasted til nearly page 8!

You did nothing to even TRY to get us out of the RVS.

2: Yes, admitting points doesn't mean they didn't happen. However, admitting points is also NOT a scumtell. Actually, what would have been scummier is if I had lied about it. However, you are saying something I did was actually a scum move done in order to look town? Wifom much?

No. I'm saying admitting it doesn't make it any less true.

3: That wasn't an "excuse" for anything. You clearly have no idea what I was referring to. When I said I had been waiting for Imaginality's explanation, it was because he voted me after quoting someone else. Then I realized he was testing the "let's put a vote on everyone" theory so I said "Oh nvm Imaginality, I understand now." That wasn't an excuse for anything.

You did nothing while you waited for the explanation. You said you were waiting for it.

4a: Or, you know, it means I was wary to trust buying lemonade, but I didn't think it was automatically a scumtell, which was what people were calling it at that time.

Why were you wary if it wasn't a scumtell? You avoided the point on this one.

4d: There is a difference between acting anti-town and acting scummy. Being a retard is anti-town. However, it doesn't make you scum. If you don't realize the difference between anti-town and scummy, you need to go back to newbie games.

That's exactly my point. You called him anti-town, but why? You said nothing to relate to alignment. And I'll take up your offer on that Newbie game. I'll IC and teach you the game.

4e: No, it doesn't translate to that. It translates to, "I want to see Sly's interactions still, so I'm going to pursue a different case which was interesting to me."

Something like a roleclaim is an important thing that you should give opinions on. You decided not to. Still scummy.

6: Not a scumtell. Not really any tell. Not really...anything...

Yes it is. (See? I responded the same way you did.)

7: Ok, you are trying to manipulate the meaning of my words. "Odd" meant it is bothering me, sorry that I didn't use a word you felt more in tune with "scummy." So I small FoSed him, gave him a chance to explain his vote, because maybe he had a good case.

So you thought he was scummy, but decided not to attack? If you think you have scum, you just "small FoS", call it odd, wait for a response, and walk away? Dodgeball quote= "Looks like Average Joe's is about to forfeit." "Great strategy here Cot, let's see if it works out for them."

Then, I FoSed because he never made a case. Seems pretty damn reasonable.

No, no, no. I see what you are doing and I'm not going to let you do it. This was a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ISSUE. You "removed" your "small" FoS. It's in the case. Right between the part of 7a that you DID respond to and 7b.

You complain that I didn't vote Darox? BFD. I don't think I am obligated to vote for every scumtell ever.

But when you find someone suspicious, you should vote. That's kind of...well...how you play mafia. Townies vote for who they think is scum and string 'em up. You seemed to be finding Darox suspicious, but hadn't voted him. Do you know what distancing is? I can explain it to you in that Newbie game if you'd like.

No, I didn't avoid the PBPA. I was freaking V/LA.

You were posting.

And NO I definitely did NOT vote Darox when he was our most likely lynch. In fact, I'm pretty damn certain I voted Darox about the time everyone was switching away from him in favor of Destructor.

"Everyone" was switching to Des? Did I miss this?

8: To your "first," so?

Keep reading...

Ok, the rest of this point is a boldfaced lie. I am noticing a pattern. You keep claiming that I am NOT suspicious of people I FoS. Do you know what the S stands for in FoS? I WAS suspicious of Dahill, don't try and claim I wasn't.

THEN WHY NO VOTE? Or at least call him scummy. It's not hard to do. Watch, I'll show you: Hey everyone, I think Isacc is scummy. I'd vote, but I already did that. It's not hard to do. Why the hell do you treat voting like this big scary thing? Vote for scummy players. That's the ONLY way the town can win is if we actually VOTE for who we think is scum.

"Now you are acting like you had previously been calling dahill scum. You weren't. And still no suspicions at this point in the game. On anyone."
-Lie

You called people "ridiculous" or "odd". You didn't vote. You never called anyone scummy. FoS when you aren't voting is useless IMO. I very rarely use it, and if I do, it's because someone else is so blatantly scummy that my vote isn't moving unless something huge happens. Btw, I'm at that point. Oh, and you're doing it again. You say I am lying. Lying is scummy. But I see no expression of suspicion on me from you. Are you gonna FoS me?

"Ok, but it's only important if you take something from it. You really didn't."
-Yep, I did. I took from it that I find Dahill town, and you an idiot.

That's nice. Who did you find scummy at the time? Why weren't you voting them?

9: A vote is used for two purposes in my mind. Number 1, I am comfortable lynching the person. Number 2, I am demanding they address an issue. In all the situations you are referencing, neither of these held true. Therefore, I had no reason for a vote.

It also shows a strong stance on your suspicions. If the person isn't in danger of being lynched, you have no reason to be scared to vote. Well, unless you think six more people are going to jump on and quicklynch before you have a chance to unvote.

10: I wasn't saying that because others did it, it wasn't scummy. You are totally misrepping. I was saying that it was weird that Hascow singled me out. I did not at all say anything like what you are claiming. I do admit the OMGUS was my bad, and it was a common trend in all my games. However, you may note I have (since Hascow and I discussed it) stop assuming anyone voting me is scum.

Hascow called out you specifically. Instead of addressing his point, you pointed to Plum doing the same thing.

Also, a misrep is scummy. You think I'm misrepping you. Are you suspicious of me?

11: That is how I roll. Or how I rolled. Either way, not really a tell unless you fail at meta.

I've never played with you before.

12: I wasn't gonna make him die. But I won't get into why your logic is circular again.

13: Lulz.

It's been discussed enough.

So, your whole case fails.

Your defense to my case fails.

Here's a question. Earlier you "voted me for same reasons as yesterday." Yesterday, your reasons were only my gambit, and today you have a "case." Why wasn't that there yesterday?

Yesterday, my reasons were your gambit and your reaction to my accusations. When I voted today, it was still because of that. The case is there today, and not yesterday, well... because frankly, I had a lot of free time yesterday and I didn't feel I'd shown enough about my suspicions on you.

tags fixed

[Isacc]

Kmd: Your responses to my point have done little/nothing to display any scumminess of mine. Half of it's wrong, and half of it is just dumb. And, I would respond to it point by point, but it would take forever and simply result in a similar response from you.

Why haven't I started being suspicious of you yet? Because in the past, I got too suspicious of people just for attacking me, and was often wrong, so I am trying to make sure I am not mistaking stupidity for scumtells, as I have been in the past. I'm trying to not make OMGUS my meta anymore xD.

[Kmd4390]

Well, points stand then. You've been scummy as hell and your defense was retarded. (See? I can do that too.)