Mini Normal 2306: Game Over

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: Roden

Old joke is Old.

[JasonWazza]

Are you referring to me?

[JasonWazza]

Well unfortunately it's not a dragon, so you wouldn't have a fire breathing dragon as an ally even if we were on the same team.

[JasonWazza]

Is this the fastest scum slip in the history of mafia

If your referring to me, you need to learn to read what is typed.

[JasonWazza]

I thought it was Demon Slayer, but I was fooled.

Please elaborate, and allow me to make sense of this exchange.

Demon Slayer is a game name in this context.

[JasonWazza]

I mean even then, are their read's good?

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: Roden
VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

[JasonWazza]

Oh you're one of those players that hard scumread me from early on.

Am I?

Seems a bit defensive, wouldn't you say?

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: NorwegianboyEE
VOTE: MikhailTal

[JasonWazza]

I'm confused, Mikhail are you saying that Roden has to act exactly the same at all times no matter what if they are town?

And not actually answer a question directed at them as town?

Like what is this argument?

[JasonWazza]

Just going to point out to everyone that Mikhail is referencing an ongoing game, and we should avoid discussing stuff regarding it.

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: MikhailTal
VOTE: Osuka

[JasonWazza]

Can someone explain why Hana would be so convinced that "defensiveness" is even an scumtell in the first place.
"Too defensive" sounds like a buzzword that scum would focus on because it sounds good as an reasoning for their push.

I mean being defensive can be a scum tell, depends on the defensiveness itself.

[JasonWazza]

I mean self-preservation isn't a trait exclusive to scum, would be nice if it were that simple.

[JasonWazza]

Hey nurse, can I get your reasoning for the Hu Tao town read?

[JasonWazza]

Likewise Flavour is an very experienced mafia player and in the psychology of players in games of mafia, i think they know that everyone get's hesitant when a player offers themselves freely up as the elimination. Because they think "oh it must be town, because scum worries about self-preservation" and thus they get the unsaid result that they really want from their supposedly non-selfpreserving actions.

This assumes that we for some reason never Lim FL for the crime of existing as a Miller.

[JasonWazza]

Takutai, just to check, you are an alt yeah?

[JasonWazza]

So many players refusing to do things is really fun.

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: Osuka

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: Osuka

Why?

They have some good posts, and I need to do a double take on this game at this point.

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: Osuka

Why?

They have some good posts, and I need to do a double take on this game at this point.

What posts are good, none of his recent posts change or do anything for me

615 is good and i frankly missed that, makes me want to do a double take on what the fuck Mikhail is doing.

602 also feels like it's coming from town.

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: Osuka

Why?

They have some good posts, and I need to do a double take on this game at this point.

What posts are good, none of his recent posts change or do anything for me

615 is good and i frankly missed that, makes me want to do a double take on what the fuck Mikhail is doing.

602 also feels like it's coming from town.

do u think 615 is something mafia isn't capable of coming up w/?
why does 602 feel like it comes from town?

Both of these are stupid questions and you know that.

[JasonWazza]

none of those posts seem overly AI to me.

But I'm also in the process of re-looking at everyone to see where all my reads stand right now.

P-Edit: Feels like a weird take, that only Mafia will interact with what is a policy lim.

[JasonWazza]

P-Edit: Feels like a weird take, that only Mafia will interact with what is a policy lim.

I feel like a villager would eventually get to the conclusion that it's just not worth their time where as mafia would probably love to just take one of their posts quote it and say how bad it is

And I would call that a personality tell, whether someone would do that, not an alignment tell, especially with what Mikhail is doing specifically, I can see Town being just as frustrated and trying to get them to stop.

[JasonWazza]

So what makes you think that Osuka isn't telling them to stop, AS TOWN, rather then as Mafia?

Like specifically what shows the alignment from that, since that is a decent part of your argument.

P-Edit: Your not wrong, but that doesn't make it something you can do.

[JasonWazza]

Also Alisae, since you are so fond of asking this of everyone else, who other then Osuka do you think is Mafia?

[JasonWazza]

So what makes you think that Osuka isn't telling them to stop, AS TOWN, rather then as Mafia?

his comments to me read like he's shading him as opposed to telling them to stop.
It doesn't come across as someone who wants to be right (town).

But why do you think Mafia would feel the need to shade Mikhail?

They have already blotted out the Sun above them, so it's not like shading is gonna do much.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: Firebringer

I actually agree on both Firebringer/Takutai but i think FL makes a decent point in that if a Cop exists, get them to check Takutai, since Takutai claimed VT (i think that's a real claim anyway? who the fuck knows with what is going on in this game honestly.) so i think Firebringer is the better lim target right now.

[JasonWazza]

Wait like specifically only one of them is Mafia in your mind?

[JasonWazza]

Actually a quick check of my ISO makes me question, why do you have a town read on me?

[JasonWazza]

do u think 615 is something mafia isn't capable of coming up w/?
why does 602 feel like it comes from town?

I feel like this post overly applies to that, like your reasoning feels bad, and like your not actually solving me (because you'd have to assume that I as Mafia can't feign scumhunting at all)

[JasonWazza]

No i mean like those questions apply here, why do you think Mafia isn't capable of doing what i have done, and why does it feel like i have been town recently based on... what is basically just really weak vibes (especially enough to get to your confidence tier.)

[JasonWazza]

I mean I'll admit this might not be a great reasoning, but it (being Takutai's play so far this game) feels kinda manufactured and kinda fake to me.

[JasonWazza]

I feel like I'm never going to have a good read on Alisae, and I think I will just have to trust other people to read this slot for me.

[JasonWazza]

Random Nurse: Mafia.

random nurse looks town too at this point? umm, is this game just really easy or something?

I'm gonna need the progression on this, because this makes no sense, given what was posted in this time frame.

[JasonWazza]

Random Nurse: Mafia.

random nurse looks town too at this point? umm, is this game just really easy or something?

I'm gonna need the progression on this, because this makes no sense, given what was posted in this time frame.

miki just takes aspects of other folks' perspectives to their conclusions n sees how it feels about it over n over day 1~

flavor leaf is not the miller and i know who the miller is

, testing the contrapositive to its actual beliefs yin thinks?

Maybe I'm being really dumb here (i did have to google the word contrapositive and that is a google search that hurts my brain), but I feel like you avoided the question with this.

[JasonWazza]

Though even if that's true and I've been duped bamboozled and smeckledorfed
Not only that, you might even get fortnite danced on or put on someones "best of" compilations on youtube.

Oh come on that was not inside of the quote MS.

Lmaooooo

Oh I see, something in the quote coding got fucked up

Nothing got stuffed up, you are missing a /quote

[JasonWazza]

So you're going to have two entirely different reads lists depending on who you are at the moment?

The issue being it doesn't feel like 2 different read's lists.

[JasonWazza]

Oh yeah just to be clear, it wasn't a counter point, more an additional point, the read's seem to similar for what should be a different read's list altogether.

[JasonWazza]

so can I just check, has Yin read the entire thread?

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: Firebringer
VOTE: Takutai

By my count that's E-2

[JasonWazza]

Unrelated to the game but:
Why do i keep getting phpbb warnings at the top of the page everytime i ISO someone is this normal or is a me thing.

Don't know about normal, but since i came back to MS i have been getting that with every ISO

[JasonWazza]

I think effective use of the vote is uncommon and most players don't rly know how to effectively use their vote.

Yeah real talk, I came back to the site recently, why is it that like half the people around at the moment don't like using their vote at all?

Is there like an actual reason for it?

[JasonWazza]

I think effective use of the vote is uncommon and most players don't rly know how to effectively use their vote.

Yeah real talk, I came back to the site recently, why is it that like half the people around at the moment don't like using their vote at all?

Is there like an actual reason for it?

Mafia is a really hard game and it's not easy to play well, so there aren't a lot of players that really know what they're doing.
For me, I know what I am good at, I know what I'm not good at, and I've kind of defined my playstyle and how it is I approach the game.
A lot of people when they're villagers kind of just post what's on their mind and don't rly move about the game with intention

I mean my point would be, who cares about playing well, play for fun.

I think effective use of the vote is uncommon and most players don't rly know how to effectively use their vote.

Yeah real talk, I came back to the site recently, why is it that like half the people around at the moment don't like using their vote at all?

Is there like an actual reason for it?

Maybe people's inherent fear of being wrong? I know that's a problem on my HS, but the problem there is a lot worse than what we're seeing here and i eventually gave up on it.

I mean being wrong happens, it's a game, that doesn't inherently mean you shouldn't use your vote.

[JasonWazza]

Also just as a rule of thumb, not using your vote actively harms your chance at a win IMO, since VCA is a strong tool, but with the people on the site atm, it feels like VCA is off the table because no one uses their vote anyway.

[JasonWazza]

Maybe I'm confused, what exactly makes Taku Town from the flailing?

Question is for NorwegianboyEE, Saukura Hana and Alisae.

and I want actual reasoning none of this WIFOMy crap.

[JasonWazza]

Taku there is plenty of other reason's I can have as Town to vote you there.

[JasonWazza]

Taku there is plenty of other reason's I can have as Town to vote you there.

I'm not seeing them in your words and as it's "spineless" to not spew out your every thought in a game that's already on page forty-four I'm afraid Tal and I would like to hear them.

I will note, I do plan on answering this, but I want all responses to my question first, and I'm still waiting on Alisae.

[JasonWazza]

I will say i think there is at least one scum in

{Alisae, Sakura, Norwegian}

Because none of them can even actually answer with a reason that isn't just WIFOM

Taku there is plenty of other reason's I can have as Town to vote you there.

I'm not seeing them in your words and as it's "spineless" to not spew out your every thought in a game that's already on page forty-four I'm afraid Tal and I would like to hear them.

Wagon analysis can give us info, the fact that your wagon went up at that speed is fine, but the speed it dropped off makes me think scum was on the wagon and jumped off it because of convenience, and because they wanted to try and avoid some of the backlash that the wagon has.

Add that to the fact that none of the 3 can give even a halfway decent reason means there is a fairly decent chance that there was scum there.

UNVOTE: Takutai
VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

[JasonWazza]

Sure everything is wine, but there is good attempts to sort, and people that aren't actually sorting.

[JasonWazza]

Oh, hell no, you're not turning me against my townreads.

What, so you would rather just have town reads that could be wrong then actually continue sorting people?

[JasonWazza]

Here's the point I will make, if it seems too easy, then it is.

All our read's lists are way too similar, to the point where I think there is scum in this Town Block we have been creating.

It's a 13 player game, and our reads only contradict on like 4 players.

A point was made about there being a lot of strong social players right now, and I agree, but it makes me worried, because I think said players are also using the other players as cover, to skirt on by, while not actually attempting to solve, and maintaining this easy "here's the town block that we all agree on right?"

[JasonWazza]

If your just going to admit it's you then fine.

UNVOTE: NorwegianboyEE
VOTE: Alisae

[JasonWazza]

I haven't liked a single push Jason has done this game.

And that makes me scum?

This game frankly just feels annoying to play because no one is DOING anything, i try to get shit done to work on what I'm feeling, and then people decide to actively do less, and this is fucking frustrating.

None of my pushes have been a set in stone you are scum, it's been mostly trying to get actual reactions out, because frankly my reads feel shit, and the Town Block we have feels even worse.

But hey if I'm scum for trying to do shit, go for it get me out.

[JasonWazza]

One of the Mikhail system said it as well if I recall

[JasonWazza]

Would that not be wildly unbalanced if there were 3 informed Miller's in the game?

As they would basically turn into a Masonry of sorts without a PT? (Reminder that Miller is only normal as a town role)

[JasonWazza]

Sakura who are your top 2 scumreads

How about you answer this question?

[JasonWazza]

I feel like “scum aren’t taking many actions” seems like a bad thing lmao

I mean it's either scum is lurking and being allowed to lurk due to apathy, or scum is deliberately trying to fill the thread with crap to make it harder to read.

And we can't really discern either way because everyone can apparently just refuse to play the game and that's ok according to several people.

[JasonWazza]

Yeah and you could also play the game and not just spam post, but here we are.

[JasonWazza]

And we can't really discern either way because everyone can apparently just refuse to play the game and that's ok according to several people.

Has the site meta degraded this much since my last time here or is this game an exception and not the norm.

Also I haven't been in anything above a micro before this game, but it does feel like a bit more standard fair then I'd personally like.

Obviously, don’t make it obvious you aren’t really those roles going forward, but I think it’s for sure worth doing.

You realize this isn't as easy as you make it seem, the issue with Hypo-claiming is always that it's hard to maintain the facade of giving real results.

[JasonWazza]

Jason’s a little outta pocket here ngl.

Seems a little forced, but really might not be. I’m not seeing scum reasoning from his post.

At the end of the day, I’m not getting much scum reads right now, so I’m wrong somewhere.

What about this seems forced exactly?

I'm annoyed at how this game is not moving anywhere, and that is irrelevant to my alignment.

Town and Scum me would be annoyed at this for different but similar reasons.

Town!Jason hates this because it's impossible to progress reads and actually make headway.

Scum!Jason hates this because it's boring as fuck, and doesn't make for an enjoyable game.

[JasonWazza]

Oh so you have enough to get perfect immovable reads then FL?

Good then who exactly is scum and town.

[JasonWazza]

Oh so you have enough to get perfect immovable reads then FL?

Good then who exactly is scum and town.

Why do you expect perfect immovable reads on Day 1?

That’s just asking to get ripped and a 6 pack while eating healthy and going to the gym for a week.

I don't need perfect immovable reads day 1, but saying i'm not allowed to be annoyed at this shit because no one is doing anything, means you should have perfect reads, because you seem to be happy to allow this game to stop right now.

So again my question stands, who is town, and who is scum?

Perfect answers please.

[JasonWazza]

Town!Jason hates this because it's impossible to progress reads and actually make headway.

there's 62 pages
if people wanted to form and push reads, there is room for that to happen

a) Progressing reads doesn't have to mean re-reading.
b) Almost 22% of those are your posts, so it's not like we have as much content as your trying to pretend there is.

[JasonWazza]

@FL:

Who are your top 2 scumreads

I’ll do you one better and give you 3.

Random Nurse, You, and Alisae.

Don’t think you and Alisae are together, but yea, either of you could be with Random.

So you'd rather currently sit here and do nothing, waiting for RN to come back, then actually get off your ass and do something?

[JasonWazza]

Sakura who are your top 2 scumreads

How about you answer this question?

Roden and I'm trying to figure out if FL meta thing was him trying to find a reason to scumread me or was actually misspoken. I am a little weary of firebringer too but could just be his way of speaking. You?

I think Alisae Firebringer and FL are all my top scum reads at this point.

[JasonWazza]

I'm at the point where I don't believe FL's miller claim.

[JasonWazza]

Sakura who are your top 2 scumreads

How about you answer this question?

Roden and I'm trying to figure out if FL meta thing was him trying to find a reason to scumread me or was actually misspoken. I am a little weary of firebringer too but could just be his way of speaking. You?

I think Alisae Firebringer and FL are all my top scum reads at this point.

Firebringer and Alisae give me the same kinda vibe but I think it's the carefree attitude. What were your thoughts on alisae trying to meta case me. Think scum would do that?

Well considering that said metaing comes with this disclaimer

Metadiving is not rly one of my strengths

I would think that scum can easily do that, because it gives them a reason to just randomly determine whatever feel they want on you.

[JasonWazza]

I'm at the point where I don't believe FL's miller claim.

Why

Why is it so much of a concern?

[JasonWazza]

I'm at the point where I don't believe FL's miller claim.

Why

Why is it so much of a concern?

because the reason is bullshit?
He is either a miller or a wolf you either pick one and you go with it and the only real indicator you have to read the player off of is their play.

I'm confused, I haven't really given the reason, so how can you think it is bullshit?

[JasonWazza]

Everything in mafia is wine
Our job is to sort it

[JasonWazza]

I'm gonna be honest and say, I don't know what your really wanting me to respond to there Roden.

[JasonWazza]

Everything in mafia is wine
Our job is to sort it

So why is it mafia as opposed to a real miller?

Why is it my job to tell you?

[JasonWazza]

I made the assertion, doesn't mean I have to back it up with reasoning, you can believe my reads, or choose not to believe them.

[JasonWazza]

Everything in mafia is wine
Our job is to sort it

So why is it mafia as opposed to a real miller?

Why is it my job to tell you?

okay so you're mafia.
Got it.

So why is it this is annoying you so much?

[JasonWazza]

I'm gonna be honest and say, I don't know what your really wanting me to respond to there Roden.

VOTE: Jason

Can't just point out exactly what you want me to talk to you about?

[JasonWazza]

Everything in mafia is wine
Our job is to sort it

So why is it mafia as opposed to a real miller?

Why is it my job to tell you?

okay so you're mafia.
Got it.

So why is it this is annoying you so much?

because your voting record is terrible

What's that got to do with me doubting that FL is a miller?

[JasonWazza]

My hunting is fake because I don't think FL is a miller?

[JasonWazza]

jason why do you not want to discuss ur FL reasoning on faking.
U were complaining people don't want to do anything yet ur not helping by refusing to explain ur own reasoning for why FL is faking miller

I don't like how ur engaging in these back and forths either with ur scumreads either. It doesn't feel very much like talking to scumreads

Hint: this is the first thing Alisae actually wants to actually engage with me on, why am I going to not take this opportunity to try and get something useful from it?

[JasonWazza]

For example, if you genuinely believed that Takutai was a flailing wolf, you could have pushed them harder.

Where have i said this exactly?

[JasonWazza]

jason why do you not want to discuss ur FL reasoning on faking.
U were complaining people don't want to do anything yet ur not helping by refusing to explain ur own reasoning for why FL is faking miller

I don't like how ur engaging in these back and forths either with ur scumreads either. It doesn't feel very much like talking to scumreads

Hint: this is the first thing Alisae actually wants to actually engage with me on, why am I going to not take this opportunity to try and get something useful from it?

if ur telling me ur trying to reaction test alisae.
I don't believe at all thats what ur doing

Who said reaction test?

I said something, Alisae has reacted in a way to actually generate information, I'm not going to just give them an answer if we can generate information from it instead.

[JasonWazza]

Maybe I'm confused, what exactly makes Taku Town from the flailing?

Question is for NorwegianboyEE, Saukura Hana and Alisae.

and I want actual reasoning none of this WIFOMy crap.

the question is written to imply they're not town for their posting

Yes and the question is written to actually get answers from the 3 people that dumped the wagon with no specified reason.

I didn't say I had an opinion on it either way.

[JasonWazza]

Who said reaction test?

I said something, Alisae has reacted in a way to actually generate information, I'm not going to just give them an answer if we can generate information from it instead.

feel like we playing word games
ur saying ur getting something out of alisae.
What have u gotten out of alisae

Are we both reading the same thread?

[JasonWazza]

Not sure cause i don't understand what ur position on me or alisae at this point with how ur engaging with either of us.

I mean I'm mostly just giving you off hand comments.

Getting Alisae to give me actual reasoning for their thought patterns helps me with my own reads, not sure how exactly that is unclear.

[JasonWazza]

Maybe I'm confused, what exactly makes Taku Town from the flailing?

Question is for NorwegianboyEE, Saukura Hana and Alisae.

and I want actual reasoning none of this WIFOMy crap.

the question is written to imply they're not town for their posting

Yes and the question is written to actually get answers from the 3 people that dumped the wagon with no specified reason.

I didn't say I had an opinion on it either way.

Alisae don't stop engaging come on, why exactly do you think the above question, meant that my opinion had to be that Taku was scum flailing?

[JasonWazza]

because that's how I read the sentence

And that remains so even with how I unvoted once I got the answer to said question?

So why exactly do I pose said question and unvote as scum?

[JasonWazza]

Like here's the issue Alisae, you post my voting habit as a scum voting habit, why can't it be town using their vote to try and assist with generating reads?

[JasonWazza]

because that's how I read the sentence

And that remains so even with how I unvoted once I got the answer to said question?

So why exactly do I pose said question and unvote as scum?

I mean I don't exactly quite understand your position on Takutai.
If you think that Takutai isn't going to be an option today, you can make up a dichotomy that's bad and waste time faking hunting within that dichotomy.

I think Taku is town honestly, i don't think they should be an option on any day at this point.

So you think I am scum, and just used that to try and generate an area to have my vote parked for the rest of the day?

Why would I limit my range so much as scum?

Let alone to such a shitty range (let's face it, it's not a nice range to be forced to focus on)?

Like here's the issue Alisae, you post my voting habit as a scum voting habit, why can't it be town using their vote to try and assist with generating reads?

because my read is the dichotomy of {Ali, Norwee, Sakura} is something I think it's wrong and I think it's wrong for malicious reasons as opposed to someone looking for truth?
I mean you voted me because I "slipped" my alignment.

And why can't I be town making a wrong dichotomy?

And why can't you be wrong about said dichotomy?

I didn't just vote you because of the "slip", and I think you should be aware of that.

[JasonWazza]

So your so certain on Norwee and Sakura town that I have to be scum with this reasoning?

P-Edit: LOL

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: Alisae

[JasonWazza]

Onus is on town to find mafia so as long as you are doing that and disrupting that process then in the moment its a fine play.

Ah good to know that you're aware that your actions are pro-mafia.

Like, actually, how realistically do you believe that your reaction test, that can be at best described at random, would actually generate something useful?

and how realistically do you believe that deliberately stopping other players from doing their own progression of reads in their own way, is going to actually generate something useful?

[JasonWazza]

It’s just odd that of all people Jason could have talked about ‘not doing anything/people need to get off their ass and do something’ he chose me.

Like wtf, yo, you don’t want me doing more than I am right now.

Gotta know I’m TOO into playing games here.

I auto pilot try hard to the level I just full vibe the whole game.

Like all I do is play and analyze and look for complex reads.

And I'm meant to know all this background that "explains" why you decide to do nothing?

[JasonWazza]

I can’t tell if Jason is scum or just really bad at engaging.

Could be both.

I ‘might’ lean town there, but wouldn’t be heartbroken to fade them.

Feels like a solid Day 1 fade

I assume he is a competent player

Is he a pre-2012 player.

And just to be clear, this is my main account, I'm not from Pre-2012, but I did have RL game experience from before joining the site.

[JasonWazza]

I can’t tell if Jason is scum or just really bad at engaging.

Could be both.

I ‘might’ lean town there, but wouldn’t be heartbroken to fade them.

Feels like a solid Day 1 fade

I assume he is a competent player

Is he a pre-2012 player.

And just to be clear, this is my main account, I'm not from Pre-2012, but I did have RL game experience from before joining the site.

I can’t see join dates on mobile without extra work.

Was more just trying to figure out your mindset and who you are on a deeper level

Oh my bad, forgot that wasn't visible on Mobile, August 2 2012 is my listed date.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: Firebringer

Gonna put my vote here while I work on my to-do list for this game, do think I need to re-analyze a few things now that I finally have the interaction with Alisae I wanted from days ago.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: Norwee
well that was a very bad string of posts

And yet I'm scum for suggesting that they were scum?

Like what the fuck is this game?

[JasonWazza]

Like, yes on a superficial level it looks like they're doing that, but, 1) their attempts to control the narrative are so transparent that it becomes blatant, and 2) they're not doing a very good job of it. It really just comes down to them stone walling the active posters when any of us try to push a scum read they disagree with. Which has been like, all of them.

The issue is that it's literally all of them, and that their scum reads are basically changing to cause the most apathy possible in the game it feels like (I haven't done my re-read yet, but that feels like what they have been doing to me at least, and at least without a full re-read in context)

I dunno it could be an issue of me not liking Alisae as a player, that's why I need to do a re-read, but outside of the lolrandom posting, I don't actually think I dislike Alisae as a player, it's just that the lolrandom is way too much of their posting, and the rest doesn't seem right.

I'm just the type of person that gets better reads by engagement.
And it's hard to when ppl refuse to engage with me.

Same, that's why i'm struggling because of all the stone walls.

[JasonWazza]

viewtopic.php?t=91073 this is an example of game that is more how I normally play

That is actually so much less obnoxious (not intended to be offensive), why aren't you playing like that exactly?

[JasonWazza]

Question, is there an easy place to see like a list of normal games and what is in them?

[JasonWazza]

unless you're trying to look at setups from the past.

Yeah specifically past setups that have been run, i know what is considered normal, i want to look into the actual meta.

[JasonWazza]

Vanilla Townie
Vanilla townie
Vanilla townie
Town Miller
Town Miller
Town Miller
Town Miller
Town Desperate Neighborizer*
Town Multitasking Two-Shot Doctor Two-Shot Roleblocker
Town Rolecop
Town backup rolecop

Informed Mafia Goon (No Alignment Cops In Game)
Mafia WillBooster
Mafia Goon

This was a 4 Miller game, BooneyToonz, but it's pretty Normal esque. Desperate acts like Weak or Disloyal that also goes through on Millers.

You realize this doesn't help your case in that the Mafia was informed right?

I feel like Mafia have been informed of something (eg. no role cops, no alignment cops, there is a miller, something of this sort that gives them information to this effect) and that you and Alisae are making a play with this information.

I did look through the archive, and notice that it ends a few years ago, so that's not really as helpful as I would have liked.

If NORMAL games have gotten rather wacky as time has gone on from the archive, I can kinda see this being a setup, but otherwise it feels like a play.

[JasonWazza]

The wackiest Normal set up I've played in was a Pooky game with nearly unintelligble roles, three Millers doesn't feel all that wacky in comparison

Assuming 3 millers is all we have.

I honestly don't think it is, because i have been getting PR vibes outside of Sheep/Alisae/FL

[JasonWazza]

I guess I don't understand the bolded part.

They are the only ones in the playerlist i know would use daychat to strategize to that extenct and make sure their stories match with their predecessor. Fire... idk really dont seem the type, Norwee, probably not either, and i dont know enough information about the others to make that call I guess.

I'll be honest and volunteer that I absolutely would have put that into a scum PT, there was enough there from Mikhail to have that be something that needs to be tracked early by sheep.

[JasonWazza]

The wackiest Normal set up I've played in was a Pooky game with nearly unintelligble roles, three Millers doesn't feel all that wacky in comparison

Assuming 3 millers is all we have.

I honestly don't think it is, because i have been getting PR vibes outside of Sheep/Alisae/FL

I have assumptions about the set up but nothing I want to share yet.

Also the Pooky game I was talking about:

Once you get through all the modifiers, this isn't that complicated a setup, the only thing that makes it wacky is that it looks like it might be wacky if you don't understand modifiers.

The difference is that this is a setup (assuming all claims are real claims) with 3 Millers + probably more

And what else can you add to this game to make it balanced?

Can't add a Rolecop, because a rolecop would be way to high in utility (Reminder that a Miller is automatically innocent due to normal rules).

Probably can't add an alignment cop, half the town being possible guilties (6/12) and half of those being wrong probably unbalances the game in a scum fashion.

What do you add to this, to actually get to a balanced setup?

Like the weird thing from FL is to bring up a game, that isn't normal to try and justify it, and yeah it's technically got elements of being normal, that's not the issue, the issue is that this is a normal that has to be considered balanced by a review team.

What do I think is more likely, that we have 3 Millers, or that the Mafia are informed, and have decided to claim Miller with whatever info they were given?

Obviously, I believe the second, and the fact that the setups i'm being thrown aren't even that wacky to begin with, inclines me more and more to their being fake Miller claims.

[JasonWazza]

I love how I say I think Mafia are informed of something, and you decide to make up something that couldn't be possible as a strawman to counter it, rather then actually counter the point I am making.

[JasonWazza]

I kinda want to not think too hard into the Miller thing right now and hope it solves itself soon.

The issue is it doesn't get solved.

We wouldn't have a rolecop with this many millers.

[JasonWazza]

That is way too early to be asking for a claim if your VC is right.

[JasonWazza]

sheep will vote osuka

Yeah but who is number 7?

By my count of reasonable votes, that brings you to 6, unless someone has a big change (though I guess dunn also doesn't nessecarilly have an opinion on this as far as I'm aware so who knows there.)

P-Edit: BLEH

[JasonWazza]

My brain hurts with this game.

[JasonWazza]

My brain hurts with this game.

Tell me about it......
What IS Normal anymore, i feel like i can disentangle a theme game like Anything UPick from back then faster than this mess.

Normal is clearly bullshit and I hate it.

[JasonWazza]

My brain hurts with this game.

Tell me about it......
What IS Normal anymore, i feel like i can disentangle a theme game like Anything UPick from back then faster than this mess.

Normal is clearly bullshit and I hate it.

Let's see the setup before we talk about it

I mean I can voice my opinion without seeing the entire setup.

[JasonWazza]

I'm just going to point out to everyone, that I still think this setup has informed Mafia, even with what is going on.

[JasonWazza]

I don't know what they are informed of... but I think they are informed.

I will not elaborate why.

[JasonWazza]

I don't know what they are informed of

[JasonWazza]

we aren't in the setup FL posted

I will also agree with this.

[JasonWazza]

Sakura, do you feel equally as useless this game as I feel?

[JasonWazza]

Sakura, do you feel equally as useless this game as I feel?

I am at times, but this is not one of them.

Gotcha.

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: Firebringer
VOTE: Osuka

I actually want to flip one of these claims to at least confirm for my own sanity that there is millers this game.

[JasonWazza]

so it's just Alisae then no?

VOTE: Alisae

[JasonWazza]

Norwegian is town Alisae.

[JasonWazza]

You can curse the village all you want, it doesn't at all change the fact that Norwegian is town.

[JasonWazza]

Your that confident in Alisae Norwegian?

[JasonWazza]

Real talk, I think Alisae and FL are both scum with this day start tbh.

FL is barely even acknowledging the chance of there being a role cop, while being hyper-fixated on a cop.

Also I want to see this proof that Sakura was claiming VT at those saying she was.

[JasonWazza]

This means there are 2 or 3 scum in those remaining 6, and if there’s a Cop, it would be left in a pool of 3 or 4.

Based on play and how people go, that means it’s roughly a 33% chance at random for scum to catch a cop in that pool.

Use play to figure out more, that number goes up.

Yeah and it's almost like hypo-claiming increases these odd's, and doesn't decrease them.

Your trying to actively pretend that you don't give a direct line to the cop with hypo-claims.

[JasonWazza]

Real talk, I think Alisae and FL are both scum with this day start tbh.

FL is barely even acknowledging the chance of there being a role cop, while being hyper-fixated on a cop.

Also I want to see this proof that Sakura was claiming VT at those saying she was.

Point out where I said she was saying that

I didn't say you were saying it, I'm saying I want it pointed out.

[JasonWazza]

Yeah well it wasn't directed at you, it was just in the same post.

[JasonWazza]

ok so wolves aren't PR hunting
VOTE: Norwee

When I saw this kill the first thing that I thought is 'wolves are pr hunting.'

I don't see sakura being gone serving any other plan than pr hunting.

Sakura basically claimed VT, this kill couldn't be PR hunting

I thought there was more of it, apparently my brain imagined the rest.

[JasonWazza]

Also eye roll inducing how everyone waited until today to talk about being against hypo claiming when it was discussed fully yesterday

To be fair, when it was mentioned yesterday, we didn't have 3 miller claims out. (as far as i recall)

[JasonWazza]

Real talk, I think Alisae and FL are both scum with this day start tbh.

FL is barely even acknowledging the chance of there being a role cop, while being hyper-fixated on a cop.

Also I want to see this proof that Sakura was claiming VT at those saying she was.

Real talk, I think it’s more likely we have a Role Cop than a Cop.

Then why were you more focused on talking about a Cop earlier?

[JasonWazza]

Let's say
{Jason, Ali, FL, Sheep, Norwee} are all town.

Who are the mafia?

I mean based on the potentially flawed premise.

{Fire, Dunn, Roden}

Would probably be my guess.

Hu Tao feels town, RN feels town, Taku feels town.

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: Alisae
VOTE: Roden

[JasonWazza]

Roden’s analysis on Sakura why she was more than likely not a PR kill is accurate.

That was a player motivated kill.

I don't believe that this is the case, however arguing over this doesn't actually help much.

[JasonWazza]

Love how FL is refusing to do anything useful, and is instead focusing on hypo-claiming against as a scum pool, which doesn't make sense at all considering if any town is in the against category, then there is a town reason to be against hypo-claiming, and assuming scum must be in the against grouping doesn't make sense.

[JasonWazza]

I think it would be beneficial for us to discuss Taku’s point on Fire’s protective role. That’s like the only good post in recent pages. I thought about it earlier and this setup seems like it has a lot of town power. Anyone else got a take on this?

I agree, but I think discussing it doesn't help us.

If you don't believe the claim, you ignore it for today regardless and focus elsewhere.

Frankly, that's also where I think I've gotten for the millers as well, there is no way all of them are false (2 i buy being fake, all 3 i don't) so ignoring them for now is the best option.

Feel like the lim should probably be within {RN, Taku, Hu Tao, Dunn, Roden} for today.