hi, i'm large normal 242. and i'm over with.

[MathBlade]

Too has done nothing to show he's a villager besides say "I interected with Pooky" when they voted with Pooky all of D1 and gave their vote away to do nothing. Like, they're not a villager lol

Okay. I disagree with that premise.

Even if you’re right does that make Johnny town?

[MathBlade]

Premise MariaR unlikely partners is false.

BGC/Johnny is very likely scum here.

Maria R sacrificing two shot follower for vig protection makes sense.

Toog unaligned with Cape sentence is unclear.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: BGC

For Kitty!

BGC/Johnny also explains the Kitty kill rather thoroughly.

I suspect he’s going to flip more than 1 shot BG.

Which is pretty much a death sentence for you.

Which means your play today isn’t about getting the elim you want.

It’s about getting your last buddy through the elims.

[MathBlade]

The frog kill also is explained if BGC/Johnny is more than one shot.

If scum kill Not Mafia instead of Frogger then they have to contend with me collaborating with BGC with my loyal voyeur combination of Frog checks BGC and discovers he’s unlimited shots.

But if scum kill Frogger that buys Johnny time versus conf guilties.

The entire play imho of the scum team is buying time for survival.

The proper play was for you to bus Johnny hard today. I think you goofed it up Titus.

[MathBlade]

*sigh*

Why does MariaR start the Pooky wagon? MariaR is the counter to likely scum.


As for Toog being unlikely scum unless with Cape is due to neighbors and overloading. If Toog was scum, Pooky and Toog voted MariaR side by side overloading.

As I said to save BGC.

The entire scum narrative looks to be save BGC as long as possible.

That’s word salad for the overloading. I have work I have no idea what you mean by that.

[MathBlade]

I didn't goof anything up Math. I am and have been fucking right. You are just stubborn.

If you listened and looked at VCA, you'd see a scum Luke. Due all of it.

Then let’s get the scum we agree on.

If you’re town that’s surely protown right?

[MathBlade]

That gives me time in peace and quiet to do more VCA right?

I can check my narrative against the facts right?

[MathBlade]

Who knows maybe this is you and Luke and Johnny and some distancing ploy?

I promise to consider everything.

I’d just rather get who is most likely today.

[MathBlade]

I didn't goof anything up Math. I am and have been fucking right. You are just stubborn.

If you listened and looked at VCA, you'd see a scum Luke. Due all of it.

Then let’s get the scum we agree on.

If you’re town that’s surely protown right?

I agree with that solely because Johnny cannot live to elo with a flubbed claim. I want to get your entire PoE down. Johnny is my least likely scum target. If Johnny is the second townie to mess up his claim, we go into elo with you having exactly backwards reads but for marcistar.

I feel you've concluded I am scum for not playing your way rather than looking at evidence.

You realize I am actually not working with a PoE right? I have a potential solve but that depends on Johnny flipping exactly as I think he does. Once I have facts then I can eliminate and build that PoE

[MathBlade]

I have premises that lead to conclusions.

If premises are wrong (see prior post) address where and how they are.

Otherwise my reads don’t change

[MathBlade]

And if Johnny flips bodyguard scum and Frogsterking was shot for his reads?

That’s highly unlikely.

NM was an unlimited shot cop. Let me grab Frogger’s last reads

[MathBlade]

Spoiler:

vote count 1.7 !

Big Chungus Gaming (4):

KittyTacky, PookyTheMagicalBear, Toogeloo, Frogsterking

Save The Dragons (3):

Gamma Emerald, Charloux, Enchant

Frogsterking (3):

Greeting, Big Chungus Gaming, Save The Dragons

MalcolmTucker (1):

MariaR

Cape90 (1):

SirRhett

Toogeloo (1):

marcistar

Enchant (1):

Cape90

not voting (2):

MalcolmTucker, Fennec

with 16 alive, it takes 9 to blow someone up. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-10-12 15:00:00)

modorator notes

• e

Furtive
Dragons
Pooky
MariaR

Is disproven by the D1 greeting wagon

viewtopic.php?p=13520704#p13520704 1.9 (sorry mobile)

That scum team for the most part lurks. A surprise wagon on lurker Greeting would bring a lot of heat and be town driven and Pooky plops on.

Pooky isn’t one to do something without believing it helps him town or scum.

So since Pooky thought switching from BGC to greeting despite it 4 and 4 and both being town in that world.

That doesn’t add up to me.

I'm feeling a Pooky+Dragons+furtive+BCG scum team right about now.

VOTE: furtive

Pooky and BGC scum is likely. That’s where me and Frogger agreed.

Furtive was false.
Dragons is possible.

But not killing Frog leads to BGC guilty via mechanics for voyeur.

So even if you wish to maintain the unlikely world Frogger was killed by reads alone BGC/Johnny is still the play. Even more so.

[MathBlade]

I have premises that lead to conclusions.

If premises are wrong (see prior post) address where and how they are.

Otherwise my reads don’t change

How did your read change based on marcistar town? It feels like you're going down the same path rather than reviewing. I mean this in more confbias than effort.

My read on marcistar changed because I have evidence NM didn’t visit and is town?

Considering Pooky not saved it’s unlikely Marci scum

[MathBlade]

I have premises that lead to conclusions.

If premises are wrong (see prior post) address where and how they are.

Otherwise my reads don’t change

How did your read change based on marcistar town? It feels like you're going down the same path rather than reviewing. I mean this in more confbias than effort.

My read on marcistar changed because I have evidence NM didn’t visit and is town?

Considering Pooky not saved it’s unlikely Marci scum

Right...but you solve based on wholisitic factors. You had to have wrong premises leading you to that conclusion that I couldn't break you of. What were those wrong premises? Who put them in your ear?

You're talking about reanalyzing but it's not there.

Correct. I did mess up on D2. As established I was the idiot. I am not scum. I was remembering a time where Covid had my brain fizzled incorrectly. Eliminating my brain is dumb. As a precaution I worked with NM in case my Pooky read was wrong.

On D3, i was working towards establishing how scum break the hold NM and BGC would have on the game. This lead me to the either or of Marci/BGC scum. Based on how the game was going Marci seemed like the better guess combined with her claim being the usual mafia inno (I was thinking Enchant might be a GS there). So I figured it important to pressure and check her, but again added the failsafe.

There’s no nefarious planter here. It’s me planning for one way and failsafing

[MathBlade]

In other words assume BGC town.

If Gamma claimed D1 and said a random player. BGC guards NM. NM gets off a check. 1 conf alignment
N2 Marci docs Gamma. NM gets off another check. 2 conf alignment
N3 NM checks a third person << finally dies. 3 conf alignment

Scum would be attempting to shoot NM all three nights. Voyeurs like me never claim.

You’d be looking at d4 with half the scum team dead with no defense.

Ergo Marci and BGC can’t both be town.

That’s where my head is at.

[MathBlade]

But the proper approach IMO, is to use the breaking and let scum mess up. Unless you and Enchant are scum together, we confirmed Enchant voyuered and verified your role.

If we would have all targeted Luke, we would have gotten a scum death.

If I hadn't, you would have seen a random investigative and might have concluded that someone was lying scum.

Accepting the advantage we had was the proper play. Either you hate my analysis because it's me or you had people in your ear to save Luke.


Look at Frogsterking's last read post.

These are words but do not make sense.

I did what I feel the proper approach was.

It seems to have caught Johnny and the more you resist what the whole game asks for you.

[MathBlade]

Spoiler:

vote count 1.7 !

Big Chungus Gaming (4):

KittyTacky, PookyTheMagicalBear, Toogeloo, Frogsterking

Save The Dragons (3):

Gamma Emerald, Charloux, Enchant

Frogsterking (3):

Greeting, Big Chungus Gaming, Save The Dragons

MalcolmTucker (1):

MariaR

Cape90 (1):

SirRhett

Toogeloo (1):

marcistar

Enchant (1):

Cape90

not voting (2):

MalcolmTucker, Fennec

with 16 alive, it takes 9 to blow someone up. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-10-12 15:00:00)

modorator notes

• e

Furtive
Dragons
Pooky
MariaR

Is disproven by the D1 greeting wagon

viewtopic.php?p=13520704#p13520704 1.9 (sorry mobile)

That scum team for the most part lurks. A surprise wagon on lurker Greeting would bring a lot of heat and be town driven and Pooky plops on.

Pooky isn’t one to do something without believing it helps him town or scum.

So since Pooky thought switching from BGC to greeting despite it 4 and 4 and both being town in that world.

That doesn’t add up to me.

I'm feeling a

Pooky+Dragons

+furtive+

BCG

scum team right about now.

VOTE: furtive

The bolded is why Frogsterking was shot. Not mech.

It’s possible but I doubt it.

It would have been to scum’s advantage to assume me and Frog keep fighting.

The only way to find out is see Johnny’s flip

[MathBlade]

Like literally Enchant just claims.

He said he had a guilty. It’s not a 100% guilty but probable.

There’s no missing invest Titus.

[MathBlade]

Like literally Enchant just claims.

He said he had a guilty. It’s not a 100% guilty but probable.

There’s no missing invest Titus.

I didn't say there was. I said you would have pushed Enchant as scum because a wild invest appeared if I hadn't checked him

I gtg

Uhm no?

I literally said today I wouldn’t? You’re inventing a narrative

[MathBlade]

Math, you should confirm whether or not you got a result.

I agreed to enchant’s plan. I will wait until others have claimed.

Enchant's claim details you outing your result after everyone claims. It doesn't state whether you claim you got one. You should as it would limit fake claiming no?

I said my target yesterday.

If I state whether or not I have a result it tells others what to claim or not claim.

The order exists for a reason.

C’mon sis.

Enchant was always claiming voyeur on that slot.

I knew it wasn’t a hard guilty and Enchant said as much in day open.

[MathBlade]

Titus should state my role after everyone else claim and confirm action. Afterwards, i tell on who i have guilty.

MathBlade will be more or less confirmed by stating results afterwards, so skipped for now.

[MathBlade]

Only worked because I copped Enchant.

Game's basically in marci+Enchant hands now if you still won't listen.

Nah. I literally see it. Enchant claimed double before today and gave me stink eye telling me Enchant was voyeur.

You literally did a useless check,

[MathBlade]

The town block of NM/Toog/me don’t think Malcolm is scum

NM = conf vig
Toog = ?? (Should claim)
Enchant = double of someone.

[MathBlade]

I think you both taking wrong approach.

How so?

I am starting from what we know:
Certain roles exist
Assuming scum have a chance at winning
Therefore then making conclusions off

Should I start from lies or things possible to be false?

That sounds like a bad way to get reads and leads to issues like where I assume Pooky town.

[MathBlade]

Sorry wrong words, i mean.

I don't think talking about these conclusions makes sense now, before we look at flip of Johhnny. I believe regardless what flip, we can realise what happens and make right choice, right now is kinda useless talk.

I would more likely to ask Marci about mind, because Marci will die like 99% and then move on, unless you have really strong reasoning why we should't go Johhnny.

And that’s what I am saying too.

Titus continues to push me to demand a Luke scumread now.

Which since we are elimming Johnny there’s like no reason to try to hero solve.

I can analyze based on how Johnny flips.

[MathBlade]

Which since we are elimming Johnny there’s like no reason to try to hero solve.

It's not a hero solve to use the time we're given. I want to hear your thoughts on Luke without you actually saying I'm scum/bad.

That's not hero solving.

My thoughts are I don’t care since I can only elim one player today.

[MathBlade]

That’s require three scum back to back to back which imho is a bad idea.

I do think Titus should be forced to visit Marci though.

Mainly since Marci is the obvious kill I want to voyeur Marci again and see if Titus has any “extras”.

And then whoever is doing the kill then can’t be Titus which will help narrow shit down.

[MathBlade]

I wish I knew if Johnny's claim on one shot loyal BG is verifiable since I was just one-shot loyal BG, but I literally went on town and not mafia

I think the only thing close to it being verifiable would be to force titus to target johnny, but if Titus is scum it does not mean very much, and would require both of them to be allowed to live through the day

Ok, so I'm a 1-shot loyal bodyguard. I was unclear on if I still had my shot because it failed when chungo targeted Pooky.

I thought that meant I'd still have the opportunity to use it properly since I didn't actually guard any bodies, but I was mistaken. I didn't have an action to take last night

I was referring to this claim in particular

Mainly I think there’s just too much chaos around the slot. I don’t see a way that through mass claim we’d almost auto win if Johnny is town. I think it’s much more valuable to force Titus not to kill. If we elim Johnny then Titus visit someone and I force visit then if Titus is scum, scum PRs won’t be active if I follow the setup.

I don’t trust Titus to tell the truth.

[MathBlade]

What benifit of visiting marci who is most likely not lying about role (due being town), instead of anyone else?

Scum are likely going to kill Marci. Barring a ninja mod that will count as a visit.
Titus visits Marci. This is a visit.

Voyeur sees all visits.

If Titus is a combined X + rolecop then I see that as a voyeur as Titus would rolecop and X.
If the scum killing is combined killer and Y then I see X and Y as actions.

It’s a way to figure out a way to trust Titus. Between Johnny’s likely red flip and if any “extras” tells me who scum are. If there happens to be another doubled up protective who saves Marci even better.

I don’t trust her to tell the truth on Johnny as I think they are aligned. Going with the Titus checks Johnny and I voyeur Johnny means that Titus says whatever she wants and we likely elim town today and then have to elim scum only the rest of the game.

[MathBlade]

I'm sad this game turned into mech city over mafia and that's why I'm basically sitting here and waiting.

That’s very suspicious to me as I remember you being in mech conversations in the past.

Yes this turned mech heavy but the mech is important this game. Mafia is social + mech

[MathBlade]

not what i was going to say before, but if you guys are both town no matter when scum gets taken down the others will just let you leave because of the arguing causes enough thread noise to hide in such a "mechanical" game since you guys cant seem to get along.
so the town should stop step back from this fight for awhile. the town in you needs to be the bigger person if neither of you are getting eliminated today.

I think that doesn’t happen for scum.

Me Enchant and you are a hard confirmed block.

As close to Elo as we are scum have to keep killing in this block to have a chance.

[MathBlade]

Extra scum visit Marci because unless Titus is multitasking Marci won’t die otherwise.

I can voyeur her somewhere else but it’s suboptimal as we expect scum to have two PRs. If Titus is town then we need what PR they are.

If we go somewhere else I have to decide between getting possible information on scum or if Titus is a rolecop.

[MathBlade]

The problem I have is I feel if Johnny flips red we’re almost locked into a Titus elim barring something innoing her

But the smart play is to have me always visit Marci

Each time I look at it I keep getting Titus scum.

[MathBlade]

Extra scum visit Marci because unless Titus is multitasking Marci won’t die otherwise.

Well, unless Titus multitasking, Titus can't use rolecop AND kill. Makes sense.

So if Titus visits someone else (who ideally would be good rolecop check, so it's not wasted) and you vouyer someone else, then you still know Titus visited them, unless scum somehow fake that (which i hardly see possible).

So i think, Marci visit is not superiour and is actually harmful.

That’s one option.

However we lose out on a lot more if I don’t voyeur Marci.

Because we know that it’s very likely scum will be visiting her then we get information on scum.

Eg if it’s just a kill action then we get info scum have a goon (or someone who can’t multitask)

It’s either A) I check Titus and give up information on scum and likely she is still scum anyway
Or B) I can get some limited information on scum but Titus is still scum

It’s lose lose.

[MathBlade]

If you insist on it then we can elim Johnny then Titus announces who she is checking and I can voyeur there but it’s suboptimal

[MathBlade]

Because we know that it’s very likely scum will be visiting her then we get information on scum.

Like "killing action performed on marci"?

Oh no how we can miss that info.

You jest but if Titus is town then we likely have another scum PR out there. One that might be unable to use it’s power to avoid detection.

[MathBlade]

Because we know that it’s very likely scum will be visiting her then we get information on scum.

Like "killing action performed on marci"?

Oh no how we can miss that info.

You jest but if Titus is town then we likely have another scum PR out there. One that might be unable to use it’s power to avoid detection.

So if Titus is town, there's can be another scum PR, but instead of searching it, let's force Titus to stick on Marci.

galaxic

You’re so close to what the problem is it’s infuriating

If Titus is scum => Titus should not be able to do as she wishes as she’s likely rolecop + stuff.
If Titus is town => Titus should be able to act however she wishes

Scum likely kill Marci
If I am known to voyeur the slot they either have to send a goon or not use powers. If Titus is town then a scum with powers likely exists.

So in order to let a widely read scum player get a check off I have to act suboptimally and scum do whatever.

That’s just not ideal.

Titus needs to be trustworthy today and I don’t see that happening.

[MathBlade]

Can you really tell me someone who is actively advocating for not elimming their scumread is town?

[MathBlade]

What I find most likely is that it’s Johnny Titus and one of Luke/Cape

Titus is setting up a bus (because she has to) in order to go deep.

It’s just a matter of which. She doesn’t want to elim Johnny today because she wants us to guess all three correctly in a row.

[MathBlade]

First question: yes.

Then if “something else” comes up on the first case Titus then knows that there’s a scum PR that exists that did the kill. This means the vanillas did not do the kill that she already checked. It also leads towards a soft inno on the vanilla checks as if they had a vanilla kill they’d probably use it.

The “something else” just on Titus’s target that is not Marci means scum can kill with whoever and however they wish.

[MathBlade]

(Yes I wrote this as Titus town because I am trying desperately to see her town I just can’t)

[MathBlade]

At this point I kinda want to see the red flip of Johnny so that way can get Titus tomorrow so my give a fucks are fading fast the way she’s rewriting history.

Titus pick who you’re checking that’s not Marci so I can do the mechanically bad voyeur so I can elim you tomorrow please

[MathBlade]

I am getting fed up at arguing with the thread about what is mechanically right despite being proven right twice in a row now. So let’s do the wrong thing and move on.

[MathBlade]

I can then check bcg's role.

What I thought scum claim from Titus.

[MathBlade]

It was more scum denial than likely more info.

Denying scum with their limited options usually seems better to me. Like I am tired of arguing about it here.

@Titus —> Cape
Goal here is when Johnny flips as I think he will you have to confirm Cape as VT as I think he’s town.

Then you have a very narrow pool of miselims Maria/Toog to hunt for this other PR your solve will need for balance.

I don’t think you can pitch a team that works setupwise that doesn’t have you.

[MathBlade]

Johnny is hammered just waiting on flip

[MathBlade]

Cape vanilla. At dinner.

Titus has no additional mods assuming she’s the only one who visited. Working.

[MathBlade]

Based on setup spec has to be Titus or MariaR plus one of the vanillas. Maybe even both.

I don’t see two shot follower + 1 shot BG against this amount of power.

[MathBlade]

Cape vanilla. At dinner.

Titus has no additional mods assuming she’s the only one who visited. Working.

By mods I mean no additional actions I swear I can type

[MathBlade]

Can we not blow our last miselimination on obvious town that wagoned Pooky?

BCG Flipped scum.
Pooky wagon looks to be to save BGC.

I don’t find Pooky wagon starters townie

[MathBlade]

Spoiler:

vote count 2.5 !

PookyTheMagicalBear (4):

MariaR, Frogsterking, Big Chungus Gaming, Toogeloo

Titus (3):

Save The Dragons, MathBlade, Cape90

furtiveglance (2):

Enchant, marcistar

Big Chungus Gaming (1):

furtiveglance

Frogsterking (1):

PookyTheMagicalBear

not voting (3):

Not_Mafia, MalcolmTucker, Titus

with 14 alive, it takes 8 to blow someone up. day 2 ends in (expired on 2022-10-23 14:51:54)

modorator notes

• ba ba ba

This looks like SvS wagons too…

[MathBlade]

Math, if that was anyone else, you'd see scum trying to save their buddy.

Either you eliminate me to get your head screwed on straight or we eliminate my SRs.

There's only one town that can be off wagon and hit a scum. I'd rather it not be you but a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do.

Last post tonight. IRL Sadness

I get that, hence me not voting.

Other people can vote first so I can see if I am way off base or not.

[MathBlade]

That seems incorrect. Maria and I had a big fight about Pooky scum.

Ironically we were both pushing scum correctly.

[MathBlade]

I agree it does.

But your case and point is made better by using correct data points.

[MathBlade]

Disagree with the above

Shitty work day ahead

Wanna see where others vote

[MathBlade]

Based on setup spec has to be Titus or MariaR plus one of the vanillas. Maybe even both.

I don’t see two shot follower + 1 shot BG against this amount of power.

Why is Maria pulled out of the Vanilla claims to get her spot next to Titus here?

Because everyone else on that list was checked vanilla besides her and Toog. I TR Toog.

[MathBlade]

I am leaning pretty hard towards it being Titus, like ever since I got here it seemed like she has been trying to deflect wagons off of Johnny and onto me and johnny was scum.

And her just unflinchingly back at me sure is not doing anything to convince me otherwise.

I think that cape is unlikely to be partnered with titus, so seems likely to be Titus + [Maria/Toog]

Have you voted her?

[MathBlade]

Listening mode engaged.

Not voting anywhere at this time.

Concerns about me not voting can go in the circular file.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Titus

All my TRs agree. Let’s go.

[MathBlade]

titus' claim still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I think the claim was easy to make anyways. Also marci was quite literally another investigative this game anyways, and titus as another investigative with mathblade and Enchant as town seems pretty frozen wolf to me. Like they are only pointing fingers at the "scummiest" people versus what is actually mechanically viable

It was easy to CC someone for literally no gain?

Irrelevant. Had to CC whatever your alignment.

If Frogger checked you and you turned up role cop and didn’t it’s a guilty.

You hadn’t made up your mind that Frogger would die yet and there was a high likelihood you’d be checked.

[MathBlade]

titus' claim still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I think the claim was easy to make anyways. Also marci was quite literally another investigative this game anyways, and titus as another investigative with mathblade and Enchant as town seems pretty frozen wolf to me. Like they are only pointing fingers at the "scummiest" people versus what is actually mechanically viable

It was easy to CC someone for literally no gain?

Irrelevant. Had to CC whatever your alignment.

If Frogger checked you and you turned up role cop and didn’t it’s a guilty.

You hadn’t made up your mind that Frogger would die yet and there was a high likelihood you’d be checked.

Okay let's assume Titus is mafia.

What motivation of mafia killing rolecop, if every mafia so far claimed truthfully and can't be caught redhanded? Who they wanted to protect?

Titus because she’d be the invest that can find the important PR roles. She was being defensive the moment Frogger claimed.

There’s also the idea to protect BGC. We had a plan going Titus was against,

If Frogger I and NM all live Frogger checks BGC or Titus there’s two guilties,

[MathBlade]

BGC if didn’t visit town Pooky would be outed because of his suggestion.

But when NM claimed disloyal vig afterward then Pooky was dying.

So if BGC dies instead Pooky is confirmed scum who gets elimmed anyway.

[MathBlade]

Frog had a lot of influence. They are killing Frog, not Rolecop, otherwise Titus would have been as just a scary threat.

I disagree. Frog was killed due to role.

If Frog wasn’t killed there me v Frog would been incredibly proscum.

*still gobbles crow*

[MathBlade]

As i stated, one is likely mafia, but silent agreement on Titus cuts my nerves now.

Problem is, i don't understand motivation of scumteam at all.
Frog was killed when there was revealed Disloyal Vig and no revealed protectives.

Targeting Frog no matter how he was right Rolecop VS Disloyal Vig no matter how he was jestery is ??? play, unless mafia have way to shut down vig notlethally and they seems to be not. I didn't pay attention on this before, but seems like mafia claiming trully, especially if you want argue Titus!scum who are most likely are rolecop and would't fear other Rolecop. So they have no merit to kill rolecop from role perspective.

Frog needed to be

damn right

to be chosen, instead of loyal vig.


... Or mafia are not competent. Possible. MathBlade is actually competent... But i already was in game, where i blindly townreaded him when mafia made most bullshity claim just to get instakilled, and i was like "oh mathblade would suggest more belivable claim if he was mafia".
Yeah, Math was maf in this one. So while we both think about mech in priority, i have no clue how Math ticks. Even less i know about how Titus tick.

EIther way, i am not hammering yet. Need to think it over.

If Frog was shot because Rolecop and Titus was town >> Why is Titus not dead?
If Titus is town then Maria and Toog (would double check later I can’t remember if Luke is checked) are the only possible other PR scum.

We know that I am a voyeur you saw me
We know that Titus checked rest as VT.

Titus does not go after them.

This reads like Titus caught and avoiding spew

[MathBlade]

Then try again if you’re town.

I don’t think you can be.

Try again to explain Luke or Cape scum.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: MathBlade

I gived it enough thought, and my decision is final.

Cape is damn near locktown from my PoV. MalcolmTucker was too, and I hate that I didn't push against that harder. Cape isn't in my PoE, and the only way he gets Elimmed is if I get Night Killed.

But you are pushing Cape, which has never been in Frog's PoE. Maria was though, StD was as well, and Frog had a ton of skepticism over Math trying to out PRs while resolving Pooky.

Pushing Cape is where you lost me yesterday. Cape is town.

I don't think that Cape kills Toog here. Toog has cape lock towned and even suspected Titus for suspecting Cape. Toog was exactly who scum!Cape would want to take into ELo I think.

I think I might be wrong on Maria. I am now leaning Titus + Enchant after BCG's iso followed by the events of Day 4.

UNVOTE:

This is the last time that Toog mentioned Enchant, as part of his solve. Enchant has been fairly widely town read up until now, so he could see Toog as a threat.

I'm supporting MariaR elim.

VOTE: MariaR

I'm dying in this hill.

Toog was fairly strong on his Maria scum read for quite a while, although he did start to relent when he transitioned into that Titus+Enchant solve. With Titus's flip, it is fairly reasonable to think he might turn back on Maria.

I think the following players are for sure town...
NM
MT
Cape

Mostly ok with the following players...
Math (with some reservation)*
Marci

Last time Toog made a read statement about math, and that means that cape+math were toog's only two living town reads left from this list.

Cape and Math should not see Toog as a threat, Maria and Enchant could.

One of the former + one of the later might still kill toog to sure up the later. Definitely not cape+math tho.

Possible scum teams:

Cape+Math

Cape+Enchant
Cape+Maria
Math+Enchant
Math+Maria
Maria+Enchant

Cape + anyone feels less likely too, just because Cape would probably feel decent to end game with toog alive given the strength of his read. Like, even if their partner went down cape could arguably win a 3p Elo with Cape+Toog+1, either with toog leading into a cross with the other, or toog choosing cape if cape is crossed with the +1

Cape+Enchant
Cape+Maria

Math on the other hand might be concerned about answering why he is still alive at 3p, and thinks he needs to win now.


So, I am left at
Math+Enchant
Math+Maria
Maria+Enchant

Need to find 1 town in here.

Pedit: Enchant, why are you fucking voting already in Elo?

Lukewarm and Cape confirmed not teamed

[MathBlade]

I'm like pretty sure it's Luke/Enchant and I'm prob voting Luke today

I can agree on Enchant.

I don’t see why scum wouldn’t kill Enchant or me last night.

This means one of two possibilities:

A) Enchant is scum
B) Enchant and I are designed to 1v1 meaning the other scum won’t win if any are found.

Not killing in the two confirmed VTs is also weird.

I am trying to figure out how this balances mechanically and it doesn’t make sense.

Titus’s solve of Luke + Cape seems wrong or the game would be over already.

So I am currently on VLA so I don’t have a solve but I think I need to figure out why scum Kill Toog.

Toog wanted to die on the Maria scum hill.

Ugh everyone has sus

[MathBlade]

Unvoting in elo is extremely sus and Enchant is experienced enough to know better

Gun to my head it’s Maria Enchant.

I wish Titus had rolecopped Maria yes that’s my fault call me stupid later

[MathBlade]

I'm gonna look through Toog's iso, Cape I see that you are super gung ho about me being scum, but I am town and this is Elo, so if you are town maybe hold for a bit.

It's fine because it looks like we are solving between the claims first unless literally none of the PR claims are mafia

Do Maria and Luke look like team?

The answer to this would be no if you’re town because you voted me.

Intent to vote Enchant

[MathBlade]

Unvoting in elo is extremely sus and Enchant is experienced enough to know better

Excuse me

Correct.

Unvoting in elo is extremely sus

Plus if it was Maria and Luke like you pitched after voting me

Luke never tells you to Unvote because he wins.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Enchant

Good luck. I will try to answer as I can but I am on VLA.

[MathBlade]

God both Math and Enchant tried to save Pooky ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

But I stopped BGC from fake townfirming Pooky.

Yes I incorrectly TR’d Pooky
Yes I incorrectly scumread Marci.

But that overlooks the good I did.

I asked NM to shoot Pooky who townlocked me.

I correctly figured out 1 of the 2 had to be scum.

Yes Titus was a miselim yesterday but a necessary one for us to win because Titus was dead set on Luke/Cape to the point of asking obvious scum free.

I don’t claim to be perfect but I think my town motivation is clear in my posts.

[MathBlade]

The way I think you played this game Maria was strong

Definitely a Pooky/Koba/you gambit plan

You and Pooky were intentionally going after each other

If Pooky won the battle and was confirmed by BGC then you die and Pooky and BGC live while we tear each other apart
Then if Pooky lost the battle then you look good.

In the later days you didn’t have vigor

You shoulda been “yo I was proven right” and picked another player

But you’ve been quiet as fuck. Why?

Because we were eating ourselves alive

[MathBlade]

I don’t claim to be good. I just claim to always be trying to improve.

I think Pooky’s death was a premeditated gambit and why my reads were so wonky.

[MathBlade]

I think it’s Enchant and Maria
But tbh it’s probably not going to be up to me on the last scum.

The way I see it is either
A> Elim Enchant and kill me as I am conf
B> Elim me and gg

I think Enchant and his scumbuddy thought they could get a quick win by voting me early that they forgot about elo rules and you can’t Unvote once you voted.

In my heart of hearts I really feel it was a planned gambit.

I hope you make the right choice but feel free to ask anything you need to make it.

And if you pick wrong no worries it’s just a game

[MathBlade]

No wait, Cape will die and then Math will be like "CAN'T SEE WHY I LIVED" *Votes Maria*

If that happened it would be

Hey look I am conf town cross vote. Then I very very slowly listen

[MathBlade]

It’s the opposite.

Everyone pretty much could tell we needed to elim Johnny.

Titus was continually pitching not to.

Titus said she had it solved.

I did not trust her and thought she was flipping red and more power than she was based on her play and her bad checks.

Notice how she listened to Enchant (who is conf scum on who to check) if Titus had worked with me the check on Cape would have been unnecessary and we could have potentially seen more information on scum.

I didn’t force one on her.

[MathBlade]

Only worked because I copped Enchant.

Game's basically in marci+Enchant hands now if you still won't listen.

Nah. I literally see it. Enchant claimed double before today and gave me stink eye telling me Enchant was voyeur.

You literally did a useless check,

Enchant literally asked me to cop them...

Lukewarm and Cape are literally trying to shut this conversation down....

[MathBlade]

Then I can check Marci with my plan.

You and BCG/Johnny on Luke still sets up power. NM shooting Marci is your ideal world too.

I am not letting the scum partner check their buddy.

NM shoot Marci I voyeur Marci Johnny visit Marci is the only way to reliably check both. If you like you can check Johnny.

We agree NM shoots Marci, so why vote her?

We can confirm Johnny and Luke tonight with this information.

You actually need to listen.

You said yourself that scum have no roleblocker.

So play out every scenario.

There's no way scum engame if we have Johnny and you go to Luke. I think you know that though.

She kept pitching me+Luke or Luke+Cape

She kept pushing it and begging for Johnny’s life repeatedly

I can’t find it on my phone but she when asked the third scum begrudgingly put Johnny

Once she made her mind up its scummy to disagree with her

[MathBlade]

You are fully aware Titus flipped town right?

Yes.

I was explaining what she was doing.

You said I forced a hero solve on her. The opposite is true she was forcing a hero solve on the game

I was just trying to elim Johnny.

[MathBlade]

Idk what elo rules, you probably should point at them, but you will not.

Because they don't exist.

Most sites actual lock votes on elo
Mafia Universe is one.

The rule you don’t Unvote is very common

Gamma just got bit by that in Lost that just finished

[MathBlade]

viewtopic.php?p=13516410#p13516410

Seriously I just wasn’t at a place I could.

[MathBlade]

Post game or dead thread I forget which and am about to go into a meeting specifically called it out too

[MathBlade]

Idk what elo rules, you probably should point at them, but you will not.

Because they don't exist.

Most sites actual lock votes on elo
Mafia Universe is one.

The rule you don’t Unvote is very common

Gamma just got bit by that in Lost that just finished

We are not on Mafia Universe and i don't care.

Pressuring point like someone can't unvote for some mystic reason (people could for example change mind, bait mafia on quickhammer, etc) is obvious scum. As well as emojis Math suddenly started using like "no worries if you fuck up".


Fairly, only reason why i unvoted because i was asked.

You unvoted because you realized it was a losing endeavor and Luke gave you an out.

Never ever vote in elo. That’s been seriously established

Luke is newer than you. I get his ask. But you’ve been around way too long.

[MathBlade]

Idk what elo rules, you probably should point at them, but you will not.

Because they don't exist.

Most sites actual lock votes on elo
Mafia Universe is one.

The rule you don’t Unvote is very common

Gamma just got bit by that in Lost that just finished

We are not on Mafia Universe and i don't care.

Pressuring point like someone can't unvote for some mystic reason (people could for example change mind, bait mafia on quickhammer, etc) is obvious scum. As well as emojis Math suddenly started using like "no worries if you fuck up".


Fairly, only reason why i unvoted because i was asked.

Never ever vote in elo. That’s been seriously established

By who

Whole site. Site meta.

It’s why elos drag on for a while.

[MathBlade]

MathBlade over here shaming who should be scum from his POV over meta

It’s not shaming it’s demonstrating he is scum.

I know he is scum as the game isn’t over so anything I can do to show that helps.

[MathBlade]

hmmm... going through each scum looking at enchant's name, and I felt good about it still with chungus and math.

But this johnny stuff feels to me like he is awkwardly trying to figure out if he really does have a guilty on him or not...

Spoiler:

Hello! Who wants to catch me up on gamestate?

I am Cop with guilty on you.

I found scum already! Hot shit

Wait is Enchant serious then? Why does Mal have votes?

I have 1 shot

Wait is Enchant serious then? Why does Mal have votes?

I have 1 shot

Mal has votes because Mal didn’t play the way scum Titus expected

So he’s getting run up as a VT.

I meant if Enchant was claiming a guilty on me I'd expect a lot more votes in my direction. Or better yet, votes in Enchant's direction since I'm not actually guilty

And like, clearly Johnny did not really know the role lay out of the game yet since he messed up his own claim for how many shots he had.

Johnny imho was designed to die.

Enchant never had a guilty based on his role.

A guilty would have been BGC visiting Pooky.

Johnny never gave a read ever.

[MathBlade]

Cape, I think that we should just vote Enchant here. If it is Math, then I guess he deserves the win

I see many letters, but can i get TL/DR why you don't believe me?

I mean, my points were basically:

~Chungus soft defended you

~Pooky avoided commenting on you at all until he was in danger of elimination

~Pooky looks not partnered with Math.

~Math could have let Titus elim me at some point.

lol it's DkKoba alt. No explaination needed.

Considering how i lurk games, i am not surprised.

Too bad, because he is. Math is very nasty on this part, he also got me confused at first, because i presumed that Titus could fail at killing disloyal vig, but Math never does this error. That's kinda tipped my decision to hammer Titus. I should had insisted and i didn't. Again: Math dictated who vig will shot. Not me. Of course he doesh't fear keeping Vig alive.

I don't know how math ticks still, but maybe there's reason why he didn't?

I suggested NM kill Pooky because while I TR’d him I was still listening to the arguments.

A townfirm Pooky is a player to be feared for scum. So I tried to make someone better than me townfirm.

The suggestion assuming NM BGC and Pooky all town would have confirmed 3 people town to me then inevitably me. There was no better place than Pooky

[MathBlade]

My guess is scum didn’t expect a disloyal vig.

[MathBlade]

But did expect a vig

[MathBlade]

My guess is scum didn’t expect a disloyal vig.

Which claimed

Which claimed AFTER BGC

[MathBlade]

afteer my.last game.i guess i don't have that same drive after falling flat for getting pushed.
kinda out of this game so imma claim im.loyal bg, if theres a vig this can combo nicely.
I can create a clear potentially and yeah.

I'd like to get STD and i can BG pooky tonight

nM’s is in the mid 80 page range

[MathBlade]

Scum wanted to gambit using me as the pocket

BG confirms Pooky then I announce they have the same alignment and boom ball game

Instead NM shoots Pooky dead

[MathBlade]

Scum wanted to gambit using me as the pocket

BG confirms Pooky then I announce they have the same alignment and boom ball game

Instead NM shoots Pooky dead

AND SURVIVES.

Which is point.

Pooky surviving = scum claim when BGC flips

I love how you’re playing dumb.

You’re literally proving my point

Good night.

I hope Luke and Cape see it’s Maria + Enchant

[MathBlade]

to me math feels more calculated which is the hold up for me but honestly, I think we go Enchant

I always will feel that way because I am as either alignment.

It’s how I am as a person.

I’d expect to look more calculated than a (likely) NT person.

[MathBlade]

I have about a 2-3 hour phone call about to happen. Can’t respond to rest but I view mafia as a strategy game in a lot of ways.

[MathBlade]

If any of you three want to say why I'm wolf by all means try that'll be fun.

You mafia

Yeah this sums up most of the cases on me. B)

It’s actually that you all planned a gambit to push Pooky
With the idea to fake townfirm him with loyal BCG/Johnny

If you elim him you all get cred.
If you don’t elim him but fake confirm him then you get cred.
The idea relied on him getting voyeur checked but never shot.

I think scum knew of a vig but not the disloyal part or didn’t expect them to claim and shoot Pooky.

I think your scum team just got bit.

I am sure you all

[MathBlade]

Wow fuck my phone

I am sure you all had a planned gambit based on the D2 play which is why I had a failsafe because I TR’d Pooky but something was up

[MathBlade]

This conveniently discounts the BGC wagon was on scum.

You pushed Pooky instead to “townfirm” him.

It just fits.

[MathBlade]

Luke is a villager because I TRd him
If Luke was scum he’d have been trying not to elim Johnny or lurking like you

I don’t think it’s productive to go back and forth with you.

If we elim Enchant today then realistically I die or my PoE shrinks to two and they cross vote.

Arguing with you about it today isn’t the right call.

If you’re sure on Enchant then vote him.

If you’re not ask me questions to sort me.

[MathBlade]

We learn from who scum kill after Enchant’s flip then later

[MathBlade]

I don’t think anyone should be aiming to convince me here because I would likely be dead tonight.

Instead you Luke and Cape should be talking

[MathBlade]

You could've said you have no reasonable counterargument and left it at that tbh.

I believe my prior posts addressed those points.

It is useless to repeat the same things.

[MathBlade]

And you think i am teamed with MariaR?

Why

This also feels like busy work.

Like you already asked me why I thought math was scum over you, and I responded.

I also explained why I think that Maria is scum too.

It kind of just feels like you don't actually know how to properly defend yourself, but you are not wanting to just *give up* so you are just asking pointless questions.

Exactly.

We just need to decide between me and Enchant. Hopefully Enchant is elimmed so we have a game.

Then scum can kill overnight and the people who live can expend thought capital then.

[MathBlade]

"I'll be dead" you don't know that

"You're mafia" who the hell cares it'll help prove it to other people and you don't even know that are you so far in a tunnel? My lord

It’s a matter of a simple analysis

I don’t have to hero solve.

You are my top suspect but the main energy is sorting me and Enchant for the game. I don’t have to decide between the three of you which has been my entire point. I am deliberately not deciding ergo can’t be tunnelled. I have my opinion but you’re representing it as way stronger than it is.

Do I know I will be dead? No of course not

But as I already explained if I am not dead the other two just cross vote and then I sort between two people versus three.

[MathBlade]

I am absolutely trying but from my POV it’s either
I’ll be dead => Better sorters can Duke it out
Or B=> I am alive and then those two cross and I sort between a 50/50 than a 33/33/33

[MathBlade]

There’s absolutely no reason to get into a spat with you.

I have a theory for what scum did.

You’re saying you wouldn’t do it as scum.

If you’re town then you agree with the point
If you’re scum it’s deflection

I wrote posts for everyone involved.

[MathBlade]

If I am alive then tomorrow when it matters we can discuss that idea.

Then I can go back and look at Toog who lock scummed you
And look at Titus who lock scummed Luke

But there is absolutely no point in locking in any opinion for me today.

There just isn’t

It’s the exact opposite of tunnelled

[MathBlade]

Why does me not deciding annoy you?

[MathBlade]

I feel like you’re expressing frustration at a version of me that’s not even present and is imho unwarranted.

Enchant lockscummed himself to me and that has proven true.

Everything after that is a guesstimate/likely.

Given that no one is sussing Cape, Cape is probably town.

Leaving the scum between the two of you.

The scum in the two of you is deciding whether to bus Enchant is my guess.

You imho are that scum. But I could be wrong so thankfully I don’t have to decide right now.

[MathBlade]

Then ask questions regarding me and Enchant.

I fail to see how whether I SR or TR you helps you solve me?

The only questions I see from you are “Math doesn’t TR me” and asking questions along that end which feels really scummy.

[MathBlade]

The game is literally up to you three so you three should be the main ones talking.

I 100% know enchant is scum now because of what happened.

If I spam the thread with it then town cohesion can’t happen.

[MathBlade]

Then ask questions regarding me and Enchant.

I fail to see how whether I SR or TR you helps you solve me?

The only questions I see from you are “Math doesn’t TR me” and asking questions along that end which feels really scummy.

Just because you fail to see how I process how I work doesn't mean it doesn't help me. Ya know, just how I'm failing to process your line of thinking but I'm not instantly calling you a wolf for it. People think differently ya know. It doesn't matter if you don't understand it, because my align in this process doesn't matter as you yourself said.

Also the only thing you've said is "gambit" I have not seen like, bullet proof reasons on why Enchant is a night 3 kind of your role and is a wolf because your Iso doesn't support the claim. Even if they voted first there was barely a "hey I think you're a villager don't"

Like, why should I be voting Enchant rn what have you done that is out of your range or you wouldn't have done here or is super wolfy.

Going in reverse order as that’s easier.
There is nothing (to me) that is outside my wolf meta. I don’t believe in tells of any kind so this is always my answer and I consistently work on merging the two.

Quite simply put for the N3 version this setup is designed to have people suspect each other the wrong way:
1 shot loyal BG = scum
N3 voyeur = scum
No scum rolecop

This was designed due to sheer number of investigatives to have mass claim and a way for scum to get out of it.
Besides the vig (which the BG was a clue for scum) there’s no other threat PRs and mostly vanilla.

Scum Koba and Scum Pooky are absolutely known for doing the gambit I think happened especially with an unknown player like BGC. I focus on narratives to find scum. That is the narrative I pointed out and stopped with the Pooky shot. Whether you are the fourth scum is debatable but there is evidence I have quoted that’s exactly what scum were doing.

And yes I fail to see how not talking about me or Enchant solves me or Enchant.

[MathBlade]

In brighter news, I got a promotion at work today so we're living large.
Pedit: Who cares if you spam the thread it's final 5 we need to try and solve in you two and you shutting up and not doing anything, does not help. You answering my questions? That helps. Why is it so hard for you to cooperate I just, don't get it.

I am cooperating. Why is it so hard for you to focus on me or Enchant and not ask useless questions that seem to be fake solving?

[MathBlade]

Congrats on the promotion btw.

[MathBlade]

I am voyeur

If three invests claim to visit person x and I voyeur target X, I get told 3 invests visit target X

If scum use a rolestopper all three invests know there is a scum roleblocker

If I get two or less then we know either A) there is a scum roleblocker or B) person lied.

If we get exact amount then that’s tantamount to a cop on that person because they will have been followed/tracked/voyeured/who knows what else

I see some merit, but it can and probably will backfire.

I am on mobile so give me a few posts.

[MathBlade]

afteer my.last game.i guess i don't have that same drive after falling flat for getting pushed.
kinda out of this game so imma claim im.loyal bg, if theres a vig this can combo nicely.
I can create a clear potentially and yeah.

I'd like to get STD and i can BG pooky tonight

[MathBlade]

BCG should protect NM cuz NM is the stronger TPR

NM can conftown me by himself

[MathBlade]

NM don't worry about visiting Pooky we're going to kill him today. Just vote him instead and do whatever you want tonight.

this feels so desperate

theres actually no reason for you to care that much about voting me out over me being visited and sorted by a disloyal vigilante on night two unless you think i'm some kind of scum power role that's important but you already clearly stated you think i'm a scum follower

Quite honestly I am debating BGC who claimed loyal and NM both visiting you.

I just have to run through the if statements.

[MathBlade]

Disloyal vig usually is a scum troll claim. Fits with theme of not being believable.

Enchant here specifically warned that in 1977 using my voyeur for accountability would backfire.
This is because at this point scum were going to use BGG to fake confirm Pooky and BCG.
1992 voices this out loud.
2100 by Pooky is an attempt to get out of the wagon while saving BGC to potentially be used later.
Then 2108 is trying to give BGC an out.

In what world do I pin three scum by myself? In what world do I suggest to Frog that Pooky and BGC are scum together on D1 as proven later? Using your own words that is ridiculous.

[MathBlade]

My guess is scum from their roles (or have an informed role) that told them there’s a vig.

They just didn’t account for disloyal and scrambling.

[MathBlade]

Basically, I think Frog has a higher chance of flipping scum than BCG.

For them to be partners, they had to stage an entirely pointless argument that only made both of them look worse, and I suppose if you want to argue they have a big enough ego to do that, sure. What am I missing about BCG because it seems like you're confident on that to some degree.

Posts like this are really bad in hindsight.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Pooky

Say less

This really feels like you’re the one orchestrating the “confirm Pooky” plan here

Especially with the say less comment.

I was in a death tunnel for BGC and rightfully so

You needed that not to happen so then you’re forced into it.

[MathBlade]

Losing your (likely) only defense against a vig or an almost used two shot follower it makes sense that you’d push him.

[MathBlade]

afteer my.last game.i guess i don't have that same drive after falling flat for getting pushed.
kinda out of this game so imma claim im.loyal bg, if theres a vig this can combo nicely.
I can create a clear potentially and yeah.

I'd like to get STD and i can BG pooky tonight

what do you think this means in terms of Lukewarm's slot?

It points toward StD being town.
However I can make a case for Luke scum too.

I can make good cases for Luke or Maria scum.

You on the other hand not so much which matches peoples play.

However if I live to tomorrow I reevaluate that.

[MathBlade]

However since scum were likely gambiting it can be argued that they all went at each other:

So it’s not as airtight as I would like.

[MathBlade]

Nah Toog’s been pretty Townie all game imho.

Luke is definitely Townier in play than StD (I know same slot)

I’d rather tbh whoever is left solve it but my order scum to town is Maria > Luke > Cape

But others are smarter than me in some ways

[MathBlade]

I think that it’s going to be a tomorrow sort there.

Whichever way has townies thinking one way or the other and I think town will forgive us if we guess wrong as it’s a game. I think it can be figured out. Do you favor Luke over Maria as last scum?

[MathBlade]

So Enchant claims scum.

Didn’t want Cape to answer. Cape and I lock town.

[MathBlade]

Okay Cape not quite lock town but pretty close.

[MathBlade]

If you’re still here Cape info dump please in case you’re killed.

[MathBlade]

I have a movie and work and can’t or I would

[MathBlade]

something i plan to implement the next time i modorate a game is like some way for mafia to highlight stuff for their replacements. in principle, nothing is stopping mafia from literally just doing this themselves in the scum pt, but also nobody plans around having to replace out in the future and also nobody gives a fuck about the game the second they decide to replace out. here's a writeup of how i'd put it in the rules

[some note in the setup post] (starting) in this game, i'll be giving mafia the ability to make a diary of messages to send to any future replacements to their slot. this is primarily to aid in keeping track of things like fakeclaims, and should have limited effect on gameplay. Im simply disclosing it. mafia should still look out for things their predecessors forgot or neglected to highlight (i'm not helping with this*)

[in the mafia PT] you can keep a list of notes for any future replacements. if you put "

highlight

" at the top of any of your posts in this PT, i'll send a list of those highlighted posts in the role PM i send to anybody that may replace your slot in the future. you are encouraged to do this to record any roles or actions you fakeclaim in the main thread. (as always, i automatically inform replacements of actions you did truthfully take).

*i think it just barely leans towards mod influence if i literally just keep track of fakeclaims myself. i think the aspect of it where i'm like personally doing the players' job doesn't really matter if i do it consistently because it doesn't really have a way to tip off info to anyone, but of course i might forget to do it sometimes and maybe it causes me to be more keen on the players' claims which in turn puts me more at risk of accidentally communicating something to someone.

really, messing up a fakeclaim because you replaced is just something that shouldnt ever happen. it's just like annoying extra work to have to do when you replace into a scum slot which i think people already don't like doing, and it's easy enough to mess up, and it feels like out of game influence. theres a small extent i'm willing to let a good guy with OGI beat a bad guy with OGI and do the extra work myself but also i dont want to. lol.

this is something from the mod thread that i wonder if anyone would have thoughts about

I think it comes down more to replacement experience and scum team health.
First thing a scum player should do on a replace in is “Hey tldr hit me with important crap before I read” especially in a game with a lot of content. It’s a learning experience. I feel his slot was doa anyway the mistake was just one thing.

If the scum team is apathetic then it doesn’t help. What we need is like a scum refresher on site imho.

[MathBlade]

I thought we lost, but when i saw Luke opening at day, i decided we have fighting chance and Luke managed. I am amazed honestly.

Now i want to post it before titus comes to roast MathBlade: you did well, everyone.
Being wrong is part of this.

Thanks Enchant I really have been trying to work on cooperating more. Glad it’s not a dunk on me fest.

Sorry I was wrong. I am also sorry I gave the impression I was sure on Maria I said I would be reevaluating if I lived.

[MathBlade]

That was the good things I had to say about the game. The players were all excellent.

However, I cannot fathom how this set up passed review

mafia 2-shot follower
mafia 1-shot loyal bodyguard
mafia night 3 voyeur
1x Goon

V

town novice disloyal vigilante
town fruit vendor
town voyeur
town novice joat (roleblocker, alien, tracker)
town rolecop
town 4-shot rolecop
town even-night combined doctor tracker
5x VTs

This is the most "fuck you scum team" set up I have ever personally seen in a game. The 2 shot follower was basically our only useful pr, with the night 3 voyeur being fairly useless, and the 1-shot loyal bodyguard was an actively harmful role.

If it the BG ever worked, we... still lost scum, and gave a guilty to the vig. If we holster, the loyal modifier means we are fucked if forced to coordinate with the voyeur.

and on the flip side, the town had a disloyal vigilante (which is possibly the strongest possible town PR?) + a doc + 5 invest type roles.


A Disloyal Vigilante existing, along side a protective, in a game where the scum team did not have any form or ways to influence (roleblock, jailkeeper, scum doc, strongman, SOMETHING) that is pretty messed up


And I kind of worry that since the scum team won, no one who approved this set up will even care to listen to the fact that this set up was bad for the scum team. But it was. We won DESPITE that, largely because town got so lost in the messed up mechanics of this game that they floundered for a few day phases.

This game makes me want to steer away from the Normal Queue so long as set ups like this are getting passed by review.

Anyways.

Rant over.

I tend to agree with that with the exception of all the “can’t this all be town there” really worked in scum’s favor.

I think maybe a 1 shot vig soup would balance but that’s not normal.

[MathBlade]

The BG just has to “miss” on a tow player early and not recommend themselves to guard a buddy.

It’s meant as an inno to rolecops not actually used

I don’t think people reviewing expected me to break the setup like I did

[MathBlade]

something i plan to implement the next time i modorate a game is like some way for mafia to highlight stuff for their replacements. in principle, nothing is stopping mafia from literally just doing this themselves in the scum pt, but also nobody plans around having to replace out in the future and also nobody gives a fuck about the game the second they decide to replace out. here's a writeup of how i'd put it in the rules

[some note in the setup post] (starting) in this game, i'll be giving mafia the ability to make a diary of messages to send to any future replacements to their slot. this is primarily to aid in keeping track of things like fakeclaims, and should have limited effect on gameplay. Im simply disclosing it. mafia should still look out for things their predecessors forgot or neglected to highlight (i'm not helping with this*)

[in the mafia PT] you can keep a list of notes for any future replacements. if you put "

highlight

" at the top of any of your posts in this PT, i'll send a list of those highlighted posts in the role PM i send to anybody that may replace your slot in the future. you are encouraged to do this to record any roles or actions you fakeclaim in the main thread. (as always, i automatically inform replacements of actions you did truthfully take).

*i think it just barely leans towards mod influence if i literally just keep track of fakeclaims myself. i think the aspect of it where i'm like personally doing the players' job doesn't really matter if i do it consistently because it doesn't really have a way to tip off info to anyone, but of course i might forget to do it sometimes and maybe it causes me to be more keen on the players' claims which in turn puts me more at risk of accidentally communicating something to someone.

really, messing up a fakeclaim because you replaced is just something that shouldnt ever happen. it's just like annoying extra work to have to do when you replace into a scum slot which i think people already don't like doing, and it's easy enough to mess up, and it feels like out of game influence. theres a small extent i'm willing to let a good guy with OGI beat a bad guy with OGI and do the extra work myself but also i dont want to. lol.

this is something from the mod thread that i wonder if anyone would have thoughts about

I tend to replace into late stage games like this because the spots don't always get taken, and yeah this would be super helpful

If you’re interested feel free to DM me

I have a script sometimes that helps me dive in. Won’t always work but it’s a good start

[MathBlade]

This is the most "fuck you scum team" set up I have ever personally seen in a game

Just to put more words to this. Because I cannot help myself.

There was no scum play around the super vigilante. It plus the existence of town a town protective is what really did it. I am aware that the protective was even night, but that does not matter, because once the scum realize there is a doc, they have to assume that the doc is going to be on the vig for ever, and can never target the vig until the doc dies. No way to know that it was even night

Also, 2 different (basically) full town role cop makes any and all fake claiming a death sentence, with no way for scum to know that in advance. Because, it turns out, by the end of the game, basically every slot will be role coped. And this could lead to a guilty even with seemingly "safe" fake claims, like just... not saying that your body guard effect was loyal because you don't want to be caught by voyeur coordination.

Scum had no counterplay for the super vigilante, were completely unable to fake claim with no way to know that, and basically all of their useful abilities locked into a single, 2 shot, role.

While town had a bajillion tprs.

I think with the current site meta this is very townsided for it.

The review team took the multipr as way more powerful than it should have.

Like I said needed a 1 shot soup or factionals.

[MathBlade]

This is another immediate first-ballot inductee into the NRG Hall of Fame. At some point we should just give up the ghost and play mafia the way god intended, spamming Mountainous and D&C/Coalition.

This definitely has changed some of how I play in the future for sure.

As for hall of fame I could see this for the scum team’s play (esp Luke) but for the setup no.

[MathBlade]

Spoiler:

However, I cannot fathom how this set up passed review

in various places, i've talked about the difficulties in making a normal setup that doesn't, uh, suck. maybe more specifically i think it might be true that every investigative role makes the game worse. i try to come up with fun ways for them to exist in setups, because people seem to want to have them - i think there's an appeal to feeling like "we can catch most of the wolves and then maybe the investigative can spot us the hard one". but that's kind of a Cop out, like a way to prevent towns from having to deal with the fear of any particular person being really good as mafia. and i think they're also just a bummer.

what makes investigatives a bummer for mafia in particular is that the #1 thing you always have to do in order to play around them well, is to figure out who has what role without them telling you. imagine a setup that's just 13 vs 4 where everyone is vanilla except for one cop. i dont think anyone would claim to have a problem with that setup (on non-balance reasons - in practice you'd call it scumsided), but it also sucks a lot for scum. sometimes the cop stays alive for a long time and gets a lot of results, just on the basis that scum weren't able to pick the right person to shoot. a common idea is to give scum a roleblocker to "deal with" whatever role, but what it actually does is just let you pick a next-best choice for who is a PR, and so the exact same problem remains: how do you figure out who is a PR? in all my time modding i can't think of a single person that could do that convincingly (probably it has happened but it's more of an exception. it's not a skill that visibly and commonly exists in the way that e.g. finding scum is)

i kind of like having vigilantes, because they publicly show information that helps identify them. if NM hadnt claimed n2, mafia could be like: who the fuck would shoot pooky? although, i guess they'd be working from partial information given that they didn't know the vig was disloyal.

adding a roleblocker to this setup has this enjoyability issue, where it doesn't actually change the outcome of the vig's action most of the time. meaning, even if you do the impossible and correctly select the right person to roleblock, most of the time they will emerge saying "aha! i have cleared this person as town" and be accidentally correct. and then on the other hand when they do it correctly and the vig shoots scum, it sucks a lot for town, possibly even up to the point of making the rest of the game just moot because there's an incorrect inno. i think doctor has similar problems although it's sort of easier for scum to use at least. i think it's a flaw in the setup that there's some occasions where the vig claims and then there's the whole doctoring problem, although those will happen rather infrequently. but to me, roleblocker and doctor don't seem like the way to do it. i could do something where i tape over the cracks a bunch of times by making the vig macho (i think strongman is problematic) and then informing scum that the vig is macho, and then doing something to the doctor that prevents them from wasting their shot on the vig (because that sucks to do), and then adding a bunch of pointless informs to town so that it doesn't seem like a scum characteristic to have "informed" in your role, and then etc etc. but more realistically i think i just eliminate a bunch of options from my future setups, which makes them blander but i guess i don't mind that. disloyal in particular just seems like it sucks. i've advised against it in past reviews but i thought id try it this time. woops. of course, the fact that i'm saying this in general tips my hand as far as designing future setups and there might be a time that scum fakeclaims disloyal in one of them and somebody remembers "oh schadd didnt want to use disloyal anymore" and so maybe i have to say in my rules post that i dont use disloyal. well, maybe i will. i dont know.

there's a bunch of other little quibbles i could make regarding the minor PRs in the setup - i think the voyeur and the rolecops don't actually help town very much (and they probably accelerate the rate at which town roles get revealed to the public), and chungus correctly notes that they found a way to deal with the baggage from loyal bodyguard (at which point they get to bask in the status of having what sounds like a town role). as scum you probably shouldnt ever actually use it. this is all what i think anyway. i kind of persist in thinking this setup is fine for scum in a purely numbers way but idk how i'd get anyone else to think so & i wouldn't really aim to controvert someone wanting to stop playing normals (when theme setups suck, they're usually interesting at least). and i've spent far too long here anyway. i always read people's complaints about the setup and i think about them whenever i make a setup i think about the potential problems it has and how i can mitigate the complaints people had from the last game, and then i run it and there's a new cycle of complaints. thats how it feels anyway.

I think that just... not having the vigilante being disloyal would have been the first step to fixing this setup. I have not put a lot of thought into the disloyal modifier on the whole, but on the surface I feel like it can work on a role other then Vig, but you are super charging an already strong PR. Like a disloyal vig is a magnitude stronger then a cop imo. Your comments on the issues that something like a scum doc or a scum roleblocker would create would be completely moot if that modifier was not on the vig.

But IF you are going ot give something like that to town, you NEED to give scum SOMETHING.

i kind of persist in thinking this setup is fine for scum in a purely numbers way but idk how i'd get anyone else to think so

I disagree with this, and it feels like your numbers have a built in assumption that town will play their roles poorly, which is a bad assumption to build into balance imo.

But I am going to skip past the numbers, because firstly, I don't care to sit down and run them. But also the numbers are not the only thing that matter in a designing a game.

Me, enchant, Koba, and pooky have all told you that this set up felt bad to play as scum in. "But the numbers say its ~fine~" does not change that. This set up felt BAD to be scum in, and this is coming from someone who PREFERS to be scum. I don't normally feel that way when I roll scum.

This is a setup design which makes an entire faction feel like it is a poorly designed set up. In my opinion, it making the entire faction feel that way proves that it is true.

I enjoy way more scum as town
Town just feels like you get yelled at all the time and become numb to it.

But that being said I think this would have sucked to be scum in.

Balance is about agency.

This had the same problem as Calculasia. Scum don’t have the freedom to breathe.

[MathBlade]

This is another immediate first-ballot inductee into the NRG Hall of Fame. At some point we should just give up the ghost and play mafia the way god intended, spamming Mountainous and D&C/Coalition.

This definitely has changed some of how I play in the future for sure.

As for hall of fame I could see this for the scum team’s play (esp Luke) but for the setup no.

I think that she meant that sarcastically math lol

(See her conclusion that it would have been better to have just done mountainous)

Oh I thought she was serious in that play mattered over mechanics.

My sarcasm detector is broken.

[MathBlade]

I don’t think people reviewing expected me to break the setup like I did

how did you break the setup?

NM disloyal vig + Loyal BG + voyeur = confirm three alignments

[MathBlade]

Like for this setup it was remarkably protown to mass claim.

Scum should have curb stomped us in a balanced setup.

[MathBlade]

If everyone mass claimed D1 assuming vig/voyeur not elimmed

D1 vig+voyeur hit same target. Loyal BG “protects” NM or gets outed. So sure they can get rid of vig on d1 but in exchange a scum team loses one BG gets and two conf towns (voyeur and check) or loses BG and another scum dies and voyeur conf town.

I don’t think that works well

[MathBlade]

The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.

Luke's slot was such obvious scum but King Math said no so town lost.

Omg what is your deal?

Seriously I died and said I was unsure EoD.

Seriously you tried taking the elim away from conf scum for your opinion

I wasn’t king math I was cooperatey and liked Math

[MathBlade]

the only thing that was needed to "break" the setup was for the disloyal vig to claim on d2 and ask for protection and the protective to stay quiet and protect him because the mafia team has literally no way to interact with that.

we would've fired on the vig because we have no expectation there should be a protective given that we have no counterplay to the vig, our nightkill would've failed and then we would've promptly gotten stomped into the dirt even if we managed multiple mislims because lol disloyal vig?!

I really appreciate giving the mafia team a "loyal one shot bodyguard" as the only way to "interact" with a town disloyal vigilante.

It was kind of a extra hard "go fuck yourself" role.

Congrats to Luke/Enchant you both played lights out amazing in this game and especially to Maria who led multiple eliminations on scum and almost singlehandedly carried the town to the win.

Fair. I still think N2 claim resulting in unavoidable 3 shots breaks it worse than N1 but yeah.

[MathBlade]

Still broken that way too very much a blah setup.

[MathBlade]

I feel like my elimination was pretty unfortunate. When people start to claim next time, should I just straight up claim? I didn't really want to, I wanted to hide D:

I think this depends on your role.

If you’re a scummy role (or one perceived as such) fake claiming can be disastrous but holding off can be okay if played right.

The main issue I had was that you fake claimed and were caught by a rolecop which is very like a guilty that you had to be elimmed at that point.

[MathBlade]

You could hold off and say “nope not gonna” if it’s protown to do so but be prepared to explain later but also give something to the discussion.

Like a “not yet because (something moves game forward)”

[MathBlade]

The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.

Luke's slot was such obvious scum but King Math said no so town lost.

Sorry I couldn’t bring it home always nice when we find each other villa <3

Sorry I misread you Maria

[MathBlade]

I feel like my elimination was pretty unfortunate. When people start to claim next time, should I just straight up claim? I didn't really want to, I wanted to hide D:

I agree, I think ultimately most of the burden falls on Math and I rather than yourself.

Math forced a mass claim at a time it was suboptimal so that he could use his role like an investigator, and I didn't seriously consider that you may have claimed VT because you weren't sure what else to do.

I think you were for the most part caught in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario because the two loudest players (Math and I) were not handling the situation effectively.

I disagree.

I think my reads were poor but mechanics spot on since I was the talk of killing me in the PT.

If you fake claim fake well otherwise reap the consequences.

[MathBlade]

I called D1 than Chungus was scum.

GG all.

I sheeped you