Night Watch Open 95 - Game Over before 703

[StrangerCoug]

I hereby understand and confirm my role.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: Panda Stomper 85

until he tells me what happened to Panda Stompers 1 through 84.

[StrangerCoug]

Once again,

vote: Panda Stomper 85

until he tells me what happened to Panda Stompers 1 through 84.

[StrangerCoug]

I didn't suggest they should claim

I suggested it was one way they could play their role

And I really don't see how my points could be harmful to town- the hider is still free to play as they see fit. The fact remains, that unless they picked someone on night 0 who wasn't scum to hide behind, who is still alive and is going to be alive for a substantial proportion of the game, it seems as though by using their hide ability in the future they are more likely to die than if they don't.

That's a fair point about breadcrumbing but the fact remains even if the scum notice the breadcrumb they _cannot_ do anything about it. If the hider breadcrumbs and hides behind an innocent player, the scum can't kill them. If the hider breadcrumbs and hides behind a mafia player they will be dead. In fact this is more of a reason for the hider to claim- if they choose an innocent player they will definitely survive the night, if they choose a scummy one they will definitely not survive the night. EITHER of the rolecop or the watcher could confirm if they're telling the truth on that same night, and could stay silent and not claim unless the hider was lying.

To reiterate, if the hider claims and says who they will hide behind (and they can be verified by EITHER the watcher or the rolecop, who DON'T have to claim the following day unless they find that the hider is lying), then if they choose an innocent player, they will survive the night and the mafia can't attack them. If they choose a mafia player, they will die, and we will have exchanged a suicidal investigator for a mafia player (this is the _best_ outcome for this role, imo).

Please comment on this plan. I have some more ideas for contingencies but I don't want to put plans into the mafia's head.

The plan you have is pretty interesting in and of itself. I may be a bit on the purist side and prefer people not play to break the game, but I do like the strategy involved here. Confirmed town narrows down the pool to who the scum could be, and the result of a confirmed scum is obvious.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote: Panda Stomper 85

since we have some serious discussion now.

I'm not entirely convinced by your explanation of Panda Stomper 64's untimely demise, but I'm willing to downgrade you and vote the humorless villain orangepenguin.

Since you are FoSing Panda Stomper 85, I don't understand what this "untimely demise" of his that you speak of is.

okay to be honest i don't at all like ortolans idea of the PR's claiming right now. that just seems scummy to me. however, an idea that i like a little better, which was done in a game i just finished. is everyone fake claims as hider. and you say i hid behind (player) last night, so they are town. and then right before night everyone claims who they will hide behind if they were hider. so right now no one is cleared, and the mafia don't have a clue who the hider is, but whenever the hider dies, the town can go back and look at their reports and find who is actually cleared, and who the hider died behind.

Hmm. It's a very interesting plan indeed, and I like the reasoning behind it.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: The title still says it's Night 1.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: camn and I do not have a vote out; no mention is made of this in the vote count.

I really haven't been commenting. Apologies for the inconvenience.

I'll take The Central Scrutinizer's advice and tell you that I hid behind orangepenguin last night. I will do so again tonight.

[StrangerCoug]

strangerCoug can you please explain to me why a hider would hide behind the same person two nights in a row? i don't really understand this idea, just seems that all you are worried about is self preservation.

Because I don't have any better candidates in mind and this is only the first or second game I've played with a hider role. Apologies for not being familiar with the role.

I hid behind icemanE last night and will hide behind SC tonight.

You just accused me of being worried about self-preservation, yet you want to hide behind me. I don't get it.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, since ten of us are going to be lying anyway xD

[StrangerCoug]

I said speculating about the roles (I don't see why this is surprising at all, we're in an open setup so it seems quite an obvious path) could lead to good outcomes (as, I would argue, it has in this case). Alternatively, I have to acknowledge, it might *potentially* have led to someone slipping up and outing their role inadvertently. But that's like most tactics in this game- they can serve your purposes, or they can backfire. Of course, in this case, it didn't, so we've got a good outcome and seemingly no negatives (so what's the problem?...).

I kind of understand your point here. It's an open setup, so to outguess the mod we'd have to guess who has the role, but role speculation does have the danger of someone slipping up and giving away their role. For example, it's my fault for making it obvious that I'm not the hider. Is it scummy that I made such obvious? That can be debated. The problem I see with your acknowledgement of the danger is that I get a slight rolefishing vibe from it.

[StrangerCoug]

From acknowledging the danger.

[StrangerCoug]

I'll be damned if I know, but something's rotten in the state of

Denmark

my mind reading that.

[StrangerCoug]

There's a term for that in the wiki some place. Forgot what it's called. But it has something to do with spreading a lie enough that people start to believe that it is true.

Argumentum ad nauseam

?

[StrangerCoug]

I think that the fact that panda stomper waited to go last is as good a reason as any to vote him. Between him and orangepenguin I think we have about a 50% chance of lynching scum.

Umm, what? One, being the last person to claim is not scummy; two, this doesn't take into account him falling off the face of this site (have you checked if he's active in any other games before making that statement?); and three, where the hell are you getting the 50%?

Vote: The Central Scrutinizer

for craplogic.

[StrangerCoug]

FoS: afatchic

for mindlessly bandwagoning and

HoS: bionicchop2

for OMGUS and not giving reasons for his last two votes.

[StrangerCoug]

Reason for vote on icemanE - see reason for vote on TCS. icemanE comes in and uses outdated wiki material on tells that are no longer valid. Add to this I was the first person to vote TCS, changed my opinion and then voted iceman when he voted for TCS.

I'm not going to argue the outdated Wiki bit for the most part, but I agree that being the nth person on the bandwagon isn't reliable anymore. One thing, however, is keeping me from believing you:

1. I haven't seen any solid evidence that OMGUS is a current and legit scum tell.

Voting someone solely for voting you, which is the basic form of OMGUS, is indeed a scumtell, and you proposing otherwise does nothing to help your town image. In fact, it hurts it. HoS stands, but I'm debating whether this warrants a vote.

[StrangerCoug]

Provide one example of scum voting for a town person, not giving any reason for voting and it is clear that the vote was a direct result of the other person voting for them.

Post #159 before you even bothered with #165.

OMGUS can only be used if you can prove that no reason was given for the vote (otherwise the term doesn't exist). If you can prove a vote had no valid reason behind it, that is scummy on its own and the fact the other person voted for them is inconsequential. All the term does (and the scumminess associated with it) is make players hesitant to vote anybody who votes for them or is suspicious of them.

If you have a valid reason to vote back, then OMGUS does not happen. If I see someone make a crap case on me and vote me for it, I will attack the case and vote back.

Now, iceman and yourself have both applied the term to me. You made an assumption I only voted him because he FOS'd me. Now, if OMGUS is such a clear scum tell, explain how my vote on iceman (which made me look suspicious by being intentionally vague) would advance a scum agenda of not getting myself lynched and getting an innocent town player lynched.

I see a vote and expect to find a reasoning for it in that post, or failing that, for the vote post to tell me to go look at a specific post for it. You did not vote icemanE and tell us that you were voting him for the same reasons as your vote on The Central Scrutinizer in the same post—you waited until a later post. It gives the same vibes as "vote: bionicchop2. I'll tell you why later." Were your vote and your reason (or a reference to it) in the same place, I would not have HoS'd you.

[StrangerCoug]

Un-HoS: bionicchop2

since he's done a good job of defending himself.

[StrangerCoug]

Camn im confused, who do you think is scummiest?

Now understand this.. I think EVERYONE is scum.

Awfully paranoid thinking, but given that nobody's cleared...

I also know that Lurking is a null-tell.. but I am pretty firmly in the Nuke-All-Lurkers camp. I know it's wrong, but it feels so good.

If you know it's wrong, then why do you do it?

Minor FoS: camn

[StrangerCoug]

FoS: ortolan

for not giving reasons for his vote, and it comes off to me as if it was done out of appeasement.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote: The Central Scrutinizer

since it's not doing anything.

[StrangerCoug]

I voted you for craplogic, but I am not getting support for your lynch, I haven't really pushed for it, and you've cleaned up your act enough to warrant the unvote.

Haschel Cedricson asking two people specifically to give him a summary of the game before he started reading is of interest, but in and of itself it's weak.

[StrangerCoug]

Active Lurking = extremely scummy.
Orangepenguin = Active Lurker
Lynching Active Lurker =/= Policy Lynch
therefore:
Lynching OP =/= Policy lynch.

I'm not normally a fan of lynching lurkers since they'll be prodded and replaced if they don't post, but I agree with your logic here. If you think active lurking is scummy, then by all means go after people engaging in it.

I need to reread OP to see if I want to vote him. I think he's as much of a lynch magnet than I am, but he was scum in one game I've played with him where he had been lurking.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, here's my two sense after looking at this OP guy:

I think they're saving you for later, IMO. Getting the idea that you're scummy out there, so they can set up a lynch on you later, assuming you're town and they are scum. If they aren't scum, then I don't think they're doing that, but just my interpretation.

It's hard for me to picture town theorizing about scum motives like this. What I'm getting from this post is that orangepenguin knows ortolan is town and therefore is trying to distance from a mislynch.

So basically all I amount to is a policy lynch? That's going to benefit the town for sure.

Vote: TCS

This is OMGUS.

Vote: orangepenguin

[StrangerCoug]

Waiting for OP to explain himself *taps foot impatiently*

[StrangerCoug]

I have never won a game before- every other time I was in lylo, I'd lose. I just got lucky.

Then why, pray tell, are you good for the town, even if you AREN'T scum?
Are you really saying.. "look, I am not any good at this game.. that is why I have been holding back"?

I suck too, but I don't use the fact that I suck as a get out of jail free card. I still make every attempt to play to the best of my ability with what I know. If I win, yay. If I lose, serves me right. Every game is a lesson in and of itself.

[StrangerCoug]

I don't know whose head I want to bite off: afatchic's for false dilemma, or camn's for saying there's a reason to lynch townies. I agree that discussing the latter is distracting, however.

[StrangerCoug]

Somebody remind me to hurt orangepenguin. Come on, unvoting out of appeasement!?

[StrangerCoug]

Guys, I'm feeling kind of stuck here.
I'm not really sure I see OP as scum, I don't like TCS as scum, I obviously don't like MYSELF as scum.....

Yep. I think we're as good as at an impasse, but if it helps, I'll give opinions on you three.

I like OP-scum because of his active lurking problem. I don't like using meta to determine alignment, but he's done that before in a game where I was scum.

The Central Scrutinizer as scum is mostly for his actions early in the day. His later actions don't give me scum vibes.

The only thing you've done to set me off is say there's a time for lynching townies, but that can be taken to Mafia Discussion.

[StrangerCoug]

So if it come down to deadline, I will be voting TCS, but there are people with ZERO votes on them right now that I'd rather see lynched because I think they are scummier than the three of us.

I love it when people are vague. I really do. [/sarcasm]

You imply that at least one of afatchic, Haschel Cedricson, ortolan, Xtoxm, and I are scummier than camn and The Central Scrutinizer, but at no time, not even in random voting, did you vote any of the first five of us. The only time you said any of the five of us were suspicious, you didn't say why other than he "looked" suspicious. Get the hell off the sidelines and tell us why you think specific people are scum.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote: orangepenguin

[StrangerCoug]

So yeah...

unvote, vote: Haschel Cedricson

P1: One of orangepenguin or Haschel Cedricson is scum.
P2: Orange penguin is not scum.

Ergo, HC is scum.

This analogy is flawed as we have no way to prove either person's alignment at this time. orangepenguin's claiming a power role, truthful or faked, has no effect whatsoever on Haschel Cedricson's alignment.

Vote: The Central Scrutinizer

[StrangerCoug]

I

always

have a logical reason for doing everything. The fault lies in the interpretation of my actions.

HC

is

scum... and because I think it unlikely that there are multiple scum parked on my wagon right now, I imagine the scum are not ort and coug.

What is your logical reason for concluding that one of orangepenguin and Haschel Cedricson

HAS

to be scum, and why do you believe that multiple scum are probably not on your wagon?

[StrangerCoug]

SC-When you claimed to hide behind the same person N1 and 2 i thought it was because you was a different PR(watcher, Rolecop) so i didn't push the issue. But now all Power Roles are outed, and that wasn't the case. So why exactly did you do that?

I simply did not understand the hider role. I agree with bionicchop2's #488.

No real reads on anybody (both of my late Day 1 suspects are power roles and one of them is dead), but I hate #479.

[StrangerCoug]

Okay so we have 4 people clear.

The scum are in:

{Fat, SC, Crazy, Ort, Ice}

Personally, i'm leaning SC-Ice atm.

Why us?

[StrangerCoug]

Okay so we have 4 people clear.

The scum are in:

{Fat, SC, Crazy, Ort, Ice}

Personally, i'm leaning SC-Ice atm.

Why us?

Answer me, Xtoxm.

[StrangerCoug]

Try explaining what icemanE and I have done that is scummy, not using process of elimination based on for all I know are gut town reads on others.

[StrangerCoug]

Xtoxm, I love it when you ignore my request to explain why exactly you think icemanE and I are the most likely scum of those of us that haven't claimed a power role. You say you use process of elimination to scumhunt., and despite my not wanting to know why you think the other unknowns are town, even your explaining why you think those people are town is vague.

Vote: Xtoxm

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: Delete the second period.

[StrangerCoug]

Welcome to OMGUS land.

[StrangerCoug]

I don't think No Lynch is a good idea here. It rarely ever is.

Xtoxm ignoring afatchic's #543 is noted.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm going behind Xtoxm.

[StrangerCoug]

Heres my idea that im having right now, if its flawed someone please tell me. but everyone list there top three suspects out of the 5 uncleared. ill add them up by:
1)+3
2)+2
3)+1
and whoever gets the most points(suspected by the most people) will be who i will check.

I think it's obvious that Xtoxm's my #1 given that's whom I'm voting. I don't have a very good scum read on anyone else, though. Somebody needs to remind me of the case on Crazy.

[StrangerCoug]

bionicchop2, not to draw any heat in my direction, but since when was I cleared?

[StrangerCoug]

Oh.

[StrangerCoug]

Xtoxm, stop vote hopping.

[StrangerCoug]

I'll go Xtoxm +3, Crazy +2, and camn +1.

Just you watch it play scum into a victory they didn't have.

Yes, Bio does know my meta well. But he's scum in this game, and he's BSing. It means squat.

At the least, you definatley should not tell us who you plan to hide behind, and you should try to hide behind town. If you die in a double kill that's very bad for town, it doesn't matter if you die finding a scum, the damage is still done.

Like I say, we have 2 mislynches, we don't need your power. You are abusing it to the town's detriment.

OK, bionicchop2 is BS'ing. The problem is, you're not convincing that you aren't BS'ing yourself.

[StrangerCoug]

Happy birthday mod!

[StrangerCoug]

Again, I don't see how i'm scummy, but I never get why people lynch me but they always do anyway.

This is your case, just going on my posts:

Xtoxm, I love it when you ignore my request to explain why exactly you think icemanE and I are the most likely scum of those of us that haven't claimed a power role. You say you use process of elimination to scumhunt., and despite my not wanting to know why you think the other unknowns are town, even your explaining why you think those people are town is vague.

Vote: Xtoxm

Xtoxm ignoring afatchic's #543 is noted.

Xtoxm, stop vote hopping.

Please don't tell me you're this dense.

[StrangerCoug]

Now i tend to disagree, i think if i hide behind crazy and die because she is mafia, then i just caught half the scum left. so im gonna try it.

Crazy is male.

[StrangerCoug]

BAH!

[StrangerCoug]

Yay