Mini 698 - Georgetown Mafia - Game over

[Corvuus]

/confirm

[Corvuus]

Voting mightymousey since he didn't spell his name correctly!

....is spelling correct name for voting in bold that important?

vote miteymouse

Corv

[Corvuus]

I guess you meant it is spelled correctly for a silly name!

Happy B-day mod!

Corv

[Corvuus]

huh, so miteymouse is your name... then are you really a mouse or named after one?

Would it... happen to be Mightymouse the great hero of our galaxy who cruises around saves the day, or Evil Twin Mightymouse who obliterates his foes with lasers from his eyes!

Corv

[Corvuus]

If that is the case, wouldn't there be a space in the name? Mitey Mouse?

Anyways, we should try to get this day rolling at some point.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

huh.

I check in and interesting things are going on.

First of all, I don't think there is a post restriction. At least, no one enforced by the mod. Primate can just be doing it on his own for kicks.

That being said, if it become unhelpful/anti-town I would ask Primate to stop it and actually speak(post) instead of communicating by pics or smilies.

As for the bandwagoners, I would give them a finger of suspicion and let them answer why they are doing 'anti-town/scum' actions.

...

I have heard that people would rather you vote instead of just FoSing (so as to gain information based on it) but I don't want a possiblity of quicklynch so i will just say Cephrir would be the one whose vote needs to be explained and quickly.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

huh. where is that quote of "Mod wrote" from?


....

Oh, the initial story flavor.

...


So I guess you want us to interpret things you say and you will "clap", smiley or otherwise signal approve without words.

It seems like an interesting way to get us (or perhaps me in this instance) to say things instead of you. I get the blame in a way.

It seems like you want me to say that the criminal gangs flavor implies different mafia groups or some variation thereof?

I don't think it helps us to speculate on setup and such until after we get a few dead bodies to see what role/flavor there really is. Otherwise it is a mod WIFOM isn't it?

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

just to keep things rolling in a slightly silly way,

FoS: StrangerCoug for trying to agree with me and Atlas and yet speculating anyways!

Don't try to please everyone or else you will make Primate unhappy!

Corv

[Corvuus]

What the!

Miteymouse! How did you get 3 votes on you?!

Unvote

Stop weighing my die and making me randomly vote you! it makes me look bad!


----

I don't think Primate has a Post restriction by mod but just one by player choice. Since it is by choice, I would not refer to it as a PR since it is voluntary.


-----


Anyways, I don't think I have any major suspicion right now....

how about I ask a question about something I have always wondered about.

Let's say we have a group of 4 players (whether by lurking, only replying when spoken to directly, etc.) who are able to survive and make it all the way to lylo without saying a *single* scummy thing at all.

You know 1 is mafia, but you really have no idea which? What do you do? It could be as simple as 'no lynch' to improve random odds of victory or it could be using the beginning random vote, or it could be that you would never let the game get to this point by hanging the people who couldn't be read... I don't know.

I guess I just want to see how you guys respond.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I don't mean to sidetrack, but it just seems like your strategy (paraphrased) of

1. Vote 'random' player
2. Say "I found scum!"
3. "i will give reason later, all aboard the quicklynch train"
4. "I didn't mean it... just getting reactions"

Doesn't work that great.

It got you on everyone's scum list (as you pointed out) and it only semi-started the game. There should be a better way to get response/reactions out of people without having to be anti-town-ish.

That being said,

Vote: Primate

Town needs to gain info (via reaction, etc.) and his posting doesn't give info while pressuring him (or even lynching him if he is totally useless) might.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I didn't say Primate's voluntary PR is scummy, I said it was anti-town.

i.e. it doesn't give us info or help the town overall.

I can't get a read on a 'picture' in order to determine what he is thinking/saying, etc. and how can he contribute to a real discussion with only pictures/smilies?

I mean, for all of you I could do a PBPA at some point but for him, if I click on his name now it is a bunch of pictures or a dancing smiling thing. He doesn't even have a random vote! The only word he has spoken is /confirm at the beginning!

So I think that at the very LEAST he can type "Vote: Insert name" to show that he can at least contribute that. But if he doesn't vote, then that is so glaring anti-town that we pretty much would have to get rid of him just to move on.

So yeah, I don't think he is scum; but until he types a word/vote I am voting for him (or if someone scummier appears).

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

sorry, i don't consider /confirm,
vote: *blank*
in order to make it 2>1.

in the first two posts of the game with nothing else said as contributing.

If he can unvote and change his vote, etc. then good job.

i am voting him to pressure him to actually say something or unvote/vote. I didn't say he was scum but he is being stubborn, not helping and what is wrong with voting for someone who isn't scumhunting or contributing?

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

his picture post formats weird for me and places his vote in the far bottom right corner.

I didn't see it, and frankly, I am still going to vote for him until he posts a response/says something.

Corv

[Corvuus]

Posting to show that I am here, read all the responses and such but I am just as stubborn as "Little Miss stubborn" is.

My vote stays where it is until he posts another response (pictures or words) to it.

As for him having a PR, I say BS.

I would prefer if none of you answer, defend, or fight for him. Let Primate respond to me.

If we don't deal with this now, and what I see as a voluntary PR, then he is just going to coast through the game and we can't determine meta, scum-town-tells, etc. since it is a picture.

So if the rest of you do want something to think about/respond to, then think about this, what if we are in lylo and Primate is there with his "voluntary" picture PR. What will you do?

I will ignore all comments which say that it is a "PR" since I am not convinced.


Corvuus

[Corvuus]

you?

Corv

[Corvuus]

It kinda sucks that we're arguing over whether or not we should be allowed to post in pictures rather than words. When we're playing mafia!

just to get discussion moving

Vote: Corvuus

If this were real life mafia, it would be like Primate speaking a foreign language, sign language or writing on a piece of paper and hoping one of us can translate.

I have no reason to believe it is a PR. If he posts and says it is voluntary but he *wants* to post in pictures, I can accept that and move on since at the very least if things go badly for town he could drop it and say something.

But if he is keeping up a voluntary PR just for fun and it has a spam of pictures (4-5 pictures just to say he thinks someone is scum) without explanation or reason, then what the heck is that?

I don't even know what his case is or reasons for voting are. He just thinks that they are mafia and that is it?

If it was a different PR (involving laughing, words, stories, etc.) and not just "you can only post in pictures", then I may buy it and think it wasn't voluntary but a Picture PR??

No.

If it were words, at the very least he could attempt to convey nuances of our discussions and what we are doing. As it is, it is pretty much him just saying "yes or no", posting a picture of himself (primate pic) with = sign on something and then "mafia" with his suspicion.

Can any of you tell me that you seriously have a meta, scum-town tells or ANYTHING from primates picture posting? And I don't count knowing him from other games.

Because basically it seems like you are all telling me that it is ok to have a player who will basically be "null-tells" all the way through this entire game and that is horribly bad for town.

How would I build a case against Primate? Quoting his pictures? Trying to argue it is a scum-tell based on pictures?

I am not saying we have to lynch him but we should be considering how strange this is. It is as if he 'claimed townie' and then we are all just going to ignore him for the rest of the game because of a voluntary PR.


--------

If you think it isn't voluntary, tell me why you think that. Even based on Primate's answers I am convinced it is voluntary.

If it was enforced, then he could have posted pictures showing that he had no control over it, it wasn't something he could do anything about since it was decided by mod.

Instead he posts that it is useless to discuss since he is stubborn and not going to change.

That kind of response is made by a person who is doing a VOLUNTARY PR and wants to keep doing his picture act.

If he wants to keep doing his picture act, that is fine, but I won't drop it until he admits it is voluntary (and then he can go back to pictures).

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I'm sorry, Corvuus, but I'm not convinced by your case on Primate here.

Cephrir, nice job agreeing with Corvuus and joining the Primate wagon without adding any real content yourself.

FoS: Cephrir

---

I don't think Primate is scum. My point was just to see what kind of PR it was, how far he could go, etc.

Unvote

------

SC, why don't you tell us what you think of who is your top two picks for being the most scummy.

I will gladly tell you mine.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Cep:

I am not jumping ship. Primate's answer is acceptable to me. I said I would unvote when I got what I wanted, so I did.

----

I will post my ideas later on when I have more time.

Sorry,

Corv

[Corvuus]

This game feels confusing to me and it makes me wonder how new all of us are?

This is the first game I actually started in, but I have replaced into 2 others and started in another. I haven't finished any of my games yet but I think I am mediocre at the very least.

So this isn't meant to disparage any of you but it just feels like the direction and flow is strange.

---------

I went after Primate for 2 reasons.

1. For the reasons I stated before about it being a voluntary PR, what it means, what he is able to do, how willing he is to help us. I had a goal which is to get him to post and show me (which he did) and so I am done with it. I don't think he is scummy and I would not vote to lynch him even if many of you tried.

2. By going after Primate, We all get to see how everyone reacts. This gives us information based on play style, comments, etc. etc. Information gained by town = good and this takes us out of 'random' voting and into more 'informed' voting.

Now if Primate is insanely unhelpful AND there is no one scummy at all, then I could consider lynching him instead of a no-lynch.

----

However, I get the scummiest vibes from StrangerCougar.

---------------------

I'm sorry, Corvuus, but I'm not convinced by your case on Primate here.

Cephrir, nice job agreeing with Corvuus and joining the Primate wagon without adding any real content yourself.

FoS: Cephrir

SC, You haven't added any real content yourself but just point out what others are doing that 'is wrong'. You also don't take a definite stand on things but just vote/unvote.


----------

I honestly wish we were [out of the RVS].

What made you think that we weren't?

The fact that very few people seemed to care to scumhunt yet. I'm looking at Primate right now.

Unvote: Cephrir

You say you care about scumhunting here, but I don't see you trying to scumhunt or do anything contributing at all. You also say you are looking at Primate but you never say why and you start defending him next as well.


-------------

I don't think it helps us to speculate on setup and such until after we get a few dead bodies to see what role/flavor there really is. Otherwise it is a mod WIFOM isn't it?

I agree with you here. We have to wait until Night 1 to get a idea of how many groups we're dealing with.

Assuming we have no doctors or roleblockers:
One person dies Night 1 = just the one Mafia
Two people die Night 1 = Mafia/Mafia, Mafia/SK, or Mafia/Vig
Three people die Night 1 = Most likely Mafia/SK/Vig, though Mafia/Mafia/Vig isn't too far-fetched an idea. Mafia/Mafia/SK is unlikely in a mini normal.

Simply speaking, we don't know what groups we're dealing with simply because we're all alive. We shouldn't be outguessing the mod, and anybody already trying to do so on page four should be viewed as suspicious for knowing more about the setup than the town should.

I agree with what Atlas is saying as well.

I had just said let's not speculate about game setup since it is not helpful and then you... speculated on game setup. You also keep agreeing with people and try to 'coast' or skim by. This is not very good playing either.


--------------

I didn't say Primate's voluntary PR is scummy, I said it was anti-town.

i.e. it doesn't give us info or help the town overall.

I can't get a read on a 'picture' in order to determine what he is thinking/saying, etc. and how can he contribute to a real discussion with only pictures/smilies?

I mean, for all of you I could do a PBPA at some point but for him, if I click on his name now it is a bunch of pictures or a dancing smiling thing. He doesn't even have a random vote! The only word he has spoken is /confirm at the beginning!

So I think that at the very LEAST he can type "Vote: Insert name" to show that he can at least contribute that. But if he doesn't vote, then that is so glaring anti-town that we pretty much would have to get rid of him just to move on.

So yeah, I don't think he is scum; but until he types a word/vote I am voting for him (or if someone scummier appears).

Corvuus

I don't get this post. One, Primate is voting, and the mod has counted his vote on me when he typed it in words. Two, if you think Primate is merely anti-town instead of scummy, then why are you voting him? Three, why are you viewing Primate as a liability to the town that needs to be disposed of?

Vote: Corvuus

Your questions here are ... frankly... stupid and out of place. You later state that voting to create pressure is legitimate but ask me why I am voting for him if I think he is anti-town. Obviously because I want him to stop being anti-town and post something helpful (which he did). I viewed it as a liability since... it is a liability!

PR's can ignore votes (or get around them somehow) so I didn't care about that so much. I just needed to provoke a reaction, which I did.

----------------------


I could show more of SC's posts but my biggest hunch right now is that SC is mafia and that Primate may be his scumbuddy.

This fits as both point out the other (since if one of them gets lynched, the other gets semi-cleared) and also why SC flip flops and goes from suspecting Primate to completely unsuspecting him and then defending his "PR" and other actions.

I don't see why a townie would try to defend Primate (at least, let him answer!) and I also don't see why Primate would certainly point you out SC unless you were both scum and he knows and is trying to leverage it into a good future play.

I thought of your playing style and how you "like to point things out which are easy and wrong" in order to make it seem like you are contributing and that is also a bad style. It also doesn't explain your defense of Primate and refusal to believe my points. If you don't believe them, then why don't you attack them like you try to attack everyone else?

But you don't. You say you don't believe my points, etc. but then you don't think I am scummy and just keep voting after other people. Why would you keep voting for people and then unvoting them? If you have a position or feeling about something then stick with it! Instead, you come off as afraid of gaining attention, being seen as bandwagoning, etc. and just willing to coast and point out others doing things for them to get lynched instead of you.

This is either incredibly anti-town or scummy.

I could go on but I think you should respond.

Corvuus
P.S.

Vote SC

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post:

I think SC you should have also gone after Primate for marking you as Scum (100% red) instead of just attacking someone else asking why Primate was marking as you scum.

Instead you ignore it, which a normal townie wouldn't do since it is basically FoS or voting you, and you also state that you understand all of his pictures and such so you had to understand the ven diagram so I don't see why you aren't against Primate at all but instead going after others.

Corv

[Corvuus]

I'm sorry, Corvuus, but I'm not convinced by your case on Primate here.

Cephrir, nice job agreeing with Corvuus and joining the Primate wagon without adding any real content yourself.

FoS: Cephrir

SC, You haven't added any real content yourself but just point out what others are doing that 'is wrong'. You also don't take a definite stand on things but just vote/unvote.

And it is wrong to call Cephrir out for just going with the flow? Quality ≠ quantity.

If Cephrir is scummy to you then build a case on him and go for it. It isn't a issue of quality or quantity. It is an issue of you claiming you want to scumhunt, do stuff, etc. and then not actually doing it.

-------------------------------

I honestly wish we were [out of the RVS].

What made you think that we weren't?

The fact that very few people seemed to care to scumhunt yet. I'm looking at Primate right now.

Unvote: Cephrir

You say you care about scumhunting here, but I don't see you trying to scumhunt or do anything contributing at all. You also say you are looking at Primate but you never say why and you start defending him next as well.

I'm simply against pushing a utility lynch. Town may be "useless", but lynching a useless townie is still a mislynch. I can see how scum might use them to their advantage. I'm also against lazy town, and Huntress has not voiced any objections to his pointing pictures except one where he was insulting you.

This is not a real answer and doesn't explain anything. You can say *now* that you are against a utility lynch but that isn't what you said back then. You said that you believe Primate's PR claim (and apparently you still do) and that my intention and points, etc. were ignoring it and attempting to lynch him based on misinformation. You were misrepresenting my position which is scum taking advantage. If I think Primate's claim is BS, then I am free to think so, vote on it, and pressure on it. You have no real reason to change your answer, nor ignore Primate and the fact is lynching useless townies is not always a bad move so I don't believe your "lynching useless townie is a mislynch". It is a fallacy.

-----

I don't think it helps us to speculate on setup and such until after we get a few dead bodies to see what role/flavor there really is. Otherwise it is a mod WIFOM isn't it?

I agree with you here. We have to wait until Night 1 to get a idea of how many groups we're dealing with.

Assuming we have no doctors or roleblockers:
One person dies Night 1 = just the one Mafia
Two people die Night 1 = Mafia/Mafia, Mafia/SK, or Mafia/Vig
Three people die Night 1 = Most likely Mafia/SK/Vig, though Mafia/Mafia/Vig isn't too far-fetched an idea. Mafia/Mafia/SK is unlikely in a mini normal.

Simply speaking, we don't know what groups we're dealing with simply because we're all alive. We shouldn't be outguessing the mod, and anybody already trying to do so on page four should be viewed as suspicious for knowing more about the setup than the town should.

I agree with what Atlas is saying as well.

I had just said let's not speculate about game setup since it is not helpful and then you... speculated on game setup. You also keep agreeing with people and try to 'coast' or skim by. This is not very good playing either.

Even if I agree with people, I still have my suspects. My vote's out.

This isn't an answer either. It should be obvious why.

---------------------

I didn't say Primate's voluntary PR is scummy, I said it was anti-town.

i.e. it doesn't give us info or help the town overall.

I can't get a read on a 'picture' in order to determine what he is thinking/saying, etc. and how can he contribute to a real discussion with only pictures/smilies?

I mean, for all of you I could do a PBPA at some point but for him, if I click on his name now it is a bunch of pictures or a dancing smiling thing. He doesn't even have a random vote! The only word he has spoken is /confirm at the beginning!

So I think that at the very LEAST he can type "Vote: Insert name" to show that he can at least contribute that. But if he doesn't vote, then that is so glaring anti-town that we pretty much would have to get rid of him just to move on.

So yeah, I don't think he is scum; but until he types a word/vote I am voting for him (or if someone scummier appears).

Corvuus

I don't get this post. One, Primate is voting, and the mod has counted his vote on me when he typed it in words. Two, if you think Primate is merely anti-town instead of scummy, then why are you voting him? Three, why are you viewing Primate as a liability to the town that needs to be disposed of?

Vote: Corvuus

Your questions here are ... frankly... stupid and out of place. You later state that voting to create pressure is legitimate but ask me why I am voting for him if I think he is anti-town. Obviously because I want him to stop being anti-town and post something helpful (which he did).

OK, I understand that much.

Can you elaborate on this? State what you understand, what you think, why, etc.

------------

This fits as both point out the other (since if one of them gets lynched, the other gets semi-cleared) and also why SC flip flops and goes from suspecting Primate to completely unsuspecting him and then defending his "PR" and other actions.

Quote where I suspect Primate. (My saying "I'm looking at him", "I don't know what to make of him", "his post interest me for some reason", or anything along the lines of those three don't count, by the way. The first one simply means I'm looking at someone's case to see if it makes sense; I don't use the other two as an indication that I have a firm belief that a player is scum.)

Sadly, it does count.

In a PBPA of you, post #14, you state: "i'm trying to get the town back on track" i.e. scum hunting.

Primate posts his pictures and votes for you. You respond with post #15 on PBPA where you ask if Primate thinks you are a convenience store robber (and he is voting for you). So he is 'scum hunting' in a sense with his PR.

In post #17, You state that you are looking at Primate since people aren't scum hunting.

When he HAS voted for you and drawn a picture of you as a 'convenience store robber".

Why didn't you respond to this or care? He basically says you are scum, and then you shrug it off. You go on to state that you understand his pictures, his pictures are fine, leave him alone, (even though he did vote for you and he does have you marked as 100% scum) so why aren't my points valid?

Note: you can't say because he has no evidence, etc. since then that proves my point about his posts 'not contributing' in terms of his thinking/analysis, etc. which you state that you don't believe and you understand his posts fine.

Why the inconsistency? If you get his posts, he sees you as scum, then why not bash his PR or his logic or his reasoning? Instead, you just 'ignore' him and move on to other players.

So my point is Valid since you "do mention" Primate (so we can't accuse you later of completely ignoring him) but you pretty much do give him a jail out of free card in terms of his actions, etc.

--------------

I don't see why a townie would try to defend Primate (at least, let him answer!) and I also don't see why Primate would certainly point you out SC unless you were both scum and he knows and is trying to leverage it into a good future play.

Primate hasn't said anything along the lines of why exactly I'm scummy, but I'm sure he has them.

What does this statement mean? You are sure he has them? Then why not ask him to elaborate? Why not ask him to prove his point with his PR or with words, etc. Instead you just let him call you scum, let him vote for you and then say, "I don't know, he has reasons... but yeah, I understand all of his picture posts and Corvuus' going after his PR (which is not voluntary) doesn't make sense".

What you did doesn't make sense. You could say, "I didn't think about it, or I didn't think of that" but seriously, you have pointed out 'everything' else that is 'wrong' with everyone else, I don't see why you would ignore Primate who IS voting you and does have picture of you being scum. I wouldn't have accused you of OMGUS if you asked for a better explanation , etc. or thought it was weird that Primate is pointing you out. Instead, you pretty much ignore it and go after ... Zeppo i think as "#1 or #2" on your list for asking Primate questions when really you should be asking Primate questions instead.

How does that make sense? You go after Zeppo for asking why Primate thinks you are scum but you don't go after Primate for thinking you are scum?

-------------------------

I thought of your playing style and how you "like to point things out which are easy and wrong" in order to make it seem like you are contributing and that is also a bad style. It also doesn't explain your defense of Primate and refusal to believe my points. If you don't believe them, then why don't you attack them like you try to attack everyone else?

I have attacked them.

What should I say about this. You attacked me originally for going after a person with a PR (Primate, who you consider to have a PR and it not be voluntary despite no evidence to the contrary). Then you attack me for trying to put pressure on him to get him to stop/explain or contribute when he *has*. But his contribution, which you are aware, is to vote for you and say you are scum. I didn't see his vote (due to the picture format) and since you ignored him, I didn't think Primate did anything, but when I look back and see what happened, it is strange that Primate went after you as scum (and still is going after you) and yet you argue to protect him, his "PR", etc. Why not just let Primate handle it?

---------

But you don't. You say you don't believe my points, etc. but then you don't think I am scummy and just keep voting after other people.

I've cleared you because I feel you have explained yourself adequately. I don't have to approve of a Primate lynch to think you are town.

I don't get the above statement. You need to elaborate and state 100% whether you think Primate's PR is voluntary or real.

Why would you keep voting for people and then unvoting them? If you have a position or feeling about something then stick with it! Instead, you come off as afraid of gaining attention, being seen as bandwagoning, etc. and just willing to coast and point out others doing things for them to get lynched instead of you.

So I'm somehow supposed to "lock" my vote and ignore other people's defenses. Right.

I've had my vote on you for awhile; in fact, I think I've had it on you the longest for the Primate case. I remember voting four people other than my random vote: Evilgorillaz, Cephrir, you, and Zeppo007, and I believe in that order. Three Mafia is standard in a mini, so I know all four of you can't be, but I fail to see where I'm being wishy-washy with my vote.

That isn't my point. I would just ask you this. Primate thinks you are scum. What is your defense and what do you say to Primate?

I think SC you should have also gone after Primate for marking you as Scum (100% red) instead of just attacking someone else asking why Primate was marking as you scum.

Player X voting player Y for scummy action Z, whatever that might be ≠ player X being scum necessarily. For player Y to propose otherwise is OMGUS. Granted, I should have probed Primate for reasoning, but I cannot attack Primate solely because he voted me.

This is an error in logic. Primate isn't voting you for a specific scummy action Z. in fact, he never stated why he is voting for you or why he thinks you are scum which is the entire problem with Picture PR. I get that he thinks you are scum SC but why, how, etc. I don't know.

Now, if Player P(rimate) votes for Player SC for "no reason" as being 100% scum, then Player SC is PERFECTLY fine in saying that it is scummy for Player P to do so. It is like Cephrir voting without giving his reasons which you are QUICK to jump on... but when Primate did the same to you, you ignored him.

No one would have said that it was OMGUS for you to ask for a explanation so that you could actually respond and refute Primate's response.

So YES, you should (and from your actions against other players) would have gone after Primate for solely voting you for no "clearly" stated reason. if you can state Primate's reasons for voting for you here, then state them and refute them.

---------------

Instead you ignore it, which a normal townie wouldn't do since it is basically FoS or voting you, and you also state that you understand all of his pictures and such so you had to understand the ven diagram so I don't see why you aren't against Primate at all but instead going after others.

There is no need for me to panic over one or two votes. You have put me at L-4, which is not really a dangerous position in a mini, but being at L-4 does mean that you had best be explaining what you did, and I am doing so right now.

I agree that there is no need to panic over one or two votes. When I was going after Primate to clarify his PR, I would have kept going after him even if you all voted me to L-2.

However, your actions which are still ignoring Primate are highly questionable.

Primate has a ven diagram where he has you shown as 100% scum. Shouldn't you be angry? Shouldn't you fight back? Explain why you don't attack Primate's logic, his diagrams, etc. and why you don't think he is scum for what he is doing when you clearly think others are scum when they are doing virtually the equivalent.

It is that kind of selective bias that makes me think you are scum and that Primate may be scum who is half-trying to BUS you in order to 'prove' himself.

I see no reason for Primate to be "100%" sure and put you in the major scum category yet he does. Anyone with too much information or knowledge (especially in day 1) is generally scum. Why don't you call him on it? Ask him for reasons, explanations?

His first Picture vote could have been 'random' or just for fun, but his store robber vote is you, his ven diagram vote is you, etc. That seems pretty sure to me, and he has no reason for doing it unless he is scum. You also have no reason for why you would ignore him saying you are scum, voting for you, and you otherwise defending him and saying he can do his PR, etc. etc. unless you are trying to help him.

So go ahead and try to say I am reading too much into things. I am pretty sure i can knock out most of what you say.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I'm sorry, Corvuus, but I'm not convinced by your case on Primate here.

Cephrir, nice job agreeing with Corvuus and joining the Primate wagon without adding any real content yourself.

FoS: Cephrir

SC, You haven't added any real content yourself but just point out what others are doing that 'is wrong'. You also don't take a definite stand on things but just vote/unvote.

And it is wrong to call Cephrir out for just going with the flow? Quality ≠ quantity.

If Cephrir is scummy to you then build a case on him and go for it. It isn't a issue of quality or quantity. It is an issue of you claiming you want to scumhunt, do stuff, etc. and then not actually doing it.

-------------------------------

I honestly wish we were [out of the RVS].

What made you think that we weren't?

The fact that very few people seemed to care to scumhunt yet. I'm looking at Primate right now.

Unvote: Cephrir

You say you care about scumhunting here, but I don't see you trying to scumhunt or do anything contributing at all. You also say you are looking at Primate but you never say why and you start defending him next as well.

I'm simply against pushing a utility lynch. Town may be "useless", but lynching a useless townie is still a mislynch. I can see how scum might use them to their advantage. I'm also against lazy town, and Huntress has not voiced any objections to his pointing pictures except one where he was insulting you.

This is not a real answer and doesn't explain anything. You can say *now* that you are against a utility lynch but that isn't what you said back then. You said that you believe Primate's PR claim (and apparently you still do) and that my intention and points, etc. were ignoring it and attempting to lynch him based on misinformation. You were misrepresenting my position which is scum taking advantage. If I think Primate's claim is BS, then I am free to think so, vote on it, and pressure on it. You have no real reason to change your answer, nor ignore Primate and the fact is lynching useless townies is not always a bad move so I don't believe your "lynching useless townie is a mislynch". It is a fallacy.

-----

I don't think it helps us to speculate on setup and such until after we get a few dead bodies to see what role/flavor there really is. Otherwise it is a mod WIFOM isn't it?

I agree with you here. We have to wait until Night 1 to get a idea of how many groups we're dealing with.

Assuming we have no doctors or roleblockers:
One person dies Night 1 = just the one Mafia
Two people die Night 1 = Mafia/Mafia, Mafia/SK, or Mafia/Vig
Three people die Night 1 = Most likely Mafia/SK/Vig, though Mafia/Mafia/Vig isn't too far-fetched an idea. Mafia/Mafia/SK is unlikely in a mini normal.

Simply speaking, we don't know what groups we're dealing with simply because we're all alive. We shouldn't be outguessing the mod, and anybody already trying to do so on page four should be viewed as suspicious for knowing more about the setup than the town should.

I agree with what Atlas is saying as well.

I had just said let's not speculate about game setup since it is not helpful and then you... speculated on game setup. You also keep agreeing with people and try to 'coast' or skim by. This is not very good playing either.

Even if I agree with people, I still have my suspects. My vote's out.

This isn't an answer either. It should be obvious why.

---------------------

I didn't say Primate's voluntary PR is scummy, I said it was anti-town.

i.e. it doesn't give us info or help the town overall.

I can't get a read on a 'picture' in order to determine what he is thinking/saying, etc. and how can he contribute to a real discussion with only pictures/smilies?

I mean, for all of you I could do a PBPA at some point but for him, if I click on his name now it is a bunch of pictures or a dancing smiling thing. He doesn't even have a random vote! The only word he has spoken is /confirm at the beginning!

So I think that at the very LEAST he can type "Vote: Insert name" to show that he can at least contribute that. But if he doesn't vote, then that is so glaring anti-town that we pretty much would have to get rid of him just to move on.

So yeah, I don't think he is scum; but until he types a word/vote I am voting for him (or if someone scummier appears).

Corvuus

I don't get this post. One, Primate is voting, and the mod has counted his vote on me when he typed it in words. Two, if you think Primate is merely anti-town instead of scummy, then why are you voting him? Three, why are you viewing Primate as a liability to the town that needs to be disposed of?

Vote: Corvuus

Your questions here are ... frankly... stupid and out of place. You later state that voting to create pressure is legitimate but ask me why I am voting for him if I think he is anti-town. Obviously because I want him to stop being anti-town and post something helpful (which he did).

OK, I understand that much.

Can you elaborate on this? State what you understand, what you think, why, etc.

------------

This fits as both point out the other (since if one of them gets lynched, the other gets semi-cleared) and also why SC flip flops and goes from suspecting Primate to completely unsuspecting him and then defending his "PR" and other actions.

Quote where I suspect Primate. (My saying "I'm looking at him", "I don't know what to make of him", "his post interest me for some reason", or anything along the lines of those three don't count, by the way. The first one simply means I'm looking at someone's case to see if it makes sense; I don't use the other two as an indication that I have a firm belief that a player is scum.)

Sadly, it does count.

In a PBPA of you, post #14, you state: "i'm trying to get the town back on track" i.e. scum hunting.

Primate posts his pictures and votes for you. You respond with post #15 on PBPA where you ask if Primate thinks you are a convenience store robber (and he is voting for you). So he is 'scum hunting' in a sense with his PR.

In post #17, You state that you are looking at Primate since people aren't scum hunting.

When he HAS voted for you and drawn a picture of you as a 'convenience store robber".

Why didn't you respond to this or care? He basically says you are scum, and then you shrug it off. You go on to state that you understand his pictures, his pictures are fine, leave him alone, (even though he did vote for you and he does have you marked as 100% scum) so why aren't my points valid?

Note: you can't say because he has no evidence, etc. since then that proves my point about his posts 'not contributing' in terms of his thinking/analysis, etc. which you state that you don't believe and you understand his posts fine.

Why the inconsistency? If you get his posts, he sees you as scum, then why not bash his PR or his logic or his reasoning? Instead, you just 'ignore' him and move on to other players.

So my point is Valid since you "do mention" Primate (so we can't accuse you later of completely ignoring him) but you pretty much do give him a jail out of free card in terms of his actions, etc.

--------------

I don't see why a townie would try to defend Primate (at least, let him answer!) and I also don't see why Primate would certainly point you out SC unless you were both scum and he knows and is trying to leverage it into a good future play.

Primate hasn't said anything along the lines of why exactly I'm scummy, but I'm sure he has them.

What does this statement mean? You are sure he has them? Then why not ask him to elaborate? Why not ask him to prove his point with his PR or with words, etc. Instead you just let him call you scum, let him vote for you and then say, "I don't know, he has reasons... but yeah, I understand all of his picture posts and Corvuus' going after his PR (which is not voluntary) doesn't make sense".

What you did doesn't make sense. You could say, "I didn't think about it, or I didn't think of that" but seriously, you have pointed out 'everything' else that is 'wrong' with everyone else, I don't see why you would ignore Primate who IS voting you and does have picture of you being scum. I wouldn't have accused you of OMGUS if you asked for a better explanation , etc. or thought it was weird that Primate is pointing you out. Instead, you pretty much ignore it and go after ... Zeppo i think as "#1 or #2" on your list for asking Primate questions when really you should be asking Primate questions instead.

How does that make sense? You go after Zeppo for asking why Primate thinks you are scum but you don't go after Primate for thinking you are scum?

-------------------------

I thought of your playing style and how you "like to point things out which are easy and wrong" in order to make it seem like you are contributing and that is also a bad style. It also doesn't explain your defense of Primate and refusal to believe my points. If you don't believe them, then why don't you attack them like you try to attack everyone else?

I have attacked them.

What should I say about this. You attacked me originally for going after a person with a PR (Primate, who you consider to have a PR and it not be voluntary despite no evidence to the contrary). Then you attack me for trying to put pressure on him to get him to stop/explain or contribute when he *has*. But his contribution, which you are aware, is to vote for you and say you are scum. I didn't see his vote (due to the picture format) and since you ignored him, I didn't think Primate did anything, but when I look back and see what happened, it is strange that Primate went after you as scum (and still is going after you) and yet you argue to protect him, his "PR", etc. Why not just let Primate handle it?

---------

But you don't. You say you don't believe my points, etc. but then you don't think I am scummy and just keep voting after other people.

I've cleared you because I feel you have explained yourself adequately. I don't have to approve of a Primate lynch to think you are town.

I don't get the above statement. You need to elaborate and state 100% whether you think Primate's PR is voluntary or real.

Why would you keep voting for people and then unvoting them? If you have a position or feeling about something then stick with it! Instead, you come off as afraid of gaining attention, being seen as bandwagoning, etc. and just willing to coast and point out others doing things for them to get lynched instead of you.

So I'm somehow supposed to "lock" my vote and ignore other people's defenses. Right.

I've had my vote on you for awhile; in fact, I think I've had it on you the longest for the Primate case. I remember voting four people other than my random vote: Evilgorillaz, Cephrir, you, and Zeppo007, and I believe in that order. Three Mafia is standard in a mini, so I know all four of you can't be, but I fail to see where I'm being wishy-washy with my vote.

That isn't my point. I would just ask you this. Primate thinks you are scum. What is your defense and what do you say to Primate?

I think SC you should have also gone after Primate for marking you as Scum (100% red) instead of just attacking someone else asking why Primate was marking as you scum.

Player X voting player Y for scummy action Z, whatever that might be ≠ player X being scum necessarily. For player Y to propose otherwise is OMGUS. Granted, I should have probed Primate for reasoning, but I cannot attack Primate solely because he voted me.

This is an error in logic. Primate isn't voting you for a specific scummy action Z. in fact, he never stated why he is voting for you or why he thinks you are scum which is the entire problem with Picture PR. I get that he thinks you are scum SC but why, how, etc. I don't know.

Now, if Player P(rimate) votes for Player SC for "no reason" as being 100% scum, then Player SC is PERFECTLY fine in saying that it is scummy for Player P to do so. It is like Cephrir voting without giving his reasons which you are QUICK to jump on... but when Primate did the same to you, you ignored him.

No one would have said that it was OMGUS for you to ask for a explanation so that you could actually respond and refute Primate's response.

So YES, you should (and from your actions against other players) would have gone after Primate for solely voting you for no "clearly" stated reason. if you can state Primate's reasons for voting for you here, then state them and refute them.

---------------

Instead you ignore it, which a normal townie wouldn't do since it is basically FoS or voting you, and you also state that you understand all of his pictures and such so you had to understand the ven diagram so I don't see why you aren't against Primate at all but instead going after others.

There is no need for me to panic over one or two votes. You have put me at L-4, which is not really a dangerous position in a mini, but being at L-4 does mean that you had best be explaining what you did, and I am doing so right now.

I agree that there is no need to panic over one or two votes. When I was going after Primate to clarify his PR, I would have kept going after him even if you all voted me to L-2.

However, your actions which are still ignoring Primate are highly questionable.

Primate has a ven diagram where he has you shown as 100% scum. Shouldn't you be angry? Shouldn't you fight back? Explain why you don't attack Primate's logic, his diagrams, etc. and why you don't think he is scum for what he is doing when you clearly think others are scum when they are doing virtually the equivalent.

It is that kind of selective bias that makes me think you are scum and that Primate may be scum who is half-trying to BUS you in order to 'prove' himself.

I see no reason for Primate to be "100%" sure and put you in the major scum category yet he does. Anyone with too much information or knowledge (especially in day 1) is generally scum. Why don't you call him on it? Ask him for reasons, explanations?

His first Picture vote could have been 'random' or just for fun, but his store robber vote is you, his ven diagram vote is you, etc. That seems pretty sure to me, and he has no reason for doing it unless he is scum. You also have no reason for why you would ignore him saying you are scum, voting for you, and you otherwise defending him and saying he can do his PR, etc. etc. unless you are trying to help him.

So go ahead and try to say I am reading too much into things. I am pretty sure i can knock out most of what you say.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

....

Ok. Let me try again since it seems like people don't see what I was doing with primate and don't see what I am doing with SC.

Since this is most likely a 3 mafia game, this is good to see where everyone stands on this anyways.

1st of all, regardless of what any of you say or try to go back and change, Primate has gone after SC and voted for him as scum.

That is a fact. There is no evidence, logic or reason given then due to the picture PR.

I then made my comments on this and then went after Primate for it. We have no scum-tells, town-tells or anything from him. How can we argue, defend, or do anything against what he does was my entire basis for this. This is also a fact which I think most of you would agree with.

Primate needs to respond more and show his case, etc. etc. and we should all look forward to it.

-----------------------

Now MacavityLock points out I am making an assumptions that Townies would attack other townies, etc.

That is a logical fallacy. I am stating that townies would DEFEND themselves. Primate said SC is scum twice, and has voted for him with no stated reasons.

SC ignored this and didn't defend himself, point it out, etc.

This is inconsistent with his meta play. He has gone after others for voting without stating reason or claiming things without reason.

So you are asking me to ignore this glaring inconsistency where Primate has voted for SC (not random vote, Evilgorrilaz was Primate's random vote) and has made two pictures of SC being scum.

SC also never asked why, or cared about Primate's PR, etc. etc. until I started going after him on it.

I find this incredible that SC would not go after Primate at all until I go after him for it.

So don't misrepresent my position on attack. It is SC not defending against Primate AND SC actually DEFENDING Primate which is weird. Especially now that SC, because i am after him for it, has to ask Primate to state his case.

I could post much more but I think we should let Primate (and others) weigh in.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I don't understand your point in your post Ceph.

I am not saying SC *has* to attack Primate. He doesn't.

"Defending himself is precisely what SC just attempted to do.".

Well, why is he doing it only *now* after it has become a big deal and not before. He can't just say "it didn't occur to him" or things like that, since that isn't the type of player he is.

In terms of meta, he isn't the type to ignore things that he can go after 'easily'. Zeppo was asking Primate for reasons (how could he know SC was scum, evidence, etc.) and yet SC went after it as role-fishing. I don't see it as rolefishing but just misrepresentation of SC on Zeppo.

He has gone after me or others (in various ways) for it, and it is his meta play.

Now, SC *could* have ignored Primate's posts as silly or nothing... but then he argues against me that he understands Primate's posts, his PR, etc. etc. If he accepted that Primate's posts were 'useless' and pointless then how could he defend Primate against me, when I ask that Primate do more since we can't get evidence or anything out of him?

The meta explanation of this doesn't make sense. The most reasonable meta explanation is that Primate and SC are both scum. This explains all their actions, posts, defense, etc.

Primate is using a voluntary PR. I am 99% sure.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

OK, now on to Primate, since it's been established that I've been ignoring him for too long:

• Why do you think I am scum?
  
• Who else do you think is scum and why?
  
• What do you think of Corvuus's case on me?
  
• What's your opinion of Zeppo007?

Unless directly asked a question, I will be waiting for Primate to answer SC's above questions.

Also, sorry about the double post last page. The site was having some error and so I waited to post it again and apparently it went through somehow or something so I ended up double posting.

Corv

[Corvuus]

Just coming from a game that I had a posting restriction in ... it is not easy and he has been doing pretty well with getting his point across with it.

Link to game, please? And I strongly disagree with the second line. As far as I can tell, Primate has gotten his point across on one specific point a grand total of

one

time. Other than that he either responds to posts, regardless of size, with some smiley or lumps players into groups with no reasoning. You say it's not easy, but I don't think it is very difficult at least select several quotes from a player and highlight what you find scummy about it.
---

If it is an ongoing game, then I think it would be best to not link it or mention it if possible.

Even if the situation is finished, etc. etc. linking to on-going games is skirting the rules to some mods and some people.

So just be aware of that.

If the game is done, then linking is ok. Or you could just tell us what the PR (or other examples) were and such.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I don't mind discussion of PR, etc.

I just think you guys shouldn't 'risk' actions which can result in a modkill.

So if you want to discuss PR, voluntary PR, etc. go ahead. I just think it would be best to avoid mentioning on-going games so people can't misinterpret you (miteymouse) as breaking rules.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just being dead in the game alone isn't the same as it 'ending' and not being on-going since it could still influence what happens in that game.

Example: Let's say people aren't convinced you had a real PR (you were modkilled tho so that should prove that it was a real PR) and they have a case on it. You say here in this thread that it was real, etc. etc. and by some random chance, people in that game read it. They gain outside knowledge that they can then use.

I don't think it applies here since you were modkilled (which is basically saying you *were* telling the truth about having a PR but by accident or whatever, you slipped up and got modkilled for it) so what you say here can't really adversely affect them either way.

If you had been lynched and not modkilled, and it was still debatable if it was a real PR, then mentioning the on-going game is not good.

So PR discussion is fine. Discussion of 'ended' games is fine.

Just be careful since I don't want you modkilled in this game for something fairly silly.


Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Yes, we know talking about ongoing games is bad. Lengthy explanation is unnecessary.

My first comment was to not do it.

After Miteymouse did do it, I felt that I should explain why he shouldn't do it/have done it.

So if you have anything else to contribute, then go ahead.

Corv

[Corvuus]

...................

I don't agree with anyone ever posting simply to avoid a prod.

You have nothing new to add? You could clarify what you think about Primate, SC, me, etc. instead of saying nothing. Go on record with an actual 'stance'.

Saying nothing is horribly anti-town and no townie should actively try to say nothing since it doesn't let others see if you are town or scum and by actually posting and taking a stand, people could see if you were town based on your actions.

With none existent posting, no input, etc. then yeah, I am going to FoS you just for discussion alone.

FoS: MacavityLock

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

so... you are telling me that you can do a PBPA of macavitylock before his post #218 and know everything (his position, thoughts, etc.) that he just said in post #218?

I couldn't and i consider it enough to ask him to state his position clearly and I don't see it as being overzealous especially when he blatantly says he is doing it to avoid a prod.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

.....

we need Primate prodded or replaced.

As for 'withholding thoughts', it is anti-town because town isn't able to get a read on you to see if you are town or scum.

Anyone coasting through the game posting "I agree with this, I disagree with that, nothing much to add, just posting to avoid a prod" are all anti-town sentiments since it tells us nothing about the player who writes it.

You may disagree with my primate PR posts and such, but it is far better for town to have people talk/doing something out there that can be read and interpreted, and not just "I agree/disagree with Corvuus", "I don't get what is going on", etc.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

OMG. This is totally ridiculous. Up until that "post to avoid prod" post, I think I've been doing pretty well. I wouldn't say that I'm the most prolific in this town, but I've been better than some people. At that point, I had no new thoughts, thus

I had no thoughts to withhold

. Re-read me and see if you think I'm more or less of a scum-hunter than the rest of the players.

You are way over-playing this point. Seriously, MM is still at the top of my scum-list, but you're 1A.

---------------------------

I am entitled to my opinion and my opinion is this.

Posting a post and saying, "reading, still thinking, maybe do a PBPA later, etc. etc." is fine.

Posting and blatantly saying "I am posting to avoid a prod" is horrible and should never be done.

I couldn't careless how you compare to other people. That isn't a valid point at all.

If everyone here posted what you said, I would go after them the exact same way since posting 'merely' to avoid a prod is horribly anti-town.

If you post saying, "i have ideas, waiting for primate to respond.", or "interesting, but Primate or SC need to respond". Fine. I can understand and get that.

But I do not think anyone should get away with "posting to avoid a prod", or "posting just to show I am here" without saying anything else since that tacitly allows people to just coast through the game.

You scum hunting or not, others actions, etc. has no bearing on the fact that posting simply to avoid a prod is anti-town. Don't do it.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

No, I didn't say that. I just said it wasn't a tell.

I don't agree with this. He's being anti-town by withholding thoughts.

Antitown =/= scum.

Don't even send Primate a prod, just replace him. Come on mod, don't be antitown. Replace him even if he keeps posting.

>.>

I don't get what you are saying in all of this Cephrir.

I didn't say anti-town = scum. I said and still believe that blatantly posting to avoid a prod is anti-town. It would take a lot (perhaps the moon changing orbit) to change my mind.

He could have posted, "miteymouse, my case on you, any answer?".

He didn't.

"so... still waiting on Primate and such, here is what I think, etc.?" but he didn't.

Instead he posts, "nothing going on in this game except 'don't talk about other games (which was what, 7 posts?, who cares?) and just posting to avoid a prod".

If he is active, playing the game, etc. then why not ask miteymouse? Why not talk or say something?

He did it 'now' but only after I said that posting to avoid a prod is anti-town.

To allow people to do that is just letting people lurk/skim by without them having to do anything while they appear to be doing something.

I'm still waiting on Primate, and then later on SC, and I state that i am waiting for it and looking at it.

Why post just to say, "avoiding prod, no comments".

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I suppose I am over-exuberant and possibly distracting.

Either way, I am waiting on Primate (replacement or not) since I don't believe his PR, and I want to know what he was thinking/doing, etc. and why he voted for SC.

Other than that, SC is my #2.

I FoS'ed Macavity based on principle and to get him to post more.

In particular, he has said that he doesn't believe my posts/arguments and that my attack is weak and such, but then he also says that he believes Primate should be treated just like any normal player (i.e. possible he is faking his PR). This seems to be agreeing with me, but I don't know if he has his own reasons or if he does agree with me now, and his post to avoid prodding is just not acceptable when I don't know where he stands on this and on other issues.

So I stand by what I have done, exuberant/crazy or whatever.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

welcome to our dysfunctional family.

I have ideas/suspicions/case in my head, but mostly it was on/dependent on Primate and he has been AWOL and may be replaced.

So... just read up I guess.

I'm waiting on Primate/replacement and unless something outrageously insane happens (like someone claims scum), I am willing to wait.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I have been fairly busy lately, and then I was waiting for Primate (who is being replaced now), and so I need to re-read and marshall my thoughts again if I want any chance at actually being coherent.

However, it seems many of you think that me unvoting Primate was strange, etc. so I can tell you what I was thinking.

In between his 'picture/ven diagram' posts, he had a post of "splp", and his posts had improved (with ven diagram, etc.) and so I took this as an admission of voluntary PR but that he wanted to continue it and I *said* I wouldn't care for him to post in pictures as long as he admits it is voluntary. I thought I should keep my 'promise' and be consistent since that may be the only reason why he posted what he did and 'admitted' it (at least to me).

If he admitted it directly, then the rest of town might have lynched him immediately based on that alone (trying to pass a PR off when it is voluntary), so I accepted it as a type of 'soft breadcrumb', and unvoted. I wouldn't be giving him a free ride, but I could see that he *could* present a picture case if he really tried, so i was ok to leave it be for that instant.

That was my instant reaction to his posts and the 'splp' post. Anti-town in terms of harder to understand, but not an must lynch.

Then I read the picture posts closer, read SC closer, and read MM's comment about why Primate voted for SC (or has him marked as definite scum in the ven diagram) and that made me begin to consider many things.

Mainly.... hmm... and then I messed up.

I got to make dinner now, but I still want primate (replacement) to respond and a primate/SC exchange.

Corv

[Corvuus]

Wow, this is suddenly moving really fast.

First off, I was already re-reading and now I need to catch up and re-read again.

Immediate response to things that I think I need to say/respond to

- Ythill.

I'm not completely a 'my way or the high way type person'. I just judged that is what I needed to be in this game.

At first, I viewed Primate's posts as amusing and a bit of unusualness, and then it just suddenly irked me when I couldn't get much meta/tells out of it and all the possibilities that meant. I didn't think about it too deeply initially since it wasn't an 'auto-scum' and only so-so anti-town but just something to be explained, so i made my initial lazy half-assed post on him for him to respond to just to see what he could do.

Then when people began to defend him/speak for him, etc. I got incredibly annoyed and decided I have to be "my way or the high way type" and crush everything that defends Primate until I get an answer out of Primate. I was willing to offend, ignore, and attack anyone or anything that tried to let Primate go without answering (mainly SC). Once Primate answered, I was fine with it, but if I wasn't like a mad bulldog then I don't know if he would have answered or if town would just 'drop' it and move on.

and then, once I decided I needed to be this way, I felt that I should be this way, all the way.... but only when I think I will get something out of it.

---------------------------

- Maccavitylock

i just re-read what I said and did, and in hindsight, I could have done things better. That is why I said I messed up, and I shouldn't have gone too overboard in that sense.


.... reading and will post more thoughts later today (hopefully just hours).

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Hi SC,

- Scondly I'm seeing Corvuus's actions as more over-exuberant town than scummy at this point.

That's what I'm leaning towards as well, and I can see what his argument is.

I like both Corv and Macavity as Town players at this time and see them as the least suspicious everyone else is pretty much neutral to me at this time.

Why Corvuus and MacavityLock as town?

I read through Ythill and others posts, and was trying to get a handle on everything and then I decided to try to do a PBPA on you SC... and I am confused on a few points. (mainly because you haven't really posted much, or arguably just 'fluff' posts).

A lot of the discussion has you as #1 (or perhaps #2) on many player's lists. I haven't seen you really comment or say anything about this, or what was previously discussed before. Any comments on Primate/Ythill or anything substantial you wish to contribute?

In particular, I would like to hear your top 3 list and what do you think of Zeppo?

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

My time has become fairly restricted now, I may post less or replace out of some of my other games at some point .

At any rate, I have a fairly newbie question/stance and I don't have the time to edit it to make myself sound intelligent or whatever, so here it is.

1st point -> Most people seem to have SC as scummy and are either willing to vote for him now, or if no one else pops up as more scummy. It doesn't seem like people are going after SC to respond or say anything at all though... which seems weird to me. I want him to post more since I am not 100% convinced yet, and I don't think others are either.

2nd point -> SC... isn't really responding or defending himself. I don't really get why not either. Maybe it is just mindgames for me to assume so, but if SC defended himself fairly decently and actually did some scumhunting then I could see him getting out of being lynched and if he was town, then he would attempt to do so... instead he is just kind of fluffing around and waiting for himself to die. Either non-helpful townie or scum resigned to his fate.... either way, I figure he would say or do something unless him saying more could be harmful to his 'team'.

3rd point -> at some point players start talking about scum buddies, and linking players and such. Frankly, this freaks me out.

Maybe I am just totally new to this, but linking players BEFORE a scum is lynched, is incredibly anti-town/scummy to me. It is like setting players up to take a fall.

Of course, town could do it if they legitimately think the players are individually scummy, but when conversation is, "who are the scum buddies", "who is he buddying with, I can imagine it with SC", etc. it makes me worry.

Sure, it may be legitimate scumhunting and such, getting pressure and getting reactions to get tells.

But what happens if SC *is* scum and we do lynch him, and then we all look back... and scum had already decided to BUS SC and set up 'fall guys' to balance it all out.

Then we spend time lynching the 'linked' players just because they were linked somehow regardless of their individual town/scum-tells.

This strikes me as incredibly bad. My 'interpretation' was that it is mainly as individuals right now (town, anti-town, scum-tells) and then once you do get a scum lynched then you can actually make informed scum buddy analysis.

Analyzing scum buddy before knowing any scum... is just... weird to me.

I made a overly large leap in tying Primate and SC together, and trying to force them to respond mainly because I wanted reactions and comments (since neither were stating anything about the other) and what better way than to say that they are buddies (which should freak almost anyone out)... I didn't 100% believe that they are buddies but it was to get a reaction and get them to post on each other.

If that is the meaning of the questioning/buddy linking going on, then I can understand it. It is for reactions.

However, some of the comments and way that things are said strike me as 'setting' up and that bothers me.

The various scenarios in my mind ... just aren't good. I would have been perfectly willing to wait 'forever' for Primate to return and SC and Primate to post on each other. Instead, Primate replaces out and we get Ythill who does state things against SC.... but... SC doesn't really comment or defend... just says "interesting insights".

I don't get it.

I have ideas on what others have written and said but... the one glaring thing that always comes back to me is what I considered optimum move for town:

1. We don't know if SC is scum or not, we exert pressure/voting him/ and getting a response out of him and let him defend himself. No intent to quicklynch.

2. If he defends himself well and we think he is town, we move on. If he fails, and we think he is scum, then we can talk about it more and still do other things (he isn't going anywhere) but at least we would "know" and can make informed decision, analysis and buddy/linking.

It just seems this course of action is more real and concrete to analyze and look at instead of just linking other players before we know enough about SC (seriously he hasn't said enough to be 100% scum).

The only argument I could have against myself posting this and saying this 'outloud' is that scum would then hide their buddying and severe their connection with SC, etc. but... I believe it has already been done and now it is just trying to buddy/link players who haven't realized it yet.

So... I would like to hear what everyone thinks about this. SC is still my #1 and I would love to hear his thoughts on several things.

I will also say that those being linked seem more pro-town to me and those linking seem more scummy to me. (unless they or others can prove otherwise or show that I am wrong, etc.)

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

huh. interesting. Doc claims are always interesting.

unvote

I agree that a D1 lynch of a claimed doc is a horrible idea... but I want to ask SC, and I respectfully ask everyone else that only SC answers (even if you think my questions stupid/unfair).

SC:

Did you try to 'breadcrumb' or let anyone know you are a doc in your posts?

Would you play a doc role differently than a normal townie role?

What do you wish you had done differently in this game before Primate replaced.

-------------------------------------------------

I've been reading the exchange between Atlas and Ythill, and other posts, but it is still a fair amount of intimidating text. I do think Ythill has some valid points in terms of the timing of certain actions, but I will try to state things in my own words before voting again.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

... I think I am trying to spend too much time 'reading in' to what people are saying so maybe just to make it easier for me... can people include in perhaps their next post or so a "top 2 scum" list for themselves?

I still have suspicions on SC (my previous #1, but I won't lynch a claimed doc), and as for #2... I am confused by Apothecary's statements/defense.

In particular, in a previous post (post #11 of yours in isolation) you state that you think SC is scum.

He claims doc and you later say you don't believe it, but also don't believe he is scum? (post #17).

What changed your mind in between your post 11 and post 17?

I can understand offering various views... but the way you said it seems interesting (in that it seems inconsistent from post 11 to 17) and there really is only 3 possibilities which should be fairly obvious to everyone, so there isn't much need to offer objective view.

Either he is doc, he is scum claiming doc, or he is town claiming doc hoping to live. It isn't a full 'get out of jail free' card since most likely he *will* die before the game is over, one way or another.

SC is my #1 but I can see him dying 'eventually' so I am ok with it.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I simply offered an alternate viewpoint. I don't see why this is arousing this much angst and suspicion. If we all jumped on someone when they offered an alternate view, we'd never get past day 1. I just passed a comment that may or may not have shown others that there isn't a rigid set of scumtells. I thought that was part of the game, to suggest things.

Others can say what they think but let me put it this way.

1st, you say that you think SC is scum.

2nd, SC claims (I don't 100% believe his claim but whatever, we will find out soon).

3rd, you say that you think SC fake-claimed... but now you don't think he is scum.

If you think he is scum before he claimed doc, how does him claiming doc make him not seem scummy now? That is what I don't get.

If you are just stating it as a "viewpoint" then why don't you think SC is scum anymore? If it was just you stating a 'viewpoint' difference (which I don't think it is since it is an obvious viewpoint) then why are you mentioning a 'set of scumtells'.

The only thing I know that people have said "rigidly" is that they won't lynch a claimed doc who isn't counterclaimed and I agree with that. It doesn't mean we all believe SC, it just means we won't necessarily lynch him today (but he will die eventually either by lynch or NK).

Corv

[Corvuus]

I don't get your posts SC.

Can you be... more clear or more sane or whatever... I just feel that none of your posts after your claim have been helpful/informative.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

It just seems like you are enjoying your 'get out of jail free' card entirely too much and your statements are just... bad.

----------

Alright then. I don't believe SC's claim. But I don't believe he's a scum either, but a townie hoping that the claim will shield him from the lynch.

WHAT? This is utter lose. What benefit would vanilla (or other town power) have to gain by avoiding a lynch by claiming doc? It would risk a doc counter-claim (bad for town), an auto-town lynch (aka Lynch all Liars, bad for town), and any number of consequences that would be antithetical to a townie's win condition.

FoS: Apoth

. I'm not excited to have anybody who thinks like this in a game. I'm not sure if a townie would think like this at all, though maybe that comes back to his semi-newb status. Apoth, if you're town, please don't go fake-claiming power to avoid a lynch. That's really bad mojo.

Here, you just hop on and agree with another player, but I don't think you really get what is going on and being said, or that you are even thinking about it at all just as long as it "isn't you".


-------------

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

Quoted for truth, and the only situation I can think of where town would fakeclaim is Kokusho's gambit, which involves neither a doc nor a doc claim.

Vote: Apothecary

Perhaps this is why Apoth got so confused. You are voting him for proposing the idea of vanilla faking doctor. If so, then I have to say that is indeed lame. Proposing the idea of vanilla faking doctor isn't scummy to me, it is that he has you as scum before your claim, and then all of a sudden he says you are vanilla faking a claim.

It looks like you are bandwagoning without even understanding what is going on.

------------------------------------

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

as above, lame. you really aren't trying.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alright then. I personally believe he was just shielding himself from the pressure and decided that it was in his best interests to avoid an immediate lynch. Of course, that is also a defense for scum players, and now I see how that was a bit stupid to suggest that. I apologize, if that's what you want.

OK, but apologies don't change anything. Sorry.

what does your post here add or change to anything? I want to lynch you now just for this statement alone practically.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ha! I'm bankrupting my credibility! Most of us have done that already in this game! Right now you lot are just grasping at straws for quicklynches! That's pretty self destructive in itself.

Are the straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?

What does the above, "straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?" really mean?

I have no freaking idea except that you don't know what is going on and are just posting words and trying to sound like you are keeping up.

ugh...

.....If you are doc, then you are one of the most anti-town docs I have ever seen.

I don't see you and Apoth being scumbuddies tho so the entire situation seems fairly... weird.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Fixing Corvuus's quotes so it's nested correctly:

It just seems like you are enjoying your 'get out of jail free' card entirely too much and your statements are just... bad.

----------

Alright then. I don't believe SC's claim. But I don't believe he's a scum either, but a townie hoping that the claim will shield him from the lynch.

WHAT? This is utter lose. What benefit would vanilla (or other town power) have to gain by avoiding a lynch by claiming doc? It would risk a doc counter-claim (bad for town), an auto-town lynch (aka Lynch all Liars, bad for town), and any number of consequences that would be antithetical to a townie's win condition.

FoS: Apoth

. I'm not excited to have anybody who thinks like this in a game. I'm not sure if a townie would think like this at all, though maybe that comes back to his semi-newb status. Apoth, if you're town, please don't go fake-claiming power to avoid a lynch. That's really bad mojo.

Quoted for truth, and the only situation I can think of where town would fakeclaim is Kokusho's gambit, which involves neither a doc nor a doc claim.

Vote: Apothecary

Here, you just hop on and agree with another player, but I don't think you really get what is going on and being said, or that you are even thinking about it at all just as long as it "isn't you".

MacavityLock and I both agree that it is scummy. He got a chance to respond to the post before I did, and ML had already said what I was going to. My original input here was mentioning Kokusho's Gambit. I understand that my post implies that I'm not pulling the gambit off, but it's simply because I'm not. It's mentioned because, as I said, the gambit is the only situation I could think of where a town-aligned player would fake a claim.

For those unfamiliar with it, in Kokusho's Gambit a cop gets a guilty result on a Mafia, fakeclaims tracker with a result of that Mafia targeting a dead player, and drives that player to claim. After the Mafia claims, he admits being cop with a guilty. Very effective gambit, too.

Am I a cop? No.
Did I claim tracker? No.
Does Kokusho's gambit therefore apply? No.
Can I think of anytime else town would fakeclaim? No.

This is so utter lose. Kokusho's gambit (or whatever) has nothing to do with this. You bringing it up when it doesn't relate and then knocking it down is utterly pointless and I don't count crap as contributing originality.

It also presents a false dilemma in that YOU think that a vanilla townie would never fake claim doc in order to save himself.

I say BS to that.

If you claimed Vanilla, we would almost 80% guaranteed be lynching you right now. The only way to prevent your lynch today is to claim a power role, i.e. doc, regardless of whether you are town, scum or real doc.

I could craft a sane hypothetical with a sane townie claiming doc when there was a real doc in the game and it 'working'.

The hypothetical is completely based on whether the real doc *knows* he shouldn't counterclaim, and he should know based on it being D1.

The townie fake claiming would survive an extra day but probably get NK'ed later that night since mafia would take his claim at face-value. Go town.

If it is scum fake claiming and they survived, then suspicion will come back later, and if the real doc died then they will almost certainly be gg'ed right there. It could be the scum fake claiming to also net the doc with his death, etc.

Either way, a D1 doc claim is the weakest, laziest claim but there is no reason to lynch you now since you will 100% die before the end of the game.

The fact is, I don't believe your doc claim at all, but I know you are dead, so I couldn't careless. The part that annoys me is your statements.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

Perhaps this is why Apoth got so confused. You are voting him for proposing the idea of vanilla faking doctor. If so, then I have to say that is indeed lame. Proposing the idea of vanilla faking doctor isn't scummy to me, it is that he has you as scum before your claim, and then all of a sudden he says you are vanilla faking a claim.

It looks like you are bandwagoning without even understanding what is going on.

Tell me how it's pro-town for vanilla to fake any power role let alone a doctor

AND

how someone in his right mind who's been here 6½ months with more than twenty completed games would do that as vanilla and I'll dismiss this part of Apothecary's case.
[/quote]

I did that above. Just in quick summary. It is D1. There is no need for a counterclaim by real doc. Whether you are town, doc or scum, you will not die this day but you will die eventually. If you were cc'ed then you would and real doc would both die and that would be fairly pointless.

If you know a townie knows this and think others know it (or can insinutate it before real doc counterclaims) then your 'get out of jail free card' doc claim is just postponing your execution which may be good for town.

-------------------------------------------

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

as above, lame. you really aren't trying.

OK, which of the following three do you find scummiest?
A.) Suggesting that vanilla would fakeclaim
B.) Rushing the game
C.) Asking about someone's role

Or, by some chance, are all of the above equally scummy to you, even if none of the above are scummy?
[/quote]

see, you seriously aren't even trying since your above suggestions are silly.

First of all, suggesting that vanilla would fakeclaim in itself isn't scummy. How apoth said it is. I would point out that someone else other than Apoth said the equivalent that you may be vanilla fake claiming, but then again, i don't expect you to have read or seen that.

Second of all, what is your definition of rushing the game? Just because we vote and get someone near L-1, L-2 doesn't mean we *want* the day to end with quicklynch. We can just get information out of it and move on. If the vote actually ended with a lynch on the first person to get to L-1 in the very few pages, then it is suspicious and rushing. If the vote gets to L-1, L-2 and pressure, discussion, etc. and the day moves on then it is fine.

Third, you say asking about someone's role. Asking for a role without any reason at all is horrible. soft claiming, etc. is horrible. Asking you to claim at L-1 and discussing it is a null-tell to me since "everyone" does it.

So in the end, your above 3 questions are utterly fail since you present or consider them as short 'absolutes'. That is why I say you don't make sense or aren't reading/trying.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alright then. I personally believe he was just shielding himself from the pressure and decided that it was in his best interests to avoid an immediate lynch. Of course, that is also a defense for scum players, and now I see how that was a bit stupid to suggest that. I apologize, if that's what you want.

OK, but apologies don't change anything. Sorry.

what does your post here add or change to anything? I want to lynch you now just for this statement alone practically.

I understand but do not buy his defense.
[/quote]

I don't understand and I do not buy yours.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ha! I'm bankrupting my credibility! Most of us have done that already in this game! Right now you lot are just grasping at straws for quicklynches! That's pretty self destructive in itself.

Are the straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?

What does the above, "straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?" really mean?

I am trying to probe exactly what made Apothecary make that statement. I'm not attacking this specific post; I just want to know what he's thinking.
[/quote]

That is what you think your question is doing? getting to know what he's thinking by asking about straw men?

You have an interesting meta SC.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no freaking idea except that you don't know what is going on and are just posting words and trying to sound like you are keeping up.

I do indeed know what's going on, and I am reading this game.
[/quote]

I don't believe you. but I am content to see you die eventually. I just don't get how you can spew anti-town remarks from beginning of the game until now and say you know what is going on and am keeping up.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see you and Apoth being scumbuddies tho so the entire situation seems fairly... weird.

Any specific reasoning for this?

Yes, but you could see it if you read. So since you are reading and keeping up, go back and read.


Corv

[Corvuus]

This is so utter lose. Kokusho's gambit (or whatever) has nothing to do with this. You bringing it up when it doesn't relate and then knocking it down is utterly pointless and I don't count crap as contributing originality.

Kokusho's gambit was presented as the only pro-town fakeclaim I could think of. Since it does not apply, of course I brought it up so I could knock it down, but it was part of my case against him.

The rest of this part of my post is on you than Apothecary, but it's more "you should have told me earlier" than scummy. Here goes:

I could only think of pro-town fakeclaiming as town pulling Kokusho's gambit.
The only way someone can think of ≠ the only way period.
Therefore, pro-town fakeclaiming ≠ town pulling Kokusho's gambit per se.
Furthermore, I was not aware of any pro-town reasons to fakeclaim other than Kokusho.

You should have specifically brought up your explanation of why it would be pro-town for town to fakeclaim doc below the moment you saw me vote Apothecary for the same.

It also presents a false dilemma in that YOU think that a vanilla townie would never fake claim doc in order to save himself.

See above.

If you claimed Vanilla, we would almost 80% guaranteed be lynching you right now. The only way to prevent your lynch today is to claim a power role, i.e. doc, regardless of whether you are town, scum or real doc.

I understand that. I also understand that town would much rather be nightkilled than lynched, but at the same time they should not be worrying about self-preservation.

I could craft a sane hypothetical with a sane townie claiming doc when there was a real doc in the game and it 'working'.

The hypothetical is completely based on whether the real doc *knows* he shouldn't counterclaim, and he should know based on it being D1.

The townie fake claiming would survive an extra day but probably get NK'ed later that night since mafia would take his claim at face-value. Go town.

If it is scum fake claiming and they survived, then suspicion will come back later, and if the real doc died then they will almost certainly be gg'ed right there. It could be the scum fake claiming to also net the doc with his death, etc.

See above.

Either way, a D1 doc claim is the weakest, laziest claim but there is no reason to lynch you now since you will 100% die before the end of the game.

What other option do I have as a doc at L-1, claiming something else? To sit there or claim vanilla is tantamount to suicide. The only other role I can think of claiming is jailkeeper, and for that to work the doctor would have to be paranoid. You rarely know your sanity if you're starting on Day 1, and even in night starts, figuring out you're paranoid takes awhile.

It is D1. There is no need for a counterclaim by real doc. Whether you are town, doc or scum, you will not die this day but you will die eventually. If you were cc'ed then you would and real doc would both die and that would be fairly pointless.

If you know a townie knows this and think others know it (or can insinutate it before real doc counterclaims) then your 'get out of jail free card' doc claim is just postponing your execution which may be good for town.

OK, point understood and case dismissed.

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

as above, lame. you really aren't trying.

OK, which of the following three do you find scummiest?
A.) Suggesting that vanilla would fakeclaim
B.) Rushing the game
C.) Asking about someone's role

Or, by some chance, are all of the above equally scummy to you, even if none of the above are scummy?

see, you seriously aren't even trying since your above suggestions are silly.

First of all, suggesting that vanilla would fakeclaim in itself isn't scummy. How apoth said it is. I would point out that someone else other than Apoth said the equivalent that you may be vanilla fake claiming, but then again, i don't expect you to have read or seen that.[/quote]
Rather than keeping to yourself (which is scummy) hoping that I die, why don't you bring it up?

Second of all, what is your definition of rushing the game?

Asking people to mindlessly bandwagon someone.

Just because we vote and get someone near L-1, L-2 doesn't mean we *want* the day to end with quicklynch. We can just get information out of it and move on. If the vote actually ended with a lynch on the first person to get to L-1 in the very few pages, then it is suspicious and rushing. If the vote gets to L-1, L-2 and pressure, discussion, etc. and the day moves on then it is fine.

Ythill already shot down my rushing argument against him by saying he was the only vote on Atlas, but given the situations you talk about here I'm having a hard time why you don't think rushing is scummy, especially when you mention otherwise.

Third, you say asking about someone's role. Asking for a role without any reason at all is horrible. soft claiming, etc. is horrible. Asking you to claim at L-1 and discussing it is a null-tell to me since "everyone" does it.

What I was trying to get at has nothing to do with my being asked to claim. That was supposed to a reference to Zeppo007 asking about Primate's role. You imply here that his doing so is horrible, so why are you attacking it being scummy as nonsense?

Ha! I'm bankrupting my credibility! Most of us have done that already in this game! Right now you lot are just grasping at straws for quicklynches! That's pretty self destructive in itself.

Are the straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?

What does the above, "straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?" really mean?

I am trying to probe exactly what made Apothecary make that statement. I'm not attacking this specific post; I just want to know what he's thinking.

That is what you think your question is doing? getting to know what he's thinking by asking about straw men?

Exactly; more specifically, if he thinks we're guilty of straw man arguments. I won't drop it at that; it's a statement I still plan on working with after he answers what I asked.[/quote]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

eh, i read what you wrote and you didn't say anything at all. You aren't really reading.

Pretty much everything you said is wrong.

1. I didn't need to bring up why town would fakeclaim doc since it was already said. You are going to die either way, so I don't understand your argument. The point is for Apoth.

2. Zeppo's asking is certainly anti-town, especially if it exposes a role, but it isn't necessarily scummy. I don't like how you think tells are absolutes. Primate was posting pictures on you (SC) being guaranteed scum. He either knows by role knowledge (i.e. being scum himself) or he is just voting you for 'unknown' reasons. Zeppo may be noob who didn't see any evidence to explain his voting so he simply assumed it was role based and that there was a Night0. There was no N0 so Zeppo should never have even considered this, which is why I think it more likely just 'noob' anti-town than actual scum. If that is all you have on zeppo, then LOL. (note, this is consistent with what I said above since I perceived the reason for zeppo asking and deemed it a anti-town/null-tell).

3. Apoth never used straw man arguments or said that. He said we were grasping at straws because he perceived us to be voting him for based on what he considers a 'null-tell'.

But sure, by all means, go ahead and post some discussion on straw men and something useful. I would love to see your case on Apoth.

4. I think all of my above statements (and from my previous post) are consistent with themselves and clear. The fact that you read piecemeal (i.e. one sentence at a time) is amusing. Perhaps if I say it in 4 sentences right next to each other you will get it.

I think rushing and getting a quicklynch is scummy.
We don't have the same definition of rushing.
I think rushing would be actually lynching them without discussion
since 'mindlessly' bandwagoning can give info -> not necessarily scummy.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

eh, real life/turkey day is draining my time.

I will just mention this.

--------------------------------------------

Elmo, I explained this! It was merely another viewpoint that I incorrectly structured.

--

Alright then. I don't believe SC's claim. But I don't believe he's a scum either, but a townie hoping that the claim will shield him from the lynch.

I am however concerned with Ythill concentrating on Atlas. It just seems to be a bit odd how he wants more people to vote him, when I believe there are people who need more pressure.

----

No, I'm just trying to show an objective view point. Yes, I view claims with suspicion, but I can choose what I believe that person might be. To Ythill, I wasn't asking you to change your vote. I was just suggesting that there may be scummier people out there and that you shouldn't try to start a bandwagon. But I'm quite suspicious of the quick swing to voting me as a response to my feelings.

--------------------------------------------

You are stating that it was another viewpoint that you incorrectly structured? I don't see how your statement that "you don't believe SC's claim, but you don't think he is scum either" is an objective viewpoint or can be seen like that.

You stated very clearly that you don't think SC is scum. But in

Personally, after reading through that post, I do believe that SC is scum. I don't want to basically reiterate what you've already said, as that seems a little pointless. You outline good arguements on everyone.

Macavity has been doing a lot of discussion since the beginning of the game, so I believe he's townie. He picks up on a lot of points and gets people talking. I think he's been doing a lot of scum hunting.

I do think Zeppo is breathing a little much into SC coming to MM's defense. But he's just searching for any tells that might help further the game. He's also quite analytical of posts at times.

Also, I still think that Cephrir is scum. Especially if you read page 3.

you say that you do believe he is scum. Why would it go from scum fakeclaiming to save himself to town fake claiming to defend himself?

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Hi Everyone,

I have presentation this week, final next, and conference the week after (ASCB) coming up so my time is going to be extremely limited.

I think I may actually replace out of this game since I may not be able to contribute much and I don't want to drag things down.

I read through the posts but still, notes are fairly a jumble, so my current position/take is:

In terms of Ythill/Llama and such, I understand and get the whole 'wall of text' and polarizing issue pretty well now..

I view Ythill as town (based on actions/defense/response) while I don't see Llama being that scummy. So I can imagine it being two town biting each other's heads off and I don't think Ythill or Llama are going to be lynched today (at least, based on what I see) just like SC isn't going to be lynched today either.

So, I vote to move on and go after one of the 'less town/more scum' looking players.

---------------------------------------------------

I'm not fully satisfied with Apoth's answer but I don't think jumping up and down on it alone is going to help. Instead, I will ask Apoth for his top 2 scum (1 may be SC still) and try to do a PBPA of Apoth.

It just strikes me as fairly strange what you said and did.

In your first few posts, you ask if we are out of the random voting stage on onto tangible evidence.

I made my first comment on Primate's picture posts and then you made the following post.

-----------------------------------------------------

It kinda sucks that we're arguing over whether or not we should be allowed to post in pictures rather than words. When we're playing mafia!

just to get discussion moving

Vote: Corvuus

I think your interpretation of what was going on is fairly suspect. and I also don't see how voting me to get discussion moving made sense to you.

I was already giving my reasons and taking a 'stand' and for your arguments about 'bandwagoning' a person for speaking in pictures, it seems funny that you may be attempting to bandwagon a person for offering the alternative viewpoint that primate is faking and Primate has to explain why he is posting in pictures. I also stated that I viewed it as anti-town and I was voting primate to get him to respond, not to lynch him, so I don't like how you interpret that differently.

I simply chose Corvuus because it was a random vote. There was no malicious intent intended. But I'm a little confused about Primate's Vendiagram. Does the fact I'm in a seperate bubble mean my allegiance is undecided?

I don't see why you say you choose me as a random vote. Your first few posts specifically asked if we were out of the random voting stage, and you voted me for discussion. So why is it a random vote? I was making a case on Primate's "PR" so it is already out of the random voting stage and such.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did find it kind of odd SC didn't try to defend himself from Primate's accusations. But I don't know if that's a sign of a passive scum or a passive townie.

I don't get this statement or your conclusion at all. You state that you found it odd, so you have been reading and seeing everything, correct?

you then state, "I don't know if it is a sign of (SC being) a passive scum or a passive town".

This statement doesn't make sense and is one of the things I was going after SC for. SC was not being passive but was being active in Fosing and going after people for 'slips' and such and "scumhunting". My point on SC was why was he active in regards to some, but then he completely ignored Primate's accusation against him without Primate supplying any evidence, etc.

So what do you mean by SC is being a passive town or a passive scum?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In your post 6 and 7, I think your reasoning is fairly interesting and I have my own interpretation of it.

Perhaps the reason why I became very hostile towards 'everyone' is because from my point of view, I was asking and voting something "reasonable" and not trying to lynch primate at all and then people seemed to be 'willfully' misinterpreting me in a completely different way. (although I did not present it very clearly and such)

I never said I wanted to lynch Primate, I said I wanted him to respond and that I didn't believe his PR and such. I gave the example of the end game scenario as to why we should discuss it "now" and not for why we should "lynch" him now. I never liked how everyone assumed I was trying to lynch him but since pretty much everyone assumed it/was against me, I don't claim any tells from it but I do think your comments in particular are fairly bad.

In your post #6, you state you can interpret Primate (which we started asking if anyone could and most had to admit that they couldn't, in particular SC made the same claim but he couldn't say why Primate thought he was scum) and you also present that I am either extremist townie or I am scum going after people who don't post.

At this time, there were you and others who don't "post alot" and I didn't go after them at all, so I think your suggestion here is fairly scummy. I went after Primate specifically because of the picture PR and I wanted him to post more to understand him better. So that is a gross misrepresentation by presenting it as an either case.

Your post #7 is also a fairly large misrepresentation and post #9 is just amusing to me. You never called me out and I don't see how you can claim that. Even when I was being "extremist" you didn't vote for me, oh wait, you did, with your "random" vote.

But you specifically state that you called me out, so that must mean your initial random vote was calling me out? even tho you state that it was random with no malicious intent behind it? That also doesn't make sense.

--------------------

In post #11, you state two interesting things.

First, that you see SC as being scum and then second is that you "still" think Cephrir is scum. I will leave the SC part alone but why do you state "still think" Cephrir is scum when you haven't posted anything on Cephrir at all? When did that occur? You later mention page #3 as for why you voted and how we were past the random voting stage already and that voting without explanation is bad... and yet... you voted for me in the exact same way and then claimed it was a random vote and your vote and explanation was done on page #7-8.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The posts that follow are mainly about SC's doc claim and now that I re-read them, it strikes me that you are insanely hypocritical.

You state in post #22
"I simply offered an alternate viewpoint. I don't see why this is arousing this much angst and suspicion. If we all jumped on someone when they offered an alternate view, we'd never get past day 1. I just passed a comment that may or may not have shown others that there isn't a rigid set of scumtells. I thought that was part of the game, to suggest things."

Yet you didn't treat me like this at all. I offered an alternate viewpoint (Primate was faking a PR) and many people did jump on me. Your response, answers and the fact that almost everything you said or did is hypocritical because you did the exact same thing strikes me as funny and also scummy.

You vote Cephrir for not explaining his vote after random voting is over, yet you do the same. You claim random voting when it clearly isn't. You make conclusions on 'passiveness' and such which also don't make sense as well. I still don't get the leap you make in going from "SC is scum" to SC is fake claiming and such.

Maybe I am crazy, but Apoth and SC just don't make much sense to me as players.

Voth Apoth

Corvuus
P.S. sorry for lack of editing and such, time is not infinite

[Corvuus]

Looks like the wagon on me is still rolling after all.

Corvuus, I didn't vote you for being extremist against Primate. I was voting because I thought we needed to move the game on. You're making look like I was calling you out on it. And if I recall, I said it was difficult but not impossible to interpret primate's posting. I can see what you mean by it, as I said I was trying to get a reaction from you. But most votes are used to get reactions. I never attacked you for offering an alternate viewpoint. I offered my views on you in post 227. I also said it was "silly to lynch" you over such a trivial thing.
Also, that particular suspicion was already noted by LlamaFluff in 275. I later came to the conclusion that you were a townie.

I'll post my two suspects when I get back.

That doesn't make sense and it seems like a blatant lie since you aren't consistent with yourself.

Your post #3, you vote for me. You asked in the previous two posts if we were out of random voting and you vote me to get discussion going.

You get asked why voting for Corvuus instead of say ANYONE else and you say it is a random vote.

Later on, you vote for Cephrir for 'being out of random voting stage' when your vote for me is after Cephrir's 'random baseless' vote. You then state yourself (not me) that you called me out and you had your vote on me... from your 'random' vote.

This is chronological order right? So don't say I am twisting your words when it is what you posted.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't want a long post, so here is short points.

1. Your vote for me was to get a reaction out of me or was it a random vote? You state it was random before, but later you state it was for a reaction/calling me out. Which is it?

Sidenote: If it was for a reaction, what kind of reaction were you expecting?

2. You are using 'later' posts to redefine your earlier position. I don't care about what you are saying in post 227, since that is your view later, not earlier. I don't see how you can claim voting for me when I was going after Primate's PR is moving discussion forward; voting for me to "call me out" (in your own words) is voting for me based on my alternative viewpoint, otherwise how did you call me out?

3. You stated that scum is on your bandwagon earlier, so how hard is it to list top 2 scum?

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

i'm not too sure what to say or add at this point.

Regardless of SC's true alignment, he will die at some point.

Ythill/Llama, i think it is better for town to wait until later to worry about it.

I guess it depends on what Apoth says next but even if it is the most amazing post known to man, I am not sure what I would do then other than still lynching him.

I do think that before we lynch we should have everyone mention their top 2 scum picks at least?

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I guess it is just being balanced.

I don't think it is good to lynch anyone without knowing where everyone sort of is since by virtue of stating their top suspicion at least, they would have to comment or say something about it. So while it may be controlling and scum could use it, I think town could use it just as well, and potentially also better.

I also think the argument is somewhat moot since several people have stated their scum-town leanings on players and based on what people have said alone, I have an idea of what to expect later regardless of who everyone says are their top 2.

Corv

[Corvuus]

are we waiting on Jazz? He is away for real life issues and I think we can still hear more from and about others (in particular MM).

.....

.....

I don't want a lynch just yet but sitting around 'waiting' for information when it may not be coming is bleh.

I also want to say my suspicions before the day is over.

Corv

[Corvuus]

eh, just me being me I guess.

apoth didn't convince me much, my thoughts on SC don't matter too much right now but I think he is more likely scum than not but time will tell, and I think setup will either be 2 or 3 scum and I do have a suspicion for who a third might be, but it is more furious speculation than anything like concrete evidence.

... i.e. i have a gut suspicion, i don't know how to explain it or what particular point gave it to me but I think I will either re-read figure it our or just say it before the day ends.

Corv

[Corvuus]

I have a ASCB biology conference next week, 15th to 19th so I will be V/LA during that time.

Corvuus is ok with lynching Apoth. I just don't like the defense of "not into the game" since I've seen players who 'actively lurk', get called on it, and then they all say that and not much else. .

While it is possible for a townie to legitimately say and do that, I think in Apoth's case (ask about random voting stage, Primate/SC case, etc.) inclines me to see it as more likely scum than 'lazy' town.

I do think MM should post more... just so we have a better idea about meta, etc.

.....

On my 'incomplete' re-read, I think I would be ok going after Llama/Ythill (leaning more ythill now).

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

today is last day of my ASCB conference in SF so I am still V/LA to a degree but I will definitely be able to pick up speed and post by tomorrow.

However, I did come to check in (one of my other games was supposed to be at deadline for 17th) and my current impression is this:

SC I feel should die but I was willing to wait until a different day (tomorrow). I'd prefer SC to at least say something before anyone lynches him tho.

My reasoning being: If SC *is* doc, scum will NK him and we have chance of lynching scum somewhere else. If SC isn't doc but town, he will get NK'ed giving us more time. If he is scum (and doesn't die all the way until lylo) then as long as we get the other scum, it is basically game.

So while i dislike his play style and everything SC does/did, I think trying to lynch a different scum/scummy player is 'better' than the 'easy' lynch of SC. SC's alignment isn't certain to me so I think time will tell.

.... then again, lynching SC now (and if he is scum) helps for scumbuddy analysis and no mislynch.

Anyways, that is my quick thought before heading out for breakfast.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

my conference just ended and I will be flying back.

I already stated how I dislike SC and want him to die "at some point". I dislike his doc claim and it's laziness and such but I still think it comes down to this:

If we totally disbelieve his claim and all 'power role fake claimers' are liars, and he is scum, then we lynch him.

If he is town fakeclaiming or doc, he will die 'eventually' by town or mafia killing him at some point on or right before lylo.

So.... i could give analysis about which is 'best in town interest' and 'maximized' efficiency and such and I probably would wait on lynching SC until later (lylo-ish) but.... I find I agree with Elmo over ythill right now.

I do believe SC is scum hiding behind a fake claim. I do believe lynching him and "verifying" his scumminess would help for scumhunting and looking at scumbuddies. I dislike Apoth's defense and comments and such but.... I think SC is more scummy and if SC turns up scum I would be less inclined to think Apoth is his scumbuddy (or at least I would need to be convinced by more) and in that case, we would lynch correctly and avoid mislynch.

So.... I agree with lynching SC.

I would like at least another post from SC before he is hammered but before deadline I am willing to choose and hammer SC over Apoth.

unvote

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

...

I agree that I think self-hammering in this case is a sign of scum but we will find out soon anyways.

I would have rather he say or at least attempt to say more (we could know more about scumbuddies and such) but I will admit that what i was suspicious of earlier but didn't know how to put into words is that I think SC was scum and that most likely Ythill would be his scumbuddy in that case and that is what my 'sense' was telling me but I would need to re-read and show which posts and such for Primate/SC.

But I guess we will find out.

Going to be back home soon.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

huh.

interesting.

i actually liked the whole SC-Primate (ythill) scumbuddy thing because of the PR and everything but now i'm confused as heck. What in the world was SC possibly thinking in letting Primate say he was scum by venn diagram?

ugh.

got to re-read.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Tracker

my first time seeing a tracker in an actual game. basically he 'tracks' someone and can see their night action "target" but not the night action performed.

Corv

[Corvuus]

ugh... SC was fairly over the place. Still doesn't make sense to me. Mainly because my main reasons for SC being scum were apparently for the wrong reasons but it was right in the end.

bleh.

His voting and FoSing is strange. In terms of meta, I assumed his reason for ignoring Primate (when he had voted/FoSed on smaller things) was because of favoritism/scumbuddy, but apparently SC just ... ignored Primate... for no real reason except perhaps the PR would make him 'useless' and controllable for late game. I still don't see why Primate said SC was certain scum in venn or why SC ignored it.

If anything, I may re-read and build a case against people SC voted against since SC (as scum) seems like the type of person to vote his scumbuddies.

The other strange post from SC is his post here where we say not to speculate on setup... and then SC goes ahead and speculates on setup.

I don't think it helps us to speculate on setup and such until after we get a few dead bodies to see what role/flavor there really is. Otherwise it is a mod WIFOM isn't it?

I agree with you here. We have to wait until Night 1 to get a idea of how many groups we're dealing with.

Assuming we have no doctors or roleblockers:
One person dies Night 1 = just the one Mafia
Two people die Night 1 = Mafia/Mafia, Mafia/SK, or Mafia/Vig
Three people die Night 1 = Most likely Mafia/SK/Vig, though Mafia/Mafia/Vig isn't too far-fetched an idea. Mafia/Mafia/SK is unlikely in a mini normal.

Simply speaking, we don't know what groups we're dealing with simply because we're all alive. We shouldn't be outguessing the mod, and anybody already trying to do so on page four should be viewed as suspicious for knowing more about the setup than the town should.

I agree with what Atlas is saying as well.

I don't understand why SC would say this, but SC as a scum roleblocker saying this strikes me as strange since he is lying and misrepresenting from the first line but he should have a reason for doing this so perhaps based on scum powers/knowledge, he knows or is worried about 'another group' (whether SK, Vig, or 2nd mafia group).

I don't understand why Mafia would target Ythill... I think town considered him most likely to be lynched day 2.... so either there is a Vig/SK or Ythill's statement of "Sure, vote for me so I don't get NK'ed" made mafia think he was a power role (or maybe prior breadcrumbing) occurred... and that isn't even including other stuff...

bleh, too many 'power roles'.

bleh.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Eh, I would need to be convinced more of Apoth-SC being scumbuddies.

SC 'had' technically saved himself with his doc claim, so why would he need to 'BUS' and argue and post "lets just lynch Apoth already" if Apoth was his scumbuddy.

If Apoth turned up scum, it wouldn't clear SC in any way since he would die later/eventually and then scum would be definitely down 2 players and have almost no chance of winning.

It just isn't a smart play at all for SC as scum to try to lynch Apoth as scum (assuming they are on the same team... of scum... bleh). So if you have arguments for Apoth being scummy, then go for it, I probably just won't accept arguments that Apoth is SC's scumbuddy as for why Apoth should be lynched.

.....

....

eh, I just read something that rubs me the wrong way.

Vote OGML

Maybe i'm just crazy, but somehow I feel I just gained a moment of clarity.

Short version: You know too much and your wording in saying scum is only 2, ythill are you trying to convince me you are the last scum, etc. (referencing knowledge several times) makes me think there are 2 scum groups; SC-someone, OGML-someone; OGML just trying to eliminate the competition by going after SC-Ythill.

I'm fine with being extremist and paranoid so I will go with this in addition to MM's tells. The mod description at the beginning does mention 'gangs/groups' and with SC's post/admission/paranoia I think it is most likely the case.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post.

Vote OGML

[Corvuus]

eh, I think I am out of my depth here.

I need to re-read and try to make sense of everything... or maybe I am just obsessing with what SC was doing/saying and thinking it has to be logical/make sense.

I did re-read a bit of Cephrir and while I originally thought (back during Primate) that he was more town-leaning, I do see what you guys mean and I had considered MM to be town earlier as well and was thinking of various motives/reasonings going on. I attributed them mostly to Ythill trying to pull something but oh well.

Unvote, Vote Cephrir

There are a few things that rub me the wrong way. Some is what OGML mentioned in setting up MM and various wording, some is just the style of declaring players town and such and then shifting it. Whether Apoth, Primate(ythill) or other, it just seems hard to stick anything.

So maybe my concepts are crazy but it's where I am at right now.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

hm.

I would like to hear from Macavitylock about all of this. Especially since he is being painted as being tomorrow's potential lynch so he needs to speak up 'now'.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Elmo:

LOL .

I don't know any insightful question I could ask and answer .

I've far too paranoid in this game. I still feel disappointed that Ythill wasn't scum and all my conspiracy theories/ideas are for naught.

What I see/think are scum/anti-town/town tells doesn't seem to be the 'norm' or working so I'm kind of at a lost.

I don't see OGML busing SC like that. Nor Apoth being SC's scumbuddy (although, why did Apoth say SC was town fake claiming?) I guess it is 'possible' but then I just don't think SC (as scum) would ever try to bus his own scumbuddy in that situation since even if we lynched Apoth-scum, we would lynch SC-scum 'eventually' so it would almost be a guaranteed lost for scum. Either SC wasn't sane (and Apoth is scumbuddy) or SC went to wagon a townie. I think it is more likely wagoning a townie especially due to SC's inane comments and such... but if it comes to lylo then Apoth may have to die.

For Ceph... I just don't know. I can see it going either way.

Ceph-town: trying to break Primate's PR, trying to wagon for information?, going after lurkers?... I guess I just don't see why Ythill-Llama and why Ceph or SC would go after the 'easy/lurker' players instead of others?

Ceph-scum: Trying to break Primate's PR in order to get him lynched or maybe just trying to distance himself from SC's stance? Trying to throw mud on other players, trying to get townies lynched and set up buddy lynching?

So I may be missing something but... I can see it go either way on Ceph and I'm leaning on Ceph-scum side.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Llama:

My earlier vote on OGML is based more on paranoia and possibility of there being 2 different scum groups (whether mafia or sk, whatever).

I don't believe OGML as scumbuddy of SC but I just thought OGML knew too much in regards to saying "convincing me you are the last scum" or that "there is only 2 scum" and such. But he did answer and in context he had said 3 scum possibilities and Ythill would be the last one and the 2 comment is based on SC's strange speculation and seeming paranoia.

General consensus seems to be that there is only 1 mafia group (most likely 3 ppl, 2 if SC's behavior is considered?) and I can see Cephrir-SC potential (even in my 2 scumgroups scenario).

I probably speculate too much in terms of why Ythill was the NK, why did SC/Primate act the way they did and such, but bleh.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

ugh.

unvote

while I re-read.

I'd prefer a lynch over a no lynch/deadline but I would like to hear more from qwints and while (as I said before) I can see Ceph-scum, I was 50-50 on it but now i'm less than 50% on board for ceph-scum so I think discussion/re-reading is worth it.

More discussion from Ceph would be nice as well too.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

really?

Your post makes me glad I unvoted since your statement doesn't make sense at all.

You say Ceph is scum and Macavitylock is scum (buddies or groups, whatever) and I can't imagine you thinking there are 4 scum in this game so you can't *really* think I am scum if they are. And unless my unvoting to re-read, hear qwints and get clearer in regards to the game is a huge scum-tell to you over everything else, I don't see how you would say I am not town 'now' and such.

So... guess what.

"My confidence in OGML being town just plummeted drastically."

If anything, you should be trying to discuss and convince me since I am 'not' clear and not try this 'half-baked' bully type of 'you doing that isn't very town!!!'.

I guess I am a stubborn, paranoid, extremist. Either way, Ceph isn't getting my vote until I re-read, hear from Qwints and such. If you really want him lynched so badly, you still have Apoth, Elmo and such to work on.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Hopefully everyone else checks in now after the server/site move.

I didn't finish re-reading yet.

Corv

[Corvuus]

maybe cause i'm a slow reader.

Cor

[Corvuus]

Trying to re-read everyone is so-so in terms of helpfulness so I just re-read Ceph more in isolation and OMGL/MM.

Here is my view of Ceph and thoughts on the game:

Ceph's first couple of votes are random stage-ish so I will ignore those. He does like to vote and say 'reasons later' but that isn't insanely horrible to me.

His first serious vote was to get Primate to stop his 'voluntary' PR.

He then FoS' and votes for SC... and basically never votes or FoS' *anyone* else for the rest of the time (at least that I can see except for MM when he is *asked to place his vote*). He unvotes after SC's claim but doesn't vote Apoth (or FoS apoth or do that much in the beginning) but then he comes out with MM (OGML now) as being SC's scumbuddy.

That... is probably the single most 'darning evidence'. SC as scum claims doc in attempt to kill a real doc (if we have one), survives another round (but he will be lynched eventually before end of game), Ceph gets on SC's wagon to look townie (Ceph has voted or FoS SC the entire game practically), *AND* Ceph stays off Apoth so that when town lynches town, the odds of there being "no scum" on the wagon at all is slim and by setting MM (OGML) as SC's scumbuddy when SC does flip scum, MM (OGML) may be lynched next as the fall guy and thus the end game is 'do-able' since SC's scum lynch would cost town at least 3 players so scum team can still 'eek' out a win.

I guess if Ceph had ever addressed more why MM/OGML was scummy, then I would be less certain but... MM being replaced by OGML threw out the old plan of 'pinning the guilt on the newbie MM' who would have been ineffective at defending himself from being a scumbuddy lynch. Ceph 'backtracking' from OGML as scum and not really being able to say why MM/OGML was scum/scummy and why they were buddies... makes me believe it is a scum ploy and that Ceph is scum (plus Ceph-SC interaction with each other, and comments when I made my illogical leap from Primate to SC being scum).

Ceph also had ample time to defend himself and this position but he hasn't, even when I unvoted and he could have come out and said many things to try to convince me and such... instead, I just re-read, re-think and find that I do see OGML's point of Ceph trying to pawn MM off as scumbuddy, etc. and that, in addition to other points, brings me back to...

vote Cephrir

You had a chance to convince me before my re-read; but now I am certain.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Ceph: do you have anything to say about my post?

As to why I might be wrong, tunnel visioned or anything like that?

Cor

[Corvuus]

Your post does make me consider and worry that this may be a mislynch but you are still NOT being helpful and trying.

and all your self-pity type wording with "I am the lynch for the day, I give up" is just silly. If you think OGML's case is crap, and Qwints is scummy, then go for it. The players who said that they will vote for you and even I have said that your attitude isn't helping.

As I said, I can imagine it being 50-50 still. You could be town and be town doing all those things and this is a mislynch and it could all make sense. Or you could be scum and scum doing all those things and it would all make sense as well.

Stating that "it sucks that the entire argument is based on me being already scum" and then giving up is kind of dumb.

OGML is not a unstoppable juggernaut and automatic steamroll over you and get you lynched. To say he is, is a cop-out.

All in all, I don't see why you didn't write what you wrote just now earlier and tried to make a better and clearer defense than your first 'initial defense'. You said it before that your vote on MM was based on MM being scum (independently) and that you thought SC was scum (independently) but I don't see why you said MM was SC's scumbuddy (as opposed to just being scummy) back when you said it and part of my reason for voting for you now is that your case on MM is pretty crappy.

MM never did say SC was a beacon of pro-towniness. If anything MM was wary of SC's claim and a potential 'scum' wing from him. Your 'FoS/vote/scum' read on MM doesn't fit for me. I didn't think MM had been particularly scummy or scummy enough to get a "sc-buddy" mention as opposed to a 'lurker' mention and several other things you said make it seem strange.

I.e. you said it would be impossible for MM to get through the game without a wagon on him. He did have a wagon on him early (due to random votes and other stuff i think) and his play made me consider him town (due to my read of him and his other games i know). Maybe the SC-MM interaction is the buddy linking you are thinking of, but SC... well.. he *always* does that and he is virtually always scummy in all his games. So SC's comments, your comments and MM's comments still lead me towards MM being newbie town, SC as scum, and Ceph as potential SC scumbuddy.

If anything I also re-read SC and SC... is an interesting player. He said he had scum vibes from Cephrir (for mindlessly bandwagoning, not explaining votes, etc.) and Zeppo and Ythill. Then after his whole claim/doc and such, he says Zeppo and Ythill look ok to him now with no mention of Cephrir. SC even says that he has reason to believe Cephrir is town but he never gives his reasons (post#105). If anything Ceph is more likely SC's scumbuddy than MM.

I have various other things and reads but my head is hurting and I think I should organize them better.

Ceph, you need to keep going if you want to convince me otherwise I am still ok with your lynch.

Corv

[Corvuus]

Elmo:

i'm fairly new to this but why does Ceph seem more town the longer the wagon 'stalls/goes on'.

I mean, he *could* be scum and that is why scum aren't finishing him off, etc. etc. and town just needs to finish it from going on longer.

Or he *could* be town, and scum are either already on the wagon or staying off and laughing their heads off as we lynch a townie.

Either case, I don't see how the 'length' of the wagon makes Ceph more likely to be town unless I am missing some kind of logical fallacy.

Corv

[Corvuus]

Cephrir: I guess you could always self-hammer but then that is the whole sc-scum self-hammer thing and I guess I do get a feeling (like Elmo mentioned) that it could be a mislynch...

but then you could still be doing something about it! Make a read, bring out a case, heck even a "keep an eye on this guy after I am gone" type thing (which you did say for OGML) but anything else at all?

I mean, it still gives us nothing to convince us you 'aren't' scum and if i wake up tomorrow, I'm either going to feel:

"Dang, I feel dumb for mislynching Ceph-town"
or
"Dang, I feel dumb for almost not lynching Ceph-scum".

Right now, I hope it is the later but what else can I say without you being more helpful?

Cor

[Corvuus]

hmm.

going to have to consider this a bit.

re-reading and also not a lot of time right now (Chinese New Year weekend).

Cor

[Corvuus]

hey,

sorry, been pretty busy/out of it lately.

I won't be hammering qwints yet but I do think Qwints should claim now.

---

I don't like Apoth continuing his posts the way he does, but I still think Apoth is more likely town than lurking scum from SC stuff.

----

Qwints: Is your case on Apoth just him currently being 'use-impaired'/lurking? When SC got lynched as scum, you seemed to think Apoth was town then, so what happened to change your mind?

----

For the case on Qwints:

The part about the vote on Cephrir, the timing, wording and such. (which is what Elmo, etc. discussed) is one part (and I do see the point) but I guess, to me, something that I wondered about at the time was when SC went from being 'claimed doc, unlynchable' to lynch of the day within a incredibly short span of time.

I, and others, disliked SC's scumminess, play, etc. and... if I had more guts, I probably would have did what OGML did which is say lets lynch him anyway because we think he is lying but I didn't think it would be that simple/'easy'. OGML's post was that since a majority of us (me, Qwints, etc.) thought SC was scummy and lying, then we should get over our 'innate fear' to lynch doc and should lynch him anyway.

Ythill (and I) disagreed since SC would be lynched 'eventually' which is true and I also stated the fact along with Qwints stating it as well (in different words) that SC would die eventually so we didn't need to do it 'now'.

We all consider that scum had to bus SC the point is 'when' they decided to do so, etc. I was on VLA-ish but I was around and when the 'shift' came, I could see the point but I didn't want to go for it without more consideration since SC would certainly have died before the end of the game, etc.. Ythill stuck to the 'optimum play' until the lynch, and, personally, I liked the optimum "safer" way better but I could see the point, the information, prevention of mislynch, etc. so I unvoted/was willing to hammer. To me, Ythill and I made 'sense' in our 'defending' of SC's lynch.

The shift in post #29, #30 for Qwints and it being only 13 minutes apart... is kind
of suspicious to me. (copy paste below without quote tags). It is post #666 overall for OGML's vote for SC at 2:17 am (with 665 and 666 being Qwints) and Qwints read the post and decided to go with it within 3 minutes?

---
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:07 am Post subject: 29 Reply with quote
It's simply not worth the risk of a mislynch. Maybe the doc was acting scummy to avoid being a nk target. Maybe he was just being an idiot. Or maybe SC is scum. It's just not worth it to lynch him on D1. If SC is scum and there is a doc in the game, he can counterclaim at LYLO or his being nk'd will out SC as scum.
---------
Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:20 am Post subject: 30 Reply with quote
unvote, vote: StrangerCoug

You sound pretty confident. I agree that SC has acted quite scummy.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Just after 'confirming' vote for Apoth and saying that Apoth had multiple chances to redeem himself but now it was going to be Apoth's lynch.

Qwints didn't elaborate more on it... and in fact, if he thought Apoth was scummy then (as he likes to state/repeat) make a case and try to get them lynched. Instead, within a span of 3 minutes, he went from lynching Apoth to lynching claimed doc with little to no comment. and yet now, he is back to going after Apoth.

You may argue that I (and others) bused SC but in general there was consideration/thought process in it. Elmo and others stated why they dislike the claim and voted, gave reason, etc. and such. Qwints entire 3 minute 'conversion' was "you sound sure".

I have a hard time believing that upon my re-read. Maybe it is just me, but I wouldn't blindly follow OGML (or anyone) without thinking about it myself, considering, etc. and the short conversion is strange like a scum scenting the change in the wind and jumping in at the ground level.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I'm sorry but that makes no sense at all.

I'm tempted to vote for you right now but I want you to explain more your thought process, etc. for the SC-Apoth interactions.

In particular:

SC is at L-1 and claims doc. We all jump off and you, as the real doc, don't counterclaim since it is day 1 and SC will be lynched eventually.

I can believe that. It isn't worth it to counterclaim scum fakeclaiming doc on day 1 since they will be caught 'eventually' and also if you, if real doc, happen to get nightkilled, then SC would be almost certainly axed. So win-win for not counterclaiming on day 1.

But then SC went *STRAIGHT* after Apoth (like a bulldog) and stated at various times "why isn't apoth dead yet" type statements and such... which you appeared to agree with as you also 'pushed' (or asked) about Apoth's impeding lynch.

The thing is, you, as 'real doc' should know that SC is lying and thus scum and that even if SC is the 'worst scum' in the entire universe, would he 100% bus his scumpartner to that extent? This information should have made you consider or at least more wary of following SC and lynching Apoth but you were at the very least totally complicit in it which makes me ponder quite a bit when now it seems like you are saying that you switched to voting SC as soon as you could because you knew he was lying....

...

So you still think Apoth is scum?

Corv

[Corvuus]

well, i would like an answer so.

Vote Qwints

I'm alright with lynching another claimed doc in this game since we already did SC.

So please elaborate more than just who you protected, etc.

Cor

[Corvuus]

That sounds nice but factually you are asking me to believe the following:

1. Assume 3 scum in town.

2. Assume that SC is scum fakeclaiming and that SC is bussing his partner (apoth) in order to verify himself.

Let's assume that this succeeded and is 'true'. Apoth dies and flips up scum.

Only 2 scum remaining.

It is 100% IMPOSSIBLE for SC to survive the entire game. Even if he is lynched at the 'final moment' at lylo or heck even by you (Qwints) counterclaiming him at lylo, he *will* be lynched.

Only 1 scum remaining.

This 1 scum will have to be able to succeed and kill everyone else off while avoiding suspicion, busing his partners (killing Apoth then and SC later when real doc claims or at lylo), etc. etc. and win in a 2vs1 situation.

Not only is this fairly unlikely (or at least, interesting scum if they did choose this), this option would have to be chosen by SC (and scumgroup implicitly) almost IMMEDIATELY after SC's doc claim and Apoth's poor word choice, etc. And then when OGML brought the wagon back to SC, the scum hopped on again immediately figuring that there was no hope and that it may help clear Apoth (who you say is a 'ineffective scum')?

Other than Apoth, who do you think is the other scum? or not enough information?

Corv

[Corvuus]

macavity:

What I said does make sense. Even if there IS no doc in this setup at all, SC was almost guaranteed dead. He was an 'outed' doc on DAY 1 and would have to survive several 'nightkills' all the way until lylo. OGML or someone at some point would have lynched him.

So my statement that SC was basically 100% guaranteed to die before the end of game, I stand by it regardless of doc existence.

You state that Apoth and SC (assuming both scum) could not have possibly known if there was a doc. I agree. SC fake claimed doc, and no one countered (assuming no doc perhaps) or the 'real doc' (assuming Qwints is telling the truth) decided not to cc on day 1 fake claim. I can see both cases as being 'possible' but to make the logical leap for Apoth being scum would need to explain:

Apoth-scum saying that SC-scum is not doc but rather town fakeclaiming. does that make sense?

Apoth-scum saying that SC was scum all the way up until the doc claim, buying the doc claim, not buying the doc claim, and then his buddies decided he was useless and thus tried to get rid of him as opposed to the RB, etc.

For Apoth's 'role-fishing', to even discuss this you have to first tell me directly if you think Apoth is scum and Qwints is doc.

This also doesn't explain why Qwints, immediately upon SC's "self vote lynch" says "props to OGML and Apoth contribute more, etc." implying that he viewed SC's lynch flip of scum showing that Apoth was less likely scum and yet now he is jumping back to it etc. as Apoth being SC's scumbuddy and he didn't care which one was lynched since he thought both were scum.

There are just several parts that don't seem consistent to me and I see nothing wrong with my logic.... but rather the logic of a 'doc' knowing someone is fake claiming but doing what Qwints did and the logic of SC bussing his partner (and this somehow being obvious to Qwints that SC would attempt to verify himself by lynching a buddy) without any other consideration or anything...

if anything, the weirdest statement that you guys make is that SC lynching Apoth (and apoth flipping scum) would somehow confirm SC (or that SC would think this) when quite to the contrary, Apoth's flip would not have confirmed SC *AT ALL*.

SC with a day 1 doc claim, killing a scumpartner and then 'surviving' lylo is sheer impossible. I would have killed him since scum would not let a 'confirmed townie live' (which is what you seem to think it would make SC) and they wouldn't let a doc live (even if a RB argument was brought up) and combine that with SC's playstyle, etc. I don't buy it. SC could NOT have survived and even if SC gave up both of his scumbuddies, he would NOT survive lylo. It simply isn't believable.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I guess I just have to ask, do you think Qwints would survive all the way to lylo and endgame?
----

Perhaps i am assuming too much in how scum 'would/could/should' think but basically there are 2 possible theories.

1. scum are minmax type. SC was RB so they wanted to maximize the chance for him to survive and would give up a scumbuddy (who may be useless) and heck they would even give up a 'night kill' in the long shot hoping of confirming SC as doc. Apoth is scum in this theory.

2. scum are 'cut the loss' or 'play only for sure things' (like getting nightkills etc.) and not for longshots. i.e. scum giving up a scumbuddy *and* a free night with no kills on the high risk, medium reward gain of letting SC live would simply not be done. Apoth is not scum in this theory.

-----

You say this depends on whether SC believed it but frankly, SC could not have survived until lylo. In this game, SC claims doc and then spouts nonsense, uselessness etc. and if anything SC would have continued to act scummy etc. like he was and continued to do (and perhaps even more so if he thought he was a 'confirmed' player).

SC didn't even read Apoth's account or anything very closely, he just said "die" for all the wrong reasons and then later claimed it was 'different'. You can't tell me that SC, within this period of time of thrashing about, was crafting this kind of situation and thinking he could live until lylo. If anything, SC fake claiming doc was simply to try to out a real doc and then die. At least then he could provide 'some' usefulness to his team. If SC had any longterm goal in mind, then why wouldn't he improve his play, etc. etc. etc. Heck, SC would have to tell us who he protected and why, and I think he would either screw it up or something anyhow.

Even then, team scum don't know if there is a doc or not and Apoth's reaction (which got him wagoned) was shortly after SC's claim and nothing else had been said or done. So team scum (who you say is Apoth) have just had the 'earthshattering' moment of SC fakeclaiming doc (and doing a very bad job since no breadcrumb, very lazy claim, etc.) and yet almost without skipping a beat, they think Apoth's "sc could be town fakeclaiming" means Apoth is a worthless scumbuddy and that they should trade the two.

Not only are you asking me to believe the above (or some variation thereof), you are asking me to believe that Qwints as doc did all of his actions with two conflicting views within his own mind. i.e. Qwints knows SC is scum (via fake claim) but Qwints "also" thought Apoth was scum independently of SC and so interpreted SC's rush on Qwints as being a scum bus and he was content to let that happen, instead SC got lynched as scum and Apoth is still remaining buddy and Qwints is trying to finish Apoth now. Versus, Qwints doesn't know Apoth's alignment but knows SC is scum via fake claim and Qwints 'flip-flops' on Apoth being scum or not (as evidenced by his "do better now Apoth", "i'm ok with Apoth's lynch", SC-Apoth interaction, etc.).

....

I just realized that Qwints never mentioned if he did a breadcrumb or anything like that.

Qwints:

Did you breadcrumb at all this game or have any other reason or thing you could add that would make it more 'believable'.

If you could do that, then I would be more content to let you live since, like in SC's case, I don't believe you could survive until endgame.

I'll leave it at that for now.

Corv

[Corvuus]

hmmm.

i'll think about it.

I looked through Atlas (who you replaced) and I don't see any breadcrumbs.

I think everyone who hasn't checked in or said something about the claim needs to.

...

I guess I can sort of see 'cautious doc' type, but I don't understand exactly your point of view of Apoth. Could you elaborate on that in light of your claim?

Corv

[Corvuus]

good point jazz. I didn't see it like that.

Llama: you think I am scum somehow with ML?
--
personally, I was a bit thrown off this game with Ythill/Primate, SC and such and I didn't have any real big suspicions and didn't see much on Qwints, I then posted asking for a claim and asking about the quick 'vote switch' and then Qwints claimed doc which I now wish I had played differently.

i.e. just ask Qwints to claim, and leave out my 'quick to switch' vote blerb.
Ironically, Qwints was unvoted to L-2 and then decided to claim (and I assume he had read that he was at L-2 since he read my post asking for his claim) and while the reason can be innocent, the 'feeling' of it just struck me as weird that he would not claim even at L-1, and then 'suddenly' when I ask why he changed his mind within 3 minutes-ish for voting SC, he claims doc.

I personally don't consider it crazy-WIFOM for scum to fakeclaim the same thing twice. That is why I wish I had asked for the claim first and suspicion second since if he is scum, he may have fakeclaimed doc simply because I asked why the quickvote change which might be suspicious enough unless Qwints is (or claims) doc.

but bleh. I still want to hear more.

Cor

[Corvuus]

lol qwints.

ok, i am quite willing to lynch your almost certainly fake 'claimed doc' now since what you wrote is blatantly horrible and I don't understand it at all.

At first, it seems like you are going to make a case against ML (or someone at least) at the top of your post and then you state "if ML is scum, then Corv or Apoth is potential scumbuddy" without saying why we are potential scumbuddy nor why you say "if ML is scum". Ok, that is fine, you probably have your reasons right? /sarcasm.

You then say, "my read is that ML is not scum".

Wait, what?

What was the entire point of saying, Corv and Apoth are potential scumbuddies of ML and then saying that you don't see ML as scum BUT you somehow see Corv or Apoth as being potential scumbuddies. (you say you need to read more to elaborate but what kind of conclusion is this). If you see us as being scum independently, then go for it, but I can't imagine what possible linkage you are doing there since you say later that you haven't read my posts 'that closely'.

--------------------------------------

As for the OMGUS claim, I think that is even more ridiculously hilarious.
Others made a case on you, voted for you, asked you to claim. You said, only when someone not voted for you asked. I asked, you claimed, I said your claim was BS since you didn't explain, elaborate, etc. (which I think is 100% justifiable since your original 'claim' was just who you 'protected' and why you switched vote quickly). No breadcrumb, and even what Jazz thought might have been a breadcrumb, you said you did none, and all of it strikes being 'weird'/odd or out of place. So your OMGUS is apparently simply because I didn't believe your claim 'off the bat' like almost everyone else and I still don't?

If you were a real doc, you (at least in my opinion) would be happy to explain your claim, details, etc. and why would there by OMGUS at all? Does any real doc expect 'everyone' to believe him? Any real doc worth his salt would go after 'real scum' and not a perceived OMGUS of a townie not believing him.

I could go on and on, but in the end, I simply do not believe your claim and actions. I do believe you are scum (and heck, most likely scumbuddies with ML since you are trying to link his 'potential scumflip' with 2 other players). I mean, why so much on ML and his 'potential scumbuddies' and how ML interacted with SC and then you don't talk about Cor-SC interaction or SC-Apoth interaction when it has to be a 3 scum team. So you think Cor-SC-ML or Apoth-SC-ML actually makes sense to you?

Anything else I could read from you is conflicting or doesn't make sense. I do like how your entire 'view' of me is just 2 FoS and a declaration of how I am... despite there being several other obvious things to say about me.

I'm pretty sure i was already voting for you but just in case.

Vote Qwints

.

Die scum.

Corv

[Corvuus]

glad everyone is still alive. i've been sick due to strange weather as well.

At any rate:

Qwints: you ask me what is the difference between SC and you?

My view of SC was that he was scum, he fake-claimed doc, and then I felt that for a DAY 1 doc claim, he will almost certainly die before the end of the game, so it wasn't worth lynching him then. Either he will be NKed (if he was real doc) or he would die when 'real doc flipped' or when he survived for 3-4 nights in a row. Heck, ythill's defense of SC's lynch makes even "more" sense since he was a 'watcher' and could target SC and probably figure it out based on what SC said.

I was against SC's lynch simply because of 'math/optimization'. If it was 'anyone' BUT SC, then I probably would never have agreed to a day 1 doc lynch. But I thought SC was scum, his claim sucked, his points were strange, etc. etc. but even then I wouldn't have made the leap to lynch him without OGML starting it.

It was only after Elmo (and others) pointed out that the situation wasn't "lynch Apoth-scum today and potentially lynch SC-scum later" and that we would get 1. information if we do lynch correctly (i.e. SC scumbuddy) and we would prevent a mislynch).

I didn't see Apoth and SC as possibly being scumbuddies (bussing etc.) and so I could see how SC's lynch (if SC was scum) would not only 'prevent a mislynch', it would give us information "now" and not "later" when town would eventually lynch SC. So I changed my view, posted it, and was willing to hammer SC.

----

As for you, I don't believe your claim like I didn't believe SC's claim. I couldn't careless about the 'mindgame/wifom' of "scum fakeclaiming a role twice" since I seriously think scum are perfectly capable of doing so especially since scum axed 2 watchers and would town have a doc on top of that who didn't counterclaim SC and who didn't breadcrumb at all?

If this was day 1, then I would consider letting you 'live' and hoping you die via NK and such but at this point, I think you are scum.

So tell me this, if we don't lynch you today, do you think you will live through tonight?

or rather, should I put the choice to you this way.

I will either lynch ML or Qwints today.

I believe Elmo, jazz and Apoth are town. Llama i'm so-so on.

[Corvuus]

Qwints:

Could you elaborate any more on the following posts? (#s are based on your posts in isolation).

post #6 contains the apparent doc crumbing-ish word 'innoculate' of the 'eventual doc claim' that (you said you believe) is going to come. Anything you could say or enlighten about this?

what about posts #3, #32, #29, #30 as well in terms of what you were thinking and such.

For example: what was your reasons for thinking Apoth is scum in these posts (in between or during your vote for him?)

Corv

[Corvuus]

hm.

Qwints latest post is quite convincing to me actually.

There are parts where I think it is kind of iffy and such, but it isn't a question of what I think, but whether Qwints would think/do that and his gameplay/style. I don't think I would have done the same, but I can see Qwints doing it now.

I never considered that OGML could possibly be the doc (given MM and my previous game/read of him before) so I didn't see/think of Qwints trying to portray OGML as the doc (possible due to wording and as to why OGML would go after SC so 'quickly' as long as you ignore MM) and then rely on protecting him later that night.

I still don't see why Ythill was targeted unless he somehow breadcrumbed his watcher role. People talked about lynching him due to association (thus Ythill himself saying that he won't be NKed) and yet scum choose him over everyone else, including OGML.

Maybe re-reading SC is the best thing to do, I don't know.

Corv

[Corvuus]

huh.

i thought i unvoted.

unvote

ML: I don't understand your post/point being made.

Qwints and ML just voting for each other since deadline is coming and they are the most likely lynch?

And then the reasoning is... "too lazy, etc." to look for scum/think of why, etc. so just voting the 'easy way'?

I don't think that makes sense even if it wasn't 'unknown' versus 'doc' as the potential deadline lynch.

At any rate, I think you should claim now ML. The deadline is saturday and I can't imagine a 'doc' being lynched at deadline over you.

If you need me to vote for you before you claim, then I'm ok with that too.

Corv

[Corvuus]

sorry, been busy for a bit.

is there any possibility that we can all vote for a deadline extension (a few days to a week?) since it is very important what happens next and I don't know if people will be around or have enough time before current deadline.

If deadline extension isn't possible, then I really hope ML claims (someone else asks him too, or he considers deadline in 2 days) since they are both at 2 votes and I would rather

1. lynch instead of no lynch.
2. not lynch the doc claim.

I can post more reasonings and such later in a bit, but I think we need to figure this out soon.

Corv

[Corvuus]

ML: i didn't say I refuse to state a case against you.

I said I don't have time right now, the deadline is in 2 days, I want to extend, have more time, etc. etc.

but hey, sure, if you read me explicitly saying my position as "i refuse to state a case against you but i'm willing to lynch you" then go ahead. It doesn't bother me, and I'm not the one who is going into a 2 day deadline lynch against a claimed doc.

My post was to try to "help" you in the sense that if you claim now (presumably townie since I assume no more doc claims and having 4 power roles (watcher, tracker for sure, maybe qwints doc, etc.) would be kind of unusual to me but hey, You don't want to claim and apparently no one cares or is interested in getting a deadline extension so 'apathy' may end up killing you. not me.

------------------------

If you want the short condensed version of my position, then i'm not convinced 100% that you are scum, (but I can see points against you) but the other part is that it comes down to a kind of "process of elimination".

I.e. Elmo and Jazz I get good townie feelings from, Qwints I am so-so on but I am hesitant to lynch his doc-claim compared to lynching scummy SC doc claim, and Apothy I am so-so on but leaning more likely town than not due to busing but i do dislike the 'level of activity and contribution'.

So if it is two scum left, then by a kind of +/- scum point system, I have you (ML) as being more likely scum compared to other players/townies.

--------

Either way, deadline is coming, and I asked you to claim now since I have a feeling that it is going to go badly for you.

If you have ample time, then go make a case on someone or ask for deadline extension. I'd rather not make a hasty decision when it feels like people aren't around so much right now but, as I said before, I will not let the day end with a 'no lynch'.

Corv

[Corvuus]

hmm, cross posting.

I haven't re-read llama so i will check that out along with ML.

C

[Corvuus]

ML: I thought I did say that but I didn't have alot of time so maybe it is what I thought but not necessarily what came across in what I wrote.

As for having "ample" time, I *am* busy and not have alot of time to sit and re-read, collect my thoughts etc. until the weekend and the deadline is this weekend. As for me "waiting until the last minute", i was here reading, posting and thinking about Qwints doc claim and such. I took several days of posts here but I find Qwints comments/actions acceptable as a doc. I stated why just a few posts ago.

So we could blame town for low activity and such (we are all guilty) and it is anti-town to lynch without generating information or discussion (which is why I support a deadline extension of just a few days, heck even to monday so we get the weekend) but it is 'more' anti-town to not lynch anyone at all and that is just how it happens i suppose, with deadline lynches just happening and not being 'the best' choice but just 'a' choice. I'd rather we think more about it since it should be lylo tomorrow but mod hasn't made any comments yet.


-------

at any rate, to make it short and 'lay all the cards on the table'.

I have to re-read Llama to understand better what jazz/elmo point out and I don't know if I will be able to do that until tomorrow late. That gives a short time for discussion/reply, etc.

I won't agree to lynch Elmo or Jazz; Qwints I consider acceptable doc-claim for now. The remaining players, I could see lynched today. So if you want to survive deadline lynch, then your best bet is to make a case/wagon one of them.

Corv

[Corvuus]

ok, i just don't have time.

so i don't know if this is how to do it but:

Mod: vote deadline extension

I think just a few days (at most a week) would be very helpful.

If I check in later and the deadline extension isn't possible at all, then I will be voting to lynch.

Corv

[Corvuus]

ok, extension. yay.

----

I have a freshman-BBQ to attend but i'll have time later today for re-read on llama and such.

(Note: when i asked for extension it was because my time would be late sat/sunday to respond and that would be too late for deadline.)

Corv

[Corvuus]

hm.

i just finished re-reading Llama.

I thought he was town-ish from day 1 comments and interactions (the Wall of posts between him and Ythill, i thought both were town just duking it out) and he does make points on ML that I agree with.

I don't quite understand why it seems like the Llama player on day 1 and the one we currently have are completely different now. The posts seem to drop in quality/quantity and I can understand why people think he is less townie now then compared to before and i don't know if alcohol is the only explanation. I'd still consider Llama more town than not though.

My vote and comments on ML will be forthcoming.... rereading Llama closely took more time than I expected considering he only has 59 posts.

Corv
P.S. I thought Atlas was fairly townie as well. PoE still has ML as most likely.

[Corvuus]

as qwints pointed out, I use PoE as Process of Elimination. I don't know if it is in common usage or anything (or if mafiascum.net players think in terms of it) but I think it is useful to describe things that way in certain situations. i.e. We can't all be town, and not all scum will be obvious, so sometimes it comes down to who is 'least' likely to be town/most likely to be scum.

Jazz... did an amazing job and put it far better than I could. One of the things that kind of threw me off on day 1 was that people were either ignoring or siding with SC or Ythill/Primate and there was strange interaction/reaction to me but... to put it simply, I was extremely worried about what people were saying/doing but they "couldn't all be scum" so it left me feeling that i was being paranoid since I was FoSed/voted by several players for the whole Primate 'fake PR', SC lack of care/defense, etc. etc.

At any rate, Jazz's point of view on the chronology of previous events is good and I would be interested in hearing the response.

Elmo: I understand what you mean by scum busing each other, I just think that it is weird for Apoth-scum to make a comment on SC-scum being town but not doc and SC-scum to jump on it like that. At the time of SC's claim, I felt that SC was lying and that Apoth "may" have been the doc but (for some weird obscure reason) thought SC was town and so didn't counterclaim but said SC was not the doc, but town. If Apoth had counterclaimed and explained that is why he said what he said, then I may have believed it and part of me didn't want to focus on Apoth that much because of this possibility. The... 'newbieness', weird defense, no doc claim, and subsequent actions now does make it possible that Apoth is scummy if I 'remove' the wifom/mindgame of SC going after a scumpartner. It could also be why Apoth flip-flopped and behaved kind of erratically on SC's doc claim.

I'll have to think about it more, but I can imagine a SC-Apoth-ML scumgroup.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Hope everything in RL works out for you Apoth.

Mod: i know we already did an extension, but in light of replacement/timing to get replacement, could deadline be pushed back again a few days?

A decision may be made without Apoth/replacement but who knows.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm going to try to re-read ML again in light of his reasoning/mentality but I think my own impression is similar to Jazz's.

I am not the clearest, concise or most articulate, but I didn't (and still don't) see why everyone bought into Primate's PR which at first I thought 'amusing/interesting' and then "anti-town, to the point of it having to be voluntary".

SC's reactions, responses and posts (SC said Primate 'could have evidence, he isn't saying that he doesn't' and his various other responses) made me think SC was scum confused by his scumbuddy (primate/ythill) posting on him. I was considering and pursuing this when Primate replaced out (Ythill was more helpful and townie than primate by a lot) and the fact that if SC and Primate were scumbuddies, then that only leaves 1 or 2 more scum, and more than 1 or 2 people were going after me and saying "that they could understand Primate's posts" (which later on, they couldn't) and that they thought I was scummy for going after a PR which they considered 'confirmed' or 'no reason to doubt'.

ML: You said you could understand Primate's post, kind of supporting/agreeing with SC that i was 'off'. This bothered me but then Apoth, and others did similar or 'worse' so it just confused me even more into a paranoia/extremist mentality.

I have to go back and check the chronology of it and referring to which posts and such but SC's post #38 in isolation has him quoting you (ML) saying you can see a case on SC, MM and 'you' (i don't remember who the 'you' refers to). SC says, 'whats the case on MM?', apparently ignoring the fact that you said you have a case on SC.

This made me think SC (as silly scum) just ignores cases on himself made by his scumbuddies (ML, Primate/Ythill) but he 'leaps' after everything else done by other players. We know that this isn't true with Primate/Ythill now (and I still don't know why SC let Primate say he is scum twice with no defense, reasoning, or anything and inconsistent with his own play this game) but it still leaves several questions for SC-ML.

I can see how you (ML) argue that you didn't ignore or leave SC alone (possible, but you didn't go after him that much) but what about SC leaving you alone or ignoring your comment?

There are other parts which bother me in terms of phrasing and design but I guess it amounts to this:

SC stated he had "reasons to believe" that the PR was real. (post #34, SC) A reason has never been given or appeared as to why it *should* be real and yet SC and ML both believed it, said they could interpret it, etc. I took this as 'buddying' with SC-Ythill/Primate-ML (which is why upon SC's scumflip, several of us said ythill is next) and it could explain why Ythill was nightkilled (assuming no crumb by Ythill, primate may have been crumbing that he was a power role with his "i got my eye on you, surveillance robber, convenience store thing") to simply break up the chain of SC-Ythill-ML. You, ML, also stated you had reasons to believe the PR or that you could interpret it (which threw me for a loop since I got nothing out of it but at least 2 players said they could 'figure him out'. SC saying he could understand and figure him out while Primate had SC as scum just seemed implausibly insane.

Even after, at least to me, I had confirmed that the PR was voluntary and such, SC still had nothing on Primate, and his responses/answers were interesting and strange enough that I bought into the whole 'Ythill-SC-whoever believed Primate's PR without explaining why or being convinced at some point' and you happen to be it ML.

I could go on but I don't know if I am being articulate enough or getting my point across. I simply don't see why you agreed with Primate's PR and him being interpretable and the interaction and stance with SC.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Well, let me try again then ML.

The game starts, and there is random voting. Fairly normal.

Cephrir is 'mindlessly bandwagoning' and you post "I agree with Cephrir mindlessly bandwagon EG! All aboard" (post #60 overall game). SC votes/FoSes Cephrir (and EG, who was being bandwagoned) but leaves you out of it, completely. Your post#75 is the follow-up where you say you don't follow EG being scummy at all, thought Cephrir was suspicious but think that those on his case for doing it are more suspicious and FoS/vote MM and SC. This is the only real time you say something about SC (everything else is in reference to this point) all the way up until you ask SC to claim.


------

Atlas asks in post #51, "are PR's normal in mini's?". SC (post #52) responds, "most likely no". Primate posts his 'pictures' and you do post "that is Crazy awesome" so you do see his "PR" and were there to comment and understand. SC post #83 is SC's first interpretation of Primate's post.

I show up at post #81 and re-read. I express doubt on the PR. So does Cephrir (#86), who also votes SC based on his response. EG, 2 posts later, also quotes 'truth' of saying that the PR is weird. There are various posts in between but SC was picking up votes (which I probably should have caught on to) but Primate begun bothering me more and more when I thought about it. Post#117, I post that I don't think Primate's PR is real or helpful, etc. Sminty post#119 agrees with me and thinks the PR isn't helpful.

Ceph, SC and MM all say that they don't associate PR with the game but they don't think it is scummy, maybe anti-town but they don't know if it is real or not. MM asks if Primate can post.

Primate and I have our post exchange next. SC votes me for not seeing Primate's vote (which was on SC) and SC and ML both post 130/131 that they are ok with Primate's post/PR. and SC agrees with you in 132 that he can understand the PR and pictures. You both are lying as you both can't post or respond as to what Primate is trying to say.

post 169 is your comments on the PR and followed by your post #174, it seems like you were getting ready to bandwagon him based on his answer. I had read his response, considered him likely to be town, voluntary PR and that he had SC as scum from earlier voting and I unvoted, so did Ceph, and then your post 174 is just frustrated for 'no real reason'. Things proceed and then post #183 by me.

On Primate and SC. SC's response is quite horrible in #186, and #189. i suck at quoting, and clarity, but SC's responses just make me more sure that at least SC is scum and I can leave Primate to worry about later.

The next part confused me and that is when both Cephrir and ML posted against me and ignored SC. SC's responses were horrible (primate may have evidence i am scum, etc. etc.) yet you both ignored that and went after me. Even if I am craplogic/unclear, etc. SC's response was quite telling. This threw me off since I didn't expect that kind of response from Cephrir (who i had viewed as town at that point) so I kind of reconsidered things. Post #190-191. When OGML said scumteam is
SC-Cephrir-ML-Primate I assumed his reasoning was from this kind of interaction and such but I don't remember OGML ever saying why.

Time passes on (yay for me being extremist) and players get prodded/replaced. We have our 'alteration' in post #217, 218 and then followed by SC in post #219.

I posted that I didn't like you posting to avoid a prod since you could supply more info. (in particular you, since I wanted more reads from you). You respond in 218 that you have suspicions on me, SC and MM and nothing much has changed.
This strikes me as scummy since you only see SC suspicious from "early game" (your first vote for SC) but you don't find his response to me horrible or bad at all? I was convinced SC was scum by that point but I couldn't see why town (since not everyone can be scum) couldn't see his crap answers, etc.

219 is SC ignoring the suspicion on himself (remark by ML) and asking about MM.

The rest of the posts follow, post 226 you get sort of fed up with me and I'm at a loss for what to do since town (or players i view as town) think I'm an extremist or scum trying to rile people up, etc. And I don't see how I can move forward towards a SC lynch without getting lynched instead. I didn't see why people ignored SC's scummy response and you said you were suspicious of him but also ignored it and made no comment or real progress which is why I went after you to restate your positions, say more, etc. It could be you just didn't have time (which you claimed) or you could be actively ignoring SC despite your words to the contrary.

My post#252 kind of sums up my feelings. I was working on SC but without Primate there or anything, everyone is just ignoring SC. I also felt ML was strange but I got called out on my "FoS" by Cephrir and i felt that the tide was turning against me so I had better back off, and be extremist (to be consistent) and see what happens with replaced players.

llama replaces in, and I'm pretty happy about that. So does Elmo.

Llama post #275 agreeing with me on SC is good. even if my 'attack/case' is screwed up, SC failed his defense. I realize how I could have done it better, so I try to regather my thoughts when Ythill replaces in. Ythill gives me pause since I view Ythill as town and I'm not too sure how to proceed on SC and Ythill votes Atlas (which threw me off since I thought he would address SC *more* due to his response/interaction with Primate). I didn't like ML, how you continued to ignore SC and still go after MM.

You (ML) in post #289 ask me about how i messed up. I was still thinking then.

Then the replacements (ythill, Elmo), others and ML go after Apoth. I was hoping to go after SC.

I get confused a lot, and people have written me off as townie/extremist/stupid but in the end, the wagon shifts back to SC as Elmo, Llama, Cephrir etc. find his responses 'strange/scummy'. Post#345 is you asking SC for a claim at L-1 and saying he isn't really town looking after ignoring him the whole time before.
Ythill had also ignored him (probably due to linking primate) but with SC's actions, Ythill responds with "huh, he is distancing himself from me, maybe I should look at the case on SC more".

SC claims doc in 348.

Ythill and Atlas post in #353 and 354 now convinces me that Atlas/Qwints is the doc. Ythill says "lets do this before some fool counterclaims". Atlas says "i don't believe the claim because of what Ythill said". Ythill hadn't said anything about the claim itself, just that 'fool doc' shouldn't counterclaim so I take this as Atlas' response showing that he is the doc.

The whole 'slip' by Apothecary happens, wagon shifts, OGML shows up, SC gets lynched. I wish Atlas had posted less on Ythill and more on SC or something else so I could believe Qwints more, but that is where it has to stand.

---------------

Maybe I didn't do a good job of saying it or proving it, but basically, I see you as scum. I posted everything (my viewpoint) since somehow I am labeled as your scumbuddy (which doesn't even make sense to me) for what I think i am doing in this game. You did ignore SC and did try to shift attention elsewhere, and I did ask you (in that don't post to avoid prod) to update your case on SC but nothing was changed. I didn't understand why 'everyone else' was ignoring SC's posts/scumminess at that moment in time but the replacements did read it or figure it out eventually, SC was lynched and you are his buddy.

Corv
P.S.

unvote, vote ML

.

[Corvuus]

fine. I don't wish to spend more time on this and that is apparently all you are ever going to say despite anything i could clarify or add to it.

If you can deem it nice enough to respond to one thing or clarify your own thoughts and intentions regarding it, then when I posted about you 'posting to avoid a prod' and you said you had nothing further on SC, did you read his comments or defense towards me and Primate? What did you think about it, what was going through your head, etc?

If you still don't see it or want to respond, then please start scumhunting now otherwise I see you being lynched anyways.

Corv

[Corvuus]

I don't find that an acceptable answer.

I never said my arguments (or my original reason for suspecting him due to Primate) were right. I even mentioned earlier how i was 'right' for all the wrong reasons.

The point is this:

Hypothetical: Someone random voting stage votes for a person who happens to be scum. Completely random vote for all the wrong reasons.

The scummy person 'freaks' out and ends up 'slipping' and saying scummy things.

Georgetown: I vote SC for 'wrong reasons' (buddying/defending Primate when Primate was attacking him, etc.), SC responds and says things like:

"I'm not saying he doesn't have evidence that I'm scum"
"Primate has a reason for it, I'm sure"
and then flipflopping on it with more nonsense.

The reason why I was ok with Cephrir's lynch (and yours) is because instead of say actually reading SC's response and seeing how nonsensical and crazy this was, both of you ignored SC and made comments on me being 'extremist'.

It actually is worse for you than Ceph since you state that SC was one of your "top 3 suspects" then how come you didn't read his reactions and see how weird/nonsensical they were, make any comment on it, or do anything with it at all? You really had nothing to say or add from your post #75 (in response to my 'don't post to avoid prod') all the way until you ask SC to claim at L-1?

I could go on and on and list how you weren't really scumhunting and such, how SC did drop out of your suspicion (pointed out by Jazz) but you would probably say 'null-tells', 'i don't see it that way', etc. so I guess it is going to be that we 'agree to disagree' and you aren't really going to do much to try to show that you are town.

-----

I think your scummy, you think you aren't; but you don't have anything else to say or help your case? If a sign of what happened to Cephrir is anything, then I think you should worry more and post more.

As for the "please don't condescend to me" comment. It doesn't help you at all since my post was in response to your "one line post" of "i don't see a case". There is a case, the fact that you got mentioned by OGML, Jazz and others means *there is a case* and you waving it off with a extremely "condescending attitude" of "i don't see a case, null tells to me" doesn't change anything but paves the way for your lynch.

Corv

[Corvuus]

oh i messed up the vote tag.

vote ML

I don't find my phrasing offensive, and I am sorry if it comes across that way to you.

In the end, it still all comes down to PoE (process of elimination).

I believe Qwints is doc. Jazz, Elmo are town to me, Llama so-so. So that leaves ML and Apoth.

Apoth may be scum, who knows. But compared to everyone else here right now the "circumstantial evidence/null-tells" that you 'scoff' at are going to get you lynched.

Corv
P.S. as for you saying you were scumhunting early day 1, I say 'no'.

[Corvuus]

i'm ok with massclaiming but i don't see what added benefit there is really.

if it was a doc cc then maybe, but an existence of another town power role?

hmm..

actually, I take it back. I favor massclaiming.

C

[Corvuus]

is that supporting massclaim or just your ability to post dancing smilies?

[Corvuus]

sorry, got distracted with other games and things.

For my reasoning on massclaiming, it is simple.

What do we gain versus what do we lose?

If it outs town roles then it is 'lose' but at this point, I simply think all the town power roles are already out there.
We've already got a doc, a watcher and a tracker. It isn't that likely that there is another power role and if there 'is' then that is a useful point of discussion simply because a 4th power role existing doesn't really fit the setup and (if they breadcrumbed or something) could give us cause to rexamine qwints again. If there really are no more town power roles, then everyone is simply going to claim 'townie'.

We don't out anything (thus don't 'lose' anything) but we may gain something just depending on what happens. Or it could be a complete waste of time. I just don't see how it could go badly for town at this point.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jazz: My 'suspicion' of Llama is just over his 'drunken' post that seem like another person. I don't know why he has me as scum with ML or why he said he is naive if somehow I am not scum with ML. So I would like a 'non-drunken' response to that. I also don't get Llama's recent post about SC's goon flip when SC was RB, etc. and the setup speculation... bleh.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It doesn't seem like we are going to get any further extension for Apoth replacement so we need more to talk about.

ML: If you had to pick one player that you felt was definitely town, who would it be?

C

[Corvuus]

Hi Illumina,

Thanks for replacing in so late.

I don't know if mod will grant it (again) but I favor a deadline extension.

----------------------------------------

As for Qwints' doc claim:

There are parts I don't like but the part that has me leaning on Qwints doc claim being real is from Atlas-town reads and from Ythill-Atlas comment on SC's doc claim. SC fake claims doc. Ythill says "no fool doctor counterclaim him", and Atlas agrees with Ythill in a phrasing that makes me think it is possible (or it could be scum glad that a real doc won't cc his buddy... hm) that Atlas (assuming town and doc) would choose not to counterclaim. Atlas then leaves SC alone (and there is interaction between Atlas-Ythill) and I can't tell what Atlas is doing or thinking about SC and then he gets replaced by Qwints.

The whole problem I've had (or at least I tried to beat Qwints on the head with for a response) is that Qwints replaces in, gets his role (assume doc for now) and then he immediately posts #2 and #4 (from his posts in isolation) that show that if he is doc, he isn't going to cc right then but 'knows' SC is scum, and that from his 'quick reread' he is comfortable with going after Apoth as a scum being bussed by SC. Post#6 would have helped Qwints out (due to the word inoculate against doc claim) but he stated that he never breadcrumbed or anything. ... hmm.
----------------------------

.... ok, Qwints: I don't like your most recent post #81. Maybe it is just your grammar or confusion in wording, but almost every sentence you said is wrong or weird. To highlight a few.

- SC's lynch is not to your credit, if anyone it is to OGML. If you had not switched your vote over, SC still could/would have been lynched.

- It isn't your vote for SC that made you look obv scum. It was the quickness of the vote flop to what you just said a scant 2 minutes before.

- "I don't like Illumina characterizing my doc claim as silly....". This reads really scummy since it sounds like you aren't doc but were being lynched so you claimed doc. Wouldn't it be, "i am doc role so I have to claim when put to L-1" or something like that?

- Given the above, and now asking for a massclaim and wording "a doctor should have counterclaimed by now". Seriously, if you are doc, then THERE SHOULD BE NO OTHER DOC. Unless you somehow suspect that scum are going to counterclaim you? How does massclaiming "help" you or your position? I'm against massclaiming now simply because it seems like you aren't a doc, want to massclaim to rolehunt, etc. etc.

Unvote, vote Qwints

. Thats L-1 with deadline coming. I'm not entirely happy with ML but I find your latest post (on top of me re-reading your earlier ones) as just not being right.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

well, it seems like you don't wish to read or see WHY I said that I don't like your latest post and such. I'm ok with anything you say or do (regarding abrasiveness) and my vote stays.

At the very least, your wording sucks. You say "a massclaim....blah blah. a doctor would have claimed by now". So you are telling me that your phrasing and wording is based on scum trying to counterclaim you (why?) and then you defeating their counterclaim because your doc claim is so much better and your wording is in preparation for a scum counterclaiming you as doc? (why?)

My original view of massclaiming was that it was pointless or 'couldn't' hurt. On a re-read, I think there may be another role out there, and that you are lying. If you are so confident that you are a town power role claim, then why the 'i got SC lynched, I did this, I did that, etc. to try to verify yourself beyond your doc claim and with obvious lies/misrepresentation. And a massclaim has a chance of 'not' verifying you at all simply because everyone can just 'claim townie' and that is 'null' not proof of you.

You either exist, or you don't. Your previous post is crap and your follow up is even more so and I just have to ask, did you re-read (or read at all) when you crafted your response because it is full of fail.

If you really wish to attack my response or view as being "opportunistic", I will just say this. I read Illumina's post, thought about it, started re-reading you (Qwints) again and Atlas after the SC fake-doc claim, I was going through it and listing things down and then I came upon your crap latest post. So I started off my post and my re-read thinking you were town/doc but at the end, my reasoning for believing Atlas wasn't as strong as I would want it to be since Atlas-scum could have responded that way to Ythill and subsequent key points chronologically seem out of place and the feeling behind it is just 'bleh'.

Heck, your latest post's P.S. of "I really think that lynching me today seriously harms the town's chances" is grammatically a scum-tell. Lynching a doc is *always* bad for town. How does us lynching you tomorrow make things better or harms town's chances less?

It doesn't.

Then why the "but I really think that lynching me today seriously harms the town's chances". Well, duh, because you aren't doc but you are scum.

You had me convinced before Qwints but this latest parts is simply not possible or likely for you as doc to say and phrase. So go ahead and try to rephrase or re-clarify but as it stands, all your grammar and wording is currently just admissions of guilt.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Your stated reason is, "if scum counterclaim, then they die tomorrow, etc. etc.".

Why would scum counterclaim you "now" and not anytime earlier in this day if they were going to counterclaim you? Is there ANY reason to assume that scum would trade a doc day mislynch for a subsequent auto scum lynch the following day especially since we are not in lylo and they can simply NK the doc without having to say or do ANYTHING.

There is no reason to expect a counterclaim from scum.

There are various other possibilities but the most likely is that you do think there is a doc in town, and that in a massclaim if he reveals himself, he will cc you, and you are going to argue that he is scum counterclaiming you now (as to why, who knows). If there is no counterclaim, then nothing happens. and (again your wording and phrasing is strange), a counterclaim does not mean that we either 'trade doc for scum or prove you are doc'. How does a counterclaim prove that you are doc? ???

If anything a counterclaim or massclaim now is not worth it and not a good idea simply because it can out a power role for no real added benefit and I see no reason for why scum would want to counterclaim you.

You yourself, in one of your previous posts, talked about scum trading their death for power roles and I don't see how this is consistent with your view now, nor does it make sense.

So feel free to post and clarify more exactly what you mean/meant.

Corv

[Corvuus]

i would say more and such, but qwints was at L-1 so you just lynched him.

Your claim confuses me and your explanation for your claim and why you are doing this... confuses me even more.

I guess I'll just hope that you do die so I won't have to think of what your post really means.

Corv

[Corvuus]

so if i understand your claim correctly. Neutral survivor is someone who wins if he is alive at the end and town/scum fulfill their win condition. So you don't really care which side wins, just as long as you don't die you will satisfy your win condition.

So what was the point of saying Qwints (or whoever doc) got 2 successful protects? Just to hint that there was another faction or a SK (even though no 2nd kill or mod flavor to the contrary) and then, assuming you don't know Qwints-role, how does lynching him 'improve' your chances for winning since it shouldn't have been lylo.

I mean, i don't understand why your play seems nowhere near a 'better/optimal' play where you don't buddy or link with anyone but just coast through and try to not be lynched. Watchers and trackers wouldn't affect you since you have no night action, so where does your role fit in?

Well, either way, you are definitely 'anti-town' despite being neutral. I'll guess we'll see what happens to you when Qwints flips.

Corv

[Corvuus]

ok, i think it is time for a massclaim.

I want to hear more from you Llama since if you truly are neutral survivor, then your vote does say which side gets lynched in lylo. Since you are playing your win condition, you are going to try to kill town?

Corv

[Corvuus]

I don't understand why a neutral survivor would do this and whether I believe you but... I see no reason for you to lie and pursue this course.

According to you, there is 2 scum, 1 SK, you are a neutral survivor and then there is 1 town aligned player left.

I'm that last town aligned player.

So I believe that makes ML-Illumina scum, Elmo the SK, you the neutral survivor, and I am the townie.

---------------------------------------

So let's say we lynch you just for what you did and so we don't let you 'win'.

ML-Illumina scum, Elmo SK, me townie; if both target me, then scum team wins; if SK targets scum and scum kill me, then mutual draw?, if scum kill SK, SK kills me, scum team wins; If scum kills SK, SK kills scum, then scum still win 1-1 endgame.

So basically, scum will win pretty much 'no matter what' and we make *you* lose as long as we lynch you.

The only way for town (me) to win would be to lynch a scum, and the scum and the SK target each other leaving me (and you Llama) as the survivors.

Your blatant "no lynch" vote tells me that you couldn't careless so I in turn, couldn't careless either.

Major HoS LlamaFluff that will turn into a vote if I don't get a response

.

I have no chance of winning without you, so I see no reason to let you survive and win. If the SK wants to win, and you want to have a chance at winning Llama, then we *have* to lynch scum and then it is up in the air since 'each group' would have a decent shot at winning based on who kills who.

The SK could wifom (or BP) and win in the end if we kill scum but will not if we kill either myself or Llama. That means 3 votes (me, Llama, SK) on left scum will give all 3 of us a chance at winning and a 'not mafia win'.

If I don't get a response from you LF or the 'SK' then I am going to try to lynch you LF.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

so....

I'm telling you that I'm basically willing to vote with you (llama) and with Illumina and lynch someone that isn't us.

Otherwise I will vote to lynch you. It is as simple as that.

If it turns out that you are wrong about the setup and there are more townies (less mafia) than you believe, then your best bet is to deal with me.

So you can continue to wait for a counteroffer from scum and be disappointed or you can vote something other than 'no lynch'. Even if you do get a 'no lynch', you are by no means guaranteed a victory/win/survival since the SK can still target scum and things will still be prolonged until tomorrow.

Corv

[Corvuus]

so what are you claiming than ML?

or do you have something else to offer?

C

[Corvuus]

Llama, assuming it is ML-ELmo and they do take your 'no lynch' offer, then there IS a night phase (since scum don't out number the rest) and then they can NK you just for kicks and THEN they win.

At the very least, the only way you 'autowin' is if someone other than you is lynched, not 'no lynch'.

C

[Corvuus]

I'll wait to hear a response from Elmo/ML but otherwise I will make my offer again and I will claim.

C

[Corvuus]

illumina and I claimed town, LF claimed neutral survivor.

so go ahead and claim or we can wait for what elmo wants to say.

in the end, it seems like this will be a 'hat' game.

C

[Corvuus]

elmo?

[Corvuus]

LF:

My offer stands.

Elmo and ML are discussing your lynch. Either they believe you are the SK or whatever. Either way, I don't think they are offering you anything but trying to lynch you.

I am offering you a hat game claim. You, me, Illumina vote and kill Elmo-ML (let's do ML first) as the scum team. The fact that they are even asking each other things in post is enough for me to accept them as team scum now.

I claim SK. Whether I am or not, it is up to scum decide. At this point the SK could be me, Illumina, or heck even you LF hiding behind a neutral survivor claim. Either way, it looks like you are either today's lynch LF or you trust me and we see who scum decide it is more important to kill.

That is the best I can offer you.

If you think I am lying and I'm really scum, at the very least, i am still offering to not lynch you today as long as you vote to lynch ML and if I am scum (with illumina as my ally?), then i will have won and so will you as you would satisfy your win condition.

Either way, I think your best option is to vote ML.

Vote ML

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

ML:

I could be lying about my claims since I claimed twice, or I could not be. That's what makes hat games fun!

Either way, the *only* way for town or SK to win is to lynch you instead of LF/Corv.

I also find it interesting that the possibility of you being mafia/scum and lying through your teeth is left out, but oh well. I won't be killing LF or letting LF get lynched today.

So in the end, it all comes down to Illumina/Elmo. Why don't you make your case/plea to them. I've already made up my mind that this is my optimum play and also for LF.

If you think LF and I are scum together, then make a case/discussion if you like. Personally, I only want Illumina to follow through now and see the scum case on ML and the buddying between ML-Elmo.

Whether Illumina is a anti-town or town, Illumina's best shot at winning is also going to be with your lynch.

So I think you need to become alot more persuasive.

Corv

[Corvuus]

I claim what I claim.

I mean, seriously, at this point, there are only so many scenarios possible and I think you should be trying to argue/convince Illumina at this point.

If you think I am scum, and Illumina is my buddy, and LF is neutral survivor then the game is already over. I'm not mafia scum tho, and Illumina doesn't have anything to do with me except we play a solo hand.

If you think Illumina and LF is scum, and I'm crazy extremist town/SK then likewise, the game is pretty much over.

Illumina can check in and we can find out how this will all play out.

Or there is the far more reasonable assumption that ML is scum, Elmo is the buddy, and this is the best play for LF, me and presumably Illumina as well. If Illumina is town or anti-town, then she will vote ML with us.

If she is mafia-scum (allied with whoever) then maybe things will play out differently.

Either way, I'm not changing my mind/vote at this point. So again, your best bet is to make a convincing argument to Illumina. I've already made mine, you should make yours.

Corv

[Corvuus]

LF is playing his optimal play. I believe him.

I am playing my optimal play.

Either I am lying or I am telling the truth. Either way, it is my best play because it results in the best possible overall outcome.

If I am telling the truth, then there is 2 scum left (Elmo-ML) and lynching me is autoloss for town. We lynch ML, and scum decide whether they want to NK me or not, it is up to them. Either way, it satisfies my goals and it is sufficient wifom/mindgame for other reasons.

If I am lying, then there maybe 1 or 2 scum left. I say 2 (Elmo-ML) and lynching me may or may not be auto-loss for town depending on whether there is a SK or not. Either way, we lynch ML (scum) and if the SK is someone else, they have a reason to vote with me since I will draw the NK, if I am the SK, then I'll have some semblance of protection due to hat game and possible nk resistance.


Either way, my best option is to get scum lynched since not lynching scum (with 2 scum) left equals autoloss regardless of whether I am SK or townie and why I was annoyed with LF and attempt to make a deal with him.

If you think I am scum (with whoever buddy?) then by all means, do what you like.

If you think I am town or SK, then the best move is still to lynch scum, which we think is ML at least, and most probable Elmo as well. I claim to get votes to get them lynched.

And that is basically it. I'm playing to win.

C

[Corvuus]

Elmo: are you asking me? I assumed you were talking to Illumina and I've already stated what I want to say.

evidence of NKs show that there "shouldn't" be a SK, but then again, I am claiming to be one so either that trumps all, or you think there is no SK (or perhaps, you are the SK since in your previous post Elmo, you ask/wait for someone to say you are a SK and you are mad at me for claiming first?) so what else is there to talk about?

I do find it interesting that both ML and Elmo are parroting the same ideas/words and such. I.e. you say I am lying about being a SK... but that I should be lynched and that LF and I are scumbuddies.

So apparently it is a mindgame, but if LF and I were scumbuddies, don't you think we would talk about this during our 'nightly chat'? Or you are saying that everything we just said and did was 'staged' and we are both scum who are both fakeclaiming? why? reasons? discussion? lynched/hammered a doc, why? reasons? discussion?

I have my reasons, LF has his. Ironically, they are anti-mafiascum reasons and it is all based on my 'gut intuition' bet that Illumina is town.

C

[Corvuus]

Elmo:

If this is all true, then why not vote and lynch ML right now?

I.e. If you are convinced that I am lying townie, LF and ML are the scumpair, then what else is there to talk about or do? If I die tonight, then what I say about you doesn't matter. If you die tonight, then what I say about you doesn't matter. Either way, I'm offering 2 votes to lynch ML with 3 needed and, assuming we go back to read the 'likely scumpairs', if ML isn't scum, then Illumina can't be scum since the game may already be over, etc. etc. and if you are convinced that I am town despite everything, then the only possible scumpair combinations (ignoring me and yourself for the moment) would show ML as quite likely scum and therefore lynchable regardless of whether you think ML-Illumina or ML-LF.

We lynch scum today, someone gets NKed (I hope it is me!!!) and then the remnants discuss it out.

If for some crazy weird reason of NK resistance or whatever and I don't die tonight, then yeah, I won't quicklynch you Elmo due to ML and we can talk about anything and everything. As it is, whether lying townie or SK insanity, my only chance of winning is lynching scum.

I think ML is scum and I'm willing to do anything to do that. It is as simple as that.

As for LF being scum, I don't know LF at all, but I don't consider it highly likely based on my understanding. If I am wrong at the end, I will bow to LF's fakeclaiming awesomeness but until that point (or you can bring something out on LF) I don't see myself agreeing to a LF lynch today.

Try me tomorrow?

Maybe scum will ignore a SK claim and NK LF instead and save us all the wifom/mindgame.

C

[Corvuus]

Illumina:

for Qwints successfully blocked a kill every night, are you basing that on what Qwints himself said or on what LF said?

If you doubt that, and think there is no SK, then your case on LF isn't that he is SK but that he is mafia?

If so, then who is his buddy? If it was Elmo, the game may already be over if Elmo hammers ML. If it is you, then the game also may be over if you hammer ML.

If you think LF is scum, then his scumbuddy has to be ML, in which case, what is the point of this discussion in determining which?

I guess that is my confusion regarding both Elmo and Illumina. You say LF is scum, but the only possibility (if we take you both out of it, and you both say I am town despite everything, either way I have nothing with LF) is that ML is his scumbuddy, yet you won't vote.

What is the reason?

C

[Corvuus]

Elmo, you are confused.

I never said you were SK. I said you were scum by process of elimination, assuming LF is neutral, Illumina can't be scum (at least paired with you Elmo, since then game would be over). You said yourself that you thought people would say you were SK. ironic isn't it?

I have also said that I won't quicklynch you. So either you don't believe me or you think lynching LF is better than ML.

Either way, I'm sticking with lynching ML today. If you want to do LF, then you need to make your case.

I do find it interesting that you have ML-LF as scum, Illumina as town, me as 'liar' town, speculate on night actions (why Illumina for the NK?) and yet you are still waiting. What do you want to happen??

C

[Corvuus]

The mafia pairs that work are:
Corvuus - LLamaFluff
Corvuus - MacavityLock
Elmo - MacavityLock
Illumina - MacavityLock
LLamaFluff - MacavityLock

So why aren't we lynching ML yet?

Corv

[Corvuus]

me talking won't help or change anything.

You (illumina, Elmo) talking will.

You can call me stupid (i'm fine with that) but in the end ML is at 2 votes with 3 to lynch.

You all say I am town, and that I should talk and talk with Illumina but quite frankly, what is there for me to say when it is really what YOU guys should be talking and saying.

Whether you like it or not, if you think I am town and ML is either scum/town (but not neutral since you don't believe his claim?) then I've already voted ML to L-1 with him and PROVEN that certain possibilities of scumbuddies, etc. don't work and others do work.

In the cases where they do work, ML is scum. If ML is NOT scum, and scum is pretty much anyone except me and LF together then the game would have been over already right? but it isn't. You could say SK, but you don't believe there is one. You also believe I am town, so LF and I aren't in this 'together' so ML not being dead yet means that ML *is* scum.

The fact is, I actually trust Illumina and Elmo LESS now than before since your 'hesitation', waiting/arguments don't make sense.

Elmo: I can understand you waiting since you think I may quickhammer you (if i live) but I don't understand your position otherwise.

Illumina: I don't understand your position and I actually trust Elmo MORE than you now since your position and actions only make sense if you are scumbuddies with ML.

I could go on but it all amounts to this:

If you all think ML is scum, and you think there is no SK, then WHY ISN'T there a hammer? What else is there to discuss? Scum get killed, someone gets NKed, a new day and a new analysis. If LF is scum, then whoever is survivors of tomorrow will get to discuss and figure it out. Either way at this point, ML can and MUST not survive. I will not be changing my vote.

Elmo: Your reasoning about waiting to play out tomorrow because you are 'afraid of me' does not make sense. You don't know i will be alive tomorrow (unless you are scum and have already planned! wee!) and I've already told you that i won't quicklynch, etc. etc. There is nothing left that I can say or guarantee you.

Unless you are going to convince me that ML is not scum or that somehow LF is scummier than ML, there is NOTHING left for me to say or to talk to any of you (illumina, elmo, etc.).

If you don't want ML to be today's lynch then YOU will have to argue/discuss it out. Whether you agree with my logic/insanity or reasons for my 'deal' or voting with LF, the fact remains, ML is at L-1 in lylo and he isn't hammered yet when it should be autowin for scum (if scum think there is no SK). You can hate me for 'risking' the game on something as stupid as believing LF neutral survivor claim but I've already done it, and the information has already been gained.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I understand your post and I still disagree with your points and I don't see how you don't see my problems with it/you.

Did i say I will believe LF over anything and everything? no.

You say this and YES this makes me think you are scum.

Why?

it is simple. ML is scum, we lynch, left over scum buddy has to think about what happens in tomorrow's lylo. (let's say you or Illumina).

If they NK a townie (let's say Illumina), so it is Elmo-Corv-LF, then Elmo-scum is worried that he will lose in lylo because Corvuus is crazy and will vote with LF.

Sure, scum could just NK me, but maybe Illumina is harder to convince or link as scumbuddy, so elmo scum is stuck with trying to choose nightkill between a 'crazy/insane' townie or a townie illumina who's got nothing to do with ML-SC at all.

I will not quicklynch, promise votes or say ANYTHING about tomorrow since
1. I may die, and 2. there is no point since left over will discuss and do everything tomorrow anyways.

If you are afraid of me going into lylo, and being unconvincable of LF being scum, then make your case on LF already instead of just hedging and waiting.

You say you believe LF is scum but have you at any point said "why" except that he may be fakeclaiming?

How can you convince me if you have no case on LF except that his claim doesn't make sense and that he could be lying?

Why do you think any of what you said would convince me to rethink when you have given me NOTHING to rethink except how both of you (elmo, illumina) could be scum trying to figure out tomorrow. Both you (elmo) and Illumina said ML and LF are scumpair yet what is there said about LF?

What is there for me to rethink except you guys waiting/hedging, and you'll spend 'who knows' how long trying to convince me when fact is, most likely, you've already failed. You can't convince me if you have no reasons and you have given none.

I've pretty much already shown that ML *must* be scum so what else can you say/think or do except hammer him. Why even ask ML why LF is scum when ML himself is scum? heck, if ML is scum and LF was his buddy, then just self-vote and hammer already since then Crazy Corvy will give your LF scum buddy the win right?

Someone will die (hopefully me) and then tomorrow will start with either 1 scum and 2 townies, or 1 scum, 1 townie, 1 neutral survivor/or lying townie. Either way, I've done my best for my play and my vote will not change.

Unless Elmo or Illumina actually make a CASE on LF and not just why I should rethink, not be crazy, avoid the 'mind control eyes', etc., I will keep asking for someone to hammer. Not posting a case on LF and NOT hammering just makes me think you are scum.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Dear Elmo.

You didn't post a case on LF, neither did you hammer ML.

I'm 100% likely to lynch you as scum tomorrow if I am alive.

Thanks,

Your friend,

Corvuus

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Corvuus (from Elmo),

You didn't read my position, what is wrong with my position, take the day slow, why should we do this, etc. etc. You are crazy Corv. etc. etc.

Elmo

----------------

Dear Elmo,

I read your position, as I did before. I disagree, think you are wrong, you haven't convinced me at any point or otherwise, so it stays the same.

LF could be lying. We won't know until he flips right? I do not 100% believe his neutral survivor claim, but I don't think he is anti-town. Have you done anything to show me that he is scum and NOT a role that isn't anti-town (survivor or townie).

---------------------

Dear Corvuus,

I've been trying to tell you for a while, I don't believe his claim, he mindcontrol you, etc. etc.

--------------------

Dear Elmo,

Ok, You said that. But you haven't shown me how he is scum. It isn't enough to doubt his claim and that he is not a neutral survivor.

Why? Well, because I already screwed that up.

If the day started normally, then we would have scrutinized survivor claim, thought about it, struggled, thought, etc.

Instead, I voted ML, and LF voted ML. ML at L-1, not getting hammered changes everything.

Now instead of simply having to prove LF is lying about being neutral survivor, you will have to prove that he is Scum, scum busing his buddy (ML), and scum who lynched doc and then fakeclaimed Neutral survivor, oh and whatever other points you can think of.

Instead, you have done nothing except tell me to rethink and reconsider and given me nothing new. no new evidence, no new point of view, nothing.

---------------

Dear Corvuus,
Understand my point of view, etc. etc.

-----------------

Dear Elmo,

.... sigh... you didn't post a case on LF or hammer ML, so i will vote for you 100% as scum tomorrow.

Thanks,

Corvuus

-----------------

There, I did the iterations for you.

There is no reason for me to believe his claim. There is no answer to anything else you might ask me except me saying why haven't we hammered ML (obvious scum) yet.

As for the fairly obvious point about ML making a case on LF; sorry, it is wifom/mindgame etc. and I couldn't careless what ML says at this point. If he says I am scum, I will laugh. If he says LF is scum, I will laugh. If he says you (elmo) are scum, I will laugh.

Why? because ML himself is scum so what he says is absolutely mindgame as to whether it is him busing or him misleading, especially since he knows he is going to die. You asking him to do so is quite amusing though. thanks.

As for missing your position other than "omg ML must be scum hammer!", well, no, I have your position entirely in mind, I just think it is a scummy one so I don't see the point you are trying to make.

For the sake of us skipping further iterations:

Let's say I believe you Elmo. LF and ML are scumbuddies. We then lynch LF, and he flips scum (otherwise would be gg). Someone dies (let's say Illumina as designated cannonfodder) and so it is ML-Elmo-Corvuus.

ML has basically no chance of convincing me that he is town at this point, so Elmo and Corv vote ML.

GG town right?

but wait, Let's say we do it the other way. We lynch ML first, he flips scum. Illumina dies as cannonfodder and it is Elmo-LF-Corvuus.

Well, then you Elmo will have to convince me that LF is scum, which in your case of lynch ML first, LF second, you will CERTAINLY have to do.

So you should get going on convincing me that LF is scum.

Oh wait, i asked you to do that like 'eleventysix' pages ago. Instead, you don't have a case on him being scum, or anything but just on "why does Corvuus believe him!!!".

Well, that isn't the point is it. Who cares if I believe him earlier, now, or later. I believed ML was scum enough to vote him to L-1, and I'm ok with LF voting with me whether he is town, scum, or heck even neutral survivor.

There is no difference to me which scum dies first, as long as you show me that they are scum. I show ML as scum, we lynch scum, NK removes a player from the mix, survivors fight it out in lylo. If you can show me LF is scum, then go for it. If not, then hammer ML already.

If you say I missed/didn't answer your points... well... I don't think I did. Maybe I read it and I simply never cared since my points make yours irrelevant? I.e. what does taking more time, taking day slowly, etc. do that is pro-town and if so, then why spend so much time telling me to *rethink* LF instead of showing me why LF is scum. I.e. Why spend so much time talking about talking instead of doing?

i.e. I don't 100% believe LF but it is irrelevant at this point.
i.e. why keep asking me why I believe LF when it isn't relevant?

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Fine. We'll play it "this way" but this is by no means the "right way" to do lylo and I will disagree with you both on this for several reasons and I'm going to be really aggressive about it now.

Starting with....

Elmo:

You said survivor role was possible in your post#63. Why is it not possible now? Do you believe or disbelieve LF? Why? What do you think? What do you think is wrong with his claim, his actions, etc. You ask questions, but did you ever say your own viewpoint about ML and LF yourself? Why not?

Do you think LF is scum? Why? Evidence?

What do you think of LF talking to you, why do you ask about LF's lynch. Why do you ask ML? Why do you think ML is certain scum now but with LF? What do you think?


----------------------

Illumina:

You think (or at least said earlier) that you think I am town. Apparently so town I can claim SK and everyone chuckles nervously at my insanity. So fine. I am pro-town and anti-scum. So ML not being hammered tells us that he is scum. There is no 'if' "and" or "buts" about it regardless of my alignment as long as I am not scumbuddy (i am not) and as long as you and Elmo aren't scum together.

So it is guaranteed that ML is scum.

In your post #6, you say you think ML is scum. WHY? Give your reasons.

Your view changes as the day progresses where you want LF and ML to fight it out, and then, somehow, your view changes so that maybe not ML but LF is the day's lynch as certain scum and then it flip-flops back and forth. Tell me why in detail.

Why is there this shift? Why don't you have a case on LF that is better than your failed one with link to Qwints and yet why do you support lynching LF MORE than ML if your process of thinking follows with ML as being scummier than LF despite LF's claim. If you think LF is lying and SK, then that means there *has* to be two scum and therefore lynching him is auto-lose for town. So what do you think?

In your post #10, you are up for lynching Corv or LF with ML. Why? Then it is back to ML-LF. Why?

More hesitation, more worry and still NO info posted as to what you really think of LF and ML. Give post #'s, evidence, positions, etc.

-----------------

Corvuus' crazy/insane conclusion.

ML is scum, one of you is his scumbuddy and you are trying to figure out how to either

1. Save him by mislynching LF.
2. Prepare for tomorrow after ML's lynch.

Evidence: You both are hesitating, saying nothing, posting nothing and doing nothing (well not quite nothing, you are stating nothing over and over again repeatedly and waiting for 'something'?) and everything is dependent/relying on what YOUR alignments are. Your actions are scummy and anything you say and do ASIDE from

1. hammering ML scum
2. Posting a real case on LF for him being scum

just reeks of scumminess.

[Corvuus]

i'm really busy and can't post much or that frequently for a while.

-----------

ML: is there a point in your question?

Obviously since there is only 1 NK each night, there are only 2 (well 3) possibilities.

1. SK target same as Mafia
2. SK target got doc protected
3. there is no SK

--------------------------------

Illumina: Is your question of asking why ML can't be scum serious?

The only possibility would be that scum are afraid to hammer since they think SK would target them and they might 'miss' or hit NK resistance.

I do like how you ignored my questions/point on you Illumina where you thought ML is scum, and yet now, you are backing off from it without saying 'why', what happened, or what your original reasoning for ML/LF scum is.

--------

Elmo: If you think I am goading you, then sure why not. I am 100% willing to goad/bully/force someone to lynch obvious ML scum. I still don't see why you are hesitating or unwilling to do so, but also unwilling to say why LF is scum aside from 'if LF is scum, we have to lynch today'.

Well, obviously, we have to lynch scum today. LF has a chance of being scum but ML is certain scum. So go with what is certain right?

If you could show me that LF is certain scum, then by all means, do so. If you can show LF is more likely scum than ML, then I may switch my vote.

Until then, I still advocate hammering ML scum now, letting night actions figure themselves out and tomorrow will be far easier and more simple since someone will die.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

huh. oh well. Real life killed my activity but i think you guys should have hammered regardless.

I didn't see the rule, if there is no majority at deadline, it will be a no lynch otherwise I might have actually tried to be convincing, etc. instead of just leaving ML with 'most votes' at deadline or actually changed my vote to LF just to lynch someone since no lynch is autolose.

If it had been player with the most votes, then ML would be lynched and town would have easily won (I will say why). I still don't know why Elmo or Illumina didn't hammer such obvious scum and worry about things TOMORROW. You could hate me, dislike me, and want to lynch me, but you will still end up doing it tomorrow. If you know you are town, and you thought the other person (Elmo/Illumina) was town, and you thought LF was scum, then ML has to be scum as well right? What else is there to talk about? Indeed, you even said "ML-LF" are the scumteam, so why wait? You didn't believe I was SK, so there would be a tomorrow, I even told you there would be a tomorrow, so hammering is the best move and I got you 2 votes on ML scum.

As for why I claimed SK, I figured why not? You all had me as town and I wouldn't be lynched for it, I knew ML was scum. I simply needed 3 votes to lynch him and the only way to get LF's vote was for me to claim SK. I also thought there was 2 mafia-scum left and claiming SK would make me impossible to be lynched (since it is autolose for town if I am SK) and I would get LF's vote.

So I did and he did. That is all I wanted. I even told you several times what I wanted, i.e. ML hammered and then a new day would start, 1 player would be killed. If there was a SK and a Mafia left, then the game for town would most likely already be over, so I didn't care about that possibility. I actually expected LF to die at night after ML's lynch since LF was either SK or mafia scum since survivor didn't make sense. I assumed he was SK and so fakeclaimed SK to get his vote. Either way, it didn't matter. The day simply required that I lynch scum, I got 2 votes on ML and I expected one of you to hammer and I didn't say what I thought of LF because, hey look at that, he was voting certain scum ML and I just needed to lynch scum. If I said, I don't like or believe LF, he wouldn't vote with me. I was simply going to leave that until tomorrow since, to me, ML was certain scum, LF was possible scum/SK but ML *had* to die. If I died (since I did claim SK) then Elmo/Illumina would pawn LF. Town wins either way as long as the day didn't end 'no lynch'.

If I didn't die at night and LF didn't die, then he would be most suspect to me since that would show that there was no SK (since the game would have been instantly over if there was with 5 players left with 2 mafia and SK left, and if that was the case town would win since mafia would target LF-SK and LF would target mafia-scum) and that if there was a SK, it would be LF, if no SK, then LF has to be scum. There were no other possibilities.

Once I had gotten 2 votes on ML, the rest of the day didn't matter to me. I expected Illumina to hammer and not backtrack since Illumina said ML was scum. When Illumina backtracked from hammering obvious ML scum, I was confused. ML *was* scum, Illumina now said "no, i don't think he is scum". What changed in between thinking he was scum and thinking he isn't scum? My SK claim didn't matter since there HAS to be 2 scum left and I can't be lynched. I claim in case LF is SK and 2 scum are left and it is the only way for town to win, if LF is not SK, he is scum, and either way I still lynch ML-scum today and worry about tomorrow when it comes.

In the end, it seems the only reason why town lost was:

1. I thought ML would die at deadline so I didn't care and I wasn't around at the end anyways.

2. Illumina and Elmo wanted to lynch LF first and ML second. I wanted to lynch ML first and LF second. If I knew it would result in a no lynch, then I would have conceded to get someone lynched and if it happened to be LF first, then fine. Either way, ML-LF was most likely and further discussion WAS pointless from my point of view since it would be talking about 'tomorrow' when a NK would simplify and answer basically everything. i.e. LF not dying would convince me that it was 2 scum and no SK.

------------

I viewed the game as being already won, I just needed ML to die.

From my point of view, I covered every possibility except a deadline no lynch.

I thought Elmo and Illumina were town but said you weren't since
1. You refused to hammer ML scum. But you both thought he was scum?
2. I was hoping if I was crazy/pressured you both enough that not hammering ML scum was scummy that one of you would hammer. What else did I need to do to convince you when it was the only possibility?
3. Elmo said 'talk more', I said why it would be pointless and that he should hammer. I still think it is pointless since ML dead and a NK would tell us EVERYTHING. I kept saying a NK would tell us everything since, quite frankly, it would.

i.e. if 2 scum and SK, lynch scum, hope Mafia and scum kill each other. Only possibility for a town win.

If 2 scum and no SK, lynch ML-scum, 1 of non-ML players is killed. If it is LF who dies, then I get to think about you two since there can't be a SK. If LF doesn't die, then he is scum. Either way, talking doesn't help or do anything when ML HAS to die and thinking about tomorrow's lynch is pretty much pointless since WHO dies tells us who is guilty.

There were no other possibilities so my actions included everything. I believed there were 2 scum so I claimed SK to prevent my lynch and get LF's vote.

If the deadline wasn't a no lynch, town was guaranteed to win since:

If LF targeted anyone except me, he would be lynched.
If LF targeted me, he would be lynched.

If I died, flip town, Illumina and Elmo kill LF.

If I don't die, I am not SK, whoever is left (Elmo or Illumina) knows I am not SK or I can argue that I am not since I would have NKed someone and instantly won instead of dragging this game on and 'given them the chance' at winning. No SK means LF can't be neutral survivor, therefore he dies. gg.

All possibilities and outcomes point to town winning as long as ML was lynched. Once I reached that conclusion, I simply didn't care anymore.

Lynching LF first, 'may' be equivalent, but lynching ML first was certain victory to me; Lynching LF first, when he may have been SK and two scum left, was possible loss. ML lynch and NK reveals everything and town wins. So that is all I cared about and pushed for.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

not really. If you want, you can.

It is already over and, if the rules were deadline lynch instead of deadline no lynch, then my view would have won and it wouldn't matter if you disagree or hate me since my 'scenario' would have played out and town would win. I only required ML to be lynched and someone to be NKed. That is it and my scenario included 2 scum, no SK and 2 scum and SK possibility and both resulted in a town win. I didn't need to worry about anything else.

I claimed SK because I believed LF to be lying, i.e. scum/SK and that I would get his vote and keep it by fakeclaiming SK and that, I was so obvious town that it simply wouldn't matter and Illumina would hammer obvious ML-scum. 2 votes out of 3 needed on ML. I just needed a hammer. Simple and easy. Once ML dies, night actions are played out, etc. etc.

If you have a serious response for why you thought it was ML-LF and you didn't hammer because I claimed SK, then I would listen to it. If anything else, I will simply ask you why you didn't hammer when I had already told you 'everything' several times and you didn't care?

I told you I don't believe LF's claim. I told you I won't (and I wouldn't) vote immediately in lylo but discuss things AFTER a NK was resolved. I told you pretty much everything and said I want ML-scum hammered and then things simplify themselves tremendously. If game didn't end and only 1 NK, then there is no SK. If there was SK, then town had a chance at winning. If there was no SK and LF didn't die, then he is scum. If LF did die, then I get to look at whoever remains. It is really quite simple and at that point, talking just complicates things. Why did you want to talk about possibility of SK or not? Killing ML and looking at Night actions answers it 100%. Why talk about things when 100% answers are all obtained by lynching obvious ML scum?

I couldn't say my exact reasoning since, if I did, then it would be pointless. If I told you I thought LF was lying and either SK or scum and that I claimed SK to get his vote on ML (either way is victory) and that by claiming SK, there is no possibility of LF and I being allied together, etc. etc., he may have unvoted, more to talk about, more to discuss when a ML hammer and night actions resolve = certain victory.

Why spend 2 weeks talking about 'nothing' when hammering and night actions would reveal everything? If I knew deadline would be no lynch instead of deadline lynch, then I probably would have played differently.

I assumed my vote and LF's vote on ML was enough to lynch him and that I didn't need to do anything else. If LF changed his vote, then my earlier threat (vote with me or die) would have taken place and I would lynch LF. Either way, I didn't want to spend 2 weeks 'talking' and discussing 'nothing' (which ended up happening?) when a ML lynch and a NK action would resolve everything BEYOND what we could possibly discuss.

When I said make your case on LF, you had to show me that LF was a 100% certain victory compared to ML's lynch being a 100% certain victory. It never happened, and I was fine with waiting for what I thought would be a ML deadline lynch. I didn't think I needed to convince you but technically, I don't think any of us knew about deadline = no lynch since none of us brought it up (did extension but that was it).

Sidenote: In all of my games, I have always supported extension and I thought deadline always resulted in a 'simple majority' lynch in terms of having the most votes on a player and not a real majority. If ML was lynched by a majority of having 2 votes, then town would have won since LF is scum, would not kill himself and whoever he killed, the remaining would have lynched him.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

Ok. I'll accept responsibility for this loss. I am unhappy/dissatisfied that it was a deadline no lynch that caused the loss, but I could have tried to actually be convincing and not just "ML must die, hurry and hammer".

Claiming SK was spurious of me but
1. LF made his ridiculous claim, so I felt I could too.
2. I felt it covered all possible situations and scenarios (i.e. whether LF was SK or scum).
3. I was town enough and with 2 scum left, I couldn't possibly be lynched.

I didn't think claiming SK would result in 2 weeks of worrying about why I claimed SK (when if Elmo, etc. said I was lying town, make a conclusion as to WHY I was claiming and lying SK. I.e. because i thought LF 'may' be a SK (or scum) but DEFINITELY LF is anti-town and needs to die. Whether by lynch or NK.)

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For Qwints:

I gave you the hardest time and I am stubborn but you DID convince me you were the doc. Illumina brought it up again and I defended you but your answers to Illumina were not great to me. If you hadn't said what you said but just said (I already defended my doc claim to Corvuus, see my response) then I wouldn't have thought you scummy but what you said and how you said it (perhaps grammar choice by you?) was quite bad.

If you are the doc, and you know you are the doc, then why did you make your response and choose words that make you not seem like a doc but something else? You weren't the first person to ask for a massclaim (i think Elmo or jazz?) and I initially liked massclaim but what you said and how you said it was really bad. You claimed that massclaim would verify you (it wouldn't) and that several other things would occur that, quite simply, are impossible.

That, and if, like Jazz had read, you had actually meant the 'inoculate' part and mentioned it as a breadcrumb, did a better job with Atlas and why no CC on SC, then it would have been much more believable. Ironically, if I had split my post that made you claim into two parts (asking you to claim, and then saying what I didn't like about your flip vote on SC), then I would have liked you as a doc more.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

LF:

My offer stands.

Elmo and ML are discussing your lynch. Either they believe you are the SK or whatever. Either way, I don't think they are offering you anything but trying to lynch you.

I am offering you a hat game claim. You, me, Illumina vote and kill Elmo-ML (let's do ML first) as the scum team. The fact that they are even asking each other things in post is enough for me to accept them as team scum now.

I claim SK. Whether I am or not, it is up to scum decide. At this point the SK could be me, Illumina, or heck even you LF hiding behind a neutral survivor claim. Either way, it looks like you are either today's lynch LF or you trust me and we see who scum decide it is more important to kill.

That is the best I can offer you.

If you think I am lying and I'm really scum, at the very least, i am still offering to not lynch you today as long as you vote to lynch ML and if I am scum (with illumina as my ally?), then i will have won and so will you as you would satisfy your win condition.

Either way, I think your best option is to vote ML.

Vote ML

Corvuus

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Okay, let's take this slow and do it right. It seems to me this all hinges on whether LF is SK or lying mafia, am I right? Does town have the best chance (or most likely draw game) lynching mafia today?

Assuming that's the case, it looks like either LF or Macavity for scum today. Most of what I had on LF assumed qwints was his buddy, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be scum.

Macavity: can you convince us that LF is scum and not you?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Illumina:

for Qwints successfully blocked a kill every night, are you basing that on what Qwints himself said or on what LF said?

If you doubt that, and think there is no SK, then your case on LF isn't that he is SK but that he is mafia?

If so, then who is his buddy? If it was Elmo, the game may already be over if Elmo hammers ML. If it is you, then the game also may be over if you hammer ML.

If you think LF is scum, then his scumbuddy has to be ML, in which case, what is the point of this discussion in determining which?

I guess that is my confusion regarding both Elmo and Illumina. You say LF is scum, but the only possibility (if we take you both out of it, and you both say I am town despite everything, either way I have nothing with LF) is that ML is his scumbuddy, yet you won't vote.

What is the reason?

C

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There are more quotes I could reference but it starts with my fakeclaim and, when you ask me why I did it, I didn't say "why" since I thought it was obvious (I already said it was a hat game. I.e. I'm not a SK, but I will claim SK just in the off chance there are 2 scum and a SK (LF).)

Illumina said LF is either scum or SK. I agreed and said, "OK, lets lynch ML already and night kills will resolve it".

You said scum are ML-LF. I said "ok, hammer ML and night kills will resolve it".

Anything other than hammering, I interpret as bad.

As for what I said and discussed:

1. I was playing under the idea of 2 votes being a deadline lynch and that I bullied LF into voting ML sufficiently, so I didn't care about further discussion and I wanted to KEEP LF's vote to win deadline or get hammer (i hoped by Illumina).

-> thus, when you (Elmo) say he is lying, there is no SK, etc. I say I don't care or it doesn't matter to me and I did say I didn't believe his claim when you first started. I.e. I don't want to defend LF but I don't want to hang him out to dry since he IS voting with me on ML certain scum. Neither you or Illumina voted and while LF 'may' be scum to me, ML was certain, etc. , everything would be resolved/revealed tomorrow (someone dies, discussion, etc.) so that is why I took a hardline approach.

As for why I said I believed LF... it is because you guys refused to hammer ML and you kept attacking LF and wanted LF as today's lynch, then I had to say I believe him because I wanted ML as the day's lynch since LF's alignment would be known 'tomorrow' and in the off chance he was SK (with 2 scum) it would be town's optimal play/best chance at winning (hoping for Crosskills).

So perhaps the confusion was that you wanted LF as the day's lynch. I wanted ML. We were both willing to do ML-LF (in some order) but I wanted ML as the day's lynch since I was sure while I was iffyish on LF but night actions resolve it (to me. i.e. ML dies, no SK, LF is a liar since no SK, no neutral survivor, etc.). The more you argued that LF was the day's lynch over ML, the more I would defend/say I believe LF in order to get ML lynched.

So when I made my 'concession', it was already my 2nd attempt at talking to you guys and, from my point of view, it was "pointless" and I was fed up with both of you since, at some point, both of you said ML is scum, LF is his buddy but wouldn't hammer ML or vote and I could not understand "why".

The argument you made about me in a 3man lylo instantly voting was silly to me and that is why I responded with, "obviously, I won't instant vote in lylo, and we can discuss and do everything but we have to lynch scum today and night kills resolve/reveal everything". What else can I say without having to say "everything" and risk losing LF's vote (since I was going to test him via night action) and I was close to a hammer and didn't want to 'backtrack'/lose progress.

I didn't think it that hard of a leap to think: Corv is town, he claimed SK? why? He believes there is a SK? Doesn't make sense, but it doesn't really 'matter'. Corv as scum claiming SK out of the blue makes zero sense so Corv is either town or SK, most likely not SK, so why claim SK unless he wants SK's vote, or is testing/figuring it out, LF is SK? ML is the only one who said Corv is scum for claiming SK (which makes no sense and confirmed my belief even more).

By claiming SK, I ensured that either I or LF would be the NK (i.e. 2 scum and SK, scum have to assume it is either me or LF). If neither of those options happened, then LF is scum. etc. etc.

Which is why I said you have to prove LF is scum beyond ML, and why I went from my earlier statement of "not believing LF and he is a punk for his actions" (early day post) to saying, "i believe him". I didn't want LF as the day's lynch. Oh well, I could have done it differently and 'less' effort in possible circumstances and maybe not claim SK and Illumina hammer ML, one of us dies (illumina) and then no SK -> LF is scum.

It is also interesting to note, that both scum repeatedly tried to say "1 scum, 1 SK" or other role speculations and they were simply ignored. I assumed 2 scum and SK or 2 scum and no SK, and I didn't care or listen to anything ML-LF said at that point as long as I got a ML hammer.

Corvuus