I want you to realise that blindly accepting LF's claim without even thinking about it is really freaking stupid. Like I've said repeatedly.
Corvuus wrote:I have also said that I won't quicklynch you. So either you don't believe me or you think lynching LF is better than ML.
Corvuus wrote:I never said you were SK. I said you were scum by process of elimination, assuming LF is neutral,
The latter quote is a good example of your stance, which seems to mean I am basically doomed tomorrow if you're still alive; you've already arbitrarily decided I am scum because LF isn't, and that's that. From my point of view, I am basically forced to either lynch LF today or talk you round with respect to LF before lynching ML. I've repeatedly told you to
talk to Illumina
, someone you see as town, and you don't seem to be at all interested in even that; you should
definitely
do that before we lynch ML at minimum.
Can you not put yourself in my shoes for two minutes, yea?
Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford
I really dont mean to sound bitchy or anything here but when people keep saying that they want to lynch me and the only things that have been put up against me are that I am scum with qwints and that I am scum with ML... hell thats not anything that I can even defend against. Its like saying "Because I said so".
If you never saw the night deaths and just looked at the posts of the game, having both OGML night one who basically moved the wagon onto SC, and the Jazz who was regarded as pro-town by just about everyone be the respective kills makes sense. They both became the kill even they made that much sense.
Last night is just the one that confuses me and I still havent been able to piece together. I dont know if there is a NK immune anti-town role, if jazz was killed by both groups, or if someone decided not to submit a kill. If I knew which of those happened this game would be a lot easier then it is at this point. Hell maybe even scum think I was town or SK bluffing with my claim and thats why they didnt pick up the no lynch, I dont know, I wish I did because I dont want to be lynch on a day where most any lynch apart from mine would lead to a win condition fullfillment.
Any questions that I can actually address with anything more then speculation?
LlamaFluff wrote:For my previous posts against ML, my iso 39 followed by back and forths with elmo in 42/43 and ML in 51/52. Jazz explained stuff a little better then me though in her post about ML
You can call me stupid (i'm fine with that) but in the end ML is at 2 votes with 3 to lynch.
You all say I am town, and that I should talk and talk with Illumina but quite frankly, what is there for me to say when it is really what YOU guys should be talking and saying.
Whether you like it or not, if you think I am town and ML is either scum/town (but not neutral since you don't believe his claim?) then I've already voted ML to L-1 with him and PROVEN that certain possibilities of scumbuddies, etc. don't work and others do work.
In the cases where they do work, ML is scum. If ML is NOT scum, and scum is pretty much anyone except me and LF together then the game would have been over already right? but it isn't. You could say SK, but you don't believe there is one. You also believe I am town, so LF and I aren't in this 'together' so ML not being dead yet means that ML *is* scum.
The fact is, I actually trust Illumina and Elmo LESS now than before since your 'hesitation', waiting/arguments don't make sense.
Elmo: I can understand you waiting since you think I may quickhammer you (if i live) but I don't understand your position otherwise.
Illumina: I don't understand your position and I actually trust Elmo MORE than you now since your position and actions only make sense if you are scumbuddies with ML.
I could go on but it all amounts to this:
If you all think ML is scum, and you think there is no SK, then WHY ISN'T there a hammer? What else is there to discuss? Scum get killed, someone gets NKed, a new day and a new analysis. If LF is scum, then whoever is survivors of tomorrow will get to discuss and figure it out. Either way at this point, ML can and MUST not survive. I will not be changing my vote.
Elmo: Your reasoning about waiting to play out tomorrow because you are 'afraid of me' does not make sense. You don't know i will be alive tomorrow (unless you are scum and have already planned! wee!) and I've already told you that i won't quicklynch, etc. etc. There is nothing left that I can say or guarantee you.
Unless you are going to convince me that ML is not scum or that somehow LF is scummier than ML, there is NOTHING left for me to say or to talk to any of you (illumina, elmo, etc.).
If you don't want ML to be today's lynch then YOU will have to argue/discuss it out. Whether you agree with my logic/insanity or reasons for my 'deal' or voting with LF, the fact remains, ML is at L-1 in lylo and he isn't hammered yet when it should be autowin for scum (if scum think there is no SK). You can hate me for 'risking' the game on something as stupid as believing LF neutral survivor claim but I've already done it, and the information has already been gained.
I am not calling you stupid, I said a particular course of action is stupid. Smart people sometimes do dumb things. The most common, as in this case, is a failure to actually examine all reasonable possibilities. I have still not heard one single reason why LF is unlikely to be lying. I don't think you've even seriously analysed the possibility at this point.
Corvuus wrote:The fact is, I actually trust Illumina and Elmo LESS now than before since your 'hesitation', waiting/arguments don't make sense.
What specifically does not make sense about what either of us has said?
Corvuus wrote:Illumina: I don't understand your position and I actually trust Elmo MORE than you now since your position and actions only make sense if you are scumbuddies with ML.
I absolutely disagree. Obviously, if Illumina is scum with ML, then I must be town, so at least one townie is disagreeing with you somewhere.
Corvuus wrote:You don't know i will be alive tomorrow (unless you are scum and have already planned! wee!) and I've already told you that i won't quicklynch, etc. etc. There is nothing left that I can say or guarantee you.
It doesn't matter that you won't quick-lynch me, it matters that you will probably end up voting me over LF. They are essentially equivalent; town loses either way.
If I'm right about LF being scum and you being town, it is intensely obvious that he would not want to kill off a townie that believes he is not scum, and Illumina looks more town than me due to SC's interactions with him. If you put yourself in LF-mafia's position, the correct play is obvious. That's why I think it will happen; I never said I knew for sure, but I rate it very very likely if I'm right about alignments.
Corvuus wrote:if you think I am town and ML is either scum/town (but not neutral since you don't believe his claim?)
ML hasn't claimed neutral. LF did. I currently believe ML is mafia with LF and you are town, as I've repeatedly said.
Corvuus wrote:Unless you are going to convince me that ML is not scum or that somehow LF is scummier than ML, there is NOTHING left for me to say or to talk to any of you (illumina, elmo, etc.).
No, your opinion of LF being less likely to be scum than me or Illumina is very important, and what I've been talking about for most of the day by this point.
It is very simple. If Corvuus is convinced LF is not mafia, and LF is mafia, then we almost certainly lose unless we lynch LF today. That's it. I believe LF is fakeclaiming scum. So from my point of view, either we have to lynch LF today or Corvuus has to reconsider, or we lose. Do you follow thus far? Am I wrong?
Another reason why I'm "waiting" is that my reads are based on 'general gut' - I want to reread back through the whole game, think about it a bit, because we're in LyLo. At minimum, I've thought ML was likely town for a fair chunk of the game; I think I was probably wrong (and meta indicates I made a similar mistake before) but it means I'm somewhat more cautious in LyLo. Also, the last time I was in LyLo, I was very very hasty and pretty much threw the game away, so I'm probably being overly conservative here; I don't care. :J
Illumina, am I just going nuts with respect to Corvuus? It looks like LF has thrown some kind of magic pixie dust at him and now he's gone all
I understand your post and I still disagree with your points and I don't see how you don't see my problems with it/you.
Did i say I will believe LF over anything and everything? no.
You say this and YES this makes me think you are scum.
Why?
it is simple. ML is scum, we lynch, left over scum buddy has to think about what happens in tomorrow's lylo. (let's say you or Illumina).
If they NK a townie (let's say Illumina), so it is Elmo-Corv-LF, then Elmo-scum is worried that he will lose in lylo because Corvuus is crazy and will vote with LF.
Sure, scum could just NK me, but maybe Illumina is harder to convince or link as scumbuddy, so elmo scum is stuck with trying to choose nightkill between a 'crazy/insane' townie or a townie illumina who's got nothing to do with ML-SC at all.
I will not quicklynch, promise votes or say ANYTHING about tomorrow since
1. I may die, and 2. there is no point since left over will discuss and do everything tomorrow anyways.
If you are afraid of me going into lylo, and being unconvincable of LF being scum, then make your case on LF already instead of just hedging and waiting.
You say you believe LF is scum but have you at any point said "why" except that he may be fakeclaiming?
How can you convince me if you have no case on LF except that his claim doesn't make sense and that he could be lying?
Why do you think any of what you said would convince me to rethink when you have given me NOTHING to rethink except how both of you (elmo, illumina) could be scum trying to figure out tomorrow. Both you (elmo) and Illumina said ML and LF are scumpair yet what is there said about LF?
What is there for me to rethink except you guys waiting/hedging, and you'll spend 'who knows' how long trying to convince me when fact is, most likely, you've already failed. You can't convince me if you have no reasons and you have given none.
I've pretty much already shown that ML *must* be scum so what else can you say/think or do except hammer him. Why even ask ML why LF is scum when ML himself is scum? heck, if ML is scum and LF was his buddy, then just self-vote and hammer already since then Crazy Corvy will give your LF scum buddy the win right?
Someone will die (hopefully me) and then tomorrow will start with either 1 scum and 2 townies, or 1 scum, 1 townie, 1 neutral survivor/or lying townie. Either way, I've done my best for my play and my vote will not change.
Unless Elmo or Illumina actually make a CASE on LF and not just why I should rethink, not be crazy, avoid the 'mind control eyes', etc., I will keep asking for someone to hammer. Not posting a case on LF and NOT hammering just makes me think you are scum.
Corvuus wrote:Did i say I will believe LF over anything and everything? no. You say this and YES this makes me think you are scum.
Corvuus wrote:You can hate me for 'risking' the game on something as stupid as believing LF neutral survivor claim but I've already done it
You haven't explicitly stated it - and I've never said you have - but it certainly looks like you will very probably end up voting for me tomorrow in the situation I described. You are very definitely convinced that LF is a survivor, and I don't see why my perception of you is unreasonable.
Corvuus wrote:You say you believe LF is scum but have you at any point said "why" except that he may be fakeclaiming? How can you convince me if you have no case on LF except that his claim doesn't make sense and that he could be lying?
You've got it backwards; I am not arguing you should see him as scum. I am saying, repeatedly, that there is no good reason to see him as a real survivor. From my point of view, your opinion of LF's alignment should be "I don't know" based on the survivor claim alone. But it's not; you've said that you believe his survivor claim, and that needs to be dealt with before anything else. There is no good reason to believe him since it makes perfect sense for him to be lying. But I still have no idea why you believe him, which makes it impossible to argue against it. This is why I've been asking you why you believe him for eleventysix pages and I still haven't gotten an answer.
Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford
And if there is some reason you believe him besides just claiming, like there's some facet of his play that makes far more sense for a survivor than a mafioso, then I've missed that, and I can't remember you saying anything like that. I am quite literally still guessing at why you believe him; I have no idea. None.
It should be fairly obvious why I'm asking ML for his case on LF; I want him to choose between self-preservation and bussing his buddy. Him self-hammering now and LF killing Illumina would probably be winning, yes. He'll probably be less likely to do it now you've said that, but it's perfectly good play.
I have answered all (or most?) of your questions, but I can't remember you answering any of mine. You haven't actually said what's wrong with my position other than "OMG ML MUST BE SCUM HAMMAH HAMMAH" which misses the entirety of my point, even beyond me wanting to take it slowly today.
Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford
You didn't read my position, what is wrong with my position, take the day slow, why should we do this, etc. etc. You are crazy Corv. etc. etc.
Elmo
----------------
Dear Elmo,
I read your position, as I did before. I disagree, think you are wrong, you haven't convinced me at any point or otherwise, so it stays the same.
LF could be lying. We won't know until he flips right? I do not 100% believe his neutral survivor claim, but I don't think he is anti-town. Have you done anything to show me that he is scum and NOT a role that isn't anti-town (survivor or townie).
---------------------
Dear Corvuus,
I've been trying to tell you for a while, I don't believe his claim, he mindcontrol you, etc. etc.
--------------------
Dear Elmo,
Ok, You said that. But you haven't shown me how he is scum. It isn't enough to doubt his claim and that he is not a neutral survivor.
Why? Well, because I already screwed that up.
If the day started normally, then we would have scrutinized survivor claim, thought about it, struggled, thought, etc.
Instead, I voted ML, and LF voted ML. ML at L-1, not getting hammered changes everything.
Now instead of simply having to prove LF is lying about being neutral survivor, you will have to prove that he is Scum, scum busing his buddy (ML), and scum who lynched doc and then fakeclaimed Neutral survivor, oh and whatever other points you can think of.
Instead, you have done nothing except tell me to rethink and reconsider and given me nothing new. no new evidence, no new point of view, nothing.
---------------
Dear Corvuus,
Understand my point of view, etc. etc.
-----------------
Dear Elmo,
.... sigh... you didn't post a case on LF or hammer ML, so i will vote for you 100% as scum tomorrow.
Thanks,
Corvuus
-----------------
There, I did the iterations for you.
There is no reason for me to believe his claim. There is no answer to anything else you might ask me except me saying why haven't we hammered ML (obvious scum) yet.
As for the fairly obvious point about ML making a case on LF; sorry, it is wifom/mindgame etc. and I couldn't careless what ML says at this point. If he says I am scum, I will laugh. If he says LF is scum, I will laugh. If he says you (elmo) are scum, I will laugh.
Why? because ML himself is scum so what he says is absolutely mindgame as to whether it is him busing or him misleading, especially since he knows he is going to die. You asking him to do so is quite amusing though. thanks.
As for missing your position other than "omg ML must be scum hammer!", well, no, I have your position entirely in mind, I just think it is a scummy one so I don't see the point you are trying to make.
For the sake of us skipping further iterations:
Let's say I believe you Elmo. LF and ML are scumbuddies. We then lynch LF, and he flips scum (otherwise would be gg). Someone dies (let's say Illumina as designated cannonfodder) and so it is ML-Elmo-Corvuus.
ML has basically no chance of convincing me that he is town at this point, so Elmo and Corv vote ML.
GG town right?
but wait, Let's say we do it the other way. We lynch ML first, he flips scum. Illumina dies as cannonfodder and it is Elmo-LF-Corvuus.
Well, then you Elmo will have to convince me that LF is scum, which in your case of lynch ML first, LF second, you will CERTAINLY have to do.
So you should get going on convincing me that LF is scum.
Oh wait, i asked you to do that like 'eleventysix' pages ago. Instead, you don't have a case on him being scum, or anything but just on "why does Corvuus believe him!!!".
Well, that isn't the point is it. Who cares if I believe him earlier, now, or later. I believed ML was scum enough to vote him to L-1, and I'm ok with LF voting with me whether he is town, scum, or heck even neutral survivor.
There is no difference to me which scum dies first, as long as you show me that they are scum. I show ML as scum, we lynch scum, NK removes a player from the mix, survivors fight it out in lylo. If you can show me LF is scum, then go for it. If not, then hammer ML already.
If you say I missed/didn't answer your points... well... I don't think I did. Maybe I read it and I simply never cared since my points make yours irrelevant? I.e. what does taking more time, taking day slowly, etc. do that is pro-town and if so, then why spend so much time telling me to *rethink* LF instead of showing me why LF is scum. I.e. Why spend so much time talking about talking instead of doing?
i.e. I don't 100% believe LF but it is irrelevant at this point.
i.e. why keep asking me why I believe LF when it isn't relevant?
Corv, you're being silly. You said above that you don't believe LF's claim... Isn't that significant? Like Elmo said, you've got at least one townie disagreeing with you that the ML lynch is as incredibly obvious as you're making it out to be. At least be patient with us so we can do things right in lylo.
It seems to me that ML not being hammered tells us the following:
1) I'm not scum with LF or Corv, since the game would already be over.
2) Elmo isn't scum with LF or Corv for the same reasons.
3) If ML is town, two mafia left would have already won (except if the team is Corv and LF, who are already voting for him).
Unless I'm missing something, it's not guaranteed that ML is the last scum based on this fact.
LF: Could you reiterate the case? Just a concise summary will do, so I know what to look for.
Fine. We'll play it "this way" but this is by no means the "right way" to do lylo and I will disagree with you both on this for several reasons and I'm going to be really aggressive about it now.
Starting with....
Elmo:
You said survivor role was possible in your post#63. Why is it not possible now? Do you believe or disbelieve LF? Why? What do you think? What do you think is wrong with his claim, his actions, etc. You ask questions, but did you ever say your own viewpoint about ML and LF yourself? Why not?
Do you think LF is scum? Why? Evidence?
What do you think of LF talking to you, why do you ask about LF's lynch. Why do you ask ML? Why do you think ML is certain scum now but with LF? What do you think?
----------------------
Illumina:
You think (or at least said earlier) that you think I am town. Apparently so town I can claim SK and everyone chuckles nervously at my insanity. So fine. I am pro-town and anti-scum. So ML not being hammered tells us that he is scum. There is no 'if' "and" or "buts" about it regardless of my alignment as long as I am not scumbuddy (i am not) and as long as you and Elmo aren't scum together.
So it is guaranteed that ML is scum.
In your post #6, you say you think ML is scum. WHY? Give your reasons.
Your view changes as the day progresses where you want LF and ML to fight it out, and then, somehow, your view changes so that maybe not ML but LF is the day's lynch as certain scum and then it flip-flops back and forth. Tell me why in detail.
Why is there this shift? Why don't you have a case on LF that is better than your failed one with link to Qwints and yet why do you support lynching LF MORE than ML if your process of thinking follows with ML as being scummier than LF despite LF's claim. If you think LF is lying and SK, then that means there *has* to be two scum and therefore lynching him is auto-lose for town. So what do you think?
In your post #10, you are up for lynching Corv or LF with ML. Why? Then it is back to ML-LF. Why?
More hesitation, more worry and still NO info posted as to what you really think of LF and ML. Give post #'s, evidence, positions, etc.
-----------------
Corvuus' crazy/insane conclusion.
ML is scum, one of you is his scumbuddy and you are trying to figure out how to either
1. Save him by mislynching LF.
2. Prepare for tomorrow after ML's lynch.
Evidence: You both are hesitating, saying nothing, posting nothing and doing nothing (well not quite nothing, you are stating nothing over and over again repeatedly and waiting for 'something'?) and everything is dependent/relying on what YOUR alignments are. Your actions are scummy and anything you say and do ASIDE from
1. hammering ML scum
2. Posting a real case on LF for him being scum
Corvuus, when this is over, I'm nominating you for an Overzealous Townie award.
Corvuus wrote:So ML not being hammered tells us that he is scum.
How did you arrive at this conclusion? And when does the next interstellar shuttle leave so I can get there, too? Please tell me what I'm missing.
Not sure what you mean by my post #10: I've never wanted to lynch you. I was talking about what we could logically deduce based on ML still being alive, that's all.
I think based on the power roles we have two mafia left. I've thought you were town for most of the game; the SK claim makes no sense as any alignment, so I've tossed it out as null. From my point of view, either you're scum or MacavityLock is scum with one of Illumina or LLamaFluff. Given I think you're town, I think ML is scum and need to look for his buddy. Illumina's play seems pretty townish, and SC's interactions with Apoth are a point in his favour; I've thought LF was sketchy through the game, voting him most(?) of yesterday. So it's mostly the culmination of reads plus process of elimination; my experience is that while it's not uncommon for people to avoid suspicion, it's really hard to look more townish than a real townie. I am leaning towards Illumina being town and LF being scum; that pairing seems to make the most sense right now.
In terms of evidence against LF/ML, there's probably a fair amount, but I'd have to go back through the game, which I haven't done yet. I'm hella lazy this game, but we already knew that. I think that should answer all your questions. (I haven't said survivor isn't possible, I've stated my views on LF/ML before, I don't know what you mean about LF talking to me, I've said why I asked ML, I haven't said ML is certain scum, yadda yadda.)
Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford
Corvuus wrote:Evidence: You both are hesitating, saying nothing, posting nothing and doing nothing (well not quite nothing, you are stating nothing over and over again repeatedly and waiting for 'something'?) and everything is dependent/relying on what YOUR alignments are. Your actions are scummy and anything you say and do ASIDE from
1. hammering ML scum
2. Posting a real case on LF for him being scum
just reeks of scumminess.
Elmo and Illumina: You do realize that he's trying to taunt you into hammering, yes?
@mod
or anyone who can answer, I have a stupid hypothetical question: If 1 mafia and 1 SK were the last two players, what faction would win?
I was hoping that wouldn't happen. Blah. Illumina, what do you think of
everyone
? What do you think of voting LF over ML? I'm prolly gonna do my reread, but my "thing" with Corvuus is on my mind; I think it still applies to you, less so. I dunno.
ML should probably switch vote to LF since I'm not voting Corvuus today and I doubt Illumina is. If neither of those two are scum then we're pretty much hosed anyway so :V
p.s. Mod, the two days were over the weekend with five alive :\ but w/e
Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford
Yeah, I hear you guys. There's just one more thing I'd like to hear from Corv. Corv, as you've claimed SK, who did you kill/attempt to kill each night?
