Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Duchess]

I love your avatar, OutWorldER!

VOTE: Reformed Toxic Player

You should get one!

[Duchess]

Lotus is that a random vote?

[Duchess]

Lotus is that a random vote?

yeah

Do you think Elements self-voting is alignment indicative in any way? Do you think Dunn's vote was random?

[Duchess]

Datisi. If I'm to assume you're asking why I questioned Lotus and not Dunnstral, it's simply because Dunnstral said other words. They weren't related to his vote (which imo is self-evident enough), but content is content, and empty vote posts are just that.

[Duchess]

Elements. Can you talk about how you usually form such early reads? I know the whole idea of a gut read is that the reasoning may be hard to describe precisely, but I'm hoping you can tell us what kinds of things tend to set your gut off, and if anything so far this game comes close to meeting that criteria despite an unfamiliar playerlist.

[Duchess]

I’m actually sussing on Elements a bit. Besides the whole “reads by p2” thing, them randomly declaring that someone is town without elaboration reeks of low-effort posting.

This is a bit of an exaggeration for so early in the game. I don't like how aggressive the language is, and it comes across as trying to convince people to continue wagonning Elements without dirtying her hands.

UNVOTE: RTP

VOTE: Harumi Ayasato

[Duchess]

I dislike Testarossa's post about VP. She comes out looking like she is trying extra hard, putting a lot of thought into the game, maybe an asset to town, but it's far too early in my opinion for any of those points against VP to have come from a genuine ping. However, I dislike Italiano's subsequent vote even more; it feels opportunistic in its timing, and the reason given ("not taking a chance" on whether or not "you caught me" is a joke) is terrible, as if he didn't want to admit he was piggybacking on Testa's post. I think I will keep my Harumi vote for now, but these two are both on my radar.

[Duchess]

Testa could simply be over-thinking/overactive town.

[Duchess]

Elements. You say you normally have an easy time getting early reads, and you seem set on sorting everyone one way or the other whenever possible even this early in the game, however you have all the players you say you are experienced with as some degree of null. Can you please elaborate on why you say you have an easier time reading familiar players, and maybe why that's different this game it would seem?

[Duchess]

Datisi. If I'm to assume you're asking why I questioned Lotus and not Dunnstral, it's simply because Dunnstral said other words. They weren't related to his vote (which imo is self-evident enough), but content is content, and empty vote posts are just that.

what do you mean by "is self-evident enough"?

It seems obvious to me that Dunn voted due to the self-vote, but he can feel free to pipe up if I'm wrong.

[Duchess]

so in your mind, VD, you're a bad scum player because you were meme quick-eliminated in RVS?

Where did you get that? I'm not sure I like or understand your line of questioning.

[Duchess]

Harumi is a slot that will be useful in evaluating other slots for me based on their play thus far, so I'm taking a hands off approach for now with them.

Would they still be useful for evaluating other slots if they are town? I'm not sure if you're talking about a spew-angle here, or a sitting duck/low hanging fruit angle.

[Duchess]

I agree that the presentation of Elements's reads looks town on the surface, but I'm surprised more people aren't noticing the lack of commitment to a read on the players Elements should supposedly have a much easier time reading. Obviously it's early to be expecting "commitment", but they didn't have a problem slapping full town/scum labels on people with only 1 post.

[Duchess]

I wouldn't say there is meant to be much of a progression between those two posts you linked. Elements did not directly answer my first question, but posting the readslist and the ensuing discussion was a satisfying enough response to me. Rather than prod for a direct answer, I pivoted to a different line of questioning, one that is more relevant now, and that nobody else seems to be picking up on. I don't fully understand what you're saying about Testa. Are you saying that I'm trying hard as well and so shouldn't be suspicious of her, or just that you had an opposite read?

[Duchess]

I also wouldn't say I was "genuinely curious" about Elements's process. I ask because I want a response, not necessarily an answer.

[Duchess]

Then it seems you have a problem with my writing style and not my play.

[Duchess]

My problem with Testa's push is that she's just describing what the RVS stage generally looks like, "rubbing two sticks together" as VP put it, and trying to find blame to put on VP.

[Duchess]

Then it seems you have a problem with my writing style and not my play.

perhaps, time will tell. it's a line i'm interested in pursuing for now.

By all means, your vote is your vote, and the game is young.

[Duchess]

I feel no need to defend my undermining of a clear strawman.

[Duchess]

That's not a contradiction; I don't understand why you would ask such a loaded question if you are town.

[Duchess]

I didn't interpret any sort of correlation between the two points in post 55, and I'm not sure why proximity trumps context for you in that respect. Italiano himself later explained there is no correlation in post 108.

I already explained what I meant by not liking or understanding it. Don't keep twisting people's words. This is not a defense of Italiano, this is an attack on what I saw as a possible setup for a scummy push. I'm not "trying to find a reason to shade" you, I know exactly what about you I find shady, and am making an honest inquest. Meanwhile, you are continuing to misrepresent others' words including my own, lazily discrediting my arguments with your "(?)"s, and projecting your own vague shadecasting onto me.

UNVOTE: Harumi

VOTE: Green Crayons

[Duchess]

Green Crayons. You are characterizing my push on you as a response to your suspicion of me, which is a complete fabrication you seem to have pulled out of thin air for the sake of your argument. My trajectory is very clearly laid out. To call me defensive is nothing but more baseless projection.

I still entirely disagree with your interpretation of VD's response. The last two sentences are not full-on non-sequiturs, but they're not a justification for the first. I see them as Italiano adding his own thoughts to RTP's previous post. I am not interested in discussing theory of conversation or hearing your analogies, and I'm troubled by your refusal to address the post in question directly.

[Duchess]

@duchess, can you tell me why is green's question pinging you that much? like, why does such a loaded question seem impossible (not quite the right word, but can't think of another rn) from town's pov and what kinda possible push were you seeing there?

His defense and attempt to turn the tables on me are strengthening my read by a lot. I don't know exactly what kind of push I was expecting to see, but if I recall correctly there was some discussion just before that time of Italiano possibly being an easy early push, and what I saw pinged me, so I wanted to nip it in the bud.

[Duchess]

duchess whats your take on Datisi?

I don't have any strong feelings about his alignment right now. He seems very focused on gameplay.

[Duchess]

Italiano. Please point to exactly where I have defended you. I'm surprised that even from your point of view you are clinging to GC's false characterization of my push as a defense. Your vantage point should make it abundantly clear that I have done absolutely nothing to defend your words or justify your actions. So I'm curious about precisely where you are getting the feeling that I am stepping up to bat for you rather than attacking a scumread. This early in the game, I know nothing. Nobody knows anything, except for scum. So if X looks to be setting up a scumpush against Y, I don't think for a damn second about what my read of Y is, because I have no reason to be so sure of anything that I would let those first impressions and assumptions of Y dictate my assessment of situation X.

I gotta say I'm not at all comfortable being in the middle of this Duchess/Green Crayons thing, lol. Like yikes, I don't like what I say to be a basis to read someone else off when it wasn't my intention to do so. If this is theatre please choose something else to fight over and leave me out of it and if you're town then just drop it, it's not that serious.

Can you elaborate on how exactly it makes you uncomfortable and why?
Why is it either theatre or town vs town?

I already said I didn't have an issue with Green's questioning.

So what? I'm not pushing GC for your benefit and I don't need your blessings or permission.

Is there a reason you are so adamant about this?

This is a very strange question. I'm pushing a scumread, which is what you do in the game of mafia. I'll be either right or wrong in the end, but for now I'm quite confident.

[Duchess]

duchess whats your take on Datisi?

I don't have any strong feelings about his alignment right now. He seems very focused on gameplay.

you can give a little more than that

cmon I believe in you.

I really don't have anything else to say at the moment, sorry.

[Duchess]

No? That's my take from looking at your ISO. I didn't draw any conclusions from it.

[Duchess]

Because RTP asked? "I have no take" is not a very satisfying answer. I took a glance at your ISO when they asked, and that was all I could glean. If nobody had asked I would have continued to not say anything about you until I had something pertinent to share.

[Duchess]

Bring the smoke then, a vote puts about as much pressure on me as the bottom of a puddle.

[Duchess]

I have a response to GC in the works but I have to step away from the keyboard for now. I'm looking forward to what you've got, RTP.

[Duchess]

I have a response to GC in the works but I have to step away from the keyboard for now. I'm looking forward to what you've got, RTP.

Who are your top scumreads right now?

Green Crayons, followed by Harumi. Italiano is not looking great either, and Elements has now ignored my direct question twice, and is voting me without the slightest engagement.

Do you have any order/hierarchy to your reads? You have been doing a lot of labelling but I can't recall much weighing against each other.

[Duchess]

Bring the smoke then, a vote puts about as much pressure on me as the bottom of a puddle.

Are you usually this combative as town? Or is this game pissing you off?

I couldn't narrow my towngame to a single identifier. I'm as combative as the situation calls for. What gives you the impression I'm angry?

[Duchess]

Elements.

Please comment.

Elements. You say you normally have an easy time getting early reads, and you seem set on sorting everyone one way or the other whenever possible even this early in the game, however you have all the players you say you are experienced with as some degree of null. Can you please elaborate on why you say you have an easier time reading familiar players, and maybe why that's different this game it would seem?

I agree that the presentation of Elements's reads looks town on the surface, but I'm surprised more people aren't noticing the lack of commitment to a read on the players Elements should supposedly have a much easier time reading. Obviously it's early to be expecting "commitment", but they didn't have a problem slapping full town/scum labels on people with only 1 post.

[Duchess]

VP, where did I respond in bad faith to GC?

[Duchess]

The questions weren't directed at me, I was calling out his frivolous prodding at Italiano.

Common? I doubt there are many games where I've played completely passive as town. But I wouldn't necessarily say I'm a pugnacious player.

[Duchess]

Green Crayons. You are characterizing my push on you as a response to your suspicion of me, which is a complete fabrication you seem to have pulled out of thin air for the sake of your argument. My trajectory is very clearly laid out. To call me defensive is nothing but more baseless projection.

Mischaracterization.

I said you were affirmatively defending VD and separately your attack on me when I questioned your defense of VD was suspicious. I have never said that you started pushing me solely in response to my suspicion of you, which is contradicted by my first engaging you based on your fence-sitting attack on my Q to VD. You first started pushing me to defend VD, and then started attacking me when I pressed you back.

I know that contradicts, which is why I called it baseless and said you were pulling this out of thin air. I do understand what you're saying here, though, but this is the last time I will say I was not ever defending Italiano as town. Sure, suspecting you for the reasons I initially did implies that I think Italiano is town (although my read of you now is far more based on our exchange since that time), but I already explained that I try to exclusively make individual reads at this stage of the game.

I still entirely disagree with your interpretation of VD's response. The last two sentences are not full-on non-sequiturs, but they're not a justification for the first. I see them as Italiano adding his own thoughts to RTP's previous post. I am not interested in discussing theory of conversation or hearing your analogies, and I'm troubled by your refusal to address the post in question directly.

Lies.

I haven’t refused to address any post.

To the extent you think I’ve missed some brilliant point, rather than shading me even further you could point it out rather than nebulously referring to it.

That's true, you haven't refused, and that's my bad for the ambiguous choice of words. I mean to say your insistence on using theory and presenting examples rather than showing me exactly what words in that post led you to interpret it the way you did. I'm not asking for you to do that now—like I've said, I have more relevant and less semantic reasons to suspect you—but I never meant to imply any active refusal on your part.

That said, these last two lines in tandem are funny to me. Nebulous references are exactly what was troubling me about your justification of that interpretation. This is the third or fourth time I have found you accusing me of doing something I have already mentioned about you, or something you are doing in the very same post. I'm not sure if I should believe that's a product of your alignment, or just your personality, but I'm keeping an eye out for it.

Also, love how slippery you’re being:
- Dutchess: “GC’s question is -clearly strawmanning-”
- GC: “no, here is what his response was and basic Q&A construction and the English language connects those ideas”
- Dutchess: “I don’t want to talk about that, which undermines my shading of your Q”

I am not sure what to call these kinds of posts other than a textbook strawman. I very explicitly disagree with your interpretations of the English language. Here you are once again using lazy schoolyard tactics to discredit my suspicions.

To cut through this back and forth about how I interpreted VD’s post differently than you: I specifically squarely asked VD a Q to clarify his response, which nullifies your entire supposed premise for why my interaction with VD is suspect. You (supposedly) have no idea what VD was going to say—for example, he could’ve said “yeah, I’m a bad scum bc I shouldn’t have let myself get quick eliminated.” Your premature jump to defend is just so suspect, and your attack-as-a-defense just underscores it.

Italiano's response doesn't matter to me. I think your question to him was scummy in a vacuum. I care less about it now because I think your pushback to my suspicion is scummier.

I don't know exactly what kind of push I was expecting to see, but if I recall correctly there was some discussion just before that time of Italiano possibly being an easy early push, and what I saw pinged me, so I wanted to nip it in the bud.

This post is screaming TMI

I don't understand what this implies if it does not implicate you as my partner?

[Duchess]

VOTE: Elements

You are blatantly ignoring me for a third time. Come explain why you gave null reads to all the players you are familiar with when you stated that they would be the easiest for you to read.

I would appreciate some support here, anyone with an available vote.

[Duchess]

I'll honour that, and maybe give the thread some room to breath for the time being.

[Duchess]

See 225, Elements.

[Duchess]

Post 98 could be viewed as you trying to defend me fmpov or at the very least interfering with a player trying to sort a slot, which is just as bad. The same can be said for 138 since it piggybacked from 98. Then 141, then in 143 you said

“Italiano himself later explained there is no correlation in post 108

which to me read like you were defending me again, using my posts to help your argument. You mentioned me again in 166, again to help solidify your argument. Then again in 167 to justify your push onto Green. For someone not defending someone it sure seems like you are.

Ok, you've linked every single post I addressed to Green Crayons up to that point here, and past the first sentence (which only recounts and does not explain, while casting some shade at me in passing, and the hypothetical language destroys any semblance of sincerity in this reply), you do nothing to address my question. Why did you link 134 (assuming that's what you meant by 138)? Why did you link 141? How am I defending you in 143 or 166, when the disagreement between interpretations of your post has absolutely nothing to do with the question of your alignment? The basis of this whole argument was a question GC asked you. Why does the mere mention of your name equate to defending you?

I'm surprised that even from your point of view

you are clinging to GC's false characterization of my push as a defense.

Why would you be surprised at someone else’s point of view? The (bolded) here is just wrong and not at all what I’m doing.

Do you disagree with GC's stance? You have hardly commented on or interacted with him or for the duration of this spat.

This early in the game, I know nothing. Nobody knows anything, except for scum.

I don’t know, you seemed pretty confident in your read, you even said so at the end of this post.

You're right, the game of mafia would be much better if everyone only gave strong pushes on modconfirmed guilties. Pussyfooting around anything less damning than that is an excellent town strategy that gets things done in a deadline-conscious and time-efficient manner, and makes excellent use of Town's strongest tool, the Daytime elimination. Thank you for humbling me by exposing my hypocrisy, and for opening my eyes to how wrong I have been in my false convictions.

If I'm not clear, this is a ridiculous attempt at shade that you should be ashamed of writing.

So if X looks to be setting up a scumpush against Y, I don't think for a damn second about what my read of Y is, because I have no reason to be so sure of anything that I would let those first impressions and assumptions of Y dictate my assessment of situation X.

My question is if I was a FoS, why would you be against a scum push onto me. Green would have been bussing me from your perspective, so what would it matter? For me it seems like you would’ve only done what you did if I was a townlean, otherwise you would have called out the theatre, (which would’ve been weak), but at least it’d be consistent.

I think it's unlikely you are both scum, and I've explained ad nauseum (including the very post you quoted here) why that doesn't affect my push at this stage. "What would it matter?" Is that a real question??? Your PoV in this section is all over the place, which does not bode well for you.

I’ve explained why it makes me feel uncomfortable both in 169 and this post. And the thought crossed my mind that it was theatre because I didn’t feel like it was a real argument and had no real footing, but then I thought that maybe the communication is just that bad between you too, either way I wanted both of you to stop talking about it. And since it involved me I had the audacity to say so.

Obviously if I'm asking you to elaborate it's because I'm not satisfied with your explanation. I asked about theatre/town vs town because you didn't mention the possibility of one of us being town and the other scum, which seems to be the angle you're pushing. You haven't said much about GC except to tell me you didn't hate his question.

Didn't you try to shade me earlier in this post for interfering with GC's sorting of you? What gives you the "audacity" to try to shut down my inquest?

I already said I didn't have an issue with Green's questioning.

So what? I'm not pushing GC for your benefit and I don't need your blessings or permission.

Well as I said since it involves me so I have the right to nip it in the bud.

This is not a town mindset.

Is there a reason you are so adamant about this?

This is a very strange question. I'm pushing a scumread, which is what you do in the game of mafia. I'll be either right or wrong in the end, but for now I'm quite confident.

Im asking under the mindset that you are defending me and I’m saying you’re push is not a good one because it’s being pushed under a false pretense.

What is that false pretense? If you're going to say "GC's question wasn't scummy", I don't want to hear it, that's not what this is about anymore, agree to disagree, etc. Actually, here's a better question for you, since it's what you're implying all the while anyway: Why is Green Crayons town?

[Duchess]

Sorry, Datisi, I must have missed 196. I haven't revisited the early game yet, but I'm sure I'll get a top-to-bottom read-through in over the next couple days. At the time I didn't have any specific ideas for where GC may have been going with that line of questioning, but it looked manipulative to me.

[Duchess]

Harumi's readslist is fine. I'm not sure what to think of them.

[Duchess]

I really like Andre's entrance and his way of looking at the game. The things he chooses to comment on don't feel the slightest bit agenda-driven.

[Duchess]

I don't like how VP pointed out the worst-looking post between the three of us (myself, GC, IVD) as if out of obligation, but chose to not take any kind of stance on the whole matter.

Sorry, I should be more patient with the Submit button when giving post hoc reactions like this.

[Duchess]

Lotus, do you have a read on Elements?

[Duchess]

I don't think I noticed that bit at the end of 124, that's a good find.

[Duchess]

RTP, what do you think of Harumi's readslist? And are you able to share what your towntell was about earlier?

[Duchess]

If you read his ISO carefully, Italiano has been going out of his way to not directly call anyone scum this entire game.

[Duchess]

RTP why is Dunnstral town?

[Duchess]

RTP why is Dunnstral town?

why are you asking me this?

You said he, Italiano, and Elements were town in 376, but you haven't said anything else about him that I can recall.

[Duchess]

I still need to start another readthrough from the top which I'm hoping to have some time for tomorrow. Italiano defusing the pressure he was getting on both fronts in 377 didn't look when I first saw it like something that couldn't have come from town having an epiphany, but now with 454 in mind I don't like the progression from that to now defeatism, and it's made me realize how beneficial a full readthrough will be. Elements gave a satisfactory reason for ignoring me, which I believe, and I'm willing to call them town for now, but with the knowledge of that reaction test I do want to take another final look there as well. I'm not feeling in a very good headspace to be doing a lot of reading or new analysis tonight unfortunately, but there are a few posts I never got around to submitting last night addressing the last few pages I'll try and finish.

[Duchess]

GC also felt a bit townie, but the aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious.

Makes you suspicious of what exactly?

hot take but the top 3 wagons here are TvTvT

I think the likelihood they are all town seems quite low actually.

Italiano is opportunistic enough to just be bad scum here, but maybe elements has some thoughts to add on that since he caught him before.

Dunn's answers sound like they are coming from a vitamin salesman. "You will FEEEL younger, I swear."

Elements has been pretty absent, but I felt town there early.

"Absent" is an extremely generous way of describing Elements's thread activity at the time. Were you aware they were dodging my direct questions while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines? There is substance in Elements's absence that you didn't touch on here at all.

I don't like the way you've approached RTP in this post. Rather than caring to understand how they've come to those conclusions, you show up to throw a little one-liner grease on the fire for each wagon and then drop it. What's your current read of RTP?

[Duchess]

I like Datisi for town. He saw a lot of the same things I saw in Italiano's quotewall, but his thoughts in 412 are clearly his own. Datisi said he digs my response to Italiano and that he felt similarly, but he didn't just defer to my reasoning when prompted. Scum in his position where he has already laid the foundation for piggybacking on my 306 probably just takes that easy crutch. Besides that, the thought processes he outlines there feel real, and I like a lot of the conclusions he comes to, particularly when he says Italiano is "probably not scum with whoever unvoted duchess prior to his unvote."

[Duchess]

I ask because I want a response, not necessarily an answer.

What does this mean?

It means when a Town player asks a question, the most important takeaway is probably not the substance of the answer itself, but whatever can be determined from its context, tone, timing, consistency with other posts, word choice, omission of information, etc. So I'm looking at the body of the response to my question, even if whatever topic is being answered doesn't interest me. Scum is not going to answer an incriminating question honestly so you can't afford as Town to only care about the words people say.

[Duchess]

Apologies for my absence, things got busy and I lost track of the days. I'll hopefully be able to complete my readthrough this evening as I have another long drive ahead of me as a passenger, but sadly I forgot my notebook at home.

[Duchess]

GC also felt a bit townie, but the aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious.

Makes you suspicious of what exactly?

hot take but the top 3 wagons here are TvTvT

I think the likelihood they are all town seems quite low actually.

Italiano is opportunistic enough to just be bad scum here, but maybe elements has some thoughts to add on that since he caught him before.

Dunn's answers sound like they are coming from a vitamin salesman. "You will FEEEL younger, I swear."

Elements has been pretty absent, but I felt town there early.

"Absent" is an extremely generous way of describing Elements's thread activity at the time. Were you aware they were dodging my direct questions while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines? There is substance in Elements's absence that you didn't touch on here at all.

I don't like the way you've approached RTP in this post. Rather than caring to understand how they've come to those conclusions, you show up to throw a little one-liner grease on the fire for each wagon and then drop it. What's your current read of RTP?

Re: GC - over aggression is way more likely to be a scum trait, imo. Scum are fake scum hunting, so will often push points past an obvious conclusion because that would mean the scum would then have to come up with an entirely new angle to push. That is work when you are scum. Town is way more relaxed because those lines of inquiry emerge naturally as a result of having no actual clue what is true and what is false.

That, of course, doesn't mean town can't be aggressive. I'm just looking at authenticity vs. manufactured outrage.

Re: "dodging" your questions and elements - I don't know what you want me to say. You think I should be hyped up about some interaction you're having with Elements? I don't remember reading anything of substance there, but maybe I skimmed it or it seemed boring to me. We're other players picking up on this? Or you think there is a reason I, in particular, should have noticed this?

My current read of RTP is lean town. I'm trying to recalibrate to the change in style by Koba. They are a very good player, and I tend to not assign concrete reads early in a game anyhow because I'm often wrong and need to stay flexible until I have a good working theory of the game. I try to especially stay flexible on players who are very good.

You didn't answer my question. You have mentioned the Duchess/GC/Italiano debacle several times but haven't provided any conclusions, up to this point. Why did you say "aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious"?

My point is you made the assumption that Elements's lack of activity was merely being an "absence" when it was clearly evasion (something to which they themself have admitted), which tells me you haven't exactly been paying attention to the slot in a way that town looking for answers might be. If Elements was not enough on your radar for you to notice the blatant question-dodging and thread-fleeing, why did you choose to comment about them here at all? I find it harder to trust that the statements you make are true and genuine.

This answer doesn't address my concerns about your interaction with RTP. If you think it will be more difficult to read them than other players, or if you're giving special attention to your read of that slot, why didn't you engage further on that point if your reads were so opposite? Did you not care to understand how (or why, if scum) RTP came to those conclusions?

[Duchess]

The thread length has doubled since last I played, so you'll all have to bear with me. I didn't anticipate such a busy weekend, but I'm hoping to be re-established and fully caught up over the course of this week. I'm still working on a thorough readthrough from the top as well, but I will say 20 pages was a lot easier to commit to than 40.

[Duchess]

GC also felt a bit townie, but the aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious.

Makes you suspicious of what exactly?

hot take but the top 3 wagons here are TvTvT

I think the likelihood they are all town seems quite low actually.

Italiano is opportunistic enough to just be bad scum here, but maybe elements has some thoughts to add on that since he caught him before.

Dunn's answers sound like they are coming from a vitamin salesman. "You will FEEEL younger, I swear."

Elements has been pretty absent, but I felt town there early.

"Absent" is an extremely generous way of describing Elements's thread activity at the time. Were you aware they were dodging my direct questions while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines? There is substance in Elements's absence that you didn't touch on here at all.

I don't like the way you've approached RTP in this post. Rather than caring to understand how they've come to those conclusions, you show up to throw a little one-liner grease on the fire for each wagon and then drop it. What's your current read of RTP?

Re: GC - over aggression is way more likely to be a scum trait, imo. Scum are fake scum hunting, so will often push points past an obvious conclusion because that would mean the scum would then have to come up with an entirely new angle to push. That is work when you are scum. Town is way more relaxed because those lines of inquiry emerge naturally as a result of having no actual clue what is true and what is false.

That, of course, doesn't mean town can't be aggressive. I'm just looking at authenticity vs. manufactured outrage.

Re: "dodging" your questions and elements - I don't know what you want me to say. You think I should be hyped up about some interaction you're having with Elements? I don't remember reading anything of substance there, but maybe I skimmed it or it seemed boring to me. We're other players picking up on this? Or you think there is a reason I, in particular, should have noticed this?

My current read of RTP is lean town. I'm trying to recalibrate to the change in style by Koba. They are a very good player, and I tend to not assign concrete reads early in a game anyhow because I'm often wrong and need to stay flexible until I have a good working theory of the game. I try to especially stay flexible on players who are very good.

You didn't answer my question. You have mentioned the Duchess/GC/Italiano debacle several times but haven't provided any conclusions, up to this point. Why did you say "aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious"?

My point is you made the assumption that Elements's lack of activity was merely being an "absence" when it was clearly evasion (something to which they themself have admitted), which tells me you haven't exactly been paying attention to the slot in a way that town looking for answers might be. If Elements was not enough on your radar for you to notice the blatant question-dodging and thread-fleeing, why did you choose to comment about them here at all? I find it harder to trust that the statements you make are true and genuine.

This answer doesn't address my concerns about your interaction with RTP. If you think it will be more difficult to read them than other players, or if you're giving special attention to your read of that slot, why didn't you engage further on that point if your reads were so opposite? Did you not care to understand how (or why, if scum) RTP came to those conclusions?

I did answer your question about aggression. it's in the post you quoted.

I really can't even follow whatever you are trying to say about Elements. I've read this like 10 times and it is incoherent. Like, you think I should have characterized Elements as "evasive" but instead I chose to use the word "absent." I don't think him being absent from the thread is a positive thing. This feels like you're having a semantics argument and I really don't understand the point or why you think that makes me scummy -- or whatever you're trying to say.

re: why didn't I engage further with RTP's "hot take" - I don't know. I guess I didn't find it that interesting or revealing about their alignment. Felt like them throwing out a comment to gather opinions, and I gave mine. It's not like it was some line of inquiry I started that I was super interested in.

No, you gave me a theory-talk about over aggression being a scum trait more often than not. I asked you what the aggression

on both sides

makes you suspicious of, or else why you worded it like that.

"Absent" implies absolutely nothing except that they were not posting. This could be lurking, real life issues, whatever. But there was never any ambiguity about their absence. They fled when I caught them online and addressed them directly after already ignoring 2 of my questions in a row and drawing the ire of my vote, all while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines. Elements has admitted to deliberately ignoring me. I voiced a great deal of frustration about it. If you're willing to throw out a completely uninformed comment like that, then I cannot trust any other stances you take, minor as it may be. From the rest of your posting, though, and the way you approached RTP in that one post, I would much sooner believe that an unsubstantiated claim like that comes from scum trying to shake things up rather than town who simply missed 100% of the context around another slot and still chose to comment on it anyway.

Unless, Duchess, you're trying to say I'm scum buddies with Elements...in which case, what evidence do you have without a flip?

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't like the preemptive defensiveness here one bit.

[Duchess]

"Absent" implies absolutely nothing except that they were not posting. This could be lurking, real life issues, whatever. But there was never any ambiguity about their absence. They fled when I caught them online and addressed them directly after already ignoring 2 of my questions in a row and drawing the ire of my vote, all while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines. Elements has admitted to deliberately ignoring me. I voiced a great deal of frustration about it. If you're willing to throw out a completely uninformed comment like that, then I cannot trust any other stances you take, minor as it may be. From the rest of your posting, though, and the way you approached RTP in that one post, I would much sooner believe that an unsubstantiated claim like that comes from scum trying to shake things up rather than town who simply missed 100% of the context around another slot and still chose to comment on it anyway.

I honestly don't remember you "catching" elements lurking or whatever. I'll be real with you though: you write a lot of words to say very little, so it's possible I skimmed some bullshit from you that looked boring. My bad.

If you'd like to reiterate your elements case, I'm listening.

What's your goal in discrediting my play here? I dare you to find a single other player in this game who thinks I have said "very little". Sure I'm not concise but to say I haven't done anything is a big dirty fucking lie.

Since you still haven't answered me, I'm going to have to dig up every time you've mentioned my fight with GC to show how consistently you have sat on that fence all game. I'm chalking this straight up as a refusal to answer, by the way, because last time you claimed to have already answered when I clearly wasn't satisfied with that answer, and now you've just entirely cropped my post. I'm disappointed, I didn't think you would be the type of scum player to start dodging questions under an ounce of pressure.

See 225, Elements.

You're saying this post is where you "caught" elements lurking?

Let me make something clear: you are the one putting emphasis on the "caught". I said I caught them online like how you catch the last half of your favourite movie on Showtime, or when you tell a friend you'll catch 'em later. For some reason you are latching onto that detail and running a mile with it, making it out like I claimed to have caught Al Capone.

I voiced a great deal of frustration about it.

What other posts did you make that you were expressing frustration?

I continued to try to directly engage Elements and eventually tried to rally for pressure votes. There is only so much you can do on an online forum to get someone's attention. I didn't have any sort of big angry emotional post or anything because I was trying to get them to respond, not scare them out of the thread. But it was extremely frustrating to me in the moment.

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't like the preemptive defensiveness here one bit.

Boo hoo.

I'm trying to figure out a reason why town!duchess would make such a wonky and pointless argument.

I'm not sure what you think I'm saying here, but I'm calling you scum, not saying you've hurt my feelings.

If you're not scum, you shouldn't have to resort to arbitrarily discrediting my push to prove it. Answer my questions or eat rope.

UNVOTE: Elements

VOTE: VP Baltar

[Duchess]

I thought of a way to make this real easy for you, VP.

GC also felt a bit townie, but the aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious.

Makes you suspicious of what exactly?

Let me be more to-the-point. Are you saying you're suspicious of us both being scum? If that's what this means then that's the answer to my question, and I don't understand your aversion to having that on record in your ISO. Otherwise I have no idea what you're getting at and I need an explanation.

[Duchess]

Since you still haven't answered me, I'm going to have to dig up every time you've mentioned my fight with GC to show how consistently you have sat on that fence all game. I'm chalking this straight up as a refusal to answer, by the way, because last time you claimed to have already answered when I clearly wasn't satisfied with that answer, and now you've just entirely cropped my post. I'm disappointed, I didn't think you would be the type of scum player to start dodging questions under an ounce of pressure.

As promised, I present-

Spoiler: Fence-Sitting for Weak Scum, Or The Art of Outsourcing Your Reads and Opinions to Townies,

GC town

Go on

As in, why specifically is GC town here, and do you think Duchess is scum?

acknowledges fault imo

Can you point me to what specifically pinged that for you?

He isn't being cagey about his reads in that post. He is using a metaphor to explain his viewpoint

those were 2 separate points.
you just assumed they were one and the same.

Then explain specifically where he is being cagey about his reads. I don't see it and need an explanation

Weirdly urgent energy here, and he completely dips out after this and never comes back to it.

Bring the smoke then, a vote puts about as much pressure on me as the bottom of a puddle.

Are you usually this combative as town? Or is this game pissing you off?

You call that combative?

As a reformed toxic player, I'm sure you wouldn't understand casual combativeness.

Yeah, I think Duchess had a bit of a bad faith response to GC

VP, where did I respond in bad faith to GC?

You've called his posting strawmanning and loaded questions variously, which seems combative when you could just answer the questions.

You also seem to be telling RTP to bring it. Your overall demeanor seems aggressive. Just curious if that 'fight me' attitude is common to your town play.

This is the first opinion of his own VP shares on the matter, which is based on a false premise (that I was dodging questions, when they were in fact addressed to someone else) and is an easy buzzword ("bad faith") for scum to throw at any emotionally charge town response.

Duchess is just Town here, no?

could be.

who is scum?

This entire interaction is weird. I spent a good amount of time just trying to understand what is being said. It feels very in the weeds, and that doesn't necessarily feel pro-town. The problem is all three are kind of pushing weedy stuff at points, so I have no fucking clue who could be scum if there is scum.

@andres - what are your thoughts on IVD?

Hey VPB. I’ll ISO there and let you know. I’ll say though that as I was reading I got a decently okay vibe from them. Like I put them as a Town Lean and moved on.

I'm mostly thinking how IVD is interacting with the GC/Duchess fight.

Maybe if you see IVD as town, that sways your thoughts on who is scum there?

In fairness, I've not played with scum andres, but his indecisiveness around the GC-Duchess spat vibes town with me. The way he portrayed his feelings on it defuses the situation slightly since he didn't come to a hard conclusion. He also logically explained why he thought it was TvS rather than SvS. Reminded me of town andres I've seen in the past.

Noted that you think indecisiveness around the GC-Duchess spat should be townread.

GC also felt a bit townie, but the aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious.

Leaving every door and window open, further exemplified by his outright refusal to elaborate on this statement.

Why are GC and RTP town?

RTP, you still think Duchess is most likely scum here?

Can you hit me with the cliff notes case?

I'm becoming increasingly confident that Italiano is scum

Not the craziest thing I've heard

Re: GC - over aggression is way more likely to be a scum trait, imo. Scum are fake scum hunting, so will often push points past an obvious conclusion because that would mean the scum would then have to come up with an entirely new angle to push. That is work when you are scum. Town is way more relaxed because those lines of inquiry emerge naturally as a result of having no actual clue what is true and what is false.

That, of course, doesn't mean town can't be aggressive. I'm just looking at authenticity vs. manufactured outrage.

Duchess seems to have quietly drifted into the background since the fight with GC.

I don't think GC is really scummy, so yes, your analysis doesn't look great.

Finally an official stance on GC, albeit one rife with dampening words. This is a safe side to take at this point between the two of us, because it's clear not a lot of people are scumreading GC, and I hadn't been in the thread for a while. Note too how GC eventually shows up low on his townleans and I remain null, both with extremely mutable justifications ("probably due for an iso reread of GC to make sure I'm not biased" and "still not settled on whether [Duchess's] aggression with GC was legit or fabricated").

I didn't get super scum vibes out of his fight with duchess. I can't say he has done a lot memorable since then, but I could say that about a lot of people (ahem, harumi).

All this being said, if you have a legit case on GC, let's here it when you have a chance.

More in-depth ISO to come at some point—I saw a lot that piqued my interest in there—but for now I'm off to bed. Off the top of my head, there's his fickle read of Andres that feels all kinds of manipulative, the one instance of Testa-shade was terrible and completely unsubstantiated, and there was a line of questioning aimed at his position on Italiano's readslist that reeked of bad faith. All of this on top of what's in the spoiler and what I've already pointed out, and I'm feeling quite good about where my vote is.

[Duchess]

I guess I'll quickly dump what I have in tabs before I turn in.

RTP has this utterly confident attitude like "of course I am town it would be absurd for you to question that". This is most obviously illustrated by their audacity when it comes to ignoring questions they don't feel like answering, laying these little "traps", and withholding information that they don't want to give out. This comes from a self assured town conviction, as if they don't give a shit if they do something scummy, they aren't going to be scumread because they are obviously town.

Also, they are very clearly trying to solve the game with their questioning and lines of reasoning. I'm confident that RTP is town.

I think I agree with this read, and I definitely like Lotus's thought process.

I’m really meh on VPB and I can’t say that I care that my stock is falling in their eyes. But I like VPB as a player so that’s also one I’m trying to think through a bit more.

Is it bad that I'm sensing a potential pocket/manipulation strategy from andres? Might just be me though.

And who do you think I’m trying to pocket exactly? Because if I was Scum, and I’m looking at the landscape, I would be trying to pocket those that have thrown Town Reads my way (say those that felt positively after my first real entrance), and perhaps appeasing those that know me best (excluding Koba who I know for instance is most suspicious of stuff like that). I don’t need to pocket you Harumi I’m sorry to say, particularly since you’re gathering some votes and don’t have a strong presence in the game yet.
If you’re going to throw stuff my way, I would like for you to think through what the Scum motivation is. Because right now all I’m seeing is paranoia, but not a whole lot of sense.

I like both of these posts, Andre clearly has a good head on his shoulders for this game, and his point of view seems townie here from what I can gather.